1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you From how supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're going to talk about 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: something that pulls in aspects from our episode on modesty, 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: things that we've talked about before with women's fashion and 6 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: also women working in more male dominated environments, and that 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: is taking a look at what it's like for women 8 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: in law and particularly this aspect of dressing as a 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: lady lawyer. Yeah, it really seems like women out there 10 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: practicing law face a lot of flak that their male 11 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: counterparts don't have to. And we got a letter from 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,959 Speaker 1: a woman named Bonnie who was actually responding to another 13 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: listener letter we had read on an episode that addressed 14 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: the whole issue of female attorney fashion struggles. And Bonnie 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: said that, you know, I would love it if you 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: did a podcast on this topic. And she said, I'm 17 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: sure we share a lot of struggles with other professionals 18 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: and women working in a typically male environment. Not only 19 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: are there the typical struggles like work life balance and 20 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: making partner, but there are also things I encountered that 21 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: I never imagine would happen. For one, I've been asked 22 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: if I was a client, a secretary, or a court 23 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: reporter on multiple occasions. It's rarely assumed by default that 24 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: you're the lawyer unless you're standing behind the council table 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: by yourself. One time, a witness actually pointed at me 26 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: during a deposition and asked, who's the girl? She says, 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,199 Speaker 1: Believe it or not, I've even been touched in mildly 28 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: inappropriate ways by male attorneys and even a judge. This 29 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: wasn't at some cocktail party either. This was during court 30 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: conferences where you'd think nothing like that would ever occur. 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: I knew I would encounter misogyny in my career, that 32 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: both these instances were totally unexpected. So Bonnie and to 33 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: all of our other listeners out there working in and 34 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: around the legal profession, this episode is for you, and 35 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: I hope the rest of you guys can also learn 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: a thing or two about just the weird kind of 37 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: double standards that go on in a courtroom. Yeah, because 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: I have a feeling that this is a lot of 39 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: this will be reflective of a lot of women's experiences, 40 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: just in terms of that question of how to dress 41 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: in a professional manner. So when it comes to court 42 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: room fashions, it's always come with specific decorum and rules 43 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: for how you should dress. So if we look, for instance, 44 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: over to England, the traditional attire for judges is just 45 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: one maybe more extreme example. Yeah, it's there's some fabulous, 46 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: fabulous fashion rules for seventeenth century judges in England. They 47 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: had to wear long robes complete with ermine and taffada 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: our silk, a full hood with a cow covering their shoulders, 49 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: and a cloak, and ladies and gentlemen there were colors. 50 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: Their robes were green and summer and violet and winter. 51 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: But all of this fabulous fashion just meant that they 52 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: startorially fit in with everybody else who was attending the 53 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: royal court at the time. For instance, those white powdered 54 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: wigs that we associate with this period and with English 55 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: lawyers was just what was considered polite to wear out 56 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: in society. So it was incorporated into court dress as well, 57 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: And in sixteen thirty five we see possibly the first 58 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: court dress code, which was the definitive guide for judges 59 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: on what to wear in the courtroom. It basically told 60 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: them what robes to wear, when and how. Now, once 61 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: we get into the mid eighteenth century, rules have changed 62 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: just a little bit, so during criminal trials a less 63 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: formal version of the robes was used. This would be 64 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: a scarlet robe, black scarf and scarlet casting hood, also 65 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: known as a tippet or stole. And then in civil 66 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: trials some judges had had begun to wear an all 67 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: black silk gown and in great tafoda in the mid 68 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: eighteenth century was becoming increasingly popular as an alternative to 69 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: the pink tafoa used on some robes. So I love this. 70 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: I love that there are such like strongly delineated rules 71 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: for what these male judges were wearing and how and 72 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: when to wear pink and violet purple. Yeah, exactly. And 73 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: there are so many more fashion dues and down'ts for 74 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: these male judges that we could get into, but you know, 75 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: we have a share to run, so if we move 76 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: over to America. This is coming from an essay written 77 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: by former Supreme Court Justice Standard O'Connor, who's providing us 78 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: historical insights about this side of the pond, and she 79 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: talks about how those colorful rogue traditions and ornate wigs 80 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: they never really took off here and The theory is 81 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: that Thomas Jefferson himself opposed the unnecessary pomp and quote 82 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: needless official apparel, especially the monstrous wig which makes the 83 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: English judges look like rats peeping through bushes of oakum. 