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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. They

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Speaker 1: called me Ben. We are joined with our super producer,

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Speaker 1: Paul the Ace decond. Most importantly, you are you. You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know we're going into. I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: this off airmat We're going into a bit of a

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Speaker 1: pyramid scheme today, but not the not the way we

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Speaker 1: ordinarily do. Oh god, okay, yes we are. We're going

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Speaker 1: into an actual pyramid scheme where in a scheme of pyramids,

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Speaker 1: scheme about a pyramid, several schemes in fact. So in

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Speaker 1: an earlier episode, you and I explored the stories of

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Speaker 1: non Egyptian pyramids. Do you remember that one. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: were all over the world, places where you probably wouldn't

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Speaker 1: expect to find pyramids. Sure, even if you are a

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Speaker 1: seasoned archaeologist. Right, It's true that while most people, at

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Speaker 1: least here in the West, associate pyramids with the Valley

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Speaker 1: of Kings in ancient Egypt. You know, the huge pyramid

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Speaker 1: of Giza and stuff. The world has tons of other

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Speaker 1: smaller similar structures. Yeah, you also are you associate the

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Speaker 1: pyramid with a rigid structure in a way built built

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Speaker 1: out of some sort of stone or block, where you

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Speaker 1: it's highly defined. But then you get other things like

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Speaker 1: cigarettes that you find throughout the world, especially in places

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Speaker 1: like Central and South America. You got mounds in North America.

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Speaker 1: You can find those all over the place. Even here

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Speaker 1: in Georgia you can find some different kinds of mounds. Um,

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Speaker 1: you can find them in Europe too. Yeah. In fact,

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Speaker 1: structures similar to pyramids have been found not just in Europe,

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Speaker 1: not just in Mesoamerica and North America, but in Indonesia, Peru, India,

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Speaker 1: the Roman Empire, uh Sudan, in the Kingdom of Nubia, Greece, Nigeria,

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Speaker 1: all these other places that you would not normally expect

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Speaker 1: to be home to pyramids. In fact, we could likely say,

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Speaker 1: if there's a land mass that you think does not

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Speaker 1: have pyramids on it, you're probably wrong, unless we're talking

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Speaker 1: about Antarctico, which is a different episode. We've read the mails.

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Speaker 1: We will get to it. I wonder if this is

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Speaker 1: not something that I have researched, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you have either, But pyramids on islands, I wonder

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Speaker 1: how common that is because it seems like it would

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Speaker 1: be difficult to find just the raw materials to make

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Speaker 1: a pyramid true? True? Uh? And would those be more

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Speaker 1: of the mound type thing is given the difficulties of

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Speaker 1: creating large works of stone, and most islands, other than

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Speaker 1: the Rapa Nui in Easter Island, that was an enormous undertaking.

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Speaker 1: They also apparently the people destroyed their economy in pursuit

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Speaker 1: of these um Such a fascinating tragic story. But it's

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Speaker 1: a good point, Matt. The glib answer to that question,

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Speaker 1: where the glib deflection rather is well, isn't a continent

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Speaker 1: just a large island? I don't. We don't think that flies, folks.

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Speaker 1: We think there is a size limit to what should

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Speaker 1: be termed an island. And as we're going to find out,

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Speaker 1: there are many ways to build a pyramid like structure,

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Speaker 1: and one of them is just to take the earth

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Speaker 1: that exists there and basically press it as hard as

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Speaker 1: you can to create a structure. And quite a few

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Speaker 1: pyramids are exactly that. They are pressed rammed earth, and

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Speaker 1: for a long time, there were tons of legends about

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Speaker 1: pyramids in one of the most mysterious parts of the world.

