1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Get in text with technology with tech Stuff from hot 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: stuff dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tex Stuff. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. Today we're going to have 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: a little bit of a discussion with someone from Mozilla, 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: Danielle Dixon Thayer. Dnell's being very kind to join the 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: show and talk about concepts like privacy and security, particularly 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: for students who are back in school, and the conversations 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: that parents may want to have with students in order 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: to try and make sure that you know, people are 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: are following best practices when it comes to our Internet 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: behaviors and protecting ourselves and just being good net citizens. 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,959 Speaker 1: And so I did an interview with Dnnell and you're 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: going to hear that coming up right now with me today. 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: I am so thrilled to have her on the show. 15 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: I have Dnill Dixon Thayer, the chief legal and business 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: officer over at Mozilla. Danelle, thank you for joining the show. 17 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. Wonderful to be here, Jonathan, wonderful. 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: I have a couple of questions for you as we 19 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: before we really get into the meat of this. Now, 20 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: you work with Mozilla for those listeners out there who 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: may not be familiar with Mozilla. First of all, shame 22 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: on them because they haven't listened to all of my episodes. 23 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: I've definitely talked about them. Could you explain what Mozilla does? Yes? Great, 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: thank you for giving me that opportunity. So at Mozilla, 25 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 1: we have the Firefox Browser, which is our flagship product 26 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: that we help users to um figure out their online 27 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: life and how they want to be online and to 28 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: use the browser to get there, focusing on privacy and 29 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: security and choice and transparency. Mozilla very generally is also 30 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: about ensuring that the the open Web is sustained and 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: continues to grow. And we're a mission driven organization. We're 32 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: a nonprofit. We're focused on user centric design, whether that 33 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: be with respect to our products or the web itself 34 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: and with respect to education. So we really were unique 35 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: in terms of how we are and we're in tech. 36 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: Obviously we have a product in the technology space, but 37 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: we're unique in terms of our independence and how we 38 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: focus on broader issues that don't just impact us. They 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: impact the world and the web and users. And when 40 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: I think of Mozilla, this is one of those those 41 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: cases where I'm really thrilled to have a chance to 42 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: speak with someone who works with the organization, because I 43 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: often think Mozilla is an organization that that tries very 44 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: hard to fulfill what a lot of the the people 45 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: who worked on our BA net and the early Internet 46 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: and the Web all had in mind when they were 47 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: building out this amazing tool, this this piece of technology 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: that dwarfs anything else that humans have managed to make 49 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: so far. And a lot of them have this sort 50 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: of idealistic kind of vision of what how we were 51 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: supposed to use the Internet, And I feel like Mozilla 52 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: is really about, well, how can we make that a 53 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: reality and not just leave it to chance. Uh. Hopefully 54 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: I'm not being too putting too many words in your 55 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: mouth in that case, but that's always been sort of 56 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: the implication I have I have felt from the efforts 57 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: from Mozilla. Well, thank you for that. I think that's 58 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 1: exactly right. I think it's it's sometimes hard because we're 59 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: viewed as a company that's the text space, which we love, uh, 60 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: and we have, you know, three million plus users, and 61 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: so that's really crucial for us to be able to 62 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: have that impact globally that we want, and it's not 63 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: just impact through our product. You're absolutely right that we 64 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: focus on the Internet and standardization and security, but again 65 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: not related just to our browser. We use our browser 66 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: to help us walk the walk, if you will. UM, 67 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: we do a lot of talking the talk and trying 68 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: to get the Internet to be the focus. We look 69 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: at this the Internet as this amazing and largest globe 70 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: public asset that we all need to continue to grow. 71 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: And we have the luxury of having a shareholder that 72 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: is the Mozilla Foundation, So we have were beholden to 73 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: that foundation and the mission that that foundation set up. 74 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: And so I view us as incredibly unique in the space, 75 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: not just because of our structure, but because of the 76 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: focus that every single one of our employees as well 77 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: as our contributors and our community really want is this. 78 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: Everybody comes to us for different reasons, but the big 79 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: picture goal of sustaining this global asset is the most 80 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: important thing to all of us. Excellent and and today 81 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: we're really going to focus on something that I know 82 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: is of great concern to a lot of my listeners 83 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: out there, whether you are a student, whether your parents 84 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: of a student. We're going to talk about the issues 85 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: around privacy, around security, around protecting