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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Brian Coburger to get away with murder this after two

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Speaker 2: mystery men's blood DNA found at the murder scene. I mean'sye, Greece,

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Speaker 2: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 2: at this hour. The defense attorney a fleet of lawyers

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Speaker 2: as a matter of fact, representing Brian Coberger, charged in

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Speaker 2: the quadruple slave of four Beautiful University Idaho students. The

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Speaker 2: defense team arguing two mystery men's DNA found at the scene,

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Speaker 2: and therefore they argue nothing at the scene incriminates their client,

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Speaker 2: Brian Coburger.

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Speaker 1: Whoa wait a minute, what about.

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Speaker 2: Coburger's DNA on the knife sheath the murder weapon, the

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Speaker 2: sheath of the murder weapon under one of the victim's

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Speaker 2: dead bodies.

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Speaker 1: Rut Row that said, listen to this.

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Speaker 3: Bryan Coberger's attorney say, blood from an unknown man was

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Speaker 3: found on a handrail in the victim's home and another's

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Speaker 3: DNA was found on a glove outside, and Taylor says

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Speaker 3: this can mean Coburger is not related to the crime

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Speaker 3: at all. In Coburger's last hearing, Taylor criticized authorities, saying

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Speaker 3: police did not disclose the unidentified blood when obtaining a

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Speaker 3: search warrant for Coburger's arrest. Taylor argues, this should disqualify

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Speaker 3: some evidence collected in that search, as it was not

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Speaker 3: properly authorized.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's just kick it off. That's a lie number one.

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Speaker 2: That DNA was disclosed over a year ago and the

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Speaker 2: state's filings, and Taylor, all you have to do is

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Speaker 2: read the filings like we did. That's right, over a

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Speaker 2: year ago. The unknown DNA samples were disclosed. But still

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Speaker 2: Coburger's DNA is on the murder weapon sheath under a

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Speaker 2: dead body.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how they're going to get away with that.

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Speaker 2: You know what, maybe Ann Taylor got a minor degree

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Speaker 2: in magic so she can make the jury do this.

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Speaker 2: Look here not there? Isn't that right, Philip Dubay. Isn't

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Speaker 2: that what you do in court? You try to get

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Speaker 2: the jury to look somewhere else other than at the

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Speaker 2: damning DNA evidence on the sheath of the murder weapon

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Speaker 2: under the victim's dead body.

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Speaker 4: False.

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Speaker 5: I try to get the jury to look at evidence

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Speaker 5: of real guilt and not some spitball. If you will,

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Speaker 5: of guilt, you have proved that two other people's blood

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Speaker 5: was at the scene. Is a stark difference between blood

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Speaker 5: being present and mere presence, And all that sheath might

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Speaker 5: prove at most is that key or somebody in possession

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Speaker 5: of that sheath was there. It does not prove the

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Speaker 5: commission of a quadruple homicide.

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Speaker 2: Joining me right now to help me come back, Philip

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Speaker 2: Dubay with The Truth investigative reporter Sydney Summer, Sidney explained

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Speaker 2: to me this one question. There's a lot of explaining

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Speaker 2: to do, but let's start with a very narrow question.

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Speaker 2: Where is the mystery DNA located at the crime saying,

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Speaker 2: for instance, was it under one of the victim's dead bodies?

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Speaker 1: Sidney lutely not, Nancy.

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Speaker 6: One DNA sample was taken from a handrail on the

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Speaker 6: stairs in the home, and another was found on a

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Speaker 6: random glove outside. Investigators already been sure the glove was

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Speaker 6: ever in the house, so or worn by someone who

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Speaker 6: was ever in the house.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a moment.

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Speaker 2: We've seen the interiors of the home through windows. All

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Speaker 2: the crime scene photos have not been disseminated yet, but

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Speaker 2: we know the victims, the ones that were murdered. There

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Speaker 2: were two girls living downstairs that were untouched were up

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Speaker 2: the stairs.

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Speaker 1: Let's see a shot of the home. Please.

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Speaker 2: There are multiple stories to the home, and when you

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Speaker 2: look at it from the backside you can see it

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Speaker 2: even better. There was a handrail going up the stairs.

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Speaker 2: There you go going up the stairs.