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Speaker 1: At least two early westerners that as China, this vast

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Speaker 1: continent so far to the east, so distant, that legend

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Speaker 1: and fact we're treated equally because no one could prove

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Speaker 1: one or the other, and they certainly intermingle, and it

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Speaker 1: was difficult to figure out what's what. Yeah, well, I

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Speaker 1: mean there were legends that that China had these ancient,

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Speaker 1: ancient pyramids that were around long before any other structure,

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Speaker 1: that were perhaps hidden for some reason, right hidden from

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Speaker 1: the rest of the world. And this idea makes sense

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Speaker 1: when we look at the historical context of trade restrictions

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Speaker 1: and travel restrictions in China for Westerners, you know, like

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Speaker 1: the secret of the silk worm or silk manufacturing. It

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Speaker 1: seemed very reasonable to people that, of course the civilization

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Speaker 1: would have more secrets, you know, that's just what they

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Speaker 1: do apparently, And and the ancient secrets are some of

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Speaker 1: the most fascinating, right because the ones that especially gosh,

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Speaker 1: ancient hidden secrets, that's just like perfect, It's the perfect

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Speaker 1: thing for any mystery novel, for any anyone who's even

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Speaker 1: inclined to want to explore those regions of their own mind. Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And I know when we say ancient hidden secrets, many

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Speaker 1: people may think, well, what are you guys gonna go

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Speaker 1: full history channel on me here? Not really, but we

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Speaker 1: do have to point out that there are so many

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Speaker 1: real examples of ancient hidden secrets, often tied to religions,

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Speaker 1: to mystery religions, right, and so it is completely reasonable

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Speaker 1: if we're a person who's living in these ages past,

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Speaker 1: it's completely reasonable for us to assume that this legend

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Speaker 1: of pyramids is true. However, things change here and we

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Speaker 1: have to start with the folklore. So here here are

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Speaker 1: the facts. After these legends have been established, and they

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Speaker 1: are pretty well insulated into the world of Western folklore

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Speaker 1: as kind of footnotes. There's not a ton of exploration

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Speaker 1: or literature about them. Things change when a modern sighting occurs.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen twelve, there's a trader and a travel agent

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Speaker 1: by the name of fred Meyer Schroeder who is the

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Speaker 1: first modern Westerner to record a sighting of a pyramid

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Speaker 1: and the Shansi province of the country of China. So

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Speaker 1: what happens. It's twelve, which means he's probably not flying right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's got one of those hats, you know, that that

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Speaker 1: you find in old movies the large explorer has. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily, but but he's walking. He's got a guide

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Speaker 1: with him who happened to be a Buddhist monk. And

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Speaker 1: then he sees way off in the distance. He's not

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Speaker 1: really sure what it is, but he kind of squints

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Speaker 1: a little bit maybe, and he thinks, oh, that's a

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Speaker 1: that's a pyramid, and they're all these other little structures

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Speaker 1: around it. WHOA what am I looking at here? And

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Speaker 1: we have a quote, Yes, he says, let's see, he's

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Speaker 1: an old timey American. It was even more on canny

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Speaker 1: than if we had found it in the wilderness. About

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Speaker 1: those pyramids were to some extent exposed to the eyes

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Speaker 1: of the world, but still totally unknown in the western world. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: so the and just the remarkable thing, at least in

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Speaker 1: his eyes, with this discovery is that they're just kind

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Speaker 1: of sitting there. And if you happen to be walking

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Speaker 1: along where he was walking along, or maybe even flying

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Speaker 1: a plane in that area, well yeah, or you know,

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Speaker 1: in the air of for some reason, in a limp

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Speaker 1: even or a hot air balloon, balloon. You're gonna see

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Speaker 1: this thing and it's just sitting there and it would

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Speaker 1: be very difficult to cover up the fact that it existed. Right.

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Speaker 1: And by comparison, there are people in the modern day

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Speaker 1: who experienced a similar fascination when they attempt to observe

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Speaker 1: spy satellites, right, because they're publicly un acknowledged. No one's

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Speaker 1: supposed to know about them, but you can't really hide

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Speaker 1: them based still blink, or you couldn't for a while, right,

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Speaker 1: So it's just inversed as far as elevation and sit Yeah, sightline. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not one to what, but it's still it's it's

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Speaker 1: a pretty I don't know, it's somewhere between hilarious and fascinating.