yourself or in the 86 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: case of a parent, making sure that your student is 87 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: well informed to protect him or herself a against the 88 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: pitfalls that we could encounter. And things are so different 89 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: from when I went to school. I'm old enough not 90 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: to go into the man when I was your age, 91 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: But I'm old enough that when I was going to school, 92 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: the Internet was not publicly accessible. It was something that 93 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: some research facilities were using, and really in the early 94 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: days it was our banet. Uh. Some research facilities and 95 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: some government facilities, some universities, they had access to this 96 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: kind of network of networks, but the general public did not. 97 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: The closest I got was dialing into a bulletin board 98 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: system on a dial up modem, and that gave me 99 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: a hint of what the Internet could potentially be, like 100 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: the tiniest of hints. It wasn't until I was in 101 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: college when the Internet became sort of this publicly accessible 102 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: entity that I really dove in. And back in those 103 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: days it was the wild West. No one was really 104 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: sure what the implications of this tool we're going to be. 105 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: Everyone set was going to change the world, but no 106 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: one was really sure how that was going to happen. Uh, 107 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: And there was a limit to the amount of stuff 108 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: you could do on the Internet things that you could access. 109 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: Since then, it has changed so dramatically it is a 110 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: completely different world. I wouldn't have a job if the 111 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: Internet didn't exist the way it does now. It's a robust, thriving, 112 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: evolving infrastructure. And that last word, evolving, I think is 113 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: perhaps the most important one, because even for the younger 114 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: parents out there who grew up using the Internet, things 115 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: change so quickly that it requires kind of a constant 116 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: updates for you to understand what the implications are. And 117 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people just in general are 118 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: either unaware or they're only semi aware of issues like privacy, 119 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: like how hard it can be to protect your privacy 120 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: if you aren't being cognizant of the various dangers that 121 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: are out there. In fact, let's talk about that. That 122 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: is a huge challenge maintaining at least some level of 123 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: privacy just because of the way that the various things 124 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: work with the Internet, including the Web. That would be obviously, 125 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: I would argue, probably the most uh frequent interface with 126 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: the Web that people are familiar with, maybe email, or 127 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: maybe some apps for smartphones, but the Web, I think 128 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: still is is the king of that and it's tough, right, 129 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: it is. It is a challenge to use the web 130 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: in a way where you are also maintaining a relative 131 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: sense of privacy because you have to be aware of 132 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: how the web works and what's going on in the background. 133 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: Can you speak a little bit to that. Yeah, so, 134 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: just I think it's really interesting in terms of just 135 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: to hear your story about your your engagement with the internet, 136 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: and then of course the web today and the fact 137 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: that you said you wouldn't have a job. Many of 138 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: us wouldn't have a job if the web didn't exist 139 00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: in terms of the way it does today and if 140 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: the Internet was were built. Uh. And I think that 141 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: many folks don't understand even in the offline world, the 142 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: connection we used to call it brick and mortar back 143 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: in the early days, the connection between the brick and 144 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: mortar world and uh, the Internet and the web today 145 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: is so so um so close. And so the way 146 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: that the Web has opened up just the kinds of 147 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: jobs and the types of jobs that are out there 148 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: is so crucial and important for us to remember. And 149 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: I like to think about the fact that and this 150 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: is I don't know the numbers. I'm sitting here and 151 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: I wish I did. But the Web is nothing more 152 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: than maybe ten thousand days old, and if you think 153 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: about it from that standpoint, it's really in its infancy. 154 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: And so you said wild wild West, and I say, 155 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: it's still kind of is the wild wild West, and 156 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: it's so subject to grooming and to protecting and to 157 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: figuring out how to get there. Privacy is one of 158 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: the things that I think is um so crucial to 159 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 1: some folks. And depending on where you sit, I personally 160 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: and not someone who hyper focuses on my own privacy. 