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Speaker 1: Those are the top two floors.

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Speaker 2: Is another floor going up the stairs from the basement

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Speaker 2: or ground floor to the second story where you see

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Speaker 2: those sliding glass doors, to the third story where you

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Speaker 2: see the sliding glass doors with the balcony. The mystery

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Speaker 2: blood DNA on the handrail could, as far as I know,

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Speaker 2: been all the way down in the basement, nowhere near

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Speaker 2: the dead bodies of these four students murdered in their

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Speaker 2: beds now.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true?

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Speaker 2: To Chris mcdonnet joining me, Founder director of the Cold

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Speaker 2: Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over three hundred homicide

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Speaker 2: investigations under his belt, star of the Interview Room on YouTube,

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Speaker 2: Chris mcdonnet, isn't it true that when we were out

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Speaker 2: at the scene, when you were there on your own,

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Speaker 2: you observed a glove lying out in the parking lot.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that true?

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Speaker 4: It absolutely is.

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Speaker 7: Nancy and I was standing on the street near the

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Speaker 7: trash cans out front, and I looked behind that trash can,

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Speaker 7: just behind the yellow barrier tape, and there it was

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Speaker 7: sitting right there in the know. And I talked to

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Speaker 7: my shelf, Wow, that's out of place. So I called

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Speaker 7: one of the officers over, and you know, I pointed

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Speaker 7: it out to them and they collected it.

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Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, we're showing a photo of

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Speaker 2: that glove right now.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: This was after the scene had been processed to some degree.

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Speaker 2: This is after a law enforcement had already come there,

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Speaker 2: and there was a glove out in the parking lot. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's one glove. And when I went to the scene

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Speaker 2: as well, Guess what I was wearing. I believe we

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Speaker 2: have a photo h that. Guess what I dropped in

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Speaker 2: the parking lot that day? This I still have it.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about DNA inside a completely unrelated glove

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Speaker 2: found out in the parking lot Sidney summer. Yes, No,

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Speaker 2: wasn't the glove found in the parking lot of the home.

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Speaker 6: That's correct, Nancy, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's go straight back to Chris McDonough. Chris McDonough,

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Speaker 2: could you explain to me any if any significance of

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Speaker 2: a random glove in the parking lot, What, if anything,

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Speaker 2: could that mean. I'm sure the defense is having a

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Speaker 2: field day with it, but realistically speaking, it wasn't on

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Speaker 2: the sheath of the murder weapon under the victim's body.

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Speaker 2: It's out in the parking lot. It could have been

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Speaker 2: yours or mind for Pete's sake.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely.

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Speaker 7: In fact, Nancy could have also belonged to one of

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Speaker 7: the investigators processing the scene. You know, they could have

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Speaker 7: accidentally dropped it and nobody saw it. Although you know,

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Speaker 7: the defense would probably argue, hey, it's in the direction

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Speaker 7: of where the car allegedly would have been parked according

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Speaker 7: to the police, that you know, or excuse me, the

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Speaker 7: prosecution is going to say, you know, this came from

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Speaker 7: the suspect. My question is is the blood on the

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Speaker 7: inside or the outside of the glove, because that could

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Speaker 7: be significant.

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Speaker 2: Really good point, guys. Another theory has emerged, now wait

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Speaker 2: for it.

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Speaker 1: Listen to this.

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Speaker 3: When Ryan Coberger was arrested, his response to police, who

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Speaker 3: else did you arrest? There is much speculation over the comment,

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Speaker 3: especially now that his defense claims unidentified male blood was

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Speaker 3: found on a handrail at the King Road crime scene

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Speaker 3: and on a glove outside. They say this points to

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Speaker 3: potential other suspects or could be part of an elaborate

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Speaker 3: plant to stage the crime scene that.

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Speaker 1: Are in criminal profilo.

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Speaker 3: John Kelly tells news agencies that the remark could have

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Speaker 3: come from Coburger's expectation that other leads had been followed

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Speaker 3: by police.

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Speaker 2: Straight out to special guests joining us. And you know

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Speaker 2: him well. Howard Bloom is with us who has conducted extensive.

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Speaker 1: Research and investigation over.