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Speaker 1: But it's important to know it here that fred Meyer

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Speaker 1: Schroeder is an actual person. So in a lot of

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Speaker 1: these early explorer stories and tales like the idea of

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Speaker 1: an ancient civilization hidden in the Grand Canyon, what we

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Speaker 1: find is that the person who is our reporter or

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Speaker 1: eye witness for this stuff often turns out to be

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Speaker 1: the pseudonym for a unscrupulous journalist or an editor who

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Speaker 1: wants to get people excited However, there's a great book

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Speaker 1: you can read. There's an okay book you can read

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Speaker 1: called Guns Golden Caravans. The Extraordinary Life and Times of

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Speaker 1: Fred Meyer Schroeder. It's back in u written by him. No,

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Speaker 1: it's written by Robert Onney Easton, and Robert Easton writes

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Speaker 1: this biography, which is based on primary sources in first person,

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Speaker 1: which is I would say that put me off a

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Speaker 1: bit about just just reading a first person biography is

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Speaker 1: it's a little weird to me. But it does go

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Speaker 1: through the life and times of this guy, So we

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Speaker 1: do know that he is real. We do know that well,

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Speaker 1: he saw something. Maybe it was just pyramid, like you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe it was a structure that appeared to be a

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Speaker 1: pyramid from that distance from right. So one of the

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Speaker 1: initial questions, some of the more skeptical of us in

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Speaker 1: the crowd may be asking, is what's the difference between

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Speaker 1: what looks like a pyramid in in a close to

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Speaker 1: mid distance and a mountain? You know, given the right terrain,

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Speaker 1: a mountain could look pyramid s just a hill maybe

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Speaker 1: or just a hill. What's what's the difference be that?

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Speaker 1: As it may. Schroeder goes on to have many adventures,

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Speaker 1: and our story leaves him. It jumps to there's a

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Speaker 1: US Air pilot named James Gosman on the return leg

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Speaker 1: of a supply run from China to India. And during

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Speaker 1: this run, just to imagine the cartography here, during this flight,

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Speaker 1: they leave from a position in China to supply arms

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Speaker 1: or food other various sunjuries to a spot in India

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Speaker 1: and it's a round trip things, so they fly back

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Speaker 1: to China. This can be dangerous because there's not a

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Speaker 1: huge margin of error for the fuel tank. They have

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Speaker 1: to go over something called the Burma bump, which may

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Speaker 1: be familiar to people who have looked into night in

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Speaker 1: this era of time in this part of the world.

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Speaker 1: So the Burma bumps a problem. The guys flying back

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Speaker 1: to China after dropping off these supplies, and due to

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Speaker 1: engine trouble, he has to lower his altitude, so he

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Speaker 1: was much lower than he would have normally at this

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Speaker 1: point in the trip. And that's when things get kind

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Speaker 1: of weird. Yeah, he uh again. Very similarly, he sees

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Speaker 1: what he believes to be a pyramid, and this is

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Speaker 1: no ordinary pyramid to him. This thing is huge, he said,

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Speaker 1: it's got to be bigger than the pyramids in Egypt,

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Speaker 1: and it must be built of some um sparkling white

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Speaker 1: marble or polished stone. And why does it have uh,

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Speaker 1: why does I have jewels encrusting the capstone? What the

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Speaker 1: hell is going on? But of course he's still got

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Speaker 1: to land his playing, so he makes a note of it.

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Speaker 1: He flies back over and he is convinced. We do

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Speaker 1: have to say in his defense here or in defense

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Speaker 1: of his account. He is a professional pilot, so he

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Speaker 1: is familiar with how things appear from the air. He

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Speaker 1: gets the concept of perspective and in the various factors

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Speaker 1: that could influence his vision because he has to rely

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Speaker 1: on this vision. He has to rely on this vision

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Speaker 1: in order to stay alive in the air. So he

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Speaker 1: is one of the most reliable witnesses possible at this point.

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Speaker 1: And he's not the only person who sees this. No,

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Speaker 1: So that was ninety five when James Gosman saw it.

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Speaker 1: Then two years later, March nineteen, Colonel Maurice Sheehan he uh,

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Speaker 1: he's the Far Eastern director of the trans World Airline.