84 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: And I had no idea what oakum meant. Apparently it's 85 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: a loose fiber from untangled rope that was especially used 86 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: for cocking wooden ships. So there you go, and something 87 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: that apparently you just don't want to look like. It's 88 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: a sick burn from Jefferson. Yeah, he was always dropping 89 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: those those sick oakum burns um. But she talks about 90 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: O'Connor does about the portrait of the first Chief Justice, 91 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: John j that shows him wearing a black and red 92 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: robe with white boarders. But by eighteen o one, when 93 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: John Marshall became Chief Justice, it was all black for 94 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: the justices. But that's all tradition. There are no written 95 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: rules about what judges must wear, which I thought was 96 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: really interesting, although there have been a couple exceptions. For instance, 97 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: O'Connor talks about how she began wearing a white collar, 98 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: which sort of stepped out of via all black unspoken rules. 99 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: But more significantly, former Chief Justice rhyan Quist had gold 100 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: bands sewn onto his robe after he saw it in 101 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: an opera that I believe like involved a judge figure, 102 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: and he liked it so much he had it sewn 103 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: on to his I mean, and you know, if you're 104 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: going to be chief justice, why not add a little flair. 105 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: I imagine that's striking. My father is a former pilot, 106 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: and so he had the gold bands on his black 107 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: uniform as well well. And we've talked to about how 108 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,119 Speaker 1: Ruth Bader Ginsburg has her special jabbows that she wears 109 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,679 Speaker 1: for different occasion. But men don't wear those fancy collars, 110 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: and we are definitely here to talk about those gender divisions. 111 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: That's right, Caroline. Things aren't so black and white though, 112 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: when it comes to people appearing before judges, especially women. 113 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: And this is coming from a gallery over at the 114 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: Cut with New York Magazine from and they wrote, historically, 115 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: the courtroom wardrobes of high profile people have carried meaning 116 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: as well. Right, So if we go back in time, 117 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: and I meant this might seem like a very strange 118 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: jump all of a sudden, but if we go back 119 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: to Joan of arc, so she had a ton of 120 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: trials because you know, she was accused of being a 121 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: heretic for hearing voices, so at the end of one 122 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: of her many trials, she promised, Hey, I am gonna 123 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: stop hearing the voices you guys, and just to throw 124 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: in there something extra, I'm also gonna stop wearing male clothing. 125 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: Of course, she started wearing it again while she was 126 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: in prison, possibly to avoid sexual assault, and she claimed 127 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: that it was more lawful and convenient. Shortly thereafter, Joan 128 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: was judged to be a relapsed heretic and was executed. 129 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: And so as you can tell, we're definitely getting into 130 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: what your clothes say about you when you appear in 131 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: the courtroom. Well, clearly Marie Antoinette thought a lot about that, 132 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: because during her imprisonment she wore a black morning gown 133 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: for six months straight and defiance of a ban on black, 134 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: which at that time symbolized sympathy for the monarchy. And 135 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: when she was later tried on an array of charges, 136 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: including a vindictive glance yikes France, wow that rhymed, she 137 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: came to the courtroom in a tattered dress, which caused 138 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: one guard to note quote her long black dress rendered 139 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: her extraordinary pallor all the more striking and clearly she 140 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: was trying to in gender sympathy. Um, but of course 141 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: that didn't really work because she was executed. But for 142 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: her execution, she wore a pristine white dress. Yeah, and 143 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: she accessed or ezes to match. This lady knew what 144 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: she was doing. I mean, it didn't work, it kind 145 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 1: of backfired, but she looked fabulous. And then if we 146 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: jump forward to uh, modern times, we have to point 147 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: out Martha Stewart, who was roundly criticized for wearing clothes 148 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: that drew attention to her wealth, things like fancy first dolls, 149 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: broken bags. People were basically saying, like, what are you 150 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: doing flaunting how much money you have? Rich lady? Martha's 151 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: being Martha and Martha will always do Martha. Martha's you 152 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: and Martha. But that brings us to today. What about 153 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: we talked about women in front of the court bench. 154 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: What about the lawyers, the people responsible for pleading their 155 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: clients cases. Obviously, male or female lawyers are expected to 156 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: dress professionally in court because you want to be taken 157 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: seriously and yet not distracting or give the jury the 158 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: wrong impression because you're representing your clients. Yeah, but the 159 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: whole thing is that nobody needs to be a jerk 160 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: about it. And preparing for this episode, I was so 161 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: taken aback at how shamey people could be, specifically women, 162 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: let alone men when it comes to advising women attorneys 163 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: how to dress, and how contradictory so much of that 164 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: advice is. Yeah, it's never really been easy for women 165 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: lawyers to dress themselves for court because for men, they 166 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: have a uniform, it's a suit and a tie, whereas 167 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: women have more options perhaps, but they're kind of penalized 168 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: no matter what, because and I've found this surprising, you 169 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: wear a pant suit and you're considered too masculine, but 170 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: sometimes if you wear the wrong skirt and heels, you're 171 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: considered too feminine. And when this conversation really started getting 172 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: off the ground in the nineteen seventies and eighties, women 173 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: try to play it safe by adopting male style. So 174 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: we would wear skirt suits with ham's below the kneecap 175 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: and button down shirts and even these floppy bow ties 176 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: because we needed ties to apparently, but we would often 177 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: accessorize with pearls or ruffles to have as Uh and 178 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: Farmer writing for the American Bar Association's Perspectives magazine to 179 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: have feminine apologetic disclaimers, which actually is a term coined 180 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: by sociologist Jan Felsion. So we would be kind of 181 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: emulating men in the basic styles, but also offering those 182 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: touches to say, oh, still a woman here and don't worry, right, 183 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's totally a fine line that women were 184 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: walking and they were emulating men, because who else were 185 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: they going to emulate? You know? There. It wasn't like 186 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: in the eighties and even now there were a ton 187 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: of women in higher up legal positions. Uh, it definitely 188 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: is and was a male dominated fashion. And so Farmer 189 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: points out that in the eighties women finally did find 190 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: an ounce of inspiration in the form of l a 191 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: law character Grace van Owen, who wore silk V neck blouses, 192 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: and she talked to a Farmer, talked to a judge 193 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: who is discussing how women in the eighties just like 194 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: ran out and everybody had this silk V neck blouse 195 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: because like, well they did it with her on TV 196 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: and it looks nice. You didn't have to have rock 197 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 1: the floppy floppy bow tie anymore. So, working girl, although 198 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I like a floppy bow tie every now 199 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: and then. I'll admit it, um. But even today, things 200 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: have not gotten any easier since the eighties for women 201 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: in law school and practicing law. For instance, in two 202 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: thousand nine, at a Seventh Circuit Bar Association meeting, a 203 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: panel of judges and lawyers complained about women's attire. We 204 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: have Chief Judge Michael P. Mccuski of the U. S. 205 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: District Court for the Central District of Illinois. How does 206 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: he fit all that? On a business card? He said 207 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: that he'd observed female participants at moot court competitions in 208 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: law school wearing quote, skirts so short there's no way 209 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: they can sit down, and blouses so short there's no 210 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: way the judges wouldn't look. Because you know, we've mentioned that. Yeah, 211 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: there're if you were female lawyers practicing a lot of times, 212 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: but by far, if you're standing before a judge, you 213 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: have a really good chance and even better chance that 214 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: he is a man. Right. And I think that quote 215 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: sums up attitudes about women and their attire so well, 216 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: because so the first part, the skirts so short, there's 217 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: no way that they can sit down. That's like a blaming, 218 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: blaming the woman who's wearing the attire and then bloustes 219 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: so short, there's no way the judges wouldn't look. That's 220 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 1: admitting that there's a bunch of pervy old men sitting 221 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: in the courtroom. But in response to this, judge A. 222 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: Benjamin Goldger of the U. S. Bankruptcy Court for the 223 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: Northern District of Illinois said that women lawyers dressing too 224 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: sexually is quote a huge problem. You don't dress in 225 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: court as if it's Saturday night and you're going out 226 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: to a party. Yeah, I mean the true you want 227 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: to dress professionally, but let's not single out women. Okay, 228 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: And he didn't he he was actually equally unhappy with 229 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: men wearing loud graphic ties. But this is not where 230 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: this kind of fashion scrutiny stops, because I mean, I 231 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: don't know if you guys knew it, but judges are 232 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: apparently closet fashion. He says similarly in two thousand ten, 233 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: although this wasn't so judge heavy. Nonetheless, the Chicago Bar 234 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: Association's Young Lawyers section held a What Not to Wear 235 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: fashion show that brought judges, law professors, and law students 236 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: altogether to critique mostly female courtroom fashions on a runway UM, 237 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: which very fact that that happened attracted a lot of 238 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: media attention. I feel like almost every article that we 239 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: read on this topic, Caroline highlighted this, this Chicago Barrow 240 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: Association meeting. Well, yeah, because I think there wasn't like, 241 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: you know, media coverage so to speak, of this event. 