161 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: I understand and how the internet works. I understand how 162 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: the web connects to that. I understand that there's a 163 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: lot of use of my data. So and I have 164 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: a basic knowledge and maybe more than basic of digital literacy, 165 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: so I get it. Um So for me, I am 166 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: willing to do that value exchange and to allow my 167 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: data to be used to be able to provide me 168 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: services that I think are very interesting and important. When 169 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: it comes to my kids, though, I'm much more protective 170 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: about that data and how that data flows, and so 171 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: I do take a more active role when it comes 172 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: to them. And you're right, it is hard. It shouldn't 173 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: be quite as hard as it is. Uh, and this 174 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: is one of the things that we're trying to do 175 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: Mozilla from the standpoint of focusing on education, not just 176 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: educating users by the way, which I think is crucial 177 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: for us to continue to try to do just as 178 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: technology companies, even though it's hard because some users I 179 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: don't want to take the time. The web is a 180 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: very simple thing to be able to utilize, and so 181 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: they don't want to necessarily take the time to do that, 182 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: which is fine and they're right, um, but what we 183 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: need to do as technology companies is make it easier, 184 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: more transparent in context for users to understand what's happening 185 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: with their data so that they're not confused when they 186 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: subsequently get a notice excuse me, or an ad um 187 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: or something that they make them you know, kind of 188 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: raise our eyebrows and say, well, why am I getting 189 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: this when I looked at this yesterday and I'm on 190 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: a completely different website today. These are the kinds of 191 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: things that we need to figure out how to do 192 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: in a very innovative and aggressive way to provide in 193 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: context notifications to to folks about what's happening. There obviously 194 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: are really good tools out there you know, if you 195 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: want to, for example, just use take Firefox. There's private 196 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: browsing that the folks can use to be able to 197 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: really protect the flow of their data to third parties 198 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: and to really know what's happening with that. There's a 199 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: lot of other add ons that you can attach to 200 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: our Fox and figure out how you you know, whether 201 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: it's you're trying to block certain types of content or 202 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: you really are focused on understanding who's collecting your data, 203 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: you can do that better. So there are lots of 204 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: tools available, but sometimes users feel inundated by tools um 205 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: and not and not really understanding how to utilize them. 206 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: And so we as technology companies need to really focus 207 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: on our ability to provide that in context help for 208 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: users so that they don't have to spend the time 209 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: doing that if they don't choose to. So it's hard, 210 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: it should be easier. I think we're working towards a 211 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: world where it's going to have to be easier because 212 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: users are demanding that. And so I hope that the 213 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: web we see in the years to come is a 214 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: more transparent web that offers users the choice and the 215 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: opportunity to be able to educate themselves and to figure 216 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: out how they want to approach things. Now, you you 217 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: touched on so many things that I feel exactly the 218 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: same way, very strongly about uh. I As as someone 219 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: who has a somewhat public facing profile, I came to 220 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: the conclusion that uh that you know, I'm alright trading 221 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: off some of this sense of privacy in order to 222 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: receive not just the benefits that that people would have 223 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: when browsing the web, you know, getting things like those 224 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: contextual ads, the ads that are replying to things like 225 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: they know about my browsers search. I mean, the easy 226 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: example we give tends to be Amazon. If you're on 227 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: Amazon and it just keeps track of what you've been 228 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: shopping for, so it starts giving you suggestions based upon 229 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: what other shoppers have purchased. But that, of course is 230 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: just a tiny little example of something that stretches far 231 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: beyond just Amazon and across multiple pages, not just a 232 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: single one. If you've ever browsed a website and you 233 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: thought this is really weird because I'm looking at ads 234 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: for other stuff that I watch. But I don't know 235 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: why these two companies would have any association with each other. 236 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: It's because of stuff that's going on in the background, 237 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: and when you're aware of it, and if you are, 238 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: if you are comfortable with it, it's not such a 239 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: big deal. But another thing you kind of touched on 240 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: is with privacy being being kind of challenging it it 241 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: is super challenging in an era where more companies are 242 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: receiving more information about us that's not directly tied to 243 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: who we are as human beings, but it's tied to 244 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: our behaviors, and those behaviors become very indicative of specific 245 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: types of individuals. And I have often argued that for 246 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: some companies, at least what your name is isn't really important. 