WEBVTT - Ep. 689: A National Forest Supervisor Speaks Out 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.280 This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.560 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast. You can't 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:22.040 predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:25.520 by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.880 or scouting for el, First Light has performance apparel to 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.960 support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:35.159 first light dot com. F I R S T l 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:43.920 I t E dot com. Joined today by Scott Fitzwilliams. 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.280 Scott is here for very important sorry, a very important 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:52.920 that port and a very important discussion about our public lands, 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:58.400 our US National Forest System. Scott got on our radar, 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.280 Yes it was well. Here, I'll tell you the exact date. 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.800 Scott got at our radar in late February twenty twenty 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:10.319 five when in our community, in our circle, there was 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:18.440 circulated a headline White River Forest Supervisor Scott Fitzwilliams resigns 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.479 amid slashing of agency workforce. Then the follow up sentence. 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.920 Fitzwilliams guided the two point three million acre forests for 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:34.360 fifteen years, helping manage soaring visitation and an annual one 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:43.160 point six billion dollar impact in Colorado. The most trafficked 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:48.680 forest in the country. Spanning two point three million acres, 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:54.200 the White River National Forest has eleven major ski areas, 0:01:54.560 --> 0:02:00.760 eight wilderness areas, four reservoirs. Regularly hosts more than seventeen 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:06.120 million visitors a year. The forest supports more than twenty 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:12.080 two thousand jobs with forest dependent workers in its communities, 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:18.160 including Aspen, Breckenridge, Carbondale, Eagle, Glenwood Springs, Meeker, Rifle, and Veil, 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.240 earning nine hundred and sixty million years. According to the 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:28.320 Forest Service economic analysis of its top one hundred and 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.239 eleven properties, the term I'm not hip on but properties. 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:39.480 The Forest's annual impact of one point six billion dollars 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.320 of financial activity in its communities ranks as the highest 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:48.520 in the agency. And the gentleman we have here joining 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:53.040 us today was prompted to leave that post at the 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.320 age of sixty based on some of the things that 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:01.079 are going on right now with attack on federal land 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.440 management agencies. So we're going to talk about that story. 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.919 But first, welcome Scott. 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:07.520 Good to be here. Uh. 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:09.200 First, cal wanted to say something. 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.480 Oh, well, you know, it's customary on this this here 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.400 podcast and we talk about other things and rarely do 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.600 we even introduce our guests or acknowledge their existence during 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.960 that time, so ahead of schedule on that, But on 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:24.560 the other things topic. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.240 Yeah, the Newsy part, the people write in like, hey, 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.560 when you do the Newsy thing up front, you know, 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:30.880 and I'll be like, that's a great name for this, 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.600 the Newsy part. Yeah, No, they're I'm not afraid to 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.480 write with that. This this, this is what you're talking about, 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.000 matters a lot to me because this is like a 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.440 in many states, this is a thing that a lot 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:47.520 of hunters and anglers rely on. And I'll I'll leave 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:49.440 off a version of it, not leave off, but I'll 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.600 mention too, a version of it is in some states 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:57.280 all water trappers. Yeah, Like it's how they conduct their 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.280 It's how they conduct their business. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.960 Yeah. Is I mean there's a version of this that 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.800 is that is like class warfare almost right. So, I 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.280 mean this is one of the most accessible ways to 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:13.200 get out and recreate for the vast majority of US. 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.920 North Carolina Senate Bill two twenty, I think it got 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:22.440 heard yesterday. But there's always you always have a dog 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.640 in the fight. So North Carolina Senate Bill to twenty, 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:30.320 Section four, specifically if it were to pass, it would 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:37.480 become illegal to launch a vessel and this is primarily kayaks, canoes, 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.840 small vessels off of the public road right of ways, 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:48.200 meaning that certainly in a lot of states, your your 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:52.480 public roads have an easemnt. It's like shoulder to shoulder 0:04:53.320 --> 0:05:00.239 where you can park, and if public ground abuts that shoulder, 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.080 it's it's legal access to that public ground or in 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.599 this case, public water. So you would you would be 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.440 charged with I think a class four misdemeanor in the 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.200 state of North Carolina if this were where to go through. 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:19.320 As Steve pointed out, if you are a trapper, this 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:25.360 is very important, but if you're even a large water angler, 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:31.120 this would eliminate a lot of access to water, and 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.839 it would in a lot of places become prohibitive to 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:39.120 go go fishing unless you have access to a larger, 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:40.679 larger boat. 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:42.560 So let's be frank, it's a it's a war on 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:46.840 high schoolers and college kids. How else they supposed to 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:47.400 get in the water. 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.679 Yeah, oh yeah, So all those. 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.680 Beage access in this area. You go like cruising out 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.360 north of town, west of town, north northwest of town, 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.360 every bridge absolutely in the summer, you can't go to 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.600 any bridge without some college kid climbing in the water, 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.599 and I well, I mean, I know it's a different state, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.240 but this is like a fight that gets fought. This 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.920 is a fight that gets fought like access, stream access. 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.039 It's like it's it's, uh, the same plot. Now what 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:18.480 am I trying to say here? I'm trying to make 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:23.160 an analogy the same issue. It just gets fought in 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.080 like little different micro waves. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.479 So this isn't just stream access. This could be a 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:30.600 lake upon like. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:34.039 Any yeah, yeah, but I mean like it's it's I 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.400 don't know the particulars here, but it's usually coming like this. 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:41.200 It's it's people have there's some dude in Neon's riverfront 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:45.120 property or he owns lakefront property, and there's nothing that 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:49.719 burns his ass more than looking out the window and 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.520 here comes some dirt bag floating by yep, cash and fish, 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.120 and he's like, how in the world could it be? 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:02.120 How could it possibly be that I own this? In 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.000 some cases, I own both sides, and I got to 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:10.160 wake up to some dirt bag fishing yep, I mean 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.760 like fish how And then they get on the phone 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:14.480 and whatever. 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.920 Every other day there's like a video that shows up 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:22.000 some landowners screaming at someone for being in the water 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.440 that they're legally able to be in, you know. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.960 Every day. Yeah, so it's always that. It's like this 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:29.559 is like a public they're putting it as a public 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.640 safety issue. It's not. This is someone talking about there, 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.640 they're they're talking about something that's not what they're talking about. 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.400 Does the person that proposed this bill own some some land, 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.520 some waterfront land. 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:44.760 Someone someone has his ear. 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.600 Whoever introduced this bill may be friendly with some of 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:49.200 those folks. 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.920 You can picture the phone call. He's like, they're all 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.760 in the I can't figure it out. When I bought 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.440 this place, I thought, but there's all these kids floating by, 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.200 they're parked up and down the road. Hell, someone's going 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:01.800 to get hit. 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:02.600 Yep. 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.720 So this is in fact, yes. 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:08.440 Someone's gonna get hit. That's the problem. 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:13.360 You know, this is such an established form of access 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:18.640 in use in in North Carolina. There's guide books and 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:23.720 maps of where it is, you know, good places to launch, 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:28.560 safe places to park, et cetera. So this is not 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:30.680 like a brand new thing. All of a sudden, people 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.360 started showing up to you know, that dirt baggy spot 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:36.520 that I have to drive past in order to get 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.439 to my pay to play boat launch for my big boat. 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:41.160 And that. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.199 Yeah, so that's exactly what it is. So people need 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:45.800 to be aware. This North Carolina Senate Bill two twenty, 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:53.520 specifically section four, would turn you in to a misdemeanor. 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.360 Does this thing contrast with like an existing access law 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.920 in North Carolina, like a high water mark? Yeah, public 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:04.160 domain kind of thing. 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:10.640 Yeah, so you know, oddly enough, it wouldn't touch the 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.920 water access in the state of North Carolina, their water 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.920 access law, but it would just say as long as 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.920 you try to do it from here to here, it's 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:25.880 illegal now and you're you're going to get a misdemeanor. 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:32.000 One of the folks who wrote in on this sums 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:33.960 it up pretty well, says North Carolina has had a 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:37.640 long history of excellent water access and has a constitutional 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:41.000 right to use traditional methods to hunt fish and trap game. 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:46.199 This bill seems to be in violation of that. So amen, yep, 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:48.600 that's one of the good ones. 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:50.240 It's a war on college kids. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:52.240 It is for fishing. 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:55.440 You know. I was like, I try not to do this, 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:57.400 but now and then I'll catch myself just like looking 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.920 through like stuff on social media, you know, like never 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.440 leaves me where I want to be mentally, No, But 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.640 this guy's got a video. It's so funny. It's like, 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:06.360 there's this dude fishing. He's like, you tell, he's in 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.200 a kayak or something and he's got he's got one 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.439 of those like fishing go pro. So it's not aiming. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.040 It's aiming at him fishing, but it's not aiming at 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:16.719 what's going what's going on around him. But you can 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.560 see that he's like at a bridge and he says, 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.400 he goes, hey buddy, you tell he's like addressing someone. 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.040 Hey buddy, I'm not trying to come after you on this, 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.160 but just like, let me give you a little life advice. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:34.040 If someone's fishing a hole, you don't want to come 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:36.960 in and start fishing it. And often the distance your. 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:39.880 Like a little kid. 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:46.480 So that uh, oh, well, you know what. I wasn't 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.960 gonna do this. But now since we're on legislation. 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.000 No wonder they're worrying against those college kids. Oh yeah, 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:56.320 rude bastards. No, this was a little kid's voice. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:06.000 Uh. One more piece of legislation. Peace years ago. I 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:13.200 can't remember what the hell year it was California made, 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:19.360 in my view, an enormous mistake when they banned mountain 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:23.760 lion hunting. They banned lion hunting with dogs, they banned 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:28.480 mountain lion hunting. Now in California, thanks to this wisdom, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:34.160 they now Yeah, one of the one of the funniest 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:36.679 things about the lion banning in California. I might I 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:38.480 might be fudging my numbers a little bit, but they're 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.200 basically this. It was like hunters used to kill about 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.720 three hundred and fifty mountain lions a year in California. 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.240 Take a wild stab at about how many mountain lions 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.640 get killed every year now by animal damage control specialists 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.960 more a. Yeah, it was like they were like, okay, 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.360 dudes by licenses and they hunt lions. That's get rid 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.120 of that. And then we'll start paying people to kill 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:03.400 those lines and put them in the dumpster. 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:05.320 Uh. 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:09.760 And it's created where there's a problem now where And 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.959 like I don't want to necessarily call it, I want 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.760 to choose my words carefully. It has been observed in 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:22.440 California that that man, I hate to say this because 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.439 I don't want to like feed into I don't want 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:25.520 to you know, I don't want to do that thing 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:27.160 where you're trying to get people to agree with you, 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.520 and so you create like a false narrative. It has 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.360 been observed by some people who are like pretty good 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:38.439 on mountain lions and and pretty good on human wildlife interactions. 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:42.240 It has been observed that in the decades since then, 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.679 there has been less pressure on lions to avoid the 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:52.480 kind of human lion interface. Really good biologists, really good 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:59.520 line experts, dudes that we know, uh Bart George, No, 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:07.040 Bruce Bart, Yeah, Bruce's hunt these bruces in Idahoa, Washington State. 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.880 Bruces in Washington State. Yeah, Okay, whole career and chase 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.960 the moulines. And he has observed that over the years 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.640 in these states where they've put like heavy restrictions or 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.120 band lion hunting, you see an increase in human lion 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.439 conflicts because they just don't the lions just don't have 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:29.640 a perception of like trouble. They don't associate humans with trouble. 