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Speaker 1: He recounted a sighting that ended up in the New

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Speaker 1: York Times. Actually his his recounting. And we have another quote,

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Speaker 1: would you do the honors? Absolutely. I flew around a

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Speaker 1: mountain and then we came to a valley. Directly below

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Speaker 1: us was a gigantic white pyramid. It looked as if

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Speaker 1: it were from a fairy tale. The pyramid was draped

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Speaker 1: and shimmering white. It could have been metal or some

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Speaker 1: other form of stone. It was white on all sides.

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Speaker 1: What was most curious about it was its capstone, a

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Speaker 1: large piece of precious gem like material. I was deeply

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Speaker 1: moved by the colossal size of the thing. And a

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Speaker 1: few days after this, there's a photo that emerges. It's

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Speaker 1: printed in the New York Sunday News. This photo is

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Speaker 1: allegedly of the pyramid that they are describing, and Matt

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Speaker 1: we you pulled up the original photograph there it does

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Speaker 1: it looks like a man made mound. It does. Certainly

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Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily match the description that Sheehan and Gosman

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Speaker 1: are putting on it, probably due to the quality of

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Speaker 1: the photograph and the fact that it's in black and white,

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Speaker 1: so you don't see the same color values. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: high contrast black and white. The angle that it's at

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Speaker 1: you can see the shadow from the sun casting the

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Speaker 1: pyramid shape, so you can tell that it is actually

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Speaker 1: pyramid shaped. Um, there's not much around it there. It

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Speaker 1: looks like there may be some structures of some sort

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Speaker 1: on one of the sides. Yeah, but yeah, it's I mean,

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Speaker 1: it definitely is pyramid shaped. So this and similar stories

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Speaker 1: they draw a great public interest and the game of

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Speaker 1: telephone begins. So now when you read about these encounters

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Speaker 1: on many sites, what you'll see is that the quote

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Speaker 1: from Sheehn is attributed to Gosman as well as the photo.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't discredit what they're saying, but it is important

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Speaker 1: for us to note that people started muddying things up

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Speaker 1: pretty early on in this story. So for many people,

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Speaker 1: even in two thousand eighteen, that was the first time

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Speaker 1: the West was aware of these structures. That's that's what

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Speaker 1: most people believe. That's what many of us believe. It

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Speaker 1: started in the nineteen forties. What's happening now, we'll shed

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Speaker 1: some light on this. After a word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: We're back and we're going back in time. We're going

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Speaker 1: to the first Western mention of Chinese pyramids, which is

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Speaker 1: not no it goes back to sixteen sixties seven when

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Speaker 1: Jesuit Athanasius Kersher writes about them in his book China

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Speaker 1: Monumentous Illustrata. And you can actually find this on archive

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Speaker 1: dot org if you choose to go down that rabbit hole. Um,

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Speaker 1: it is really interesting looking. You can flip through some

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Speaker 1: of the pages and look and look at it. It's

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Speaker 1: got some great maps in there of China. It's got

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Speaker 1: lots of writing that I cannot read. Um, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a cool manuscripture book. It's very very cool. Oh wow,

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Speaker 1: really great illustrations in here. And in this book he

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Speaker 1: conducts more of a survey of these various structures. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and as you said, doesn't and an inordinate amount of

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Speaker 1: time on any particular one, but he does mention them

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Speaker 1: again sixteen sixty seven. And if we jump back to

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Speaker 1: the days of Gosman and Sheehan and the various things

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Speaker 1: being published in newspapers about these pyramids, we find that

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Speaker 1: uh bless their hearts, as they say in the South

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Speaker 1: and outfit name the Science newsletter tried to dispel some

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Speaker 1: of what they saw as exaggeration. This publication exists today,

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Speaker 1: by the way, they are known as Science News. On

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Speaker 1: April twelfth of nine, they said, quote the Chinese pyramids

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Speaker 1: of that region are built of mud and dirt and

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Speaker 1: are more like mounds than the pyramids of Egypt, and

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Speaker 1: the region is little traveled. American scientists who have been

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Speaker 1: in the area suggests that the height of one thousand

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Speaker 1: feet or three more than twice as high as any

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Speaker 1: of the Egyptian pyramids may have been exaggerated because most

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Speaker 1: of the Chinese mounds of that area are built relatively low.

