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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast. You can't

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Speaker 1: predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,

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Speaker 1: or scouting for el, First Light has performance apparel to

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Speaker 1: support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. F I R S T l

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Speaker 1: I t E dot com. Joined today by Scott Fitzwilliams.

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Speaker 1: Scott is here for very important sorry, a very important

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Speaker 1: that port and a very important discussion about our public lands,

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Speaker 1: our US National Forest System. Scott got on our radar,

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Speaker 1: Yes it was well. Here, I'll tell you the exact date.

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Speaker 1: Scott got at our radar in late February twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five when in our community, in our circle, there was

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Speaker 1: circulated a headline White River Forest Supervisor Scott Fitzwilliams resigns

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Speaker 1: amid slashing of agency workforce. Then the follow up sentence.

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Speaker 1: Fitzwilliams guided the two point three million acre forests for

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Speaker 1: fifteen years, helping manage soaring visitation and an annual one

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Speaker 1: point six billion dollar impact in Colorado. The most trafficked

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Speaker 1: forest in the country. Spanning two point three million acres,

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Speaker 1: the White River National Forest has eleven major ski areas,

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Speaker 1: eight wilderness areas, four reservoirs. Regularly hosts more than seventeen

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Speaker 1: million visitors a year. The forest supports more than twenty

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Speaker 1: two thousand jobs with forest dependent workers in its communities,

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Speaker 1: including Aspen, Breckenridge, Carbondale, Eagle, Glenwood Springs, Meeker, Rifle, and Veil,

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Speaker 1: earning nine hundred and sixty million years. According to the

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Speaker 1: Forest Service economic analysis of its top one hundred and

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Speaker 1: eleven properties, the term I'm not hip on but properties.

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Speaker 1: The Forest's annual impact of one point six billion dollars

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Speaker 1: of financial activity in its communities ranks as the highest

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Speaker 1: in the agency. And the gentleman we have here joining

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Speaker 1: us today was prompted to leave that post at the

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Speaker 1: age of sixty based on some of the things that

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Speaker 1: are going on right now with attack on federal land

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Speaker 1: management agencies. So we're going to talk about that story.

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Speaker 1: But first, welcome Scott.

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Speaker 2: Good to be here. Uh.

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Speaker 1: First, cal wanted to say something.

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Speaker 3: Oh, well, you know, it's customary on this this here

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Speaker 3: podcast and we talk about other things and rarely do

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Speaker 3: we even introduce our guests or acknowledge their existence during

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Speaker 3: that time, so ahead of schedule on that, But on

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Speaker 3: the other things topic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the Newsy part, the people write in like, hey,

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Speaker 1: when you do the Newsy thing up front, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I'll be like, that's a great name for this,

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Speaker 1: the Newsy part. Yeah, No, they're I'm not afraid to

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Speaker 1: write with that. This this, this is what you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: matters a lot to me because this is like a

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Speaker 1: in many states, this is a thing that a lot

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Speaker 1: of hunters and anglers rely on. And I'll I'll leave

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Speaker 1: off a version of it, not leave off, but I'll

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Speaker 1: mention too, a version of it is in some states

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Speaker 1: all water trappers. Yeah, Like it's how they conduct their

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Speaker 1: It's how they conduct their business.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Is I mean there's a version of this that

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Speaker 3: is that is like class warfare almost right. So, I

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Speaker 3: mean this is one of the most accessible ways to

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Speaker 3: get out and recreate for the vast majority of US.

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Speaker 3: North Carolina Senate Bill two twenty, I think it got

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Speaker 3: heard yesterday. But there's always you always have a dog

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Speaker 3: in the fight. So North Carolina Senate Bill to twenty,

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Speaker 3: Section four, specifically if it were to pass, it would

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Speaker 3: become illegal to launch a vessel and this is primarily kayaks, canoes,

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Speaker 3: small vessels off of the public road right of ways,

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Speaker 3: meaning that certainly in a lot of states, your your

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Speaker 3: public roads have an easemnt. It's like shoulder to shoulder

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Speaker 3: where you can park, and if public ground abuts that shoulder,

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Speaker 3: it's it's legal access to that public ground or in

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Speaker 3: this case, public water. So you would you would be

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Speaker 3: charged with I think a class four misdemeanor in the

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Speaker 3: state of North Carolina if this were where to go through.

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Speaker 3: As Steve pointed out, if you are a trapper, this

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Speaker 3: is very important, but if you're even a large water angler,

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Speaker 3: this would eliminate a lot of access to water, and

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Speaker 3: it would in a lot of places become prohibitive to

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Speaker 3: go go fishing unless you have access to a larger,

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Speaker 3: larger boat.

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Speaker 1: So let's be frank, it's a it's a war on

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Speaker 1: high schoolers and college kids. How else they supposed to

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Speaker 1: get in the water.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, So all those.

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Speaker 1: Beage access in this area. You go like cruising out

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Speaker 1: north of town, west of town, north northwest of town,

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Speaker 1: every bridge absolutely in the summer, you can't go to

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Speaker 1: any bridge without some college kid climbing in the water,

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Speaker 1: and I well, I mean, I know it's a different state,

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Speaker 1: but this is like a fight that gets fought. This

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Speaker 1: is a fight that gets fought like access, stream access.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's it's, uh, the same plot. Now what

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Speaker 1: am I trying to say here? I'm trying to make

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Speaker 1: an analogy the same issue. It just gets fought in

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Speaker 1: like little different micro waves.

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Speaker 4: So this isn't just stream access. This could be a

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Speaker 4: lake upon like.

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Speaker 1: Any yeah, yeah, but I mean like it's it's I

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Speaker 1: don't know the particulars here, but it's usually coming like this.

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Speaker 1: It's it's people have there's some dude in Neon's riverfront

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Speaker 1: property or he owns lakefront property, and there's nothing that

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Speaker 1: burns his ass more than looking out the window and

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Speaker 1: here comes some dirt bag floating by yep, cash and fish,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, how in the world could it be?

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Speaker 1: How could it possibly be that I own this? In

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Speaker 1: some cases, I own both sides, and I got to

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Speaker 1: wake up to some dirt bag fishing yep, I mean

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Speaker 1: like fish how And then they get on the phone

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Speaker 1: and whatever.

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Speaker 4: Every other day there's like a video that shows up

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Speaker 4: some landowners screaming at someone for being in the water

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Speaker 4: that they're legally able to be in, you know.

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Speaker 1: Every day. Yeah, so it's always that. It's like this

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Speaker 1: is like a public they're putting it as a public

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Speaker 1: safety issue. It's not. This is someone talking about there,

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Speaker 1: they're they're talking about something that's not what they're talking about.

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Speaker 4: Does the person that proposed this bill own some some land,

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Speaker 4: some waterfront land.

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Speaker 1: Someone someone has his ear.

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Speaker 3: Whoever introduced this bill may be friendly with some of

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Speaker 3: those folks.

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Speaker 1: You can picture the phone call. He's like, they're all

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Speaker 1: in the I can't figure it out. When I bought

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Speaker 1: this place, I thought, but there's all these kids floating by,

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Speaker 1: they're parked up and down the road. Hell, someone's going

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Speaker 1: to get hit.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: So this is in fact, yes.

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Speaker 1: Someone's gonna get hit. That's the problem.

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Speaker 3: You know, this is such an established form of access

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Speaker 3: in use in in North Carolina. There's guide books and

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Speaker 3: maps of where it is, you know, good places to launch,

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Speaker 3: safe places to park, et cetera. So this is not

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Speaker 3: like a brand new thing. All of a sudden, people

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Speaker 3: started showing up to you know, that dirt baggy spot

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Speaker 3: that I have to drive past in order to get

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Speaker 3: to my pay to play boat launch for my big boat.

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Speaker 2: And that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's exactly what it is. So people need

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Speaker 3: to be aware. This North Carolina Senate Bill two twenty,

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Speaker 3: specifically section four, would turn you in to a misdemeanor.

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Speaker 4: Does this thing contrast with like an existing access law

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Speaker 4: in North Carolina, like a high water mark? Yeah, public

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Speaker 4: domain kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, oddly enough, it wouldn't touch the

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Speaker 3: water access in the state of North Carolina, their water

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Speaker 3: access law, but it would just say as long as

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Speaker 3: you try to do it from here to here, it's

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Speaker 3: illegal now and you're you're going to get a misdemeanor.

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Speaker 3: One of the folks who wrote in on this sums

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Speaker 3: it up pretty well, says North Carolina has had a

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Speaker 3: long history of excellent water access and has a constitutional

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Speaker 3: right to use traditional methods to hunt fish and trap game.

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Speaker 3: This bill seems to be in violation of that. So amen, yep,

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Speaker 3: that's one of the good ones.

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Speaker 1: It's a war on college kids.

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Speaker 3: It is for fishing.

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Speaker 1: You know. I was like, I try not to do this,

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Speaker 1: but now and then I'll catch myself just like looking

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Speaker 1: through like stuff on social media, you know, like never

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Speaker 1: leaves me where I want to be mentally, No, But

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Speaker 1: this guy's got a video. It's so funny. It's like,

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Speaker 1: there's this dude fishing. He's like, you tell, he's in

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Speaker 1: a kayak or something and he's got he's got one

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Speaker 1: of those like fishing go pro. So it's not aiming.

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Speaker 1: It's aiming at him fishing, but it's not aiming at

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Speaker 1: what's going what's going on around him. But you can

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Speaker 1: see that he's like at a bridge and he says,

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Speaker 1: he goes, hey buddy, you tell he's like addressing someone.

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Speaker 1: Hey buddy, I'm not trying to come after you on this,

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Speaker 1: but just like, let me give you a little life advice.

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Speaker 1: If someone's fishing a hole, you don't want to come

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Speaker 1: in and start fishing it. And often the distance your.

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Speaker 2: Like a little kid.

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Speaker 1: So that uh, oh, well, you know what. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: gonna do this. But now since we're on legislation.

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Speaker 5: No wonder they're worrying against those college kids. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 5: rude bastards. No, this was a little kid's voice.

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Speaker 1: Uh. One more piece of legislation. Peace years ago. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember what the hell year it was California made,

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Speaker 1: in my view, an enormous mistake when they banned mountain

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Speaker 1: lion hunting. They banned lion hunting with dogs, they banned

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Speaker 1: mountain lion hunting. Now in California, thanks to this wisdom,

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Speaker 1: they now Yeah, one of the one of the funniest

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Speaker 1: things about the lion banning in California. I might I

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Speaker 1: might be fudging my numbers a little bit, but they're

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Speaker 1: basically this. It was like hunters used to kill about

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Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty mountain lions a year in California.

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Speaker 1: Take a wild stab at about how many mountain lions

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Speaker 1: get killed every year now by animal damage control specialists

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Speaker 1: more a. Yeah, it was like they were like, okay,

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Speaker 1: dudes by licenses and they hunt lions. That's get rid

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Speaker 1: of that. And then we'll start paying people to kill

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Speaker 1: those lines and put them in the dumpster.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it's created where there's a problem now where And

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Speaker 1: like I don't want to necessarily call it, I want

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Speaker 1: to choose my words carefully. It has been observed in

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Speaker 1: California that that man, I hate to say this because

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Speaker 1: I don't want to like feed into I don't want

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Speaker 1: to you know, I don't want to do that thing

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Speaker 1: where you're trying to get people to agree with you,

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Speaker 1: and so you create like a false narrative. It has

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Speaker 1: been observed by some people who are like pretty good

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Speaker 1: on mountain lions and and pretty good on human wildlife interactions.

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Speaker 1: It has been observed that in the decades since then,

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Speaker 1: there has been less pressure on lions to avoid the

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Speaker 1: kind of human lion interface. Really good biologists, really good

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Speaker 1: line experts, dudes that we know, uh Bart George, No,

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Speaker 1: Bruce Bart, Yeah, Bruce's hunt these bruces in Idahoa, Washington State.

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Speaker 1: Bruces in Washington State. Yeah, Okay, whole career and chase

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Speaker 1: the moulines. And he has observed that over the years

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Speaker 1: in these states where they've put like heavy restrictions or

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Speaker 1: band lion hunting, you see an increase in human lion

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Speaker 1: conflicts because they just don't the lions just don't have

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Speaker 1: a perception of like trouble. They don't associate humans with trouble.

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Speaker 1: We've had on a researcher Bart George is even working

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Speaker 1: on a project where they'll go out and they'll get

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Speaker 1: a they'll get a collar on a mountain lion that's

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Speaker 1: causing trouble like killing pets, killing livestock, whatever. They'll get

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Speaker 1: a collar on it and they'll see, can we train

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Speaker 1: this lion to avoid people by Because it's wearing a collar,

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Speaker 1: we know right where it is. So we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: and play the sound of human voices. When he was

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Speaker 1: doing this project, he would use this podcast. He would

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Speaker 1: play this podcast to the lions and monitor how close

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Speaker 1: can I get to the lion before the lion will move,

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Speaker 1: And at times he would get fifteen feet thirty feet

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Speaker 1: from the lion playing human voices before the lion moves.

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Speaker 1: Then they put dogs on it and treat the lion

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Speaker 1: and mess with it. That's not the word he uses,

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Speaker 1: but they mess with it. They hair assed.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we did a whole episode on it, Living with lions.

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Speaker 1: Living with lions. They worry it, that's what they say.

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Speaker 1: In Europe. They would worry the lion with dogs. And

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Speaker 1: then you let some time go by, and then you

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Speaker 1: come and play human voices to the lion, and the

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Speaker 1: lion like, ah shit, these guys comes again. These people

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Speaker 1: are trouble and he wants to leave.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: Bart had found some positive reinforcement that some level of

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Speaker 1: human pressure some level of inconvenience around humans, and the

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Speaker 1: use of dogs pushes lions away and makes them kind

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Speaker 1: of like less inclined to come to you human voices.

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Speaker 1: We had on some guys on the show. We had

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Speaker 1: Wyatt Brooks on the show, and Wyatt Brooks was hunting

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Speaker 1: shed hunting hunting shed Antler's with his brother Taylor, and

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Speaker 1: his brother Taylor was killed by a mountain lion in

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Speaker 1: el Dorado County, California, and those guys came on the show.

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Speaker 1: Or sorry, Taylor who's passed away obviously did not, but

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Speaker 1: Wyatt came on the show to talk about Taylor's death.

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Speaker 1: In response to this, Senator Marie Alvarado Gill has introduced

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Speaker 1: a bill SB eighteen, which she views would enhance public

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Speaker 1: safety and reduced loss of livestock by establishing a five

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Speaker 1: year pilot program in Eldorado County, during which permitted houndsman

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Speaker 1: with trained hounds may Hayes' problem mountain lions away from

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Speaker 1: areas where they posed a threat to public safety, livestock

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Speaker 1: or pets. I like that's great, I applauded. I don't

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Speaker 1: mean to trivialize it.

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Speaker 2: I just.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's a step in the right direction, I

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Speaker 1: would be so much happier. And I don't I know

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Speaker 1: it would take like an act of God, meaning an

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Speaker 1: act of Congress to undo the mountain lion hunting band,

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Speaker 1: but I think that that's what needs to happen in California.

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Speaker 4: The thing is that that I find with that might

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Speaker 4: happen with this is the anti hunting folks, the animal

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Speaker 4: rights activists would probably look at this as a negative,

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Speaker 4: like it's bad to go hace those lions, and they

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Speaker 4: should be looking at it, you know, like, don't go

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Speaker 4: bother those lions, just don't harass them with dogs, and

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Speaker 4: they should be all for it because it's probably gonna

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Speaker 4: save some lions lives.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, my view on it and reluctance to dig

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Speaker 1: into it too much, not reluctant to dig into but

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Speaker 1: like choosing my words carefully is I like, I don't

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Speaker 1: think of mountain lions like as a negative, right, But

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Speaker 1: if I saw a mountainlin and I'd be like cool.

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Speaker 1: When we have bears coming in, I like encourage my

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Speaker 1: neighbors to not tattletale on them because I'm like, if

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Speaker 1: you tattletale on that bear, it's dead. They're not going

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Speaker 1: to spend a bunch of money and have some guys

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Speaker 1: spend two days moving that bear two hundred miles away

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Speaker 1: so we can walk back here.

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Speaker 3: I believe I told your wife one time. I'm like, Katie, Uh,

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Speaker 3: you didn't pull the trigger, but you loaded the gun.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: I'm always like, can't don't tattletale on bears, because if, like,

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Speaker 1: if one person tattletales, they kind of like, we'll keep

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Speaker 1: an eye on it. When ten people tattletale a bears

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Speaker 1: dead bear.

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Speaker 4: When I lived in Eagle, Colorado, we're part of you know,

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Speaker 4: near the White River National Forest. Occasionally we would get

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Speaker 4: reverse nine one one calls saying there's.

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Speaker 1: A mountain lion in your neighborhood.

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Speaker 4: No way, and usually in like late winter, and so

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Speaker 4: like you know that lion's on the hit list, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So in my choose my words carefully, thing is

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Speaker 1: I look at it like I like, like I look

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Speaker 1: at it as a regulated mountain lion hunting under quota

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Speaker 1: systems and bag limits and seasons is in no way

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Speaker 1: detrimental to having a healthy population of lions.

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Speaker 6: Uh.

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Speaker 1: I think it was wrong. It was ill advised to

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Speaker 1: ban lion hunting, and I look at this as a

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Speaker 1: positive because it's like a step in the right direction hopefully,

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Speaker 1: But I just can't act like I'm glad about it

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Speaker 1: because I'm super scared allions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Steve's trying not to like use the the

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Speaker 3: fear argument. There's I don't know if there's there's been

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Speaker 3: a study that like definitively proves hunting reduces wildlife conflict.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, it's like, well, areas that

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Speaker 3: don't have black bears don't have black bear conflict, that

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Speaker 3: don't have lands, don't have land conflict.

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Speaker 4: I was doing some research for project Steve and I

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Speaker 4: are working on, and it was regarding the black bear

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Speaker 4: situation in New Jersey when what was his name, Bill Murphy?

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Speaker 4: Murphy Murphy outlawed essentially, like first it was he outlauded

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Speaker 4: on state and then he let the management plan expire,

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Speaker 4: so bear hunting became completely illegal in New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: For com and then they called it be a miakopa.

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Speaker 4: Yeah he got he listened to people who were real

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Speaker 4: pissed off.

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Speaker 2: Is that what you mean?

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Speaker 1: No, he said, I was wrong.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But anyway, they did a study during that time

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Speaker 4: frame of human bear conflicts.

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Speaker 2: And and you.

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Speaker 4: Said, there's no like study that's been done on increased conflict.

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Speaker 4: But it was something like two and thirty seven percent

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Speaker 4: increase and bears killing pets, bears breaking in the cars,

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Speaker 4: you know, all the thing. So it was like the

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Speaker 4: outlawed hunting and that stuff shot through the roof.