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.120 We've had on a researcher Bart George is even working 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:38.560 on a project where they'll go out and they'll get 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.400 a they'll get a collar on a mountain lion that's 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.200 causing trouble like killing pets, killing livestock, whatever. They'll get 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.960 a collar on it and they'll see, can we train 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.400 this lion to avoid people by Because it's wearing a collar, 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.960 we know right where it is. So we're gonna go 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.080 and play the sound of human voices. When he was 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.120 doing this project, he would use this podcast. He would 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:05.800 play this podcast to the lions and monitor how close 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:10.280 can I get to the lion before the lion will move, 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.920 And at times he would get fifteen feet thirty feet 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.760 from the lion playing human voices before the lion moves. 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.720 Then they put dogs on it and treat the lion 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:20.880 and mess with it. That's not the word he uses, 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:22.240 but they mess with it. They hair assed. 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.400 Yeah, we did a whole episode on it, Living with lions. 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.840 Living with lions. They worry it, that's what they say. 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:31.040 In Europe. They would worry the lion with dogs. And 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.000 then you let some time go by, and then you 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.520 come and play human voices to the lion, and the 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.400 lion like, ah shit, these guys comes again. These people 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.440 are trouble and he wants to leave. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:40.680 Well. 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.760 Bart had found some positive reinforcement that some level of 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:49.080 human pressure some level of inconvenience around humans, and the 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.680 use of dogs pushes lions away and makes them kind 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.440 of like less inclined to come to you human voices. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.400 We had on some guys on the show. We had 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.160 Wyatt Brooks on the show, and Wyatt Brooks was hunting 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:08.280 shed hunting hunting shed Antler's with his brother Taylor, and 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.680 his brother Taylor was killed by a mountain lion in 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.600 el Dorado County, California, and those guys came on the show. 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:17.960 Or sorry, Taylor who's passed away obviously did not, but 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.200 Wyatt came on the show to talk about Taylor's death. 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:29.119 In response to this, Senator Marie Alvarado Gill has introduced 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:34.920 a bill SB eighteen, which she views would enhance public 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.200 safety and reduced loss of livestock by establishing a five 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.280 year pilot program in Eldorado County, during which permitted houndsman 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:49.000 with trained hounds may Hayes' problem mountain lions away from 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.200 areas where they posed a threat to public safety, livestock 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:57.960 or pets. I like that's great, I applauded. I don't 0:15:57.960 --> 0:15:58.880 mean to trivialize it. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:00.440 I just. 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.040 I guess it's a step in the right direction, I 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:06.920 would be so much happier. And I don't I know 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:08.800 it would take like an act of God, meaning an 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:14.560 act of Congress to undo the mountain lion hunting band, 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.359 but I think that that's what needs to happen in California. 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.080 The thing is that that I find with that might 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.600 happen with this is the anti hunting folks, the animal 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.800 rights activists would probably look at this as a negative, 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.680 like it's bad to go hace those lions, and they 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.880 should be looking at it, you know, like, don't go 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.280 bother those lions, just don't harass them with dogs, and 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.960 they should be all for it because it's probably gonna 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:43.480 save some lions lives. 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.960 Right, Yeah, my view on it and reluctance to dig 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:48.840 into it too much, not reluctant to dig into but 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:54.640 like choosing my words carefully is I like, I don't 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.480 think of mountain lions like as a negative, right, But 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:00.720 if I saw a mountainlin and I'd be like cool. 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.159 When we have bears coming in, I like encourage my 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.399 neighbors to not tattletale on them because I'm like, if 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.560 you tattletale on that bear, it's dead. They're not going 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:12.200 to spend a bunch of money and have some guys 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.440 spend two days moving that bear two hundred miles away 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:15.600 so we can walk back here. 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:19.719 I believe I told your wife one time. I'm like, Katie, Uh, 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:22.960 you didn't pull the trigger, but you loaded the gun. 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:25.200 I know. 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:29.240 I'm always like, can't don't tattletale on bears, because if, like, 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.600 if one person tattletales, they kind of like, we'll keep 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:36.320 an eye on it. When ten people tattletale a bears 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:37.040 dead bear. 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.480 When I lived in Eagle, Colorado, we're part of you know, 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.160 near the White River National Forest. Occasionally we would get 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.680 reverse nine one one calls saying there's. 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.159 A mountain lion in your neighborhood. 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:54.560 No way, and usually in like late winter, and so 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.679 like you know that lion's on the hit list, right. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.960 Yeah, So in my choose my words carefully, thing is 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.640 I look at it like I like, like I look 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:12.280 at it as a regulated mountain lion hunting under quota 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.920 systems and bag limits and seasons is in no way 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:22.359 detrimental to having a healthy population of lions. 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:23.280 Uh. 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.439 I think it was wrong. It was ill advised to 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.520 ban lion hunting, and I look at this as a 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.520 positive because it's like a step in the right direction hopefully, 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.000 But I just can't act like I'm glad about it 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:36.680 because I'm super scared allions. 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:42.240 Yeah, and Steve's trying not to like use the the 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:48.840 fear argument. There's I don't know if there's there's been 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.800 a study that like definitively proves hunting reduces wildlife conflict. 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.720 But at the same time, it's like, well, areas that 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:02.119 don't have black bears don't have black bear conflict, that 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.480 don't have lands, don't have land conflict. 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.760 I was doing some research for project Steve and I 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:12.040 are working on, and it was regarding the black bear 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:16.880 situation in New Jersey when what was his name, Bill Murphy? 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:21.560 Murphy Murphy outlawed essentially, like first it was he outlauded 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.240 on state and then he let the management plan expire, 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:28.000 so bear hunting became completely illegal in New Jersey. 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.520 For com and then they called it be a miakopa. 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:34.120 Yeah he got he listened to people who were real 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:34.720 pissed off. 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:35.440 Is that what you mean? 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:37.160 No, he said, I was wrong. 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:42.119 Yeah, But anyway, they did a study during that time 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.560 frame of human bear conflicts. 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.440 And and you. 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:51.760 Said, there's no like study that's been done on increased conflict. 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.320 But it was something like two and thirty seven percent 0:19:55.560 --> 0:20:00.439 increase and bears killing pets, bears breaking in the cars, 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.679 you know, all the thing. So it was like the 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.960 outlawed hunting and that stuff shot through the roof. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:11.040 So you know what you will. 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:15.440 But yeah, sure anybody could set up their own little experiment, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.080 have a garden, and then have a bunch of rabbits 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.399 eat in the garden, and then do a couple of 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.800 high profile killings of some of those rabbits, and you 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.400 will see the other rabbits are like, jeez, I'm going 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.760 to the middle of the night now, not doing that 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:29.760 in the morning anymore. 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:30.320 You know. 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.960 It's just it's all right, Scott. Tell me about your career, man, 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.760 how'd you wind up? Like, how'd you wind up there? 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:42.520 How'd you wind up as the White River Forest Supervisor? 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:43.320 What was your path? 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:46.359 Oh, it's a long path, you know. I grew up 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.440 in Wisconsin and uh ended up in Colorado for graduate 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.359 school and tripped into an internship with a place called 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.439 the fore Service. I knew nothing about I knew. The 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.600 difference was you couldn't hunt in parks and you could 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.800 hunt on the forest. That's what I knew the difference. 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.520 And so, uh started my career and bounced all over 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:07.320 the country. I think I worked in seven states. I 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:15.320 was in Cody, Wyoming, Jackson, Wyoming, Dickinson, North Dakota. I 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:17.760 was on the National Grasslands out there. And then I 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:19.880 went to Sitka, Alaska for five. 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.480 Years really yeah, for the Forest Service, and that was 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:25.800 on Tongos, Yeah, working on tongas on the Tongus. 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:30.080 Yeah. I was Jim Bachell's boss. Really, you know you 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:34.399 guys had man, Yeah, yeah, And uh, then I went 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.560 to Oregon for a few years and Eugene and then 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:42.120 ended up in back in Glenwood Springs on the White River. 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.040 So I started as an intern in Colorado and ended 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:46.120 up finishing my career. 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:48.080 And what kind of work we were you doing like 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:49.960 throughout those you. 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.879 Know I started really my originally I started kind of 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.560 the public affairs and legislative affairs world for a few years, 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.560 and then uh then I became a line off district 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:06.200 ranger and then I was a Recreation Wilderness Minerals land 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:10.400 staff on the Tonguus. That's what I worked on that. 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:12.440 That's why Jim worked for me. And then uh, because 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:16.679 he's a geology's jelogist. Yeah and so and then I 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:19.160 was I've been a line officer, you know, either a 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:24.000 district granger, deputy for supervisor, for supervisor. So it's been great. 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.800 I mean to work in so many incredible places, is 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.280 you know, I'm so grateful for this career. It's been unbelievable. 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.720 Can you explain for folks what is the scope of 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.280 a force supervisor? And then if you could talk a 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:41.640 little bit about how that could get more and more 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:43.840 complex as you enter into a forest like the White 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:44.520 River forest. 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:49.080 Yeah, so the way the agencies set up we we 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.760 they give line officer or delegated authority for a chunk 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:56.280 of land and in case of a forest, a forest 0:22:57.560 --> 0:22:59.840 depends where it is, you know, and on the Tongus 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:02.119 it's seventeen million acres or the White Rivers two and 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:04.720 a half, and you know in the east there smaller force. 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:09.800 And basically you have all responsibilities for that piece of ground. 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:14.200 I always told people it's toilets, the targets and everything 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:16.919 in between. You you're responsible for everything, and so uh, 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:20.840 you know, you're responsible for the money, you know, the budget, 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:26.120 the targets, the accomplishments, the people and and but these 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:28.960 jobs now, you know, in these line officer jobs, they're 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:33.760 they're really evolved into you know, part of a community. 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:37.320 You've got to be the the you know, you're the name, 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:40.520 you know, the face of the agency in that community. 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:44.359 And so you know, and as we collaborate and we 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:47.480 work together, it's so you know, it can get complex 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:51.240 because you're the one that signs the decision for that 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:55.360 timber sale or that new trail or you know, closing 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:57.720 that trail and and your name's on it, and so. 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:01.680 Or you may have had like an up on the 0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:05.399 tongs Oil and gas or well the gre industry. 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:08.880 Greene Creek Mine and the Kensington Mine opink do you know, Yeah, 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:13.600 those are huge mines, and so you know, and I 0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:17.800 think like we all know, I mean, everyone loves this 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:22.200 public land and wants to see it manage a certain way, 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:23.879 and so it gets a little harder and harder as 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:26.320 people just you know, a certain way. 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:29.960 My way I want it done for hunting and fishing specifically. 0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:33.080 Yeah, but you know Gifford Pitcher who started the Force 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:35.240 over Sea and Teddy Roosevelt back in nineteen oh five, 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:38.200 and I still believe in this, and I hope as 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:41.600 the restructuring that has taking place, this doesn't go away. 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:46.800 They purposely set it up where it was very decentralized. 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:49.600 We want the decision making where the communities are. We 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:54.679 want the decision making where the you know, where it 0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:57.880 affects you know how, where it affects people. And that 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:01.000 has been That's why I love the job. Is I 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:04.359 rarely in all the years got told you need to 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:08.000 do this on this project from a boss or from above. 0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:11.320 And that's the way Pincho and Roosevelt wanted it and 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:14.200 wanted it decentralized on the ground. 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:17.040 Disregarding what's happened in the last couple of months, Was 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:22.879 that consistent from like that ability to be decentralized? Was 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:25.960 that consistent from like one administration to the next. 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:29.440 Yeah, I mean ebbs and flows in different emphasis. That's 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:32.000 always been the case. And but we've kind of always 0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:37.240 navigated through that and and save a few, there's always 0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:40.119 been a few things where it's been top down. Some 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:42.960 of the I don't know how many revisions of the 0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:44.840 Tonguess Forest plant. 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:45.760 Oh yeah. 0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:50.240 Oftentimes that became extremely politicized, and Washington kind of ran 0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:52.800 that towards some undersecretary. 0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:58.680 Yeah, in that case, it fell into like a administrations 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:02.119 one administration would a major plan into a fact in 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:05.040 another administration and call it into question, right, and you 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:06.200 just probably got to roll with. 0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:10.320 That, right absolutely. And you know our laws National Force 0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:13.000 Management Act and on the on the BLM side, FLIPMA, 0:26:13.600 --> 0:26:17.480 they're set up to put a ten fifteen twenty year 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:20.600 plans together, a force plan that's supposed to take some 0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:22.960 of that level some of that. It's like, Okay, here's 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:24.840 how we're going to do it for the next fifteen years. 