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Speaker 1: But the most important part to this story, and this

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Speaker 1: quotation comes at the end. The location reported forty miles

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Speaker 1: sixty kilometers southwest of Sean, is in an area of

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Speaker 1: great archaeological importance, but few of the pyramids have ever

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Speaker 1: been explored. All right, so let's let's think about this,

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Speaker 1: as so many academics want to say, let's unpack this.

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Speaker 1: So the argument here is that experts are aware something

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Speaker 1: exists out there, and they believe reports of the structure

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Speaker 1: have either been purposefully or accidentally exaggerated. And although they

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Speaker 1: gently point out that a pyramid is not automatically the

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Speaker 1: Egyptian structure most people think of, they do admit that

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Speaker 1: most scholars don't know what's inside these structures or how

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Speaker 1: they were built. And so on. So many questions still

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Speaker 1: remain right, and researchers like Chris Meyer are certain that

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Speaker 1: the pyramid depicted in the photo that we just described

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Speaker 1: is actually the Mao Ling mausolem of the Emperor. And

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Speaker 1: while it is the largest tomb built during the Han dynasty,

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Speaker 1: it's still only about a hundred and fifty four ft

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Speaker 1: or forty seven meters high. So if you look at

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Speaker 1: modern photos of the mound at this mausolem, it does

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Speaker 1: it does bear a striking resemblance. Oh yeah, for sure,

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at one right now. There's a little more

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Speaker 1: tree cover right as the trees have grown there, but

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Speaker 1: it's still it still looks close enough for government work. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is where the mystery has remained for several decades.

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Speaker 1: We knew there was something there, and the witnesses all

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Speaker 1: proved to be real people rather than inventions of journalists,

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Speaker 1: but we had no clue how old these structures might be,

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Speaker 1: and we didn't know what might be inside, at least

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Speaker 1: that is until now Here's where it gets crazy. So

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Speaker 1: we may have solved that mystery of the legendary white

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Speaker 1: sparkly pyramid. Uh. These recent investigations have revealed a lot

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Speaker 1: more about ancient China than than we thought they might uh.

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Speaker 1: In in August ofen there's an issue of Antiquity, a

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Speaker 1: journal published by the Cambridge University Press archaeologists, they revealed

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Speaker 1: that while excavating a ruin that historically people had thought,

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Speaker 1: or just scientists and archaeologists had thought it was part

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Speaker 1: of the Great Wall, they actually stumbled across something completely different,

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Speaker 1: insanely different. I would say, you know how often in

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Speaker 1: popular reporting, a small thing that could be maybe a

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Speaker 1: possibility is turned into a height buzzfeedyesque headline by different

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Speaker 1: authors and stuff. This happens all the time in the

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Speaker 1: world of experimental physics, right pretty much any science, pretty

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Speaker 1: much any science. This is unusual because this is the

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Speaker 1: real deal. Everything we're about to tell you is absolutely true.

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Speaker 1: In China. What they found when they thought they were

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Speaker 1: looking at this other part of the Great Wall was

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Speaker 1: a four thousand, three hundred year old metropolis, at least

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Speaker 1: that old, a city that was lost completely to history,

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Speaker 1: with a massive pyramid at its heart. This pyramid is

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Speaker 1: at least two hundred and thirty ft tall or seventy

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Speaker 1: meters tall, and it spans fifty nine acres or twenty

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Speaker 1: three point eight hectares at its base. Now that is massive,

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Speaker 1: the essentially the the area that it covers. So just

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Speaker 1: for a little perspective here the Great Pyramid of Pyramid

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Speaker 1: of Giza, it has a height of about a hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty nine meters, so we're looking at seventy versus

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Speaker 1: a hundred nine um. So this new this new pyramid

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Speaker 1: is significantly shorter. But the Great Pyramid of Giza, this

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Speaker 1: massive thing that we all imagine when we see a pyramid,

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Speaker 1: it only takes up about five and a half hectares