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Speaker 2: Months, culminating in his new book, When the Night Comes Falling,

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Speaker 2: a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. And you can

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Speaker 2: find him at his website Howard Bloom spelled b l

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Speaker 2: um dot com. Howard, you have recently written an article

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Speaker 2: in which you stay there are stunning courtroom revelations, and

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Speaker 2: you know I can't deny this, even though I don't

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Speaker 2: think the state has arrested the wrong person. Mystery DNA

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Speaker 2: from two other males at the same blood.

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Speaker 1: DNA is going to be a hurdle for the state.

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Speaker 2: Now when it's explained slowly and carefully and calmly, I

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Speaker 2: think the jury will see through it.

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Speaker 1: But it's a bobshell.

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Speaker 2: What do you think about another other experts theory that

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Speaker 2: Coburger may have even staged it.

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Speaker 8: Trials tell stories. I think that's what we have to remember.

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Speaker 8: The facts really don't matter that much. Here you have

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Speaker 8: the defense being able to ask the question, how did

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Speaker 8: that knife sheath get in that bedroom? Could someone have

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Speaker 8: planted it there other than Coburger? Because remember it's not

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Speaker 8: blood DNA from Coburger on the knife sheet, it's touched DNA.

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Speaker 8: They are going to argue that perhaps he touched the

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Speaker 8: knife sheath at some point and these other two unknown

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Speaker 8: males planted it there. They're going to try to convince

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Speaker 8: a jury of this.

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Speaker 1: Put him up.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm sorry, maybe my ife base not working

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Speaker 2: because I think what I just heard you say is

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Speaker 2: that someone got the knife sheath from Coburger after he

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Speaker 2: had touched it in the snap where you app to

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Speaker 2: take the knife out, got it from Coburger and planted

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Speaker 2: it under a dead body, and then conveniently left behind

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Speaker 2: their own blood DNA on the handrail and in a

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Speaker 2: random glove out in the parking lot.

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Speaker 1: Query were little green men from Mars?

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Speaker 8: Part of this, you can you can say it's facetiously

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Speaker 8: like that, but the evidence against Coburger. Besides, the DNA

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Speaker 8: really doesn't stand up. Everything is very weak. We can

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Speaker 8: go through it again. You know, there's no motive, there's

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Speaker 8: no picture of them in the life car.

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Speaker 1: Actually do let's go through it.

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Speaker 4: Hold on.

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Speaker 2: His phone pings at his apartment at two forty two

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Speaker 2: a m.

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Speaker 1: The night of the murders. Five minutes later, his phone

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Speaker 1: is turned off.

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Speaker 2: Three twenty nine, a m of wh Alantra mass matching

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Speaker 2: his sedan, passes the murder scene three times, at three

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Speaker 2: point thirty in the morning. Four it comes back and

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Speaker 2: stops in front of the house for twenty It leaves,

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Speaker 2: flying down that crookedly little road leading up to the

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Speaker 2: murder scene. Then four forty eight it pings south of Moscow,

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Speaker 2: plowing down State Highway ninety five in the dark. Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's see to Sydney Sumner joining me Crime online dot

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Speaker 2: Com investigative reporter Sydney His cell phone pings alone are damning.

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Speaker 2: His Elantra is spotted there at the scene. We see

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Speaker 2: him destroying evidence, cleaning out his car meticulously.

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Speaker 1: Blood places him at the scene.

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Speaker 2: Excuse me, DNA places him at the scene, and so

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Speaker 2: much more. Sidney Sumner what evidence is the state using

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Speaker 2: against Brian Toberger.

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Speaker 6: There is so much evidence that the state has to

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Speaker 6: use against Brian Coberger. A lot of this is circumstantial

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Speaker 6: at best, but that DNA evidence is absolutely damning. There's

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Speaker 6: just no explanation for why that knife sheep is in

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Speaker 6: that house if it isn't the murder weapon, and no

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Speaker 6: explanation for why coburger DNA would be on that knife

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Speaker 6: sheep if he was not the murderer.

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace straight out to special guests,

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Speaker 2: joining US doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologists specializing in capital mitigation.