0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:28.360 And it's worked well, and I still have hopes it's 0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:32.439 going to work well, but certainly under you know what 0:26:32.680 --> 0:26:36.240 current restructuring, I'm not sure. I just hope we maintain 0:26:36.359 --> 0:26:42.159 that decentralized management and decision making because I think Pincher 0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:45.000 and Roosevelt had it right two in nineteen oh five, 0:26:45.240 --> 0:26:47.359 and I think it still applies today. It's just harder 0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:48.280 because of more people. 0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:55.160 As a forest supervisor, you got to wake up every day, 0:26:56.160 --> 0:26:58.880 someone has to be pissed at you pretty much. Yeah, 0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:01.120 can you lay out a little bit and you can 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:03.080 keep it. You can keep it true to Colorado and 0:27:03.160 --> 0:27:05.040 we can leave tongus in the rearview mirror for a minute. 0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:08.639 But can you can you explain a little bit like 0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:10.680 the push and pull? Yeah, I mean, it's got to 0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:13.400 be like you got just to give you a sense 0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:15.440 of what I'm picturing. You can correct me if I'm wrong. 0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:17.840 I mean, it's gotta be like a lot of fire conversation, 0:27:19.280 --> 0:27:26.080 cattle conversation, logging conversation, access kind of preservation conversations, huge 0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:30.800 conversations around wildlife, dealing with state Game agency, like like 0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:33.440 who is trying to get a hold of you, you know, 0:27:33.680 --> 0:27:36.000 throughout the year right to tell you how you ought 0:27:36.000 --> 0:27:36.680 to be doing things. 0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:41.240 All of the above, Steve, it's it ebbs and flows, 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:46.199 a little bit, vegetation management, you know, timber harvest, fuels 0:27:46.200 --> 0:27:50.520 projects are all can always be a pinch point for people, 0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:53.879 you know people, and certainly in Montana it's you know, 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:56.200 it's Montana in this region is one of the most 0:27:56.240 --> 0:28:00.439 litigated regions as far as fuels projects and timber sales 0:28:00.440 --> 0:28:08.240 and stuff. You know, it's it's the contrast of leave 0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:13.320 it alone, preservation first, conservation use you know, that's whatever 0:28:13.359 --> 0:28:15.680 it is it doesn't matter if it's cattle, if it 0:28:15.720 --> 0:28:22.639 doesn't matter if it's you know, logging mining. People just 0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:27.080 have visions of what their national force should look like 0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:30.240 and don't want to change. It's getting harder because so 0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:33.720 many people are moving from places that they think it's 0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:37.040 a national park. Yeah, I mean we've had what are 0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:39.760 you doing cutting trees? Well, we've been doing it since 0:28:39.840 --> 0:28:42.760 nineteen oh five. I mean it's part of our mission. 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:49.200 It's in legislation requiring us to do that. And the 0:28:49.280 --> 0:28:52.640 toughest ones these days, especially in places like Vale and 0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:59.400 Aspen and Summit County and is individual landowners with the 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:04.240 easement or a lands issue or need something. They're tough 0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:06.520 because they're generally rich. 0:29:06.760 --> 0:29:08.280 And you mean you're. 0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:11.400 Talking like second homeowners that butt up against exactly. 0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:14.720 Yeah, there's a lot that's that's been really challenging over 0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:17.320 the years. But it's all challenging, but it's all about, like, help. 0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:18.760 Help people understand what you're talking about. I have a 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:20.800 sense of what you're talking about, but say people that 0:29:20.840 --> 0:29:23.240 aren't really that don't follow the politics. 0:29:22.720 --> 0:29:25.120 Of Yeah, as as more and more people move into 0:29:25.160 --> 0:29:28.000 the urban interface, you know, the forested lands, a lot 0:29:28.000 --> 0:29:30.360 of it. They have to get an easement from the 0:29:30.360 --> 0:29:33.600 for service to put a driveway in, or to put 0:29:33.600 --> 0:29:37.880 a power lion in, or to or they have a 0:29:37.880 --> 0:29:40.440 crappy survey and they ended up building part of their house, 0:29:40.480 --> 0:29:43.160 which happens all the time on National Force System lands. 0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:45.560 And then and then we say, hey, you got to 0:29:45.560 --> 0:29:48.640 move your house. Or there's this thing called the Small 0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:51.720 Tracks Act that can purchase the land if if if 0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:54.240 it was proven it was done accidentally, you know, bad 0:29:54.280 --> 0:29:58.160 survey or something. So so as more and more people 0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:01.120 coming into these areas are building these homes in the 0:30:01.160 --> 0:30:04.200 forest and up in the hills, you know, they require 0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:07.320 all these easements and right aways and permits and things 0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:10.680 like that. It's one or two people that consume a 0:30:10.720 --> 0:30:13.880 tremendous amount of time and and they just don't understand. 0:30:13.560 --> 0:30:15.720 Because they're lawyered up, totally lawyered up. 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:19.920 Ah and and they you know, and they know people, Well, 0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:21.800 I'm gonna call so and so so that that's how 0:30:21.960 --> 0:30:25.800 that that bugs me because it's not a you know, 0:30:26.240 --> 0:30:29.520 collective society wide discussion of how we should manage a 0:30:29.600 --> 0:30:33.280 landscape or forest. It's just one dude with a house. 0:30:33.360 --> 0:30:36.280 And yet my staff is spending you know, three days 0:30:36.320 --> 0:30:39.440 a week working on that you know project, So got it. 0:30:39.720 --> 0:30:43.960 How was it dealing with the big ski industry corporations 0:30:44.000 --> 0:30:45.920 because like you're, you're you're in a posi, you are 0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:48.760 in a position where a lot of national forest managers 0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:51.440 aren't you know, dealing with so much of that. 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:57.120 Yeah, it's they're big companies and and and but most 0:30:57.200 --> 0:31:00.360 of the ski areas have been permitted. I think it 0:31:00.400 --> 0:31:03.240 would have been harder when they were permitting new ski ariers. 0:31:04.120 --> 0:31:06.400 You know. Now it was more about can they do 0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:10.160 this expansion, can they replace this lift or build this 0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:13.920 new restaurant. It's still tough. I mean those numbers you 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:16.800 talked about at the beginning, the twenty two thousand employees, 0:31:16.840 --> 0:31:19.960 and you know, one point six billion dollar contribution to GDP. 0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:23.400 Most of it's from that industry. I mean they employ 0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:26.000 a lot of people and pour a lot of money. 0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:31.400 But it's challenging because you look around the West and 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:35.840 where we have these resort communities, it's completely changed. I mean, 0:31:36.280 --> 0:31:39.040 nobody could afford to live there. You know, it's crowded, 0:31:39.160 --> 0:31:42.840 it's expensive, it's you know, seventy percent of the homes 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:47.880 for example, in Summit County where Breckenridge and a Basin 0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:50.160 and Keystone are seventy percent of the homes are second 0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:50.880 home owners. 0:31:51.520 --> 0:31:56.000 Seventy seven right, Well. 0:31:55.200 --> 0:31:57.600 So no one can afford to live there, and so 0:31:57.680 --> 0:32:00.200 then you struggle with like all these mountain top I'm 0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:02.800 dealing with with affordable housing and. 0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:06.080 Those ski areas too, Like they'll tell you that they 0:32:06.080 --> 0:32:08.800 can't exist without a summer program as well. So it's 0:32:08.840 --> 0:32:11.600 not just in the winter when there's a ton of 0:32:11.640 --> 0:32:13.200 snow and the animals aren't visible. 0:32:13.320 --> 0:32:16.920 Yeah, we permitted the first at on Veil Mountain, the 0:32:16.920 --> 0:32:21.880 first summer uses. The Congress passed legislation to allow them 0:32:21.920 --> 0:32:25.440 to do things like ziplines and you know, alpine coasters 0:32:25.440 --> 0:32:27.760 and things like that, and we were the first force 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:31.480 to do that. The part about our force is the 0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:34.320 White Rivers, all the big resorts are there, and so 0:32:34.960 --> 0:32:39.240 we're always first in experimenting with whatever it might be. 0:32:39.280 --> 0:32:43.840 But you know, they're a good partner and they there. 0:32:44.240 --> 0:32:48.840 You know, I like working with innovative creative industries, and 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:51.360 they're one. You know, they're always looking at the next 0:32:51.360 --> 0:32:54.680 best thing. And but you know, I think we have 0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:57.400 to step back and realize Okay, the impacts are real. 0:32:58.240 --> 0:33:01.880 It's only four thousand acres of permitted land that they 0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:04.280 have a you know, their permits on that. 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:05.400 They actually all total. 0:33:05.760 --> 0:33:09.080 Well, let no, on the White River, it's only forty 0:33:09.120 --> 0:33:12.640 thousand so so of toll. I'm sorry, But say one resort, 0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:15.880 say a resort like Snow Mass, I think it's about 0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:21.280 four thousand acres under permit. Forty thousand acres of of 0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:24.560 land is under permit and skiers on the White River 0:33:25.920 --> 0:33:28.320 not out of two point three and a half million. 0:33:28.360 --> 0:33:32.160 That's not a huge amount. But the impact is way 0:33:32.240 --> 0:33:35.200 past that, you know, because it just brings people and 0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:37.160 lots of them. And so I think we've got I 0:33:37.160 --> 0:33:38.760 think that's something when in the future we're gonna have 0:33:38.760 --> 0:33:43.080 to really start to recognize as these resort towns and 0:33:43.120 --> 0:33:47.040 these you know, kind of high end tourism places, we're 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:49.000 going to have to manage that in some way that 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:53.200 at least realize that the effects are way beyond the 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:54.160 resort or whatever. 0:33:55.200 --> 0:33:59.640 Oh, just the you know, all these towns like that 0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:04.920 is the industry there. It's support the ski areas over 0:34:04.960 --> 0:34:09.000 anything else. And when I used to go to meetings 0:34:09.040 --> 0:34:11.319 and the ski town that I lived in. It was 0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:14.800 just amazing, Like the the piddly stuff that the community 0:34:14.840 --> 0:34:18.480 would get involved in, like horseshit on mountain bike trails 0:34:18.480 --> 0:34:22.799 that were actually just game trails that uh people started 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:28.960 riding mountain bikes on, and the like amount of noise 0:34:29.000 --> 0:34:33.560 pollution the mountain would put off during non ski season 0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:37.400 times of year, right that. I mean, if you got 0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:40.200 up at elevation where they were doing the work, you 0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:43.560 could hear almost conversations a lot of the times from 0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:50.200 miles away. The trash associated any same too, you know, 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:54.520 that's you know, you goes hike the ski lift lines 0:34:56.719 --> 0:34:59.400 you know during non ski season and the amount of 0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:03.759 shit underneath the chairlifts. It's just great. And you know 0:35:03.840 --> 0:35:06.239 they do like cleanups and stuff, but I mean there's 0:35:06.280 --> 0:35:07.760 so much stuff. 0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:08.240 Yeah. 0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:12.520 How much does it cost for a ski area to permit, 0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:16.200 say four thousand acres? Like is it an annual thing? 0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:19.840 Yeah, it's a really complicated formula that I can't explain. 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:24.000 But it's based on the revenue you derive from activities 0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:26.760 on national force. So the lift is on national forests, 0:35:27.480 --> 0:35:32.520 restaurants on National force obviously a permit you know, the pass, 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:38.239 so it's you know on our forest, which was by 0:35:38.320 --> 0:35:41.360 far the most. It was seventy sixty five percent of 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:45.080 the entire nation's fees collection. We collected about twenty eight 0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:49.320 million dollars from the eleven resorts. Wow. Yeah, is a 0:35:49.400 --> 0:35:51.040 nation it like a profit shared? 0:35:51.080 --> 0:35:52.560 Does it not work as a profit share. It's like 0:35:52.600 --> 0:35:53.400 a revenue share. 0:35:53.960 --> 0:35:56.600 No, it's just like a permit. I mean, just like 0:35:56.600 --> 0:35:57.520 a grazing permit. 0:35:57.680 --> 0:36:00.600 They pay No, but you said that they pay relative revenue. 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:01.080 Yeah. 0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:06.120 No, it's just really their relative tanks. If their visitation tanks. 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:08.799 They'll pay us less money. Okay, yeah, yeah, exactly, there's 0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:14.640 a minimum obviously, but their businesses aren't tanking of late anyway. 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:20.040 So nationwide we collect about thirty five million dollars off 0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:23.560 of ski areas in the country. Here's the little catch 0:36:23.760 --> 0:36:26.200 is not one penny of that comes back to the 0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:31.200 to the forest that it was. It is the only 0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:34.520 thing we permit that no money comes back to the 0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:39.440 local forest. And uh hmm. There's been a act in 0:36:39.480 --> 0:36:45.479 Congress called the Shred Act that has that has uh yeah, 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:48.600 I forget how what an X ski area, but anyway. 0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:50.480 That was whatever it stood for, it was an afterthought. 0:36:50.960 --> 0:36:57.840 Absolutely they figure out, but it would it would return 0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:02.120 a good portion of the money back to where it 0:37:02.160 --> 0:37:05.680 came from, which I've been advocating for because they there's 0:37:05.680 --> 0:37:08.480 a lot of work not just associated with the resorts 0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:09.840 but all the people that come with it. 0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:11.960 Well, how the hell did that get pulled out of 0:37:12.680 --> 0:37:16.080 How did that get pulled out of the general system? 0:37:16.920 --> 0:37:20.319 If you do like like timber harvest cattle leases, you 0:37:20.400 --> 0:37:22.919 get some of the revenue. But how did skiing sit 0:37:22.960 --> 0:37:25.360 in a different landscape when back. 0:37:25.120 --> 0:37:28.520 In the nineties when it used to be outfittering god 0:37:28.600 --> 0:37:31.759 fees used to go to the US Treasury. Okay, campgoground 0:37:31.800 --> 0:37:33.120 fees went to the US Treasury. 0:37:33.120 --> 0:37:35.040 It all went to So there was example, then there. 0:37:35.000 --> 0:37:38.080 Was what was called the feed Demo program where we 0:37:38.120 --> 0:37:39.680 got to keep all those fees. Now we get to 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:41.879 keep all the outfitter fees and all the campground fees 0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:45.719 and all everything. And then they looked at skiers and 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:48.879 they specifically looked at the White River Forest and said, 0:37:49.560 --> 0:37:52.400 we're not given that one forest twenty eight million dollars. 0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:55.319 So that's basically how it got got it. It's just 0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:58.000 too much jingle, too much jingle in one place, and 0:37:58.440 --> 0:38:00.319 so now there's a way they can spread it out. 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:04.759 But now because of the budget. It there's a term 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:09.479 in the in Congress, the Legislative Congress and the budget bills, 0:38:09.560 --> 0:38:12.200 is called scoring. And it's like golf. And I know 0:38:12.200 --> 0:38:15.480 how much you like golf too, Steve, you don't want 0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:18.719 to score. It's the Office of Management Budget gives a 0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:21.440 piece of legislation a score, and it's a financial score, 0:38:21.520 --> 0:38:23.560 and the more you score, the less chances has So 0:38:24.120 --> 0:38:28.800 in that case, I'm sorry, I'm not following. It's it's 0:38:28.840 --> 0:38:32.040 it's a it's a budget's score and they would look 0:38:32.080 --> 0:38:34.320 at it and say, okay, that's forty five million dollars 0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:38.560 that's normally going to the US treasury the ten years 0:38:38.640 --> 0:38:42.359 scores four hundred and fifty million dollars. You don't want 0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:45.040 to score four hundred and fifty million dollars because they say, 0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:47.080 you got to find that money somewhere else, because we're 0:38:47.080 --> 0:38:50.160 not going to, you know, lose that four hundred and 0:38:50.160 --> 0:38:53.080 fifty million dollars over ten years to their treasury. So 0:38:53.520 --> 0:38:56.880 it's the problem is it scores. OMB gives it a 0:38:56.920 --> 0:38:59.160 score of four hundred and fifty million for a ten year, 0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:03.520 so we haven't it hasn't been passed bipartisan bill that 0:39:03.800 --> 0:39:09.799 has significant support on both sides of the aisle. But 0:39:11.000 --> 0:39:12.799 just what it is right now, it's a bummer because 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:15.680 it's the only only fee we collect. 0:39:15.960 --> 0:39:20.040 When you run a forest. How do they present to 0:39:20.120 --> 0:39:24.680 you or or do they present to you some version 0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:28.520 of a P and L like like what are the 0:39:28.600 --> 0:39:30.080 expectations of a forest? 0:39:30.280 --> 0:39:35.040 Yeah, we're each forest is allocated a budget. Now they've 0:39:35.120 --> 0:39:37.719 changed a few things and centritized more and more of 0:39:37.760 --> 0:39:43.160 the budget. But for most of my career, and you'd 0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:45.560 wrestle for you know, make your point and say you 0:39:45.600 --> 0:39:48.200 get this much money, and you're going to get this 0:39:48.400 --> 0:39:53.000 much in recreation, this much in timber, this much and grazing, 0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:56.439 and with that money, we expect you to achieve these 0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:59.040 targets I'm gonna give you, you know, the regional office 0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:01.400 will give me x amount and timber. We want you 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:07.040 to produce twenty five thousand cubic feet of timber or a 0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:09.920 million board feed or whatever. It is same with grazing. 