242 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: But there were there were two bloggers in particular who 243 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: were present, and one was like, yeah, you tell them, 244 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: and the other one was like seriously, So she she 245 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: laid out the roles as she had interpreted them, which 246 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: was basically like there's nothing that you can wear and 247 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: get away with, like you're darned if you do, darned 248 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: if you don't. Well, and it probably also ties in 249 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: two things that we've talked about, particularly in the modesty 250 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: episode on not only is there that fine line, but 251 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: it probably gets even finer depending on your body type. 252 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: All sorts of factors going into that um. In June, though, 253 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: it's worth noting that in Tennessee Circuit Judge Royce Taylor 254 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: got so fed up with complaints from other attorneys about 255 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: courtroom dress, particularly among women, that he said a dress 256 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: code in his courtroom for female attorneys, and we will 257 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: say that he also found a male attorney in contempt 258 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: for not wearing a blazer. But his reason for this 259 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: was that your personal appearance in court is a reflection 260 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: upon the entire legal profession. Okay, totally valid um. And 261 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: Nashville attorney Carla Miller's response to this was definitely on 262 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: Taylor's side. She said that some ladies are dressing in 263 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: a manner that should be bothersome to other lady lawyers 264 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: who strive to be professional. And she breaks it down, y'all, 265 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: Carla gets Carla gets serious. She says, here's the thing. 266 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: We girls, we like making fashion statements. It's about individualism. 267 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: Maybe the courtroom is not a place to show your 268 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: individualism via fashion. Now I'm just assuming that Miller is 269 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: also from Tennessee, and so I affected the Tennessee accent perfect, 270 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: and you know, all of these things they have points 271 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: to them as far as dressing professionally. But and I'm 272 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: going to keep saying that, but I'm also going to 273 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: keep saying that it's it's just kind of icky though 274 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to the focus on women. But all 275 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: of this extends this, these expectations, these rules, they all 276 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: extend back to before you're even in the courtroom, when 277 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: you're just a law student. In March, Loyola Law School 278 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: sent a memo to students about appropriate behavior for their 279 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: externships that included a special note for women, which said, 280 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: I really don't need to mention that cleavage and stiletto 281 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: heels are not appropriate office where outside of ridiculous lawyer 282 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: TV shows do I Yet I'm getting complaints from supervisors 283 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: and it's important to note, uh that there were no 284 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: ash and guidelines in this memo for men, and I 285 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: think you know the content of that message is bad enough. 286 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: Do you really need to be snarky? I feel like 287 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: there was that was snark laden. Well, all of these 288 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: are just various examples of how there really isn't an 289 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: established way for women to dress because it's going to 290 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: vary from judge to judge. Because going into this episode, 291 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: I assumed that, Okay, the proper and safest way for 292 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: a female lawyer to dress in front of a judge 293 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: is to just wear a pant suit. Yeah. I would 294 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: have assumed that as well, you wear a modest button 295 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: down blazer pant suit. Done, But no, because they're also 296 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: judges who do not like pant suits on women because 297 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: they find them too masculinizing. And in fact, this kind 298 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: of blew my mind. A lot of law clerks will 299 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: get word out to female attorneys before a case start, 300 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: before a trial starts, to let them know how judges 301 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: prefer that they dressed, not in the gross sense of 302 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: the term, but in terms of courtroom decorum. But I 303 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: had no idea that courtroom decorum would be that specific 304 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: to how women dress. I mean, this does also apply 305 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: to some men. I mean, we've mentioned the guy who 306 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: held a male attorney in contemptive court for not wearing 307 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: a blazer for instance. However it's still I mean for men, yeah, 308 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: wear a pant suit and you'll be safe, but not 309 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: so much for women. Right, It's very strange that there's 310 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: no advice to men out there to hey, kind of 311 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: kind of feel out the courtroom environment and see what 312 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: is safe for you to wear. But that's the bulk 313 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: of advice to women attorneys. And Anna Akbari is a 314 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: New York University professor who tells herself as a sociologist, entrepreneur, 315 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: and the thinking person stylist, had a lot to say 316 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: for women attorneys about how to dress. She says, if 317 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: you're going to wear a suit, a skirt suit registers 318 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: better than a pant suit. In male dominated fields like law, 319 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: skirts and dresses are particularly rewarded as they are more 320 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: appealing to men. In interview situations, in particular, women should 321 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: always wear a skirt or dress as it is heavily 322 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: favored over pants by interviewers, many of whom are men. 323 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: And at this point, I flipped my laptop over destroyed 324 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: that it caught on fire, and I've since bought a 325 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: new one. Uh, that was my response to Akbari. Well, 326 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: and if you do toss on a skirt or a 327 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: dress and heels, there are even further rules for that 328 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: of well, what's the proper length, what about the bus line? 329 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: How much arm can I show? How much color can 330 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: I wear? There are even rules about how Um, women 331 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: lawyers want to should avoid wearing high heels with red 332 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: souls because that will draw too much attention, or avoid 333 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: wearing too bright of colors, never wear pink. All these 334 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: things be feminine, but not too feminine. Um. But going 335 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: to Akbari's previsent point of how a little more feminine 336 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: sexy attire is appreciated. Judge Richard Copp caught a lot 337 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: of flak in March on his blog when I Forget, 338 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: I don't remember what this