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Speaker 2: The idea that Bloom is advancing that somehow two other

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Speaker 2: males were part of a big murder scheme where not

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Speaker 2: only did they murder for innocent University Idaho students, but

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Speaker 2: it was all part of a plan to incriminate Brian

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Speaker 2: Coburger by somehow getting his DNA on the knife sheath

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Speaker 2: and planting it. I didn't even mention the searches, the

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Speaker 2: Amazon searches, which the defense is trying desperately to suppress

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Speaker 2: so the jury never hears about it. The Amazon searches

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Speaker 2: many many searches for the weapon, and he finally buys

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Speaker 2: the weapon with a sheath that exactly matches the one

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Speaker 2: found at the murder scene under a victim, but the

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Speaker 2: knife has gone missing, so he bought the knife on

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Speaker 2: Amazon like a big idiot. Now they're climbing Your Amazon

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Speaker 2: records are sacred and private and the state shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: able to access them. Really, But that said, what jury

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Speaker 2: would buy the argument that too unknown mystery man plan

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Speaker 2: this whole thing to frame Coburger.

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Speaker 9: I think that's a tough sell because the reality is

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Speaker 9: the simplest explanation is usually the one that's most correct.

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Speaker 9: This was a college house where the kids had parties.

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Speaker 9: When I was in college, cleaning up after.

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Speaker 10: A party wasn't one of my priorities, And so that blood.

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Speaker 11: Could have come from two different meal people who were

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Speaker 11: in the house. Maybe they were at a party and

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Speaker 11: cut themselves. You know, who knows how long that it

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Speaker 11: was there. I think there's a number of explanations, but

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Speaker 11: that's a really complicated.

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Speaker 10: Explanation to say that he was framed and that all

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Speaker 10: of these steps had to happen to do that.

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Speaker 12: I don't like you he did a white collar crime.

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Speaker 13: This isn't a white color crime.

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Speaker 12: This is This is people you work your whole life

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Speaker 12: to get them to go to college and then they

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Speaker 12: get killed while they're sleep that night.

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Speaker 1: When this guy like he just like.

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Speaker 7: Traded insider trading with his own company stocks, it's not

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Speaker 7: white collar.

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Speaker 2: With every twist and turn in this case, the victim's

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Speaker 2: family suffer more at this hour a bombshell the defense

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Speaker 2: claiming two mystery males DNA found at the murder, saying

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Speaker 2: or four Idaho University students slaughtered in their own beds.

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Speaker 1: You were just saying. The parents of Kelly GUNSLV is

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Speaker 1: speaking out.

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Speaker 2: Take a listen to what we are learning about the

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Speaker 2: defense argument.

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Speaker 3: Coburger's attorneys claimed d FBI illegally obtained Ryan Coberger's DNA,

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Speaker 3: breaking the Fourth Amendment on illegal search and seizure. They

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Speaker 3: say submitting Coburger's DNA to a public ancestry database was

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Speaker 3: out of bounds when law enforcement is not legally permitted

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Speaker 3: to use the site. The attorneys are also saying the

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Speaker 3: fact that police did not only not submit to other

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Speaker 3: blood samples from the scene to the FBI DNA database

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Speaker 3: due to not fitting eligibility requirements, agents did not tell

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Speaker 3: the magistrate judge about them. Taylor claims the omission should

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Speaker 3: disqualify some evidence obtained joining us.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Thomas Coyne, Chief Medical Examiner, District Tie Medical Examiner's

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Speaker 2: Office in Florida, pathologist, neuropathologist, toxicologist.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Coin, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Much is being made about the mystery men's to DNA,

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Speaker 2: two of them unidentified males.

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Speaker 1: We understand they're.

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Speaker 2: Not the same two, they're not the same person. Donor

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Speaker 2: not just one mystery man, but two mystery men's blood

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Speaker 2: DNA found at the murder scene. One blood on a handrail.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious was it dried? Where in the home was it?

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Speaker 2: There are three stories. The other on a glove discarded

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Speaker 2: in the parking lot, Doctor Coin. There are many ways

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Speaker 2: to transfer blood, such as what well.