0:40:09.960 --> 0:40:12.759 If you get this much grazing, you got to, you know, 0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:18.320 administer this many grazing permits. And recreation is a little 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:20.680 more obtuse but miles of trail. We used to get 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:25.360 trail maintenance dollars and you get a certain amount of trails, 0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:29.280 we expect you to clear this many miles of trails. 0:40:29.560 --> 0:40:32.600 And then, I mean throughout my career, I mean it 0:40:32.640 --> 0:40:35.720 was a you didn't spend overspend that. If you did, 0:40:36.160 --> 0:40:38.760 you better had another buddy that could cover you another 0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:42.319 forest that because budgets are spun up at the regional level. 0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:47.560 So the accountability was there, we weren't. You know, it's 0:40:47.600 --> 0:40:51.080 called the Anti Deficiency Act. If an agency spends more 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:53.399 that it's appropriated, and I've never seen it happen because 0:40:53.440 --> 0:40:55.759 it's a big no, no god. 0:40:55.840 --> 0:41:00.279 It is there ever, an expectation articulated to for a 0:41:00.360 --> 0:41:07.440 supervisor about how much economic activity your force should facilitate, 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:10.080 Like is that part of your mandate or is that 0:41:10.200 --> 0:41:12.600 just something that happens out of it happens by chance? 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:17.640 No, Uh, it's not. They don't say we want this 0:41:17.760 --> 0:41:21.120 much economic activity, but they say we're going we want 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:24.120 you to be able to produce this much board feet 0:41:24.160 --> 0:41:29.040 of timber, or we need you you're getting this mineral's money. 0:41:29.160 --> 0:41:31.680 We need you to get that mind approved or get 0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:37.160 the eis done and same thing with recreation. Yeah, I 0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:39.440 mean that's a it's always been a driver in the 0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:43.719 national force system. Is the economics and not not to 0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:46.960 the You know, that doesn't mean we don't get to 0:41:46.960 --> 0:41:48.759 balance it, but it's important for sure. 0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:50.720 Yeah, like fiscal responsibility. 0:41:50.760 --> 0:41:54.560 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that doesn't mean there's not areas 0:41:54.600 --> 0:41:55.080 to improve. 0:41:55.360 --> 0:41:57.560 I mean, yeah, what what is an area to improve? 0:41:57.640 --> 0:42:00.200 I want to get to the areas of improvement. I'd 0:42:00.239 --> 0:42:05.200 love to get like, how, how is like the permitting 0:42:05.320 --> 0:42:10.040 for a mine work? Is it on the same because 0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:13.319 I always get wrapped up with the mining acts and 0:42:13.520 --> 0:42:17.560 I'm like, yeah, mines don't make us any money. But 0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:23.239 based off of how you explained the permitting for a 0:42:23.239 --> 0:42:26.600 ski area, now I'm like, okay, well, obviously the mine 0:42:26.640 --> 0:42:28.560 has to have some sort of a revenue share there 0:42:28.600 --> 0:42:30.760 as well, or percentage of revenue. 0:42:31.160 --> 0:42:34.879 Well, they the eighteenth you know, we're still operating under 0:42:34.880 --> 0:42:38.760 the eighteen seventy two mining law and it's been amended 0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:42.680 and there's been tweaks to it. But where where there's 0:42:42.760 --> 0:42:47.360 not a revenue sharing of hard rock minerals, oil and gas, 0:42:47.960 --> 0:42:50.680 you know, leasing, you know, look at what we call 0:42:50.960 --> 0:42:54.720 get leaseable minerals. It's twenty five percent. You know, everything 0:42:54.760 --> 0:42:58.080 that comes off of a federal mineral twenty five percent 0:42:58.120 --> 0:42:59.760 comes back to the government. 0:42:59.440 --> 0:43:00.959 Not mineral oil and gas. 0:43:01.080 --> 0:43:04.560 Yeah, twenty mineral estate. I'm sorry. And what about coal? 0:43:05.160 --> 0:43:07.320 Is that under mining or is that under oil and gas? 0:43:07.640 --> 0:43:11.000 Coal's undermine, so it's under the eighteen seventy two so 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:16.280 it's considered locatable. So coal, gold, silver, Okay, precious metals. 0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:19.560 So they have to pay a land use fee, you know, 0:43:19.600 --> 0:43:22.920 for occupying that piece of national force. But they don't pay, 0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:26.560 you know, if they they don't pay for the loot 0:43:26.719 --> 0:43:30.080 the stuff, not like they do oil and gas, and 0:43:30.120 --> 0:43:32.760 not like you do with timber. Nope. No. 0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:35.680 But if you read, like if I were to pop 0:43:35.760 --> 0:43:38.960 up the eighteen seventy two Mining Act right now, which. 0:43:38.760 --> 0:43:39.920 I got, I got my pocket. 0:43:40.040 --> 0:43:43.279 Yeah, well, I mean this is I can't believe you 0:43:44.239 --> 0:43:46.719 because it is referenced all over and depending on what 0:43:46.880 --> 0:43:50.240 historical source like you read about when it was enacted, 0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:53.160 it was like, oh, this is really how it's going 0:43:53.239 --> 0:43:54.560 to be. It was kind of a joke when we 0:43:54.600 --> 0:43:59.040 wrote it, as was like the diamond clause too. So 0:43:59.120 --> 0:44:00.480 depending on what worse it was. 0:44:00.480 --> 0:44:02.920 Like, you mean it was written by the it was 0:44:02.960 --> 0:44:04.040 written by the extractor. 0:44:04.680 --> 0:44:07.480 Yes, and it was, but it was also written and 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:10.279 I like, well, this will never go anywhere, ha ha 0:44:10.280 --> 0:44:14.040 ha type of way. But it's five dollars an acre 0:44:14.440 --> 0:44:15.360 a surface acre. 0:44:15.400 --> 0:44:17.160 Yeah, that they pay a fee. 0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:20.000 Is that still the Is that still the thing? 0:44:20.160 --> 0:44:22.719 It's yeah, I don't have a lot of my eye. 0:44:22.719 --> 0:44:26.120 Haven't dealt with minds. Yeah, it's cheap, it's it's ridiculous, 0:44:26.840 --> 0:44:32.600 But the law hasn't been changed, and so hmm. Yeah. 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:37.080 Locatables are hard, you know, because those are just I 0:44:37.239 --> 0:44:39.279 like dealing with oil and gas leasing. It's a nice 0:44:39.440 --> 0:44:44.319 organized process. It's clear. Locatables are really complicated. 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:49.839 And I'm not I'm not a big minerals guy. Can 0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:54.400 can you help me understand? Like how is oil not 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:57.279 a locatable? Like what the hell is locatable mean? The 0:44:57.400 --> 0:44:58.520 terminology I mean. 0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:03.040 Covered under the eighteen seventy two mining law, and so 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:11.080 those are what we normally think of mining gold, silver leads, inc. 0:45:12.640 --> 0:45:15.680 Where you dig something on the ground. When oil and 0:45:15.719 --> 0:45:20.719 gas came into play, we evolved a little bit and said, wait, 0:45:20.800 --> 0:45:24.799 we'll lease these lands so they'll be leasable minerals, and 0:45:24.880 --> 0:45:28.120 so we just use the term locatable and leasable because 0:45:28.719 --> 0:45:33.560 two different completely processes manage those and regulatory structure. 0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:38.200 And for the forest, for the taxpayer, for the American taxpayer, 0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:45.520 they're doing the American taxpayer is doing better on a 0:45:45.800 --> 0:45:49.399 timber harvest, they're doing better on a ski lease. They're 0:45:49.440 --> 0:45:52.880 doing better on oil and gas then they're doing on 0:45:53.280 --> 0:45:54.120 mineral extraction. 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:58.279 If you're looking dressed at what direct payments go with 0:45:58.360 --> 0:46:00.880 the treasury or to the agency, Yeah, okay, for sure. 0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:04.759 All right, Uh you brought up there things that could 0:46:04.760 --> 0:46:06.000 be done better. But I feel like we're a little 0:46:06.000 --> 0:46:08.680 bit burying the lead. So I don't I'm I don't 0:46:08.680 --> 0:46:14.719 want to. Let's let's jump ahead. I'm trying to sort 0:46:14.719 --> 0:46:15.520 all this out in my head. 0:46:15.800 --> 0:46:19.720 If I were to go back and say, here's our guest, 0:46:20.120 --> 0:46:22.239 got fits William, please let's start. We're going to talk 0:46:22.280 --> 0:46:27.160 about government waste on national forests, and we're gonna learn 0:46:27.920 --> 0:46:31.759 how national forests work and how we're pissing away all 0:46:31.800 --> 0:46:32.280 this money. 0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:34.120 That's how you'd have kicked it off. 0:46:34.239 --> 0:46:34.439 Yep. 0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:37.160 Oh, I was going to come in like that's interesting. 0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:44.399 I was going to come in like Scott resigned over 0:46:44.960 --> 0:46:51.720 certain actions that are taking place coming down from Washington, 0:46:51.800 --> 0:46:56.400 d C. Decisions that are being forced, things that are 0:46:56.400 --> 0:46:59.480 being stripped away from a level of local control and 0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:04.000 and local expertise. And then he said, hey, listen, man, 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:09.360 there's plenty of ways to clean up, but this is 0:47:10.760 --> 0:47:12.719 ditching the baby with the bath water. I don't know 0:47:13.239 --> 0:47:13.840 that's nice. 0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:16.160 But let's play the Spencer New Hearts game, which one 0:47:16.239 --> 0:47:20.720 is going to get more clicks. 0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:22.920 What you approach is more appealing to you. 0:47:24.360 --> 0:47:27.080 I'm thinking about, you know, people listening to the show 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:30.399 and stuff, you know, context of what's been going on. 0:47:30.480 --> 0:47:35.600 And it's been pretty wild since the inauguration. I mean, 0:47:35.640 --> 0:47:38.399 you know, first thing has happened is we all got 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:41.359 this email that said fork in the road yep, and 0:47:42.200 --> 0:47:44.239 we all deleted it because we go to training that 0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:48.160 says when you get spam email, delete it. Because it 0:47:48.680 --> 0:47:52.319 came from a source we'd never seen before. It was bizarre. Hey, 0:47:52.400 --> 0:47:55.560 you can retire right now and get paid till October 0:47:55.600 --> 0:47:58.880 and so, but it turned out to be real. So 0:47:58.920 --> 0:48:02.080 that was what they called the deferred resignation program, which 0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:05.400 I took. Oh you did, okay, Yeah, because I was 0:48:05.440 --> 0:48:09.080 going to retire in the next year and a half. Yeah, 0:48:10.000 --> 0:48:13.960 but they offered to pay me till October. I'm good, 0:48:14.080 --> 0:48:17.680 I'm I'm eligible to retire, so it wouldn't affect my retirement. 0:48:20.000 --> 0:48:22.680 And then then it was the next thing that happened 0:48:22.760 --> 0:48:27.640 was what we called the Valentine's Day massacre, where we 0:48:28.360 --> 0:48:29.960 we just got a letter and said you need to 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:34.239 fire all these people. And that was rough. We had 0:48:34.320 --> 0:48:38.040 sixteen on our forest, but I know the forest here, 0:48:38.840 --> 0:48:42.440 the Gallot and the Custer Galloton. It was in the forties, 0:48:42.880 --> 0:48:45.719 and it was we had to give them this, We 0:48:45.760 --> 0:48:48.480 had to call them up, give them this letter that 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:51.680 said you're fire based on your performance, which was a 0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:56.120 complete lie, a complete utter lie. Their performance was fine. 0:48:56.280 --> 0:49:00.040 Some of it just had their performance rating. So that 0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:04.400 wasn't fun. And it was. And on our forests, fifteen 0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:10.120 to sixteen were field level people. They worked what we 0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:13.680 were employee called a permanent part time. They're a permanent 0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:16.480 government employee, but they only work half the year the 0:49:16.520 --> 0:49:19.920 field season. They started about now, finish after hunting season, 0:49:20.000 --> 0:49:22.560 and then they go work in the ski resorts or whatever. Yeah, 0:49:22.640 --> 0:49:27.360 at what salary. They're like TS five. So the cost 0:49:27.480 --> 0:49:30.000 to the half of the year they're paying for us 0:49:30.080 --> 0:49:34.360 is eighteen thousand bucks, so annual salary of about forty 0:49:34.640 --> 0:49:38.319 forty two thousand dollars eighteen nineteen thousand. But they get 0:49:38.320 --> 0:49:41.839 healthcare and things like that, and most of those were 0:49:41.840 --> 0:49:44.920 paid with fee money, so it wasn't taxpayer moneys. The 0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:47.520 fees we collected at room bells and campgrounds and outfit 0:49:47.640 --> 0:49:53.600 and guides and stuff, and they clean toilets, clear trails, 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:57.360 to fire patrol that didn't make any sense. 0:49:57.719 --> 0:49:58.800 That was out of fee money. 0:49:59.280 --> 0:50:02.200 Yeah, feed money. And I had to fire six people 0:50:02.480 --> 0:50:05.360 who were paid for by the counties. We have pretty 0:50:05.360 --> 0:50:07.560 well off counties, you know, Picking County and Eagle County 0:50:07.600 --> 0:50:10.399 and Summit County, and for years and years they've been 0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:14.640 actually giving us the Feds money because they wanted more 0:50:14.719 --> 0:50:17.880 people on the ground during the busy season. Because we 0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:21.160 just didn't have enough money to have patrols and people 0:50:21.200 --> 0:50:24.040 clear and trails and clean up human waste and all 0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:27.719 that stuff. So we had to fire people who were 0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:32.800 paid for by counties. That didn't save any money. 0:50:33.600 --> 0:50:36.319 That's what was How common is that in other Is 0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:39.160 there other forests that have similar systems. 0:50:38.719 --> 0:50:43.040 Where they're Yeah, lots of forest have. The other big 0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:46.440 fee we get is we get grants and most I 0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:49.120 don't know how much in Montana, but certainly Wyoming. You 0:50:49.160 --> 0:50:51.879 get grants from what we call the sticker fund, where 0:50:51.880 --> 0:50:54.880 you your ATV stickers and your snow mill stickers. Sure, 0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:58.520 the state gives us money to hire people to you know, 0:50:58.560 --> 0:51:02.440 have ATV crew and so we had to let people 0:51:02.560 --> 0:51:04.640 go that were paid for by the state. 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:08.520 Yeah, because your off road vehicle stamp, your OHV stamp 0:51:08.520 --> 0:51:10.920 that you can, like in Montana, you can buy it 0:51:10.960 --> 0:51:17.000 online with your hunting license, that is that specifically earmarked 0:51:17.040 --> 0:51:20.960 for trails and possibly campground. 0:51:20.440 --> 0:51:24.520 Too, Yeah, and trailheads. And I'm more familiar in Colorado. 0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:26.879 But it's a great source of money. I mean. And 0:51:26.920 --> 0:51:29.160 we had whole crews that were paid for by the state, 0:51:29.640 --> 0:51:32.760 some of which because they were in this probationary period 0:51:33.160 --> 0:51:35.799 we had to fire. Didn't make sense. That's when I 0:51:35.840 --> 0:51:38.640 started to think this, this is not a restructuring. 0:51:38.680 --> 0:51:40.320 Why did it need to come as that it was 0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:43.080 a performance issue. That's just like a legal Yeah. Sure, 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:45.440 they're anticipating litigation. 0:51:45.200 --> 0:51:47.400 Right, which they ended up losing. And some of these 0:51:47.400 --> 0:51:51.160 people were judges ordered in some states, in some districts 0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:55.200 that are now back to work. I'm not sure what 0:51:55.440 --> 0:51:57.600 is efficient about. We paid them the whole time that 0:51:57.600 --> 0:52:00.759 they were fired because the judge ordered back pay, and 0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:02.399 so there's nothing effishient about that. 0:52:06.000 --> 0:52:08.759 Did you feel obligated, Oh, I don't know if you 0:52:08.760 --> 0:52:11.040 can answer this, but did you feel obligated like you 0:52:11.120 --> 0:52:14.680 had to have the official like you're fired based on 0:52:14.880 --> 0:52:18.960 performance conversation? Did you feel obligated to have another conversation 0:52:19.080 --> 0:52:22.120 with them and be like, look my hand like I can't. 0:52:22.719 --> 0:52:26.279 Yeah, oh yeah, and I'm sure I would have gotten 0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:28.359 in trouble for it, but I just told them this 0:52:28.400 --> 0:52:32.239 is not true, and you know it's not true. So 0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:34.319 that was just hard, and that's when it really started 0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:37.880 to hit me like that. The next thing they offered 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:40.799 was a voluntary early retirement program, So tons of people 0:52:40.800 --> 0:52:43.600 are taking retirement, so you're losing you know, we've hired 0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:48.040 all our new employees and now people like me and 0:52:48.360 --> 0:52:51.680 many of my colleagues are failing, so we're losing the 0:52:51.800 --> 0:52:57.279 you know, institutional knowledge. And then they just offered fork 0:52:57.320 --> 0:52:59.799 in the road too because they didn't get as many 0:52:59.840 --> 0:53:06.360 as they wanted, so and then we expect reduction firings. 0:53:06.440 --> 0:53:08.560 You know, you didn't take any of that. You're gone 0:53:09.120 --> 0:53:12.480 coming in the next couple of months. And so I 0:53:12.680 --> 0:53:16.600 just h I've never ran away from a challenge. Fact 0:53:16.600 --> 0:53:19.279 that I love to fight all kinds of fights. But 0:53:19.760 --> 0:53:21.560 maybe I'm just too old, and I was like, I 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:24.480 can't be part of the dismantling of this organization. And 0:53:24.520 --> 0:53:28.279 then that's how I see it right now. It's you know, 0:53:28.400 --> 0:53:31.960 we're just there. Just doesn't seem to be a plan, 0:53:32.560 --> 0:53:35.960 like Okay, let's sit down together and figure out or 0:53:35.960 --> 0:53:38.160 give us a number, say for service we need, you 0:53:38.200 --> 0:53:41.120 need to cut twenty percent and let us figure out. Okay, 0:53:41.200 --> 0:53:44.600 let's what we don't need. It was just this random, 0:53:44.880 --> 0:53:49.000 bizarre you know, go fire these people. Okay, Yeah, that 0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:50.719 didn't make sense to me, and I didn't want to 0:53:50.760 --> 0:53:52.960 be part of that because I can't support it. I can't. 0:53:53.719 --> 0:53:57.800 But would you say your forest was like without waste, 0:53:58.920 --> 0:54:02.120 without frauds? 0:54:01.520 --> 0:54:04.440 And I tell you, in thirty five years work for 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:08.359 the government, I've seen inefficiency, saw some waste. I didn't 0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:13.320 see fraud and abuse I can't recall like an actual 0:54:13.480 --> 0:54:19.560 fraudulent activity. I've seen contractors try to defraud the government, 0:54:19.960 --> 0:54:23.160 you know, where they we paid the contractor to do 0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:27.239 something and then they didn't do it, or fudged it, 0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:30.480 or walked out on it, or defraud it in some way. 0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:33.200 But I haven't seen like people defraud it. Does it 0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:36.719 go on? I think in the context of natural resources, 0:54:37.080 --> 0:54:40.160 the fix, the fixes I would have was hoping for, 0:54:41.080 --> 0:54:44.200 was one. And I don't know if I bettioned my 0:54:44.280 --> 0:54:48.920 colleagues in the parksers and BLM with similar we've gotten. 0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:51.560 We got really top heavy as far as too many 0:54:51.600 --> 0:54:55.359 people in Washington and regional office at the expense of 0:54:56.600 --> 0:54:59.080 what we're supposed to be doing that's on the ground, 0:54:59.160 --> 0:55:02.320 doing the groundwork. That's what the public wants. They want clear, 0:55:02.680 --> 0:55:05.480 trails clear and they want fuels reduced, and they want 0:55:05.480 --> 0:55:07.600 the Kyle's taken care of. They want garbage picked up, 0:55:07.640 --> 0:55:11.600 and we were I would have made that adjustment. And 0:55:11.800 --> 0:55:15.319 you know, the other thing I think we've really got 0:55:15.360 --> 0:55:17.080 to come to grips with, and you guys talk a 0:55:17.120 --> 0:55:22.040 lot about this stuff, is the redundancy and regulations like 0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:26.480 Endangered Species Act or you know, the Archaeological Projection Act 0:55:26.480 --> 0:55:29.160 A Section one oh six. So you know, when we 0:55:29.200 --> 0:55:32.560 do a project we have really good biologists who work 0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:36.040 on that piece of ground and then and maybe there's 0:55:36.080 --> 0:55:39.560 a chrissy barrel wolf for whatever the listed species is, 0:55:39.920 --> 0:55:42.920 and they design mitigation. You know, we're going to do 0:55:42.960 --> 0:55:45.280 this fuels project or cut the streets. But the biologist 0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:48.879 comes in. But the way the process works in Dager 0:55:48.960 --> 0:55:53.400 Species Act, then we send that biological evaluation to a 0:55:53.400 --> 0:55:57.400 biologist in an office in Montana would be in Helena, 0:55:58.320 --> 0:56:01.120 who has never seen that piece of ground ever, and 0:56:01.160 --> 0:56:05.040 then they make an evaluation of what we should be doing. 