was in response to, but 339 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: he wrote a post about how there was he think 340 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: God left her anonymous a quote very pretty female lawyer 341 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: um in her late twenties, who's brilliant, but also tends 342 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: to where as he calls it very short skirts and 343 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: shows lots of her ample chest, and how he especially 344 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: appreciates the last two attributes and those are direct quotes, 345 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: and he goes on to talk about how female law 346 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: clerks sneered at this woman behind her back and called 347 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: her unprofessional and did directly like get slut shamy with 348 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: her for this. And so his conclude susion for women 349 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: lawyers in considering how to dress is well, you can't win. 350 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: Quote men are both pigs and prudes. Get over it. 351 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: So that um, women listening, if you're in law school, 352 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: what a challenge? What a challenge? Yeah, And a lot 353 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: of the flak that he received was not only for 354 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: just being gross, because he admits in that blog post 355 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 1: that he's a dirty old man, which is he's probably 356 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: he he would say if he were sitting in this 357 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: studio right now, he would say that was clearly a joke. No. Well, 358 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: in his response he did post response, he apologized for it, 359 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: and he basically said that he tried and failed to 360 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: use edgy humor. And as someone who enjoys reading and writing, 361 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: I say that humor is very tricky. You're right, just 362 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: try not to use it. If you're not very good 363 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: at it. Maybe stay to your day job judge. Oh yeah, hey, 364 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: well I know, yeah, stick to being a judge. And 365 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people responded to his really gross blog 366 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: by saying, um, this is embarrassing for you and for 367 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: me for the fact that you're a judge. So the 368 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: question though, is why why are there Why why does 369 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: this tight rope even exist? Um? So they are all 370 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: sorts of theories as to why this happens. Of course, 371 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: we could circle around to evolutionary biology. Um. There was 372 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: a study published in the journal Aggressive Behavior in two 373 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: thousand eleven called the Intolerance of Sexy Peers, and it 374 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: really focuses on women being judgmental toward how other women dress, 375 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: such as the case of those women law clerks throwing 376 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: shade at the lady lawyer. Um. The study would say 377 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: that this was really these women, these law clerks, acting 378 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: in a sexually protective manner, or I should say a 379 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: sexually self protective manner, because the idea, according to this study, 380 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: is that women get judge against other women who we 381 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: think are dressing too provocatively because we consider them a 382 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: sexual threat. Although I really doubt that that's happening in 383 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: a courtroom. Yeah, well, you know, people probably tend not 384 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: to bring their boyfriends or husbands to the courtroom, and 385 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: so they probably don't have to be worried about anyone 386 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: getting stolen because a lady lawyer is wearing a blouse. 387 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: If you have two single ladies listening, if you're looking 388 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: to meet a man, sign up for Jerry Duty I 389 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: s I p um so. Another theory, another conversation that's 390 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: happening about why there are so many perceived or anecdotal 391 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: problems with what women attorneys are wearing has to do 392 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: with this need to control women. And this is coming 393 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: from Valerie LaRue. She was writing in Miss j D 394 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: in June, and she says that it's not just men. 395 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: Women will do the policing of other women for men. 396 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: And she says that basically, you know, our culture still 397 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: judges women, even the most powerful women like Hillary Clinton, 398 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: by a completely different standard, one inferior to men. And 399 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: she goes on to give other nonclothing examples, but it's 400 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: basically that idea of you know, where are all the 401 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: rules for men, like, yes, wear a suit, wear a 402 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: nice tie, don't be too flashy, all that stuff. But 403 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: why why there's so many there's so many websites out 404 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: there and blogs and whatever dedicated to telling women what 405 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,959 Speaker 1: to wear and how they're failing and looking skanky or whatever. 406 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: Don't let your tramp stamp show was part of that 407 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: Chicago fashion show. Um, And it's part of this whole 408 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: thing of like, oh, well, we're nervous maybe subconsciously about 409 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: women being in such a male dominated field. Well, and 410 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: Jill Philipovic, who is a litigator turned journalist who focuses 411 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: a lot on sexism and feminism, has said that it 412 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: quote gives sexist men and women because remember, this is 413 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: not just something perpetuated by men, Women are also doing 414 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: this to women. It gives sexist men and women the 415 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: ability to discriminate both in hiring and giving projects to 416 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: brand female attorneys based on appropriateness, which too often correlates 417 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: to perceived social class, of which race also factors in, 418 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,239 Speaker 1: and to body type. I mean, all of this just 419 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: traces back to policing women's bodies, and also this whole 420 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: thing of law in particular being very much a male domain. 