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Speaker 14: I mean, first of all, we're making the assumption of

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Speaker 14: this is blood, and I don't think that it may

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Speaker 14: very well not be blood. And the reason being is

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Speaker 14: that DNA obtained from a nucleated blood cell or a

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Speaker 14: nucleated cell from your mouth or from anywhere in your

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Speaker 14: body is going to be the same. So the only

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Speaker 14: way that you're able to identify that this is blood

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Speaker 14: is either doing an mRNA profile, which they didn't do here,

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Speaker 14: or to apply another chemical reagent that will try to

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Speaker 14: identify this substance that's blood and that generally occurs by

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Speaker 14: reacting with iron that's president in the humid a little

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Speaker 14: bit of blood, and you make the assumption, yes, this

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Speaker 14: is blood, but iron is present in a lot of things. Copper,

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Speaker 14: iron are all transition medicals excuse me, chemicals that or

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Speaker 14: metals excuse me, that can make this reaction look positive.

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Speaker 14: So you're making the assumption that you're applying a reagent

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Speaker 14: to an area in the house, you're getting a positive hit,

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Speaker 14: you're swabbing it, you're getting a positive DNA hit, and

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Speaker 14: now you're saying, yes, this is blood DNA, but there's

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Speaker 14: DNA all over that house. We shed DNA everywhere constantly,

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Speaker 14: especially a home that you have tenants that are all

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Speaker 14: in college. I guarantee you there are multiple male and

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Speaker 14: females coming in and out of that house on a

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Speaker 14: regular basis, shedding their DNA everywhere.

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Speaker 2: To Justine Scott Morgan, joining US Professor Forensics Say Jacksonville

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Speaker 2: State University, author of Blood My Feet on Amazon and

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Speaker 2: star of Body Bags, Joe Scott, you have investigated over

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Speaker 2: one thousand, one thousand death scenes. You have collected blooded scenes,

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Speaker 2: you have the observed transfer spatter, pulling droplets.

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Speaker 1: You name it.

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Speaker 2: You have found the tiniest, tiniest amount of DNA at

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Speaker 2: scenes and collected it.

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Speaker 1: Now the defense is stating.

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Speaker 2: That this is male DNA, at least one of them

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Speaker 2: being blood. I'm curious, Joe Scott Morgan, how is it

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Speaker 2: that they know it's male DNA.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's because of the markers that are contained within

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Speaker 4: our DNA molecule, the differentiate between male and female. So

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Speaker 4: that's relatively easily narrowed down, and they still have it.

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Speaker 4: Is this something they can go back and do for

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Speaker 4: the test now?

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Mactor Howard Bloom joining us, author of When the Night

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Speaker 2: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho student murderers. You

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Speaker 2: stay in your recent article that you fear that Brian

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Speaker 2: Coberger has, let me quote, committed the nearly perfect crime.

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Speaker 1: Why do you say that.

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Speaker 8: Because the evidence against him is largely circumstantial except for

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Speaker 8: the DNA. The only really condemning evidence against him is

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Speaker 8: after he's arrested, they do a cheek swab the DNA

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Speaker 8: from that cheek swap matches, the DNA on the knife sheath,

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Speaker 8: that's it. Everything else the car they never have him

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Speaker 8: behind the wheel, they never get the life of the car.

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Speaker 8: The cell phone triangulation, well that's just ten miles the

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Speaker 8: eyewitness allegedly for Dylan Mortenson. That's been impugned. So on

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Speaker 8: and on and on, And if the defense can create

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Speaker 8: a story now with this new blood evidence in telling

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Speaker 8: another scenario, another possibility to the jury, it could be effective.

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Speaker 8: In fact, in court it was Judge Hippler himself who said,

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Speaker 8: after hearing the defense make the statement about the DNA,

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Speaker 8: are you saying that Coberger had people helping him, that

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Speaker 8: he had accomplices? He raised this issue and if he

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Speaker 8: is able to articulate it, it will I think land

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Speaker 8: very spare in the minds of the jurors.