0:56:05.160 --> 0:56:09.839 So you have two agencies making redundancy. I think we've 0:56:09.880 --> 0:56:14.120 got to really step back on that. It's the people 0:56:14.160 --> 0:56:16.160 on the ground. Know we have biologists that know how 0:56:16.200 --> 0:56:20.200 to protect these species. Maybe there can be just a concurrence. 0:56:20.280 --> 0:56:24.759 But with the Fish mode Ie Service, you know, when 0:56:24.760 --> 0:56:27.120 we have archaeological protection, we have to go through what's 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:31.560 called Section one oh six consultation. So we have an archaeologist, 0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:36.640 they find a site or some resource. Then they have 0:56:36.680 --> 0:56:39.000 to write up a big fat report, send it to 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:42.960 the State Shipo Office, State Historic Preservation Office, and they 0:56:43.040 --> 0:56:44.920 either agree or don't agree with us. And if we 0:56:45.120 --> 0:56:49.480 don't agree, then there's a group of national archaeologists who 0:56:49.520 --> 0:56:53.000 can seems like a lot of archaeologists looking at the 0:56:53.000 --> 0:56:55.000 same piece of ground and only one of them is 0:56:55.040 --> 0:56:58.360 looking at the ground. The other people don't see that 0:56:58.360 --> 0:57:01.480 they're in an office somewhere. And I've always thought that. 0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:04.480 And when I worked in Wyoming, we had such great 0:57:04.719 --> 0:57:07.359 bare biologists and working with the state, and then we'd 0:57:07.400 --> 0:57:12.040 send our you know, biological evaguations to Cheyenne where they 0:57:12.040 --> 0:57:14.640 had never been on that piece of ground. Yeah, I 0:57:14.640 --> 0:57:17.760 think we got to look at things like that, and 0:57:18.000 --> 0:57:22.280 just the redundancy in government, I think is something that 0:57:22.320 --> 0:57:28.800 I think needs to change. Governments were set up to 0:57:28.880 --> 0:57:31.440 be a little inefficient and slow, and I think that's 0:57:31.920 --> 0:57:36.240 by design to protect the public, to protect the taxpayers money. 0:57:36.920 --> 0:57:40.080 But I think there's a lot we can do, and 0:57:41.480 --> 0:57:45.160 I just don't think getting rid of the person that 0:57:45.240 --> 0:57:48.120 makes eighteen thousand dollars a year that clears trails is 0:57:48.120 --> 0:57:49.040 going to fix any of that. 0:57:49.280 --> 0:57:53.040 Yeah. When I've looked at the when I've looked at 0:57:53.040 --> 0:57:55.760 the costs that have come to the federal land management agencies, 0:57:56.640 --> 0:57:58.840 and I'm singling them out because it's of interest to 0:57:58.880 --> 0:58:03.040 me and because I know some stuff about it. I've wondered, 0:58:04.320 --> 0:58:10.640 allowed why there wasn't a why there wasn't an approach 0:58:11.000 --> 0:58:15.600 like this, like a layout that you would get your 0:58:16.320 --> 0:58:20.400 cabinet in place, you'd get your administrators in place, and 0:58:21.080 --> 0:58:24.760 you would come to them and say, you have ninety days, 0:58:25.320 --> 0:58:26.960 you have one hundred and twenty days. It seems always 0:58:26.960 --> 0:58:30.080 works like that, right, ninety that's like the magic numbers. 0:58:30.120 --> 0:58:32.480 You have ninety days, you have one hundred and twenty days. 0:58:32.840 --> 0:58:35.440 It's like doing twelve reps and your exercise. Just the 0:58:35.520 --> 0:58:39.400 number of people, why not seven to come to me 0:58:39.480 --> 0:58:44.120 and present to me, how are you going to cut 0:58:44.120 --> 0:58:48.720 your budget by thirty percent? And then you have the 0:58:49.680 --> 0:58:59.920 professionals in these spaces propose make a proposal in your mind, 0:59:00.160 --> 0:59:04.040 like why was that not the approach to use? Look, 0:59:04.080 --> 0:59:05.280 if you had to get in the head of it, 0:59:05.320 --> 0:59:08.720 like why why not use that approach which seems like 0:59:08.720 --> 0:59:12.960 like and how like and how in business that would 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:14.080 be a thing that would happen. 0:59:15.800 --> 0:59:19.400 I don't know. I think there was just a more 0:59:19.520 --> 0:59:22.720 urgency than I've ever seen. Trying to think how many 0:59:22.840 --> 0:59:26.160 administrations I've been through. So the first change I was 0:59:26.200 --> 0:59:29.080 through was when Clinton got an office. So someone add 0:59:29.200 --> 0:59:32.920 up all those presidents since I've been working. But the 0:59:33.560 --> 0:59:35.400 urgency in this one just seemed we got to do 0:59:35.440 --> 0:59:38.160 it now. And that's why, you know, we just sent 0:59:38.240 --> 0:59:40.680 out and fired people and things like that, as opposed 0:59:40.720 --> 0:59:43.160 to you need to give me a twenty five percent cut. 0:59:43.200 --> 0:59:43.560 I don't know. 0:59:43.600 --> 0:59:46.560 I don't care how you do it, or you could say, 0:59:46.640 --> 0:59:49.720 you know, I still want to emphasize these things, but 0:59:50.120 --> 0:59:52.240 you got to cut twenty five percent. I don't know. 0:59:52.640 --> 0:59:55.680 That would have seemed to make more sense. And then 0:59:55.760 --> 1:00:03.600 why why let people like myself or others like there 1:00:03.680 --> 1:00:06.400 was no rhyme or reason to who we let take 1:00:06.520 --> 1:00:12.960 this early resignation program deferred resignation program some people we want, 1:00:13.440 --> 1:00:16.080 we shouldn't offered it to them. They're going to I mean, 1:00:16.120 --> 1:00:18.920 they're going to replace me. So what what good did 1:00:18.920 --> 1:00:21.520 it do to pay me to do nothing for six months? 1:00:21.880 --> 1:00:24.480 I don't understand that. I don't know. They could have 1:00:24.560 --> 1:00:28.160 just said, no, you're not eligible for this. I don't know. 1:00:28.360 --> 1:00:35.240 I you know, there's a it's it's big change, you know, 1:00:35.400 --> 1:00:40.880 I think Cali, I told you this that I don't 1:00:40.880 --> 1:00:43.280 know how beneficial it is in today's well, but the 1:00:43.320 --> 1:00:46.760 four service is about the only agency. I don't know, 1:00:46.760 --> 1:00:48.360 maybe in all of them, but certainly in all the 1:00:48.400 --> 1:00:53.720 agencies we all talk about fishing, moll A, servers, Park Service, BLM. 1:00:53.760 --> 1:00:57.120 That we've our head, our chief has always been a 1:00:57.200 --> 1:01:02.360 career person. We've never had a political point and tell now, first, 1:01:03.080 --> 1:01:05.560 Tom Schultz is the new chief from my herd's a 1:01:05.560 --> 1:01:08.640 good guy. But that's the first time in our history 1:01:08.680 --> 1:01:14.040 we've ever had a non you know, career employee become chief. 1:01:14.840 --> 1:01:16.600 So it changes on the way, which is fine. I 1:01:16.640 --> 1:01:19.120 don't know how what's the difference anymore in today's world, 1:01:19.200 --> 1:01:25.040 But anyway, I don't know what's you know, the future holds. 1:01:25.520 --> 1:01:32.479 I'm worried about a couple of things, and the one 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:35.400 is do we dismantle the agency the point where we've 1:01:35.440 --> 1:01:38.560 become ineffective, where they actually can prove you guys can't 1:01:38.560 --> 1:01:42.280 do shit. Okay, we're at it that way. I mean, 1:01:42.320 --> 1:01:45.200 based on what I'm seeing. By that time I left, 1:01:45.240 --> 1:01:50.000 we had lost twenty seven people between firings and people 1:01:50.080 --> 1:01:53.960 just saying I'm going somewhere else. Twenty some people in 1:01:54.080 --> 1:01:59.800 thirty days, fifty people in a calendar year. Who's going 1:01:59.880 --> 1:02:01.920 to be left do the work? And then when people 1:02:01.920 --> 1:02:04.000 get pissed and say, see the Force servers can't do it, 1:02:04.080 --> 1:02:05.840 maybe we ought to let the States handle that. 1:02:06.200 --> 1:02:07.000 Can I interject? 1:02:07.080 --> 1:02:11.040 It seems like that's always been a You've probably seen 1:02:11.040 --> 1:02:13.880 this col Brody to work. Some of the outfitters that 1:02:13.920 --> 1:02:17.440 we've worked with over the years, some have good relationships 1:02:17.480 --> 1:02:20.919 with the Forest Service, and I've often heard outfitters refer 1:02:21.040 --> 1:02:24.880 to you as the forest disservice, right. And then now 1:02:24.920 --> 1:02:27.600 on the Instagram when you can see sort of some 1:02:27.600 --> 1:02:30.680 people sort of the ones that are on board with 1:02:30.720 --> 1:02:34.320 what's going on now, they're like, listen, I've been cutting 1:02:34.360 --> 1:02:38.000 this trail out myself way before any Forest Service trail 1:02:38.080 --> 1:02:41.400 crew comes in here and does this. We haven't relied 1:02:41.440 --> 1:02:44.120 on them anyways, because we've been in here doing it 1:02:44.160 --> 1:02:46.280 because this is our business. 1:02:45.960 --> 1:02:47.480 Right right. 1:02:47.560 --> 1:02:51.400 That's like a common thing that's always been a theme, 1:02:51.680 --> 1:02:52.400 right where. 1:02:52.240 --> 1:02:55.160 Absolutely, and it's also been true. I mean when I 1:02:55.240 --> 1:02:59.880 was guiding in Wyoming, I Force has never cut out 1:02:59.880 --> 1:03:02.960 the trail there were system trails. No, we don't cut 1:03:03.000 --> 1:03:05.040 out trails that are not system trails. They're just the 1:03:05.040 --> 1:03:07.200 outfitters trails when they're not supposed to be cutting them 1:03:07.160 --> 1:03:07.720 out or whatever. 1:03:07.840 --> 1:03:09.680 But one time asked about that. I was trying to 1:03:09.680 --> 1:03:11.920 see what it requires to make your own trail with 1:03:11.960 --> 1:03:13.440 a chainsaw, and I was dissuaded. 1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:18.280 Bad idea it was going to trail. 1:03:18.480 --> 1:03:20.320 One of the first meetings I went to here in 1:03:20.360 --> 1:03:24.120 Bozeman when I first moved to town, I listened to 1:03:24.400 --> 1:03:28.760 a fellow who happens to be in the conservation world. 1:03:29.280 --> 1:03:33.800 Just brate the Forest Service for not maintaining the illegally 1:03:33.840 --> 1:03:35.120 built mountain bike trails. 1:03:35.200 --> 1:03:39.200 Yeah, mountain bikers over the last decade are the worst. 1:03:39.640 --> 1:03:42.480 The bastards will build a trail anywhere, and that they 1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:46.600 have this theory. It's like, well, we have three thousand miles. Yeah, 1:03:46.640 --> 1:03:52.000 but I've been on those mountain bikers oh yeah, absolute across. 1:03:51.720 --> 1:03:56.600 Hard working suckers man trails. 1:03:55.720 --> 1:03:59.920 Yeah yeah, I mean, oh yeah, I can tell you 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:02.280 I've been up drainages. We're like, yeah, like I was 1:04:02.320 --> 1:04:04.800 here a month ago and there was no side and 1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:07.800 now there's it's not like it's a trail. There's jumps 1:04:07.800 --> 1:04:10.480 in ramps and banks and yeah, and. 1:04:10.560 --> 1:04:13.919 Sometimes in wilderness there is oh yeah. 1:04:14.080 --> 1:04:16.200 Supposed to add to my list of people I don't like, 1:04:16.320 --> 1:04:18.560 but it's a good example of some of the conflicts 1:04:18.560 --> 1:04:21.160 Today's Well, like, literally, I've had these mom mikes say 1:04:21.200 --> 1:04:24.400 to me, well we've already you know, people have already 1:04:24.400 --> 1:04:25.360 done all those trails. 1:04:25.840 --> 1:04:29.000 Well that's an unsustainable mom because sooner or later you 1:04:29.040 --> 1:04:30.920 will use them all and we'll just keep building more. 1:04:30.960 --> 1:04:33.560 And that's good. I like, I like to engage with 1:04:33.600 --> 1:04:36.760 them on the logic of it. Right, Well, you're using it, 1:04:36.760 --> 1:04:38.920 makes it that it's not good anymore, so then you 1:04:38.960 --> 1:04:40.840 need to make a new one. That would end with 1:04:41.200 --> 1:04:42.640 all things being. 1:04:42.560 --> 1:04:43.400 A mountain bike trail. 1:04:43.520 --> 1:04:46.320 So you should just sell your bike now because you're 1:04:46.360 --> 1:04:47.280 headed to the same place. 1:04:47.440 --> 1:04:51.160 Yeah, back to your question, I think there's some truth 1:04:51.200 --> 1:04:55.200 to it, and and uh I got it. 1:04:56.080 --> 1:04:57.840 I can't sit idly by. This has been the thing 1:04:57.840 --> 1:05:00.560 I've been thinking about for a long time. Well, you 1:05:00.560 --> 1:05:02.960 go ahead, then I'll go tell them the truth in it. 1:05:05.080 --> 1:05:05.280 Uh h. 1:05:06.200 --> 1:05:08.919 What for service plans are kind of co op right, 1:05:09.000 --> 1:05:13.760 Like you there's always going to be a user, even 1:05:13.760 --> 1:05:16.600 in a user pay system, right Like, if you're an outfitter, 1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:18.920 you're you're operating under a permit that you pay for. 1:05:19.720 --> 1:05:22.480 You're not gonna sit there and wait for the Forest 1:05:22.520 --> 1:05:26.520 Service to clear those trails, you gotta do, get things prepped. 1:05:26.560 --> 1:05:27.800 You're gonna You're gonna do it. 1:05:27.840 --> 1:05:29.680 And if you're on of those outfitters are using the 1:05:29.680 --> 1:05:31.720 trails that not a lot of people use. So you 1:05:31.760 --> 1:05:35.120 take your what little money you have or the staff 1:05:35.120 --> 1:05:37.400 you have, and okay, I got to send mine to 1:05:37.480 --> 1:05:40.560 the folks, you know, the places around Eagle and Aspen, 1:05:40.640 --> 1:05:43.440 because there's eight thousand people a day on those trails 1:05:43.960 --> 1:05:46.880 and only seven outfitters a week on the other ones. 1:05:46.920 --> 1:05:48.920 And so I could see they're frustration, especially when you 1:05:48.960 --> 1:05:51.720 have flowdowns and stuff. And I think we were we 1:05:51.800 --> 1:05:53.880 got I said a little bit. We we kind of 1:05:53.880 --> 1:05:56.280 lost our way a little bit too much overhead and 1:05:56.720 --> 1:05:59.400 not really focusing on what we really needed. And man 1:05:59.440 --> 1:06:01.160 if I was in charge of reforming, I would have 1:06:01.240 --> 1:06:02.960 flipped everything upside down and said we were going to 1:06:03.040 --> 1:06:06.760 fund the ground first and then fund what's left. You know, 1:06:06.760 --> 1:06:09.840 we're going to fund the overhead last. 1:06:09.960 --> 1:06:14.520 But like I've been places like where we us Turkey Hunt, 1:06:14.960 --> 1:06:17.120 you know, with your buddy in Nebraska, where they like 1:06:17.200 --> 1:06:21.200 that National Forest is like it's like a symbol, right, 1:06:21.240 --> 1:06:25.760 there's like this anti federal government sentiment and that land 1:06:25.880 --> 1:06:27.520 is just like they look at it and they just 1:06:28.000 --> 1:06:30.680 they get mad because they can't do whatever they want 1:06:30.720 --> 1:06:34.439 on it. Right, So there's an aspect of that involved too, 1:06:34.520 --> 1:06:36.120 And so I don't think that's the case. 1:06:35.920 --> 1:06:36.600 With the White Rooms. 1:06:37.560 --> 1:06:40.440 But they love the places like there's places you know, 1:06:40.520 --> 1:06:45.480 Idaho and parts of Montana in Utah. 1:06:45.640 --> 1:06:49.360 But yeah, we're public land like stands in the way 1:06:49.360 --> 1:06:50.640 of your ambitions. 1:06:50.200 --> 1:06:52.640 Yeah, or whatever it might be. And it stands for 1:06:52.800 --> 1:06:54.280 the federal government, which we don't like. 1:06:54.520 --> 1:06:57.640 I was also I get seen as an apologist sometimes. 1:06:57.680 --> 1:07:02.280 But you know, it's like nature does not follow your 1:07:02.560 --> 1:07:06.320 your multi use plan either. So if you have budget 1:07:06.400 --> 1:07:11.480 for one thousand miles of trail clearing and you're in 1:07:11.920 --> 1:07:16.520 you know, that burned over pecker Pole zone and you 1:07:16.520 --> 1:07:19.560 have a windy summer, you can legitimately clear a thousand 1:07:19.640 --> 1:07:22.400 miles of the same trail, yeah, and never get to 1:07:22.440 --> 1:07:25.840 the other trails because it's just like and I'd like, 1:07:26.640 --> 1:07:30.400 we have a lot of trails historically, you know, where 1:07:30.440 --> 1:07:34.520 we'd leave the first couple of hundred yards down and 1:07:34.640 --> 1:07:37.320 nasty and stuff, and then we'd clear the rest of it. Right, 1:07:37.560 --> 1:07:39.400 we'd have our own kind of personal trail for the 1:07:39.400 --> 1:07:41.720 rest what I want to make and. 1:07:41.960 --> 1:07:44.960 One you'd never know was there, but man, you had 1:07:45.000 --> 1:07:46.880 to go through hell. And also, like what you're on 1:07:46.920 --> 1:07:47.800 the trail, You could. 1:07:47.680 --> 1:07:51.480 Go in there and do like a full seventy two 1:07:51.480 --> 1:07:55.400 hours of busting your ass, cutting, cutting it, cutting trail, 1:07:55.480 --> 1:07:58.240 and even make a nice little stack of firewood for 1:07:58.240 --> 1:08:01.640 yourself when you come in there later and the next 1:08:01.640 --> 1:08:03.280 weekend you go in there and you're. 1:08:03.120 --> 1:08:05.640 Like, oh, trail's gone. 1:08:05.760 --> 1:08:09.440 Yeah, trail's gone, as if nobody had ever been in here. 1:08:09.560 --> 1:08:12.200 Yeah. Yeah, I want to speak the thing that you 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:15.440 alluded to. And do you remember how earlier were talking 1:08:15.440 --> 1:08:20.080 about mountain lions. Yeah, And I'm like, my end goal 1:08:20.960 --> 1:08:24.280 is to restore mountain lion hunting in places where it's 1:08:24.320 --> 1:08:28.240 been lost in the service of myself as a hunter hunters. 1:08:29.280 --> 1:08:32.120 To get to that end goal, I wind up feeling 1:08:33.800 --> 1:08:36.799 guilty if I were to play the card that mountain 1:08:36.840 --> 1:08:44.160 lions are these terrible, dangerous creatures, like the ends in 1:08:44.200 --> 1:08:48.080 that case, like the end wouldn't justify the means, right. 1:08:48.320 --> 1:08:51.080 My end goal is that I want lion hunting, but 1:08:51.120 --> 1:08:55.679 I can't get there through a disingenuous path of sowing 1:08:55.760 --> 1:08:58.479 fear of mountain lions right, which is a tempting way 1:08:58.520 --> 1:09:02.080 to go. It's effective. Yeah, the minute you tell anybody 1:09:02.120 --> 1:09:04.880 this mountains are gonna kill your kids, we don't hunt them. 1:09:06.120 --> 1:09:06.880 Predator control. 1:09:06.960 --> 1:09:08.519 It's a way to get where you want to get. 1:09:08.680 --> 1:09:08.920 Yep. 1:09:09.200 --> 1:09:14.280 Now, I'm a public lands user, I'm a public lands defender, 1:09:14.360 --> 1:09:19.000 but there's a just out of moral honesty. I think 1:09:19.040 --> 1:09:22.479 that it's a little conspiratorial. Maybe you disagree. I think 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:30.480 it's conspiratorial to suggest that lawmakers are saying the pathway 1:09:31.920 --> 1:09:34.439 to being able to sell off all the public lands 1:09:35.400 --> 1:09:41.120 is to emasculate land management agencies to the point where 1:09:41.120 --> 1:09:44.240 they do a terrible job, at which point we'll be 1:09:44.240 --> 1:09:46.840 able to go to the public and say, look what 1:09:47.000 --> 1:09:49.519 a mess, let's sell it all right, because it's like 1:09:49.560 --> 1:09:51.600 a little it feels out there to me. 1:09:51.920 --> 1:09:56.479 Well, it also to acquire a lot of connections and 1:09:56.560 --> 1:09:59.559 a lot of people involved with the same conspiracy. So 1:10:00.439 --> 1:10:02.960 when I say I'm worried about the dismantling, I'm worried 1:10:03.000 --> 1:10:06.600 about the disman Like, what if we the basic maintenance 1:10:06.640 --> 1:10:09.679 of them, the basic stewardship of the land, being able 1:10:09.720 --> 1:10:12.920 to respond to the public. I think that's what I 1:10:12.920 --> 1:10:16.960 don't think we're there's I don't think people are smart 1:10:17.040 --> 1:10:20.040 enough to pull that off. I really don't in any 1:10:20.040 --> 1:10:23.599 part of government to even Congress to like, Okay, we've 1:10:23.600 --> 1:10:24.880 got that, because that would take time. 1:10:25.000 --> 1:10:27.160 Yeah, it's like it's like a fifty year plan. 1:10:27.360 --> 1:10:32.880 Right. However, I based on what I'm seeing and talking 1:10:32.920 --> 1:10:35.439 to people at the highest levels who are working with 1:10:35.520 --> 1:10:40.920 these people in Washington, there is a general disregard for 1:10:43.479 --> 1:10:48.680 maintaining the management and stewardship of public lands. It's like, 1:10:48.920 --> 1:10:52.679 they're fine, so they're also producing. Let's produce more timber 1:10:52.760 --> 1:10:55.479 and mining and stuff and partake to the cause. But 1:10:55.680 --> 1:10:57.000 the rest of that stuff, we don't have to worry 1:10:57.000 --> 1:10:57.400 about it. 1:10:57.439 --> 1:11:01.680 The end result of the but and the inefficiencies that 1:11:01.760 --> 1:11:07.519 would result from that could also ultimately result and let's 1:11:07.560 --> 1:11:08.400 just get rid of it. 1:11:09.439 --> 1:11:12.080 Yeah, I think that. I I think that's a long 1:11:12.160 --> 1:11:15.280 stretch that would. I hear that a lot. Oh yeah, 1:11:15.320 --> 1:11:16.200 we do hear it a lot. 1:11:16.479 --> 1:11:18.639 And you hear the mountain lions are going to kill 1:11:18.640 --> 1:11:18.920 all your. 1:11:18.880 --> 1:11:24.640 Kids kids exactly. Boy, don't you guys think people on 1:11:24.720 --> 1:11:27.439 both sides I would lose their mind if we really 1:11:27.479 --> 1:11:31.559 start to sell off public lands or even transfer them 1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:32.360 to the state. 1:11:32.439 --> 1:11:38.680 That has been in twenty fifteen, it sure looked like that, 1:11:40.160 --> 1:11:44.280 but your people lost their minds in twenty fifteen. Yeah, 1:11:45.760 --> 1:11:49.000 I don't know if there's been a fundamental shift, because 1:11:49.040 --> 1:11:53.240 there's been a I think it's a little harder right 1:11:53.280 --> 1:11:58.920 now to it's a little harder right now to pick 1:11:58.960 --> 1:12:04.960 and choose policy, and there's more pressure to get aligned 1:12:05.320 --> 1:12:12.720 on a wholesale across the board fashion within ideology, and 1:12:12.760 --> 1:12:15.559 it's harder to it's harder to go like, yeah, oh 1:12:15.560 --> 1:12:19.519 that's great, but this thing no way right. It's kind 1:12:19.560 --> 1:12:24.519 of like that you need to there's a temptation to 1:12:25.439 --> 1:12:33.120 endorse an entire initiative for fear of cracking the coalition. 