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Speaker 2: So you know what you will.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, sure anybody could set up their own little experiment,

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Speaker 1: have a garden, and then have a bunch of rabbits

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Speaker 1: eat in the garden, and then do a couple of

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Speaker 1: high profile killings of some of those rabbits, and you

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Speaker 1: will see the other rabbits are like, jeez, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to the middle of the night now, not doing that

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Speaker 1: in the morning anymore.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's all right, Scott. Tell me about your career, man,

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Speaker 1: how'd you wind up? Like, how'd you wind up there?

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Speaker 1: How'd you wind up as the White River Forest Supervisor?

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Speaker 1: What was your path?

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's a long path, you know. I grew up

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Speaker 2: in Wisconsin and uh ended up in Colorado for graduate

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Speaker 2: school and tripped into an internship with a place called

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Speaker 2: the fore Service. I knew nothing about I knew. The

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Speaker 2: difference was you couldn't hunt in parks and you could

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Speaker 2: hunt on the forest. That's what I knew the difference.

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Speaker 2: And so, uh started my career and bounced all over

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Speaker 2: the country. I think I worked in seven states. I

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Speaker 2: was in Cody, Wyoming, Jackson, Wyoming, Dickinson, North Dakota. I

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Speaker 2: was on the National Grasslands out there. And then I

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Speaker 2: went to Sitka, Alaska for five.

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Speaker 1: Years really yeah, for the Forest Service, and that was

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Speaker 1: on Tongos, Yeah, working on tongas on the Tongus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was Jim Bachell's boss. Really, you know you

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Speaker 2: guys had man, Yeah, yeah, And uh, then I went

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Speaker 2: to Oregon for a few years and Eugene and then

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Speaker 2: ended up in back in Glenwood Springs on the White River.

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Speaker 2: So I started as an intern in Colorado and ended

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Speaker 2: up finishing my career.

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Speaker 4: And what kind of work we were you doing like

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Speaker 4: throughout those you.

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Speaker 2: Know I started really my originally I started kind of

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Speaker 2: the public affairs and legislative affairs world for a few years,

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Speaker 2: and then uh then I became a line off district

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Speaker 2: ranger and then I was a Recreation Wilderness Minerals land

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Speaker 2: staff on the Tonguus. That's what I worked on that.

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Speaker 2: That's why Jim worked for me. And then uh, because

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Speaker 2: he's a geology's jelogist. Yeah and so and then I

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Speaker 2: was I've been a line officer, you know, either a

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Speaker 2: district granger, deputy for supervisor, for supervisor. So it's been great.

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Speaker 2: I mean to work in so many incredible places, is

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm so grateful for this career. It's been unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain for folks what is the scope of

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Speaker 1: a force supervisor? And then if you could talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how that could get more and more

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Speaker 1: complex as you enter into a forest like the White

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Speaker 1: River forest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the way the agencies set up we we

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Speaker 2: they give line officer or delegated authority for a chunk

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Speaker 2: of land and in case of a forest, a forest

385
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Speaker 2: depends where it is, you know, and on the Tongus

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Speaker 2: it's seventeen million acres or the White Rivers two and

387
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Speaker 2: a half, and you know in the east there smaller force.

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Speaker 2: And basically you have all responsibilities for that piece of ground.

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Speaker 2: I always told people it's toilets, the targets and everything

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Speaker 2: in between. You you're responsible for everything, and so uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're responsible for the money, you know, the budget,

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Speaker 2: the targets, the accomplishments, the people and and but these

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Speaker 2: jobs now, you know, in these line officer jobs, they're

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Speaker 2: they're really evolved into you know, part of a community.

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Speaker 2: You've got to be the the you know, you're the name,

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Speaker 2: you know, the face of the agency in that community.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, and as we collaborate and we

398
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Speaker 2: work together, it's so you know, it can get complex

399
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Speaker 2: because you're the one that signs the decision for that

400
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Speaker 2: timber sale or that new trail or you know, closing

401
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Speaker 2: that trail and and your name's on it, and so.

402
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Speaker 3: Or you may have had like an up on the

403
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Speaker 3: tongs Oil and gas or well the gre industry.

404
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 2: Greene Creek Mine and the Kensington Mine opink do you know, Yeah,

405
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: those are huge mines, and so you know, and I

406
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Speaker 2: think like we all know, I mean, everyone loves this

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Speaker 2: public land and wants to see it manage a certain way,

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Speaker 2: and so it gets a little harder and harder as

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Speaker 2: people just you know, a certain way.

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Speaker 3: My way I want it done for hunting and fishing specifically.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know Gifford Pitcher who started the Force

412
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Speaker 2: over Sea and Teddy Roosevelt back in nineteen oh five,

413
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Speaker 2: and I still believe in this, and I hope as

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Speaker 2: the restructuring that has taking place, this doesn't go away.

415
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Speaker 2: They purposely set it up where it was very decentralized.

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Speaker 2: We want the decision making where the communities are. We

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Speaker 2: want the decision making where the you know, where it

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00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 2: affects you know how, where it affects people. And that

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Speaker 2: has been That's why I love the job. Is I

420
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 2: rarely in all the years got told you need to

421
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Speaker 2: do this on this project from a boss or from above.

422
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Speaker 2: And that's the way Pincho and Roosevelt wanted it and

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Speaker 2: wanted it decentralized on the ground.

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Speaker 4: Disregarding what's happened in the last couple of months, Was

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Speaker 4: that consistent from like that ability to be decentralized? Was

426
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Speaker 4: that consistent from like one administration to the next.

427
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean ebbs and flows in different emphasis. That's

428
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Speaker 2: always been the case. And but we've kind of always

429
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Speaker 2: navigated through that and and save a few, there's always

430
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Speaker 2: been a few things where it's been top down. Some

431
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Speaker 2: of the I don't know how many revisions of the

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Speaker 2: Tonguess Forest plant.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 2: Oftentimes that became extremely politicized, and Washington kind of ran

435
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Speaker 2: that towards some undersecretary.

436
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, in that case, it fell into like a administrations

437
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: one administration would a major plan into a fact in

438
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: another administration and call it into question, right, and you

439
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: just probably got to roll with.

440
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: That, right absolutely. And you know our laws National Force

441
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: Management Act and on the on the BLM side, FLIPMA,

442
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: they're set up to put a ten fifteen twenty year

443
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: plans together, a force plan that's supposed to take some

444
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: of that level some of that. It's like, Okay, here's

445
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: how we're going to do it for the next fifteen years.

446
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 2: And it's worked well, and I still have hopes it's

447
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: going to work well, but certainly under you know what

448
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: current restructuring, I'm not sure. I just hope we maintain

449
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 2: that decentralized management and decision making because I think Pincher

450
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: and Roosevelt had it right two in nineteen oh five,

451
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 2: and I think it still applies today. It's just harder

452
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: because of more people.

453
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: As a forest supervisor, you got to wake up every day,

454
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: someone has to be pissed at you pretty much. Yeah,

455
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 1: can you lay out a little bit and you can

456
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: keep it. You can keep it true to Colorado and

457
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: we can leave tongus in the rearview mirror for a minute.

458
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: But can you can you explain a little bit like

459
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: the push and pull? Yeah, I mean, it's got to

460
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: be like you got just to give you a sense

461
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: of what I'm picturing. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

462
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it's gotta be like a lot of fire conversation,

463
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: cattle conversation, logging conversation, access kind of preservation conversations, huge

464
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: conversations around wildlife, dealing with state Game agency, like like

465
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: who is trying to get a hold of you, you know,

466
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: throughout the year right to tell you how you ought

467
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: to be doing things.

468
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: All of the above, Steve, it's it ebbs and flows,

469
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 2: a little bit, vegetation management, you know, timber harvest, fuels

470
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: projects are all can always be a pinch point for people,

471
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: you know people, and certainly in Montana it's you know,

472
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 2: it's Montana in this region is one of the most

473
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: litigated regions as far as fuels projects and timber sales

474
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: and stuff. You know, it's it's the contrast of leave

475
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: it alone, preservation first, conservation use you know, that's whatever

476
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: it is it doesn't matter if it's cattle, if it

477
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if it's you know, logging mining. People just

478
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: have visions of what their national force should look like

479
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: and don't want to change. It's getting harder because so

480
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: many people are moving from places that they think it's

481
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: a national park. Yeah, I mean we've had what are

482
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: you doing cutting trees? Well, we've been doing it since

483
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: nineteen oh five. I mean it's part of our mission.

484
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: It's in legislation requiring us to do that. And the

485
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: toughest ones these days, especially in places like Vale and

486
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: Aspen and Summit County and is individual landowners with the

487
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: easement or a lands issue or need something. They're tough

488
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 2: because they're generally rich.

489
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: And you mean you're.

490
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 4: Talking like second homeowners that butt up against exactly.

491
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot that's that's been really challenging over

492
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 2: the years. But it's all challenging, but it's all about, like, help.

493
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: Help people understand what you're talking about. I have a

494
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: sense of what you're talking about, but say people that

495
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: aren't really that don't follow the politics.

496
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: Of Yeah, as as more and more people move into

497
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: the urban interface, you know, the forested lands, a lot

498
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 2: of it. They have to get an easement from the

499
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: for service to put a driveway in, or to put

500
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: a power lion in, or to or they have a

501
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: crappy survey and they ended up building part of their house,

502
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: which happens all the time on National Force System lands.

503
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: And then and then we say, hey, you got to

504
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: move your house. Or there's this thing called the Small

505
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 2: Tracks Act that can purchase the land if if if

506
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: it was proven it was done accidentally, you know, bad

507
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: survey or something. So so as more and more people

508
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: coming into these areas are building these homes in the

509
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: forest and up in the hills, you know, they require

510
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 2: all these easements and right aways and permits and things

511
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: like that. It's one or two people that consume a

512
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: tremendous amount of time and and they just don't understand.

513
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: Because they're lawyered up, totally lawyered up.

514
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: Ah and and they you know, and they know people, Well,

515
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: I'm gonna call so and so so that that's how

516
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: that that bugs me because it's not a you know,

517
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: collective society wide discussion of how we should manage a

518
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: landscape or forest. It's just one dude with a house.

519
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: And yet my staff is spending you know, three days

520
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: a week working on that you know project, So got it.

521
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 4: How was it dealing with the big ski industry corporations

522
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 4: because like you're, you're you're in a posi, you are

523
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 4: in a position where a lot of national forest managers

524
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 4: aren't you know, dealing with so much of that.

525
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's they're big companies and and and but most

526
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: of the ski areas have been permitted. I think it

527
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: would have been harder when they were permitting new ski ariers.

528
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: You know. Now it was more about can they do

529
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: this expansion, can they replace this lift or build this

530
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: new restaurant. It's still tough. I mean those numbers you

531
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: talked about at the beginning, the twenty two thousand employees,

532
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 2: and you know, one point six billion dollar contribution to GDP.

533
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: Most of it's from that industry. I mean they employ

534
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: a lot of people and pour a lot of money.

535
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: But it's challenging because you look around the West and

536
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: where we have these resort communities, it's completely changed. I mean,

537
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: nobody could afford to live there. You know, it's crowded,

538
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: it's expensive, it's you know, seventy percent of the homes

539
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: for example, in Summit County where Breckenridge and a Basin

540
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 2: and Keystone are seventy percent of the homes are second

541
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: home owners.

542
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 5: Seventy seven right, Well.

543
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: So no one can afford to live there, and so

544
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: then you struggle with like all these mountain top I'm

545
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: dealing with with affordable housing and.

546
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 3: Those ski areas too, Like they'll tell you that they

547
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: can't exist without a summer program as well. So it's

548
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: not just in the winter when there's a ton of

549
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: snow and the animals aren't visible.

550
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, we permitted the first at on Veil Mountain, the

551
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: first summer uses. The Congress passed legislation to allow them

552
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: to do things like ziplines and you know, alpine coasters

553
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: and things like that, and we were the first force

554
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: to do that. The part about our force is the

555
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: White Rivers, all the big resorts are there, and so

556
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: we're always first in experimenting with whatever it might be.

557
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: But you know, they're a good partner and they there.

558
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: You know, I like working with innovative creative industries, and

559
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 2: they're one. You know, they're always looking at the next

560
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: best thing. And but you know, I think we have

561
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: to step back and realize Okay, the impacts are real.

562
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: It's only four thousand acres of permitted land that they

563
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: have a you know, their permits on that.

564
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: They actually all total.

565
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: Well, let no, on the White River, it's only forty

566
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: thousand so so of toll. I'm sorry, But say one resort,

567
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: say a resort like Snow Mass, I think it's about

568
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: four thousand acres under permit. Forty thousand acres of of

569
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: land is under permit and skiers on the White River

570
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: not out of two point three and a half million.

571
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: That's not a huge amount. But the impact is way

572
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: past that, you know, because it just brings people and

573
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: lots of them. And so I think we've got I

574
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: think that's something when in the future we're gonna have

575
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: to really start to recognize as these resort towns and

576
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: these you know, kind of high end tourism places, we're

577
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 2: going to have to manage that in some way that

578
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: at least realize that the effects are way beyond the

579
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: resort or whatever.

580
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 3: Oh, just the you know, all these towns like that

581
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 3: is the industry there. It's support the ski areas over

582
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 3: anything else. And when I used to go to meetings

583
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: and the ski town that I lived in. It was

584
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 3: just amazing, Like the the piddly stuff that the community

585
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 3: would get involved in, like horseshit on mountain bike trails

586
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 3: that were actually just game trails that uh people started

587
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 3: riding mountain bikes on, and the like amount of noise

588
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 3: pollution the mountain would put off during non ski season

589
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 3: times of year, right that. I mean, if you got

590
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: up at elevation where they were doing the work, you

591
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 3: could hear almost conversations a lot of the times from

592
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: miles away. The trash associated any same too, you know,

593
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: that's you know, you goes hike the ski lift lines

594
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 3: you know during non ski season and the amount of

595
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: shit underneath the chairlifts. It's just great. And you know

596
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 3: they do like cleanups and stuff, but I mean there's

597
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 3: so much stuff.

598
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

599
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 5: How much does it cost for a ski area to permit,

600
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 5: say four thousand acres? Like is it an annual thing?

601
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really complicated formula that I can't explain.

602
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: But it's based on the revenue you derive from activities

603
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 2: on national force. So the lift is on national forests,

604
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: restaurants on National force obviously a permit you know, the pass,

605
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: so it's you know on our forest, which was by

606
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: far the most. It was seventy sixty five percent of

607
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: the entire nation's fees collection. We collected about twenty eight

608
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 2: million dollars from the eleven resorts. Wow. Yeah, is a

609
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 2: nation it like a profit shared?

610
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: Does it not work as a profit share. It's like

611
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: a revenue share.

612
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: No, it's just like a permit. I mean, just like

613
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: a grazing permit.

614
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: They pay No, but you said that they pay relative revenue.

615
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

616
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: No, it's just really their relative tanks. If their visitation tanks.

617
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 2: They'll pay us less money. Okay, yeah, yeah, exactly, there's

618
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: a minimum obviously, but their businesses aren't tanking of late anyway.

619
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: So nationwide we collect about thirty five million dollars off

620
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 2: of ski areas in the country. Here's the little catch

621
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: is not one penny of that comes back to the

622
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: to the forest that it was. It is the only

623
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: thing we permit that no money comes back to the

624
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 2: local forest. And uh hmm. There's been a act in

625
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:45,479
Speaker 2: Congress called the Shred Act that has that has uh yeah,

626
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: I forget how what an X ski area, but anyway.

627
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: That was whatever it stood for, it was an afterthought.

628
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely they figure out, but it would it would return

629
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 2: a good portion of the money back to where it

630
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 2: came from, which I've been advocating for because they there's

631
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: a lot of work not just associated with the resorts

632
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: but all the people that come with it.

633
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: Well, how the hell did that get pulled out of

634
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: How did that get pulled out of the general system?

635
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: If you do like like timber harvest cattle leases, you

636
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 1: get some of the revenue. But how did skiing sit

637
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: in a different landscape when back.

638
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: In the nineties when it used to be outfittering god

639
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: fees used to go to the US Treasury. Okay, campgoground

640
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: fees went to the US Treasury.

641
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: It all went to So there was example, then there.

642
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: Was what was called the feed Demo program where we

643
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 2: got to keep all those fees. Now we get to

644
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 2: keep all the outfitter fees and all the campground fees

645
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 2: and all everything. And then they looked at skiers and

646
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 2: they specifically looked at the White River Forest and said,

647
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: we're not given that one forest twenty eight million dollars.

648
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 2: So that's basically how it got got it. It's just

649
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: too much jingle, too much jingle in one place, and

650
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 2: so now there's a way they can spread it out.

651
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 2: But now because of the budget. It there's a term

652
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,479
Speaker 2: in the in Congress, the Legislative Congress and the budget bills,

653
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: is called scoring. And it's like golf. And I know

654
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 2: how much you like golf too, Steve, you don't want

655
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: to score. It's the Office of Management Budget gives a

656
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 2: piece of legislation a score, and it's a financial score,

657
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: and the more you score, the less chances has So

658
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 2: in that case, I'm sorry, I'm not following. It's it's

659
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: it's a it's a budget's score and they would look

660
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 2: at it and say, okay, that's forty five million dollars

661
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: that's normally going to the US treasury the ten years

662
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 2: scores four hundred and fifty million dollars. You don't want

663
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: to score four hundred and fifty million dollars because they say,

664
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: you got to find that money somewhere else, because we're

665
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: not going to, you know, lose that four hundred and

666
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: fifty million dollars over ten years to their treasury. So

667
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 2: it's the problem is it scores. OMB gives it a

668
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: score of four hundred and fifty million for a ten year,

669
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: so we haven't it hasn't been passed bipartisan bill that

670
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 2: has significant support on both sides of the aisle. But

671
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: just what it is right now, it's a bummer because

672
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: it's the only only fee we collect.

673
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: When you run a forest. How do they present to

674
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: you or or do they present to you some version

675
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: of a P and L like like what are the

676
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: expectations of a forest?

677
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're each forest is allocated a budget. Now they've

678
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 2: changed a few things and centritized more and more of

679
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: the budget. But for most of my career, and you'd

680
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: wrestle for you know, make your point and say you

681
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: get this much money, and you're going to get this

682
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: much in recreation, this much in timber, this much and grazing,

683
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 2: and with that money, we expect you to achieve these

684
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: targets I'm gonna give you, you know, the regional office

685
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 2: will give me x amount and timber. We want you

686
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: to produce twenty five thousand cubic feet of timber or a

687
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: million board feed or whatever. It is same with grazing.

688
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 2: If you get this much grazing, you got to, you know,

689
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 2: administer this many grazing permits. And recreation is a little

690
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: more obtuse but miles of trail. We used to get

691
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: trail maintenance dollars and you get a certain amount of trails,

692
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 2: we expect you to clear this many miles of trails.

693
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: And then, I mean throughout my career, I mean it

694
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 2: was a you didn't spend overspend that. If you did,

695
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 2: you better had another buddy that could cover you another

696
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: forest that because budgets are spun up at the regional level.