247 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: They don't care. But the fact that you're you, you 248 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,079 Speaker 1: represent a collection of behaviors that they can market to, 249 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: means that the information surrounding you is incredibly valuable. And 250 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: the flip side of this is it does not take 251 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: too many points of data for someone who is determined 252 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: to figure out the identity of a person to actually 253 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: do that. We've seen studies where just with maybe four 254 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: or five points of data, you could identify eight percent 255 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: of the people within a specific zip code, and that 256 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: can be a real eye opener to people who aren't 257 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: aware that it doesn't take much for for you to 258 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: have your privacy become a thing of the past, and 259 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: you weren't weren't even aware of it. You you were 260 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: unconscious of the whole thing. So clearly, for for parents 261 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: who are concerned about their their kids who are going 262 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: into school, there are a lot of different issues. What 263 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: are some of the solutions apart from the plugins, like 264 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: what what are things? Were some conversations that should be 265 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: happening between parents and students just to make sure that 266 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: there's kind of a common understanding of what to expect 267 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: and and sort of kind of the best practices of 268 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: responsible web citizenship. So that's a great question and one 269 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: that I have to admit that I asked myself often. 270 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: I have three boys. I have a fifteen year old, 271 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: a twelve year old U thirteen actually can just turned thirteen, 272 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: and a seven year old, and I am constantly dealing 273 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: with the issue of how they can get access to 274 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: this this asset that I think is so amazing, but 275 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: also understand it so that they understand how they're engaging 276 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: with it. And you know, part of it for me 277 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: is coming from a lot of what I've learned here 278 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: working with Mozilla and just being a part of this 279 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: awesome community is so much of it stems from trust, 280 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: and it's the trust about trusting the web and us 281 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: being that pillar of you know, making sure that we're 282 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: doing right by our users so that the users can 283 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: trust us. I frankly think that that has to be 284 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: the same way that you try to get your children 285 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: to engage with the web and frankly with you, um. 286 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is so much of 287 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: what kids can do on the web you can't stop 288 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: them from doing because they're not only going to have 289 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: access to the computer at your home, they're going to 290 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: have access at school, They're going to have access to 291 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: their friends, and also, frankly, most of them have phones 292 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: that have access um to the web. And so what 293 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: I've tried to do with respect to to my kids, 294 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: which I can't say is that is the right way, 295 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: but I'm going to say it's the right way for us, 296 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: is to establish that relationship of trust that they understand 297 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: that I'm going to try to help them to navigate 298 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: this world that I mostly understand in terms of the 299 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: Web in a way that I think is safe for them, 300 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: because it's actually just about giving them knowledge. UM so 301 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: not my kids aren't really big into social media, but 302 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: my thirteen year old really really wanted to have um 303 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: an account, a Snapchat account, which I think it's a 304 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: really interesting product, and I knew of the service myself. 305 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: But the way that I did this with them with 306 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: him when he was really focused on it is I said, Okay, 307 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: I want you to go and read the top five 308 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: articles about things that have happened with respect to Snapchat 309 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: for UM for kids in terms of how they've used 310 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: it and what are the you know, what kinds of 311 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: contents have gotten people into trouble. And then I also 312 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: want you to pull down the privacy policy. I want 313 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: you to print it out, and I want us to 314 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: talk about what these things mean. And so I engaged 315 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: with him on that level of trying to create that 316 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: basic web literacy and that understanding about sharing information publicly, 317 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: sometimes in a public profile, or even privately amongst your 318 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: social circle, so that you could understand what happens later, 319 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: What happens if you receive a photo that's technically that 320 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: maybe has you know, too much skin in it and 321 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: could actually be something that violates laws in certain regions. UM, 322 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: what happens, What happens if you say that photo and 323 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 1: you have it on your on your phone. These are 324 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: things that kids don't think about. And this is what 325 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: the web offers to us, good and bad, right, And 326 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: I think so much of it is trying to establish 327 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: that relationship of having them understand basic information about the 328 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: web and also giving them the tools to be able 329 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: to figure this stuff out for them later. Uh. And 330 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: so that's how I've engaged with them in terms of 331 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: this technology debate, and it's been a really good discussion 332 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: about it. You know, we took what we learned in 333 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: the offline world about advertising and we put it in 334 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: the online world in the very early days without a 335 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: lot of knowledge or or understanding about where the web 336 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: was going to go. And and now we are to 337 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: a place where lots of companies have lots of information 338 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: about you that you may not know. And certainly my 339 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: children had no insight or visibility into that. And it's 340 