1:12:33.560 --> 1:12:36.240 But where I say that, and I was starting, I 1:12:36.280 --> 1:12:40.040 was feeling that. But in looking at it's been interesting 1:12:40.120 --> 1:12:43.840 to look at conversations around tariffs. Now, when you get 1:12:43.840 --> 1:12:48.519 into people's money, you find there's a lot of people 1:12:48.600 --> 1:12:51.320 going like no, no, no, didn't like this, don't like this. 1:12:51.680 --> 1:12:54.320 Now what I signed up for. I didn't sign up 1:12:54.360 --> 1:12:57.960 for losing millions of dollars overnight. So there you see 1:12:58.000 --> 1:13:03.760 people that are aligned with an ideology saying like, hey, man, 1:13:03.800 --> 1:13:07.160 I'm into all this, but this part not into So 1:13:07.200 --> 1:13:12.760 you're seeing that around the tariff discussion where allies or 1:13:12.880 --> 1:13:17.599 are starting to pick apart what they don't like. So 1:13:17.840 --> 1:13:22.559 we'll see cal and I messaged about this over the 1:13:22.560 --> 1:13:31.479 weekend where Senator Heinrich, who's a Democrat from New Mexico, 1:13:31.600 --> 1:13:42.479 Avid Hunter, he put forward a piece of legislation saying, hey, 1:13:42.560 --> 1:13:47.800 let's leave selling public lands, selling federal public lands out 1:13:47.800 --> 1:13:52.560 of the budget reconciliation process. It didn't pass. What I 1:13:52.560 --> 1:13:55.880 thought was really interesting is our state. We have two 1:13:55.920 --> 1:14:02.840 Republican senators, Senator Danes and Senator She supported it all. 1:14:02.720 --> 1:14:09.240 That Zinki too, right, Yeah, he verbally support it. 1:14:09.320 --> 1:14:16.679 Yeah. So in this state, Okay, in Montana, you can't win. 1:14:17.680 --> 1:14:19.639 You could lose elections over public land. 1:14:19.840 --> 1:14:23.160 You have to you cannot win, you have to you 1:14:23.479 --> 1:14:26.200 have to be pro public land. Yeah, in this state. 1:14:28.280 --> 1:14:32.679 And they were outliers in their party, right. Yeah, this 1:14:32.680 --> 1:14:39.120 this thing that Hunter did, didn't didn't paden that night. 1:14:40.120 --> 1:14:47.360 Yeah, one one Democrat did not vote, and yeah she 1:14:47.680 --> 1:14:51.240 and and Danes were the only Republicans to so for it. 1:14:54.280 --> 1:14:57.000 In that case, when you say, like people, Democrats, Republicans whatever, 1:14:57.000 --> 1:15:02.400 would lose their minds. I don't know, Like I'm not 1:15:02.439 --> 1:15:04.640 like a DC insider. I don't know all the conversations 1:15:04.640 --> 1:15:06.880 that went in, but I think that it was clear 1:15:07.040 --> 1:15:10.040 that like Montanas would lose their minds. But I don't. 1:15:10.560 --> 1:15:11.679 Montana's a small state. 1:15:12.160 --> 1:15:14.720 But even so, I've been digging into like land. 1:15:14.600 --> 1:15:16.240 Use, small small population. 1:15:16.320 --> 1:15:25.719 Sorry Nevada. You know, Nevada successfully lobbied for largeer land 1:15:25.760 --> 1:15:30.439 sales on on the BLM side for affordable housing. Right 1:15:31.160 --> 1:15:34.200 so far they've sold eighteen thousand acres in the name 1:15:34.240 --> 1:15:39.120 of affordable housing, eighteen eighteen thousand acres of BLM ground 1:15:39.160 --> 1:15:40.599 since nineteen ninety six. 1:15:40.720 --> 1:15:43.840 I think, how affordable is the housing. 1:15:45.040 --> 1:15:45.759 Nobody else? 1:15:46.400 --> 1:15:50.120 But I laugh when I think about the affordable housing aspect. 1:15:50.400 --> 1:15:54.600 It's really there isn't any They didn't Yeah, unfortunately, I 1:15:54.600 --> 1:15:56.679 mean there's there's people on both sides of the aisle 1:15:56.720 --> 1:15:58.920 who are like, oh, yeah, we do need affordable housing. 1:15:58.960 --> 1:16:00.240 If this is the way we can do it, we 1:16:00.240 --> 1:16:04.040 can do it. But the math provided by Bloomberg Law 1:16:04.280 --> 1:16:07.720 yesterday was thirty acres out of that eighteen thousand have 1:16:07.840 --> 1:16:13.880 actually gone towards affordable housing, and thirty acres out of eighteen. 1:16:13.640 --> 1:16:16.320 Thousand tiny houses, Like what are you talking about? 1:16:16.600 --> 1:16:17.519 Well, and that's the thing. 1:16:17.439 --> 1:16:19.760 That the food restricted houses and things like that. 1:16:20.479 --> 1:16:24.320 And you know, a huge pushback, right is you have 1:16:24.680 --> 1:16:30.240 landowners who strategically purchased on the edge of BLM being like, well, 1:16:30.280 --> 1:16:33.120 that stuff's always going to be open. So my property 1:16:33.200 --> 1:16:37.040 value is based off of access to Bureau of Land 1:16:37.080 --> 1:16:40.479 Management and the fact that, like, my view is never 1:16:40.520 --> 1:16:44.880 going to be blocked by another house or housing development. Right. 1:16:44.960 --> 1:16:49.479 So our state government, who a lot of people argue 1:16:49.479 --> 1:16:51.720 on behalf of is like, well, the states can do 1:16:51.800 --> 1:16:55.680 it better. Well, right now, the states aren't doing anything. 1:16:55.880 --> 1:16:56.960 With state trust lands. 1:16:57.880 --> 1:17:03.719 Well, they're not mandate any sort of restrictions on second 1:17:04.080 --> 1:17:09.120 or third homes, deed restricted housing. They're not doing the work, 1:17:09.240 --> 1:17:14.320 but they're asking for more land. Interesting, and this is 1:17:14.360 --> 1:17:18.680 an extremely unpopular opinion, especially for years. Yeah, who goes 1:17:18.760 --> 1:17:20.840 up to Helena and talks to these folks. They don't 1:17:20.840 --> 1:17:24.920 want to hear it. They just want more land. So 1:17:25.320 --> 1:17:28.200 I think there's a giant disconnect between the federal government 1:17:28.439 --> 1:17:30.680 and the people on the ground because the Feds are like, 1:17:30.720 --> 1:17:34.000 oh yeah, easy button, sell four hundred thousand acres of 1:17:34.040 --> 1:17:38.479 BLM ground. Which is under flip my right now. Right 1:17:39.439 --> 1:17:41.600 it's already gone through the nep of process and flip my. 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:44.519 They've been earmarked for a long time four hundred thousand 1:17:44.600 --> 1:17:49.120 acres of BLM ground. But there's also a lot of 1:17:49.120 --> 1:17:52.760 conversations around an additional five hundred thousand acres of US 1:17:52.760 --> 1:17:56.599 Forest Service ground, which hasn't been done before, and that's 1:17:56.600 --> 1:18:01.720 going to take some serious effort. Again, you have all 1:18:01.760 --> 1:18:06.280 these people who are like, oh, yeah, that makes sense, 1:18:07.000 --> 1:18:11.479 public land sales on behalf of this to address affordable housing, 1:18:12.040 --> 1:18:16.000 but nobody's actually doing the work to address affordable housing. 1:18:17.400 --> 1:18:19.400 They're just saying if we give this over, people are 1:18:19.439 --> 1:18:23.519 gonna be like, oh, see, the government's doing something about this, 1:18:24.640 --> 1:18:26.880 but it's not. There's no follow through. 1:18:26.880 --> 1:18:31.439 No and living in places that you guys are familiar 1:18:31.520 --> 1:18:35.400 with where there's very little affordable housing. It's the biggest issue. 1:18:35.960 --> 1:18:37.720 I've spent more time in the last six years of 1:18:37.720 --> 1:18:40.320 my career dealing with housing and affordable housing. We actually 1:18:40.320 --> 1:18:42.880 have a program. We got the legislation passed and we're 1:18:42.920 --> 1:18:45.040 the first one in the country, the White River. I 1:18:45.080 --> 1:18:49.760 gotta stop saying we they and it was it was 1:18:49.800 --> 1:18:52.720 in the twenty sixteen farm bell. President Trump actually signed it. 1:18:53.960 --> 1:18:59.720 Where we have what's called administrative sites where we used 1:18:59.720 --> 1:19:03.160 to have a district office or a boneyard or something. 1:19:03.160 --> 1:19:05.040 We'm all over the place where we have you know, 1:19:05.320 --> 1:19:09.519 crappy housing on them. Now that this legislation allows us 1:19:09.560 --> 1:19:14.000 to lease this property to we got to give a 1:19:14.200 --> 1:19:17.479 right of first refusal to a community, a county, a 1:19:17.520 --> 1:19:22.519 local government, and in exchange for the lease, they will 1:19:22.560 --> 1:19:25.679 build us employee housing and then they get to build 1:19:25.680 --> 1:19:29.200 other all affordable housing. So we have a project in Dylan, 1:19:30.040 --> 1:19:34.080 Colorado where we have eleven acres beautiful overlooking the thing 1:19:34.120 --> 1:19:36.720 we used to have like six crappy falling apart for 1:19:36.960 --> 1:19:40.720 service houses on it's now been bulldoz. We're working with 1:19:40.880 --> 1:19:44.800 the Summit County government where they're going to lease it 1:19:45.160 --> 1:19:46.640 and they're going to bild one hundred and twenty one 1:19:46.680 --> 1:19:51.160 million dollars worth of affordable housing deed restricted you know 1:19:51.400 --> 1:19:56.519 application actual affordable housing. And instead of paying the government 1:19:56.600 --> 1:19:59.960 for the leasing the land, they're paying us in kind 1:20:00.160 --> 1:20:03.400 by building us a new you know, fire shop and 1:20:03.600 --> 1:20:08.120 giving us house and housing. That's cool program, but that's a. 1:20:08.080 --> 1:20:10.000 Lot of work that's not on the side of a 1:20:10.040 --> 1:20:14.280 mountain somewhere right Like it's like I'm assuming, yeah in. 1:20:14.479 --> 1:20:17.880 Town, Yeah, it's it's next to it a nice site. 1:20:17.920 --> 1:20:20.720 You're not going to build some big affordable housing. 1:20:21.080 --> 1:20:24.519 All over the country. We have those administrative sites that 1:20:24.560 --> 1:20:28.240 are under Utilie. I think you know. I started my career. 1:20:28.320 --> 1:20:31.120 My first permanent job was in Jackson Hall, where ninety 1:20:31.120 --> 1:20:34.720 eight percent of the county is federal land. And I 1:20:34.720 --> 1:20:36.880 don't know how the federal government can't play a role. 1:20:36.960 --> 1:20:40.479 I think we should, you know, but man, every acre 1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:41.200 is sacred there. 1:20:41.720 --> 1:20:44.840 Well, I'll tell you when I on this issue. One 1:20:44.840 --> 1:20:50.080 of the areas where I felt like that I had 1:20:50.080 --> 1:20:54.840 a knowledge gap would be I would want to what 1:20:54.880 --> 1:20:58.160 I'm asking is I want to have the authority to say. 1:20:58.160 --> 1:21:01.559 I want to be the final say, and I'll visit 1:21:03.360 --> 1:21:08.960 every patch the ground and I'll say would this lead 1:21:09.080 --> 1:21:11.840 my My lit miss will be this, would this lead 1:21:11.880 --> 1:21:15.639 to a loss of wildlife habitat? If it's yes, then 1:21:15.680 --> 1:21:20.360 it's no. If it's no, then it's yes. The case 1:21:20.400 --> 1:21:23.880 you're bringing up where it's like it's already a developed landscape. 1:21:25.439 --> 1:21:29.000 It's in a town. It's a developed landscape, it has buildings, 1:21:29.680 --> 1:21:32.639 it's not like on the side of wildlife habitat right now, 1:21:34.000 --> 1:21:39.920 that makes that's different to me than than uh other 1:21:40.200 --> 1:21:42.559 you know that that's different to me in other cases. 1:21:42.600 --> 1:21:44.920 And when you look at the acreage, I feel like 1:21:46.280 --> 1:21:50.120 when you look at the acreage, it will have to stray, 1:21:50.280 --> 1:21:54.120 like it'll have to stray from already developed sites. Like 1:21:54.400 --> 1:21:55.599 do you feel that you're going to get there? 1:21:56.360 --> 1:21:58.360 I don't. I hope not. I mean I think. 1:21:58.560 --> 1:22:01.040 I mean, do you think there's enough already develop sites 1:22:01.080 --> 1:22:02.839 to like fuel this ambition? 1:22:03.200 --> 1:22:06.439 No, not to fill the gap of what we you know, 1:22:06.680 --> 1:22:10.040 to meet affordable housing needs. Know you would have, but 1:22:10.120 --> 1:22:13.120 there are still some spots that again you if you 1:22:13.160 --> 1:22:15.080 were king, you get to look at and decide it 1:22:15.360 --> 1:22:17.800 where it's just I don't know, survey from one hundred 1:22:17.880 --> 1:22:21.360 years ago, where it's like it's kind of it's it's 1:22:21.360 --> 1:22:23.600 not developed, there's nothing on it, but it's there's a 1:22:23.640 --> 1:22:26.599 little spot right by Eastvale or. 1:22:26.600 --> 1:22:30.680 Yeah, it's not like valuable wildlife habitat range. 1:22:30.439 --> 1:22:33.000 Technically, but it's also surrounded by a hotel and so 1:22:33.160 --> 1:22:36.240 like forty acres, we should build housing on that, but 1:22:36.280 --> 1:22:40.559 it's not designated to administrative sites. So but I'm with 1:22:40.600 --> 1:22:42.680 you one hundred percent. I don't think we can you 1:22:42.760 --> 1:22:45.160 start to crawl up the mountain and the other thing. 1:22:45.200 --> 1:22:48.160 It should be for some public good, not let's just 1:22:48.200 --> 1:22:49.760 sell it off so a rich person could buy it 1:22:49.800 --> 1:22:52.200 and build a second home. Yeah, like this whole issue 1:22:52.200 --> 1:22:54.639 of affordable housing indeed restrict to housing, I can get 1:22:54.680 --> 1:22:55.680 on board some of that. 1:22:56.320 --> 1:22:58.639 Do you feel that there's a way that you would 1:22:58.680 --> 1:23:03.280 take this affordable housing issue? That's that's forward right now, 1:23:03.360 --> 1:23:05.280 unless say we have a way that we there's a 1:23:05.400 --> 1:23:08.880 checks and there's a system to measure, like is this 1:23:08.960 --> 1:23:12.679 achieving the goal? If the public is behind affordable housing? 1:23:12.760 --> 1:23:14.960 Is this creating affordable housing? And that seems like to 1:23:15.000 --> 1:23:16.559 me like a thing that you could either that you 1:23:16.600 --> 1:23:21.960 could that you could put numbers around and understand if 1:23:21.960 --> 1:23:25.400 this is true in execution or not, Like define affordable 1:23:25.439 --> 1:23:27.880 housing and then something will monitor to make sure that 1:23:27.960 --> 1:23:31.240 this is being effective and creating affordable housing. Is there 1:23:31.240 --> 1:23:37.599 a way to get there with land swaps where if 1:23:37.640 --> 1:23:41.240 we're talking if we define like these are like marginal pieces, 1:23:41.400 --> 1:23:47.040 isolated pieces, marginal pieces of wildlife habitat that are close 1:23:47.120 --> 1:23:50.719 to urban centers or suburban centers, we're going to open 1:23:50.760 --> 1:23:53.439 these up. Is there a way to pull this off 1:23:53.479 --> 1:23:56.320 where there's not a net loss in public acreage? Can 1:23:56.360 --> 1:23:57.480 we get better stuff. 1:23:57.200 --> 1:23:59.960 And say you can get a gain an actual acre 1:24:00.400 --> 1:24:02.680 And I think, you know, that's kind of been the 1:24:02.720 --> 1:24:05.679 trend because the place closer to the resort, if you will, 1:24:05.800 --> 1:24:09.160 or closer town, is gonna be worth more than some 1:24:09.200 --> 1:24:11.719 stream side up the hill, some in holding up the hill. 1:24:11.880 --> 1:24:14.320 So I think that's a great way to do it. 1:24:14.360 --> 1:24:18.800 The problem is if I don't know, I don't know 1:24:18.840 --> 1:24:20.639 if the states could do it, I guess the counties 1:24:20.640 --> 1:24:23.080 would have to zone that to say this has to 1:24:23.080 --> 1:24:27.040 be affordable housing. We're not helping the situation if we're 1:24:27.080 --> 1:24:31.720 just making more second homes. That's what's wrecking all these communities. 1:24:31.760 --> 1:24:32.879 It's and I don't. 1:24:32.840 --> 1:24:38.040 Well, look at Park City, Jackson, Holly Bozeman, Like the 1:24:38.080 --> 1:24:42.400 neighborhood I live in just just filled up magically with 1:24:42.640 --> 1:24:47.920 the the the heavy snow gone, including my next door 1:24:47.960 --> 1:24:55.559 neighbor who's sidewalk I've been maintaining in their absence. Right, Yeah, 1:24:55.640 --> 1:24:59.439 there's a shitload of housing there that nobody is living 1:24:59.479 --> 1:25:01.559 in until the weather gets nice. 1:25:02.400 --> 1:25:04.000 Or the VRBO or whatever. 1:25:04.080 --> 1:25:07.519 If you look at the newspaper here in town, it's 1:25:07.520 --> 1:25:12.920 been every week there's been a oh that affordable housing thing. 1:25:13.160 --> 1:25:16.280 Nobody liked that in the gallat and Valley. 1:25:16.320 --> 1:25:18.240 We need to just build it somewhere else. 1:25:18.560 --> 1:25:23.000 Well, yeah, exactly, and ketch mydaho. There's a great project 1:25:23.200 --> 1:25:26.040 for housing for for forest service. 1:25:26.120 --> 1:25:28.280 It's the same leasing program, man, Yeah. 1:25:28.080 --> 1:25:33.080 Same leasing program. The town doesn't like it. It's gonna 1:25:33.080 --> 1:25:36.240 be put too many people who go to the bars, 1:25:36.360 --> 1:25:37.960 was one of the quotes in one spot. 1:25:39.520 --> 1:25:41.559 The bar owners like, sweet, the other. 1:25:43.080 --> 1:25:45.960 Built this town makes his town great. Let's not have 1:25:46.040 --> 1:25:46.479 them here. 1:25:46.760 --> 1:25:51.280 Yeah. The other affordable housing project that they did squeak 1:25:51.360 --> 1:25:55.720 through in zoning to get one more level on an 1:25:55.760 --> 1:26:02.080 existing property downtown, right, that all turned into vrbos. Yeah, 1:26:02.120 --> 1:26:06.559 there's no no affordable housing there. And so you cannot 1:26:07.000 --> 1:26:11.040 tell me like it'd be like you parents should chime 1:26:11.080 --> 1:26:16.479 in on this, your kids like, I can't live in 1:26:16.479 --> 1:26:18.920 my room anymore. You're like, well, why is that? Well, 1:26:18.960 --> 1:26:20.439 I got too much shit everywhere. 1:26:21.080 --> 1:26:22.080 It sounds familiar. 1:26:22.200 --> 1:26:25.160 I need another room do you go to? 1:26:25.200 --> 1:26:27.760 Which I say, well, why don't you clean up your room? 1:26:28.800 --> 1:26:31.960 Right? And that's the situation that we're in over and 1:26:32.000 --> 1:26:37.719 over and over again. I mean examples everywhere. It's like, well, 1:26:38.240 --> 1:26:40.719 we don't want to block people's site lines by letting 1:26:40.760 --> 1:26:45.519 somebody build a four story building in town, so we 1:26:45.600 --> 1:26:49.080 would like to build up on that hillside or in 1:26:49.120 --> 1:26:53.679 that migration area or in winter range because we can't 1:26:53.880 --> 1:26:59.360 affect anybody who's lived here for thirty years. Park City, Utah. Right, 1:26:59.520 --> 1:27:03.400 that is a fully a tinerant workforce. And all of 1:27:03.400 --> 1:27:06.160 those houses like you go through, like I haven't been 1:27:06.200 --> 1:27:08.960 there in years, but it's all like old mining house, 1:27:09.040 --> 1:27:15.400 single story, little tiny homes that are overwhelmingly like VRBO 1:27:15.560 --> 1:27:21.840 vacation rental properties. Right, It's like we can't ignore that 1:27:21.960 --> 1:27:28.120 problem and expect this new acreage. 1:27:27.800 --> 1:27:31.519 Right, If you're going to do we should that should 1:27:32.080 --> 1:27:34.439 going to the public land should be towards the end 1:27:34.520 --> 1:27:37.880 of the resort, more of the last resort. But if 1:27:37.880 --> 1:27:40.800 you're going to do that, while you don't control short 1:27:40.920 --> 1:27:45.920 term rentals, you don't control the number of second homeowners. Again, 1:27:45.960 --> 1:27:47.680 it's not going to be sustainable because we're going to 1:27:47.720 --> 1:27:49.639 be in the same place because there'll be more people. 1:27:49.680 --> 1:27:52.320 They're going to take by this land and use it 1:27:52.320 --> 1:27:55.880 for second homeowners got address the affordable housing. It looks 1:27:55.880 --> 1:27:59.360 like Bozman's building a lot of apartments. Are those deed restricted? 1:27:59.400 --> 1:27:59.840 Any of them? 1:28:00.560 --> 1:28:03.040 I'm not sure. It was just the last couple that 1:28:03.040 --> 1:28:05.639 have been in the paper have been in the downtown core, 1:28:05.800 --> 1:28:08.880 Like there's a conversion of a Senior citizen center that 1:28:08.960 --> 1:28:12.160 would allow a lot more people to live downtown. People 1:28:12.200 --> 1:28:13.280 are up in arms over that. 1:28:13.840 --> 1:28:16.800 Yeah, I don't understand getting up arms over that. Man. 1:28:16.920 --> 1:28:18.000 It's just like, what the hell. 1:28:18.040 --> 1:28:19.679 It's a great place to put people, right. 1:28:19.600 --> 1:28:23.360 We just don't listen. We're all here because we love 1:28:23.400 --> 1:28:26.639 the out out of doors, but we'd rather construct more 1:28:26.840 --> 1:28:29.479 stuff on the out of doors if it affects my 1:28:29.520 --> 1:28:30.320 parking downtown. 1:28:31.400 --> 1:28:32.599 We're getting terribly local. 1:28:32.640 --> 1:28:36.760 Now, you did you brought up land swaps? 1:28:37.160 --> 1:28:37.559 Did you. 1:28:39.479 --> 1:28:43.000 Administrate much of that, because that's a big thing that 1:28:43.160 --> 1:28:45.439 you know, we talked about, especially now with corner crossing, 1:28:45.600 --> 1:28:48.400 you know, back up in the news where it sure 1:28:48.520 --> 1:28:51.960 seems like you could like just quickly make a bunch 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:56.480 of these quick moves and consolidate the private people's spots 1:28:56.520 --> 1:28:59.080 and then you know, not have the private in holdings 1:28:59.120 --> 1:29:03.000 on the forest, the LM and everybody would be better off. 1:29:03.880 --> 1:29:05.920 How how come that's not easier to pull off? 1:29:07.920 --> 1:29:10.920 You said quickly, And I was thinking, there's a sixty 1:29:11.000 --> 1:29:14.960 for we have a sixty four step process for land exchanges. 1:29:17.080 --> 1:29:19.439 The land deals are hard. You got to praise everyone, 1:29:19.479 --> 1:29:22.559 and you know you gotta so that just you know, 1:29:22.640 --> 1:29:25.200 title work, that just takes time. And when you're using 1:29:25.960 --> 1:29:29.000 you know, checkerboarded land or trying to consolidate. I think 1:29:29.040 --> 1:29:30.800 you're right on. I think we need to do more 1:29:30.840 --> 1:29:34.400 of it. It's getting a little harder. People aren't getting 1:29:34.439 --> 1:29:36.599 punkier about it. Used to be like, oh, you give 1:29:37.080 --> 1:29:40.040 this little part up in town to someone and then 1:29:40.040 --> 1:29:42.000 you get all this acreage or close the town and 1:29:42.000 --> 1:29:45.479 everyone loves it. But now, just like we've been talking 1:29:45.520 --> 1:29:47.920 about the whole, every every piece seems to matter. You 1:29:47.920 --> 1:29:48.920 can't give that piece up. 1:29:49.439 --> 1:29:52.639 Now we try finding like an apples to apples comparison. 1:29:52.120 --> 1:29:55.160 And then they're comparables and the values are changing so 1:29:55.360 --> 1:29:59.840 fast and so there it's getting harder. But I think 1:30:00.000 --> 1:30:04.000 where Congress can help us do legislative, legislatively mandated ones 1:30:04.040 --> 1:30:06.719 where you don't have to It's like they tell you, okay, 1:30:06.800 --> 1:30:09.080 now go figure out the acreage. But you're doing this 1:30:09.800 --> 1:30:14.080 through legislation as opposed to when it's a discretionary action 1:30:14.200 --> 1:30:16.160 by a for supervisor. We have to go through the 1:30:16.160 --> 1:30:21.519 public public benefit determination, which of course gets into values 1:30:21.560 --> 1:30:24.160 and all that stuff. But I think it's absolutely what 1:30:24.160 --> 1:30:27.040 we need to do more of and that we could 1:30:27.040 --> 1:30:30.599 get help legislatively. But they're tough. I mean, you guys 1:30:30.600 --> 1:30:33.920 are heard of the one over in the Crazies and 1:30:34.000 --> 1:30:37.640 with the Elstone Club and stuff, and it's pretty good exchange. 1:30:38.120 --> 1:30:39.880 But there's some folks that don't like it. 1:30:41.400 --> 1:30:44.000 Yeah, yeah, I mean you're giving up Elk Habitat for 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:46.840 Mountain Goat habitat. Right is one way to look at it. 1:30:47.479 --> 1:30:48.360 I don't know enough about it. 1:30:48.640 --> 1:30:51.200 We can't draw it can't drawn Mountain Goat tag, but 1:30:51.280 --> 1:30:54.759 you can sure hunt over the counter Elk and the Crazies. 1:30:55.600 --> 1:30:58.080 Durfy Hills would be another great one that was proposed 1:30:58.080 --> 1:31:03.120 for land exchange. I mean, that's that's a whole ecosystem 1:31:03.120 --> 1:31:05.080 would be kind of a strong word, but it's a 1:31:05.120 --> 1:31:09.360 whole region with its own elchord, all public, totally landlocked. 