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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Dear friend of the show, Don Was has had

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Speaker 1: a remarkable career, moving between different corners of the music world.

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Speaker 1: In the nineteen eighties, he fronted the Eclectic band Was

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Speaker 1: mixing funk, rock and pop in unexpected ways. As a producer,

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Speaker 1: who's helped shape landmark albums for artists like the b

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Speaker 1: fifty two's and Bonnie Raid, her album Luck of the Draw,

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Speaker 1: which she produced, featured the hit something to Talk About

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Speaker 1: and marked a major turning point in her career. Over

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Speaker 1: the years, he's worked with Bob Dylan and become a

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Speaker 1: regular producer for the Rolling Stones. For the past decade,

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Speaker 1: don has led Blue Note Records as its president, bringing

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Speaker 1: new energy to the story jazz label, and he's also

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Speaker 1: just released his own album, Groove in the Face of Adversity,

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Speaker 1: a tribute to Detroit and the music that came out

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Speaker 1: of the city where he grew up. On today's episode,

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Speaker 1: I talked to Don Was about his wide ranging career

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Speaker 1: and why his new album is his first onunder his name.

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Speaker 1: He also talks about how working with musical heroes like

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Speaker 1: Willie Nelson, Leonard Cohen, and Brian Wilson in the nineties

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Speaker 1: initially shut down his own creative ambitions and reflects on

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Speaker 1: his time at Blue Note, and I was experienced as

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Speaker 1: a toying artist himself. Now allows him to relate to

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Speaker 1: the label's roster in a completely different way. This is

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Speaker 1: broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with

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Speaker 1: Don was, Well, you have a new record out, like

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Speaker 1: the first, your first record in a long time.

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Speaker 2: It's the first record I ever put my name on

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Speaker 2: as an artist. Even it was not was I was

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Speaker 2: hiding behind the band.

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Speaker 1: Why now?

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Speaker 2: I don't know why? You know why not? It's a

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Speaker 2: series of I wish I could tell you there was

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Speaker 2: a master plan to it, but it was a series

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Speaker 2: of random events. Terrence Blanchard's a good buddy of mine,

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Speaker 2: and he was curating a series at the for the

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Speaker 2: Detroit Symphony Orchestra. It's called the Paradise Valley Jazz, Paradise

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Speaker 2: Valley being the black area of the city where all

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Speaker 2: the great music happened before urban renewal. And so he

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Speaker 2: asked if I wanted to play a night. He asked

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Speaker 2: me two years before the show, and I said, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 2: six months before. Jesus, I don't have a band. I

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Speaker 2: don't have songs? What am I going to do? So

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Speaker 2: I started thinking back to what I tell artists in

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Speaker 2: the similar situation, but I suggest to them, which really

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Speaker 2: stems from an experience I had in the early nineties

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Speaker 2: where in very rapid succession I got to work with

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Speaker 2: my greatest heroes Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Brian Wilson, Willie Nelson,

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Speaker 2: Chris Christofferson, and Macon Keith. And a byproduct of that

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Speaker 2: was that it gave me writer's block. For about five years,

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Speaker 2: I just every time I sat down at the piano,

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Speaker 2: I'd go for ten seconds and think, well, what is

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Speaker 2: the point of me doing this? When Brian Wilson is

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Speaker 2: down the street and let's just let's just take him

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Speaker 2: the lyric. Right about five years into it, I was

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Speaker 2: in a studio with Willy Nelson, again lamenting the fact

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Speaker 2: that I could never be Willie Nelson, and then boom,

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Speaker 2: a voice went off and said, but Willie Nelson can

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Speaker 2: never be you. He didn't drop acid and go see

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Speaker 2: the MC five of the Grandy Ballroom, George Clinton and

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Speaker 2: the Parliaments, didn't play a sock hop at his ninth

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Speaker 2: grade school dance in in the gym, which that did happen.

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Speaker 2: The Parliament still there. They were out promoting I just

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Speaker 2: want to testify. And in those days, a legal form

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Speaker 2: of paola was the DJ at the big Top forty

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Speaker 2: stations would get paid to MC a school dance and

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Speaker 2: if you wanted to get played on a show, you'd

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Speaker 2: go and play for free and lip sync your record.

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Speaker 2: So he was he was bringing a show to the school,

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Speaker 2: but he was keeping all the bread. And that's why

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Speaker 2: you got your record play.

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Speaker 1: And the original version of that song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they were. It was a five piece vocal

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Speaker 2: group like the Temptations, but they were they were dressed

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Speaker 2: like hippies, not in tuxedos. And it was it was

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Speaker 2: synchronous with Hendrix. It wasn't before him, but you know,

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Speaker 2: you had to have that that that movement, that that

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Speaker 2: kind of fashion to dress that way. So synchronous. Uh,

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Speaker 2: there's something in the zeitgeist of R and B and

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Speaker 2: blues that created Hendrix and George Clinton and plus George

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Speaker 2: Clinton was going to see the m C five in Detroit.

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Speaker 2: He was going to see the Stooges in Detroit, and

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Speaker 2: he understood that probably wud be good to incorporate that

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Speaker 2: which is how Funkadelic comes about as more of a

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Speaker 2: rock and roll band or anything. But but then he

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Speaker 2: was just it's like a hippie doop group. It's so.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing, but you but to your point, yes, to

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Speaker 1: my point, yeah, yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Thought he didn't eat. That's not his background. So usually

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Speaker 2: in the music business, the thing that makes you different

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Speaker 2: from everybody else is considered a marketing lightmare. You know,

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Speaker 2: how do we market this? It's not just like everything

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Speaker 2: else that's out there. But I've come to view it

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Speaker 2: as your superpower. It's really the only chance you have

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Speaker 2: is to be different from everybody else and approach the

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Speaker 2: whole sensibility of your music and all the theme of

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Speaker 2: it from a unique perspective. Otherwise, what are you? What

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Speaker 2: have you got? You just copy and other people. So

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Speaker 2: when so, I've always encouraged artists I was producing to

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Speaker 2: be extremely them, And so when it came time to

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Speaker 2: put this band together, I thought, all right, well, what

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Speaker 2: are you? I'm some yob from Detroit, right, So I

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Speaker 2: called eight other musicians that I've known for a long

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Speaker 2: time and I've played with, you know throughout the years

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Speaker 2: who grew up listening to the same radio stations as

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Speaker 2: me played in the same bars, all people from Detroit,

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Speaker 2: all people who still live in Detroit, and I'm the

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Speaker 2: only one who's a part time residence in Troia. And

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Speaker 2: we got in a room together. This is just to

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Speaker 2: see we could play together, to do this Terence Blanchard thing,

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Speaker 2: And after about ten minutes, it was like, oh, hold

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Speaker 2: on a second, man, this is this is something more

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Speaker 2: than a bargain for where we really speak a common

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Speaker 2: musical language, which is kind of the sound of Detroit,

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Speaker 2: kind of growing up in Detroit. And it was clear

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Speaker 2: from the first day that we should probably do more

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Speaker 2: than the one show. So we booked a whole tour

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Speaker 2: and turned it's not turned into five or six tours.

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Speaker 2: And he'd been to Japan, went there and played a

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Speaker 2: couple of months ago. We got six weeks coming up

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Speaker 2: in January and February, and then we put on an

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Speaker 2: album and it's it's now a thing. It's it's gone

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Speaker 2: from being a one off to be in a nine

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Speaker 2: piece band with an identity based on the characters and

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Speaker 2: the band. If if one of them is sick, we

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Speaker 2: can't call us ub anymore. Now it's just like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: we just got to cancel because this is it's the

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Speaker 2: sound of these nine people from Detroit playing together.

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Speaker 1: And is the material on the is the material on

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Speaker 1: the album? Is that stuff that you guys have been

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Speaker 1: playing over the last few tours or.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been playing it. It really was kind of

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Speaker 2: some of it was haphazard, like choose from the cameo

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Speaker 2: song insane.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, come on, that was a that was incredible.

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Speaker 2: I was so surprised. Well, I was just it was

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Speaker 2: that was actually that was recorded the first day we

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Speaker 2: played it at the first rehearsal we had. We recorded.

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Speaker 2: We rehearsed at a studio called rust Belt and Detroit.

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Speaker 1: To go into make the album.

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Speaker 2: You rehearse. This was just the first day we got

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Speaker 2: together to play. There was just a room where a

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Speaker 2: comfortable and thankfully Al Sutton, who owns the joint, he

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Speaker 2: put up some mics and that version insane is from

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Speaker 2: it's maybe the second time through it or something like that,

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Speaker 2: and we just did it to see what kind of

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Speaker 2: breadth we would have stylistically, how how far, how many

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Speaker 2: directions can we move in and how how wide a

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Speaker 2: path can we curve, you know, And so that was

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Speaker 2: one end of the extreme and it just it just

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Speaker 2: felt so natural to play that, and it felt like

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Speaker 2: a lot like what the grooves from I was and

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Speaker 2: I was, so, you know, it's the eighties.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna. So the coolest thing about

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Speaker 1: the record to me is it feels very different from

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Speaker 1: Midnight Marterers, which is the first song on the album,

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Speaker 1: to take to Insane. But what I loved was like

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Speaker 1: if you listen to Insane, which is the last song

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Speaker 1: on the album, and then you just rolled into something

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Speaker 1: from the course was.

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Speaker 2: Not was album very good? Yeah? Yeah, it's almost the

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Speaker 2: same beat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like this really cool book end for

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Speaker 1: all you according music thus far.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it What was kind of cool was the

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Speaker 2: the trombone player in the band, Vincent Chandler, who's the

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Speaker 2: he's the head of the jazz studies program at Wayne

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Speaker 2: State University. He was not in was that was a

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Speaker 2: couple of guys Dave McMurray and Luis Resto are on

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Speaker 2: that wreck that outcome the Freaks that you just played

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Speaker 2: there but wasn't But he knew how we arranged horns,

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Speaker 2: and he came up with the horn line for Insane.

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Speaker 2: It was just like it was right out of there

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Speaker 2: was not was songbook, so we thought, all right, well

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Speaker 2: we can do this, and and then we worked on

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Speaker 2: a Henry Threadgill song called I Can't Wait Till I

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Speaker 2: Get Home. Kenny Barron wrote that Newbie and Lady song,

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Speaker 2: He's just a flatief recorded yeah, and then this Midnight

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Speaker 2: Marauners that they're all, yeah, there's a lot of breadth

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Speaker 2: to it, but I think it's all tied together. It's

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Speaker 2: clearly one band. Actually the record is half from live

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Speaker 2: shows and half from studio, and some you're a little

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Speaker 2: calmer in the studio. You don't have the audience giving

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Speaker 2: you this energy, and so on three of the songs

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Speaker 2: they were just better won't played them live, so we

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Speaker 2: use that version. But three of them, like Midnight Marauders,

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Speaker 2: is a good example where it's a hypnotic groove and

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Speaker 2: you don't want to get too excited. So the calm

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Speaker 2: the studio I think was beneficial. But we still set

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Speaker 2: up the same way we set up to play live,

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Speaker 2: and we didn't we didn't really overdub. Maybe some hand

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Speaker 2: claps or you know, a couple of background vocals doubled

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Speaker 2: up or something, but it was so live in the

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Speaker 2: studio or live on record, it seemed to have some

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Speaker 2: unity to it, and that's what this band sounds like. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It made me start to think too about the connection

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Speaker 1: between jazz and funk a little bit too, because I

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Speaker 1: mean listening to it and there's like a really strong

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Speaker 1: second line feel to it. You know, I don't really

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Speaker 1: ever thought it through, but to the degree that you

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Speaker 1: know zig Aboo from from the Meters, you know, like

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Speaker 1: probably grew up with that second line. New Orleans was

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Speaker 1: a big is a big ingredient funk, it seems to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well absolutely well Africa is right, so it's all

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Speaker 2: you get regional derivations of it. Yeah, But I think

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Speaker 2: that one of the things that makes you Detroit unique

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Speaker 2: is that after World War Two, people from all over

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Speaker 2: the world came there to work in the auto factories,

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Speaker 2: and they brought their cultures with them. So we had

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Speaker 2: everything when we were growing up, not just funk, not

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Speaker 2: just New Orleans, but we had polka's, you know, you

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Speaker 2: could hear every kind of music. You know. I think

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Speaker 2: it's the the largest era of American community in the country, certainly,

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Speaker 2: and so all that quarter tone stuff and which does

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Speaker 2: up in our music too. And especially in the horn lines.

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Speaker 2: I think we did a song called carrying Me Back

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Speaker 2: to Morocco, which there wasn't I was song. We started

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Speaker 2: playing it live and it's very much got that bende

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Speaker 2: kind of sound. Also it set was I was up

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Speaker 2: really well to be the backup band for Chevrahaled. We

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Speaker 2: made some you know, Chevaled, he's a Algerian rye music singer,

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Speaker 2: being chevs like being MC. It's a title means a

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Speaker 2: young woman or something like that, and it's a style

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Speaker 2: of music. I came out of Algeria and Morocco in

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Speaker 2: late eighties early nineties, and I became a fan of

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Speaker 2: it because they were sticking eight o eights and you know,

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Speaker 2: they were putting some synthesizer things in there, but it

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Speaker 2: was quartertone music and it's it's you know, if you

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Speaker 2: took the lyrics apart, it's not really like two live crew.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's pretty pretty old stuff. But it was

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Speaker 2: quite controversial in the fundamentalist country, and they came after

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Speaker 2: these guys and killed a lot of the musicians and

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Speaker 2: now had to kind of flee to France. So Chevale

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Speaker 2: was living in France and making really cool records. But

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Speaker 2: he just he ran into tremendous racism there for being Algerian. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so they didn't really play him on the radio. In fact,

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Speaker 2: they had laws about how much Arabic language content you

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Speaker 2: could have on the French radio station. See it limited

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Speaker 2: for like four hours a day. Yeah, it was crazy, man.

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Speaker 2: So the Barkley Records in the late eighties put us

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Speaker 2: together just because I was a fan, wasn't I was.

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Speaker 2: We played in Paris and I met him and we

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Speaker 2: clicked and I loved what he was doing. So he

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Speaker 2: came to La and we cut with a couple of

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Speaker 2: guys in his band and some of the guys from

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Speaker 2: Was and I was wet song called d D That

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Speaker 2: was one of the things we cut that started getting

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Speaker 2: played in Ibiza one summer when in August when everyone's

248
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Speaker 2: on holiday, when France closes down. So they came back.

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Speaker 2: That was like the song of the of the of

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Speaker 2: their vacation. So it became a really big record, and

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Speaker 2: they had to repeal the law limiting Arabic language content.

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Speaker 2: I think it probably they probably put it back, but

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Speaker 2: for a minute we changed things and it was an

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Speaker 2: Arabic language song that went to number one in France.

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Speaker 2: And I didn't know it at the time, but turns

256
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Speaker 2: out it kind of changed. It was the Sergeant Pepper

257
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Speaker 2: of the genre. Everyone heard it and because it mixed

258
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Speaker 2: American R and B and funk with the Algerian music.

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Speaker 2: But for us it made perfect sense because we grew

260
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Speaker 2: up hearing that music all the time in Detroit, so

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Speaker 2: that that's just all those things seeped in and created

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Speaker 2: a certain feel.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know that was was so cool for

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Speaker 1: that reason, man, just the breadth of things you guys

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Speaker 1: were able to just fit into, even you know, even

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Speaker 1: doing the the the Richard pryor you know, like and

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Speaker 1: it was not Jean Chandler but.

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Speaker 2: Uh Uhlan wild. Yeah, like, yeah, that's wild that we

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Speaker 2: got to make a music video with the two of them.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy. And you guys are really the perfect, you

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Speaker 1: know group for that, I would say, you know, because

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Speaker 1: you guys are like just so so eclectic and just

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Speaker 1: you know, you know.

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Speaker 2: I think people's taste runs along those lines. Genres are

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Speaker 2: good for organizing record stores. If you can find one,

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Speaker 2: It's a great way to get to what you're looking for.

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Speaker 2: It's like the Dewey decimal system in a library. But

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Speaker 2: does anyone say, well, I'm only going to listen to

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Speaker 2: I'm only going to read nine hundred series books, or

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Speaker 2: more importantly, does an author say I just wrote a

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Speaker 2: six hundred series book. I think I'll do a nine hundred.