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Speaker 1: at its base, Yeah, compared to twenty three point eight

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Speaker 1: for this new pyramid. And this makes this new pyramid

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Speaker 1: a much larger structure by some measures. Right. But also

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Speaker 1: you know, we know this goes down to the construction

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Speaker 1: methods because one pyramid to stone, the other one we

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Speaker 1: think is rammed compacted earth, we think, we think, but

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Speaker 1: it makes sense because of its location that we'll get

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Speaker 1: into here in a second. And it gets weirder. So

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Speaker 1: this pyramid, which again was entirely lost to history along

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Speaker 1: with the city which we're just spoiler alert. The city

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Speaker 1: was huge. The pyramid was decorated with eye symbols and

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Speaker 1: anthropomorphic or part human part animal faces. The ye eyes

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Speaker 1: it had, it had eyes. It's decorative with pyramid eyes

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Speaker 1: and animal human hybrids. It's very similar to Egyptian things

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Speaker 1: that you will see in hieroglyphics. Just putting that out there,

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Speaker 1: and now I'm thinking of the eye of the pyramid

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Speaker 1: on the dollars and our wallets. Oh boy, that's true.

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Speaker 1: So according to the scientists who conducted the dig or

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Speaker 1: are conducting it, these figures may have endowed the stepped

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Speaker 1: pyramid with special religious power and further strengthened the general

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Speaker 1: visual impression on its large audience. It's stepped right, so

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Speaker 1: it contains eleven steps. They're not the kind of steps

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Speaker 1: you can easily walk up. These are These are the

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Speaker 1: right angle kind of things like a zigger at almost Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's almost like floors in a way. It's the same,

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Speaker 1: but it's it feels similar to them. Each of these

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Speaker 1: steps is lined with stone on the topmost steps. There

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Speaker 1: were extensive palaces with wooden pillars, roofing tiles, the gigantic

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Speaker 1: water reservoir, and domestic remains related to daily life. The

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Speaker 1: rulers of the city lived on top of this pyramid

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Speaker 1: on the eleventh step, of course they did on this

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Speaker 1: pyramid card with eyes. And also it looks like they

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Speaker 1: had the artisans and the skilled crafts people living or

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Speaker 1: at least working there. And they were a set of

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Speaker 1: walls surrounded this enclosure. And then there was another set

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Speaker 1: of walls surrounding the pyramid to restrict access by the

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Speaker 1: common folk. And then there was another set of These

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Speaker 1: are all stone walls, by the way, except no substitutions

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Speaker 1: religious despots. There was another set of stone walls surrounding

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Speaker 1: the city, so they're at least three to four degrees

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Speaker 1: of protection. These there are ramparts as well. It was

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Speaker 1: it was a big deal. It was an entire city

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Speaker 1: and was on lockdown. It also maybe home to the

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Speaker 1: oldest mural yet discovered in China. That's really cool. But

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Speaker 1: it gets stranger still, right when should we tell them

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsored so has been was

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Speaker 1: saying before. The walls of this area. The two separate

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Speaker 1: walls make this a gigantic space. And and for some reason, somehow,

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Speaker 1: even though it's such a large area, this place was

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Speaker 1: completely lost to time. Right now today, what is modernly

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Speaker 1: called is Simao We don't know what it was called.

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Speaker 1: You know, when it was flourishing, We don't have any

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Speaker 1: idea what what the civilization was or the people were um.

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Speaker 1: But for over five hundred years it flourished and grew

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Speaker 1: and eventually it reached an area of nine hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighty eight acres that's the city itself, or four hundred hectares,

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Speaker 1: and it made it one of the largest cities in

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Speaker 1: the world at its time. Yeah, one of the largest

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Speaker 1: at ease. We had no idea existed. We knew these

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Speaker 1: ruins were there as part of the Great Wall, but

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Speaker 1: no idea what was going on, much less it was

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Speaker 1: home to a pyramid. But what we do know now

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Speaker 1: is that it was very strange place where at least

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Speaker 1: it would seem alien to most modern observers today, is

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Speaker 1: a very very religious area sort of, and you know,

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Speaker 1: religion was a dominant political structure at the time, right

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Speaker 1: as as was in most pyramidal structures found throughout the world.