1:31:10.280 --> 1:31:14.519 You can fly in there and it's like but the 1:31:14.680 --> 1:31:21.080 exchange for that is like Antelope Country, oh really right, 1:31:21.200 --> 1:31:24.400 So like trying to find again, like find that apples 1:31:24.439 --> 1:31:28.160 to apples comparable and and and then you have historical use. 1:31:28.240 --> 1:31:30.280 You know, there's still plenty of folks of who have 1:31:30.720 --> 1:31:35.720 uh hunted that place and traditionally hunted that place for 1:31:35.800 --> 1:31:39.080 decades and there just is not a comparable swap type 1:31:39.080 --> 1:31:39.360 of thing. 1:31:39.479 --> 1:31:42.760 You know, it's hard propose. You know, when I get 1:31:42.760 --> 1:31:45.120 that job, if I get to be the ANA many 1:31:46.160 --> 1:31:47.720 part of what I'm going to look at and I 1:31:47.760 --> 1:31:52.160 suggest the poor service adopt this is how much what 1:31:52.400 --> 1:31:56.840 biomass does that piece of land host or support? An 1:31:56.840 --> 1:32:03.599 important word and in any swap, any swap would be 1:32:04.080 --> 1:32:09.879 are you gaining biomass that you're supporting or hosting? 1:32:10.000 --> 1:32:12.880 Well, the White River National Forest supports the largest el 1:32:12.960 --> 1:32:14.960 kurd in the world, so it'd be a big ass 1:32:15.000 --> 1:32:18.320 biomass and that's how you help do it. 1:32:18.439 --> 1:32:22.680 And we support the largest biomass of elk hunters in 1:32:22.720 --> 1:32:23.479 the world. I think. 1:32:23.560 --> 1:32:26.880 Yeah, Speaking of which, like what what uh like, what's 1:32:26.920 --> 1:32:29.439 going to happen this fault when like if you could 1:32:29.439 --> 1:32:32.840 crystal ball it based on all the cuts that have 1:32:32.920 --> 1:32:35.479 been made, like when people are trying to get into 1:32:35.520 --> 1:32:38.439 their elk spot, Like is it like, are they going 1:32:38.520 --> 1:32:39.760 to be able to get there? Is there going to 1:32:39.840 --> 1:32:42.559 be safety issues when they do get there, Like it's. 1:32:42.360 --> 1:32:44.280 Going to be a COVID poop pandemic. 1:32:44.840 --> 1:32:46.799 This is where I need to push all those fear buttons. 1:32:47.120 --> 1:32:49.000 Well, that's the thing is, this is another one. Man, 1:32:49.000 --> 1:32:50.680 I hate to keep doing this. This is another one 1:32:50.720 --> 1:32:52.639 that people are throwing out there that I'm not buying 1:32:53.520 --> 1:32:57.960 what I'm not buying that like that there's like an 1:32:58.120 --> 1:33:02.200 x extent that it's an existent crisis that the trails 1:33:02.200 --> 1:33:04.440 won't be cleared. I don't. I don't view it as existentially. 1:33:04.760 --> 1:33:07.599 I think for let's say, like you know, I have 1:33:07.640 --> 1:33:10.360 a bunch of friends that are in this position where 1:33:10.360 --> 1:33:15.400 it's like young families. Their best way of getting out 1:33:16.280 --> 1:33:21.639 is through like established campgrounds with a camper. 1:33:22.000 --> 1:33:24.559 That type of campgrounds is a real problem that. 1:33:24.800 --> 1:33:31.200 Here I can tell we had a budget meeting, so 1:33:31.280 --> 1:33:33.519 we already knew we were going into this field season, 1:33:33.560 --> 1:33:36.600 we will have zero seasonal workforce, the people we just 1:33:36.680 --> 1:33:39.720 hire temporary for the summer. So we knew that. So 1:33:39.760 --> 1:33:45.120 that's zero is zero. Normally we would have fifty or 1:33:45.120 --> 1:33:47.320 sixty or something like that. So that's you know, it 1:33:47.360 --> 1:33:50.240 could be less people clear and trail and things like that. 1:33:51.439 --> 1:33:55.559 We fired you know these what would be like crew leaders, 1:33:55.640 --> 1:33:58.599 the people that are permanent, but they only work half 1:33:58.600 --> 1:34:02.599 the year, and so that'll be problematic. Will it be 1:34:02.920 --> 1:34:04.840 like our people could go, oh my god, what happened? 1:34:04.840 --> 1:34:09.479 I don't think. So are our road maintenance the road 1:34:09.479 --> 1:34:12.000 maintenance budget on the White River when when I left 1:34:12.000 --> 1:34:14.559 and we had a budget meeting because they signed the 1:34:14.600 --> 1:34:18.200 continuing resolution, so we know what our budget's going to 1:34:18.240 --> 1:34:21.040 be the rest of the year. Pretty much. Our road 1:34:21.120 --> 1:34:23.320 maintenance budget we have twenty We have twenty eight hundred 1:34:23.360 --> 1:34:26.880 miles in the road was zero, so that's how much. 1:34:27.080 --> 1:34:29.640 And normally we give that money and to the in 1:34:29.720 --> 1:34:32.439 the agreements, to counties because they have better equipment, to 1:34:32.680 --> 1:34:35.040 more people. And now we have a small we have 1:34:35.640 --> 1:34:38.599 a greater and a three person crew. So we'll we'll 1:34:38.760 --> 1:34:42.160 we'll clean the culverts, thatch blowout or whatever, beavers filling. 1:34:42.200 --> 1:34:43.439 Have you got someone to do it? 1:34:44.120 --> 1:34:46.360 Yeah, we have three people. We've lost two. 1:34:46.600 --> 1:34:49.360 But so you for you folks and the White you 1:34:49.479 --> 1:34:52.120 recreationists and the forest over there. If you see this 1:34:52.240 --> 1:34:55.080 three person crew, I'm sure they'd really like to know 1:34:55.240 --> 1:34:56.960 the areas that also need work. 1:34:57.040 --> 1:34:57.639 That's right now. 1:34:57.680 --> 1:35:01.360 I'm sure the road system feels custential is maybe too 1:35:01.360 --> 1:35:03.800 big of a word, right, But the road system that 1:35:03.920 --> 1:35:06.200 work feels to me like a real issue. 1:35:05.920 --> 1:35:08.559 Right, But it's also something it's like one year, you 1:35:08.600 --> 1:35:11.360 may not notice it, two years, three years, just like 1:35:11.840 --> 1:35:16.160 the road you know, just the way maintenance of infrastructure works. 1:35:18.080 --> 1:35:22.439 The recreation budget on the busiest recreation force in the country, 1:35:22.840 --> 1:35:25.360 so discretionary. So we've got our people we paid for. 1:35:25.479 --> 1:35:29.720 But then like the clean toilets, the toilet contracts and 1:35:30.360 --> 1:35:34.120 you know, toilet paper and whatever stuff was one hundred 1:35:34.120 --> 1:35:36.400 and forty thousand bucks for two and a half million 1:35:36.400 --> 1:35:38.960 acres and eighteen million people. Comes to about zero point 1:35:39.120 --> 1:35:42.439 nine cents per visitor. If you're wondering, you kidding me, Yeah, 1:35:42.560 --> 1:35:45.160 So will it be? 1:35:45.640 --> 1:35:46.840 Is that intact. 1:35:48.400 --> 1:35:52.639 The budget the toilet paper budget? No, it's not. Literally, 1:35:52.800 --> 1:35:56.800 we were we don't have enough money. We were looking 1:35:56.840 --> 1:35:59.479 at and I don't normally get involved with this, we're 1:35:59.520 --> 1:36:03.240 like in the detail, but they were looking at. Normally 1:36:04.040 --> 1:36:06.160 these sites are pumped three times a year. We're going 1:36:06.200 --> 1:36:09.000 to do them once. Well, those are it's not gonna 1:36:09.000 --> 1:36:12.559 be great. So will people see things, yes, will it 1:36:12.560 --> 1:36:15.400 be like you know, it's not going to be the 1:36:15.520 --> 1:36:19.320 end of the world. I think depending on fire seasons 1:36:19.360 --> 1:36:22.360 and flood seasons and things like that, I think there'll 1:36:22.400 --> 1:36:26.679 be some change. I'm worried a lot. So when there's 1:36:26.920 --> 1:36:30.080 a fire of any significance, there's what's called an agency administrator. 1:36:30.080 --> 1:36:32.160 It's one of us line officers. So if there's a 1:36:32.200 --> 1:36:34.840 fire on the White River or you know, on the 1:36:35.080 --> 1:36:38.599 on the Galloton, here the local line officers he had 1:36:38.640 --> 1:36:43.160 made agency administrators and we we we have overall responsibility. 1:36:43.200 --> 1:36:46.960 Even if a thousand firefighters come in, we're still overseeing them. 1:36:46.960 --> 1:36:49.840 We go through a ton of training and stuff. They 1:36:49.880 --> 1:36:52.599 do the work, but we set objectives. We you know, 1:36:52.800 --> 1:36:54.720 things like that, here's what I want you to do 1:36:54.760 --> 1:36:57.600 with this fire, because fire crew would come and just 1:36:58.160 --> 1:37:00.320 spend money and put it out. I mean, but you know, 1:37:00.640 --> 1:37:04.200 here's what resources. I want these houses protected as a priority. 1:37:05.680 --> 1:37:08.080 A lot of us that are retiring are the most 1:37:08.120 --> 1:37:11.800 experienced people doing that. You know, in our region in 1:37:11.840 --> 1:37:15.360 Colorado we lost two of the three most experience. That 1:37:15.400 --> 1:37:17.320 won't matter if there's not a bad fire season. But 1:37:17.360 --> 1:37:20.080 if it is, that's the stuff that's going to add up. 1:37:20.160 --> 1:37:23.679 And so that's the stuff I'm worried about in the future. 1:37:24.240 --> 1:37:29.240 I don't see a land sale real quick, but this 1:37:29.320 --> 1:37:30.240 stuff matters. 1:37:33.320 --> 1:37:35.280 Can I hit you with a thing I'm worried about. Yeah, 1:37:35.400 --> 1:37:37.240 maybe you can tell me if this is a reasonable fear, 1:37:37.640 --> 1:37:41.080 if you should sleep at night. I'm worried about this. 1:37:43.000 --> 1:37:51.400 I could picture a for a supervisor in a left 1:37:51.479 --> 1:37:55.520 leaning state. So let's say a forest supervisor in Washington, 1:37:55.640 --> 1:38:02.320 a forest supervisor in California says, fine, I'm closing my 1:38:02.439 --> 1:38:06.760 forest because I don't have the staff right and they 1:38:06.840 --> 1:38:09.599 use it to score political points. Is that possible? 1:38:11.240 --> 1:38:15.599 Before I left, we got explicit direction that shall not happen. 1:38:17.000 --> 1:38:20.040 I was hoping that because I could picture someone saying, right, 1:38:20.360 --> 1:38:21.960 I'm taking my marbles and going home. 1:38:23.479 --> 1:38:28.360 We call it the you know, the Washington Monument strategy. 1:38:28.520 --> 1:38:29.839 You know, I'm not familiar. 1:38:30.560 --> 1:38:33.400 Park Service is masterful at this. Cut the park service 1:38:33.439 --> 1:38:37.840 budget close, oh yeah, yeah, and closing the Washington Monument 1:38:37.920 --> 1:38:39.760 and make it screams and said what happened? And so 1:38:40.240 --> 1:38:42.640 we've never done that, We've never taken that out. I 1:38:42.680 --> 1:38:45.320 think I think there's going to be some things that 1:38:45.600 --> 1:38:48.640 are going to require it. Well, at least when I 1:38:48.760 --> 1:38:52.200 left a month ago. If you had if you could 1:38:52.280 --> 1:38:56.559 show your budget couldn't support a campground being opened, it 1:38:56.680 --> 1:38:58.719 had to go all the way to the Secretary's office 1:38:58.720 --> 1:39:01.879 to get approval. So that's gonna be hard to get 1:39:02.520 --> 1:39:03.320 a campground. 1:39:03.600 --> 1:39:07.320 So they're like reviewing a campground site. We have. We 1:39:07.360 --> 1:39:10.600 have this beautiful four visitors site here. We'd like to 1:39:10.640 --> 1:39:11.719 get back up and run. 1:39:12.000 --> 1:39:16.680 If a four supervisor proposes to close any public facility, 1:39:17.880 --> 1:39:19.400 it's got to be run up to change. So I 1:39:19.720 --> 1:39:20.760 don't think you have to worry to. 1:39:20.840 --> 1:39:24.760 They're like they're anticipating and ten at because it would happen. 1:39:24.840 --> 1:39:26.680 It's called the Washington Mall strands. 1:39:26.400 --> 1:39:31.080 The Washington Monument was. Moment she closed the monuments, I'll close, Yeah, 1:39:31.360 --> 1:39:33.920 I have. The Park Service gets away with it. They've 1:39:33.920 --> 1:39:36.439 gotten away with it since nineteen ninety four. I mean, 1:39:37.479 --> 1:39:39.200 you guys are all too young for that. But when 1:39:39.200 --> 1:39:42.240 the Republicans in ninety four took control the House for 1:39:42.280 --> 1:39:47.080 the first time in forty years, right, they they went 1:39:47.080 --> 1:39:51.760 after everything, the contract with America and Newt Grich was 1:39:51.800 --> 1:39:54.280 the speaker of the house, and they were cutting and stuff, 1:39:54.280 --> 1:39:58.000 and they went after the Park Service pretty harshly, and 1:39:58.000 --> 1:40:00.000 and they cut their budget pretty good. In the parks 1:40:00.200 --> 1:40:04.280 said fine. And Mike Finley was the superintendent of Yellowstone 1:40:04.320 --> 1:40:07.280 here and he was he was like this with President Clinton. 1:40:07.360 --> 1:40:09.479 He was really close to him and Ted Turner and 1:40:09.840 --> 1:40:14.280 he eventually went out to run the Turner Foundation. But 1:40:14.360 --> 1:40:17.160 they just said, fine, we'll close the gates, We'll close 1:40:17.160 --> 1:40:21.360 the whole faithful and and uh and I mean you 1:40:21.360 --> 1:40:23.280 you know a little newspaper you get when you go 1:40:23.280 --> 1:40:26.400 into the park. After those budget cuts, like it was 1:40:26.439 --> 1:40:31.240 like Bambi's gonna die because of congressional bubjet cuts really 1:40:31.439 --> 1:40:36.000 really oh yeah, they and within a year and a 1:40:36.040 --> 1:40:38.599 half there was the give the Park Service as much 1:40:38.840 --> 1:40:41.679 money as you want, supported by Congressmen on both sides, 1:40:41.720 --> 1:40:45.040 and they got all the money they wanted. So but 1:40:45.080 --> 1:40:47.519 the Park Service has gates and you know they can 1:40:47.960 --> 1:40:52.240 do that. You much better. And back then things weren't 1:40:52.320 --> 1:40:54.400 quite as well as they are politically, but it was 1:40:54.439 --> 1:40:56.800 awesome to watch. It was like, damn, how do you 1:40:56.800 --> 1:40:58.960 guys do that? As they cut our budgets and we 1:40:59.000 --> 1:40:59.640 didn't get int of it. 1:40:59.720 --> 1:41:01.680 Back that would be. 1:41:01.760 --> 1:41:08.719 My worry is that with lack of employees, there's probably 1:41:08.800 --> 1:41:12.800 some amount of enforcement employees that will not be on 1:41:12.840 --> 1:41:15.960 the ground anymore. And if you it kind of links 1:41:16.040 --> 1:41:19.360 up to the same thing with the maintenance, if that's 1:41:19.400 --> 1:41:21.639 not getting done well. I think we saw it once 1:41:21.760 --> 1:41:23.800 in an Eagle County and this is just what I 1:41:23.840 --> 1:41:25.280 was told. I don't know, and we're not going to 1:41:25.320 --> 1:41:26.719 bring up the spot with so I don't. 1:41:26.520 --> 1:41:27.160 Want to burn it. 1:41:27.360 --> 1:41:31.160 But because the road couldn't be maintained and the ruts 1:41:31.160 --> 1:41:33.439 got too big, it was too dangerous, they just closed 1:41:33.439 --> 1:41:35.760 the road and so I don't know if that was 1:41:35.800 --> 1:41:36.599 the actual reason. 1:41:36.680 --> 1:41:38.040 But instead of like being. 1:41:37.840 --> 1:41:39.760 Able to drive way up in there, you had to 1:41:39.800 --> 1:41:41.559 hike from the bottom, and it was a heck of 1:41:41.600 --> 1:41:45.680 a much longer hunt at that point. But if there's 1:41:45.720 --> 1:41:48.840 no one to enforce that gate and people just start 1:41:48.880 --> 1:41:50.640 going around it, and then we end up with like 1:41:50.720 --> 1:41:53.280 what you see down Alaska when you're flying into your 1:41:53.280 --> 1:41:56.599 moose spot and the ATV trails just go farther and 1:41:56.640 --> 1:41:59.040 farther every year, and the big swamp buggy trails go 1:41:59.160 --> 1:42:00.439 farther and farther every year. 1:42:00.800 --> 1:42:02.120 Zero enforcement action. 1:42:02.360 --> 1:42:05.679 Yeah, it could become like you know, wild West lawless 1:42:05.720 --> 1:42:09.240 stuff like people doing whatever they want. Right, Okay, so 1:42:09.400 --> 1:42:10.920 is that a real worry I should have. 1:42:13.080 --> 1:42:17.600 Yeah, I'm hesitating because I don't want to like, hey, this, 1:42:17.840 --> 1:42:19.759 I mean, you're to go out there and do bad stuff. 1:42:19.960 --> 1:42:22.639 It's happening right now. Yeah, right, I mean it's. 1:42:22.439 --> 1:42:25.840 A huge concern because what I've seen in the data 1:42:25.840 --> 1:42:28.920 shows the biggest atterrent is just boots on the ground. 1:42:29.000 --> 1:42:30.840 Doesn't have to be a cop with a gun. Doesn't 1:42:30.880 --> 1:42:32.960 that be just that they see a white truck or 1:42:33.240 --> 1:42:36.439 back in the day, a green truck. People behave more. 1:42:36.960 --> 1:42:39.080 I mean just the way it is, and without those 1:42:39.120 --> 1:42:41.559 people out there, I absolutely think we're going to have 1:42:41.600 --> 1:42:44.400 that kind of there's no one to go to take 1:42:44.439 --> 1:42:47.320 care of it, and then people get frustrated, up, why 1:42:47.360 --> 1:42:51.599 aren't you doing anything about that? That's the public service 1:42:51.680 --> 1:42:55.160 cycle I hate to see broken. And what I'm at 1:42:55.240 --> 1:42:59.760 least at this stage and whatever you know, reform is 1:42:59.800 --> 1:43:02.559 being done to our public land agencies. 1:43:02.560 --> 1:43:05.880 This is is there a law enforcement aspect to the 1:43:06.000 --> 1:43:08.320 National Forest Service Like I know we used to see 1:43:09.120 --> 1:43:12.639 like BLM officers, like service rangers. 1:43:13.280 --> 1:43:18.560 There's there's law enforcement officers again, it's just part of 1:43:18.600 --> 1:43:21.280 the culture of our agency. We we just we're not 1:43:21.360 --> 1:43:24.680 the enforcement people. And so you know, our force the 1:43:24.720 --> 1:43:27.280 busiest in the country and in the most visitors and 1:43:27.320 --> 1:43:29.280 the inner state running right through the middle of it. 1:43:30.520 --> 1:43:33.880 There's now one when we're fully staffed, we have. 1:43:33.840 --> 1:43:37.519 Three so pistol pack and rangers. 1:43:37.600 --> 1:43:42.000 Yeah, fully you know vested or whatever they call. 1:43:41.920 --> 1:43:44.400 The Yeah, they can actually arrest you, dat, they. 1:43:44.320 --> 1:43:48.880 Can rescue there. The state has they can enforce some 1:43:48.960 --> 1:43:53.160 state law, you know, state violations, and yeah we have. 1:43:53.400 --> 1:43:56.160 Because you can also have a lot of people who 1:43:56.160 --> 1:43:59.240 have the authority to write citations. 1:43:59.400 --> 1:44:03.160 Yeah, those are called force protection officers of PLS. Where 1:44:03.600 --> 1:44:05.439 you go to a forty r class you can learn 1:44:05.479 --> 1:44:08.400 how to So that's good. A bunch of people we 1:44:08.640 --> 1:44:11.840 fired were the force protection officers, So that's too bad. 1:44:11.840 --> 1:44:15.640 So we got to get more people trained and so cumultively, 1:44:15.880 --> 1:44:16.760 I'm worried about that. 1:44:18.080 --> 1:44:22.080 But it's not part of the budget discussion, especially after 1:44:22.120 --> 1:44:28.080 this last uh. I don't know order that that Schultz 1:44:28.120 --> 1:44:32.240 sent out. I did like his letter to the Forest Service, 1:44:32.280 --> 1:44:37.800 by the way, that was good, but I imagine it would 1:44:37.800 --> 1:44:40.160 be a logical discussion to be like Okay, we have 1:44:40.280 --> 1:44:43.719 point nine cents per visitor to spend on toilet paper, 1:44:44.840 --> 1:44:48.120 and we can only pump all these toilets wants. So 1:44:48.160 --> 1:44:49.720 what if we close. 1:44:50.040 --> 1:44:52.000 Three of them and keep five open? Yeah? 1:44:52.120 --> 1:44:52.240 Right? 1:44:53.240 --> 1:44:57.720 More that That is what my predecessors are going to 1:44:57.760 --> 1:44:59.960 have to all of them. That's what's going on across 1:45:00.000 --> 1:45:03.639 the country is the massive prioritization. Again, we're thirty six 1:45:03.680 --> 1:45:05.920 trillion dollars in debt as an age, as a nation, 1:45:06.360 --> 1:45:10.000 were every aspect the government should be doing this, thirty 1:45:10.040 --> 1:45:12.360 six trillion dollars. If your kids are not my kid, 1:45:12.439 --> 1:45:17.400 and your kids your kids, they're going to deal with this, dude. 1:45:17.960 --> 1:45:21.040 But the thing is kind of dealing with it like that, right, 1:45:21.120 --> 1:45:26.240 So prior Biden administration, you'll love this. Why because I said, Biden, 1:45:31.960 --> 1:45:37.519 you know the Infrastructure Reduction or sorry, Inflation Reduction Act. 1:45:37.960 --> 1:45:40.840 You know, I heard a lot of people inside the 1:45:40.880 --> 1:45:44.840 Forest Service. I'm really nervous about this influx of cash 1:45:45.520 --> 1:45:50.640 because it didn't end up get getting spent on the 1:45:51.120 --> 1:45:54.640 boots on the ground stuff the people, the stuff the 1:45:54.680 --> 1:45:58.880 people can see and rely on, and it got spent 1:45:59.080 --> 1:46:06.240 in positions that are pretty far removed from the end user. 1:46:06.600 --> 1:46:09.280 No and that's absolutely true. 1:46:09.400 --> 1:46:11.440 And did those positions get cut. 1:46:12.479 --> 1:46:15.000 Yeah, they did. And a huge amount of that money 1:46:15.040 --> 1:46:19.320 is unspent. Yet, first of all, you throw any that 1:46:19.400 --> 1:46:21.040 kind of money, I mean you throw billion dollars at 1:46:21.080 --> 1:46:24.280 the Department of Defense or multi billion dollars in the 1:46:24.280 --> 1:46:29.760 case of infrat IRA and Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill those that 1:46:29.880 --> 1:46:33.400 was a huge, multi billion dollar pump to the four service. 1:46:34.640 --> 1:46:36.320 We're not set up to kind of spend that kind 1:46:36.320 --> 1:46:38.439 of money. Department to Defense. You give me a billion dollars, 1:46:38.720 --> 1:46:42.800 that's one plane, got it done. We're not set up 1:46:42.840 --> 1:46:45.639 for that. So that was just poor planning. And and 1:46:45.760 --> 1:46:47.600 now a lot of that money has not gotten to 1:46:47.680 --> 1:46:51.160 the fuel's work. A lot of the gao A money, 1:46:51.439 --> 1:46:55.400 uh Great America Outdoors money, which you know your senator 1:46:55.479 --> 1:47:00.559 was big and Senator Danes was getting passed again. Influx 1:47:00.560 --> 1:47:02.559 of money and we're not getting it out there to 1:47:02.600 --> 1:47:05.840 the ground fast enough. That's the restructuring. I'd like to 1:47:05.880 --> 1:47:09.320 see why, let's evaluate what's wrong. Well, we don't have 1:47:09.400 --> 1:47:12.400 people in the right places. Takes engineers. When you're redoing 1:47:12.400 --> 1:47:14.639 a campground, you gotta have engineers. Well, this force doesn't 1:47:14.680 --> 1:47:16.680 have one, so it sits there, and it sits there, 1:47:16.720 --> 1:47:22.200 and it sits there. So there's there's plenty to fix 1:47:22.360 --> 1:47:29.920 and plenty to evaluate. I just I worry too as 1:47:29.920 --> 1:47:32.920 we keep going back and forth. This has been the 1:47:32.920 --> 1:47:38.080 biggest swing Trump Biden Trump. Now, like these eight years 1:47:38.120 --> 1:47:41.439 have been like why we are going so far? I 1:47:41.439 --> 1:47:46.800 don't even remember transitions between Bush and Obama. Yeah, they 1:47:46.840 --> 1:47:49.960 talked more about this, but they were seamless. Now we're 1:47:50.000 --> 1:47:52.800 getting these big swings, and I think that's like the 1:47:52.800 --> 1:47:56.479 world we live in, you know, is just more things. 