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Speaker 2: That's not how it works, man, and that's not how

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Speaker 2: musicians play. You don't sit there and think, all right,

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Speaker 2: I think I'll throw a bluest lick in in a

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Speaker 2: couple of hours, and then after that, I'm going to

286
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Speaker 2: do this country thing that's gonna blow people's minds. You

287
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Speaker 2: never think that you're it's just well, if you do,

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Speaker 2: you're doing Some people probably do and they're doing it wrong.

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Speaker 2: Really you shouldn't. I don't recommend because I hear people.

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Speaker 1: I'm not to hear people think I want to do

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Speaker 1: a one hundred dpm song. Why are we talking this

292
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Speaker 1: way about?

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Speaker 2: And when do we start talking this way about it?

294
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Speaker 2: But I just think you play what you feel, and

295
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Speaker 2: your language is determined by what you've absorbed. So everyone

296
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Speaker 2: in our band grew up drinking this really rich cultural jambalaya.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and it's reflected and what we play.

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Speaker 1: Did did it bug people out? When you left Detroit?

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Speaker 1: They coming to La from Detroit. Was it was it

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Speaker 1: where they you know, I mean the first you listened

301
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Speaker 1: to the first hour, the first singles, and the first.

302
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Speaker 2: Album wasn't it was? Yeah, well we had We were

303
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Speaker 2: a marketing nightmare. And they made no bones about telling

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Speaker 2: us that. At one point they just couldn't figure out

305
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Speaker 2: where we If we're white guys, it should be a

306
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Speaker 2: rock and roll band, but this doesn't sound like rock

307
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Speaker 2: and roll and the singers are black, So what band?

308
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Speaker 2: What is this? How do we market this? Right? And

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Speaker 2: they sent us to a big label, to the R

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Speaker 2: and B department. That was the label we were on,

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Speaker 2: and the head R and B took us, took David

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Speaker 2: and I in his office and put on a Michael

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Speaker 2: McDonald record, and he said, this is how people do

314
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Speaker 2: R and B here. That was Warner Brothers hobbies. So

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Speaker 2: we said, well, you know, I love Michael McDonald. I

316
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Speaker 2: ended up producing Michael McDonald. He's one of my favorite

317
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Speaker 2: singers on the world. But that's not what we're doing.

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Speaker 2: And I was relieved when someone else came into the office.

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Speaker 2: It was right around the time Prince had just delivered

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Speaker 2: his Controversy album to them, and one of the promotion

321
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Speaker 2: men came into this guy's office. What are we supposed

322
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Speaker 2: to do with this shit? I thought, Okay, we're not

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Speaker 2: alone here. There's something going on. And there was actually

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Speaker 2: something going on in Detroit that fed the whole world.

325
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Speaker 2: And we've talked about Electrifier and Mojo before electrifiering Mojo

326
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Speaker 2: changed not just musical tastes in Detroit, but impacted the

327
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Speaker 2: whole world. And the weird thing is that he did

328
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Speaker 2: it mostly with Warner Brothers bands because there was a

329
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Speaker 2: great promotion man in Detroit by the name of Ted

330
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Speaker 2: Joseph who was taking Mojo these records. And Mojo understood

331
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Speaker 2: listening to craft Work, listening to talking heads, listening to

332
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Speaker 2: the B fifty two's he understood, and especially listening to Prince.

333
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Speaker 2: He was Prince's first big advocate in the United States,

334
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Speaker 2: I think, and he understood that this had broader appeal,

335
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Speaker 2: that white kids and black kids would all like this

336
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Speaker 2: as well as the Gap band, and he built this

337
00:19:35,556 --> 00:19:39,836
Speaker 2: audience that no one had ever cultivated, and it became

338
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Speaker 2: incredibly popular. You know, Africa bombarda, John Roby and Arthur Baker.

339
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Speaker 2: They did Planet Rock, which is craft work with a

340
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Speaker 2: rappin on top, and that comes from Mojo playing it.

341
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Speaker 2: The word is that Tommy Silverman was in Detroit heard

342
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Speaker 2: it and said, oh, man, do something on top of

343
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Speaker 2: craft work. Really yeah, but he made that fashionable for

344
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Speaker 2: black audiences. It made it cool to listen to this,

345
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Speaker 2: turned them onto it. Yeah. I played the ship out

346
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Speaker 2: of prints before anybody was. And then it started trickling

347
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Speaker 2: back to Warner Brothers. They weren't saying, you know, what

348
00:20:19,716 --> 00:20:22,716
Speaker 2: are we going to do with this shit? But it

349
00:20:22,756 --> 00:20:25,076
Speaker 2: didn't help to be It didn't do you any favors

350
00:20:25,116 --> 00:20:28,036
Speaker 2: to be six months ahead of your time, you know.

351
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Speaker 2: So we paid a price for it. They didn't know

352
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Speaker 2: what to do with us. We had some dance hits,

353
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Speaker 2: and then the next label said, look, we don't know

354
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Speaker 2: how to market to either fire the black singers, hire

355
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Speaker 2: some white guys and be a rock and roll band,

356
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Speaker 2: or you guys stay out of the band and let

357
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Speaker 2: the singers carry it and be a sole band. And

358
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Speaker 2: we said, but that's not what we do. Man, I'm

359
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Speaker 2: not going to but like a family, you know, we're friends.

360
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Speaker 2: I'm not going to fire an. So they put us

361
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Speaker 2: on suspension, and I thought it was like baseball. Yeah,

362
00:21:05,116 --> 00:21:07,956
Speaker 2: they put us on suspension, and I thought you'd do

363
00:21:07,996 --> 00:21:09,796
Speaker 2: your thirty days and you come back and they'll put

364
00:21:09,796 --> 00:21:12,996
Speaker 2: the record out. No, it's indefinite. Man, We're on suspension

365
00:21:13,036 --> 00:21:14,396
Speaker 2: for years. Is that what happened?

366
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Speaker 1: Is that why there was no Yeah?

367
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And now later I came to realize that what

368
00:21:19,476 --> 00:21:22,796
Speaker 2: they were really saying was get someone to buy out

369
00:21:22,836 --> 00:21:26,476
Speaker 2: your contract, you know, don't don't make us look like schmucks,

370
00:21:26,716 --> 00:21:30,956
Speaker 2: you know. So, but it was it was a long,

371
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Speaker 2: hard two and a half years where we couldn't do anything.

372
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Speaker 2: We couldn't play, and we couldn't release a record. But

373
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Speaker 2: that's how I became a producer. That's how, that's how

374
00:21:40,236 --> 00:21:44,636
Speaker 2: it happened. Yeah, because it's actually a couple of guys.

375
00:21:44,676 --> 00:21:48,276
Speaker 2: Gary Gersh was an A and R guy at EMI

376
00:21:48,396 --> 00:21:50,956
Speaker 2: America Records, and he took a look at this thing.

377
00:21:50,996 --> 00:21:54,116
Speaker 2: Everyone paid attention because I don't even think David Geffen

378
00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:56,076
Speaker 2: knew we were on the label, you know, or was

379
00:21:56,116 --> 00:21:59,276
Speaker 2: paying attention to what we were doing, or was even

380
00:21:59,756 --> 00:22:04,116
Speaker 2: a part of saying putting us on suspension. But people

381
00:22:04,116 --> 00:22:06,476
Speaker 2: paid attention to what David Geffen did, So why did

382
00:22:06,516 --> 00:22:08,716
Speaker 2: he sign these guys and wait a minute, they're just

383
00:22:08,836 --> 00:22:11,516
Speaker 2: right and produce, so they could do that for anybody.

384
00:22:11,836 --> 00:22:13,916
Speaker 2: So Gary Gersh was the first guy to hire me

385
00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:17,956
Speaker 2: to produce a record in the United States. Came to

386
00:22:18,036 --> 00:22:22,116
Speaker 2: Detroit and Steve Jensen, who ended up managing the B

387
00:22:22,236 --> 00:22:24,956
Speaker 2: fifty twos and a bunch of other bands, he was

388
00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:27,116
Speaker 2: an agent at the time and he became our first

389
00:22:27,156 --> 00:22:31,156
Speaker 2: agent because he understood. He came to Detroit to and

390
00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:34,036
Speaker 2: figured that out. So in that period of time I

391
00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:35,436
Speaker 2: started producing records.

392
00:22:36,076 --> 00:22:38,396
Speaker 1: So what was your first job as a producer.

393
00:22:38,916 --> 00:22:41,316
Speaker 2: Well, the first job is actually it was an English

394
00:22:41,396 --> 00:22:46,196
Speaker 2: band called Floyd Joy that had we didn't have We

395
00:22:46,276 --> 00:22:49,676
Speaker 2: had like regional hits in the UK. I don't even

396
00:22:49,676 --> 00:22:51,876
Speaker 2: know if it was ended up being released in this country.

397
00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:56,996
Speaker 2: They were signed to Virgin Records and they liked the

398
00:22:57,036 --> 00:22:59,556
Speaker 2: first was and that was album. They were from Sheffield

399
00:22:59,596 --> 00:23:03,716
Speaker 2: and there's a link between Sheffield and Detroit industrial cities,

400
00:23:03,876 --> 00:23:07,516
Speaker 2: you know, and they related to it, and so they

401
00:23:07,676 --> 00:23:10,436
Speaker 2: sought us out in the United United States and we

402
00:23:10,516 --> 00:23:13,636
Speaker 2: had a chance meeting in New York City and I

403
00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:16,316
Speaker 2: ended up producing their record. They came to Detroit and

404
00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:20,676
Speaker 2: recorded with our guys and there was a whole procession

405
00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:27,596
Speaker 2: after that of British artists wanting to get motownized. Produced

406
00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:32,716
Speaker 2: telling Terry and did some stuff with boy George, his

407
00:23:32,716 --> 00:23:36,596
Speaker 2: friend Marilyn. I got a record with him, uh, just

408
00:23:36,876 --> 00:23:39,156
Speaker 2: a chain of stuff. It became fashionable, but we did

409
00:23:39,276 --> 00:23:42,916
Speaker 2: have big hits. And then Gary hired me to produce

410
00:23:42,996 --> 00:23:46,436
Speaker 2: a singer named David Lastly, great songwriter. He wrote you

411
00:23:46,556 --> 00:23:53,116
Speaker 2: Bring Me Joy and Big Bus Gags Records. Jill Lowdown, Yeah, maybe, yeah,

412
00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:55,076
Speaker 2: it was one of those Yeah, I can't remember your

413
00:23:55,076 --> 00:24:00,276
Speaker 2: song was. So I produced his his album and we

414
00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:03,076
Speaker 2: were after the races did producing?

415
00:24:03,956 --> 00:24:08,356
Speaker 1: Was it fulfilling as fulfilling as being an artist is creating?

416
00:24:09,276 --> 00:24:11,516
Speaker 2: It's it's kind of it's the same thing. Man. You know,

417
00:24:11,556 --> 00:24:15,876
Speaker 2: you're you're trying to make music that gets under people's skin,

418
00:24:16,076 --> 00:24:19,356
Speaker 2: makes them feel something, helps them make sense out of life,

419
00:24:20,116 --> 00:24:24,316
Speaker 2: helps them make sense out of confusing and chaotic times

420
00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:27,796
Speaker 2: for which there is no good answer. How do you

421
00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:30,956
Speaker 2: how do you live? I mean that's a real question,

422
00:24:31,156 --> 00:24:35,796
Speaker 2: and especially today, man, how do you live with the

423
00:24:35,956 --> 00:24:40,316
Speaker 2: stress that's caused by what's going on in the world.

424
00:24:41,356 --> 00:24:43,756
Speaker 2: That's hard. Music helps you with that. So the goal

425
00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:47,796
Speaker 2: is to you want. You want to create something that

426
00:24:47,876 --> 00:24:53,596
Speaker 2: communicates to the inner emotional life in a way that

427
00:24:53,956 --> 00:24:57,676
Speaker 2: conversational language fails to do. That's the goal of art.

428
00:24:58,876 --> 00:25:02,036
Speaker 2: We can only convey so much just talking like this.

429
00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:06,836
Speaker 2: I can't really describe my feelings, but I can play them.

430
00:25:07,516 --> 00:25:12,236
Speaker 2: I can turn life into notes. And you want to

431
00:25:12,276 --> 00:25:17,556
Speaker 2: do that in a way that is not only fulfilling

432
00:25:17,636 --> 00:25:24,276
Speaker 2: for you, but it's meaningful to the listener. That's the goal, right.

433
00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:27,516
Speaker 2: The goal is not to see how many notes you

434
00:25:27,516 --> 00:25:30,036
Speaker 2: can squeeze into a bar. That's you know, a lot

435
00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:32,796
Speaker 2: of people do that, and I admire the practice it

436
00:25:32,836 --> 00:25:35,076
Speaker 2: takes to do that, but I'm not impressed with it

437
00:25:35,236 --> 00:25:39,996
Speaker 2: as a as a means of communication. It's acrobatics. It's

438
00:25:40,076 --> 00:25:42,956
Speaker 2: like wow, but yeah, man, how do you do for

439
00:25:43,236 --> 00:25:48,876
Speaker 2: somersaults in a road? It's great? It doesn't make you

440
00:25:48,916 --> 00:25:51,876
Speaker 2: feel anything. Yeah, So you want to make people feel something.

441
00:25:52,236 --> 00:25:55,596
Speaker 2: So whether you're producing or playing, or really even running

442
00:25:55,596 --> 00:26:02,196
Speaker 2: a record company, it doesn't really change. That's that's still

443
00:26:02,236 --> 00:26:05,476
Speaker 2: what you're trying to do is be a part of

444
00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:10,036
Speaker 2: feeding the listener's emotional life with something valuable.

445
00:26:10,436 --> 00:26:14,236
Speaker 1: So, so across all the different roles you've played in music.

446
00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:15,836
Speaker 1: That's that's the common denominen it.

447
00:26:15,996 --> 00:26:19,436
Speaker 2: That's what It's all one thing to me. People say,

448
00:26:19,436 --> 00:26:22,396
Speaker 2: how do you run a record company and and go

449
00:26:22,436 --> 00:26:26,156
Speaker 2: out and tour at the same time. It's not that hard.

450
00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:29,396
Speaker 2: That's part of the same thing.

451
00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:31,836
Speaker 1: Is there are there any logistical challenges that?

452
00:26:32,836 --> 00:26:37,316
Speaker 2: No, not not in these times, you know, thankfully, you

453
00:26:37,356 --> 00:26:40,916
Speaker 2: can actually be more productive sometimes just getting on a

454
00:26:40,996 --> 00:26:44,756
Speaker 2: zoom call and getting off and uh, you can stay

455
00:26:44,756 --> 00:26:49,436
Speaker 2: in touch. I have no problem doing the blue note

456
00:26:49,516 --> 00:26:51,836
Speaker 2: job from a tour bus. I think I do a

457
00:26:51,836 --> 00:26:56,676
Speaker 2: better job. Plus, I'm out there every night playing and

458
00:26:56,716 --> 00:26:59,396
Speaker 2: going through what the artists are going through, so we

459
00:26:59,436 --> 00:27:03,956
Speaker 2: can relate in a little different way. You know, I

460
00:27:04,116 --> 00:27:07,356
Speaker 2: used to phase a moment ago. They're turning life into notes.

461
00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:10,916
Speaker 2: That's you have to bleed to do that. You go,

462
00:27:11,076 --> 00:27:15,116
Speaker 2: it's a thing that you go through. And when someone's

463
00:27:15,156 --> 00:27:19,076
Speaker 2: in the middle of doing that making a record, you

464
00:27:19,076 --> 00:27:21,556
Speaker 2: you know, you can't call them up and start saying,

465
00:27:21,556 --> 00:27:25,156
Speaker 2: I need the credits by Wednesday or you're past the deadline.

466
00:27:25,756 --> 00:27:28,036
Speaker 2: We're going to take your record out of the It

467
00:27:28,156 --> 00:27:31,836
Speaker 2: just doesn't even register, you know. Some Yeah, some labels

468
00:27:31,836 --> 00:27:35,436
Speaker 2: do that. Yeah, No, they just don't understand the artistic temperament.