697
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: So the accountability was there, we weren't. You know, it's

698
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: called the Anti Deficiency Act. If an agency spends more

699
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 2: that it's appropriated, and I've never seen it happen because

700
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 2: it's a big no, no god.

701
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: It is there ever, an expectation articulated to for a

702
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: supervisor about how much economic activity your force should facilitate,

703
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: Like is that part of your mandate or is that

704
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: just something that happens out of it happens by chance?

705
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: No, Uh, it's not. They don't say we want this

706
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: much economic activity, but they say we're going we want

707
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: you to be able to produce this much board feet

708
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 2: of timber, or we need you you're getting this mineral's money.

709
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 2: We need you to get that mind approved or get

710
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: the eis done and same thing with recreation. Yeah, I

711
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: mean that's a it's always been a driver in the

712
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 2: national force system. Is the economics and not not to

713
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: the You know, that doesn't mean we don't get to

714
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: balance it, but it's important for sure.

715
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, like fiscal responsibility.

716
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that doesn't mean there's not areas

717
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 2: to improve.

718
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, what what is an area to improve?

719
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 3: I want to get to the areas of improvement. I'd

720
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 3: love to get like, how, how is like the permitting

721
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 3: for a mine work? Is it on the same because

722
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 3: I always get wrapped up with the mining acts and

723
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, mines don't make us any money. But

724
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 3: based off of how you explained the permitting for a

725
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 3: ski area, now I'm like, okay, well, obviously the mine

726
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 3: has to have some sort of a revenue share there

727
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 3: as well, or percentage of revenue.

728
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 2: Well, they the eighteenth you know, we're still operating under

729
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 2: the eighteen seventy two mining law and it's been amended

730
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: and there's been tweaks to it. But where where there's

731
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: not a revenue sharing of hard rock minerals, oil and gas,

732
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 2: you know, leasing, you know, look at what we call

733
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 2: get leaseable minerals. It's twenty five percent. You know, everything

734
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: that comes off of a federal mineral twenty five percent

735
00:42:58,120 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 2: comes back to the government.

736
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:00,959
Speaker 3: Not mineral oil and gas.

737
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty mineral estate. I'm sorry. And what about coal?

738
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: Is that under mining or is that under oil and gas?

739
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: Coal's undermine, so it's under the eighteen seventy two so

740
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 2: it's considered locatable. So coal, gold, silver, Okay, precious metals.

741
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: So they have to pay a land use fee, you know,

742
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 2: for occupying that piece of national force. But they don't pay,

743
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: you know, if they they don't pay for the loot

744
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: the stuff, not like they do oil and gas, and

745
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 2: not like you do with timber. Nope. No.

746
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 3: But if you read, like if I were to pop

747
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: up the eighteen seventy two Mining Act right now, which.

748
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: I got, I got my pocket.

749
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean this is I can't believe you

750
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 3: because it is referenced all over and depending on what

751
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 3: historical source like you read about when it was enacted,

752
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 3: it was like, oh, this is really how it's going

753
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: to be. It was kind of a joke when we

754
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: wrote it, as was like the diamond clause too. So

755
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 3: depending on what worse it was.

756
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: Like, you mean it was written by the it was

757
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: written by the extractor.

758
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 3: Yes, and it was, but it was also written and

759
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 3: I like, well, this will never go anywhere, ha ha

760
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 3: ha type of way. But it's five dollars an acre

761
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 3: a surface acre.

762
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that they pay a fee.

763
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: Is that still the Is that still the thing?

764
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: It's yeah, I don't have a lot of my eye.

765
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 2: Haven't dealt with minds. Yeah, it's cheap, it's it's ridiculous,

766
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: But the law hasn't been changed, and so hmm. Yeah.

767
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 2: Locatables are hard, you know, because those are just I

768
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: like dealing with oil and gas leasing. It's a nice

769
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 2: organized process. It's clear. Locatables are really complicated.

770
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 1: And I'm not I'm not a big minerals guy. Can

771
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: can you help me understand? Like how is oil not

772
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: a locatable? Like what the hell is locatable mean? The

773
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: terminology I mean.

774
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: Covered under the eighteen seventy two mining law, and so

775
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: those are what we normally think of mining gold, silver leads, inc.

776
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: Where you dig something on the ground. When oil and

777
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 2: gas came into play, we evolved a little bit and said, wait,

778
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 2: we'll lease these lands so they'll be leasable minerals, and

779
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 2: so we just use the term locatable and leasable because

780
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: two different completely processes manage those and regulatory structure.

781
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: And for the forest, for the taxpayer, for the American taxpayer,

782
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: they're doing the American taxpayer is doing better on a

783
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 1: timber harvest, they're doing better on a ski lease. They're

784
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: doing better on oil and gas then they're doing on

785
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: mineral extraction.

786
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 2: If you're looking dressed at what direct payments go with

787
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 2: the treasury or to the agency, Yeah, okay, for sure.

788
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: All right, Uh you brought up there things that could

789
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: be done better. But I feel like we're a little

790
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: bit burying the lead. So I don't I'm I don't

791
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: want to. Let's let's jump ahead. I'm trying to sort

792
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: all this out in my head.

793
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 3: If I were to go back and say, here's our guest,

794
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 3: got fits William, please let's start. We're going to talk

795
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 3: about government waste on national forests, and we're gonna learn

796
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 3: how national forests work and how we're pissing away all

797
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 3: this money.

798
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: That's how you'd have kicked it off.

799
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:34,439
Speaker 2: Yep.

800
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: Oh, I was going to come in like that's interesting.

801
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 1: I was going to come in like Scott resigned over

802
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 1: certain actions that are taking place coming down from Washington,

803
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: d C. Decisions that are being forced, things that are

804
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: being stripped away from a level of local control and

805
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: and local expertise. And then he said, hey, listen, man,

806
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: there's plenty of ways to clean up, but this is

807
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: ditching the baby with the bath water. I don't know

808
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: that's nice.

809
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 3: But let's play the Spencer New Hearts game, which one

810
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 3: is going to get more clicks.

811
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: What you approach is more appealing to you.

812
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about, you know, people listening to the show

813
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 2: and stuff, you know, context of what's been going on.

814
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 2: And it's been pretty wild since the inauguration. I mean,

815
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 2: you know, first thing has happened is we all got

816
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 2: this email that said fork in the road yep, and

817
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 2: we all deleted it because we go to training that

818
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 2: says when you get spam email, delete it. Because it

819
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 2: came from a source we'd never seen before. It was bizarre. Hey,

820
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 2: you can retire right now and get paid till October

821
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: and so, but it turned out to be real. So

822
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: that was what they called the deferred resignation program, which

823
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 2: I took. Oh you did, okay, Yeah, because I was

824
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: going to retire in the next year and a half. Yeah,

825
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 2: but they offered to pay me till October. I'm good,

826
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: I'm I'm eligible to retire, so it wouldn't affect my retirement.

827
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: And then then it was the next thing that happened

828
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: was what we called the Valentine's Day massacre, where we

829
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: we just got a letter and said you need to

830
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: fire all these people. And that was rough. We had

831
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: sixteen on our forest, but I know the forest here,

832
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 2: the Gallot and the Custer Galloton. It was in the forties,

833
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 2: and it was we had to give them this, We

834
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: had to call them up, give them this letter that

835
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: said you're fire based on your performance, which was a

836
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 2: complete lie, a complete utter lie. Their performance was fine.

837
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 2: Some of it just had their performance rating. So that

838
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 2: wasn't fun. And it was. And on our forests, fifteen

839
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: to sixteen were field level people. They worked what we

840
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: were employee called a permanent part time. They're a permanent

841
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 2: government employee, but they only work half the year the

842
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 2: field season. They started about now, finish after hunting season,

843
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 2: and then they go work in the ski resorts or whatever. Yeah,

844
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: at what salary. They're like TS five. So the cost

845
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 2: to the half of the year they're paying for us

846
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 2: is eighteen thousand bucks, so annual salary of about forty

847
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 2: forty two thousand dollars eighteen nineteen thousand. But they get

848
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: healthcare and things like that, and most of those were

849
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 2: paid with fee money, so it wasn't taxpayer moneys. The

850
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: fees we collected at room bells and campgrounds and outfit

851
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: and guides and stuff, and they clean toilets, clear trails,

852
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: to fire patrol that didn't make any sense.

853
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: That was out of fee money.

854
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, feed money. And I had to fire six people

855
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: who were paid for by the counties. We have pretty

856
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: well off counties, you know, Picking County and Eagle County

857
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 2: and Summit County, and for years and years they've been

858
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 2: actually giving us the Feds money because they wanted more

859
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 2: people on the ground during the busy season. Because we

860
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 2: just didn't have enough money to have patrols and people

861
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 2: clear and trails and clean up human waste and all

862
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: that stuff. So we had to fire people who were

863
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 2: paid for by counties. That didn't save any money.

864
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 4: That's what was How common is that in other Is

865
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 4: there other forests that have similar systems.

866
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 2: Where they're Yeah, lots of forest have. The other big

867
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: fee we get is we get grants and most I

868
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: don't know how much in Montana, but certainly Wyoming. You

869
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 2: get grants from what we call the sticker fund, where

870
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: you your ATV stickers and your snow mill stickers. Sure,

871
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: the state gives us money to hire people to you know,

872
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 2: have ATV crew and so we had to let people

873
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 2: go that were paid for by the state.

874
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, because your off road vehicle stamp, your OHV stamp

875
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 3: that you can, like in Montana, you can buy it

876
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 3: online with your hunting license, that is that specifically earmarked

877
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 3: for trails and possibly campground.

878
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: Too, Yeah, and trailheads. And I'm more familiar in Colorado.

879
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 2: But it's a great source of money. I mean. And

880
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 2: we had whole crews that were paid for by the state,

881
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 2: some of which because they were in this probationary period

882
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 2: we had to fire. Didn't make sense. That's when I

883
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: started to think this, this is not a restructuring.

884
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 1: Why did it need to come as that it was

885
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: a performance issue. That's just like a legal Yeah. Sure,

886
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: they're anticipating litigation.

887
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 2: Right, which they ended up losing. And some of these

888
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: people were judges ordered in some states, in some districts

889
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 2: that are now back to work. I'm not sure what

890
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: is efficient about. We paid them the whole time that

891
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 2: they were fired because the judge ordered back pay, and

892
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:02,399
Speaker 2: so there's nothing effishient about that.

893
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 4: Did you feel obligated, Oh, I don't know if you

894
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 4: can answer this, but did you feel obligated like you

895
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 4: had to have the official like you're fired based on

896
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 4: performance conversation? Did you feel obligated to have another conversation

897
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 4: with them and be like, look my hand like I can't.

898
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, and I'm sure I would have gotten

899
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 2: in trouble for it, but I just told them this

900
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 2: is not true, and you know it's not true. So

901
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 2: that was just hard, and that's when it really started

902
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 2: to hit me like that. The next thing they offered

903
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 2: was a voluntary early retirement program, So tons of people

904
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: are taking retirement, so you're losing you know, we've hired

905
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 2: all our new employees and now people like me and

906
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 2: many of my colleagues are failing, so we're losing the

907
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 2: you know, institutional knowledge. And then they just offered fork

908
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 2: in the road too because they didn't get as many

909
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 2: as they wanted, so and then we expect reduction firings.

910
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: You know, you didn't take any of that. You're gone

911
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: coming in the next couple of months. And so I

912
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: just h I've never ran away from a challenge. Fact

913
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 2: that I love to fight all kinds of fights. But

914
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 2: maybe I'm just too old, and I was like, I

915
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: can't be part of the dismantling of this organization. And

916
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 2: then that's how I see it right now. It's you know,

917
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 2: we're just there. Just doesn't seem to be a plan,

918
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: like Okay, let's sit down together and figure out or

919
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 2: give us a number, say for service we need, you

920
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 2: need to cut twenty percent and let us figure out. Okay,

921
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 2: let's what we don't need. It was just this random,

922
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: bizarre you know, go fire these people. Okay, Yeah, that

923
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 2: didn't make sense to me, and I didn't want to

924
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 2: be part of that because I can't support it. I can't.

925
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 3: But would you say your forest was like without waste,

926
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 3: without frauds?

927
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 2: And I tell you, in thirty five years work for

928
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 2: the government, I've seen inefficiency, saw some waste. I didn't

929
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 2: see fraud and abuse I can't recall like an actual

930
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 2: fraudulent activity. I've seen contractors try to defraud the government,

931
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 2: you know, where they we paid the contractor to do

932
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 2: something and then they didn't do it, or fudged it,

933
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 2: or walked out on it, or defraud it in some way.

934
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 2: But I haven't seen like people defraud it. Does it

935
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 2: go on? I think in the context of natural resources,

936
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 2: the fix, the fixes I would have was hoping for,

937
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 2: was one. And I don't know if I bettioned my

938
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 2: colleagues in the parksers and BLM with similar we've gotten.

939
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 2: We got really top heavy as far as too many

940
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 2: people in Washington and regional office at the expense of

941
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 2: what we're supposed to be doing that's on the ground,

942
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 2: doing the groundwork. That's what the public wants. They want clear,

943
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 2: trails clear and they want fuels reduced, and they want

944
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 2: the Kyle's taken care of. They want garbage picked up,

945
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 2: and we were I would have made that adjustment. And

946
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 2: you know, the other thing I think we've really got

947
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 2: to come to grips with, and you guys talk a

948
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 2: lot about this stuff, is the redundancy and regulations like

949
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 2: Endangered Species Act or you know, the Archaeological Projection Act

950
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 2: A Section one oh six. So you know, when we

951
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 2: do a project we have really good biologists who work

952
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 2: on that piece of ground and then and maybe there's

953
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 2: a chrissy barrel wolf for whatever the listed species is,

954
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 2: and they design mitigation. You know, we're going to do

955
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,280
Speaker 2: this fuels project or cut the streets. But the biologist

956
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,879
Speaker 2: comes in. But the way the process works in Dager

957
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 2: Species Act, then we send that biological evaluation to a

958
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: biologist in an office in Montana would be in Helena,

959
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 2: who has never seen that piece of ground ever, and

960
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: then they make an evaluation of what we should be doing.

961
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 2: So you have two agencies making redundancy. I think we've

962
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 2: got to really step back on that. It's the people

963
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 2: on the ground. Know we have biologists that know how

964
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: to protect these species. Maybe there can be just a concurrence.

965
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 2: But with the Fish mode Ie Service, you know, when

966
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 2: we have archaeological protection, we have to go through what's

967
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 2: called Section one oh six consultation. So we have an archaeologist,

968
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 2: they find a site or some resource. Then they have

969
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 2: to write up a big fat report, send it to

970
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 2: the State Shipo Office, State Historic Preservation Office, and they

971
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 2: either agree or don't agree with us. And if we

972
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 2: don't agree, then there's a group of national archaeologists who

973
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 2: can seems like a lot of archaeologists looking at the

974
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 2: same piece of ground and only one of them is

975
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 2: looking at the ground. The other people don't see that

976
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 2: they're in an office somewhere. And I've always thought that.

977
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 2: And when I worked in Wyoming, we had such great

978
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 2: bare biologists and working with the state, and then we'd

979
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 2: send our you know, biological evaguations to Cheyenne where they

980
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 2: had never been on that piece of ground. Yeah, I

981
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 2: think we got to look at things like that, and

982
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 2: just the redundancy in government, I think is something that

983
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 2: I think needs to change. Governments were set up to

984
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 2: be a little inefficient and slow, and I think that's

985
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 2: by design to protect the public, to protect the taxpayers money.

986
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 2: But I think there's a lot we can do, and

987
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 2: I just don't think getting rid of the person that

988
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 2: makes eighteen thousand dollars a year that clears trails is

989
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: going to fix any of that.

990
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I've looked at the when I've looked at

991
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 1: the costs that have come to the federal land management agencies,

992
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: and I'm singling them out because it's of interest to

993
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: me and because I know some stuff about it. I've wondered,

994
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 1: allowed why there wasn't a why there wasn't an approach

995
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: like this, like a layout that you would get your

996
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 1: cabinet in place, you'd get your administrators in place, and

997
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 1: you would come to them and say, you have ninety days,

998
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: you have one hundred and twenty days. It seems always

999
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: works like that, right, ninety that's like the magic numbers.

1000
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: You have ninety days, you have one hundred and twenty days.

1001
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 1: It's like doing twelve reps and your exercise. Just the

1002
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: number of people, why not seven to come to me

1003
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 1: and present to me, how are you going to cut

1004
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: your budget by thirty percent? And then you have the

1005
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: professionals in these spaces propose make a proposal in your mind,

1006
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: like why was that not the approach to use? Look,

1007
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: if you had to get in the head of it,

1008
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: like why why not use that approach which seems like

1009
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 1: like and how like and how in business that would

1010
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: be a thing that would happen.

1011
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think there was just a more

1012
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 2: urgency than I've ever seen. Trying to think how many

1013
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 2: administrations I've been through. So the first change I was

1014
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 2: through was when Clinton got an office. So someone add

1015
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 2: up all those presidents since I've been working. But the

1016
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 2: urgency in this one just seemed we got to do

1017
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 2: it now. And that's why, you know, we just sent

1018
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 2: out and fired people and things like that, as opposed

1019
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 2: to you need to give me a twenty five percent cut.

1020
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1021
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 2: I don't care how you do it, or you could say,

1022
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 2: you know, I still want to emphasize these things, but

1023
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 2: you got to cut twenty five percent. I don't know.

1024
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 2: That would have seemed to make more sense. And then

1025
00:59:55,760 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 2: why why let people like myself or others like there

1026
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 2: was no rhyme or reason to who we let take

1027
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 2: this early resignation program deferred resignation program some people we want,

1028
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 2: we shouldn't offered it to them. They're going to I mean,

1029
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 2: they're going to replace me. So what what good did

1030
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 2: it do to pay me to do nothing for six months?

1031
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 2: I don't understand that. I don't know. They could have

1032
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 2: just said, no, you're not eligible for this. I don't know.

1033
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 2: I you know, there's a it's it's big change, you know,

1034
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 2: I think Cali, I told you this that I don't

1035
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 2: know how beneficial it is in today's well, but the

1036
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 2: four service is about the only agency. I don't know,

1037
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 2: maybe in all of them, but certainly in all the

1038
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 2: agencies we all talk about fishing, moll A, servers, Park Service, BLM.

1039
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 2: That we've our head, our chief has always been a

1040
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 2: career person. We've never had a political point and tell now, first,

1041
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 2: Tom Schultz is the new chief from my herd's a

1042
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 2: good guy. But that's the first time in our history

1043
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 2: we've ever had a non you know, career employee become chief.

1044
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 2: So it changes on the way, which is fine. I

1045
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 2: don't know how what's the difference anymore in today's world,

1046
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 2: But anyway, I don't know what's you know, the future holds.