1:47:56.560 --> 1:47:59.080 You know, in the Biden administration, we had to we 1:47:59.120 --> 1:48:02.880 had to label everything. Did it's climate change stuff? Yeah? 1:48:02.920 --> 1:48:07.680 Oh really, I didn't know that clearing that trail was okay, well. 1:48:06.880 --> 1:48:08.760 We've talked about that a bunch. You had to take 1:48:09.120 --> 1:48:11.599 for a while. You had to find a way to 1:48:11.640 --> 1:48:14.360 do what you felt was necessary, but you had to 1:48:14.360 --> 1:48:16.640 rearticulate the reason behind it. And now it led it 1:48:16.800 --> 1:48:21.280 just some like some pretty crazy, like very elastic thinking 1:48:21.439 --> 1:48:23.360 that kind of became almost of self parody. 1:48:23.400 --> 1:48:26.439 I thought, yeah, and and and and the emphasis on 1:48:26.640 --> 1:48:30.000 monuments and wilderness areas and stuff. I'm fall for that. 1:48:31.200 --> 1:48:35.080 But it's been done. It's been pushed by the the 1:48:35.240 --> 1:48:38.760 ends of the spectrums. And now you know in this 1:48:38.840 --> 1:48:44.080 administration it's it's gonna be ol and gas, livestock and timber. 1:48:44.160 --> 1:48:46.720 And there's just something just came out from in the 1:48:46.760 --> 1:48:49.960 for Service where they wanted twenty five percent increase in 1:48:50.040 --> 1:48:54.040 timber production. And the Secretary has declared pretty much every 1:48:54.200 --> 1:48:58.360 piece of National Force land in the country as an 1:48:58.400 --> 1:49:04.960 emergency and it's called Secretarials Emergency Declaration. And and what 1:49:05.000 --> 1:49:11.640 that can do is now that's designated the NEPA process. 1:49:11.800 --> 1:49:15.680 The process changes considerably. There's only two alternatives. Either you 1:49:15.760 --> 1:49:19.120 do it. It's action or no action. So that cuts 1:49:19.120 --> 1:49:22.639 your analysis. Well, what about this alternative? What about this? Ah? See, 1:49:22.680 --> 1:49:26.960 there you do it? You don't there's no objections. You 1:49:26.960 --> 1:49:29.639 know that internal process where someone can say I object 1:49:29.680 --> 1:49:31.360 to this, and we evaluate. 1:49:30.880 --> 1:49:31.120 It and. 1:49:32.720 --> 1:49:38.000 We can implement it immediately. And so you either litigate 1:49:38.080 --> 1:49:40.360 to stop it immediately or it's going to go through 1:49:40.479 --> 1:49:43.280 and it's a round fuels forest health. I don't know 1:49:43.280 --> 1:49:45.160 if that's such a bad thing. It's just such a 1:49:45.160 --> 1:49:46.120 big swing, you know. 1:49:46.360 --> 1:49:49.759 Yeah, Well, I offered my services on land swaps, correct. 1:49:49.920 --> 1:49:52.880 I will also offer my services. I will come in 1:49:52.920 --> 1:49:56.719 and unilaterly be red light green light on timber projects. 1:49:56.960 --> 1:49:59.599 And trust me, there are a lot of timber projects 1:49:59.640 --> 1:50:00.840 that I would give a green light too. 1:50:00.840 --> 1:50:01.720 I think you would too. 1:50:02.080 --> 1:50:03.000 I am so. 1:50:03.040 --> 1:50:04.400 They're I'm gonna be busy. 1:50:04.439 --> 1:50:08.240 Because you know, it's a free market deal. Like I'm 1:50:08.320 --> 1:50:11.919 not lighting my hair on fire over the timber mandate 1:50:12.479 --> 1:50:17.679 because I mean, I don't in a lot of Montana, 1:50:17.720 --> 1:50:21.479 I don't see anything changing. There's a lot of chunks 1:50:21.479 --> 1:50:24.080 of forests that people walk into and they're like, oh 1:50:24.160 --> 1:50:27.960 my god, this should be cleaned up. Well, you're gonna 1:50:28.000 --> 1:50:29.920 have to pay out a pocket to have somebody coat 1:50:30.000 --> 1:50:30.639 go clean. 1:50:30.760 --> 1:50:32.559 Work a couple thousand bucks an acre? 1:50:33.200 --> 1:50:33.639 How much? 1:50:33.840 --> 1:50:36.360 Oh a couple grand for fuels? Work that just that 1:50:36.479 --> 1:50:38.040 where there's nothing merchantable at the. 1:50:38.160 --> 1:50:40.360 It's not merchantable, right, and we don't. 1:50:40.120 --> 1:50:43.200 Have that's a lot of money right for us. 1:50:43.240 --> 1:50:47.320 Like plus like like Missoula is such a great example, right, 1:50:47.439 --> 1:50:49.840 Like when Steve was going to school there, I was 1:50:49.920 --> 1:50:54.000 growing up, right, we really had three lumber mills right there. 1:50:54.520 --> 1:50:57.320 We have zero now right right, There's still a lot 1:50:57.320 --> 1:50:59.960 of forest around Missoula, and a lot that I think 1:51:00.040 --> 1:51:03.000 people would really argue needs to be something's got to 1:51:03.040 --> 1:51:03.479 be done here. 1:51:03.560 --> 1:51:05.600 I don't know this for a fact because I'm not 1:51:05.640 --> 1:51:08.400 an expert in the industry, but there were no tariffs 1:51:08.400 --> 1:51:09.400 on Canadian timber. 1:51:10.680 --> 1:51:12.360 No I thought there was. I mean they had it 1:51:12.439 --> 1:51:13.559 led to the emergency order. 1:51:13.800 --> 1:51:16.120 Uh huh. They at the end they pulled out a 1:51:16.360 --> 1:51:21.200 timber was lumber was not, oh tiff because we don't 1:51:21.200 --> 1:51:24.320 have the capet. We can't produce enough lumber here in 1:51:24.360 --> 1:51:26.599 America to keep the builders going. So the builders must 1:51:26.640 --> 1:51:29.439 have got someone and said, hey, don't do this because 1:51:29.439 --> 1:51:30.960 you're going to jack the prices through the. 1:51:30.960 --> 1:51:33.439 Real dude, there was recently a big There was real. 1:51:33.560 --> 1:51:35.240 They wrapped it up, but there was a big clear 1:51:35.280 --> 1:51:39.840 cut in There was a big clear cut in our 1:51:40.080 --> 1:51:41.879 area where we hang out in southeast Alaska. 1:51:42.640 --> 1:51:44.240 Oh, I thought, you're going to talk about my spot 1:51:44.240 --> 1:51:45.640 there in Wisconsin. No. 1:51:45.760 --> 1:51:49.000 Oh yeah, yeah, he's a private clear cut. 1:51:49.240 --> 1:51:50.519 There's down like twelve trees. 1:51:50.760 --> 1:51:54.400 There was a big clear cut in southeast Alaska and 1:51:55.920 --> 1:51:57.920 it was tribal land. But there was a bunch of 1:51:58.000 --> 1:52:00.000 land swaps to put the package together. 1:52:00.320 --> 1:52:04.000 Yeah, okay, So it wound up being that state moved. 1:52:03.800 --> 1:52:07.360 To federal, and federal move to tribal, and the tribal 1:52:07.360 --> 1:52:09.479 moved to state. Whatever the hell. And in the end 1:52:09.479 --> 1:52:12.240 they put together a cut and we got to wash 1:52:12.280 --> 1:52:15.280 this cut over the summer and or over many summers. 1:52:15.640 --> 1:52:18.719 And I'll tell you man, that would okay. Those trees 1:52:19.640 --> 1:52:23.240 go into the ocean cutting logs with the bark on 1:52:25.200 --> 1:52:27.320 and then they go on to a barge and they 1:52:27.360 --> 1:52:32.880 do not touch American soil. Nope, that ship is over seas. 1:52:33.520 --> 1:52:36.639 It doesn't even get Like I mean, if some bark 1:52:36.680 --> 1:52:39.120 falls off in the ocean, that's as much processing as 1:52:39.120 --> 1:52:41.719 that wood is getting in the US. Dude, and it's gone. 1:52:41.960 --> 1:52:46.400 And then you hear about losing our capacity on lumber 1:52:46.400 --> 1:52:51.080 and stuff. It's like, dude, it's going over in the round. Yeah, 1:52:51.400 --> 1:52:53.120 it used to be and I don't even know where 1:52:53.120 --> 1:52:54.880 it again. Like you could look and be like, oh, 1:52:54.920 --> 1:52:57.559 that seems crazy, but I don't even know where to 1:52:57.600 --> 1:52:59.400 begin to start, Like I don't even know how to 1:52:59.400 --> 1:52:59.800 begin to. 1:52:59.800 --> 1:53:02.360 Dre I sing a problem like that, Well, it used 1:53:02.360 --> 1:53:08.880 Tonga's lumber used to not be They've approved special provisions 1:53:08.880 --> 1:53:10.800 to send it in the round overseas. It used to 1:53:10.920 --> 1:53:13.880 has to be manufactured at least on three sides, you know, 1:53:14.520 --> 1:53:18.639 in America, but the industry is in such dire straits 1:53:18.720 --> 1:53:21.120 up there. And yeah, I mean the reality is the 1:53:21.160 --> 1:53:24.200 old golf the industry cannot survive period. 1:53:24.240 --> 1:53:29.679 I mean, well, this same outfit, the same tribal court 1:53:29.960 --> 1:53:34.200 that did this clear cut. They they announced a ninety 1:53:34.320 --> 1:53:36.599 nine year moratorium on old growth. 1:53:36.680 --> 1:53:37.320 Oh no kidding. 1:53:37.400 --> 1:53:39.559 Yeah, I don't know if they'll stick to it. Yeah, 1:53:39.880 --> 1:53:42.880 there was internal strife. They announced a ninety nine year 1:53:42.920 --> 1:53:45.040 moratorium and they closed that cut early. 1:53:45.400 --> 1:53:46.280 Yeah, so. 1:53:47.800 --> 1:53:50.880 Uh, let me. I want to go ahead, and then 1:53:50.880 --> 1:53:52.720 I want to ask a last question. I just want 1:53:52.760 --> 1:53:53.639 you to clarify a point. 1:53:53.880 --> 1:53:58.240 I just wonder I've thought a lot about. I don't 1:53:58.240 --> 1:54:00.880 know if it'll be fixed, but you know how much 1:54:01.840 --> 1:54:05.920 advocacy and environmental groups and stuff owned some of the extremes. 1:54:05.960 --> 1:54:08.439 And I think people have got to really look in 1:54:08.479 --> 1:54:11.960 the mirror and start saying, what are we really fighting against? 1:54:12.000 --> 1:54:14.559 Is it fighting against something we're really concerned about, or 1:54:14.640 --> 1:54:16.200 is it this is a really good way to keep 1:54:16.240 --> 1:54:19.320 our money flowing. Because this model has worked really good. 1:54:19.439 --> 1:54:23.160 You demonize, say this guy is falling, find an enemy, 1:54:23.200 --> 1:54:25.559 and then say send us money. We'll save m you 1:54:25.600 --> 1:54:29.200 know whatever. And I think about that a lot, and 1:54:29.240 --> 1:54:31.400 I think about if that can work on that in 1:54:31.400 --> 1:54:34.000 my retirement to try to, you know, bring more collaboration 1:54:34.120 --> 1:54:37.120 to these discussions about about force management. 1:54:37.240 --> 1:54:40.440 But I want, I want to ask you a retired 1:54:40.440 --> 1:54:46.280 guy question. Yeah, in all these conversations that are happening 1:54:46.320 --> 1:54:49.040 right now, I just want to clarify a personal like 1:54:49.080 --> 1:54:55.200 a personal guiding strategy here in these conversations that we're having. 1:54:55.280 --> 1:55:01.160 I've tried to an issue and issues about federal management agencies. 1:55:02.120 --> 1:55:06.720 I've tried to be like to remain like somewhat cooperative 1:55:07.600 --> 1:55:10.800 because I've been very clear over the years about like 1:55:10.880 --> 1:55:13.400 the things that matter to me, right, things that matter 1:55:13.480 --> 1:55:16.360 to me is like hunting, fishing issues and wildlife habitat. 1:55:16.360 --> 1:55:18.360 And I joke about if I was the emperor of 1:55:18.400 --> 1:55:20.320 the country, what I would do, and it would be 1:55:20.360 --> 1:55:24.760 all wildlife all the time, right, And I would if 1:55:24.760 --> 1:55:25.760 I was the emperor of the country. 1:55:25.760 --> 1:55:26.120 But I'm not. 1:55:26.200 --> 1:55:29.640 No one's asking me to be. So I've tried to 1:55:29.680 --> 1:55:34.320 look at this issue and say, Okay, there are economic 1:55:34.360 --> 1:55:39.200 troubles in the country. We overspend, right, there's problems in 1:55:39.240 --> 1:55:43.200 the country at a macro level. So instead of saying 1:55:43.320 --> 1:55:48.920 that business as usual is the only acceptable path, I've 1:55:48.920 --> 1:55:51.040 tried to like find a way in my mind to 1:55:51.080 --> 1:55:54.280 be a little more constructive and say, Okay, what are 1:55:54.320 --> 1:55:56.680 the objectives, what are we trying to achieve? What are 1:55:56.720 --> 1:56:00.240 the objective realities here? And how could it be done 1:56:00.240 --> 1:56:05.080 in a way that doesn't that is less negative for 1:56:05.240 --> 1:56:10.520 Americans in my community who use natural resources and and 1:56:11.760 --> 1:56:15.680 raise their families and spend their time and out, you know, 1:56:16.040 --> 1:56:21.720 in nature. Okay, with that rambling sort of precursor, what 1:56:21.760 --> 1:56:23.840 I'm going to say, I'm just like setting this question up. 1:56:24.480 --> 1:56:26.280 If someone had come to you, based on what you 1:56:26.320 --> 1:56:28.760 know about the Forest Service, if someone had come to 1:56:28.800 --> 1:56:35.040 you and said, we need to find efficiencies, like we 1:56:35.320 --> 1:56:38.720 have to find efficiencies, we have to spend less money, 1:56:39.160 --> 1:56:43.760 we have to save money, and we don't want to 1:56:43.920 --> 1:56:47.960 impact the American taxpayer who's utilizing these lands. We want 1:56:48.000 --> 1:56:51.840 to have minimized impact on that taxpayer. Like our customer, 1:56:52.280 --> 1:56:55.600 so to speak. And they said to you, here's the 1:56:56.480 --> 1:57:00.360 ten percent cut package. Okay, bring me a ten percent 1:57:00.440 --> 1:57:04.280 cut package, drink, bring me a twenty percent cut package, 1:57:04.840 --> 1:57:09.480 bring me a thirty percent cut package. At what percent 1:57:10.360 --> 1:57:13.040 would you start to be like impossible. 1:57:17.520 --> 1:57:21.120 Wow, my colleagues are still working. Probably kill me when 1:57:21.120 --> 1:57:30.760 it hears thirty to forty and and here's what, here's. 1:57:30.520 --> 1:57:33.680 Why is that you like specifically for White River or 1:57:33.840 --> 1:57:35.240 for Service Service wide? 1:57:35.360 --> 1:57:38.840 Yeah? Uh, there are there are things that we need 1:57:38.840 --> 1:57:41.920 to come to grips with. Did an analysis before it's 1:57:42.120 --> 1:57:48.000 cool thing about computers and SharePoint sits and stuff? Did 1:57:48.080 --> 1:57:52.760 an analysis? Set so for Service has a Washington office 1:57:52.920 --> 1:57:58.760 and has nine regional offices Denver, Missoula, California, Albuquerque, Salt Lake, 1:57:58.880 --> 1:58:01.280 blah blah blah. And then there's a field. Then there's 1:58:01.280 --> 1:58:08.520 the forest, and then there's forest has districts. Thirty five 1:58:08.720 --> 1:58:13.120 percent of our employees, of all our employees non fire. 1:58:13.160 --> 1:58:17.000 You got to set fireside because none of this discussion 1:58:17.000 --> 1:58:20.520 I didn to do with fire. Thirty five percent of 1:58:20.520 --> 1:58:24.120 our employees had a work at a Washington office or 1:58:24.240 --> 1:58:30.839 regional office. That seems high because people in Washington regional 1:58:30.880 --> 1:58:34.520 offices make a lot more than people on the ground. 1:58:35.440 --> 1:58:42.080 It's well over fifty percent of our salary costs as 1:58:42.080 --> 1:58:46.000 an agency are not where we delivered this. It's not 1:58:46.040 --> 1:58:52.760 the mission delivery that alone. There's no company that can 1:58:52.800 --> 1:58:55.520 survive on those numbers. I mean service companies are different. 1:58:55.560 --> 1:58:57.160 But if you're producing something or if you have a 1:58:57.200 --> 1:59:01.080 service to deliver, I mean I know is really well. 1:59:01.280 --> 1:59:03.960 I know for a fact that if they put over 1:59:04.040 --> 1:59:09.320 fifty of their you know, veil resorts, our corporate office 1:59:09.360 --> 1:59:13.760 in Broomfield, it's on the mountain because that's where the 1:59:13.800 --> 1:59:17.040 money's made, that's where the mission is delivered. So there's 1:59:17.080 --> 1:59:20.920 a problem. I think I've said a couple of times 1:59:21.160 --> 1:59:23.840 we got upside down and is where our mission was? 1:59:23.920 --> 1:59:27.200 We just delivering the mission and all the things you 1:59:27.240 --> 1:59:30.280 want to protect from your constituents our communities are clean 1:59:30.320 --> 1:59:33.120 water and all that stuff that all happens on the 1:59:33.160 --> 1:59:36.760 ground for cheap now fuels projects and stuff are get 1:59:36.800 --> 1:59:40.200 expensive when you you know. The other thing I think 1:59:40.240 --> 1:59:43.200 you have to look at is big things. You know 1:59:43.240 --> 1:59:46.840 we have and again my colleagues would kill me. We 1:59:46.920 --> 1:59:50.560 have a huge research department in the force. VICE created 1:59:50.640 --> 1:59:54.960 because when the back then there was not a single 1:59:55.040 --> 1:59:58.200 university in the country that researched any natural resource or 1:59:58.240 --> 2:00:01.040 forest re issues. So we created we have a state 2:00:01.040 --> 2:00:05.600 in private division a whole thousands of people because there 2:00:05.600 --> 2:00:10.720 were no state foresters. Now every state in the country 2:00:10.760 --> 2:00:14.160 has a whole state forestry division, but yet those were 2:00:14.640 --> 2:00:21.280 legacied in over years and years, so between thirty it's 2:00:21.280 --> 2:00:24.320 just I just believe in is the people on the ground. 2:00:24.400 --> 2:00:26.680 And I'm biased because that's work I did. Do we 2:00:26.720 --> 2:00:30.959 need policy? People? Do we need you know? You know, cio, 2:00:31.760 --> 2:00:38.720 But that's the cheap part of the job. So I, 2:00:40.520 --> 2:00:42.880 you know, I don't know what's going to happen. You 2:00:42.880 --> 2:00:44.360 guys don't know what's going to happen. It's kind of 2:00:44.360 --> 2:00:47.320 crazy times in our country. But I always tell people 2:00:48.200 --> 2:00:51.760 public lands are not in the constitution. Nowhere in the 2:00:51.760 --> 2:00:55.440 constitution are they, and I and yet I believe it 2:00:55.520 --> 2:00:59.520 is one of the great experiments in democracy. No other 2:00:59.560 --> 2:01:01.400 country the world says, here's what we're gonna do. We're 2:01:01.400 --> 2:01:04.080 gonna take whatever seven percent or whatever the percentage of 2:01:04.080 --> 2:01:06.680 our country's land base. We're gonna put it in public 2:01:06.720 --> 2:01:12.480 trust manage for everyone, owned by everyone. And it what 2:01:12.560 --> 2:01:16.280 an experiment in democracy. And so far one hundred and 2:01:16.320 --> 2:01:19.520 twenty five years, it's we're doing all right. But I 2:01:19.680 --> 2:01:24.240 remind people it's not in the constitution. There's no guarantee 2:01:24.880 --> 2:01:29.520 that it can stay and so the endgame is stay involved, 2:01:29.720 --> 2:01:32.160 pay attention. I guess I'm not ready to light my 2:01:32.200 --> 2:01:33.800 hair and fire and say the public lands are going away. 2:01:33.840 --> 2:01:36.560 They're gonna sell them all. I'm going to pay attention now, 2:01:36.760 --> 2:01:39.040 obviously because my back. But I think your listener should 2:01:39.040 --> 2:01:41.360 pay attention. I think there are things in the system 2:01:41.400 --> 2:01:46.040 now that require, especially for hunters and anglers and people 2:01:46.080 --> 2:01:49.360 who enjoy it the way we do, pay attention. This 2:01:49.400 --> 2:01:53.720 is a time to pay attention, you know, get involved 2:01:53.760 --> 2:01:56.000 with that NEPA process a little more. Make sure your 2:01:56.080 --> 2:01:59.760 voices are heard, because there is no guarantee in the 2:02:00.000 --> 2:02:04.520 institution that this crazy experiment will continue. 2:02:06.800 --> 2:02:09.360 Thanks for coming on, man, pleasure to be here. What 2:02:09.400 --> 2:02:10.880 are your hobbies? What are you going to do now? 2:02:12.040 --> 2:02:18.080 Turkey hunting starts Saturday, So you know I love to 2:02:18.440 --> 2:02:21.840 hunt and fish and and get outside. 2:02:22.240 --> 2:02:25.040 You must stay where you're at in Colorado for a while. 2:02:25.480 --> 2:02:27.000 I mean you're sitting here right now because you're on 2:02:27.040 --> 2:02:27.760 a fishing. 2:02:27.560 --> 2:02:34.040 Tour, right yeah, and visit some friends tour. But yeah, 2:02:34.080 --> 2:02:37.920 my brothers and I you know, I'm from Wisconsin and 2:02:38.280 --> 2:02:41.840 uh and listening to you talk about how you grew 2:02:41.880 --> 2:02:45.760 up with your brothers identical. I mean right, Yeah, we 2:02:45.760 --> 2:02:48.160 were just across the pond from you, the Wisconsin side, 2:02:48.240 --> 2:02:51.080 and uh, we're building. We're almost done. We're building the 2:02:51.120 --> 2:02:54.720 cabin in the up Oh yeah, up in west of 2:02:54.760 --> 2:02:57.560 waters Meet. That's where we went as kids. That you know, 2:02:57.600 --> 2:03:00.640 there was with six kids in the cop salary. There 2:03:00.680 --> 2:03:04.880 was no Disneyland vacations. So yeah, we're just they're just 2:03:04.920 --> 2:03:07.560 about don I write the checks. I write checks to 2:03:07.560 --> 2:03:08.720 pay for things because they do. 2:03:08.880 --> 2:03:09.760 They do the work. 2:03:09.880 --> 2:03:12.160 Yeah, because they're there. I mean they're back there and 2:03:12.240 --> 2:03:15.560 so be doing that. And I don't know. I'm not 2:03:15.680 --> 2:03:19.560 ready to not be involved. I've gotten some calls about 2:03:19.560 --> 2:03:23.320 some work and we'll see. I'm gonna take two months 2:03:23.320 --> 2:03:28.280 to see what's out there. And then I'd love this 2:03:28.320 --> 2:03:30.400 stuff too much. I like to mix it up too much. 2:03:30.480 --> 2:03:34.560 And man, I well, just the fact that you're the 2:03:34.640 --> 2:03:39.760 fact that you're passionate about the forest, you're passionate about 2:03:39.800 --> 2:03:42.840 public lands, you put in a lot of years. Yeah, 2:03:42.920 --> 2:03:45.800 you have opinions. I can't vet whether all of your opinions. 2:03:45.840 --> 2:03:48.400 I mean, you know enough, you know more than I know, 2:03:48.480 --> 2:03:50.520 so I can't say that all your opinions are right 2:03:50.600 --> 2:03:50.960 or wrong. 2:03:51.080 --> 2:03:52.360 Or whatever, but. 2:03:54.000 --> 2:03:56.720 Just the fact that you care. I would sure hope 2:03:56.720 --> 2:04:01.120 that people that need to start the people that do 2:04:01.200 --> 2:04:03.320 need to make decisions about where money goes and what 2:04:03.360 --> 2:04:07.280 money is there. If I knew that they were reaching 2:04:07.320 --> 2:04:09.640 out to guys like you to get an opinion that 2:04:09.680 --> 2:04:12.800 they could give an honest way. Now that you're not 2:04:12.840 --> 2:04:14.520 there anymore, I would be like, well, that sounds like 2:04:14.520 --> 2:04:17.840 a good idea to me. So hopefully some conversations will 2:04:17.880 --> 2:04:21.160 happen for you, you know, where someone can say like, well, 2:04:21.160 --> 2:04:22.560 now I can tell you what I actually think, and 2:04:22.560 --> 2:04:24.360 here's what I think, right, and no one's going to 2:04:24.440 --> 2:04:26.680 fire me for it. 2:04:27.480 --> 2:04:28.040 Good feeling. 2:04:28.240 --> 2:04:30.680 Yeah, you know, we always have a hard time having 2:04:30.720 --> 2:04:33.200 agency people on the show because they're so paranoid. But 2:04:33.200 --> 2:04:36.080 it's nice to have the Poe like you're hearing a 2:04:36.080 --> 2:04:37.280 post paranoid sense. 2:04:37.400 --> 2:04:39.480 Yeah. Well, I would have come on and said most 2:04:39.480 --> 2:04:42.400 of this while I was working. That's what I got 2:04:42.400 --> 2:04:46.560 my reputation for, although I would have got in trouble, 2:04:46.600 --> 2:04:50.920 but you know, not fired. But I don't think what 2:04:50.560 --> 2:04:52.560 I had to say was all that controversial. 2:04:52.600 --> 2:04:53.560 You're not saying it, You're not. 2:04:54.360 --> 2:04:57.360 I'm not hacking on anyone. I just I think you know. 2:04:57.360 --> 2:04:59.320 There's changes coming, and some of them are good, some 2:04:59.360 --> 2:05:01.320 of them. I don't be here far. 2:05:02.200 --> 2:05:04.600 Yeah, I want to talk to the guys that are 2:05:04.720 --> 2:05:12.080 like that recognize a reality and recognize how can we 2:05:12.120 --> 2:05:14.480 do this in the in the best way possible and 2:05:14.560 --> 2:05:17.919 not in ways that are kind of like ham handed 2:05:19.240 --> 2:05:22.280 knee jerk reactions. So thanks man, you bet. 2:05:22.360 --> 2:05:23.160 It's good to be here. 2:05:23.560 --> 2:05:24.880 Appreciate it, Thanks for coming on. 2:05:25.320 --> 2:05:25.920 Thanks Scott,