469
00:27:35,996 --> 00:27:37,676
Speaker 2: So I think it's good to someone of the company

470
00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:39,956
Speaker 2: who's actually out there playing every night doing the same

471
00:27:39,996 --> 00:27:42,396
Speaker 2: thing I can. I understand what they're going through. Not

472
00:27:42,436 --> 00:27:44,676
Speaker 2: only do I understand what they're going through, but they're

473
00:27:44,716 --> 00:27:47,796
Speaker 2: all way better than I am. Everybody on Blue Notice,

474
00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:51,596
Speaker 2: way better than I am as a musician. So I'm

475
00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:55,436
Speaker 2: in awe of what these characters do all the time,

476
00:27:55,556 --> 00:27:58,596
Speaker 2: and and I treat them differently as such. You know,

477
00:27:58,836 --> 00:28:01,116
Speaker 2: I understand the magnitude of what they're doing.

478
00:28:01,476 --> 00:28:05,476
Speaker 1: Earlier, you said, you know, a big reason why you

479
00:28:05,476 --> 00:28:10,316
Speaker 1: stop playing, you know, in the early nineties is you're

480
00:28:10,316 --> 00:28:14,276
Speaker 1: producing people like Dylan and you're working with Brian Wilson,

481
00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:17,516
Speaker 1: and so there's sort of a feeling of, well, why

482
00:28:17,676 --> 00:28:21,516
Speaker 1: why would I do anything? Having now crossed back, having

483
00:28:21,556 --> 00:28:24,516
Speaker 1: now gotten rid of that notion, kind of tossed that aside.

484
00:28:24,556 --> 00:28:27,596
Speaker 1: Does that feel? Was that like a burden for I mean,

485
00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:29,876
Speaker 1: I mean that does not feel good For a while.

486
00:28:30,796 --> 00:28:33,676
Speaker 2: Well, like I said, it wasn't that big a shift.

487
00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:38,756
Speaker 2: I was still making music and participating, and I was

488
00:28:38,836 --> 00:28:43,076
Speaker 2: doing it with my heroes man the best people ever. Yeah,

489
00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:48,196
Speaker 2: So I learned a tremendous amount, and it was incredibly rewarding.

490
00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:52,116
Speaker 2: You know, you don't have to be playing. The biggest

491
00:28:52,156 --> 00:28:56,076
Speaker 2: difference to me was the difference between actually playing live

492
00:28:56,236 --> 00:29:00,716
Speaker 2: and interacting with the audience in the in the moment,

493
00:29:01,116 --> 00:29:03,716
Speaker 2: as opposed to being in a bubble in the studio

494
00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:07,316
Speaker 2: and the audience may not hear it for another twelve

495
00:29:07,316 --> 00:29:10,516
Speaker 2: months and you won't see them. When they do hear it.

496
00:29:10,596 --> 00:29:12,476
Speaker 2: They're going to be home or in their cars, and

497
00:29:13,876 --> 00:29:16,196
Speaker 2: you'll get a check and, if you're lucky, a trophy,

498
00:29:17,396 --> 00:29:21,716
Speaker 2: but you won't actually get that interactive experience. When I

499
00:29:21,756 --> 00:29:25,756
Speaker 2: started playing with Bob Weir in twenty eighteen, he called

500
00:29:25,796 --> 00:29:27,876
Speaker 2: me up and wanted to start a trio called the

501
00:29:27,956 --> 00:29:30,716
Speaker 2: Wolf Brothers. He had the whole thing and vision, well,

502
00:29:30,716 --> 00:29:35,716
Speaker 2: the grateful dead audience. Man, there's such an engaged, expressive audience.

503
00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:39,116
Speaker 2: It blew my mind to actually go out there and

504
00:29:39,156 --> 00:29:43,996
Speaker 2: play those songs for them and see their faces and

505
00:29:44,036 --> 00:29:48,036
Speaker 2: feel the energy and they're so engaged. You play notes

506
00:29:48,796 --> 00:29:52,076
Speaker 2: and you know they're being received in that instant, and

507
00:29:52,156 --> 00:29:55,956
Speaker 2: you get energy back that actually impacts the next notes

508
00:29:56,036 --> 00:30:02,676
Speaker 2: you choose. So it's a cooperative venture into collective euphoria

509
00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:07,236
Speaker 2: kind and when you get that cycle going, which happens

510
00:30:07,316 --> 00:30:09,556
Speaker 2: not in every song, but it will happen a couple

511
00:30:09,596 --> 00:30:13,276
Speaker 2: times a night, you blow the roof off the motherfucker.

512
00:30:13,396 --> 00:30:18,196
Speaker 2: It's really it changes, you change the space you're in,

513
00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:22,356
Speaker 2: and it's exhilarating. It's the greatest feeling to do that

514
00:30:22,516 --> 00:30:26,716
Speaker 2: with a band that's listening to each other and speaking

515
00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:31,116
Speaker 2: the same language and being generous and trading things, and

516
00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:35,556
Speaker 2: then taking that same kind of cooperation to the audience

517
00:30:35,996 --> 00:30:39,916
Speaker 2: and having them be part of it. I actually don't

518
00:30:39,956 --> 00:30:45,276
Speaker 2: know a feeling in life that's better than that. So

519
00:30:45,476 --> 00:30:48,116
Speaker 2: you just become addictive to it, addicted to it. You

520
00:30:48,156 --> 00:30:50,116
Speaker 2: ever talked to Bob Weird about that a whole the time?

521
00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:54,316
Speaker 2: Why do you think he's out there playing for sixty

522
00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:57,836
Speaker 2: seventy years? Yeah, every time I read about him or

523
00:30:58,116 --> 00:31:00,796
Speaker 2: or the Rolling Stones, people saying don't they have enough money?

524
00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:03,476
Speaker 2: You know, when are they going to retire? You don't

525
00:31:03,596 --> 00:31:07,076
Speaker 2: retire from that. And it's got nothing to do with money,

526
00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:11,396
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure micking key where if you said

527
00:31:11,996 --> 00:31:13,796
Speaker 2: just go out there, it's going to you got to

528
00:31:13,836 --> 00:31:17,956
Speaker 2: pa us ten thousand dollars tonight, meaning you pay Bob.

529
00:31:17,996 --> 00:31:20,476
Speaker 2: We're pays for the privilege of pay, and he pay

530
00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:24,196
Speaker 2: the ten thousand dollars. Stones would pay the entry fee

531
00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:28,996
Speaker 2: because it's the experience of getting connected to all those people.

532
00:31:29,356 --> 00:31:36,356
Speaker 2: That's what we crave. Man. We're tribal, communal people. We

533
00:31:36,476 --> 00:31:41,716
Speaker 2: really have not evolved that much from living in caves

534
00:31:41,836 --> 00:31:47,356
Speaker 2: and groups of thirty forty klansmen, right, and we craved this.

535
00:31:47,516 --> 00:31:49,396
Speaker 2: But look at how we're living here in La Man.

536
00:31:49,436 --> 00:31:52,276
Speaker 2: Everyone's locked in their cars. I don't even know my

537
00:31:52,316 --> 00:31:54,316
Speaker 2: next door neighbors and I've lived next door to them

538
00:31:54,316 --> 00:31:56,476
Speaker 2: for ten years. One time he came over with a

539
00:31:56,556 --> 00:31:58,636
Speaker 2: dog that told me to tell my son to stop

540
00:31:58,676 --> 00:32:04,916
Speaker 2: playing drums loud encounter with the man. Can you imagine that?

541
00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:08,396
Speaker 2: But that's how crazy, you know, life has become. So

542
00:32:08,476 --> 00:32:13,676
Speaker 2: we crave that kind of communal situation, and what better

543
00:32:13,716 --> 00:32:16,196
Speaker 2: way to do it than in a musical concert.

544
00:32:16,396 --> 00:32:18,156
Speaker 1: It's so heartening to hear man. I mean, you know,

545
00:32:18,236 --> 00:32:20,636
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I don't know. I don't think we've ever

546
00:32:20,636 --> 00:32:21,836
Speaker 1: talked about it. I want to bother you about it.

547
00:32:21,836 --> 00:32:23,836
Speaker 1: I am like the world's biggest stones Man. I love

548
00:32:23,916 --> 00:32:26,396
Speaker 1: I love the stones Man. Like every era of the Stones,

549
00:32:28,396 --> 00:32:35,116
Speaker 1: And you know, the rap on Mick amongst the general

550
00:32:35,156 --> 00:32:37,916
Speaker 1: public is he he's like the business. You know, he's

551
00:32:37,916 --> 00:32:40,236
Speaker 1: business minded, and it's probably he's in it for but

552
00:32:40,636 --> 00:32:42,276
Speaker 1: to hear from you that, and it's like, you know

553
00:32:42,316 --> 00:32:44,716
Speaker 1: he he He as much as anyone else, as much

554
00:32:44,716 --> 00:32:48,636
Speaker 1: as Keith or anyone else, is still in love with music.

555
00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:52,436
Speaker 2: They're all savvy businessmen. But that's not why they do it.

556
00:32:53,396 --> 00:32:56,756
Speaker 2: Uh And anyone who if you think that about Mick,

557
00:32:57,236 --> 00:33:00,996
Speaker 2: listen to his harmonica playing. You know, you can't play

558
00:33:01,396 --> 00:33:06,156
Speaker 2: like that if if you're not a deeply soulful musician.

559
00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:11,796
Speaker 2: He's one of the great frontmen of all time, which

560
00:33:11,996 --> 00:33:17,476
Speaker 2: is nothing to be minimized. You know, Like, motherfucker can

561
00:33:17,516 --> 00:33:20,636
Speaker 2: get up on a stage in front of eighty thousand

562
00:33:20,716 --> 00:33:23,916
Speaker 2: people and make every one of those people think he's

563
00:33:23,956 --> 00:33:27,036
Speaker 2: talking one on one to them, even if they're thousands

564
00:33:27,076 --> 00:33:30,076
Speaker 2: of feet away from him. I went to see him

565
00:33:30,276 --> 00:33:36,316
Speaker 2: when they were at Sofi Stadium the last Yeah, and

566
00:33:36,836 --> 00:33:39,196
Speaker 2: you know, I know him pretty well. I spent twenty

567
00:33:39,476 --> 00:33:44,876
Speaker 2: five at least years with him, right, and he came out,

568
00:33:45,356 --> 00:33:48,636
Speaker 2: he came walking down that long ramp and I go, wow,

569
00:33:48,716 --> 00:33:51,276
Speaker 2: it's that guy. Ready. He came to visit us in

570
00:33:51,436 --> 00:33:54,596
Speaker 2: LA and I just turned into such a fan, you know,

571
00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:58,076
Speaker 2: because he can't help it. He just makes you feel

572
00:33:58,156 --> 00:34:02,676
Speaker 2: like he's singing to you in a stadium. Man, that's incredible,

573
00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:06,316
Speaker 2: and he's got this great gift. I don't even know

574
00:34:06,356 --> 00:34:11,476
Speaker 2: how to describe it exactly. Listen to Humbling Dice and

575
00:34:11,556 --> 00:34:14,996
Speaker 2: listen to the mix. Almost nobody in the right mind

576
00:34:15,036 --> 00:34:19,876
Speaker 2: would mix a vocal that low, so low in, But

577
00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:23,276
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter because he is so charismatic. He comes

578
00:34:23,436 --> 00:34:26,596
Speaker 2: leaping out of the speakers anyway. You can't you can't

579
00:34:26,596 --> 00:34:31,356
Speaker 2: bury him. That's and you can't be that guy without

580
00:34:31,476 --> 00:34:37,116
Speaker 2: having tremendous soul and tremendous powers of communication. So no

581
00:34:37,196 --> 00:34:41,316
Speaker 2: one should ever think that he's just some guy out

582
00:34:41,356 --> 00:34:44,556
Speaker 2: to make a buck. I don't think he minds getting paid.

583
00:34:46,596 --> 00:34:49,196
Speaker 2: Why he's doing it. I guarantee you and none of

584
00:34:49,196 --> 00:34:49,556
Speaker 2: them are.

585
00:34:51,036 --> 00:34:53,596
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Don Was after the break.

586
00:34:57,796 --> 00:34:58,836
Speaker 1: He was come to think of me too. When I

587
00:34:58,916 --> 00:35:01,796
Speaker 1: was I was, I talked to Raphael Sadek one time

588
00:35:02,116 --> 00:35:04,316
Speaker 1: and I asked him about the Grammy performance they did.

589
00:35:04,556 --> 00:35:06,636
Speaker 1: I guess he said, you actually you upset that up

590
00:35:06,676 --> 00:35:08,556
Speaker 1: a bit, Yeah, but he was saying like during the rehearsals,

591
00:35:08,556 --> 00:35:09,996
Speaker 1: like they went to they did the song that they

592
00:35:09,996 --> 00:35:11,196
Speaker 1: were gonna do, but then Mick was just like, hey,

593
00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:13,316
Speaker 1: let's just do some blues numbers, and the mers just

594
00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:15,396
Speaker 1: kept going and they just ran through blues.

595
00:35:15,716 --> 00:35:15,876
Speaker 2: Yeah.

596
00:35:16,436 --> 00:35:19,076
Speaker 1: And then by the way, Mick speaking of like his charisma,

597
00:35:19,156 --> 00:35:23,716
Speaker 1: like it's one of the great like Grammy performances ever,

598
00:35:23,796 --> 00:35:25,756
Speaker 1: Like he killed that stage.

599
00:35:25,756 --> 00:35:29,236
Speaker 2: It was just incredible killed that. He was absolutely incredible.

600
00:35:29,636 --> 00:35:33,516
Speaker 2: He just he just showed everybody what a real.

601
00:35:34,636 --> 00:35:39,076
Speaker 1: King insane and you're seeing everyone, Everyone's there, Beyonce's loving

602
00:35:39,356 --> 00:35:41,156
Speaker 1: everyone is like I wrapped it. You know.

603
00:35:41,556 --> 00:35:47,436
Speaker 2: It was an electrifying moment and a masterclass what being

604
00:35:47,476 --> 00:35:51,556
Speaker 2: a front person means. He made it was at Staples Center,

605
00:35:52,436 --> 00:35:56,196
Speaker 2: and he made it feel like he was in like

606
00:35:56,236 --> 00:35:59,036
Speaker 2: a little nightclub. He made it so intimate and he

607
00:35:59,396 --> 00:36:03,316
Speaker 2: just filled the room. Uh. You know, there was a

608
00:36:03,356 --> 00:36:06,196
Speaker 2: moment when we were making a record called Bridges to Babylon.

609
00:36:06,276 --> 00:36:08,436
Speaker 2: We're kind of like right across the street from here.

610
00:36:08,476 --> 00:36:11,156
Speaker 2: We're what was then called Ocean Way, it's now East

611
00:36:11,196 --> 00:36:14,276
Speaker 2: West Studios Studio one, which is a big room, and

612
00:36:14,316 --> 00:36:17,396
Speaker 2: we were on the dinner break, and I walked into

613
00:36:17,436 --> 00:36:19,436
Speaker 2: the room to talk to the guys and it's just

614
00:36:19,516 --> 00:36:23,436
Speaker 2: ncking Keith and Charlie standing there. And I walked in

615
00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:26,116
Speaker 2: and the first thing that grabbed me was that with

616
00:36:26,236 --> 00:36:29,876
Speaker 2: these three guys in the room, this gigantic room, and

617
00:36:29,876 --> 00:36:34,516
Speaker 2: they're not big guys, the room was full their personalities,

618
00:36:34,596 --> 00:36:39,796
Speaker 2: their essence transcended the skin by so much. They were like,

619
00:36:39,836 --> 00:36:43,756
Speaker 2: their personalities are the size of like the blow up

620
00:36:43,796 --> 00:36:48,196
Speaker 2: dolls that they had on the Voodoo the remember it

621
00:36:48,316 --> 00:36:52,036
Speaker 2: was like five stories high, right, or maybe it's the

622
00:36:52,076 --> 00:36:56,036
Speaker 2: Steel Wheels tour then, But that's who that's who they are.

623
00:36:56,116 --> 00:37:03,556
Speaker 2: They're their enormous musical personalities, enormous personalities. They can contain

624
00:37:03,596 --> 00:37:06,756
Speaker 2: it and walk through the world, but they unleashed this thing.