1047
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:32,479
Speaker 2: I'm worried about a couple of things, and the one

1048
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 2: is do we dismantle the agency the point where we've

1049
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 2: become ineffective, where they actually can prove you guys can't

1050
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 2: do shit. Okay, we're at it that way. I mean,

1051
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 2: based on what I'm seeing. By that time I left,

1052
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 2: we had lost twenty seven people between firings and people

1053
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 2: just saying I'm going somewhere else. Twenty some people in

1054
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 2: thirty days, fifty people in a calendar year. Who's going

1055
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 2: to be left do the work? And then when people

1056
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 2: get pissed and say, see the Force servers can't do it,

1057
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 2: maybe we ought to let the States handle that.

1058
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 3: Can I interject?

1059
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 5: It seems like that's always been a You've probably seen

1060
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 5: this col Brody to work. Some of the outfitters that

1061
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:17,440
Speaker 5: we've worked with over the years, some have good relationships

1062
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,919
Speaker 5: with the Forest Service, and I've often heard outfitters refer

1063
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 5: to you as the forest disservice, right. And then now

1064
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 5: on the Instagram when you can see sort of some

1065
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 5: people sort of the ones that are on board with

1066
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 5: what's going on now, they're like, listen, I've been cutting

1067
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 5: this trail out myself way before any Forest Service trail

1068
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 5: crew comes in here and does this. We haven't relied

1069
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 5: on them anyways, because we've been in here doing it

1070
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 5: because this is our business.

1071
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 3: Right right.

1072
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 5: That's like a common thing that's always been a theme,

1073
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 5: right where.

1074
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's also been true. I mean when I

1075
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 2: was guiding in Wyoming, I Force has never cut out

1076
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 2: the trail there were system trails. No, we don't cut

1077
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 2: out trails that are not system trails. They're just the

1078
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 2: outfitters trails when they're not supposed to be cutting them

1079
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 2: out or whatever.

1080
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: But one time asked about that. I was trying to

1081
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 1: see what it requires to make your own trail with

1082
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 1: a chainsaw, and I was dissuaded.

1083
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: Bad idea it was going to trail.

1084
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 3: One of the first meetings I went to here in

1085
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 3: Bozeman when I first moved to town, I listened to

1086
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 3: a fellow who happens to be in the conservation world.

1087
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 3: Just brate the Forest Service for not maintaining the illegally

1088
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 3: built mountain bike trails.

1089
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, mountain bikers over the last decade are the worst.

1090
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 2: The bastards will build a trail anywhere, and that they

1091
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 2: have this theory. It's like, well, we have three thousand miles. Yeah,

1092
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 2: but I've been on those mountain bikers oh yeah, absolute across.

1093
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 5: Hard working suckers man trails.

1094
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, I mean, oh yeah, I can tell you

1095
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 6: I've been up drainages. We're like, yeah, like I was

1096
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 6: here a month ago and there was no side and

1097
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 6: now there's it's not like it's a trail. There's jumps

1098
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 6: in ramps and banks and yeah, and.

1099
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,919
Speaker 4: Sometimes in wilderness there is oh yeah.

1100
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 7: Supposed to add to my list of people I don't like,

1101
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 7: but it's a good example of some of the conflicts

1102
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 7: Today's Well, like, literally, I've had these mom mikes say

1103
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 7: to me, well we've already you know, people have already

1104
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 7: done all those trails.

1105
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 2: Well that's an unsustainable mom because sooner or later you

1106
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 2: will use them all and we'll just keep building more.

1107
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 1: And that's good. I like, I like to engage with

1108
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 1: them on the logic of it. Right, Well, you're using it,

1109
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: makes it that it's not good anymore, so then you

1110
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 1: need to make a new one. That would end with

1111
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 1: all things being.

1112
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 2: A mountain bike trail.

1113
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: So you should just sell your bike now because you're

1114
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: headed to the same place.

1115
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, back to your question, I think there's some truth

1116
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:55,200
Speaker 2: to it, and and uh I got it.

1117
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: I can't sit idly by. This has been the thing

1118
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about for a long time. Well, you

1119
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 1: go ahead, then I'll go tell them the truth in it.

1120
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 2: Uh h.

1121
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,919
Speaker 3: What for service plans are kind of co op right,

1122
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 3: Like you there's always going to be a user, even

1123
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 3: in a user pay system, right Like, if you're an outfitter,

1124
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,920
Speaker 3: you're you're operating under a permit that you pay for.

1125
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 3: You're not gonna sit there and wait for the Forest

1126
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 3: Service to clear those trails, you gotta do, get things prepped.

1127
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 3: You're gonna You're gonna do it.

1128
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 2: And if you're on of those outfitters are using the

1129
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 2: trails that not a lot of people use. So you

1130
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 2: take your what little money you have or the staff

1131
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 2: you have, and okay, I got to send mine to

1132
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 2: the folks, you know, the places around Eagle and Aspen,

1133
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 2: because there's eight thousand people a day on those trails

1134
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 2: and only seven outfitters a week on the other ones.

1135
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 2: And so I could see they're frustration, especially when you

1136
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 2: have flowdowns and stuff. And I think we were we

1137
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 2: got I said a little bit. We we kind of

1138
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 2: lost our way a little bit too much overhead and

1139
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 2: not really focusing on what we really needed. And man

1140
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 2: if I was in charge of reforming, I would have

1141
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 2: flipped everything upside down and said we were going to

1142
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 2: fund the ground first and then fund what's left. You know,

1143
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 2: we're going to fund the overhead last.

1144
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 4: But like I've been places like where we us Turkey Hunt,

1145
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 4: you know, with your buddy in Nebraska, where they like

1146
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 4: that National Forest is like it's like a symbol, right,

1147
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 4: there's like this anti federal government sentiment and that land

1148
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 4: is just like they look at it and they just

1149
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 4: they get mad because they can't do whatever they want

1150
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,439
Speaker 4: on it. Right, So there's an aspect of that involved too,

1151
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 4: And so I don't think that's the case.

1152
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: With the White Rooms.

1153
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 2: But they love the places like there's places you know,

1154
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 2: Idaho and parts of Montana in Utah.

1155
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, we're public land like stands in the way

1156
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 1: of your ambitions.

1157
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:52,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, or whatever it might be. And it stands for

1158
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 2: the federal government, which we don't like.

1159
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 3: I was also I get seen as an apologist sometimes.

1160
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 3: But you know, it's like nature does not follow your

1161
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 3: your multi use plan either. So if you have budget

1162
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 3: for one thousand miles of trail clearing and you're in

1163
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 3: you know, that burned over pecker Pole zone and you

1164
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 3: have a windy summer, you can legitimately clear a thousand

1165
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 3: miles of the same trail, yeah, and never get to

1166
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 3: the other trails because it's just like and I'd like,

1167
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 3: we have a lot of trails historically, you know, where

1168
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 3: we'd leave the first couple of hundred yards down and

1169
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 3: nasty and stuff, and then we'd clear the rest of it. Right,

1170
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 3: we'd have our own kind of personal trail for the

1171
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 3: rest what I want to make and.

1172
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: One you'd never know was there, but man, you had

1173
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 1: to go through hell. And also, like what you're on

1174
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: the trail, You could.

1175
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 3: Go in there and do like a full seventy two

1176
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 3: hours of busting your ass, cutting, cutting it, cutting trail,

1177
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 3: and even make a nice little stack of firewood for

1178
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 3: yourself when you come in there later and the next

1179
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 3: weekend you go in there and you're.

1180
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 1: Like, oh, trail's gone.

1181
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, trail's gone, as if nobody had ever been in here.

1182
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I want to speak the thing that you

1183
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: alluded to. And do you remember how earlier were talking

1184
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 1: about mountain lions. Yeah, And I'm like, my end goal

1185
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 1: is to restore mountain lion hunting in places where it's

1186
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 1: been lost in the service of myself as a hunter hunters.

1187
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 1: To get to that end goal, I wind up feeling

1188
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,799
Speaker 1: guilty if I were to play the card that mountain

1189
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 1: lions are these terrible, dangerous creatures, like the ends in

1190
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 1: that case, like the end wouldn't justify the means, right.

1191
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:51,080
Speaker 1: My end goal is that I want lion hunting, but

1192
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:55,679
Speaker 1: I can't get there through a disingenuous path of sowing

1193
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,479
Speaker 1: fear of mountain lions right, which is a tempting way

1194
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 1: to go. It's effective. Yeah, the minute you tell anybody

1195
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 1: this mountains are gonna kill your kids, we don't hunt them.

1196
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 5: Predator control.

1197
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 1: It's a way to get where you want to get.

1198
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 2: Yep.

1199
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 1: Now, I'm a public lands user, I'm a public lands defender,

1200
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 1: but there's a just out of moral honesty. I think

1201
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 1: that it's a little conspiratorial. Maybe you disagree. I think

1202
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:30,480
Speaker 1: it's conspiratorial to suggest that lawmakers are saying the pathway

1203
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:34,439
Speaker 1: to being able to sell off all the public lands

1204
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 1: is to emasculate land management agencies to the point where

1205
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: they do a terrible job, at which point we'll be

1206
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 1: able to go to the public and say, look what

1207
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 1: a mess, let's sell it all right, because it's like

1208
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:51,600
Speaker 1: a little it feels out there to me.

1209
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 2: Well, it also to acquire a lot of connections and

1210
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 2: a lot of people involved with the same conspiracy. So

1211
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 2: when I say I'm worried about the dismantling, I'm worried

1212
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:06,600
Speaker 2: about the disman Like, what if we the basic maintenance

1213
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:09,679
Speaker 2: of them, the basic stewardship of the land, being able

1214
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 2: to respond to the public. I think that's what I

1215
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 2: don't think we're there's I don't think people are smart

1216
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 2: enough to pull that off. I really don't in any

1217
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:23,599
Speaker 2: part of government to even Congress to like, Okay, we've

1218
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 2: got that, because that would take time.

1219
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's like a fifty year plan.

1220
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:32,880
Speaker 2: Right. However, I based on what I'm seeing and talking

1221
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:35,439
Speaker 2: to people at the highest levels who are working with

1222
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 2: these people in Washington, there is a general disregard for

1223
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 2: maintaining the management and stewardship of public lands. It's like,

1224
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,679
Speaker 2: they're fine, so they're also producing. Let's produce more timber

1225
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 2: and mining and stuff and partake to the cause. But

1226
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 2: the rest of that stuff, we don't have to worry

1227
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:57,400
Speaker 2: about it.

1228
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:01,680
Speaker 4: The end result of the but and the inefficiencies that

1229
01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 4: would result from that could also ultimately result and let's

1230
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 4: just get rid of it.

1231
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that. I I think that's a long

1232
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:15,280
Speaker 2: stretch that would. I hear that a lot. Oh yeah,

1233
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 2: we do hear it a lot.

1234
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:18,639
Speaker 1: And you hear the mountain lions are going to kill

1235
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 1: all your.

1236
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:24,640
Speaker 2: Kids kids exactly. Boy, don't you guys think people on

1237
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:27,439
Speaker 2: both sides I would lose their mind if we really

1238
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:31,559
Speaker 2: start to sell off public lands or even transfer them

1239
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 2: to the state.

1240
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:38,680
Speaker 1: That has been in twenty fifteen, it sure looked like that,

1241
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 1: but your people lost their minds in twenty fifteen. Yeah,

1242
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's been a fundamental shift, because

1243
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 1: there's been a I think it's a little harder right

1244
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: now to it's a little harder right now to pick

1245
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 1: and choose policy, and there's more pressure to get aligned

1246
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:12,720
Speaker 1: on a wholesale across the board fashion within ideology, and

1247
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,559
Speaker 1: it's harder to it's harder to go like, yeah, oh

1248
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: that's great, but this thing no way right. It's kind

1249
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 1: of like that you need to there's a temptation to

1250
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:33,120
Speaker 1: endorse an entire initiative for fear of cracking the coalition.

1251
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 1: But where I say that, and I was starting, I

1252
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:40,040
Speaker 1: was feeling that. But in looking at it's been interesting

1253
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 1: to look at conversations around tariffs. Now, when you get

1254
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 1: into people's money, you find there's a lot of people

1255
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 1: going like no, no, no, didn't like this, don't like this.

1256
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 1: Now what I signed up for. I didn't sign up

1257
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:57,960
Speaker 1: for losing millions of dollars overnight. So there you see

1258
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 1: people that are aligned with an ideology saying like, hey, man,

1259
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 1: I'm into all this, but this part not into So

1260
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 1: you're seeing that around the tariff discussion where allies or

1261
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:17,599
Speaker 1: are starting to pick apart what they don't like. So

1262
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:22,559
Speaker 1: we'll see cal and I messaged about this over the

1263
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 1: weekend where Senator Heinrich, who's a Democrat from New Mexico,

1264
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 1: Avid Hunter, he put forward a piece of legislation saying, hey,

1265
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:47,800
Speaker 1: let's leave selling public lands, selling federal public lands out

1266
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:52,560
Speaker 1: of the budget reconciliation process. It didn't pass. What I

1267
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 1: thought was really interesting is our state. We have two

1268
01:13:55,920 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 1: Republican senators, Senator Danes and Senator She supported it all.

1269
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 2: That Zinki too, right, Yeah, he verbally support it.

1270
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:16,679
Speaker 1: Yeah. So in this state, Okay, in Montana, you can't win.

1271
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:19,639
Speaker 2: You could lose elections over public land.

1272
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 1: You have to you cannot win, you have to you

1273
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 1: have to be pro public land. Yeah, in this state.

1274
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:32,679
Speaker 1: And they were outliers in their party, right. Yeah, this

1275
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 1: this thing that Hunter did, didn't didn't paden that night.

1276
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, one one Democrat did not vote, and yeah she

1277
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 3: and and Danes were the only Republicans to so for it.

1278
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 1: In that case, when you say, like people, Democrats, Republicans whatever,

1279
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 1: would lose their minds. I don't know, Like I'm not

1280
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:04,640
Speaker 1: like a DC insider. I don't know all the conversations

1281
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 1: that went in, but I think that it was clear

1282
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 1: that like Montanas would lose their minds. But I don't.

1283
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:11,679
Speaker 1: Montana's a small state.

1284
01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:14,720
Speaker 3: But even so, I've been digging into like land.

1285
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:16,240
Speaker 1: Use, small small population.

1286
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:25,719
Speaker 3: Sorry Nevada. You know, Nevada successfully lobbied for largeer land

1287
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 3: sales on on the BLM side for affordable housing. Right

1288
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:34,200
Speaker 3: so far they've sold eighteen thousand acres in the name

1289
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 3: of affordable housing, eighteen eighteen thousand acres of BLM ground

1290
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:40,599
Speaker 3: since nineteen ninety six.

1291
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:43,840
Speaker 1: I think, how affordable is the housing.

1292
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:45,759
Speaker 5: Nobody else?

1293
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:50,120
Speaker 1: But I laugh when I think about the affordable housing aspect.

1294
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:54,600
Speaker 3: It's really there isn't any They didn't Yeah, unfortunately, I

1295
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:56,679
Speaker 3: mean there's there's people on both sides of the aisle

1296
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 3: who are like, oh, yeah, we do need affordable housing.

1297
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:00,240
Speaker 3: If this is the way we can do it, we

1298
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:04,040
Speaker 3: can do it. But the math provided by Bloomberg Law

1299
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:07,720
Speaker 3: yesterday was thirty acres out of that eighteen thousand have

1300
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:13,880
Speaker 3: actually gone towards affordable housing, and thirty acres out of eighteen.

1301
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:16,320
Speaker 1: Thousand tiny houses, Like what are you talking about?

1302
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 3: Well, and that's the thing.

1303
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:19,760
Speaker 2: That the food restricted houses and things like that.

1304
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 3: And you know, a huge pushback, right is you have

1305
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:30,240
Speaker 3: landowners who strategically purchased on the edge of BLM being like, well,

1306
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 3: that stuff's always going to be open. So my property

1307
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 3: value is based off of access to Bureau of Land

1308
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 3: Management and the fact that, like, my view is never

1309
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:44,880
Speaker 3: going to be blocked by another house or housing development. Right.

1310
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:49,479
Speaker 3: So our state government, who a lot of people argue

1311
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:51,720
Speaker 3: on behalf of is like, well, the states can do

1312
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:55,680
Speaker 3: it better. Well, right now, the states aren't doing anything.

1313
01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 2: With state trust lands.

1314
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:03,719
Speaker 3: Well, they're not mandate any sort of restrictions on second

1315
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 3: or third homes, deed restricted housing. They're not doing the work,

1316
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:14,320
Speaker 3: but they're asking for more land. Interesting, and this is

1317
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 3: an extremely unpopular opinion, especially for years. Yeah, who goes

1318
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:20,840
Speaker 3: up to Helena and talks to these folks. They don't

1319
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 3: want to hear it. They just want more land. So

1320
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:28,200
Speaker 3: I think there's a giant disconnect between the federal government

1321
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:30,680
Speaker 3: and the people on the ground because the Feds are like,

1322
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 3: oh yeah, easy button, sell four hundred thousand acres of

1323
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:38,479
Speaker 3: BLM ground. Which is under flip my right now. Right

1324
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:41,600
Speaker 3: it's already gone through the nep of process and flip my.

1325
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 3: They've been earmarked for a long time four hundred thousand

1326
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 3: acres of BLM ground. But there's also a lot of

1327
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 3: conversations around an additional five hundred thousand acres of US

1328
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:56,599
Speaker 3: Forest Service ground, which hasn't been done before, and that's

1329
01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:01,720
Speaker 3: going to take some serious effort. Again, you have all

1330
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:06,280
Speaker 3: these people who are like, oh, yeah, that makes sense,

1331
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 3: public land sales on behalf of this to address affordable housing,

1332
01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:16,000
Speaker 3: but nobody's actually doing the work to address affordable housing.

1333
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,400
Speaker 3: They're just saying if we give this over, people are

1334
01:18:19,439 --> 01:18:23,519
Speaker 3: gonna be like, oh, see, the government's doing something about this,

1335
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:26,880
Speaker 3: but it's not. There's no follow through.

1336
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 2: No and living in places that you guys are familiar

1337
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:35,400
Speaker 2: with where there's very little affordable housing. It's the biggest issue.

1338
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:37,720
Speaker 2: I've spent more time in the last six years of

1339
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 2: my career dealing with housing and affordable housing. We actually

1340
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 2: have a program. We got the legislation passed and we're

1341
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 2: the first one in the country, the White River. I

1342
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:49,760
Speaker 2: gotta stop saying we they and it was it was

1343
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:52,720
Speaker 2: in the twenty sixteen farm bell. President Trump actually signed it.

1344
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:59,720
Speaker 2: Where we have what's called administrative sites where we used

1345
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:03,160
Speaker 2: to have a district office or a boneyard or something.

