WEBVTT - TechStuff Goes Back To School 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.400 Get in text with technology with tech Stuff from hot 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:13.600 stuff dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tex Stuff. 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.599 I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. Today we're going to have 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.480 a little bit of a discussion with someone from Mozilla, 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:24.520 Danielle Dixon Thayer. Dnell's being very kind to join the 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:29.120 show and talk about concepts like privacy and security, particularly 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:32.479 for students who are back in school, and the conversations 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.120 that parents may want to have with students in order 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:37.560 to try and make sure that you know, people are 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:42.360 are following best practices when it comes to our Internet 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.680 behaviors and protecting ourselves and just being good net citizens. 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.959 And so I did an interview with Dnnell and you're 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.840 going to hear that coming up right now with me today. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.600 I am so thrilled to have her on the show. 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.560 I have Dnill Dixon Thayer, the chief legal and business 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.960 officer over at Mozilla. Danelle, thank you for joining the show. 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.679 Thank you for having me. Wonderful to be here, Jonathan, wonderful. 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.319 I have a couple of questions for you as we 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.039 before we really get into the meat of this. Now, 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:15.240 you work with Mozilla for those listeners out there who 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:17.800 may not be familiar with Mozilla. First of all, shame 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:19.840 on them because they haven't listened to all of my episodes. 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:24.920 I've definitely talked about them. Could you explain what Mozilla does? Yes? Great, 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:28.000 thank you for giving me that opportunity. So at Mozilla, 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:31.559 we have the Firefox Browser, which is our flagship product 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:36.360 that we help users to um figure out their online 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:37.920 life and how they want to be online and to 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:40.959 use the browser to get there, focusing on privacy and 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:46.520 security and choice and transparency. Mozilla very generally is also 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:51.680 about ensuring that the the open Web is sustained and 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:55.320 continues to grow. And we're a mission driven organization. We're 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:59.360 a nonprofit. We're focused on user centric design, whether that 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.040 be with respect to our products or the web itself 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:07.800 and with respect to education. So we really were unique 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:09.960 in terms of how we are and we're in tech. 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.440 Obviously we have a product in the technology space, but 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:15.720 we're unique in terms of our independence and how we 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:19.280 focus on broader issues that don't just impact us. They 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.560 impact the world and the web and users. And when 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.280 I think of Mozilla, this is one of those those 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:27.320 cases where I'm really thrilled to have a chance to 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:31.880 speak with someone who works with the organization, because I 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:35.440 often think Mozilla is an organization that that tries very 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:40.120 hard to fulfill what a lot of the the people 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.160 who worked on our BA net and the early Internet 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.240 and the Web all had in mind when they were 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.919 building out this amazing tool, this this piece of technology 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.720 that dwarfs anything else that humans have managed to make 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.720 so far. And a lot of them have this sort 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.720 of idealistic kind of vision of what how we were 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.720 supposed to use the Internet, And I feel like Mozilla 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:05.800 is really about, well, how can we make that a 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.280 reality and not just leave it to chance. Uh. Hopefully 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.120 I'm not being too putting too many words in your 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.320 mouth in that case, but that's always been sort of 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:18.840 the implication I have I have felt from the efforts 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.679 from Mozilla. Well, thank you for that. I think that's 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.799 exactly right. I think it's it's sometimes hard because we're 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.360 viewed as a company that's the text space, which we love, uh, 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.120 and we have, you know, three million plus users, and 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.040 so that's really crucial for us to be able to 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.200 have that impact globally that we want, and it's not 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.560 just impact through our product. You're absolutely right that we 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:45.560 focus on the Internet and standardization and security, but again 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.880 not related just to our browser. We use our browser 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.800 to help us walk the walk, if you will. UM, 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:53.960 we do a lot of talking the talk and trying 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.800 to get the Internet to be the focus. We look 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.000 at this the Internet as this amazing and largest globe 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.080 public asset that we all need to continue to grow. 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.160 And we have the luxury of having a shareholder that 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.200 is the Mozilla Foundation, So we have were beholden to 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:13.440 that foundation and the mission that that foundation set up. 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.440 And so I view us as incredibly unique in the space, 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.159 not just because of our structure, but because of the 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.400 focus that every single one of our employees as well 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.880 as our contributors and our community really want is this. 