625
00:37:07,876 --> 00:37:10,956
Speaker 2: And you know, exact same thing with Keith Man. What

626
00:37:11,076 --> 00:37:16,116
Speaker 2: a soulful player. Man. There's nobody like him. Man. Anyone

627
00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:19,756
Speaker 2: who thinks he's sloppy is out of their fucking minds. Man,

628
00:37:20,036 --> 00:37:23,756
Speaker 2: He's he's his technique. It's so crisp man. The attack

629
00:37:24,356 --> 00:37:27,476
Speaker 2: where he lays into the rhythm and where he releases

630
00:37:27,556 --> 00:37:30,036
Speaker 2: the notes, that's the other thing. It's a it's a

631
00:37:30,076 --> 00:37:33,316
Speaker 2: lost art releasing the notes, don't don't just let it

632
00:37:33,556 --> 00:37:36,796
Speaker 2: sustain into as fine if you're in the ramones and

633
00:37:36,876 --> 00:37:39,796
Speaker 2: that's that's your sign. But man, but to be to

634
00:37:39,876 --> 00:37:43,396
Speaker 2: get a groove going, you have to let go of

635
00:37:43,436 --> 00:37:45,836
Speaker 2: the note and let some air come in there so

636
00:37:45,876 --> 00:37:49,756
Speaker 2: you can feel the syncopation of the rhythm. Yeah, and

637
00:37:50,236 --> 00:37:54,356
Speaker 2: it requires tremendous practice and technique, and he's got that's

638
00:37:54,476 --> 00:38:00,236
Speaker 2: He's a badass guitar player. He completely redefined the connection

639
00:38:00,356 --> 00:38:03,916
Speaker 2: between rhythm guitar and lead guitar in rock and roll.

640
00:38:05,476 --> 00:38:08,596
Speaker 2: He's come up with some of the most incredible licks

641
00:38:08,636 --> 00:38:11,676
Speaker 2: of all time. And I think he's an incredible singer

642
00:38:11,876 --> 00:38:18,556
Speaker 2: and writer and just an absolutely brilliant and soulful cat man.

643
00:38:18,636 --> 00:38:21,836
Speaker 2: He's it's such a privilege to have been able to

644
00:38:21,956 --> 00:38:25,476
Speaker 2: know him and play with music with him and be

645
00:38:25,596 --> 00:38:29,276
Speaker 2: part of it watching him create a record incredible. Charlie

646
00:38:29,316 --> 00:38:31,316
Speaker 2: watts Man, nobody played like that.

647
00:38:31,756 --> 00:38:34,436
Speaker 1: Yeah, people discount Charlie's but if you're a fan, I

648
00:38:34,436 --> 00:38:36,556
Speaker 1: feel like you Charlie's contribution is.

649
00:38:36,596 --> 00:38:38,716
Speaker 2: I mean, you wouldn't have had that band. That band

650
00:38:38,716 --> 00:38:43,356
Speaker 2: would not have achieved that level of you know, it's

651
00:38:43,356 --> 00:38:47,516
Speaker 2: more than popularity important not have penetrated the souls of

652
00:38:47,916 --> 00:38:51,676
Speaker 2: millions and millions and millions of people if they wouldn't ahead.

653
00:38:51,836 --> 00:38:55,236
Speaker 2: Charlie Watts playing, I used to think about a graphic

654
00:38:55,596 --> 00:38:59,076
Speaker 2: depiction of a pocket, you know, trying as a bass player,

655
00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:01,276
Speaker 2: you try to land in the pocket of the drummer

656
00:39:02,516 --> 00:39:04,756
Speaker 2: so you can feel it. But the second you start

657
00:39:04,756 --> 00:39:07,516
Speaker 2: playing with someone you can feel it. And Charlie Watts,

658
00:39:07,876 --> 00:39:10,316
Speaker 2: let me put it this way. If you're listening to, say,

659
00:39:10,316 --> 00:39:14,596
Speaker 2: a drum machine where the beat is quantized, it's it's

660
00:39:14,676 --> 00:39:17,116
Speaker 2: like if you're the bass player and you want to

661
00:39:17,236 --> 00:39:21,316
Speaker 2: land in the pocket of that thing, It's like getting

662
00:39:21,396 --> 00:39:24,476
Speaker 2: up on a diving board and diving into like a

663
00:39:24,516 --> 00:39:27,196
Speaker 2: flute of champagne. You got it. You got this narrow

664
00:39:27,236 --> 00:39:31,436
Speaker 2: little space in which you can hit it and express

665
00:39:31,716 --> 00:39:35,716
Speaker 2: your own sense of the rhythm. Charlie Watts was like

666
00:39:35,796 --> 00:39:41,316
Speaker 2: this big, beautiful, gigantic swimming pool that you could land. Man.

667
00:39:41,476 --> 00:39:46,116
Speaker 2: Because from where his high hat hit, which would sometimes

668
00:39:46,116 --> 00:39:49,516
Speaker 2: be a little ahead, his snare be a little bit back,

669
00:39:50,196 --> 00:39:52,836
Speaker 2: and the bass drum was somewhere in between. You could

670
00:39:52,916 --> 00:39:57,116
Speaker 2: if you graft it out, and you could actually see

671
00:39:57,396 --> 00:40:01,556
Speaker 2: how the beautiful a pocket he carved and and they

672
00:40:01,996 --> 00:40:04,796
Speaker 2: and Keith can land in that pocket. Bill Wyman could

673
00:40:04,876 --> 00:40:07,116
Speaker 2: land in that pocket, and it could sing in that pocket,

674
00:40:07,396 --> 00:40:11,916
Speaker 2: and it was wide enough to cover the disparity between

675
00:40:12,716 --> 00:40:17,076
Speaker 2: mix rhythm, rhythmic feel and Keith, because Keith feels it

676
00:40:17,156 --> 00:40:22,356
Speaker 2: behind more and mix mix more patuated and attacking. That's

677
00:40:22,516 --> 00:40:24,556
Speaker 2: when people think the Stones are sloppy. I think they

678
00:40:24,556 --> 00:40:29,116
Speaker 2: don't understand that sometimes the riff is also the melody

679
00:40:29,236 --> 00:40:35,676
Speaker 2: start me up. So Mick is going to sing it

680
00:40:35,676 --> 00:40:37,476
Speaker 2: in a different place than Keith's going to feel it

681
00:40:37,516 --> 00:40:40,916
Speaker 2: because they feel the rhythm in two different places. So yeah,

682
00:40:40,956 --> 00:40:43,396
Speaker 2: all right, so they're not It's not perfect, and you

683
00:40:43,436 --> 00:40:47,316
Speaker 2: don't slide mix vocal overr to land where Keith guitared

684
00:40:47,356 --> 00:40:51,476
Speaker 2: ad or vice versa. But that disparity is where the

685
00:40:51,556 --> 00:40:54,916
Speaker 2: character and the soul lives, you.

686
00:40:54,876 --> 00:40:59,996
Speaker 1: Know, capturing that in the studio was that ever challenging

687
00:41:00,156 --> 00:41:03,916
Speaker 1: or was it always? Was it always just an you know.

688
00:41:04,156 --> 00:41:06,356
Speaker 2: Well they can always sound like the Stones, you know,

689
00:41:06,596 --> 00:41:09,956
Speaker 2: I personally have never been to a Stone show that

690
00:41:10,036 --> 00:41:14,516
Speaker 2: I thought was a bad show. Some nights were transcendental,

691
00:41:14,596 --> 00:41:18,796
Speaker 2: but they always play well just in general for anybody

692
00:41:18,876 --> 00:41:21,196
Speaker 2: not just the rolling stones. The biggest enemy you have

693
00:41:21,276 --> 00:41:26,196
Speaker 2: in the studio is good. Being good sucks. Any motherfucker

694
00:41:26,316 --> 00:41:31,916
Speaker 2: can be good. That's that's your enemy, because it can

695
00:41:31,956 --> 00:41:34,716
Speaker 2: fool you. Good can trick you into thinking it's great.

696
00:41:35,316 --> 00:41:37,836
Speaker 2: And if you can't be great, don't, don't go to

697
00:41:37,876 --> 00:41:40,876
Speaker 2: the studio. Man, You know, if that's not your intention.

698
00:41:41,516 --> 00:41:44,236
Speaker 2: I mean, so, yeah, we've all made records that aren't

699
00:41:44,276 --> 00:41:50,076
Speaker 2: necessarily great. You can't. You can't always control it, but

700
00:41:50,516 --> 00:41:53,316
Speaker 2: you at least strive for it. So it would just

701
00:41:53,356 --> 00:41:56,716
Speaker 2: be the take when everybody sat in the pocket just

702
00:41:56,836 --> 00:42:01,276
Speaker 2: right and you feel some magic. There's a thing about

703
00:42:01,316 --> 00:42:07,796
Speaker 2: making records. You're waiting for lightning to strike. The great

704
00:42:08,156 --> 00:42:13,796
Speaker 2: ideas don't originate inside you. They come from somewhere else,

705
00:42:13,996 --> 00:42:15,916
Speaker 2: and they'd come through you. I'll take you back to

706
00:42:15,956 --> 00:42:18,196
Speaker 2: where I first started thinking along these lines, which was

707
00:42:18,956 --> 00:42:21,036
Speaker 2: when I produced the first time I worked with Bob

708
00:42:21,116 --> 00:42:25,156
Speaker 2: Dylan nineteen eighty nine. I said, how come you can

709
00:42:25,196 --> 00:42:28,796
Speaker 2: write Gates of Eden and I can't, And he said, well,

710
00:42:28,956 --> 00:42:33,116
Speaker 2: look it makes you feel any better, he said, I

711
00:42:33,156 --> 00:42:37,236
Speaker 2: remember moving the pencil over the page, but I didn't

712
00:42:37,236 --> 00:42:39,636
Speaker 2: write that song. It came from somewhere and I just

713
00:42:39,716 --> 00:42:42,476
Speaker 2: I was the scribe. I wrote it down and I

714
00:42:42,516 --> 00:42:46,076
Speaker 2: thought at the time, I thought, oh, isn't that sweet.

715
00:42:46,116 --> 00:42:50,956
Speaker 2: He's telling me this to make me feel better. Then

716
00:42:52,116 --> 00:42:56,436
Speaker 2: I started it was a I'd see it everywhere everyone

717
00:42:56,476 --> 00:43:00,476
Speaker 2: I talked to who I thought had achieved this level

718
00:43:00,556 --> 00:43:06,676
Speaker 2: of extra terrestrial genius. You know, Yeah, Brian Wilson, the

719
00:43:06,716 --> 00:43:09,036
Speaker 2: same thing. He'll just talk about it. He'll talk you

720
00:43:09,276 --> 00:43:11,996
Speaker 2: talked about it coming from God. Keith Richards, if he's

721
00:43:12,036 --> 00:43:13,796
Speaker 2: in the studio, he doesn't say, hey, wait, I got

722
00:43:13,796 --> 00:43:18,716
Speaker 2: an idea, he said, hold it incoming, incoming. And eventually

723
00:43:18,796 --> 00:43:21,316
Speaker 2: I realized that the great artists are the ones who

724
00:43:21,436 --> 00:43:25,156
Speaker 2: just have really great antennae and can pick this up.

725
00:43:25,516 --> 00:43:29,836
Speaker 2: But the thing is, and this is the curse of

726
00:43:29,876 --> 00:43:33,436
Speaker 2: for these guys who are that great, they don't control

727
00:43:33,996 --> 00:43:37,036
Speaker 2: when it comes. So it's like surfing a little bit.

728
00:43:37,116 --> 00:43:39,356
Speaker 2: You know, you can you can learn how to stay

729
00:43:39,396 --> 00:43:41,476
Speaker 2: up on the board, how to get a good ride,

730
00:43:42,116 --> 00:43:46,876
Speaker 2: but you don't control the waves surf. That's it. Well,

731
00:43:46,916 --> 00:43:49,156
Speaker 2: that's it's the same thing. Man. You know, you ride

732
00:43:49,156 --> 00:43:52,196
Speaker 2: the wave that you get, or or you wait till

733
00:43:52,236 --> 00:43:54,556
Speaker 2: one comes in, but you don't control when it comes in.

734
00:43:55,076 --> 00:43:57,636
Speaker 2: So that's that's kind of hard for people, man, to

735
00:43:57,796 --> 00:44:01,636
Speaker 2: know that the thing that everyone's expected from you is

736
00:44:02,836 --> 00:44:07,716
Speaker 2: it's not something that you can just spew out at random. Man,

737
00:44:07,876 --> 00:44:11,156
Speaker 2: you gotta go fish and then wait for it.

738
00:44:10,236 --> 00:44:13,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think so? Because there are people like

739
00:44:15,236 --> 00:44:17,596
Speaker 1: Dylan's one, you know people, I mean, I think there

740
00:44:17,596 --> 00:44:22,676
Speaker 1: are there are people who only want Dylan narrowly to

741
00:44:22,756 --> 00:44:25,476
Speaker 1: be you know, free will and Bob Dylan. Maybe or

742
00:44:25,636 --> 00:44:27,196
Speaker 1: times there are a change in Bob Dylan. But I

743
00:44:27,236 --> 00:44:30,916
Speaker 1: happen to think all Dylan is great to varying degrees.

744
00:44:30,956 --> 00:44:35,356
Speaker 1: Every album is there's incredible, amazing stuff. I think Neil

745
00:44:35,396 --> 00:44:37,156
Speaker 1: Young is the same, like he seems to always be.

746
00:44:38,436 --> 00:44:41,316
Speaker 1: So what is like or what is it? The tenna?

747
00:44:41,676 --> 00:44:41,996
Speaker 2: Is it?

748
00:44:42,036 --> 00:44:43,956
Speaker 1: Is? It? Is it a sensitivity thing?

749
00:44:44,116 --> 00:44:48,156
Speaker 2: Is it? Maybe you're chosen? I don't know. It depends

750
00:44:48,156 --> 00:44:52,556
Speaker 2: how ordered you think destiny is okay, and I don't

751
00:44:52,636 --> 00:44:54,716
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know the answer. The way

752
00:44:54,756 --> 00:44:59,076
Speaker 2: I used to make sense out of it metaphorically because

753
00:44:59,316 --> 00:45:04,036
Speaker 2: I pictured this this ether way up there, and and

754
00:45:04,196 --> 00:45:07,076
Speaker 2: in the ether, all the really great ideas, all the

755
00:45:07,316 --> 00:45:10,956
Speaker 2: times they are a change in all the every grain

756
00:45:11,076 --> 00:45:15,556
Speaker 2: of sands. They all float at the top, and only

757
00:45:15,596 --> 00:45:18,876
Speaker 2: a few people got tentative tentacles that are long enough

758
00:45:18,956 --> 00:45:23,756
Speaker 2: to reach the top and pull those ideas down. And

759
00:45:23,836 --> 00:45:26,036
Speaker 2: I don't know why that is. You know, I became

760
00:45:26,596 --> 00:45:28,836
Speaker 2: aware of something when I worked for the first time

761
00:45:28,876 --> 00:45:33,836
Speaker 2: with Garth Brooks in the studio. He I liked him.

762
00:45:33,876 --> 00:45:39,396
Speaker 2: I understood that he had tremendous communicative powers, but I

763
00:45:39,396 --> 00:45:42,156
Speaker 2: didn't fully get it till I heard him coming through

764
00:45:42,156 --> 00:45:46,636
Speaker 2: the speakers singing. Because you know, sometimes you put the

765
00:45:46,636 --> 00:45:49,396
Speaker 2: speakers on the edge of the board, they're behind the thing.

766
00:45:49,596 --> 00:45:51,956
Speaker 2: And I viewed the lot of the speaker line. It's

767
00:45:51,996 --> 00:45:56,476
Speaker 2: like the fifty yard line on a football game, right,

768
00:45:56,796 --> 00:46:00,036
Speaker 2: Who's who's going to carry the ball across? You know,

769
00:46:00,196 --> 00:46:04,116
Speaker 2: get into the fifty yard line, you don't score a touchdown, no,

770
00:46:03,996 --> 00:46:06,516
Speaker 2: no glory. And making it to the fifty you got

771
00:46:06,516 --> 00:46:11,036
Speaker 2: to you gotta get down there. Whose voice jumps out

772
00:46:11,076 --> 00:46:15,076
Speaker 2: of the speaker line and crosses into into your head? Right,

773
00:46:15,876 --> 00:46:19,276
Speaker 2: And Garth Brooks, when he opened his mouth and started singing,

774
00:46:20,116 --> 00:46:22,596
Speaker 2: his voice leapt out of the speakers so far that

775
00:46:22,716 --> 00:46:26,476
Speaker 2: it was almost like it was behind me. Wow, And

776
00:46:26,516 --> 00:46:30,516
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, now I understand. Now I get it

777
00:46:30,556 --> 00:46:35,556
Speaker 2: and mixed. Got that Aretha Franklin's got that Gladys Knight,

778
00:46:35,636 --> 00:46:39,516
Speaker 2: It's got that Bonnie Raid It's got that just a

779
00:46:39,516 --> 00:46:40,396
Speaker 2: handful of folks.