421 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: I mean, at the top of the podcast, when we 422 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: were talking about judges fashions, it was exclusive to men 423 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: because they were the only judges there. And only now 424 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: are we even starting to see more of uh something 425 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: akin to gender parity in the courtroom. Yeah, and we're 426 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: going to talk more about this gender divide with fashion. 427 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: We come right back from a quick break. So when 428 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: we left off, I had mentioned that at the top 429 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: of the podcast we were talking about those British judges 430 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: that it was all men. Um. There was a source 431 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: that we found talking about how today in Britain, their 432 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: court room decorum of wearing the robes and wigs might 433 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: seem sillier old fashioned, but it's a lot easier to 434 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: follow than these rules stateside, because quote, at least you 435 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,239 Speaker 1: can wear basically anything you want under the rope and 436 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: still look just like your male colleagues. No one would 437 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: mistake you, as in the case of the stuff. I've 438 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: never told you listener we heard from no one would 439 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: mistake you for a core reporter or paralegal. Yeah, so 440 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: those rules, those dress codes that involve wearing robes could 441 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: actually be pretty pretty beneficial. It's specially in a male 442 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: dominated courtroom or if just hanging out in your house 443 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: robes for all. Anyone who keeps up with celebrity news 444 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: lately would probably know what we're talking about. If you're 445 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: not already, you know, living in England would be really 446 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: familiar with this whole wig thing because the woman that 447 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: George Clooney just married, who is a lawyer in England, 448 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: had barristaff she is. She had her picture circulating in 449 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: the media with her tiny little white wig on. Ah. Yeah, 450 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: so it's it's a thing and women do it too, 451 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: and it you know, it's it's got to make things easier. 452 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: It has to one with things. I mean, yeah, well, 453 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: never mind how to solve sexism in the courtroom. Wigs 454 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: and robes done end of podcasts perfect well, So part 455 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: of this whole issue. You know, we've talked about the 456 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: male dominated stuff a bunch and the fact that women 457 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: lack role models, and Amanda has talked about this over 458 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: it's slate talking about how many law firms still lack 459 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: female partners who can kind of show the rookies how 460 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: it's done. She says that only four of the top 461 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: two hundred law firms in the US have female managing partners, 462 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: and so following the advice on the website Corporate run 463 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: by attorney Cat Griffin can really prove to be a bummer, 464 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: because Griffin's advice is to play it safe, ladies, until 465 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: you see a senior lawyer do it. But the whole 466 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: problem is that statistically, there just aren't a whole lot 467 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: of women partners and judges out there to look to 468 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: for your fashion guidelines. However, there are plenty of women 469 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: in law school. Um, I mean, if we just look 470 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: at law firms, it's kind of astounding to compare those 471 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: statistics to statistics of the numbers of women in law school, 472 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: because it's fairly equal. There are just slightly fewer women 473 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: pursuing their j d s in the US as there 474 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: are men. Um And these stats are coming from a 475 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: Catalyst report from and it talked about how law firms 476 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: in particular might not have as many women among their 477 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: ranks because they're very much set up around a male 478 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: model because they don't have family friendly environments. I mean, 479 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: law is notorious for its long hours, particularly if you're 480 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: in a private practice where billable hours rule the day, 481 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: and so you make your money and get the attention 482 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: by putting in those long days. It's a lot of 483 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: tedious work. If a client calls, you have to, you know, 484 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: be able to pick up and respond. And it talks 485 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: about how motherhood stirs up a benevolent paternalism as well, 486 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: and so it creates a drain because even though there 487 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: are lots of women in law school, they start to 488 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: siphon off the higher up you climb, right, and so 489 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: Deborah Epstein Henry who's who's an author and former lawyer, 490 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: talks about what we need to kind of help with this, 491 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: both in the what do I wear arena as well 492 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: as in the how do I Progress in my career arena. 493 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: She says that until you have representation of women on 494 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: influential committees and boards a critical mass. She says, women 495 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: are not comfortable voicing their opinions. And this also applies 496 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: to taking chances and all sorts of things, all the 497 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: way down to what they wear in court. And so 498 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: let's take a deeper dive into some of the numbers. 