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: not like a super easy system to understand. And so 341 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: that's been one of the things that I've also tried 342 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: to explain to them about how the web works and 343 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: the web economy. You know, it's really important to understand 344 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: that in order for folks like you and others to 345 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: be able to get content out on the web that's 346 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: incredibly valuable, we need to be able to, you know, 347 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: understand that we might be giving a little bit of 348 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: ourselves to be able to do that. And that means 349 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: that it could mean that you're just the fact that 350 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: you're looking at advertising, or the fact that you know 351 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: they're getting day to about your browser number too and 352 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: what that browser number has looked at in various different forms. 353 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: And so it's not that different from the offline world 354 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: of years ago, when I lived in a very small 355 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: town and I would go to the local store and 356 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: I would buy something, and then they would be able 357 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: to call my mom and tell my mom that, you know, 358 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: Danelle came here and she purchased two lollipops, and I 359 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: just want you to know that's what she's doing on 360 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: her way home from school. That actually happened in my 361 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: small town. And so it's not that different. It's just 362 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: on a more massive scale. So that's how I try 363 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: to have that conversation with them and to give them 364 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: the tools to understand the system a little bit better. 365 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,719 Speaker 1: And I think I think it's also important to remember 366 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: especially for people in my generation. So you know, I 367 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: grew up before the Internet was really accessible, so it 368 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: wasn't an issue for kids. We didn't have to that 369 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: wasn't something that the parents need to be concerned about 370 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: because it was a non factor, And it wasn't until 371 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: after I was in college when I started getting access 372 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: to this. There. I think there was a bit of 373 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: an idea around people about my generation, maybe a little 374 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: bit younger than I was, that the folks who grow 375 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: up using the tools because they've existed ever since the 376 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: kid was born, will somehow have a magical affinity and 377 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: understand all the ins and outs. Now, the truth of 378 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: the matter is that a lot of kids can pick 379 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: up how to use the Internet pretty effectively, maybe in 380 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: a very narrow way. Actually turns out that you you 381 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: do need to give guidance to children in order for 382 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: them to understand really how to use the internet in 383 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: in uh productive ways. We've seen so many studies that 384 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: showed kids who had had access to the internet uh 385 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: since they were born still aren't the best at doing 386 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: an Internet search, for example, And that's just one simple 387 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: example of that. So I think it's very important for 388 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: people to remember that just because something has been around 389 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: for a person's entire life does not magically mean that 390 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: person has a deep understanding of how it works and 391 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: the implications of the way it works. So don't take 392 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: it for granted that someone like even if they seem 393 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: to be wizards on the web, if you feel like 394 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: they have completely outpaced you, it does not necessarily mean 395 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: that they have that understanding, and it is really valuable. 396 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: I agree. I think trust is incredibly important. I say 397 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: that as someone who does not have children, so this 398 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: is a bit of me just kind of armchair parenting, 399 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: which I apologize for to all the actual parents out there, 400 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: but I say that, you know, trust is a big issue, 401 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 1: and also just the idea of instilling the value of 402 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: compassion uh in kids as well, because one of the 403 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: issues that has been a problem throughout history but has 404 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: been exacerbated in the age of the Internet obviously, is 405 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: the problem of bullying, especially since I think there's certain 406 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: aspects to internet culture that distant bully from the effects 407 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: of the bullies actions on a person, and in that 408 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: so there's some desensitizing going on, there's some there's some distancing, 409 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: and the actual effects can be devastating. So when it 410 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: comes to the concepts of bullying and protecting yourself against 411 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: bullies or making certain that you yourself don't engage in 412 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,239 Speaker 1: those behaviors, do you have any words of advice on 413 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: that subject? Well, yeah, I think that. And that's it's 414 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: so funny when you think about um back in the 415 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: day when instant message was new and you found yourself 416 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: saying things an instant message that you wouldn't necessarily say 417 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: on a phone call. It's very similar. Right. We suffer 418 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: from it too as adults, so it's not the same. 419 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: It's not any different from children. So I feel like 420 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is crucial, and 421 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,959 Speaker 1: I've tried to really really instill this in my boys, 422 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: is the fact that the web and what you put 423 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: out there remains out there. And and I use examples 424 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: of and I have these conversations with them, and I 425 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: want to say, like at the outset of this that 426 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 1: this stuff is hard because it's hard to keep up 427 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: with the technology. So you kind of have to go 428 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: to principles because I have to say that I don't 429 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: know every single service that's out there, and I learned 430 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: about them every day from you know, just being in 431 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: the tech sector. But I also can't go deep on them. 432 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: But my kids have a different sense because their friends 433 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: are the ones who are talking about these different things. 