780
00:46:40,436 --> 00:46:43,476
Speaker 1: Man Frank Sinatra, you see Frank Sinatra.

781
00:46:43,836 --> 00:46:47,956
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I got to play Frank Sinatra's last gig.

782
00:46:48,956 --> 00:46:53,316
Speaker 2: It was I was working with Willie over it right

783
00:46:53,356 --> 00:46:56,716
Speaker 2: over there Oceanway, and he said, I gotta leave early

784
00:46:56,796 --> 00:47:00,236
Speaker 2: today and somewhere you go. He said, I'm going to

785
00:47:00,276 --> 00:47:03,836
Speaker 2: Palm Springs. I'm opening for Frank Sinatra at his Voice's

786
00:47:03,956 --> 00:47:08,396
Speaker 2: celebrity pro am golf tournament banquet. And it's Frank Sinatra's

787
00:47:08,476 --> 00:47:12,436
Speaker 2: last gig. Everybody knows it except for Frank. I said,

788
00:47:12,476 --> 00:47:17,036
Speaker 2: what you got to take me? Kenny Aronoff was playing

789
00:47:17,116 --> 00:47:21,876
Speaker 2: drums on it, so Willy Willy was just going to

790
00:47:21,916 --> 00:47:24,236
Speaker 2: do it with Mickey Raphael, but he took Kenny and

791
00:47:25,116 --> 00:47:28,476
Speaker 2: his heart player. Yeah yeah, Mickey, you know like his

792
00:47:29,316 --> 00:47:33,316
Speaker 2: he's almost inextricable from the sound of Willie. He's So

793
00:47:33,356 --> 00:47:35,716
Speaker 2: the four of us drove up there and we played

794
00:47:35,756 --> 00:47:40,116
Speaker 2: our set, and then I knew Frank Junior, who was

795
00:47:40,156 --> 00:47:40,996
Speaker 2: this conductor.

796
00:47:41,356 --> 00:47:42,556
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you put, you put.

797
00:47:42,596 --> 00:47:48,556
Speaker 2: Frank was coming to me and I loved him. He

798
00:47:48,636 --> 00:47:50,596
Speaker 2: was a really, really good guy and I felt for

799
00:47:50,676 --> 00:47:53,676
Speaker 2: him a lot, because that's a that's a tough road.

800
00:47:53,716 --> 00:47:56,196
Speaker 2: He chose man to be a singer and be Frank

801
00:47:56,196 --> 00:48:00,996
Speaker 2: Sinatra junior. You know, it's tough, tough to win like that.

802
00:48:02,236 --> 00:48:05,556
Speaker 2: But he was conducted for his dad, and so he said, here,

803
00:48:05,796 --> 00:48:07,676
Speaker 2: you guys, sit right here. And it wasn't a ballroom.

804
00:48:07,716 --> 00:48:09,996
Speaker 2: It wasn't like a theater and a reader and it

805
00:48:10,116 --> 00:48:13,156
Speaker 2: was a hotel ballroom at a Marriott. Then there was

806
00:48:13,196 --> 00:48:17,196
Speaker 2: a banquet for golfers who were in anything, and so

807
00:48:17,236 --> 00:48:19,676
Speaker 2: we sat five feet from Frank Sinatra on the side

808
00:48:19,716 --> 00:48:21,956
Speaker 2: of the stage, you know, like it was like were

809
00:48:21,956 --> 00:48:23,916
Speaker 2: a wedding band would play, but he had a big band.

810
00:48:24,156 --> 00:48:27,636
Speaker 2: And it was the last time he played. And Willie

811
00:48:27,676 --> 00:48:32,196
Speaker 2: introduced me to him at the thing, and I saw

812
00:48:32,276 --> 00:48:35,276
Speaker 2: him play a number of times. And man, you talk

813
00:48:35,316 --> 00:48:44,636
Speaker 2: about charisma and character and peckable technique and brilliant phrasing,

814
00:48:45,436 --> 00:48:47,516
Speaker 2: you know, he had it all. We just did a

815
00:48:48,476 --> 00:48:52,316
Speaker 2: blue note. We have an audiophile series of records. It's

816
00:48:52,356 --> 00:48:56,596
Speaker 2: called the Tone Poets Series and is they're produced by

817
00:48:56,636 --> 00:48:58,636
Speaker 2: a guy named Joe Harley and mastered by a guy

818
00:48:58,716 --> 00:49:02,516
Speaker 2: named Kevin Gray, who were just brilliant and they just

819
00:49:02,996 --> 00:49:07,116
Speaker 2: know how to maximize the thing. And we'd expanded into

820
00:49:07,436 --> 00:49:10,236
Speaker 2: the Capitol Vaults and we just did WE Small Hours.

821
00:49:11,116 --> 00:49:13,396
Speaker 2: And when you put on this tone poet version of

822
00:49:13,436 --> 00:49:16,836
Speaker 2: WE Small Hours and play it on your turntable, it

823
00:49:16,916 --> 00:49:20,716
Speaker 2: sounds like Frank Sinatra is like six inches from your face,

824
00:49:20,756 --> 00:49:23,916
Speaker 2: singing right to you. It's so intimate and you can

825
00:49:24,036 --> 00:49:27,276
Speaker 2: really hear every nuance in his singing. And even though

826
00:49:27,396 --> 00:49:30,516
Speaker 2: I feel WE Small Hours was cut in fifty three,

827
00:49:30,876 --> 00:49:33,716
Speaker 2: I think he got better, you know, over you know.

828
00:49:33,956 --> 00:49:35,956
Speaker 1: In fifty three he's like late also by the way,

829
00:49:35,956 --> 00:49:37,676
Speaker 1: also for Sinatra, and you.

830
00:49:37,636 --> 00:49:41,916
Speaker 2: Know, but he's still even then. Man, he was there

831
00:49:41,956 --> 00:49:44,276
Speaker 2: was no one could touch him. No one could touch him.

832
00:49:44,356 --> 00:49:47,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, we brought up Garth Brooks and you did you

833
00:49:47,116 --> 00:49:49,556
Speaker 1: did it. Also did a round maybe a little earlier,

834
00:49:49,556 --> 00:49:51,636
Speaker 1: he did a great Travis Tritt record, Thank You.

835
00:49:51,756 --> 00:49:51,996
Speaker 2: Yeah.

836
00:49:52,236 --> 00:49:53,436
Speaker 1: It was a cool record.

837
00:49:53,516 --> 00:49:56,236
Speaker 2: Man. Well it was weird because he he called me

838
00:49:56,796 --> 00:50:01,836
Speaker 2: because he wanted to make a more traditional, rootsy country album.

839
00:50:01,916 --> 00:50:04,796
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't want to do the whatever slip

840
00:50:04,476 --> 00:50:07,396
Speaker 2: the country was at the time, and he felt he

841
00:50:07,436 --> 00:50:12,956
Speaker 2: had to leave Nashville to do it, so we got

842
00:50:13,036 --> 00:50:16,956
Speaker 2: it in l A and uh No, I thought. I

843
00:50:16,996 --> 00:50:19,636
Speaker 2: thought he was an incredible singer. Man, I'd like to

844
00:50:19,636 --> 00:50:21,836
Speaker 2: travels a lot. We had a good time making that record,

845
00:50:22,396 --> 00:50:26,276
Speaker 2: and I thought he was a really soulful cat. We did,

846
00:50:27,316 --> 00:50:30,956
Speaker 2: we did, I met him. I did an album called Rhythm,

847
00:50:30,996 --> 00:50:34,156
Speaker 2: Country and Blues in the nineties. There was it was

848
00:50:34,276 --> 00:50:40,116
Speaker 2: duets between country artists and R and B artists. Really

849
00:50:40,596 --> 00:50:45,356
Speaker 2: meant to show that, oh man, despite whatever differences you

850
00:50:45,356 --> 00:50:49,716
Speaker 2: want to imagine, everyone's got the exact same emotions and

851
00:50:50,036 --> 00:50:54,196
Speaker 2: there are just some phrasing differences, but everyone's the same underneath,

852
00:50:54,236 --> 00:50:58,756
Speaker 2: you know, And and that's it was a strong testimony

853
00:50:58,836 --> 00:51:01,036
Speaker 2: to connection among humans.

854
00:51:01,076 --> 00:51:01,436
Speaker 1: I thought.

855
00:51:02,556 --> 00:51:05,756
Speaker 2: So initially we thought it's even going to work. And

856
00:51:06,116 --> 00:51:08,556
Speaker 2: Gladys Knight and Vince Gill sing a duet. They were

857
00:51:08,596 --> 00:51:11,236
Speaker 2: the first one who sang on it, and of course

858
00:51:11,276 --> 00:51:15,196
Speaker 2: they could, so we did. You just covered R and

859
00:51:15,276 --> 00:51:19,596
Speaker 2: B or or country classics, and as it went on

860
00:51:19,676 --> 00:51:23,316
Speaker 2: we got more adventurous with the tracks. But he's Travis

861
00:51:23,316 --> 00:51:29,196
Speaker 2: sang when Something's wrong with My Baby, and you gotta

862
00:51:29,236 --> 00:51:31,596
Speaker 2: go in the studio and sing live with Patty LaBelle

863
00:51:31,636 --> 00:51:36,076
Speaker 2: good luck, motherfucker right. He was awesome. He was and

864
00:51:36,116 --> 00:51:38,116
Speaker 2: I was blown away by how good he was. And

865
00:51:39,036 --> 00:51:42,596
Speaker 2: we became friendly and I enjoyed making that record, and

866
00:51:42,636 --> 00:51:46,236
Speaker 2: we had a we had a number one country record. Anything.

867
00:51:46,356 --> 00:51:49,196
Speaker 1: It sits different in his in that in that era

868
00:51:49,276 --> 00:51:50,396
Speaker 1: of his catalog.

869
00:51:50,836 --> 00:51:54,076
Speaker 2: It's really it's a little more intimate sounds. Agreed.

870
00:51:54,436 --> 00:51:57,556
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted to ask you, man, you're talking about

871
00:51:57,636 --> 00:52:01,676
Speaker 1: making that album showcasing that there's not a lot of

872
00:52:01,756 --> 00:52:03,596
Speaker 1: daylight between what we think of as R and B

873
00:52:03,676 --> 00:52:07,556
Speaker 1: and country. We're talking the day after Steve Cropper. Yeah,

874
00:52:07,676 --> 00:52:09,156
Speaker 1: did you did you everny to work with Steve.

875
00:52:11,236 --> 00:52:14,116
Speaker 2: Or I played with him a couple of times in

876
00:52:14,556 --> 00:52:17,396
Speaker 2: you know, some big settings, you know, tribute kind of thing,

877
00:52:19,036 --> 00:52:21,436
Speaker 2: and I had dinner with him a couple of times.

878
00:52:21,436 --> 00:52:24,996
Speaker 2: A lovely guy and what a heroic figure man, What

879
00:52:25,396 --> 00:52:29,516
Speaker 2: an important figure in music. His style of guitar playing

880
00:52:30,796 --> 00:52:35,916
Speaker 2: impacted everybody, you know, It's just what Steve Cropper brought

881
00:52:35,916 --> 00:52:39,516
Speaker 2: to the game has become part of the musical vocabulary

882
00:52:39,596 --> 00:52:43,396
Speaker 2: that everyone shares and so many generations removed. I'm not

883
00:52:43,436 --> 00:52:48,596
Speaker 2: sure younger musicians understand that he played that way first right, yes,

884
00:52:49,076 --> 00:52:54,036
Speaker 2: And what a wild milliar to come out of being

885
00:52:54,396 --> 00:52:58,476
Speaker 2: a white guy in Memphis making those records and just

886
00:52:58,596 --> 00:53:02,716
Speaker 2: having that band book and MGS man, But what what

887
00:53:02,796 --> 00:53:08,796
Speaker 2: a great statement that made about people getting along and

888
00:53:08,836 --> 00:53:13,116
Speaker 2: being the same and the commonality of human experience. Just

889
00:53:13,156 --> 00:53:15,556
Speaker 2: seeing that band at that time, just seeing them play

890
00:53:15,756 --> 00:53:18,156
Speaker 2: and having so much fun and seeing Duck Dun so

891
00:53:18,276 --> 00:53:20,316
Speaker 2: happy and grooving around.

892
00:53:20,156 --> 00:53:21,956
Speaker 1: Like that, and Al Jackson Junior's drama.

893
00:53:22,196 --> 00:53:24,356
Speaker 2: Every one of them, man, every one of those guys.

894
00:53:24,476 --> 00:53:32,036
Speaker 2: Was there's a diamond you know? Uh yeah, no, there's one.

895
00:53:32,076 --> 00:53:33,436
Speaker 2: Steve Cropper. Yeah.

896
00:53:33,516 --> 00:53:36,316
Speaker 1: I remember reading the Hendricks Bigraphy at some point, and

897
00:53:36,596 --> 00:53:40,076
Speaker 1: somewhere in it it's mentioned that like Hendrix can'meer where

898
00:53:40,116 --> 00:53:42,876
Speaker 1: he was in his career, and he went, yeah, he's like,

899
00:53:42,916 --> 00:53:44,756
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm in Nashville, like I'm going He like

900
00:53:44,796 --> 00:53:48,076
Speaker 1: waited in the studio for twelve hours and Steve Cropper

901
00:53:48,116 --> 00:53:48,596
Speaker 1: to show up.

902
00:53:49,076 --> 00:53:54,396
Speaker 2: The Cropper knew something that Hendricks had played. I can't

903
00:53:54,396 --> 00:53:56,276
Speaker 2: think he was on some session of.

904
00:53:56,756 --> 00:53:59,396
Speaker 1: Like like Mercy Mercy or something, yeah, something.

905
00:53:59,236 --> 00:54:02,596
Speaker 2: Like oh yeah maybe it's Don Kobe. Yeah yeah it

906
00:54:02,676 --> 00:54:06,076
Speaker 2: might have been, but yeah it is. Yeah, but he

907
00:54:06,156 --> 00:54:08,556
Speaker 2: knew that, and he wanted to meet Hendricks but didn't

908
00:54:08,556 --> 00:54:11,196
Speaker 2: know him. But Jimmy Hendrix was aback. He just knew

909
00:54:11,196 --> 00:54:13,196
Speaker 2: he was a guy who played on on on the

910
00:54:13,236 --> 00:54:13,836
Speaker 2: don kovie.

911
00:54:13,916 --> 00:54:15,516
Speaker 1: So I didn't know that part of it way. So

912
00:54:15,556 --> 00:54:19,436
Speaker 1: he that's fast. Yeah, what it's time to be alive?

913
00:54:19,476 --> 00:54:20,196
Speaker 2: Man? Imagine that.

914
00:54:20,316 --> 00:54:24,196
Speaker 1: Yeah for Bookatin mgs for their first single to be

915
00:54:24,276 --> 00:54:27,916
Speaker 1: green Onions, unbelievable.

916
00:54:27,956 --> 00:54:30,396
Speaker 2: Man. Well, I've been able to play with Booker a

917
00:54:30,436 --> 00:54:35,916
Speaker 2: lot over the years, and he played on it was

918
00:54:35,916 --> 00:54:39,956
Speaker 2: wasn't help him play one. He's on the It's an

919
00:54:39,956 --> 00:54:43,356
Speaker 2: album called Boo that it took us sixteen years to finish.