1346
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:05,040
Speaker 2: We'm all over the place where we have you know,

1347
01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:09,519
Speaker 2: crappy housing on them. Now that this legislation allows us

1348
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:14,000
Speaker 2: to lease this property to we got to give a

1349
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:17,479
Speaker 2: right of first refusal to a community, a county, a

1350
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:22,519
Speaker 2: local government, and in exchange for the lease, they will

1351
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:25,679
Speaker 2: build us employee housing and then they get to build

1352
01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:29,200
Speaker 2: other all affordable housing. So we have a project in Dylan,

1353
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:34,080
Speaker 2: Colorado where we have eleven acres beautiful overlooking the thing

1354
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:36,720
Speaker 2: we used to have like six crappy falling apart for

1355
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:40,720
Speaker 2: service houses on it's now been bulldoz. We're working with

1356
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:44,800
Speaker 2: the Summit County government where they're going to lease it

1357
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:46,640
Speaker 2: and they're going to bild one hundred and twenty one

1358
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 2: million dollars worth of affordable housing deed restricted you know

1359
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:56,519
Speaker 2: application actual affordable housing. And instead of paying the government

1360
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 2: for the leasing the land, they're paying us in kind

1361
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:03,400
Speaker 2: by building us a new you know, fire shop and

1362
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 2: giving us house and housing. That's cool program, but that's a.

1363
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:10,000
Speaker 4: Lot of work that's not on the side of a

1364
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 4: mountain somewhere right Like it's like I'm assuming, yeah in.

1365
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:17,880
Speaker 2: Town, Yeah, it's it's next to it a nice site.

1366
01:20:17,920 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 4: You're not going to build some big affordable housing.

1367
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:24,519
Speaker 2: All over the country. We have those administrative sites that

1368
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:28,240
Speaker 2: are under Utilie. I think you know. I started my career.

1369
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:31,120
Speaker 2: My first permanent job was in Jackson Hall, where ninety

1370
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:34,720
Speaker 2: eight percent of the county is federal land. And I

1371
01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:36,880
Speaker 2: don't know how the federal government can't play a role.

1372
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 2: I think we should, you know, but man, every acre

1373
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 2: is sacred there.

1374
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:44,840
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you when I on this issue. One

1375
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 1: of the areas where I felt like that I had

1376
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:54,840
Speaker 1: a knowledge gap would be I would want to what

1377
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:58,160
Speaker 1: I'm asking is I want to have the authority to say.

1378
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:01,559
Speaker 1: I want to be the final say, and I'll visit

1379
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 1: every patch the ground and I'll say would this lead

1380
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:11,840
Speaker 1: my My lit miss will be this, would this lead

1381
01:21:11,880 --> 01:21:15,639
Speaker 1: to a loss of wildlife habitat? If it's yes, then

1382
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 1: it's no. If it's no, then it's yes. The case

1383
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 1: you're bringing up where it's like it's already a developed landscape.

1384
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 1: It's in a town. It's a developed landscape, it has buildings,

1385
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:32,639
Speaker 1: it's not like on the side of wildlife habitat right now,

1386
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:39,920
Speaker 1: that makes that's different to me than than uh other

1387
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:42,559
Speaker 1: you know that that's different to me in other cases.

1388
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:44,920
Speaker 1: And when you look at the acreage, I feel like

1389
01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:50,120
Speaker 1: when you look at the acreage, it will have to stray,

1390
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:54,120
Speaker 1: like it'll have to stray from already developed sites. Like

1391
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:55,599
Speaker 1: do you feel that you're going to get there?

1392
01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:58,360
Speaker 2: I don't. I hope not. I mean I think.

1393
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think there's enough already develop sites

1394
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:02,839
Speaker 1: to like fuel this ambition?

1395
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:06,439
Speaker 2: No, not to fill the gap of what we you know,

1396
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:10,040
Speaker 2: to meet affordable housing needs. Know you would have, but

1397
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:13,120
Speaker 2: there are still some spots that again you if you

1398
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 2: were king, you get to look at and decide it

1399
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 2: where it's just I don't know, survey from one hundred

1400
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:21,360
Speaker 2: years ago, where it's like it's kind of it's it's

1401
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:23,600
Speaker 2: not developed, there's nothing on it, but it's there's a

1402
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 2: little spot right by Eastvale or.

1403
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:30,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not like valuable wildlife habitat range.

1404
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 2: Technically, but it's also surrounded by a hotel and so

1405
01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:36,240
Speaker 2: like forty acres, we should build housing on that, but

1406
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:40,559
Speaker 2: it's not designated to administrative sites. So but I'm with

1407
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:42,680
Speaker 2: you one hundred percent. I don't think we can you

1408
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:45,160
Speaker 2: start to crawl up the mountain and the other thing.

1409
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 2: It should be for some public good, not let's just

1410
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:49,760
Speaker 2: sell it off so a rich person could buy it

1411
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 2: and build a second home. Yeah, like this whole issue

1412
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:54,639
Speaker 2: of affordable housing indeed restrict to housing, I can get

1413
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:55,680
Speaker 2: on board some of that.

1414
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:58,639
Speaker 1: Do you feel that there's a way that you would

1415
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:03,280
Speaker 1: take this affordable housing issue? That's that's forward right now,

1416
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:05,280
Speaker 1: unless say we have a way that we there's a

1417
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:08,880
Speaker 1: checks and there's a system to measure, like is this

1418
01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:12,679
Speaker 1: achieving the goal? If the public is behind affordable housing?

1419
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 1: Is this creating affordable housing? And that seems like to

1420
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:16,559
Speaker 1: me like a thing that you could either that you

1421
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:21,960
Speaker 1: could that you could put numbers around and understand if

1422
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:25,400
Speaker 1: this is true in execution or not, Like define affordable

1423
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:27,880
Speaker 1: housing and then something will monitor to make sure that

1424
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:31,240
Speaker 1: this is being effective and creating affordable housing. Is there

1425
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:37,599
Speaker 1: a way to get there with land swaps where if

1426
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:41,240
Speaker 1: we're talking if we define like these are like marginal pieces,

1427
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:47,040
Speaker 1: isolated pieces, marginal pieces of wildlife habitat that are close

1428
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:50,719
Speaker 1: to urban centers or suburban centers, we're going to open

1429
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:53,439
Speaker 1: these up. Is there a way to pull this off

1430
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:56,320
Speaker 1: where there's not a net loss in public acreage? Can

1431
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:57,480
Speaker 1: we get better stuff.

1432
01:23:57,200 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 2: And say you can get a gain an actual acre

1433
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:02,680
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, that's kind of been the

1434
01:24:02,720 --> 01:24:05,679
Speaker 2: trend because the place closer to the resort, if you will,

1435
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 2: or closer town, is gonna be worth more than some

1436
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:11,719
Speaker 2: stream side up the hill, some in holding up the hill.

1437
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:14,320
Speaker 2: So I think that's a great way to do it.

1438
01:24:14,360 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 2: The problem is if I don't know, I don't know

1439
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:20,639
Speaker 2: if the states could do it, I guess the counties

1440
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:23,080
Speaker 2: would have to zone that to say this has to

1441
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:27,040
Speaker 2: be affordable housing. We're not helping the situation if we're

1442
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:31,720
Speaker 2: just making more second homes. That's what's wrecking all these communities.

1443
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:32,879
Speaker 2: It's and I don't.

1444
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:38,040
Speaker 3: Well, look at Park City, Jackson, Holly Bozeman, Like the

1445
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:42,400
Speaker 3: neighborhood I live in just just filled up magically with

1446
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:47,920
Speaker 3: the the the heavy snow gone, including my next door

1447
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:55,559
Speaker 3: neighbor who's sidewalk I've been maintaining in their absence. Right, Yeah,

1448
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 3: there's a shitload of housing there that nobody is living

1449
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:01,559
Speaker 3: in until the weather gets nice.

1450
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:04,000
Speaker 2: Or the VRBO or whatever.

1451
01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:07,519
Speaker 3: If you look at the newspaper here in town, it's

1452
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 3: been every week there's been a oh that affordable housing thing.

1453
01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 3: Nobody liked that in the gallat and Valley.

1454
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:18,240
Speaker 2: We need to just build it somewhere else.

1455
01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:23,000
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, exactly, and ketch mydaho. There's a great project

1456
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:26,040
Speaker 3: for housing for for forest service.

1457
01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:28,280
Speaker 2: It's the same leasing program, man, Yeah.

1458
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:33,080
Speaker 3: Same leasing program. The town doesn't like it. It's gonna

1459
01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:36,240
Speaker 3: be put too many people who go to the bars,

1460
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:37,960
Speaker 3: was one of the quotes in one spot.

1461
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:41,559
Speaker 1: The bar owners like, sweet, the other.

1462
01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 5: Built this town makes his town great. Let's not have

1463
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:46,479
Speaker 5: them here.

1464
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:51,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. The other affordable housing project that they did squeak

1465
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:55,720
Speaker 3: through in zoning to get one more level on an

1466
01:25:55,760 --> 01:26:02,080
Speaker 3: existing property downtown, right, that all turned into vrbos. Yeah,

1467
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:06,559
Speaker 3: there's no no affordable housing there. And so you cannot

1468
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:11,040
Speaker 3: tell me like it'd be like you parents should chime

1469
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:16,479
Speaker 3: in on this, your kids like, I can't live in

1470
01:26:16,479 --> 01:26:18,920
Speaker 3: my room anymore. You're like, well, why is that? Well,

1471
01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:20,439
Speaker 3: I got too much shit everywhere.

1472
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 4: It sounds familiar.

1473
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:25,160
Speaker 3: I need another room do you go to?

1474
01:26:25,200 --> 01:26:27,760
Speaker 1: Which I say, well, why don't you clean up your room?

1475
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 3: Right? And that's the situation that we're in over and

1476
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:37,719
Speaker 3: over and over again. I mean examples everywhere. It's like, well,

1477
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:40,719
Speaker 3: we don't want to block people's site lines by letting

1478
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:45,519
Speaker 3: somebody build a four story building in town, so we

1479
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:49,080
Speaker 3: would like to build up on that hillside or in

1480
01:26:49,120 --> 01:26:53,679
Speaker 3: that migration area or in winter range because we can't

1481
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:59,360
Speaker 3: affect anybody who's lived here for thirty years. Park City, Utah. Right,

1482
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:03,400
Speaker 3: that is a fully a tinerant workforce. And all of

1483
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:06,160
Speaker 3: those houses like you go through, like I haven't been

1484
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:08,960
Speaker 3: there in years, but it's all like old mining house,

1485
01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:15,400
Speaker 3: single story, little tiny homes that are overwhelmingly like VRBO

1486
01:27:15,560 --> 01:27:21,840
Speaker 3: vacation rental properties. Right, It's like we can't ignore that

1487
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 3: problem and expect this new acreage.

1488
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:31,519
Speaker 2: Right, If you're going to do we should that should

1489
01:27:32,080 --> 01:27:34,439
Speaker 2: going to the public land should be towards the end

1490
01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:37,880
Speaker 2: of the resort, more of the last resort. But if

1491
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 2: you're going to do that, while you don't control short

1492
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:45,920
Speaker 2: term rentals, you don't control the number of second homeowners. Again,

1493
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:47,680
Speaker 2: it's not going to be sustainable because we're going to

1494
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:49,639
Speaker 2: be in the same place because there'll be more people.

1495
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 2: They're going to take by this land and use it

1496
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:55,880
Speaker 2: for second homeowners got address the affordable housing. It looks

1497
01:27:55,880 --> 01:27:59,360
Speaker 2: like Bozman's building a lot of apartments. Are those deed restricted?

1498
01:27:59,400 --> 01:27:59,840
Speaker 2: Any of them?

1499
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:03,040
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. It was just the last couple that

1500
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:05,639
Speaker 3: have been in the paper have been in the downtown core,

1501
01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:08,880
Speaker 3: Like there's a conversion of a Senior citizen center that

1502
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:12,160
Speaker 3: would allow a lot more people to live downtown. People

1503
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:13,280
Speaker 3: are up in arms over that.

1504
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:16,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't understand getting up arms over that. Man.

1505
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:18,000
Speaker 3: It's just like, what the hell.

1506
01:28:18,040 --> 01:28:19,679
Speaker 1: It's a great place to put people, right.

1507
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:23,360
Speaker 3: We just don't listen. We're all here because we love

1508
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:26,639
Speaker 3: the out out of doors, but we'd rather construct more

1509
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,479
Speaker 3: stuff on the out of doors if it affects my

1510
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:30,320
Speaker 3: parking downtown.

1511
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:32,599
Speaker 1: We're getting terribly local.

1512
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:36,760
Speaker 5: Now, you did you brought up land swaps?

1513
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:37,559
Speaker 3: Did you.

1514
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 5: Administrate much of that, because that's a big thing that

1515
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:45,439
Speaker 5: you know, we talked about, especially now with corner crossing,

1516
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 5: you know, back up in the news where it sure

1517
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:51,960
Speaker 5: seems like you could like just quickly make a bunch

1518
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:56,480
Speaker 5: of these quick moves and consolidate the private people's spots

1519
01:28:56,520 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 5: and then you know, not have the private in holdings

1520
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 5: on the forest, the LM and everybody would be better off.

1521
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:05,920
Speaker 5: How how come that's not easier to pull off?

1522
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:10,920
Speaker 2: You said quickly, And I was thinking, there's a sixty

1523
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:14,960
Speaker 2: for we have a sixty four step process for land exchanges.

1524
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:19,439
Speaker 2: The land deals are hard. You got to praise everyone,

1525
01:29:19,479 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 2: and you know you gotta so that just you know,

1526
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 2: title work, that just takes time. And when you're using

1527
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 2: you know, checkerboarded land or trying to consolidate. I think

1528
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:30,800
Speaker 2: you're right on. I think we need to do more

1529
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:34,400
Speaker 2: of it. It's getting a little harder. People aren't getting

1530
01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:36,599
Speaker 2: punkier about it. Used to be like, oh, you give

1531
01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:40,040
Speaker 2: this little part up in town to someone and then

1532
01:29:40,040 --> 01:29:42,000
Speaker 2: you get all this acreage or close the town and

1533
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:45,479
Speaker 2: everyone loves it. But now, just like we've been talking

1534
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:47,920
Speaker 2: about the whole, every every piece seems to matter. You

1535
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:48,920
Speaker 2: can't give that piece up.

1536
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:52,639
Speaker 3: Now we try finding like an apples to apples comparison.

1537
01:29:52,120 --> 01:29:55,160
Speaker 2: And then they're comparables and the values are changing so

1538
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 2: fast and so there it's getting harder. But I think

1539
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:04,000
Speaker 2: where Congress can help us do legislative, legislatively mandated ones

1540
01:30:04,040 --> 01:30:06,719
Speaker 2: where you don't have to It's like they tell you, okay,

1541
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:09,080
Speaker 2: now go figure out the acreage. But you're doing this

1542
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:14,080
Speaker 2: through legislation as opposed to when it's a discretionary action

1543
01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:16,160
Speaker 2: by a for supervisor. We have to go through the

1544
01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 2: public public benefit determination, which of course gets into values

1545
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 2: and all that stuff. But I think it's absolutely what

1546
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:27,040
Speaker 2: we need to do more of and that we could

1547
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:30,599
Speaker 2: get help legislatively. But they're tough. I mean, you guys

1548
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:33,920
Speaker 2: are heard of the one over in the Crazies and

1549
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:37,640
Speaker 2: with the Elstone Club and stuff, and it's pretty good exchange.

1550
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:39,880
Speaker 2: But there's some folks that don't like it.

1551
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:44,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean you're giving up Elk Habitat for

1552
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:46,840
Speaker 3: Mountain Goat habitat. Right is one way to look at it.

1553
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:48,360
Speaker 2: I don't know enough about it.

1554
01:30:48,640 --> 01:30:51,200
Speaker 3: We can't draw it can't drawn Mountain Goat tag, but

1555
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:54,759
Speaker 3: you can sure hunt over the counter Elk and the Crazies.

1556
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:58,080
Speaker 3: Durfy Hills would be another great one that was proposed

1557
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 3: for land exchange. I mean, that's that's a whole ecosystem

1558
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:05,080
Speaker 3: would be kind of a strong word, but it's a

1559
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:09,360
Speaker 3: whole region with its own elchord, all public, totally landlocked.

1560
01:31:10,280 --> 01:31:14,519
Speaker 3: You can fly in there and it's like but the

1561
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:21,080
Speaker 3: exchange for that is like Antelope Country, oh really right,

1562
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:24,400
Speaker 3: So like trying to find again, like find that apples

1563
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:28,160
Speaker 3: to apples comparable and and and then you have historical use.

1564
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:30,280
Speaker 3: You know, there's still plenty of folks of who have

1565
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:35,720
Speaker 3: uh hunted that place and traditionally hunted that place for

1566
01:31:35,800 --> 01:31:39,080
Speaker 3: decades and there just is not a comparable swap type

1567
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:39,360
Speaker 3: of thing.

1568
01:31:39,479 --> 01:31:42,760
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard propose. You know, when I get

1569
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:45,120
Speaker 1: that job, if I get to be the ANA many

1570
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:47,720
Speaker 1: part of what I'm going to look at and I

1571
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:52,160
Speaker 1: suggest the poor service adopt this is how much what

1572
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:56,840
Speaker 1: biomass does that piece of land host or support? An

1573
01:31:56,840 --> 01:32:03,599
Speaker 1: important word and in any swap, any swap would be

1574
01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:09,879
Speaker 1: are you gaining biomass that you're supporting or hosting?

1575
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:12,880
Speaker 4: Well, the White River National Forest supports the largest el

1576
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:14,960
Speaker 4: kurd in the world, so it'd be a big ass

1577
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:18,320
Speaker 4: biomass and that's how you help do it.

1578
01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:22,680
Speaker 2: And we support the largest biomass of elk hunters in

1579
01:32:22,720 --> 01:32:23,479
Speaker 2: the world. I think.

1580
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:26,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, Speaking of which, like what what uh like, what's

1581
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:29,439
Speaker 4: going to happen this fault when like if you could

1582
01:32:29,439 --> 01:32:32,840
Speaker 4: crystal ball it based on all the cuts that have

1583
01:32:32,920 --> 01:32:35,479
Speaker 4: been made, like when people are trying to get into

1584
01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:38,439
Speaker 4: their elk spot, Like is it like, are they going

1585
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:39,760
Speaker 4: to be able to get there? Is there going to

1586
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:42,559
Speaker 4: be safety issues when they do get there, Like it's.

1587
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 3: Going to be a COVID poop pandemic.

1588
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:46,799
Speaker 2: This is where I need to push all those fear buttons.

1589
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:49,000
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing is, this is another one. Man,

1590
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:50,680
Speaker 1: I hate to keep doing this. This is another one

1591
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:52,639
Speaker 1: that people are throwing out there that I'm not buying

1592
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 1: what I'm not buying that like that there's like an

1593
01:32:58,120 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 1: x extent that it's an existent crisis that the trails

1594
01:33:02,200 --> 01:33:04,440
Speaker 1: won't be cleared. I don't. I don't view it as existentially.