499 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: So as opposed to the just over forty seven percent 500 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: of women who make up j D students just in 501 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: the United States, according to the American Bar Association, women 502 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: as of make up only thirty three percent of the 503 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: legal profession. And if you look just at lawyers, you 504 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: also see the pipeline start to thin. So when it 505 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: comes to summer associates probably rush out of law school, 506 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: forty seven point seven percent of them are women, and 507 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: then forty percent or associate our associates excuse me, and 508 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: then are full blown lawyers. But of course when we 509 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: move from being a lawyer to being a partner, even 510 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: fewer women in there. That's right. In two eleven, women 511 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: made up just nineteen point five percent of partners, and 512 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: eleven percent of the largest US law firms had no 513 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: women on their governing committees. Women did appear, however, to 514 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: be more successful in single tier firms, where promotion rates 515 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: for them as equity partners was strongest. And basically, an 516 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: equity partner is a part owner of the business. But 517 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: one little fact about women equity partners and law firms, 518 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: They do, on average make about eighty six percent of 519 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: what their male equity partners make, So the wage gap 520 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: still exists even at that top tier. Moving out of 521 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: law firms though, and looking at general councils at Fortune 522 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: five hundred companies, women comprise about eighteen point eight percent 523 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: of those lawyers. And I just mentioned a wage gap. Yes, 524 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: in fact, it exists for lawyers as well. Women lawyers 525 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: are making about twenty percent less than male lawyers as 526 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: of two thousand twelve, and so in terms of numbers 527 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: for lawyers, it's even worse for women of color. Women 528 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,719 Speaker 1: of color makeup just eleven percent of associates, two percent 529 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: of partners, and there are only fifteen general councils who 530 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: are women of color in Fortune five companies. And if 531 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: we bring it full circle and get back to talking 532 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: about judges and look at the courts. In twenty three 533 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: of all federal judge ships were held by women, and 534 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: just of state judgeships were held by women. So I 535 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: do wonder, then, what whether this conversation would be happening 536 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: at least as much if there were more women behind 537 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: the bench, Because regardless of what the gender makeup is 538 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: in a courtroom, there will still and always be rules 539 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: of decorum, as I think there should be. But it 540 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 1: seems like something needs to happen in terms of making 541 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: these fashion rules not so much a part of the 542 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: daily grind of being a woman lawyer, because shouldn't they 543 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: be focusing more of their attention and concerns on, oh, 544 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, the actual law in cases. It seems 545 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: like a lot of energy is possibly being diverted into 546 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: these other kinds of things. Yeah, as my therapist would say, interesting, 547 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: you're you're showing a lot of energy around this topic. 548 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: I wonder why that is, And I do think that 549 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: a lot of it has to do with there is 550 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: still even after all of this time, there is still 551 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: so much like shaming going on, like making almost trying 552 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: to make women feel unwelcome in the courtroom and so 553 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: putting the focus on their appearance rather than their actual deeds. Well, 554 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: I think too that this is we could have this 555 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: same conversation just about again about women dressing professionally period, 556 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: because it started off in the eighties, Yeah, where women 557 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: were essentially like, okay, well we could just wear this 558 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 1: slightly more feminine version of the men's uniform. But then 559 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: we're like, no, we want to wear what we want 560 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: to wear, let's wear skirts, let's accessorize, let's wear our 561 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: flouncy bows or not. So I think that this is 562 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: probably an issue that a lot of women confront and 563 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: probably a big thing for women in college too, of 564 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 1: figuring out how to transition their fashion into the professional world, 565 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: whether they are heading toward a law firm or not. 566 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: So I'm really curious to hear from our listeners on 567 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: this one. Are there any law students or women lawyers 568 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: listening to where this really rings a bell and is 569 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: this actually problem because that is one thing A lot 570 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: of these you know, the memos and these uh these 571 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: fashion shows really seem to frame this as something that 572 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: far too many female lawyers are violating. That we're just 573 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: dressing like we're going to the club. What is this 574 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 1: club also that everyone is apparently always going to. Yeah, 575 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: I mean, is it so much an issue of a 576 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 1: large number of women dressing inappropriately or is it just 577 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, as we talked about some quote unquote self 578 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: described dirty old men, judges jumping to conclusions and judge 579 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,879 Speaker 1: women judging jumping to the conclusions. So many so much 580 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: judging much judging. Well, because think about it too, I mean, 581 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: the role that women play, possibly not only just flutge 582 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: shaming behind some lawyers backs, but also doing if they're 583 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: a law clerk for a judge, doing the message delivery 584 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: to female lawyers to let them know. I mean, on 585 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: the one hand, you could say they're doing them a solid, 586 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: but on the other hand, they're perpetuating all the stuff 587 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about too. Yeah, so lawyers, we need a 588 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: lawyer up. We'd like to hear from you and other 589 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: women who have encountered this too in their professional goings on. 590 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: Let us know your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuff 591 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: works dot com is where you can reach us. You 592 