920
00:54:43,436 --> 00:54:47,156
Speaker 2: We started it in ninety three, got dropped by our

921
00:54:47,196 --> 00:54:49,956
Speaker 2: label and went back and finished it in two thousand

922
00:54:49,996 --> 00:54:53,516
Speaker 2: and eight. And and he's on it. But you know I

923
00:54:53,516 --> 00:54:56,076
Speaker 2: could call. He would do sessions and I got to

924
00:54:56,116 --> 00:54:58,556
Speaker 2: play it. Actually, what a big thrill man. For a

925
00:54:58,636 --> 00:55:02,396
Speaker 2: couple of years ago, it was William Nelson's ninetieth birthday

926
00:55:02,596 --> 00:55:05,836
Speaker 2: and we did at the Bowl and I was n't

927
00:55:05,836 --> 00:55:09,876
Speaker 2: you dah Yeah, So I I'd never played at the

928
00:55:09,876 --> 00:55:13,996
Speaker 2: Hollywood Bowl. Before i'd been there, I never was on

929
00:55:14,036 --> 00:55:18,836
Speaker 2: stage playing, so just at the soundcheck, we did start Us,

930
00:55:19,876 --> 00:55:23,036
Speaker 2: same exact arrangement from the album that Booker produced and

931
00:55:23,076 --> 00:55:26,556
Speaker 2: played on right, and the song was going down. There's

932
00:55:26,596 --> 00:55:28,756
Speaker 2: no one in the audience. Song was going down over

933
00:55:28,796 --> 00:55:33,396
Speaker 2: the hill, and Willie sounded like Willie, you know, like

934
00:55:33,596 --> 00:55:37,596
Speaker 2: forty years ago. And I just couldn't believe. I remember

935
00:55:37,636 --> 00:55:41,756
Speaker 2: buying Start Us, you know, being broken Detroit and trying

936
00:55:41,756 --> 00:55:44,116
Speaker 2: to learn how to make records and just playing it

937
00:55:44,156 --> 00:55:47,836
Speaker 2: over and over and listen to it, and I got

938
00:55:47,916 --> 00:55:51,356
Speaker 2: choked up, man, that I was standing on stage at

939
00:55:51,356 --> 00:55:55,756
Speaker 2: the Hollywood Bowl with these two guys, and the universe

940
00:55:56,396 --> 00:56:00,396
Speaker 2: had parted in such a crazy way to allow me

941
00:56:00,436 --> 00:56:04,436
Speaker 2: to get up on stage be playing that song with them.

942
00:56:05,276 --> 00:56:08,676
Speaker 2: There were so many highlights musically of that. The two

943
00:56:08,796 --> 00:56:12,356
Speaker 2: nights we played like sixty songs and it was just

944
00:56:12,396 --> 00:56:16,556
Speaker 2: an incredible array of people coming to pay tribute to Willie.

945
00:56:17,156 --> 00:56:18,996
Speaker 2: But that one moment was the highlight.

946
00:56:20,196 --> 00:56:27,556
Speaker 1: One last break and were back with Don was we're

947
00:56:27,596 --> 00:56:29,876
Speaker 1: talking about like the intersection of like you know our

948
00:56:30,316 --> 00:56:32,676
Speaker 1: country and all that I mean you have going back

949
00:56:32,676 --> 00:56:36,516
Speaker 1: to your new record, you have a Hank William Williams

950
00:56:36,556 --> 00:56:38,916
Speaker 1: song work its way into your guys's repertoire that was

951
00:56:39,116 --> 00:56:40,076
Speaker 1: that blew me away too.

952
00:56:40,476 --> 00:56:42,876
Speaker 2: I initially wanted to well, I wanted to have a

953
00:56:42,876 --> 00:56:45,516
Speaker 2: good song. I want to go a good you know

954
00:56:45,556 --> 00:56:48,316
Speaker 2: who you get? I don't. I don't really know better

955
00:56:48,356 --> 00:56:53,516
Speaker 2: writer than Hank Williams. I know different kinds of writers.

956
00:56:53,996 --> 00:56:58,556
Speaker 2: But if ever there was a guy plugged into the

957
00:56:58,636 --> 00:57:03,516
Speaker 2: basic stream of human emotion, it was Hank, and he

958
00:57:03,556 --> 00:57:06,716
Speaker 2: could express it with the simplicity that no one else could.

959
00:57:07,796 --> 00:57:10,116
Speaker 2: What I wanted with this album, to be honest with you,

960
00:57:10,356 --> 00:57:13,196
Speaker 2: was I didn't want the writing to be the weak link,

961
00:57:14,876 --> 00:57:17,116
Speaker 2: and I certainly didn't want my writing to be the

962
00:57:17,116 --> 00:57:20,556
Speaker 2: weak link, so I didn't write much for it. I

963
00:57:20,596 --> 00:57:25,476
Speaker 2: wanted to to launch this thing with an advantage, so

964
00:57:25,556 --> 00:57:30,156
Speaker 2: I just tried to choose great songs that would help us.

965
00:57:31,116 --> 00:57:32,476
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean you got to do it. Just

966
00:57:32,716 --> 00:57:34,116
Speaker 2: no point in doing it, just like Hank.

967
00:57:34,716 --> 00:57:36,836
Speaker 1: Yeah right, Well, then, how do you guys arrange your Now?

968
00:57:36,836 --> 00:57:37,916
Speaker 1: Do you guys arrange these songs?

969
00:57:38,036 --> 00:57:38,156
Speaker 2: Is it?

970
00:57:38,396 --> 00:57:40,796
Speaker 1: Everyone comes to do? You write their own?

971
00:57:41,116 --> 00:57:44,756
Speaker 2: Well? That one I arranged. I did an album in

972
00:57:44,796 --> 00:57:48,436
Speaker 2: the nineties called a Building as Orchestra was, which was

973
00:57:48,516 --> 00:57:51,036
Speaker 2: kind of the buzzner was guys. There's Sweet Pea sing

974
00:57:51,076 --> 00:57:56,236
Speaker 2: and McMurray but also had Herbie Hancock, and I had

975
00:57:56,356 --> 00:57:59,516
Speaker 2: Robbie Turner who was way Lund's pedal steel player on it.

976
00:57:59,516 --> 00:58:02,516
Speaker 2: We had like thirteen musicians in the room. Terrence Blancherd,

977
00:58:03,236 --> 00:58:08,196
Speaker 2: but Dave McMurray and Luis Resto from from from Wesna.

978
00:58:08,196 --> 00:58:10,996
Speaker 2: I was w Aaron Sweet Peace sang and that was

979
00:58:11,036 --> 00:58:13,236
Speaker 2: one of the songs, and I just worked out a

980
00:58:13,276 --> 00:58:16,236
Speaker 2: different arrangement it was. It was actually all Hank Williams songs.

981
00:58:17,556 --> 00:58:21,156
Speaker 2: Merle Haggard sang a song no one's ever heard. It's

982
00:58:21,436 --> 00:58:22,436
Speaker 2: it's it's streaming.

983
00:58:22,636 --> 00:58:23,396
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pull it up.

984
00:58:23,476 --> 00:58:26,836
Speaker 2: Yeah. So but we never played any gigs. We played

985
00:58:26,836 --> 00:58:31,156
Speaker 2: one gig, I think one time, and there's too many people,

986
00:58:31,196 --> 00:58:34,356
Speaker 2: too hard to get everybody together, so I never just

987
00:58:34,396 --> 00:58:36,756
Speaker 2: the first chance I had to play it live. So

988
00:58:36,796 --> 00:58:41,116
Speaker 2: we started doing it with the Pandatroit Ensemble and it's

989
00:58:41,556 --> 00:58:44,316
Speaker 2: we've been opening shows on the last tour.

990
00:58:44,436 --> 00:58:45,436
Speaker 1: Oh that's amazing.

991
00:58:45,556 --> 00:58:48,956
Speaker 2: So it's a Hank Williams song, but it's pretty rewarked

992
00:58:49,716 --> 00:58:52,556
Speaker 2: from the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had to go get permission.

993
00:58:52,676 --> 00:58:54,356
Speaker 2: Let me put it that way. From the publisher to

994
00:58:54,876 --> 00:58:57,356
Speaker 2: take that kind of liberty with the song you did. Yeah,

995
00:58:57,916 --> 00:58:59,116
Speaker 2: liver cool, they don't mind.

996
00:58:59,876 --> 00:59:03,516
Speaker 1: It's incredible. Can I I want to ask you about

997
00:59:03,556 --> 00:59:07,556
Speaker 1: this song because I wonder what did this? I wonder

998
00:59:07,556 --> 00:59:11,236
Speaker 1: how specifically where this sounds came from?

999
00:59:11,636 --> 00:59:24,396
Speaker 2: Oh? What is that? Well? Here, this that's from our

1000
00:59:24,516 --> 00:59:27,596
Speaker 2: first was not was record called Wheel Me Out. And

1001
00:59:28,476 --> 00:59:31,716
Speaker 2: they didn't have they had eight o eeights, you know,

1002
00:59:31,756 --> 00:59:33,796
Speaker 2: they hadn't They didn't have the lin drub. There were

1003
00:59:33,796 --> 00:59:37,396
Speaker 2: no digital sampling things when we made the record. We

1004
00:59:38,036 --> 00:59:41,636
Speaker 2: did that probably in nineteen seventy nine. So yet I

1005
00:59:41,676 --> 00:59:43,916
Speaker 2: wanted to make dance records, and I knew that having

1006
00:59:43,916 --> 00:59:47,316
Speaker 2: a hypnotic groove was essential, and I thought the groove

1007
00:59:47,356 --> 00:59:53,396
Speaker 2: should be repetitive. So we made loops with analog tape.

1008
00:59:53,956 --> 00:59:56,356
Speaker 2: And but when the way that would work was that,

1009
00:59:57,396 --> 01:00:00,796
Speaker 2: you know, you'd play something for a while and you'd

1010
01:00:00,876 --> 01:00:04,436
Speaker 2: find the section that was great, and you'd cut the

1011
01:00:04,436 --> 01:00:09,676
Speaker 2: tape and and so that it began beginning of the

1012
01:00:09,716 --> 01:00:13,476
Speaker 2: loop and ended, you know, right before the one of

1013
01:00:13,556 --> 01:00:15,796
Speaker 2: the next bar or wherever you wanted to cut it,

1014
01:00:15,876 --> 01:00:18,636
Speaker 2: and then and then you just taped it together. So

1015
01:00:18,716 --> 01:00:21,556
Speaker 2: it was literally a loop that's why they that's what

1016
01:00:21,636 --> 01:00:24,196
Speaker 2: they call it looping it. And then but you did,

1017
01:00:24,436 --> 01:00:29,396
Speaker 2: you put it down on the analog tape recorder and

1018
01:00:29,836 --> 01:00:32,876
Speaker 2: it was too big. The reels didn't matter because you

1019
01:00:32,916 --> 01:00:35,036
Speaker 2: wanted the same thing to play. You thread it through

1020
01:00:35,036 --> 01:00:37,076
Speaker 2: the cap stands so that it would turn. Then you

1021
01:00:37,116 --> 01:00:39,196
Speaker 2: set up mic stands all over the room. You could

1022
01:00:39,756 --> 01:00:42,916
Speaker 2: I think that loop covered it filled the control room.

1023
01:00:42,916 --> 01:00:44,876
Speaker 2: We had to have three or four mic stands. We

1024
01:00:44,916 --> 01:00:48,276
Speaker 2: had the right amount of tension. And then we recorded

1025
01:00:48,316 --> 01:00:52,756
Speaker 2: it on a sixteen track two inch machine and then

1026
01:00:52,836 --> 01:00:56,316
Speaker 2: bounced it over to it made the loop play on

1027
01:00:56,316 --> 01:00:58,756
Speaker 2: the sixteen track, bounce it over to twenty four track,

1028
01:00:58,836 --> 01:01:01,036
Speaker 2: and we built the song up from there.

1029
01:01:01,556 --> 01:01:02,916
Speaker 1: How how the hell is you don't know how to

1030
01:01:02,956 --> 01:01:03,156
Speaker 1: do that?

1031
01:01:04,196 --> 01:01:08,076
Speaker 2: People have been doing it for years. Yeah, it was

1032
01:01:08,116 --> 01:01:10,996
Speaker 2: not that we didn't invent it, but that was the

1033
01:01:10,996 --> 01:01:13,476
Speaker 2: only way to make a loop there was. They didn't

1034
01:01:13,516 --> 01:01:18,636
Speaker 2: have samplers. There's no digital sampling. And it was nice

1035
01:01:18,676 --> 01:01:23,716
Speaker 2: because it was all played by humans. So uh, we

1036
01:01:23,756 --> 01:01:25,836
Speaker 2: had a drummer come in and then those are like

1037
01:01:25,956 --> 01:01:30,116
Speaker 2: soda bottles that that we're playing by hand. There's a

1038
01:01:30,156 --> 01:01:33,036
Speaker 2: couple of us just sitting on the floor really yeah,

1039
01:01:33,356 --> 01:01:36,556
Speaker 2: hitting hitting soda bottles with drumsticks, but tuned to it.

1040
01:01:36,956 --> 01:01:38,876
Speaker 2: We picked ones that had a pitch. I knew it

1041
01:01:39,236 --> 01:01:41,636
Speaker 2: had to be that interval in those notes.

1042
01:01:47,916 --> 01:01:51,276
Speaker 1: And who's playing that part?

1043
01:01:51,916 --> 01:01:55,476
Speaker 2: Uh, there's a couple of us. Uh, it's probably I'm

1044
01:01:55,476 --> 01:01:58,396
Speaker 2: trying to remember who was. It was probably Larry Fartangela,

1045
01:01:58,476 --> 01:02:01,956
Speaker 2: who was the percussionist with George Clinton Funkadelic. Right some

1046
01:02:02,076 --> 01:02:04,836
Speaker 2: One Nation under a Groove because that was One Nation

1047
01:02:04,956 --> 01:02:08,956
Speaker 2: under Groove was pretty Uh. It informed a lot of

1048
01:02:08,956 --> 01:02:14,556
Speaker 2: that album, what George was doing at that time in Detroit. Yeah.

1049
01:02:14,756 --> 01:02:18,396
Speaker 2: So Larry was a buddy mine and he toured with

1050
01:02:18,436 --> 01:02:20,676
Speaker 2: them for years, so I think I had him come over,

1051
01:02:20,916 --> 01:02:23,356
Speaker 2: but I think it was there were a couple of us.

1052
01:02:23,556 --> 01:02:25,836
Speaker 2: It took a couple of people to play it so

1053
01:02:25,876 --> 01:02:29,596
Speaker 2: cool and and there was a and then we played

1054
01:02:30,076 --> 01:02:33,676
Speaker 2: played drum drum beat and bounce that over and we

1055
01:02:33,756 --> 01:02:35,636
Speaker 2: built the track up from the loop.

1056
01:02:36,636 --> 01:02:38,556
Speaker 1: So it's one of it's it's just to this day

1057
01:02:38,556 --> 01:02:41,436
Speaker 1: it still sounds a he It's.

1058
01:02:41,276 --> 01:02:43,276
Speaker 2: Been sampled a lot. I never got fun for it,

1059
01:02:43,316 --> 01:02:43,916
Speaker 2: but it's been.

1060
01:02:46,876 --> 01:02:52,356
Speaker 1: There's another thing you can relate to your artist, how

1061
01:02:52,356 --> 01:02:55,236
Speaker 1: did the Curtis Mayfield song make It onto Your Uh,

1062
01:02:55,476 --> 01:02:58,556
Speaker 1: this is My Country. It's kind of an over looks

1063
01:02:59,076 --> 01:03:01,356
Speaker 1: song today in his catalog, but I love I love

1064
01:03:01,356 --> 01:03:02,356
Speaker 1: that song that album too.

1065
01:03:02,516 --> 01:03:05,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's a great album. Curtis was such a

1066
01:03:05,756 --> 01:03:08,956
Speaker 2: brilliant writer, and I think I just played it on

1067
01:03:08,956 --> 01:03:12,876
Speaker 2: my radio show, and when I heard the lyrics, it

1068
01:03:13,036 --> 01:03:16,996
Speaker 2: just it broke my heart because I remember the mood

1069
01:03:17,276 --> 01:03:22,276
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty six when he made that, and it

1070
01:03:22,356 --> 01:03:27,196
Speaker 2: was so hopeful the mood then. Man, if you'd told

1071
01:03:27,236 --> 01:03:29,556
Speaker 2: me in nineteen sixty six that that song was going

1072
01:03:29,636 --> 01:03:32,196
Speaker 2: to be more relevant in twenty twenty five than it

1073
01:03:32,236 --> 01:03:35,396
Speaker 2: was in nineteen sixty six, I wouldn't have believed you, man,

1074
01:03:35,916 --> 01:03:41,076
Speaker 2: And it actually got me choked up to think, how oh,

1075
01:03:41,116 --> 01:03:44,476
Speaker 2: how many backward steps have been taken in the last

1076
01:03:44,556 --> 01:03:49,356
Speaker 2: few years, and it just seemed like an essential message.