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.080 Everybody comes to us for different reasons, but the big 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:33.520 picture goal of sustaining this global asset is the most 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.960 important thing to all of us. Excellent and and today 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.920 we're really going to focus on something that I know 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.240 is of great concern to a lot of my listeners 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:45.240 out there, whether you are a student, whether your parents 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:49.000 of a student. We're going to talk about the issues 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:54.560 around privacy, around security, around protecting yourself or in the 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.000 case of a parent, making sure that your student is 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:00.440 well informed to protect him or herself a against the 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.919 pitfalls that we could encounter. And things are so different 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.400 from when I went to school. I'm old enough not 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:10.400 to go into the man when I was your age, 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:12.960 But I'm old enough that when I was going to school, 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.000 the Internet was not publicly accessible. It was something that 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.360 some research facilities were using, and really in the early 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.000 days it was our banet. Uh. Some research facilities and 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.360 some government facilities, some universities, they had access to this 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.440 kind of network of networks, but the general public did not. 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.800 The closest I got was dialing into a bulletin board 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.039 system on a dial up modem, and that gave me 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.680 a hint of what the Internet could potentially be, like 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.760 the tiniest of hints. It wasn't until I was in 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:45.320 college when the Internet became sort of this publicly accessible 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.000 entity that I really dove in. And back in those 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.000 days it was the wild West. No one was really 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.919 sure what the implications of this tool we're going to be. 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:57.880 Everyone set was going to change the world, but no 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.640 one was really sure how that was going to happen. Uh, 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.960 And there was a limit to the amount of stuff 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:07.640 you could do on the Internet things that you could access. 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.760 Since then, it has changed so dramatically it is a 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.960 completely different world. I wouldn't have a job if the 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.400 Internet didn't exist the way it does now. It's a robust, thriving, 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:24.080 evolving infrastructure. And that last word, evolving, I think is 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.560 perhaps the most important one, because even for the younger 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.960 parents out there who grew up using the Internet, things 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:36.240 change so quickly that it requires kind of a constant 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.760 updates for you to understand what the implications are. And 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.240 I think a lot of people just in general are 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:49.120 either unaware or they're only semi aware of issues like privacy, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.080 like how hard it can be to protect your privacy 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.839 if you aren't being cognizant of the various dangers that 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.680 are out there. In fact, let's talk about that. That 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:04.080 is a huge challenge maintaining at least some level of 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:09.200 privacy just because of the way that the various things 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.720 work with the Internet, including the Web. That would be obviously, 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:17.520 I would argue, probably the most uh frequent interface with 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.680 the Web that people are familiar with, maybe email, or 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:23.880 maybe some apps for smartphones, but the Web, I think 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.840 still is is the king of that and it's tough, right, 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.440 it is. It is a challenge to use the web 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:36.720 in a way where you are also maintaining a relative 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.440 sense of privacy because you have to be aware of 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.120 how the web works and what's going on in the background. 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:45.440 Can you speak a little bit to that. Yeah, so, 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.120 just I think it's really interesting in terms of just 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.800 to hear your story about your your engagement with the internet, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:53.600 and then of course the web today and the fact 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.240 that you said you wouldn't have a job. Many of 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:57.800 us wouldn't have a job if the web didn't exist 0:07:57.880 --> 0:07:59.280 in terms of the way it does today and if 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.840 the Internet was were built. Uh. And I think that 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.960 many folks don't understand even in the offline world, the 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.840 connection we used to call it brick and mortar back 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:09.960 in the early days, the connection between the brick and 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.840 mortar world and uh, the Internet and the web today 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:17.440 is so so um so close. And so the way 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:21.720 that the Web has opened up just the kinds of 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:23.920 jobs and the types of jobs that are out there 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:26.560 is so crucial and important for us to remember. And 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:28.960 I like to think about the fact that and this 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.000 is I don't know the numbers. I'm sitting here and 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.360 I wish I did. But the Web is nothing more 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.920 than maybe ten thousand days old, and if you think 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.600 about it from that standpoint, it's really in its infancy. 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.000 And so you said wild wild West, and I say, 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.360 it's still kind of is the wild wild West, and 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:46.200 it's so subject to grooming and to protecting and to 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.360 figuring out how to get there. Privacy is one of 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.040 the things that I think is um so crucial to 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.199 some folks. And depending on where you sit, I personally 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:59.240 and not someone who hyper focuses on my own privacy. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.880 I understand and how the internet works. I understand how 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.200 the web connects to that. I understand that there's a 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.480 lot of use of my data. So and I have 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.319 a basic knowledge and maybe more than basic of digital literacy, 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.640 so I get it. Um So for me, I am 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:16.959 willing to do that value exchange and to allow my 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.520 data to be used to be able to provide me 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.920 services that I think are very interesting and important. When 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.160 it comes to my kids, though, I'm much more protective 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.760 about that data and how that data flows, and so 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.120 I do take a more active role when it comes 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.280 to them. And you're right, it is hard. It shouldn't 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.880 be quite as hard as it is. Uh, and this 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.600 is one of the things that we're trying to do 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:44.000 Mozilla from the standpoint of focusing on education, not just 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.880 educating users by the way, which I think is crucial 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.079 for us to continue to try to do just as 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.360 technology companies, even though it's hard because some users I 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:54.120 don't want to take the time. The web is a 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:56.480 very simple thing to be able to utilize, and so 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.840 they don't want to necessarily take the time to do that, 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.440 which is fine and they're right, um, but what we 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.680 need to do as technology companies is make it easier, 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:11.200 more transparent in context for users to understand what's happening 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.320 with their data so that they're not confused when they 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:18.440 subsequently get a notice excuse me, or an ad um 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.680 or something that they make them you know, kind of 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:23.880 raise our eyebrows and say, well, why am I getting 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.080 this when I looked at this yesterday and I'm on 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:29.600 a completely different website today. These are the kinds of 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:31.840 things that we need to figure out how to do 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.800 in a very innovative and aggressive way to provide in 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:41.560 context notifications to to folks about what's happening. There obviously 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.760 are really good tools out there you know, if you 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.520 want to, for example, just use take Firefox. There's private 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.600 browsing that the folks can use to be able to 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.280 really protect the flow of their data to third parties 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.280 and to really know what's happening with that. There's a 0:10:57.360 --> 0:10:59.800 lot of other add ons that you can attach to 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.240 our Fox and figure out how you you know, whether 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:05.040 it's you're trying to block certain types of content or 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.800 you really are focused on understanding who's collecting your data, 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.080 you can do that better. So there are lots of 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:15.640 tools available, but sometimes users feel inundated by tools um 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.199 and not and not really understanding how to utilize them. 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.800 And so we as technology companies need to really focus 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:27.600 on our ability to provide that in context help for 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:29.880 users so that they don't have to spend the time 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.920 doing that if they don't choose to. So it's hard, 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.520 it should be easier. I think we're working towards a 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:37.880 world where it's going to have to be easier because 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.439 users are demanding that. And so I hope that the 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.000 web we see in the years to come is a 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.680 more transparent web that offers users the choice and the 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.920 opportunity to be able to educate themselves and to figure 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:58.400 out how they want to approach things. Now, you you 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:03.080 touched on so many things that I feel exactly the 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.920 same way, very strongly about uh. I As as someone 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:12.240 who has a somewhat public facing profile, I came to 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.800 the conclusion that uh that you know, I'm alright trading 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:19.040 off some of this sense of privacy in order to 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.959 receive not just the benefits that that people would have 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.920 when browsing the web, you know, getting things like those 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:30.040 contextual ads, the ads that are replying to things like 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.360 they know about my browsers search. I mean, the easy 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:35.080 example we give tends to be Amazon. If you're on 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.640 Amazon and it just keeps track of what you've been 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.400 shopping for, so it starts giving you suggestions based upon 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.000 what other shoppers have purchased. But that, of course is 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.319 just a tiny little example of something that stretches far 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.880 beyond just Amazon and across multiple pages, not just a 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.720 single one. If you've ever browsed a website and you 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:57.280 thought this is really weird because I'm looking at ads 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.440 for other stuff that I watch. But I don't know 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.200 why these two companies would have any association with each other. 