1595
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:07,599
Speaker 3: I think for let's say, like you know, I have

1596
01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:10,360
Speaker 3: a bunch of friends that are in this position where

1597
01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:15,400
Speaker 3: it's like young families. Their best way of getting out

1598
01:33:16,280 --> 01:33:21,639
Speaker 3: is through like established campgrounds with a camper.

1599
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,559
Speaker 1: That type of campgrounds is a real problem that.

1600
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:31,200
Speaker 2: Here I can tell we had a budget meeting, so

1601
01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:33,519
Speaker 2: we already knew we were going into this field season,

1602
01:33:33,560 --> 01:33:36,600
Speaker 2: we will have zero seasonal workforce, the people we just

1603
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:39,720
Speaker 2: hire temporary for the summer. So we knew that. So

1604
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:45,120
Speaker 2: that's zero is zero. Normally we would have fifty or

1605
01:33:45,120 --> 01:33:47,320
Speaker 2: sixty or something like that. So that's you know, it

1606
01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:50,240
Speaker 2: could be less people clear and trail and things like that.

1607
01:33:51,439 --> 01:33:55,559
Speaker 2: We fired you know these what would be like crew leaders,

1608
01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:58,599
Speaker 2: the people that are permanent, but they only work half

1609
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:02,599
Speaker 2: the year, and so that'll be problematic. Will it be

1610
01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:04,840
Speaker 2: like our people could go, oh my god, what happened?

1611
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:09,479
Speaker 2: I don't think. So are our road maintenance the road

1612
01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 2: maintenance budget on the White River when when I left

1613
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:14,559
Speaker 2: and we had a budget meeting because they signed the

1614
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:18,200
Speaker 2: continuing resolution, so we know what our budget's going to

1615
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:21,040
Speaker 2: be the rest of the year. Pretty much. Our road

1616
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:23,320
Speaker 2: maintenance budget we have twenty We have twenty eight hundred

1617
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:26,880
Speaker 2: miles in the road was zero, so that's how much.

1618
01:34:27,080 --> 01:34:29,640
Speaker 2: And normally we give that money and to the in

1619
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:32,439
Speaker 2: the agreements, to counties because they have better equipment, to

1620
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:35,040
Speaker 2: more people. And now we have a small we have

1621
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:38,599
Speaker 2: a greater and a three person crew. So we'll we'll

1622
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:42,160
Speaker 2: we'll clean the culverts, thatch blowout or whatever, beavers filling.

1623
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:43,439
Speaker 4: Have you got someone to do it?

1624
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:46,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have three people. We've lost two.

1625
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:49,360
Speaker 3: But so you for you folks and the White you

1626
01:34:49,479 --> 01:34:52,120
Speaker 3: recreationists and the forest over there. If you see this

1627
01:34:52,240 --> 01:34:55,080
Speaker 3: three person crew, I'm sure they'd really like to know

1628
01:34:55,240 --> 01:34:56,960
Speaker 3: the areas that also need work.

1629
01:34:57,040 --> 01:34:57,639
Speaker 2: That's right now.

1630
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:01,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure the road system feels custential is maybe too

1631
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:03,800
Speaker 1: big of a word, right, But the road system that

1632
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:06,200
Speaker 1: work feels to me like a real issue.

1633
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:08,559
Speaker 2: Right, But it's also something it's like one year, you

1634
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:11,360
Speaker 2: may not notice it, two years, three years, just like

1635
01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:16,160
Speaker 2: the road you know, just the way maintenance of infrastructure works.

1636
01:35:18,080 --> 01:35:22,439
Speaker 2: The recreation budget on the busiest recreation force in the country,

1637
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:25,360
Speaker 2: so discretionary. So we've got our people we paid for.

1638
01:35:25,479 --> 01:35:29,720
Speaker 2: But then like the clean toilets, the toilet contracts and

1639
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:34,120
Speaker 2: you know, toilet paper and whatever stuff was one hundred

1640
01:35:34,120 --> 01:35:36,400
Speaker 2: and forty thousand bucks for two and a half million

1641
01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:38,960
Speaker 2: acres and eighteen million people. Comes to about zero point

1642
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:42,439
Speaker 2: nine cents per visitor. If you're wondering, you kidding me, Yeah,

1643
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 2: So will it be?

1644
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 1: Is that intact.

1645
01:35:48,400 --> 01:35:52,639
Speaker 2: The budget the toilet paper budget? No, it's not. Literally,

1646
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:56,800
Speaker 2: we were we don't have enough money. We were looking

1647
01:35:56,840 --> 01:35:59,479
Speaker 2: at and I don't normally get involved with this, we're

1648
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:03,240
Speaker 2: like in the detail, but they were looking at. Normally

1649
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:06,160
Speaker 2: these sites are pumped three times a year. We're going

1650
01:36:06,200 --> 01:36:09,000
Speaker 2: to do them once. Well, those are it's not gonna

1651
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:12,559
Speaker 2: be great. So will people see things, yes, will it

1652
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:15,400
Speaker 2: be like you know, it's not going to be the

1653
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:19,320
Speaker 2: end of the world. I think depending on fire seasons

1654
01:36:19,360 --> 01:36:22,360
Speaker 2: and flood seasons and things like that, I think there'll

1655
01:36:22,400 --> 01:36:26,679
Speaker 2: be some change. I'm worried a lot. So when there's

1656
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:30,080
Speaker 2: a fire of any significance, there's what's called an agency administrator.

1657
01:36:30,080 --> 01:36:32,160
Speaker 2: It's one of us line officers. So if there's a

1658
01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:34,840
Speaker 2: fire on the White River or you know, on the

1659
01:36:35,080 --> 01:36:38,599
Speaker 2: on the Galloton, here the local line officers he had

1660
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:43,160
Speaker 2: made agency administrators and we we we have overall responsibility.

1661
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:46,960
Speaker 2: Even if a thousand firefighters come in, we're still overseeing them.

1662
01:36:46,960 --> 01:36:49,840
Speaker 2: We go through a ton of training and stuff. They

1663
01:36:49,880 --> 01:36:52,599
Speaker 2: do the work, but we set objectives. We you know,

1664
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:54,720
Speaker 2: things like that, here's what I want you to do

1665
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,600
Speaker 2: with this fire, because fire crew would come and just

1666
01:36:58,160 --> 01:37:00,320
Speaker 2: spend money and put it out. I mean, but you know,

1667
01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:04,200
Speaker 2: here's what resources. I want these houses protected as a priority.

1668
01:37:05,680 --> 01:37:08,080
Speaker 2: A lot of us that are retiring are the most

1669
01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:11,800
Speaker 2: experienced people doing that. You know, in our region in

1670
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:15,360
Speaker 2: Colorado we lost two of the three most experience. That

1671
01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:17,320
Speaker 2: won't matter if there's not a bad fire season. But

1672
01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:20,080
Speaker 2: if it is, that's the stuff that's going to add up.

1673
01:37:20,160 --> 01:37:23,679
Speaker 2: And so that's the stuff I'm worried about in the future.

1674
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:29,240
Speaker 2: I don't see a land sale real quick, but this

1675
01:37:29,320 --> 01:37:30,240
Speaker 2: stuff matters.

1676
01:37:33,320 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 1: Can I hit you with a thing I'm worried about. Yeah,

1677
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:37,240
Speaker 1: maybe you can tell me if this is a reasonable fear,

1678
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:41,080
Speaker 1: if you should sleep at night. I'm worried about this.

1679
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:51,400
Speaker 1: I could picture a for a supervisor in a left

1680
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:55,520
Speaker 1: leaning state. So let's say a forest supervisor in Washington,

1681
01:37:55,640 --> 01:38:02,320
Speaker 1: a forest supervisor in California says, fine, I'm closing my

1682
01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:06,760
Speaker 1: forest because I don't have the staff right and they

1683
01:38:06,840 --> 01:38:09,599
Speaker 1: use it to score political points. Is that possible?

1684
01:38:11,240 --> 01:38:15,599
Speaker 2: Before I left, we got explicit direction that shall not happen.

1685
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:20,040
Speaker 1: I was hoping that because I could picture someone saying, right,

1686
01:38:20,360 --> 01:38:21,960
Speaker 1: I'm taking my marbles and going home.

1687
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:28,360
Speaker 2: We call it the you know, the Washington Monument strategy.

1688
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:29,839
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not familiar.

1689
01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:33,400
Speaker 2: Park Service is masterful at this. Cut the park service

1690
01:38:33,439 --> 01:38:37,840
Speaker 2: budget close, oh yeah, yeah, and closing the Washington Monument

1691
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:39,760
Speaker 2: and make it screams and said what happened? And so

1692
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:42,640
Speaker 2: we've never done that, We've never taken that out. I

1693
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 2: think I think there's going to be some things that

1694
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:48,640
Speaker 2: are going to require it. Well, at least when I

1695
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 2: left a month ago. If you had if you could

1696
01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 2: show your budget couldn't support a campground being opened, it

1697
01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:58,719
Speaker 2: had to go all the way to the Secretary's office

1698
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:01,879
Speaker 2: to get approval. So that's gonna be hard to get

1699
01:39:02,520 --> 01:39:03,320
Speaker 2: a campground.

1700
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:07,320
Speaker 1: So they're like reviewing a campground site. We have. We

1701
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:10,600
Speaker 1: have this beautiful four visitors site here. We'd like to

1702
01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:11,719
Speaker 1: get back up and run.

1703
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:16,680
Speaker 2: If a four supervisor proposes to close any public facility,

1704
01:39:17,880 --> 01:39:19,400
Speaker 2: it's got to be run up to change. So I

1705
01:39:19,720 --> 01:39:20,760
Speaker 2: don't think you have to worry to.

1706
01:39:20,840 --> 01:39:24,760
Speaker 1: They're like they're anticipating and ten at because it would happen.

1707
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:26,680
Speaker 1: It's called the Washington Mall strands.

1708
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:31,080
Speaker 2: The Washington Monument was. Moment she closed the monuments, I'll close, Yeah,

1709
01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:33,920
Speaker 2: I have. The Park Service gets away with it. They've

1710
01:39:33,920 --> 01:39:36,439
Speaker 2: gotten away with it since nineteen ninety four. I mean,

1711
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:39,200
Speaker 2: you guys are all too young for that. But when

1712
01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:42,240
Speaker 2: the Republicans in ninety four took control the House for

1713
01:39:42,280 --> 01:39:47,080
Speaker 2: the first time in forty years, right, they they went

1714
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:51,760
Speaker 2: after everything, the contract with America and Newt Grich was

1715
01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:54,280
Speaker 2: the speaker of the house, and they were cutting and stuff,

1716
01:39:54,280 --> 01:39:58,000
Speaker 2: and they went after the Park Service pretty harshly, and

1717
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:00,000
Speaker 2: and they cut their budget pretty good. In the parks

1718
01:40:00,200 --> 01:40:04,280
Speaker 2: said fine. And Mike Finley was the superintendent of Yellowstone

1719
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:07,280
Speaker 2: here and he was he was like this with President Clinton.

1720
01:40:07,360 --> 01:40:09,479
Speaker 2: He was really close to him and Ted Turner and

1721
01:40:09,840 --> 01:40:14,280
Speaker 2: he eventually went out to run the Turner Foundation. But

1722
01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:17,160
Speaker 2: they just said, fine, we'll close the gates, We'll close

1723
01:40:17,160 --> 01:40:21,360
Speaker 2: the whole faithful and and uh and I mean you

1724
01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:23,280
Speaker 2: you know a little newspaper you get when you go

1725
01:40:23,280 --> 01:40:26,400
Speaker 2: into the park. After those budget cuts, like it was

1726
01:40:26,439 --> 01:40:31,240
Speaker 2: like Bambi's gonna die because of congressional bubjet cuts really

1727
01:40:31,439 --> 01:40:36,000
Speaker 2: really oh yeah, they and within a year and a

1728
01:40:36,040 --> 01:40:38,599
Speaker 2: half there was the give the Park Service as much

1729
01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:41,679
Speaker 2: money as you want, supported by Congressmen on both sides,

1730
01:40:41,720 --> 01:40:45,040
Speaker 2: and they got all the money they wanted. So but

1731
01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:47,519
Speaker 2: the Park Service has gates and you know they can

1732
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:52,240
Speaker 2: do that. You much better. And back then things weren't

1733
01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:54,400
Speaker 2: quite as well as they are politically, but it was

1734
01:40:54,439 --> 01:40:56,800
Speaker 2: awesome to watch. It was like, damn, how do you

1735
01:40:56,800 --> 01:40:58,960
Speaker 2: guys do that? As they cut our budgets and we

1736
01:40:59,000 --> 01:40:59,640
Speaker 2: didn't get int of it.

1737
01:40:59,720 --> 01:41:01,680
Speaker 3: Back that would be.

1738
01:41:01,760 --> 01:41:08,719
Speaker 5: My worry is that with lack of employees, there's probably

1739
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:12,800
Speaker 5: some amount of enforcement employees that will not be on

1740
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:15,960
Speaker 5: the ground anymore. And if you it kind of links

1741
01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:19,360
Speaker 5: up to the same thing with the maintenance, if that's

1742
01:41:19,400 --> 01:41:21,639
Speaker 5: not getting done well. I think we saw it once

1743
01:41:21,760 --> 01:41:23,800
Speaker 5: in an Eagle County and this is just what I

1744
01:41:23,840 --> 01:41:25,280
Speaker 5: was told. I don't know, and we're not going to

1745
01:41:25,320 --> 01:41:26,719
Speaker 5: bring up the spot with so I don't.

1746
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:27,160
Speaker 3: Want to burn it.

1747
01:41:27,360 --> 01:41:31,160
Speaker 5: But because the road couldn't be maintained and the ruts

1748
01:41:31,160 --> 01:41:33,439
Speaker 5: got too big, it was too dangerous, they just closed

1749
01:41:33,439 --> 01:41:35,760
Speaker 5: the road and so I don't know if that was

1750
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:36,599
Speaker 5: the actual reason.

1751
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:38,040
Speaker 3: But instead of like being.

1752
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:39,760
Speaker 5: Able to drive way up in there, you had to

1753
01:41:39,800 --> 01:41:41,559
Speaker 5: hike from the bottom, and it was a heck of

1754
01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:45,680
Speaker 5: a much longer hunt at that point. But if there's

1755
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:48,840
Speaker 5: no one to enforce that gate and people just start

1756
01:41:48,880 --> 01:41:50,640
Speaker 5: going around it, and then we end up with like

1757
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:53,280
Speaker 5: what you see down Alaska when you're flying into your

1758
01:41:53,280 --> 01:41:56,599
Speaker 5: moose spot and the ATV trails just go farther and

1759
01:41:56,640 --> 01:41:59,040
Speaker 5: farther every year, and the big swamp buggy trails go

1760
01:41:59,160 --> 01:42:00,439
Speaker 5: farther and farther every year.

1761
01:42:00,800 --> 01:42:02,120
Speaker 1: Zero enforcement action.

1762
01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:05,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, it could become like you know, wild West lawless

1763
01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:09,240
Speaker 4: stuff like people doing whatever they want. Right, Okay, so

1764
01:42:09,400 --> 01:42:10,920
Speaker 4: is that a real worry I should have.

1765
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm hesitating because I don't want to like, hey, this,

1766
01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:19,759
Speaker 2: I mean, you're to go out there and do bad stuff.

1767
01:42:19,960 --> 01:42:22,639
Speaker 3: It's happening right now. Yeah, right, I mean it's.

1768
01:42:22,439 --> 01:42:25,840
Speaker 2: A huge concern because what I've seen in the data

1769
01:42:25,840 --> 01:42:28,920
Speaker 2: shows the biggest atterrent is just boots on the ground.

1770
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:30,840
Speaker 2: Doesn't have to be a cop with a gun. Doesn't

1771
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:32,960
Speaker 2: that be just that they see a white truck or

1772
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:36,439
Speaker 2: back in the day, a green truck. People behave more.

1773
01:42:36,960 --> 01:42:39,080
Speaker 2: I mean just the way it is, and without those

1774
01:42:39,120 --> 01:42:41,559
Speaker 2: people out there, I absolutely think we're going to have

1775
01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:44,400
Speaker 2: that kind of there's no one to go to take

1776
01:42:44,439 --> 01:42:47,320
Speaker 2: care of it, and then people get frustrated, up, why

1777
01:42:47,360 --> 01:42:51,599
Speaker 2: aren't you doing anything about that? That's the public service

1778
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:55,160
Speaker 2: cycle I hate to see broken. And what I'm at

1779
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:59,760
Speaker 2: least at this stage and whatever you know, reform is

1780
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:02,559
Speaker 2: being done to our public land agencies.

1781
01:43:02,560 --> 01:43:05,880
Speaker 4: This is is there a law enforcement aspect to the

1782
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:08,320
Speaker 4: National Forest Service Like I know we used to see

1783
01:43:09,120 --> 01:43:12,639
Speaker 4: like BLM officers, like service rangers.

1784
01:43:13,280 --> 01:43:18,560
Speaker 2: There's there's law enforcement officers again, it's just part of

1785
01:43:18,600 --> 01:43:21,280
Speaker 2: the culture of our agency. We we just we're not

1786
01:43:21,360 --> 01:43:24,680
Speaker 2: the enforcement people. And so you know, our force the

1787
01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:27,280
Speaker 2: busiest in the country and in the most visitors and

1788
01:43:27,320 --> 01:43:29,280
Speaker 2: the inner state running right through the middle of it.

1789
01:43:30,520 --> 01:43:33,880
Speaker 2: There's now one when we're fully staffed, we have.

1790
01:43:33,840 --> 01:43:37,519
Speaker 1: Three so pistol pack and rangers.

1791
01:43:37,600 --> 01:43:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, fully you know vested or whatever they call.

1792
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,400
Speaker 3: The Yeah, they can actually arrest you, dat, they.

1793
01:43:44,320 --> 01:43:48,880
Speaker 2: Can rescue there. The state has they can enforce some

1794
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:53,160
Speaker 2: state law, you know, state violations, and yeah we have.

1795
01:43:53,400 --> 01:43:56,160
Speaker 3: Because you can also have a lot of people who

1796
01:43:56,160 --> 01:43:59,240
Speaker 3: have the authority to write citations.

1797
01:43:59,400 --> 01:44:03,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are called force protection officers of PLS. Where

1798
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:05,439
Speaker 2: you go to a forty r class you can learn

1799
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:08,400
Speaker 2: how to So that's good. A bunch of people we

1800
01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:11,840
Speaker 2: fired were the force protection officers, So that's too bad.

1801
01:44:11,840 --> 01:44:15,640
Speaker 2: So we got to get more people trained and so cumultively,

1802
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:16,760
Speaker 2: I'm worried about that.