1077
01:03:49,396 --> 01:03:53,316
Speaker 2: So we started closing the shows with it, and beyond

1078
01:03:53,316 --> 01:03:58,356
Speaker 2: the message, everyone in the band on the bus, you

1079
01:03:58,356 --> 01:03:59,876
Speaker 2: know the should we'd get back on the bus at

1080
01:03:59,876 --> 01:04:02,276
Speaker 2: eleven thirty at night, at five o'clock in the morning,

1081
01:04:02,436 --> 01:04:10,276
Speaker 2: everybody and their own agrhythm was singing down Down, It's

1082
01:04:10,316 --> 01:04:15,076
Speaker 2: so infectious so we just thought, well, we should cut it. Yeah,

1083
01:04:15,276 --> 01:04:18,196
Speaker 2: it's a timely important thing to say right now.

1084
01:04:19,116 --> 01:04:22,876
Speaker 1: The album cover looks I feel like you've shown me this.

1085
01:04:23,356 --> 01:04:25,396
Speaker 2: I might have showed you that. I could have showed

1086
01:04:25,396 --> 01:04:28,556
Speaker 2: it to you. It's a great picture taking it in

1087
01:04:28,596 --> 01:04:31,636
Speaker 2: front of Jove von Battle's record store, which is on

1088
01:04:31,756 --> 01:04:37,236
Speaker 2: Hastings Street and Detroit. Hasting Street was the center, the

1089
01:04:37,276 --> 01:04:41,556
Speaker 2: main street of an area called Black Bottom, which was

1090
01:04:41,876 --> 01:04:46,956
Speaker 2: the black residential and economic area of Detroit and one

1091
01:04:46,996 --> 01:04:52,196
Speaker 2: of the most heinous episodes in the history of the city,

1092
01:04:53,756 --> 01:04:56,996
Speaker 2: and it happened all over the country. In the late fifties,

1093
01:04:57,156 --> 01:05:00,356
Speaker 2: there was this thing called urban renewal that was just

1094
01:05:00,436 --> 01:05:05,116
Speaker 2: basically a plan to destroy black communities and displace people

1095
01:05:05,396 --> 01:05:10,196
Speaker 2: into areas that there was not enough housing for. It

1096
01:05:10,236 --> 01:05:13,436
Speaker 2: got turned into a freeway ramp. The fact that I

1097
01:05:13,596 --> 01:05:16,276
Speaker 2: visited it recently, I did a thing that don Ganie

1098
01:05:16,436 --> 01:05:23,356
Speaker 2: for NPRT Music Sites in Detroit, and the Joe's Record

1099
01:05:23,396 --> 01:05:26,676
Speaker 2: Store stood just south of mac Avenue on the entrance

1100
01:05:26,996 --> 01:05:30,476
Speaker 2: on the southbound entrance ramp to the Chrysler Freeway. Torn

1101
01:05:30,556 --> 01:05:33,436
Speaker 2: down for nothing. Man, they could have built that half

1102
01:05:33,476 --> 01:05:36,996
Speaker 2: a mile over, but Joe von Battle was a really

1103
01:05:37,196 --> 01:05:42,836
Speaker 2: important person in Detroit music. Had a recording studio on

1104
01:05:42,876 --> 01:05:46,996
Speaker 2: the back. He recorded John Lee Hooker there, Recordedretha Franklin

1105
01:05:46,996 --> 01:05:49,956
Speaker 2: when she was fourteen. Her first record was made in

1106
01:05:50,076 --> 01:05:53,476
Speaker 2: his studio because he used to record her dad's sermons,

1107
01:05:53,516 --> 01:05:56,756
Speaker 2: ce L. Franklin, Reverend C. L. Franklin. He'd press up

1108
01:05:56,756 --> 01:06:01,036
Speaker 2: the sermons and sell them the week after after church

1109
01:06:01,076 --> 01:06:07,676
Speaker 2: on Sunday. It was like immediate distribution, and that record

1110
01:06:07,676 --> 01:06:12,356
Speaker 2: store was the heart of Detroit music. The photo was

1111
01:06:12,396 --> 01:06:14,636
Speaker 2: taken by a French photographer who went to shoot at

1112
01:06:14,676 --> 01:06:17,116
Speaker 2: John Lee Hooker album covered. It's kind of a famous cover.

1113
01:06:17,396 --> 01:06:19,636
Speaker 2: You see him, you see the store from another angle.

1114
01:06:19,916 --> 01:06:22,436
Speaker 2: He moved over onto the sidewalk and John Lee Hooker's

1115
01:06:22,436 --> 01:06:26,996
Speaker 2: standing in front of the store and you get a

1116
01:06:27,036 --> 01:06:31,516
Speaker 2: better view of Hastings Street. So I saw that picture

1117
01:06:32,396 --> 01:06:37,836
Speaker 2: and I thought, man, this is that record store is

1118
01:06:38,116 --> 01:06:43,956
Speaker 2: metaphorically our spiritual home for this band. So it's actually

1119
01:06:43,996 --> 01:06:48,756
Speaker 2: my wife Jema, photoshopped us into the picture. It looks

1120
01:06:48,796 --> 01:06:50,956
Speaker 2: like we're hanging out in front of the store with

1121
01:06:51,156 --> 01:06:56,516
Speaker 2: Joe as in the picture, and metaphorically, musically that's what

1122
01:06:56,556 --> 01:06:58,516
Speaker 2: we're doing. We're hanging out in front of that store,

1123
01:06:58,596 --> 01:07:03,116
Speaker 2: and those sounds. To me, the real sound of Detroit

1124
01:07:03,276 --> 01:07:06,116
Speaker 2: kind of comes from John Lee Hooker because he's raw

1125
01:07:06,596 --> 01:07:11,156
Speaker 2: and unpretentious and so raw you think the music's maybe

1126
01:07:11,236 --> 01:07:14,956
Speaker 2: gonna the song could collapse at any moment, right, but

1127
01:07:14,996 --> 01:07:18,516
Speaker 2: it never does. Not only doesn't it collapse, but it

1128
01:07:18,756 --> 01:07:23,196
Speaker 2: swings like crazy. Matt groos like crazy, and it's just

1129
01:07:23,476 --> 01:07:26,756
Speaker 2: soulful and from the heart. And that's at the root

1130
01:07:26,876 --> 01:07:29,956
Speaker 2: of Detroit music. If you're looking for the thing that

1131
01:07:30,116 --> 01:07:35,196
Speaker 2: makes Detroit unique, it's a raw groove with real heart

1132
01:07:35,236 --> 01:07:37,476
Speaker 2: and soul on top of it. And it doesn't matter

1133
01:07:37,836 --> 01:07:42,276
Speaker 2: what stream of music that flowed from that record store out,

1134
01:07:42,276 --> 01:07:45,076
Speaker 2: whether it's the rock and roll bands like Mitch Ryder.

1135
01:07:45,716 --> 01:07:47,516
Speaker 2: No one like Mitch Rider in the world when he

1136
01:07:47,596 --> 01:07:51,516
Speaker 2: came along, and Mitch Ryder informed the MC five and

1137
01:07:51,556 --> 01:07:55,516
Speaker 2: the Stooges and really Funkadelic too. But then the R

1138
01:07:55,516 --> 01:07:58,476
Speaker 2: and B stream, not just motown, which everyone knows, which

1139
01:07:58,636 --> 01:08:01,156
Speaker 2: if you really listen to those records, it's clear that

1140
01:08:01,236 --> 01:08:05,556
Speaker 2: those are regional there it's folk music from Detroit. You know,

1141
01:08:05,636 --> 01:08:07,076
Speaker 2: those are raw records.

1142
01:08:07,116 --> 01:08:09,236
Speaker 1: They had a Berry Gordy to somehow.

1143
01:08:09,196 --> 01:08:11,556
Speaker 2: Well he put pop melodies, and he understood how to

1144
01:08:11,676 --> 01:08:16,356
Speaker 2: tap a world's sensibility. But they're very Detroit. Those records

1145
01:08:16,796 --> 01:08:20,076
Speaker 2: and Fortune Records before that, you know, which was you know,

1146
01:08:21,596 --> 01:08:24,076
Speaker 2: incredible R and B cut in another record store, in

1147
01:08:24,116 --> 01:08:27,516
Speaker 2: the back of another record store. So the jazz comes

1148
01:08:27,516 --> 01:08:30,356
Speaker 2: from Detroit. To me, Alvin Jones epitomizes the thing. Man.

1149
01:08:30,876 --> 01:08:40,836
Speaker 2: He's level of sophistication and knowledge and technique that's not

1150
01:08:40,916 --> 01:08:43,596
Speaker 2: been exceeded, but he's still got this raw energy to

1151
01:08:43,676 --> 01:08:50,156
Speaker 2: his plan. That's it's a rambunctious Detroit feeling. But so

1152
01:08:50,196 --> 01:08:52,876
Speaker 2: many great jazz musicians. When I first got the job

1153
01:08:52,916 --> 01:08:55,596
Speaker 2: a Blue Note man, I thought, let's start doing Let's

1154
01:08:55,636 --> 01:08:59,036
Speaker 2: do a series of regional albums. We'll do famous cities.

1155
01:08:59,076 --> 01:09:02,876
Speaker 2: We'll get people from each city. I'll curate the Detroit one.

1156
01:09:03,156 --> 01:09:06,436
Speaker 2: And I went through this Donald Bird. There's Paul Chambers,

1157
01:09:06,476 --> 01:09:11,436
Speaker 2: there's Ron Carter, there's Thad Elvin and Hank Jones, there's

1158
01:09:12,516 --> 01:09:15,876
Speaker 2: Curtis Fuller. I mean, it just goes on and there's

1159
01:09:16,116 --> 01:09:19,196
Speaker 2: Jerry Allen, there's Dave McMurray. Who's on the label. Now,

1160
01:09:19,596 --> 01:09:24,236
Speaker 2: I mean it's it's the number of Joe Henderson, John Henderson.

1161
01:09:24,996 --> 01:09:28,756
Speaker 2: It just goes on Kenny Burrell. Kenny Burrell's from Detroit. Yeah,

1162
01:09:28,756 --> 01:09:32,356
Speaker 2: I did not, so I thought, well, we'll do this

1163
01:09:32,436 --> 01:09:37,836
Speaker 2: in every city. No, maybe Newark if you put a

1164
01:09:37,836 --> 01:09:42,676
Speaker 2: lot of Wayne Shorter, maybe Philadelphia. But that's it. You

1165
01:09:42,716 --> 01:09:45,956
Speaker 2: can't do it. Uh So there's a there was a

1166
01:09:45,996 --> 01:09:49,676
Speaker 2: Detroit thing that happened in all that, But I see

1167
01:09:49,716 --> 01:09:53,156
Speaker 2: it as being descended from the same. It's just there's

1168
01:09:53,196 --> 01:09:55,676
Speaker 2: no bullshit. Yeah, it's unpretentious.

1169
01:09:55,996 --> 01:09:58,076
Speaker 1: Was was Richard Pryor sober when he worked with this?

1170
01:09:58,596 --> 01:10:01,556
Speaker 2: Yeah? And he wasn't well, he wasn't just towards the

1171
01:10:01,636 --> 01:10:04,996
Speaker 2: end of his life. Yeah, he's sweet, but he was

1172
01:10:06,436 --> 01:10:12,316
Speaker 2: he was sitting a lot. Yeah mm hmm. Yeah, there's

1173
01:10:12,356 --> 01:10:16,196
Speaker 2: a real honor. Man. We were like, we're we're gobsmacked.

1174
01:10:16,796 --> 01:10:20,596
Speaker 1: You know, that's crazy. I mean, you know, some of

1175
01:10:20,596 --> 01:10:24,076
Speaker 1: his records are I don't know, as mythological as you know,

1176
01:10:24,116 --> 01:10:25,796
Speaker 1: any other music record, you know what I mean. Some

1177
01:10:25,876 --> 01:10:28,916
Speaker 1: of those records are just like putting like wild the

1178
01:10:29,036 --> 01:10:29,996
Speaker 1: good Yeah, you know.

1179
01:10:30,636 --> 01:10:34,476
Speaker 2: No, I agree. He was way ahead of everybody. Sometimes

1180
01:10:34,676 --> 01:10:41,236
Speaker 2: you it just lonely being ahead everybody. That's a that's

1181
01:10:41,236 --> 01:10:48,436
Speaker 2: a lonely spot to be in. And uh, you understand

1182
01:10:48,476 --> 01:10:51,596
Speaker 2: why he chased the distractions he chased.

1183
01:10:51,996 --> 01:10:54,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, he seemed to have an inability as well to

1184
01:10:54,476 --> 01:10:58,636
Speaker 1: be anyone other than him. There was no life cosby

1185
01:10:58,676 --> 01:10:59,796
Speaker 1: I'm this, but I'm really that.

1186
01:11:00,036 --> 01:11:06,716
Speaker 2: It's like you. You can't do that and not be it,

1187
01:11:06,756 --> 01:11:11,596
Speaker 2: be it. I think it's the same music too. You

1188
01:11:11,676 --> 01:11:14,076
Speaker 2: can't act. You know. One time I saw I was

1189
01:11:14,236 --> 01:11:17,236
Speaker 2: when I was working with Bonnie. Rait writer named Paul

1190
01:11:17,316 --> 01:11:21,596
Speaker 2: Brady sent us a song that I guarantee you would

1191
01:11:21,596 --> 01:11:24,756
Speaker 2: have been a top ten pop single, but it's about

1192
01:11:24,756 --> 01:11:28,156
Speaker 2: a breakup, and Bodie wouldn't sing it. She said, I

1193
01:11:28,156 --> 01:11:30,996
Speaker 2: can't sing this now. I just got married. Ah, And

1194
01:11:33,236 --> 01:11:35,356
Speaker 2: she didn't want to actress. If she didn't write them,

1195
01:11:35,476 --> 01:11:38,356
Speaker 2: they had to be as if she had written them.

1196
01:11:39,116 --> 01:11:41,836
Speaker 2: And I think that's why she can go so deep

1197
01:11:42,116 --> 01:11:46,916
Speaker 2: with those songs, because she finds a place deep inside

1198
01:11:46,996 --> 01:11:50,156
Speaker 2: where it rings true and she only sings songs that

1199
01:11:50,276 --> 01:11:53,996
Speaker 2: do that. Yeah, and that's why she's You know, there's

1200
01:11:54,036 --> 01:11:55,996
Speaker 2: a better singer around. I don't know who it is.

1201
01:11:56,116 --> 01:11:57,396
Speaker 1: We are you a fan of hers when you started?

1202
01:11:57,396 --> 01:12:01,036
Speaker 1: Because I mean her catalog is so insanely good. Yeah,

1203
01:12:01,796 --> 01:12:03,236
Speaker 1: I bought her first I didn't buy it.

1204
01:12:03,636 --> 01:12:06,076
Speaker 2: I got her first album when it was new in

1205
01:12:06,156 --> 01:12:09,156
Speaker 2: like nineteen seventy one or something like that, and it

1206
01:12:09,036 --> 01:12:10,236
Speaker 2: was so refreshing. Man.

1207
01:12:10,236 --> 01:12:11,116
Speaker 1: It was cut on the.

1208
01:12:13,756 --> 01:12:16,956
Speaker 2: Thank You and uh yeah, it's it's a it's just

1209
01:12:16,996 --> 01:12:20,796
Speaker 2: a it's just a really raw, real album, which was

1210
01:12:20,836 --> 01:12:23,876
Speaker 2: refreshing at the time when everyone was still imitating Sergeant

1211
01:12:23,876 --> 01:12:27,596
Speaker 2: Pepper and doing prog rock. To find someone who I

1212
01:12:27,596 --> 01:12:31,076
Speaker 2: think it was like an abandoned summer camp she recorded,

1213
01:12:31,236 --> 01:12:33,956
Speaker 2: or a deserted one. It was not in the summertime

1214
01:12:34,396 --> 01:12:36,236
Speaker 2: and they were just in cabins and set up a

1215
01:12:36,236 --> 01:12:41,796
Speaker 2: four track and it's just real and not echoee or anything.

1216
01:12:41,836 --> 01:12:44,596
Speaker 2: It's just it's a beautiful record. So I was with

1217
01:12:44,716 --> 01:12:47,636
Speaker 2: it the whole time, and she was always one of

1218
01:12:47,636 --> 01:12:51,836
Speaker 2: my favorite singers. When there's a guy named Hal Wilner

1219
01:12:51,876 --> 01:12:56,036
Speaker 2: who invented the tribute record, but he did real artful ones.