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.120 It's because of stuff that's going on in the background, 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.520 and when you're aware of it, and if you are, 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.040 if you are comfortable with it, it's not such a 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.560 big deal. But another thing you kind of touched on 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.240 is with privacy being being kind of challenging it it 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:24.240 is super challenging in an era where more companies are 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:28.040 receiving more information about us that's not directly tied to 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.800 who we are as human beings, but it's tied to 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.880 our behaviors, and those behaviors become very indicative of specific 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:40.200 types of individuals. And I have often argued that for 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:45.120 some companies, at least what your name is isn't really important. 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.080 They don't care. But the fact that you're you, you 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.079 represent a collection of behaviors that they can market to, 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:56.560 means that the information surrounding you is incredibly valuable. And 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.600 the flip side of this is it does not take 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.800 too many points of data for someone who is determined 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.600 to figure out the identity of a person to actually 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.800 do that. We've seen studies where just with maybe four 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.079 or five points of data, you could identify eight percent 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.280 of the people within a specific zip code, and that 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.320 can be a real eye opener to people who aren't 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:25.160 aware that it doesn't take much for for you to 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.480 have your privacy become a thing of the past, and 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.640 you weren't weren't even aware of it. You you were 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.920 unconscious of the whole thing. So clearly, for for parents 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.040 who are concerned about their their kids who are going 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.680 into school, there are a lot of different issues. What 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:46.520 are some of the solutions apart from the plugins, like 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.400 what what are things? Were some conversations that should be 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.680 happening between parents and students just to make sure that 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.080 there's kind of a common understanding of what to expect 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.080 and and sort of kind of the best practices of 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:04.640 responsible web citizenship. So that's a great question and one 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.200 that I have to admit that I asked myself often. 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.720 I have three boys. I have a fifteen year old, 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:13.320 a twelve year old U thirteen actually can just turned thirteen, 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.720 and a seven year old, and I am constantly dealing 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.120 with the issue of how they can get access to 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.040 this this asset that I think is so amazing, but 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.880 also understand it so that they understand how they're engaging 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.280 with it. And you know, part of it for me 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:32.840 is coming from a lot of what I've learned here 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.480 working with Mozilla and just being a part of this 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.560 awesome community is so much of it stems from trust, 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.960 and it's the trust about trusting the web and us 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:45.680 being that pillar of you know, making sure that we're 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.720 doing right by our users so that the users can 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.160 trust us. I frankly think that that has to be 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.520 the same way that you try to get your children 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.800 to engage with the web and frankly with you, um. 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:57.720 And what I mean by that is so much of 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.680 what kids can do on the web you can't stop 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.080 them from doing because they're not only going to have 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.720 access to the computer at your home, they're going to 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:07.760 have access at school, They're going to have access to 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.240 their friends, and also, frankly, most of them have phones 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.400 that have access um to the web. And so what 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.960 I've tried to do with respect to to my kids, 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.120 which I can't say is that is the right way, 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:19.840 but I'm going to say it's the right way for us, 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.320 is to establish that relationship of trust that they understand 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.840 that I'm going to try to help them to navigate 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.200 this world that I mostly understand in terms of the 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.600 Web in a way that I think is safe for them, 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.360 because it's actually just about giving them knowledge. UM so 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.120 not my kids aren't really big into social media, but 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.120 my thirteen year old really really wanted to have um 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.800 an account, a Snapchat account, which I think it's a 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.800 really interesting product, and I knew of the service myself. 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.160 But the way that I did this with them with 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.000 him when he was really focused on it is I said, Okay, 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.680 I want you to go and read the top five 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.720 articles about things that have happened with respect to Snapchat 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.000 for UM for kids in terms of how they've used 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:02.840 it and what are the you know, what kinds of 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:06.160 contents have gotten people into trouble. And then I also 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.120 want you to pull down the privacy policy. I want 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:09.280 you to print it out, and I want us to 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.040 talk about what these things mean. And so I engaged 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.159 with him on that level of trying to create that 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:19.359 basic web literacy and that understanding about sharing information publicly, 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.399 sometimes in a public profile, or even privately amongst your 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.600 social circle, so that you could understand what happens later, 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.879 What happens if you receive a photo that's technically that 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.159 maybe has you know, too much skin