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Speaker 1: There are spaces of religious importance, right absolutely. So we

396
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Speaker 1: have made or these teams have made some discoveries that

397
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Speaker 1: are still baffling to some degree. So as the excavations continue,

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Speaker 1: archaeologists have already noted numerous aspects of the site, but

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Speaker 1: one thing that particularly interested them is the wealth of

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Speaker 1: jade artifacts that are crammed into spaces between the blocks

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00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: and every structure in Shamao found so far. The archaeologist

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00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: imagined this was meant to imbue the site with more

403
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: religious power potency. Yeah, or the perception thereof. I'd love

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00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: to know more about that. Just get like as they're

405
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: finding more, As you know, a couple of years from now,

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00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: maybe even a decade from now, we learn more about

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00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: the significance of the jade in these structures and why

408
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: weren't they stolen? Yeah, it's just been sitting there. And

409
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Speaker 1: the most grizzly part that we saved for last. There

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00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: are also remains of numerous human sacrifices. How many we

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00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: don't know yet, because these excavations continue in the outer

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Speaker 1: gateway of the Eastern Gate. On the outer rampart alone,

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Speaker 1: so towards the very outside, the research team already found

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Speaker 1: six pits full of human heads to capital aided human skulls. Yeah,

415
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: and these are just pits where bodies were dumped. But

416
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,479
Speaker 1: in this case, it's not whole bodies, it's just the heads.

417
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: And some of the victims maybe from another nearby archaeological

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Speaker 1: site to the south of Shimao, and the people of

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00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: this city may have conquered that neighboring site, and these

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Speaker 1: victims are believed to have been taken to the pyramid

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Speaker 1: as captives during the expansion of the city and then

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00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: ritualistically killed for some religious give or take. We don't

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Speaker 1: know the religious practices of the people who populated this city,

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00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: yet we don't know how they influence creator China. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the paper that we mentioned that was published in Antiquity

426
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: is almost I mean, it's it's about how what is

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00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: seen as the periphery of modern Chinese civilization today was

428
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: once a cent sure of a civilization. Now those things

429
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: can shift. So it's a fairly dry paper. It's it is.

430
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: It's not full of buzzfeedy headlines, which I respect, but

431
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: be aware if you find a copy. It is an

432
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: academically centered work of thought. Well it's a it's a

433
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: it's a really I love thinking about it because it

434
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: makes you change and question your thoughts about where civilization

435
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: was developing in China at the time. Where were the

436
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: and it's what what you exactly what you're seeing the

437
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: papers about where were the centers of power, because it

438
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: feels like this place just with its size and the

439
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: way it was militarily built, you know, to withstand all

440
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: kinds of attack, and it was also a religious center.

441
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: It makes it feel as though this perhaps played a

442
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: large role in the large in the bigger area where

443
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: it's located. And here's another part of it that's strange.

444
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you're absolutely right. We don't know why they

445
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: disappeared or how they disappeared. We don't know what brought

446
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: about the downfall of this five plus year old city.

447
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: Could it have been drought or famine? Those are two

448
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: Those are two big factors and a lot of disappearances

449
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: of ancient civilizations. Could it have been warring tribes or

450
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: neighboring communities. Could it have been a disease? Could there

451
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: violent religious practices have caught up with them? Is it

452
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: dismissive for us to say violent religious practices? Maybe that's

453
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: a good point, But here we have it off. If

454
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: a few years ago someone had told you or Matt

455
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: or me that a secret empire flourished in China, powered

456
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: by religious belief in human sacrifice, you probably have thought

457
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: that were bonkers, right, or you you would have maybe

458
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: put it in the same cognitive bucket that we reserve

459
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: for allegations of ancient aliens stuff like that. Or you

460
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: would have just said, I think you get the wrong area, right,

461
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: you would have said, maybe you're thinking of Mesoamerica. Right. Well,

462
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: it just goes to show how many more discoveries await us.

463
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: Our species is going to find things in the stars,

464
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: in the ground, most particularly in the oceans beneath us.