434 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: And so I don't want to scare parents into thinking 435 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: that they need to know all of the technology that exists. 436 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: I think starting at that base level principle of okay, 437 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: the web is different than you know. You can write 438 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: something down on a piece of paper, and when I 439 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: was a kid, you wrote that note to one friend, 440 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: and that note might have circulated around to other friends, 441 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: but there's a limit to the number of people that 442 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: it would get to because there's only so many people 443 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: that are in your social circle. And eventually you can 444 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: throw that note away. But that's not what happens on 445 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: the internet and on the web, And I think that's 446 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: a really important thing to from a principal standpoint, to 447 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: tell your children. And I use the idea of going 448 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: in for a job interview, and one of the things 449 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: that I do is I and when when folks are 450 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: going to come an interview for positions on my team, 451 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: is I do a web search and I see, like 452 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: what's out there about them? And you know, there's sometimes 453 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: good and bad and they're sometimes ugly, and you have 454 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: to understand that that all exists out there. It's about 455 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 1: there out there, about all of us, and it's what 456 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: we put out is it remains. And so I like 457 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: my kids to understand that. And I've used, you know, 458 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: examples like that, so they get that part of it. 459 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: The other thing that I've done and this isn't gonna 460 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: last forever, and so I understand this too. But about 461 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: the bullying thing with my kids is I mostly for them. 462 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: They only one of them is using social media and 463 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: the others. Um my little one doesn't do any of this, 464 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: but my my older two they do a lot of texting. 465 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: And so when you take photos of friends that are 466 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: funny or whatever, I make sure that part of the 467 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: role of trust that we have about their use of 468 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: technology is they aren't allowed to share that photo with 469 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: anyone other than the friend that they took the picture of. Um. 470 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: It's one of the things that we've just established as 471 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: this is a core component of your use of this technology. 472 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: And it's mostly it protects my children as much as 473 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: it protects their friends. And it's part of that respect 474 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: and that trust of the technology and respect of the 475 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: social circles that you're in. And again, I recognize that 476 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: there's going to be a limit to that. We have 477 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: a policy in our home that the phones get checked 478 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: in at night in my room, and um, the kids 479 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: know that there could be you know, there are many 480 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: times when I'm going to take a look at what 481 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: they've done. I'm not going to talk to them about 482 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: it unless it's problematic. I'm going to stay out of 483 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: their social stuff, and as much as you know they 484 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: want me to, I'm not going to share it with 485 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: their the parents of their friends or anything like that. 486 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: But if I see something I don't like, I'm going 487 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: to have a conversation with them. It's only had to 488 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: happen once in the time that my kids have had 489 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: their their devices. But I think establishing those principles of 490 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: hurting others actually comes back to harm you. It's very simple, uh, 491 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: And and that's how you can approach all your technology 492 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: discussions so that you don't need to know everything about technology. 493 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: What you need to do is just establish the base 494 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: level pieces of those The web exists forever, and what 495 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: you put out their stays, and that you need to 496 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: be respectful and have trust and if you want to 497 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: be trusted and respected. You need to have that same 498 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: thing with respect to your friends. It's a great point 499 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: you make about how it's important to to not have 500 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: to worry about knowing everything about everything. I mean, it 501 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: is my job to research and communicate, and there's just 502 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: no way I could stay up to date on every 503 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: single thing. That's never going to happen. We live in 504 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: a world where more than a hundred hours of video 505 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: are uploaded to YouTube every single minute. That's one example 506 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: of how quickly, uh, this this world evolves. And and 507 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: that's that's similar to all the different apps and services 508 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: and products that are coming out all the time, all 509 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: of which are interacting