in it and 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.960 could actually be something that violates laws in certain regions. UM, 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.359 what happens, What happens if you say that photo and 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:39.719 you have it on your on your phone. These are 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.040 things that kids don't think about. And this is what 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.679 the web offers to us, good and bad, right, And 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.440 I think so much of it is trying to establish 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:52.199 that relationship of having them understand basic information about the 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.240 web and also giving them the tools to be able 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.119 to figure this stuff out for them later. Uh. And 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.679 so that's how I've engaged with them in terms of 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:06.040 this technology debate, and it's been a really good discussion 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.760 about it. You know, we took what we learned in 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.679 the offline world about advertising and we put it in 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:14.760 the online world in the very early days without a 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.359 lot of knowledge or or understanding about where the web 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.960 was going to go. And and now we are to 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.000 a place where lots of companies have lots of information 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.720 about you that you may not know. And certainly my 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:31.040 children had no insight or visibility into that. And it's 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.760 not like a super easy system to understand. And so 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:36.880 that's been one of the things that I've also tried 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.119 to explain to them about how the web works and 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:41.800 the web economy. You know, it's really important to understand 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.560 that in order for folks like you and others to 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:46.600 be able to get content out on the web that's 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.600 incredibly valuable, we need to be able to, you know, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:51.520 understand that we might be giving a little bit of 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:53.840 ourselves to be able to do that. And that means 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.280 that it could mean that you're just the fact that 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.280 you're looking at advertising, or the fact that you know 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.560 they're getting day to about your browser number too and 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:06.080 what that browser number has looked at in various different forms. 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.520 And so it's not that different from the offline world 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.639 of years ago, when I lived in a very small 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.320 town and I would go to the local store and 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.600 I would buy something, and then they would be able 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:18.439 to call my mom and tell my mom that, you know, 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.639 Danelle came here and she purchased two lollipops, and I 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.159 just want you to know that's what she's doing on 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:25.879 her way home from school. That actually happened in my 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.359 small town. And so it's not that different. It's just 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.760 on a more massive scale. So that's how I try 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.400 to have that conversation with them and to give them 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.640 the tools to understand the system a little bit better. 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:38.719 And I think I think it's also important to remember 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.919 especially for people in my generation. So you know, I 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.919 grew up before the Internet was really accessible, so it 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.119 wasn't an issue for kids. We didn't have to that 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.480 wasn't something that the parents need to be concerned about 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.080 because it was a non factor, And it wasn't until 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.200 after I was in college when I started getting access 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.280 to this. There. I think there was a bit of 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:03.640 an idea around people about my generation, maybe a little 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.160 bit younger than I was, that the folks who grow 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:10.680 up using the tools because they've existed ever since the 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:15.199 kid was born, will somehow have a magical affinity and 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.199 understand all the ins and outs. Now, the truth of 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:21.600 the matter is that a lot of kids can pick 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:25.840 up how to use the Internet pretty effectively, maybe in 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.879 a very narrow way. Actually turns out that you you 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.320 do need to give guidance to children in order for 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.439 them to understand really how to use the internet in 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.919 in uh productive ways. We've seen so many studies that 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.520 showed kids who had had access to the internet uh 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:48.160 since they were born still aren't the best at doing 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.000 an Internet search, for example, And that's just one simple 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:53.520 example of that. So I think it's very important for 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.600 people to remember that just because something has been around 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.560 for a person's entire life does not magically mean that 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.240 person has a deep understanding of how it works and 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.200 the implications of the way it works. So don't take 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.560 it for granted that someone like even if they seem 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.600 to be wizards on the web, if you feel like 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.960 they have completely outpaced you, it does not necessarily mean 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.760 that they have that understanding, and it is really valuable. 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.640 I agree. I think trust is incredibly important. I say 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:26.920 that as someone who does not have children, so this 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.400 is a bit of me just kind of armchair parenting, 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.040 which I apologize for to all the actual parents out there, 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.439 but I say that, you know, trust is a big issue, 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.439