465
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: I'm pretty certain we're going to see more and more

466
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:31,239
Speaker 1: of this stuff as the technology to build reconstructions of

467
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: things swallowed by the waves, As that technology increases in

468
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: sophistication decreases in price, we're going to see some startling things.

469
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: I just want to say how much I love the

470
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: phrase things swallowed by the waves. It's true, that's what happens.

471
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: I know. I just enjoy that phrase. Everything is terrible

472
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: and we're all gonna die. Well, that's true, I mean,

473
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: that's definitely true. No, no, Ben, Ben, you're right, because

474
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: I agree and I'm right there with you, buddy. Well,

475
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: thank you, Matt, thank you, very thank you, very much.

476
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure it is an ancient phrase that exists across

477
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: many languages. I do have to crack myself. It's pith helmet,

478
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: not plinth. Oh, pith helmet. Pith helmet, that's the that's

479
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: the Safari helmet. Yeah, yeah, the old doctor living instant,

480
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: I presumed. So what do you think was the significance

481
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: of Shumao and this new this new pyramid and this

482
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: new city that's been found out near the Great Wall?

483
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: Have you ever been to the Great Wall and maybe

484
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: seen something near there that perhaps was this? Do you

485
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: have any stories just in general from China and your travels,

486
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: or do you live in China and you can tell

487
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: us something about any of this? Is there more? Because

488
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: everything we've read so far as academic papers and just

489
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: some you know, some online journalism about what's been going

490
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: on there, we'd love to hear a source from a price,

491
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: like a primary source from the area and tell us

492
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: about it. Um If you want to do that, you

493
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter where we're conspirat see stuff

494
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. Facebook is conspiracy stuff and

495
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: you should definitely join up with our Facebook group. Here's

496
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. All you have to do is

497
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: answer a question about who hosts the show. Uh. And

498
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: if you're listening to this one as your first episode, Uh,

499
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: you need to put Matt, Ben and Noel because that

500
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: is the correct answer. Although we will we will take

501
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: bag of badgers. Sure, and if I'm if I'm there,

502
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: I'm I'm notoriously happy to let somebody in. If there's

503
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: something that makes me laugh, don't don't tell Cat. Sure,

504
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: and uh, that's that's Cat Riley, one of our moderators.

505
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: Shout out to you. Cat, shout out to Zach and

506
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: the rest of the team. Additionally, we are going on

507
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: tour to a city near you. You can find details

508
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: about that on our website. There's probably depend on where

509
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: you live. There's probably an ad plane about it too.

510
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: So uh, forgive our accident. We're done to see if

511
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: if there is redundancy that exists. We don't need your forgiveness.

512
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: And this isn't what This isn't redundant. This is important. Ben,

513
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: there we go. Well, you know what, Matt, You're right,

514
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: because I was all a segue for me to say.

515
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: If you are a Mandarin speaking or Cantonese speaking listener,

516
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: please forgive us our mispronunciations. That one I am going

517
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: to stick with the tour thing. Was just trying to

518
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: get to a get a segue there, but speaking so, Yeah,

519
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: I go to stuff they don't want you to know

520
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: dot com and click on the live shows a little

521
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: link there, and you will get tickets if you wish, yes, yes,

522
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 1: please buy them for your friends, by for your buy

523
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: for your relatives. You know, if you have relatives that

524
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: you think would find this particularly interesting, then then let

525
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: us know. Let us know who's going, and maybe we

526
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: can give them a shout out on air. There you go,

527
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: it'll be a great date and actually will be. I

528
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: was being to talk to you about this off air, Matt,

529
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: but I think we have a couple of Yeah, I

530
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: think it will actually be a good date show. But

531
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: the best way to find out is to join us

532
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: on tour, or you know, you could try to ask

533
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: us for spoilers. I don't know if you'll get any.

534
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: As Matt said, we're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all the

535
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: good ones, all this stuff. But if none of that

536
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: is your particular bag of badgers and the social media thing,

537
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: it just creeps you out. We of all people get it,

538
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: and we have good news. You can write to us directly.

539
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com,