1803
01:44:18,080 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 3: But it's not part of the budget discussion, especially after

1804
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:28,080
Speaker 3: this last uh. I don't know order that that Schultz

1805
01:44:28,120 --> 01:44:32,240
Speaker 3: sent out. I did like his letter to the Forest Service,

1806
01:44:32,280 --> 01:44:37,800
Speaker 3: by the way, that was good, but I imagine it would

1807
01:44:37,800 --> 01:44:40,160
Speaker 3: be a logical discussion to be like Okay, we have

1808
01:44:40,280 --> 01:44:43,719
Speaker 3: point nine cents per visitor to spend on toilet paper,

1809
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:48,120
Speaker 3: and we can only pump all these toilets wants. So

1810
01:44:48,160 --> 01:44:49,720
Speaker 3: what if we close.

1811
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:52,000
Speaker 2: Three of them and keep five open? Yeah?

1812
01:44:52,120 --> 01:44:52,240
Speaker 3: Right?

1813
01:44:53,240 --> 01:44:57,720
Speaker 2: More that That is what my predecessors are going to

1814
01:44:57,760 --> 01:44:59,960
Speaker 2: have to all of them. That's what's going on across

1815
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:03,639
Speaker 2: the country is the massive prioritization. Again, we're thirty six

1816
01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:05,920
Speaker 2: trillion dollars in debt as an age, as a nation,

1817
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:10,000
Speaker 2: were every aspect the government should be doing this, thirty

1818
01:45:10,040 --> 01:45:12,360
Speaker 2: six trillion dollars. If your kids are not my kid,

1819
01:45:12,439 --> 01:45:17,400
Speaker 2: and your kids your kids, they're going to deal with this, dude.

1820
01:45:17,960 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 3: But the thing is kind of dealing with it like that, right,

1821
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:26,240
Speaker 3: So prior Biden administration, you'll love this. Why because I said, Biden,

1822
01:45:31,960 --> 01:45:37,519
Speaker 3: you know the Infrastructure Reduction or sorry, Inflation Reduction Act.

1823
01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:40,840
Speaker 3: You know, I heard a lot of people inside the

1824
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:44,840
Speaker 3: Forest Service. I'm really nervous about this influx of cash

1825
01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:50,640
Speaker 3: because it didn't end up get getting spent on the

1826
01:45:51,120 --> 01:45:54,640
Speaker 3: boots on the ground stuff the people, the stuff the

1827
01:45:54,680 --> 01:45:58,880
Speaker 3: people can see and rely on, and it got spent

1828
01:45:59,080 --> 01:46:06,240
Speaker 3: in positions that are pretty far removed from the end user.

1829
01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:09,280
Speaker 2: No and that's absolutely true.

1830
01:46:09,400 --> 01:46:11,440
Speaker 3: And did those positions get cut.

1831
01:46:12,479 --> 01:46:15,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did. And a huge amount of that money

1832
01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:19,320
Speaker 2: is unspent. Yet, first of all, you throw any that

1833
01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:21,040
Speaker 2: kind of money, I mean you throw billion dollars at

1834
01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:24,280
Speaker 2: the Department of Defense or multi billion dollars in the

1835
01:46:24,280 --> 01:46:29,760
Speaker 2: case of infrat IRA and Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill those that

1836
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:33,400
Speaker 2: was a huge, multi billion dollar pump to the four service.

1837
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:36,320
Speaker 2: We're not set up to kind of spend that kind

1838
01:46:36,320 --> 01:46:38,439
Speaker 2: of money. Department to Defense. You give me a billion dollars,

1839
01:46:38,720 --> 01:46:42,800
Speaker 2: that's one plane, got it done. We're not set up

1840
01:46:42,840 --> 01:46:45,639
Speaker 2: for that. So that was just poor planning. And and

1841
01:46:45,760 --> 01:46:47,600
Speaker 2: now a lot of that money has not gotten to

1842
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:51,160
Speaker 2: the fuel's work. A lot of the gao A money,

1843
01:46:51,439 --> 01:46:55,400
Speaker 2: uh Great America Outdoors money, which you know your senator

1844
01:46:55,479 --> 01:47:00,559
Speaker 2: was big and Senator Danes was getting passed again. Influx

1845
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:02,559
Speaker 2: of money and we're not getting it out there to

1846
01:47:02,600 --> 01:47:05,840
Speaker 2: the ground fast enough. That's the restructuring. I'd like to

1847
01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:09,320
Speaker 2: see why, let's evaluate what's wrong. Well, we don't have

1848
01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:12,400
Speaker 2: people in the right places. Takes engineers. When you're redoing

1849
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:14,639
Speaker 2: a campground, you gotta have engineers. Well, this force doesn't

1850
01:47:14,680 --> 01:47:16,680
Speaker 2: have one, so it sits there, and it sits there,

1851
01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:22,200
Speaker 2: and it sits there. So there's there's plenty to fix

1852
01:47:22,360 --> 01:47:29,920
Speaker 2: and plenty to evaluate. I just I worry too as

1853
01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:32,920
Speaker 2: we keep going back and forth. This has been the

1854
01:47:32,920 --> 01:47:38,080
Speaker 2: biggest swing Trump Biden Trump. Now, like these eight years

1855
01:47:38,120 --> 01:47:41,439
Speaker 2: have been like why we are going so far? I

1856
01:47:41,439 --> 01:47:46,800
Speaker 2: don't even remember transitions between Bush and Obama. Yeah, they

1857
01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:49,960
Speaker 2: talked more about this, but they were seamless. Now we're

1858
01:47:50,000 --> 01:47:52,800
Speaker 2: getting these big swings, and I think that's like the

1859
01:47:52,800 --> 01:47:56,479
Speaker 2: world we live in, you know, is just more things.

1860
01:47:56,560 --> 01:47:59,080
Speaker 2: You know, in the Biden administration, we had to we

1861
01:47:59,120 --> 01:48:02,880
Speaker 2: had to label everything. Did it's climate change stuff? Yeah?

1862
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:07,680
Speaker 2: Oh really, I didn't know that clearing that trail was okay, well.

1863
01:48:06,880 --> 01:48:08,760
Speaker 1: We've talked about that a bunch. You had to take

1864
01:48:09,120 --> 01:48:11,599
Speaker 1: for a while. You had to find a way to

1865
01:48:11,640 --> 01:48:14,360
Speaker 1: do what you felt was necessary, but you had to

1866
01:48:14,360 --> 01:48:16,640
Speaker 1: rearticulate the reason behind it. And now it led it

1867
01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:21,280
Speaker 1: just some like some pretty crazy, like very elastic thinking

1868
01:48:21,439 --> 01:48:23,360
Speaker 1: that kind of became almost of self parody.

1869
01:48:23,400 --> 01:48:26,439
Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, and and and and the emphasis on

1870
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:30,000
Speaker 2: monuments and wilderness areas and stuff. I'm fall for that.

1871
01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:35,080
Speaker 2: But it's been done. It's been pushed by the the

1872
01:48:35,240 --> 01:48:38,760
Speaker 2: ends of the spectrums. And now you know in this

1873
01:48:38,840 --> 01:48:44,080
Speaker 2: administration it's it's gonna be ol and gas, livestock and timber.

1874
01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:46,720
Speaker 2: And there's just something just came out from in the

1875
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:49,960
Speaker 2: for Service where they wanted twenty five percent increase in

1876
01:48:50,040 --> 01:48:54,040
Speaker 2: timber production. And the Secretary has declared pretty much every

1877
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:58,360
Speaker 2: piece of National Force land in the country as an

1878
01:48:58,400 --> 01:49:04,960
Speaker 2: emergency and it's called Secretarials Emergency Declaration. And and what

1879
01:49:05,000 --> 01:49:11,640
Speaker 2: that can do is now that's designated the NEPA process.

1880
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:15,680
Speaker 2: The process changes considerably. There's only two alternatives. Either you

1881
01:49:15,760 --> 01:49:19,120
Speaker 2: do it. It's action or no action. So that cuts

1882
01:49:19,120 --> 01:49:22,639
Speaker 2: your analysis. Well, what about this alternative? What about this? Ah? See,

1883
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:26,960
Speaker 2: there you do it? You don't there's no objections. You

1884
01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:29,639
Speaker 2: know that internal process where someone can say I object

1885
01:49:29,680 --> 01:49:31,360
Speaker 2: to this, and we evaluate.

1886
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:31,120
Speaker 1: It and.

1887
01:49:32,720 --> 01:49:38,000
Speaker 2: We can implement it immediately. And so you either litigate

1888
01:49:38,080 --> 01:49:40,360
Speaker 2: to stop it immediately or it's going to go through

1889
01:49:40,479 --> 01:49:43,280
Speaker 2: and it's a round fuels forest health. I don't know

1890
01:49:43,280 --> 01:49:45,160
Speaker 2: if that's such a bad thing. It's just such a

1891
01:49:45,160 --> 01:49:46,120
Speaker 2: big swing, you know.

1892
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:49,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I offered my services on land swaps, correct.

1893
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:52,880
Speaker 1: I will also offer my services. I will come in

1894
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:56,719
Speaker 1: and unilaterly be red light green light on timber projects.

1895
01:49:56,960 --> 01:49:59,599
Speaker 1: And trust me, there are a lot of timber projects

1896
01:49:59,640 --> 01:50:00,840
Speaker 1: that I would give a green light too.

1897
01:50:00,840 --> 01:50:01,720
Speaker 2: I think you would too.

1898
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:03,000
Speaker 3: I am so.

1899
01:50:03,040 --> 01:50:04,400
Speaker 1: They're I'm gonna be busy.

1900
01:50:04,439 --> 01:50:08,240
Speaker 3: Because you know, it's a free market deal. Like I'm

1901
01:50:08,320 --> 01:50:11,919
Speaker 3: not lighting my hair on fire over the timber mandate

1902
01:50:12,479 --> 01:50:17,679
Speaker 3: because I mean, I don't in a lot of Montana,

1903
01:50:17,720 --> 01:50:21,479
Speaker 3: I don't see anything changing. There's a lot of chunks

1904
01:50:21,479 --> 01:50:24,080
Speaker 3: of forests that people walk into and they're like, oh

1905
01:50:24,160 --> 01:50:27,960
Speaker 3: my god, this should be cleaned up. Well, you're gonna

1906
01:50:28,000 --> 01:50:29,920
Speaker 3: have to pay out a pocket to have somebody coat

1907
01:50:30,000 --> 01:50:30,639
Speaker 3: go clean.

1908
01:50:30,760 --> 01:50:32,559
Speaker 2: Work a couple thousand bucks an acre?

1909
01:50:33,200 --> 01:50:33,639
Speaker 3: How much?

1910
01:50:33,840 --> 01:50:36,360
Speaker 2: Oh a couple grand for fuels? Work that just that

1911
01:50:36,479 --> 01:50:38,040
Speaker 2: where there's nothing merchantable at the.

1912
01:50:38,160 --> 01:50:40,360
Speaker 3: It's not merchantable, right, and we don't.

1913
01:50:40,120 --> 01:50:43,200
Speaker 2: Have that's a lot of money right for us.

1914
01:50:43,240 --> 01:50:47,320
Speaker 3: Like plus like like Missoula is such a great example, right,

1915
01:50:47,439 --> 01:50:49,840
Speaker 3: Like when Steve was going to school there, I was

1916
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:54,000
Speaker 3: growing up, right, we really had three lumber mills right there.

1917
01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:57,320
Speaker 3: We have zero now right right, There's still a lot

1918
01:50:57,320 --> 01:50:59,960
Speaker 3: of forest around Missoula, and a lot that I think

1919
01:51:00,040 --> 01:51:03,000
Speaker 3: people would really argue needs to be something's got to

1920
01:51:03,040 --> 01:51:03,479
Speaker 3: be done here.

1921
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:05,600
Speaker 2: I don't know this for a fact because I'm not

1922
01:51:05,640 --> 01:51:08,400
Speaker 2: an expert in the industry, but there were no tariffs

1923
01:51:08,400 --> 01:51:09,400
Speaker 2: on Canadian timber.

1924
01:51:10,680 --> 01:51:12,360
Speaker 1: No I thought there was. I mean they had it

1925
01:51:12,439 --> 01:51:13,559
Speaker 1: led to the emergency order.

1926
01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:16,120
Speaker 2: Uh huh. They at the end they pulled out a

1927
01:51:16,360 --> 01:51:21,200
Speaker 2: timber was lumber was not, oh tiff because we don't

1928
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:24,320
Speaker 2: have the capet. We can't produce enough lumber here in

1929
01:51:24,360 --> 01:51:26,599
Speaker 2: America to keep the builders going. So the builders must

1930
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:29,439
Speaker 2: have got someone and said, hey, don't do this because

1931
01:51:29,439 --> 01:51:30,960
Speaker 2: you're going to jack the prices through the.

1932
01:51:30,960 --> 01:51:33,439
Speaker 1: Real dude, there was recently a big There was real.

1933
01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:35,240
Speaker 1: They wrapped it up, but there was a big clear

1934
01:51:35,280 --> 01:51:39,840
Speaker 1: cut in There was a big clear cut in our

1935
01:51:40,080 --> 01:51:41,879
Speaker 1: area where we hang out in southeast Alaska.

1936
01:51:42,640 --> 01:51:44,240
Speaker 5: Oh, I thought, you're going to talk about my spot

1937
01:51:44,240 --> 01:51:45,640
Speaker 5: there in Wisconsin. No.

1938
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:49,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, he's a private clear cut.

1939
01:51:49,240 --> 01:51:50,519
Speaker 3: There's down like twelve trees.

1940
01:51:50,760 --> 01:51:54,400
Speaker 1: There was a big clear cut in southeast Alaska and

1941
01:51:55,920 --> 01:51:57,920
Speaker 1: it was tribal land. But there was a bunch of

1942
01:51:58,000 --> 01:52:00,000
Speaker 1: land swaps to put the package together.

1943
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So it wound up being that state moved.

1944
01:52:03,800 --> 01:52:07,360
Speaker 1: To federal, and federal move to tribal, and the tribal

1945
01:52:07,360 --> 01:52:09,479
Speaker 1: moved to state. Whatever the hell. And in the end

1946
01:52:09,479 --> 01:52:12,240
Speaker 1: they put together a cut and we got to wash

1947
01:52:12,280 --> 01:52:15,280
Speaker 1: this cut over the summer and or over many summers.

1948
01:52:15,640 --> 01:52:18,719
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you man, that would okay. Those trees

1949
01:52:19,640 --> 01:52:23,240
Speaker 1: go into the ocean cutting logs with the bark on

1950
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:27,320
Speaker 1: and then they go on to a barge and they

1951
01:52:27,360 --> 01:52:32,880
Speaker 1: do not touch American soil. Nope, that ship is over seas.

1952
01:52:33,520 --> 01:52:36,639
Speaker 1: It doesn't even get Like I mean, if some bark

1953
01:52:36,680 --> 01:52:39,120
Speaker 1: falls off in the ocean, that's as much processing as

1954
01:52:39,120 --> 01:52:41,719
Speaker 1: that wood is getting in the US. Dude, and it's gone.

1955
01:52:41,960 --> 01:52:46,400
Speaker 1: And then you hear about losing our capacity on lumber

1956
01:52:46,400 --> 01:52:51,080
Speaker 1: and stuff. It's like, dude, it's going over in the round. Yeah,

1957
01:52:51,400 --> 01:52:53,120
Speaker 1: it used to be and I don't even know where

1958
01:52:53,120 --> 01:52:54,880
Speaker 1: it again. Like you could look and be like, oh,

1959
01:52:54,920 --> 01:52:57,559
Speaker 1: that seems crazy, but I don't even know where to

1960
01:52:57,600 --> 01:52:59,400
Speaker 1: begin to start, Like I don't even know how to

1961
01:52:59,400 --> 01:52:59,800
Speaker 1: begin to.

1962
01:52:59,800 --> 01:53:02,360
Speaker 2: Dre I sing a problem like that, Well, it used

1963
01:53:02,360 --> 01:53:08,880
Speaker 2: Tonga's lumber used to not be They've approved special provisions

1964
01:53:08,880 --> 01:53:10,800
Speaker 2: to send it in the round overseas. It used to

1965
01:53:10,920 --> 01:53:13,880
Speaker 2: has to be manufactured at least on three sides, you know,

1966
01:53:14,520 --> 01:53:18,639
Speaker 2: in America, but the industry is in such dire straits

1967
01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:21,120
Speaker 2: up there. And yeah, I mean the reality is the

1968
01:53:21,160 --> 01:53:24,200
Speaker 2: old golf the industry cannot survive period.

1969
01:53:24,240 --> 01:53:29,679
Speaker 1: I mean, well, this same outfit, the same tribal court

1970
01:53:29,960 --> 01:53:34,200
Speaker 1: that did this clear cut. They they announced a ninety

1971
01:53:34,320 --> 01:53:36,599
Speaker 1: nine year moratorium on old growth.

1972
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:37,320
Speaker 2: Oh no kidding.

1973
01:53:37,400 --> 01:53:39,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if they'll stick to it. Yeah,

1974
01:53:39,880 --> 01:53:42,880
Speaker 1: there was internal strife. They announced a ninety nine year

1975
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:45,040
Speaker 1: moratorium and they closed that cut early.

1976
01:53:45,400 --> 01:53:46,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.

1977
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:50,880
Speaker 1: Uh, let me. I want to go ahead, and then

1978
01:53:50,880 --> 01:53:52,720
Speaker 1: I want to ask a last question. I just want

1979
01:53:52,760 --> 01:53:53,639
Speaker 1: you to clarify a point.

1980
01:53:53,880 --> 01:53:58,240
Speaker 2: I just wonder I've thought a lot about. I don't

1981
01:53:58,240 --> 01:54:00,880
Speaker 2: know if it'll be fixed, but you know how much

1982
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:05,920
Speaker 2: advocacy and environmental groups and stuff owned some of the extremes.

1983
01:54:05,960 --> 01:54:08,439
Speaker 2: And I think people have got to really look in

1984
01:54:08,479 --> 01:54:11,960
Speaker 2: the mirror and start saying, what are we really fighting against?

1985
01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:14,559
Speaker 2: Is it fighting against something we're really concerned about, or

1986
01:54:14,640 --> 01:54:16,200
Speaker 2: is it this is a really good way to keep

1987
01:54:16,240 --> 01:54:19,320
Speaker 2: our money flowing. Because this model has worked really good.

1988
01:54:19,439 --> 01:54:23,160
Speaker 2: You demonize, say this guy is falling, find an enemy,

1989
01:54:23,200 --> 01:54:25,559
Speaker 2: and then say send us money. We'll save m you

1990
01:54:25,600 --> 01:54:29,200
Speaker 2: know whatever. And I think about that a lot, and

1991
01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:31,400
Speaker 2: I think about if that can work on that in

1992
01:54:31,400 --> 01:54:34,000
Speaker 2: my retirement to try to, you know, bring more collaboration

1993
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:37,120
Speaker 2: to these discussions about about force management.