using the internet in various ways. Uh. 510 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: We're at the dawn of the Internet of Things, which 511 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: is also poised to change our world in ways that 512 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: we can't completely anticipate right now. It would be crazy 513 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: to tell any any parent, Hey, you need to uh 514 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: you need to take courses in everything that's on the 515 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: internet right now so that you're aware that it's an 516 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: unrealistic expectation on any person. So I agree entirely the 517 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: approaching this from a principal standpoint, where you build that 518 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: foundation of values and behaviors is far more uh far 519 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: more rewarding, far more effective than trying to go the 520 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: technical route of Okay, well, this set of services, you 521 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: can use these because of the various controls that I 522 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: know are in place here, and these you can't use, 523 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: and these others I have to research. But for our 524 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: we can talk about them. That's that's gonna be a 525 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: a cascade effect for the rest of your life if 526 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: you try to go down that road. So don't do that. 527 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: Uh So what else can you tell me about Mozilla? 528 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: You know? And they're there. They're various projects two that 529 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: are in place or are under development to help people, parents, students, 530 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: people in general, even companies go forward in a responsible 531 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: way and tackle some of these problems. Because, like we've said, 532 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: you know, these are it's it's not just a simple 533 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: solution of saying to a person, hey, if you do 534 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: these five things, you're gonna be safe forever. It's actually, 535 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: uh an approach that has lots of different avenues to it, 536 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: where we have to address lots of issues with lots 537 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: of different players in the space. Right. That's awesome question, 538 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: and I think part of it from our standpoint is 539 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: so we have if you go to our website learning 540 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 1: dot Mozilla dot org, we have teaching kids there if 541 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: you go to the I think teaching activities section there, 542 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: So we have teaching kids for just general web literacy, 543 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: understanding how the web works, UM, getting a sense for 544 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: what what kinds of things you're going to encounter. There. 545 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: We also have things that we create in my policy group. 546 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: They're called smart ons UM, so that you can have 547 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: smart on privacy or smart on encryption, those kinds of things. 548 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: I find that the more that we get into I 549 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: actually just had, as a little bit of a side note, 550 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: I had a couple of months ago a bunch of 551 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: middle school kids here that I was introducing to web technology, 552 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: and I asked them about encryption, and I said, what 553 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: do you guys think about it? What do you know 554 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: about it? And they said that they thought it was 555 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: a bad thing because they see that in James Bond 556 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: movies all the time, and so it must be something 557 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: that's not good because the bad guys are using it. 558 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: So it was really interesting to be able to to 559 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: use these tools that we've created that are pretty they're 560 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: good learning tools, are kind of fun. We try to 561 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: make them so that UM you can actually, you know, 562 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: look at them and get that kind of thing done 563 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: in a really short period of time and get just 564 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: base level knowledge. I encourage everyone to do that because 565 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't take much time and it just gives you 566 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: some sense of the areas of strength that you could 567 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: build with respective technology. So from a user standpoint, from 568 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: a parent standpoint, from just someone who wants to generally 569 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: understand the Web, I think that's a great place to start. 570 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: We're not the only ones who do this. So obviously 571 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: web searches are going to pull up other interesting tools 572 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: out there that you can use to to learn more 573 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: about it, and I encourage that too from our standpoint. 574 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: The other thing that we try to do is help 575 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: to create rules of the road, if you will, for startups, 576 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: so that startups have some good kind of indications of 577 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: things that they can do to really start think about 578 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: thinking about early on in their um in the career 579 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: of their their company. And the data privacy principles are 580 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: things we have developed. We've developed this idea of like, 581 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: these are practices that you can implement to be able 582 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: to you know, really be transparent. We start kind of 583 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: at the core, collect only what you need in the beginning, 584 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: you can always expand that, keep it really transparent and 585 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: clear for your users about what you're doing, anonymize as 586 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: much data as you can quickly so that you're actually 587 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: not creating a liability for yourself and you're still assuming 588 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: that trust with your users. We like to think of 589 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: trust as being the most important currency on the web. 590 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: If we don't have trust with our users, we won't 591 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: have a user base. And trust is something that you 592 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: can gain pretty easily, but loose, I mean, it takes 593 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: a long time to gain, but