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,760 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or message 593 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: us on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 594 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Well, I have a 595 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: letter here from Clara in response to our Mama's Boys 596 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: and Daddy's Girls series. Uh. She says, my boyfriend of 597 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: five years is one of three sons who I believe 598 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: make an interesting case study on the developmental effects of 599 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: having a closer relationship with a mother versus a father 600 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: during formative years. My boyfriend is twenty six, with an 601 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: older and younger brother, all about two years apart, as 602 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: the boys were entering out lessons there. Then, married parents 603 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: decided to move across country to Montana for a career 604 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: move for their dad. Soon after the move, my boyfriend's 605 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: parents made the decision to divorce, but the result being 606 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: that my boyfriend's older brother would stay temporarily with their 607 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: dad in Montana, while my boyfriend and his younger brother 608 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: moved back to the mid West with their mom. This 609 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: temporary fix turned into a year long situation, and the 610 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: after effects of this dynamic resonate to this day. Well, 611 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: I love all my boyfriend's family. His older brother is 612 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: admittedly anxious, socially awkward, and has had continual struggles developing 613 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 1: and maintaining strong relationships with women. Alternatively, my boyfriend and 614 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: his younger brother have much more emotionally sensitive demeanors and 615 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: are much more socially fluent than their oldest sibling. I've 616 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: always just taken this dynamic at face value, but listening 617 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: to your podcast really got me thinking about why there 618 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: is such a stark contrast in the personalities of three 619 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: otherwise incredibly similar brothers. Granted, all behavior is circumstantial, but 620 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 1: I think that building a stronger relationship with their mom 621 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: versus their dad, and the formative of years of early 622 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: adolescence had a profoundly positive impact on my boyfriend and 623 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 1: his little brother. I love the podcast. You ladies keep 624 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: on being fabulous, and you keep on being fabulous. To Clara, 625 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: thanks for writing in. Well. I've got a letter here 626 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: from Kate and it's in response to an episode it 627 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: quite a while back on girls fascinations with horses, and 628 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: I loved it so much I had to read it. 629 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: So Kate works on a ranch managing a tiny little herd. 630 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: She says, I trim hooves, train a baby and a 631 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 1: four year old, and generally keep this nine horse herd 632 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: and all around good health. And she talks about the 633 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: two kinds of women in the horse world. The one 634 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: kind of woman uses horses essentially as a status symbol. 635 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: And then she says, there are horse girls like myself 636 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: and others I know. We trim our own horses hooves. Doctor, 637 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: they're gaping gashes, clean the parts of them. We'd rather 638 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: not them until our bus or store or they get 639 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: the point of the lesson, whichever comes first. Throw thousands 640 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: of pounds of hay in tiny, little and closed barns 641 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: choking on random haybits that get lodged in our throats 642 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: when the wind kicks up. But most of all, when 643 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: we fall, we get back on instead of handing our 644 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: horse off for someone else to fix. Girls like myself 645 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: have cut our hands with hoof knives, but finish the 646 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: job because your horse can't very well walk around on 647 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: three trimmed hoofs because of a little blood. Girls like 648 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,720 Speaker 1: me get bucked so hard we wear these nasty black 649 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: bruises between our thighs for a month because we rode 650 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: the buck and refused to stop wearing our pretty skirts. 651 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,760 Speaker 1: Girls like me get thrown around over our horses heads, 652 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: smack into a light pole upside down, face first, and 653 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 1: still finish the lesson. Girls like me are badass, just 654 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 1: saying it's more than riding a big, pretty animal. It's real, 655 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: true blue, unconditional love. If you screw up, they forgive 656 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: you without strings. If they screw up, you have to 657 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: learn how to forgive them no strings. You have to 658 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: learn open communication. If you can't openly communicate, you'll get 659 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: hurt badly. And she goes on to say, you learn 660 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: what a truly happy human relationship can and should be 661 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: when you apply to what you've learned from your horse relationships. 662 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: You start learning what trust, honesty, and love feels like 663 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: instead of what others make it sound like. So that's 664 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,320 Speaker 1: the basis of my fascination with horses for what it's worth. 665 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: So thanks so much Kate for that insight, especially with 666 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: hoof knives. I didn't know hoof knife existed, So thanks 667 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: and anyone else who'd like to write to us Mom 668 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 1: stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email 669 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: address and for links to all of our social media 670 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, 671 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: including this one, which has links to all of our 672 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 1: sources that you can read along with us. You can 673 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: find it all at stuff Mom Never Told You dot 674 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: com For more on this and thousands of other topics, 675 00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 1: does it how stuff works dot com Show