1220
01:12:56,116 --> 01:13:00,516
Speaker 2: You know. He did a a Nina Rota record, he did,

1221
01:13:01,756 --> 01:13:04,716
Speaker 2: he did a felonious Monk one that any Call was

1222
01:13:04,796 --> 01:13:07,876
Speaker 2: not was when we were just getting started and they

1223
01:13:07,876 --> 01:13:11,836
Speaker 2: were crazy records and everyone Carla Blaye was on it,

1224
01:13:11,876 --> 01:13:14,876
Speaker 2: and you can't out Carla Blade Carla Blaye, right, So

1225
01:13:14,916 --> 01:13:18,396
Speaker 2: everyone used it as an excuse to go outside, and

1226
01:13:18,476 --> 01:13:22,116
Speaker 2: you couldn't compete in that arena with the real outside people.

1227
01:13:23,076 --> 01:13:25,836
Speaker 2: So the next album, I thought, we're going to go

1228
01:13:25,876 --> 01:13:28,556
Speaker 2: in and we'll be so inside that we'll stand out

1229
01:13:28,596 --> 01:13:30,676
Speaker 2: that way. And so we came up with him. It

1230
01:13:30,716 --> 01:13:33,316
Speaker 2: was a Disney tribute album, and we came up with

1231
01:13:33,436 --> 01:13:37,916
Speaker 2: an arrangement really probably based around a Steve Cropper guitar

1232
01:13:38,036 --> 01:13:41,636
Speaker 2: part for baby Mine, which is this great sad song

1233
01:13:42,076 --> 01:13:46,436
Speaker 2: from Dumbo where the where the mother elephant gets locked

1234
01:13:46,516 --> 01:13:48,716
Speaker 2: up and the baby wants to go to sleep and

1235
01:13:48,796 --> 01:13:51,716
Speaker 2: puts her trunk in there and wants her mom out.

1236
01:13:52,916 --> 01:13:54,916
Speaker 2: So I just heard body Raight singing it and now

1237
01:13:54,996 --> 01:13:58,796
Speaker 2: put us together and we just clicked from the moment

1238
01:13:58,836 --> 01:14:04,876
Speaker 2: we met, and you know, we're still close. Man. I

1239
01:14:04,996 --> 01:14:07,916
Speaker 2: love her dearly. She's one of a kind body. And

1240
01:14:09,356 --> 01:14:11,636
Speaker 2: I went on my birthday this year. She was playing

1241
01:14:11,716 --> 01:14:13,956
Speaker 2: in Detroit and I was there at the Fox Theater.

1242
01:14:14,076 --> 01:14:16,676
Speaker 2: So I went to see her, and she just sounds

1243
01:14:17,116 --> 01:14:19,476
Speaker 2: as great as ever, maybe better than ever.

1244
01:14:19,836 --> 01:14:21,916
Speaker 1: She's amazing. Yeah, I think I have a bootleg of

1245
01:14:21,916 --> 01:14:25,036
Speaker 1: her performing at like A Yeah, I shouldn't say that.

1246
01:14:25,276 --> 01:14:30,156
Speaker 1: I think have a bootleg of her performing though whatever. George, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1247
01:14:30,716 --> 01:14:32,156
Speaker 1: sev one seventy years.

1248
01:14:32,196 --> 01:14:35,316
Speaker 2: They can't fign My Way Home? Yeah ye really good ship.

1249
01:14:35,396 --> 01:14:39,076
Speaker 2: Yeah really the radio station show, I think, yeah.

1250
01:14:38,916 --> 01:14:42,596
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, insane. Yeah, those those shows were bugged out.

1251
01:14:42,756 --> 01:14:44,236
Speaker 1: I think I like that son Rob from one of

1252
01:14:44,316 --> 01:14:50,116
Speaker 1: those things too, like whoa you know? Two more questions

1253
01:14:50,436 --> 01:14:53,676
Speaker 1: and I'll let you go. Man, you mded the Willie

1254
01:14:53,676 --> 01:14:56,596
Speaker 1: Nelson Ninetie you were? Were you also m D or

1255
01:14:56,956 --> 01:14:59,876
Speaker 1: you at least played in the band for the Dylan

1256
01:14:59,956 --> 01:15:01,236
Speaker 1: thirtieth I was.

1257
01:15:01,556 --> 01:15:04,196
Speaker 2: I played on some songs I went. Smith was the

1258
01:15:04,316 --> 01:15:06,116
Speaker 2: m D and most people played with the band that

1259
01:15:06,156 --> 01:15:08,196
Speaker 2: he put together. But I played with Willie and Chris

1260
01:15:08,236 --> 01:15:11,876
Speaker 2: Christofferson and Keltner played drums, and I think we had

1261
01:15:11,916 --> 01:15:15,076
Speaker 2: Reggie Young playing guitar. And then two days later Bob

1262
01:15:15,196 --> 01:15:18,796
Speaker 2: came I was making the record Across the Borderline with Willie,

1263
01:15:19,076 --> 01:15:22,116
Speaker 2: and Bob came in and sang a duet with him

1264
01:15:22,116 --> 01:15:26,196
Speaker 2: on the song Heartland. And that's the show that Snead

1265
01:15:26,196 --> 01:15:30,316
Speaker 2: O'Connor got booed off the stage on the Bobs at

1266
01:15:30,676 --> 01:15:32,836
Speaker 2: Bob thirty because it was a week after she ripped

1267
01:15:32,916 --> 01:15:35,676
Speaker 2: up the picture of the Pope on Saturday Night Live,

1268
01:15:36,196 --> 01:15:39,156
Speaker 2: so New York wasn't having her at the Garden and

1269
01:15:39,316 --> 01:15:42,716
Speaker 2: it was pretty heavy. Christofferson came out she couldn't sing,

1270
01:15:42,836 --> 01:15:46,556
Speaker 2: she couldn't do her song, and Willy saw that and

1271
01:15:46,596 --> 01:15:50,476
Speaker 2: he said, let's do a song with her. So she came.

1272
01:15:50,596 --> 01:15:53,836
Speaker 2: We did Don't give Up the Peter Gabriel song, and

1273
01:15:53,996 --> 01:15:59,116
Speaker 2: Shanaid sang the Kate Bush part. It's really a cool record.

1274
01:16:00,316 --> 01:16:02,316
Speaker 2: Of all the records I have ever worked on, I

1275
01:16:02,316 --> 01:16:05,796
Speaker 2: think across the borderline that album I made with Willie Nelson,

1276
01:16:06,196 --> 01:16:10,956
Speaker 2: it's the most overlooked and probably my favorite. Oh it

1277
01:16:11,196 --> 01:16:15,276
Speaker 2: just it's one that I put on I can disconnect

1278
01:16:15,356 --> 01:16:18,156
Speaker 2: myself from like thinking, oh man, we should have the

1279
01:16:18,196 --> 01:16:20,876
Speaker 2: tambourine is too loud or whatever, and I can listen

1280
01:16:20,876 --> 01:16:22,676
Speaker 2: to it and it just makes me feel good.

1281
01:16:22,836 --> 01:16:24,596
Speaker 1: I've listened it, but I haven't listened in a long time.

1282
01:16:24,596 --> 01:16:26,716
Speaker 2: And put that on the visit them. I'm real proud

1283
01:16:26,756 --> 01:16:27,316
Speaker 2: of that record.

1284
01:16:27,676 --> 01:16:32,796
Speaker 1: I was watching a some recording of Bob Geldoff in

1285
01:16:32,876 --> 01:16:39,356
Speaker 1: the studio with George Harrison and they were recording something

1286
01:16:40,316 --> 01:16:44,436
Speaker 1: and Bob asks George like, oh, have you heard this?

1287
01:16:44,516 --> 01:16:47,196
Speaker 1: Like they were talking about feedback, and then and Bob goes,

1288
01:16:47,276 --> 01:16:50,436
Speaker 1: I heard this great Neil record where it's just all feedback,

1289
01:16:50,476 --> 01:16:53,156
Speaker 1: this Neil Young records arc Welder. It's just like half

1290
01:16:53,236 --> 01:16:54,356
Speaker 1: his live and the other half it is just all

1291
01:16:54,396 --> 01:16:58,756
Speaker 1: feedback from the show. And George is like, I can't really, Neil,

1292
01:16:58,796 --> 01:17:01,836
Speaker 1: I don't know. We're playing at the Bop there and

1293
01:17:02,556 --> 01:17:05,516
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, someone starts slowly and I look

1294
01:17:05,596 --> 01:17:07,036
Speaker 1: over it and it's Neil and I have to look

1295
01:17:07,036 --> 01:17:08,716
Speaker 1: at He's like, I look at Eric and I said,

1296
01:17:11,116 --> 01:17:11,796
Speaker 1: what I tripped?

1297
01:17:11,796 --> 01:17:13,996
Speaker 2: The whole thing must have been, man, it was. It

1298
01:17:14,036 --> 01:17:17,716
Speaker 2: was quite a green room, that's for sure. Man. Yeah.

1299
01:17:18,076 --> 01:17:22,036
Speaker 2: The thing I remember most is being afraid to go

1300
01:17:22,196 --> 01:17:27,956
Speaker 2: up to Johnny Cash. And then I ended up producing

1301
01:17:28,116 --> 01:17:32,236
Speaker 2: The Highwaymen a couple of years later, maybe a year later,

1302
01:17:32,316 --> 01:17:34,316
Speaker 2: A couple of years later, I don't know, insane and

1303
01:17:35,596 --> 01:17:39,516
Speaker 2: he was he was such so approachable and so sweet. Man.

1304
01:17:39,636 --> 01:17:44,996
Speaker 2: He was a really nice guy. Yeah, and uh, what

1305
01:17:45,116 --> 01:17:48,116
Speaker 2: all Whalen was whaling? Great? Well, I didn't know Whalen.

1306
01:17:48,476 --> 01:17:51,596
Speaker 2: He was sober all the time I knew him. I

1307
01:17:51,636 --> 01:17:53,436
Speaker 2: met him a cut a duet with him that never

1308
01:17:53,476 --> 01:17:56,276
Speaker 2: came out with him and Bob Seegers for Bob Seegers

1309
01:17:56,276 --> 01:17:59,316
Speaker 2: record It's a really cool song, but Bob sitting on it.

1310
01:18:00,276 --> 01:18:03,516
Speaker 2: And I loved him. Man. He was a real soulful

1311
01:18:03,556 --> 01:18:08,556
Speaker 2: guy and a real good heart. He's another guy you

1312
01:18:08,596 --> 01:18:10,316
Speaker 2: know you would have afraid to go up and talk

1313
01:18:10,356 --> 01:18:14,596
Speaker 2: to him, but he was incredibly approachable. I remember going

1314
01:18:14,636 --> 01:18:18,236
Speaker 2: over to the Sunset Marquis and talking about I said,

1315
01:18:18,236 --> 01:18:20,676
Speaker 2: what kind of record you want to make? And he

1316
01:18:21,156 --> 01:18:25,116
Speaker 2: said I wanted to be like the like the Dylan

1317
01:18:25,156 --> 01:18:27,876
Speaker 2: album Oh Mercy. He said, I want to be wailing

1318
01:18:27,996 --> 01:18:31,916
Speaker 2: and do I think, but I want those atmospheric textures behind.

1319
01:18:33,156 --> 01:18:37,036
Speaker 2: I said, wow, okay, and then we tend to forget that.

1320
01:18:37,116 --> 01:18:40,956
Speaker 2: What a what a progressive character Wayne was that he

1321
01:18:41,076 --> 01:18:43,756
Speaker 2: was the first guy to cut the person national guy

1322
01:18:43,756 --> 01:18:46,076
Speaker 2: to cut a Stone song. I think he cut a

1323
01:18:46,156 --> 01:18:49,356
Speaker 2: Christofferson song before Johnny Cash. Did you know he was

1324
01:18:49,716 --> 01:18:52,636
Speaker 2: hip to all kinds of different writers and open to

1325
01:18:52,716 --> 01:18:55,836
Speaker 2: it and play with Buddy Holly. Yeah, Oh there's that too.

1326
01:18:57,196 --> 01:18:58,276
Speaker 2: What a guy like.

1327
01:18:58,636 --> 01:18:59,836
Speaker 1: What a career man.

1328
01:19:00,316 --> 01:19:04,236
Speaker 2: In retrospect, I'm glad I made all the records I

1329
01:19:04,316 --> 01:19:08,316
Speaker 2: made and got all those experiences, and I don't know

1330
01:19:08,396 --> 01:19:12,836
Speaker 2: that i'd changed, but I'm sorry that we didn't keep

1331
01:19:12,876 --> 01:19:17,036
Speaker 2: building that audience. Yeah, it's very interesting starting a band

1332
01:19:17,476 --> 01:19:23,916
Speaker 2: at age seventy three, right, and starting from scratch. You know,

1333
01:19:24,076 --> 01:19:28,076
Speaker 2: some places we're lucky if we can draw three hundred people.

1334
01:19:29,636 --> 01:19:35,476
Speaker 2: Sometimes you know, more people on stage. But it's so

1335
01:19:35,556 --> 01:19:39,116
Speaker 2: much fun just to start from scratch and build a

1336
01:19:39,196 --> 01:19:43,276
Speaker 2: thing up, go from city to city and then see

1337
01:19:44,276 --> 01:19:46,756
Speaker 2: get back there the next time and see twice as

1338
01:19:46,796 --> 01:19:49,076
Speaker 2: many people. That's a cool thing.

1339
01:19:49,156 --> 01:19:50,036
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're doing it.

1340
01:19:50,036 --> 01:19:50,236
Speaker 2: Man.

1341
01:19:50,316 --> 01:19:53,356
Speaker 1: It's a great album. And like I said, I mean

1342
01:19:53,436 --> 01:19:57,116
Speaker 1: just you know the way that album plays, it moves.

1343
01:19:57,556 --> 01:20:00,276
Speaker 1: There's such variety on it. But and I just loved

1344
01:20:00,276 --> 01:20:01,996
Speaker 1: that while they get something to the end, it's cameo

1345
01:20:02,116 --> 01:20:05,196
Speaker 1: and I'm hearing, like, you know, an echo of your

1346
01:20:05,596 --> 01:20:07,716
Speaker 1: your past in it, you know, And it's so cool.

1347
01:20:07,956 --> 01:20:09,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, man, will be better.

1348
01:20:10,196 --> 01:20:11,396
Speaker 1: Can do Is it cut?

1349
01:20:11,436 --> 01:20:12,036
Speaker 2: I'm working on it.

1350
01:20:12,036 --> 01:20:14,436
Speaker 1: It's not cut, No, okay, I can't wait to hear.

1351
01:20:16,516 --> 01:20:21,996
Speaker 1: Thanks Don, Thank you brother. An episode description you'll find

1352
01:20:21,996 --> 01:20:24,236
Speaker 1: a link to Don was his new album, Groove in

1353
01:20:24,236 --> 01:20:26,276
Speaker 1: the Face of Adversity, as well as a collection of

1354
01:20:26,316 --> 01:20:29,236
Speaker 1: songs he's produced throughout his career. Be sure to check

1355
01:20:29,236 --> 01:20:31,916
Speaker 1: out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast to see

1356
01:20:31,996 --> 01:20:34,596
Speaker 1: all of our video interviews, and be sure to follow

1357
01:20:34,676 --> 01:20:37,276
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at the Broken Record pot. You can

1358
01:20:37,316 --> 01:20:40,316
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is

1359
01:20:40,356 --> 01:20:42,756
Speaker 1: produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from

1360
01:20:42,796 --> 01:20:46,116
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday.

1361
01:20:46,876 --> 01:20:49,796
Speaker 1: Broken Record is production of Pushkin Industries. If you love

1362
01:20:49,836 --> 01:20:53,316
Speaker 1: this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.

1363
01:20:53,636 --> 01:20:56,716
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content

1364
01:20:56,796 --> 01:20:59,156
Speaker 1: and ad free listening for four ninety nine a month.

1365
01:20:59,276 --> 01:21:02,716
Speaker 1: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions and if

1366
01:21:02,716 --> 01:21:04,836
Speaker 1: you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and

1367
01:21:04,836 --> 01:21:07,316
Speaker 1: review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by

1368
01:21:07,356 --> 01:21:13,356
Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond Show