you can lose it 594 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: in a second. UM As a company, So these are 595 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: ideas and and things we try to push out there 596 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: to the startup community UM. And then of course we 597 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: actually try to do these things, like I said, walk 598 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: the walk in our own products. UM. So we try 599 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: to demonstrate how you can create that transparency and choice 600 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: for users in our own products, whether that be in 601 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: Firefox or our other adjacent products that we have. So 602 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: I encourage everyone to start it just the basics and 603 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: to and to go from there, whether you're actually in 604 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: technology and a startup or whether you're just a user 605 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: of those tools. Well, thank you Dennell so much for 606 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: joining the show and talking to us about these subjects. 607 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: It's a it's a series of topics that I have 608 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: touched on several times in the past, and I think 609 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: that it's one of those conversations that you can't just 610 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: have the one time and then let it go. You 611 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: do have to bring this up occasionally, because, as we've said, 612 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: the Internet is constantly evolving. Our role within it changes, 613 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: the way our behaviors affected changes. We have to be 614 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: aware of this sort of stuff. And I really appreciate 615 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: organizations like Mozilla that are trying very hard to to 616 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,719 Speaker 1: decrease the burden of responsibility on the individual user, because 617 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: as a tool gets really easy to use, it gets 618 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: harder and harder to convince someone, hey, you need to 619 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: put in a little extra work to make sure that 620 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: you're using this in a way that's not going to 621 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: impact you in a negative way down the line. Um, 622 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: when that convenience gets to a certain level, it's it's 623 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: it's a difficult sell to tell someone, hey, just you 624 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: need to change these few settings, or you need to 625 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: think about this before you start browsing, or whatever it 626 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: may be. That it's it's tough. Um, you know, it's 627 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: it's very easy to kind of shut your mind off 628 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: and not worry about the consequences that can happen and 629 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: instead just concentrate on the reward you get using these 630 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: various tools. Uh, and so seeing the work that's being 631 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: done in order to try and address that in a 632 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: way that places less of a responsibility on the individual user, 633 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: not not saying that they're not accountable, but rather saying, 634 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: let's find a way to improve the experience for everybody. Uh. 635 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: It's something I greatly appreciate because frankly, it means that 636 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:55,959 Speaker 1: further down the road, I won't have to do as 637 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: many podcasts where I chastise people for bad web behavior. Well, 638 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: I'm really appreciative of the fact that you actually do 639 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: talk about this over and over. That's a really important thing. 640 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: It's a lot like driving. I'm actually my oldest son 641 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 1: is learning how to drive, and so I think as 642 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: drivers we sort of forget that there are rules that 643 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: we learned at one point that we need to relearn 644 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 1: and re educate ourselves on as we're teaching our children 645 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: this stuff. So it's a lot like driving, and the 646 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: fact that you know there there are hazards around us 647 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: all the time, and we need to pay attention to them. 648 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: So it's a nice reminder and I think it's great, 649 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: and we're going to continue doing what we're doing, and 650 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: I hope you continue doing what you're doing, and it's 651 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: just going to make the web a better place for 652 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: all of us. I want to thank Danelle again. I 653 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: know I just thank her in the interview, but I 654 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: wish to thank her again for taking time to come 655 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: on the show and have a conversation about these topics. 656 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: You have heard me say on previous episodes of Tech 657 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: Stuff that these ideas are very important and that we 658 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: should make sure that we do have these conversations and 659 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: remind ourselves of you know, what's actually out there and 660 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 1: what are we comfortable with? What level of revealing of 661 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: of our privacy are we comfortable doing when we go 662 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: out there and interact on the web. Some of us 663 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 1: have very different thresholds than others. And while I might 664 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: be fairly cavalier because I have come to that conclusion, 665 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: at least I'm doing so from an educated standpoint, and 666 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: I think that's important for all of us. Thank you, 667 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: guys for listening to the show. I hope you enjoyed it. 668 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: If you have any suggestions for future topics, or anyone 669 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: you think I should interview on the show, or perhaps 670 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: a guest host you would like for me to have 671 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: on the show or have come back to the show. 672 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: Let me know. Send me a message. My email is 673 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: text stuff at how stuff works dot com, or drop 674 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: me a line on Facebook for Twitter, the handle at 675 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: both of those is text stuff hs W and I'll 676 00:35:52,160 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 1: talk to you again really soon from are on this 677 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works 678 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: dot com. M