1994
01:54:37,240 --> 01:54:40,440
Speaker 1: But I want, I want to ask you a retired

1995
01:54:40,440 --> 01:54:46,280
Speaker 1: guy question. Yeah, in all these conversations that are happening

1996
01:54:46,320 --> 01:54:49,040
Speaker 1: right now, I just want to clarify a personal like

1997
01:54:49,080 --> 01:54:55,200
Speaker 1: a personal guiding strategy here in these conversations that we're having.

1998
01:54:55,280 --> 01:55:01,160
Speaker 1: I've tried to an issue and issues about federal management agencies.

1999
01:55:02,120 --> 01:55:06,720
Speaker 1: I've tried to be like to remain like somewhat cooperative

2000
01:55:07,600 --> 01:55:10,800
Speaker 1: because I've been very clear over the years about like

2001
01:55:10,880 --> 01:55:13,400
Speaker 1: the things that matter to me, right, things that matter

2002
01:55:13,480 --> 01:55:16,360
Speaker 1: to me is like hunting, fishing issues and wildlife habitat.

2003
01:55:16,360 --> 01:55:18,360
Speaker 1: And I joke about if I was the emperor of

2004
01:55:18,400 --> 01:55:20,320
Speaker 1: the country, what I would do, and it would be

2005
01:55:20,360 --> 01:55:24,760
Speaker 1: all wildlife all the time, right, And I would if

2006
01:55:24,760 --> 01:55:25,760
Speaker 1: I was the emperor of the country.

2007
01:55:25,760 --> 01:55:26,120
Speaker 3: But I'm not.

2008
01:55:26,200 --> 01:55:29,640
Speaker 1: No one's asking me to be. So I've tried to

2009
01:55:29,680 --> 01:55:34,320
Speaker 1: look at this issue and say, Okay, there are economic

2010
01:55:34,360 --> 01:55:39,200
Speaker 1: troubles in the country. We overspend, right, there's problems in

2011
01:55:39,240 --> 01:55:43,200
Speaker 1: the country at a macro level. So instead of saying

2012
01:55:43,320 --> 01:55:48,920
Speaker 1: that business as usual is the only acceptable path, I've

2013
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:51,040
Speaker 1: tried to like find a way in my mind to

2014
01:55:51,080 --> 01:55:54,280
Speaker 1: be a little more constructive and say, Okay, what are

2015
01:55:54,320 --> 01:55:56,680
Speaker 1: the objectives, what are we trying to achieve? What are

2016
01:55:56,720 --> 01:56:00,240
Speaker 1: the objective realities here? And how could it be done

2017
01:56:00,240 --> 01:56:05,080
Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't that is less negative for

2018
01:56:05,240 --> 01:56:10,520
Speaker 1: Americans in my community who use natural resources and and

2019
01:56:11,760 --> 01:56:15,680
Speaker 1: raise their families and spend their time and out, you know,

2020
01:56:16,040 --> 01:56:21,720
Speaker 1: in nature. Okay, with that rambling sort of precursor, what

2021
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:23,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to say, I'm just like setting this question up.

2022
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:26,280
Speaker 1: If someone had come to you, based on what you

2023
01:56:26,320 --> 01:56:28,760
Speaker 1: know about the Forest Service, if someone had come to

2024
01:56:28,800 --> 01:56:35,040
Speaker 1: you and said, we need to find efficiencies, like we

2025
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:38,720
Speaker 1: have to find efficiencies, we have to spend less money,

2026
01:56:39,160 --> 01:56:43,760
Speaker 1: we have to save money, and we don't want to

2027
01:56:43,920 --> 01:56:47,960
Speaker 1: impact the American taxpayer who's utilizing these lands. We want

2028
01:56:48,000 --> 01:56:51,840
Speaker 1: to have minimized impact on that taxpayer. Like our customer,

2029
01:56:52,280 --> 01:56:55,600
Speaker 1: so to speak. And they said to you, here's the

2030
01:56:56,480 --> 01:57:00,360
Speaker 1: ten percent cut package. Okay, bring me a ten percent

2031
01:57:00,440 --> 01:57:04,280
Speaker 1: cut package, drink, bring me a twenty percent cut package,

2032
01:57:04,840 --> 01:57:09,480
Speaker 1: bring me a thirty percent cut package. At what percent

2033
01:57:10,360 --> 01:57:13,040
Speaker 1: would you start to be like impossible.

2034
01:57:17,520 --> 01:57:21,120
Speaker 2: Wow, my colleagues are still working. Probably kill me when

2035
01:57:21,120 --> 01:57:30,760
Speaker 2: it hears thirty to forty and and here's what, here's.

2036
01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:33,680
Speaker 4: Why is that you like specifically for White River or

2037
01:57:33,840 --> 01:57:35,240
Speaker 4: for Service Service wide?

2038
01:57:35,360 --> 01:57:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? Uh, there are there are things that we need

2039
01:57:38,840 --> 01:57:41,920
Speaker 2: to come to grips with. Did an analysis before it's

2040
01:57:42,120 --> 01:57:48,000
Speaker 2: cool thing about computers and SharePoint sits and stuff? Did

2041
01:57:48,080 --> 01:57:52,760
Speaker 2: an analysis? Set so for Service has a Washington office

2042
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:58,760
Speaker 2: and has nine regional offices Denver, Missoula, California, Albuquerque, Salt Lake,

2043
01:57:58,880 --> 01:58:01,280
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And then there's a field. Then there's

2044
01:58:01,280 --> 01:58:08,520
Speaker 2: the forest, and then there's forest has districts. Thirty five

2045
01:58:08,720 --> 01:58:13,120
Speaker 2: percent of our employees, of all our employees non fire.

2046
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:17,000
Speaker 2: You got to set fireside because none of this discussion

2047
01:58:17,000 --> 01:58:20,520
Speaker 2: I didn to do with fire. Thirty five percent of

2048
01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:24,120
Speaker 2: our employees had a work at a Washington office or

2049
01:58:24,240 --> 01:58:30,839
Speaker 2: regional office. That seems high because people in Washington regional

2050
01:58:30,880 --> 01:58:34,520
Speaker 2: offices make a lot more than people on the ground.

2051
01:58:35,440 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 2: It's well over fifty percent of our salary costs as

2052
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:46,000
Speaker 2: an agency are not where we delivered this. It's not

2053
01:58:46,040 --> 01:58:52,760
Speaker 2: the mission delivery that alone. There's no company that can

2054
01:58:52,800 --> 01:58:55,520
Speaker 2: survive on those numbers. I mean service companies are different.

2055
01:58:55,560 --> 01:58:57,160
Speaker 2: But if you're producing something or if you have a

2056
01:58:57,200 --> 01:59:01,080
Speaker 2: service to deliver, I mean I know is really well.

2057
01:59:01,280 --> 01:59:03,960
Speaker 2: I know for a fact that if they put over

2058
01:59:04,040 --> 01:59:09,320
Speaker 2: fifty of their you know, veil resorts, our corporate office

2059
01:59:09,360 --> 01:59:13,760
Speaker 2: in Broomfield, it's on the mountain because that's where the

2060
01:59:13,800 --> 01:59:17,040
Speaker 2: money's made, that's where the mission is delivered. So there's

2061
01:59:17,080 --> 01:59:20,920
Speaker 2: a problem. I think I've said a couple of times

2062
01:59:21,160 --> 01:59:23,840
Speaker 2: we got upside down and is where our mission was?

2063
01:59:23,920 --> 01:59:27,200
Speaker 2: We just delivering the mission and all the things you

2064
01:59:27,240 --> 01:59:30,280
Speaker 2: want to protect from your constituents our communities are clean

2065
01:59:30,320 --> 01:59:33,120
Speaker 2: water and all that stuff that all happens on the

2066
01:59:33,160 --> 01:59:36,760
Speaker 2: ground for cheap now fuels projects and stuff are get

2067
01:59:36,800 --> 01:59:40,200
Speaker 2: expensive when you you know. The other thing I think

2068
01:59:40,240 --> 01:59:43,200
Speaker 2: you have to look at is big things. You know

2069
01:59:43,240 --> 01:59:46,840
Speaker 2: we have and again my colleagues would kill me. We

2070
01:59:46,920 --> 01:59:50,560
Speaker 2: have a huge research department in the force. VICE created

2071
01:59:50,640 --> 01:59:54,960
Speaker 2: because when the back then there was not a single

2072
01:59:55,040 --> 01:59:58,200
Speaker 2: university in the country that researched any natural resource or

2073
01:59:58,240 --> 02:00:01,040
Speaker 2: forest re issues. So we created we have a state

2074
02:00:01,040 --> 02:00:05,600
Speaker 2: in private division a whole thousands of people because there

2075
02:00:05,600 --> 02:00:10,720
Speaker 2: were no state foresters. Now every state in the country

2076
02:00:10,760 --> 02:00:14,160
Speaker 2: has a whole state forestry division, but yet those were

2077
02:00:14,640 --> 02:00:21,280
Speaker 2: legacied in over years and years, so between thirty it's

2078
02:00:21,280 --> 02:00:24,320
Speaker 2: just I just believe in is the people on the ground.

2079
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:26,680
Speaker 2: And I'm biased because that's work I did. Do we

2080
02:00:26,720 --> 02:00:30,959
Speaker 2: need policy? People? Do we need you know? You know, cio,

2081
02:00:31,760 --> 02:00:38,720
Speaker 2: But that's the cheap part of the job. So I,

2082
02:00:40,520 --> 02:00:42,880
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what's going to happen. You

2083
02:00:42,880 --> 02:00:44,360
Speaker 2: guys don't know what's going to happen. It's kind of

2084
02:00:44,360 --> 02:00:47,320
Speaker 2: crazy times in our country. But I always tell people

2085
02:00:48,200 --> 02:00:51,760
Speaker 2: public lands are not in the constitution. Nowhere in the

2086
02:00:51,760 --> 02:00:55,440
Speaker 2: constitution are they, and I and yet I believe it

2087
02:00:55,520 --> 02:00:59,520
Speaker 2: is one of the great experiments in democracy. No other

2088
02:00:59,560 --> 02:01:01,400
Speaker 2: country the world says, here's what we're gonna do. We're

2089
02:01:01,400 --> 02:01:04,080
Speaker 2: gonna take whatever seven percent or whatever the percentage of

2090
02:01:04,080 --> 02:01:06,680
Speaker 2: our country's land base. We're gonna put it in public

2091
02:01:06,720 --> 02:01:12,480
Speaker 2: trust manage for everyone, owned by everyone. And it what

2092
02:01:12,560 --> 02:01:16,280
Speaker 2: an experiment in democracy. And so far one hundred and

2093
02:01:16,320 --> 02:01:19,520
Speaker 2: twenty five years, it's we're doing all right. But I

2094
02:01:19,680 --> 02:01:24,240
Speaker 2: remind people it's not in the constitution. There's no guarantee

2095
02:01:24,880 --> 02:01:29,520
Speaker 2: that it can stay and so the endgame is stay involved,

2096
02:01:29,720 --> 02:01:32,160
Speaker 2: pay attention. I guess I'm not ready to light my

2097
02:01:32,200 --> 02:01:33,800
Speaker 2: hair and fire and say the public lands are going away.

2098
02:01:33,840 --> 02:01:36,560
Speaker 2: They're gonna sell them all. I'm going to pay attention now,

2099
02:01:36,760 --> 02:01:39,040
Speaker 2: obviously because my back. But I think your listener should

2100
02:01:39,040 --> 02:01:41,360
Speaker 2: pay attention. I think there are things in the system

2101
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:46,040
Speaker 2: now that require, especially for hunters and anglers and people

2102
02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:49,360
Speaker 2: who enjoy it the way we do, pay attention. This

2103
02:01:49,400 --> 02:01:53,720
Speaker 2: is a time to pay attention, you know, get involved

2104
02:01:53,760 --> 02:01:56,000
Speaker 2: with that NEPA process a little more. Make sure your

2105
02:01:56,080 --> 02:01:59,760
Speaker 2: voices are heard, because there is no guarantee in the

2106
02:02:00,000 --> 02:02:04,520
Speaker 2: institution that this crazy experiment will continue.

2107
02:02:06,800 --> 02:02:09,360
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on, man, pleasure to be here. What

2108
02:02:09,400 --> 02:02:10,880
Speaker 1: are your hobbies? What are you going to do now?

2109
02:02:12,040 --> 02:02:18,080
Speaker 2: Turkey hunting starts Saturday, So you know I love to

2110
02:02:18,440 --> 02:02:21,840
Speaker 2: hunt and fish and and get outside.

2111
02:02:22,240 --> 02:02:25,040
Speaker 4: You must stay where you're at in Colorado for a while.

2112
02:02:25,480 --> 02:02:27,000
Speaker 3: I mean you're sitting here right now because you're on

2113
02:02:27,040 --> 02:02:27,760
Speaker 3: a fishing.

2114
02:02:27,560 --> 02:02:34,040
Speaker 2: Tour, right yeah, and visit some friends tour. But yeah,

2115
02:02:34,080 --> 02:02:37,920
Speaker 2: my brothers and I you know, I'm from Wisconsin and

2116
02:02:38,280 --> 02:02:41,840
Speaker 2: uh and listening to you talk about how you grew

2117
02:02:41,880 --> 02:02:45,760
Speaker 2: up with your brothers identical. I mean right, Yeah, we

2118
02:02:45,760 --> 02:02:48,160
Speaker 2: were just across the pond from you, the Wisconsin side,

2119
02:02:48,240 --> 02:02:51,080
Speaker 2: and uh, we're building. We're almost done. We're building the

2120
02:02:51,120 --> 02:02:54,720
Speaker 2: cabin in the up Oh yeah, up in west of

2121
02:02:54,760 --> 02:02:57,560
Speaker 2: waters Meet. That's where we went as kids. That you know,

2122
02:02:57,600 --> 02:03:00,640
Speaker 2: there was with six kids in the cop salary. There

2123
02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:04,880
Speaker 2: was no Disneyland vacations. So yeah, we're just they're just

2124
02:03:04,920 --> 02:03:07,560
Speaker 2: about don I write the checks. I write checks to

2125
02:03:07,560 --> 02:03:08,720
Speaker 2: pay for things because they do.

2126
02:03:08,880 --> 02:03:09,760
Speaker 1: They do the work.

2127
02:03:09,880 --> 02:03:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're there. I mean they're back there and

2128
02:03:12,240 --> 02:03:15,560
Speaker 2: so be doing that. And I don't know. I'm not

2129
02:03:15,680 --> 02:03:19,560
Speaker 2: ready to not be involved. I've gotten some calls about

2130
02:03:19,560 --> 02:03:23,320
Speaker 2: some work and we'll see. I'm gonna take two months

2131
02:03:23,320 --> 02:03:28,280
Speaker 2: to see what's out there. And then I'd love this

2132
02:03:28,320 --> 02:03:30,400
Speaker 2: stuff too much. I like to mix it up too much.

2133
02:03:30,480 --> 02:03:34,560
Speaker 1: And man, I well, just the fact that you're the

2134
02:03:34,640 --> 02:03:39,760
Speaker 1: fact that you're passionate about the forest, you're passionate about

2135
02:03:39,800 --> 02:03:42,840
Speaker 1: public lands, you put in a lot of years. Yeah,

2136
02:03:42,920 --> 02:03:45,800
Speaker 1: you have opinions. I can't vet whether all of your opinions.

2137
02:03:45,840 --> 02:03:48,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you know enough, you know more than I know,

2138
02:03:48,480 --> 02:03:50,520
Speaker 1: so I can't say that all your opinions are right

2139
02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:50,960
Speaker 1: or wrong.

2140
02:03:51,080 --> 02:03:52,360
Speaker 2: Or whatever, but.

2141
02:03:54,000 --> 02:03:56,720
Speaker 1: Just the fact that you care. I would sure hope

2142
02:03:56,720 --> 02:04:01,120
Speaker 1: that people that need to start the people that do

2143
02:04:01,200 --> 02:04:03,320
Speaker 1: need to make decisions about where money goes and what

2144
02:04:03,360 --> 02:04:07,280
Speaker 1: money is there. If I knew that they were reaching

2145
02:04:07,320 --> 02:04:09,640
Speaker 1: out to guys like you to get an opinion that

2146
02:04:09,680 --> 02:04:12,800
Speaker 1: they could give an honest way. Now that you're not

2147
02:04:12,840 --> 02:04:14,520
Speaker 1: there anymore, I would be like, well, that sounds like

2148
02:04:14,520 --> 02:04:17,840
Speaker 1: a good idea to me. So hopefully some conversations will

2149
02:04:17,880 --> 02:04:21,160
Speaker 1: happen for you, you know, where someone can say like, well,

2150
02:04:21,160 --> 02:04:22,560
Speaker 1: now I can tell you what I actually think, and

2151
02:04:22,560 --> 02:04:24,360
Speaker 1: here's what I think, right, and no one's going to

2152
02:04:24,440 --> 02:04:26,680
Speaker 1: fire me for it.

2153
02:04:27,480 --> 02:04:28,040
Speaker 2: Good feeling.

2154
02:04:28,240 --> 02:04:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, we always have a hard time having

2155
02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:33,200
Speaker 1: agency people on the show because they're so paranoid. But

2156
02:04:33,200 --> 02:04:36,080
Speaker 1: it's nice to have the Poe like you're hearing a

2157
02:04:36,080 --> 02:04:37,280
Speaker 1: post paranoid sense.

2158
02:04:37,400 --> 02:04:39,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I would have come on and said most

2159
02:04:39,480 --> 02:04:42,400
Speaker 2: of this while I was working. That's what I got

2160
02:04:42,400 --> 02:04:46,560
Speaker 2: my reputation for, although I would have got in trouble,

2161
02:04:46,600 --> 02:04:50,920
Speaker 2: but you know, not fired. But I don't think what

2162
02:04:50,560 --> 02:04:52,560
Speaker 2: I had to say was all that controversial.

2163
02:04:52,600 --> 02:04:53,560
Speaker 1: You're not saying it, You're not.

2164
02:04:54,360 --> 02:04:57,360
Speaker 2: I'm not hacking on anyone. I just I think you know.

2165
02:04:57,360 --> 02:04:59,320
Speaker 2: There's changes coming, and some of them are good, some

2166
02:04:59,360 --> 02:05:01,320
Speaker 2: of them. I don't be here far.

2167
02:05:02,200 --> 02:05:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk to the guys that are

2168
02:05:04,720 --> 02:05:12,080
Speaker 1: like that recognize a reality and recognize how can we

2169
02:05:12,120 --> 02:05:14,480
Speaker 1: do this in the in the best way possible and

2170
02:05:14,560 --> 02:05:17,919
Speaker 1: not in ways that are kind of like ham handed

2171
02:05:19,240 --> 02:05:22,280
Speaker 1: knee jerk reactions. So thanks man, you bet.

2172
02:05:22,360 --> 02:05:23,160
Speaker 2: It's good to be here.

2173
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:24,880
Speaker 1: Appreciate it, Thanks for coming on.

2174
02:05:25,320 --> 02:05:25,920
Speaker 3: Thanks Scott,