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Speaker 2: Boom, Wait a minute. He only said that, obviously because

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Speaker 2: and Taylor's argument isn't making any sense. She is saying,

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Speaker 2: I guess jumping on your train, that too unknown mystery

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Speaker 2: men either helped or framed Brian Coburger. He's saying it

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Speaker 2: just like I said. Is that what you're saying? Just

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Speaker 2: like when I said, what's next little green men from

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Speaker 2: Mars beamed down and helped out. He is trying to

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Speaker 2: get his mind around the defense claim. Are you saying

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Speaker 2: that two men helped Coburger, that this is a big

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Speaker 2: murder conspiracy, either helped him commit the murder or tried

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Speaker 2: to frame him. He's saying it just like I'm saying

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Speaker 2: it right now. Is that really what you're saying. I

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Speaker 2: don't read anything into that incredulity.

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Speaker 8: Because he also raised the question of a Frank's hearing.

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Speaker 8: He did not rule it out. He had to give

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Speaker 8: it more thoughts. And I think I'm not saying it's

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Speaker 8: what happened. I'm saying this is an effective story, and

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Speaker 8: Taylor is a story held one story.

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Speaker 1: You know what a Frank's hearing is, right? Do you

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Speaker 1: think Frank's hearing is.

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Speaker 8: Is to impugne the evidence of the police gathered to

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Speaker 8: get a search warrant for a probable cause?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 2: And he responded with incredulity at that very claim that

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Speaker 2: the search warrant and the arrest warrant were not supported

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Speaker 2: by constitutional PC probable cause.

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Speaker 3: Listen to what Hipler says. Judge Steve Hippler and a

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Speaker 3: Coborger's league. Defense attorney An Taylor seemed to be at

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Speaker 3: odds over DNA found at the crime scene. The defense

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Speaker 3: wants investigative genetic genealogy evidence used to identify her client suppressed,

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Speaker 3: the question being is there an expectation of privacy for

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Speaker 3: DNA left at a crime scene? Judge Stephen Hipler says

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Speaker 3: he struggles with the idea that there's any expectation of privacy.

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Speaker 3: Hipler added that the DNA found on the knife sheath,

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Speaker 3: there's probable calls every day and twice on Sunday, and

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Speaker 3: Taylor disagreed.

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Speaker 1: There you have it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, bloom, you can sit back and your easy

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Speaker 2: chair and write books and articles as interesting and as

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Speaker 2: informative as they are, and try to interpret what the

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Speaker 2: judge is saying.

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Speaker 1: But his words are, DNA.

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Speaker 2: On that knife sheath is probable cause every day and

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Speaker 2: twice on Sunday, babe.

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Speaker 4: And what did he say after that?

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Speaker 8: He said, hold, your calendar is free because we might

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Speaker 8: want to have a Frank's hearing. So he hadn't resolved

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Speaker 8: it as clearly as he would.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute, hold on, Philip Doby, can you

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Speaker 2: just debate? Can you just take off your defense hat

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Speaker 2: really quickly, okay, and just tell me the truth if this.

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Speaker 1: If the defense wants.

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Speaker 2: A Frank's hearing before the judge, they're gonna get a

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Speaker 2: Frank's hearing. Why this is a death penalty case, and

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Speaker 2: if they want the judge to hear the argument and

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Speaker 2: then rule of course, hipler's going to do it.

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Speaker 1: A judge, especially in a.

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Speaker 2: Death penalty case, is not going to say I don't

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Speaker 2: even want to hear what you've got to say a jailer,

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Speaker 2: Uh huh, that right, there could be reversible error, So

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Speaker 2: of course he's going to have a Frank's hearing. A

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Speaker 2: Frank's hearing is when the judge looks at the probable

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Speaker 2: cause that supported a search or an arrest warrant and

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Speaker 2: determines really was there enough PC. PC can be based

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Speaker 2: on hearsay, it can be based on third party information,

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Speaker 2: but it has to be enough to support.

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Speaker 1: A search or an arrest.

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Speaker 2: Do you really think, in any way in any world debate,

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Speaker 2: that Hippler is not going to allow a Frank's hearing.

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Speaker 2: For him to say, yes, you can have a Frank's hearing,

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Speaker 2: that means nothing.

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Speaker 5: Of course he's going to allow it, and you should,

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Speaker 5: because remember, the test is whether or not the affidem

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Speaker 5: it or probable cause is supported by truthful, accurate facts

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Speaker 5: that were relayed in the affidavit or probable cause under oath.

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Speaker 5: If for whatever reason there were factual omissions, misstatements, and

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Speaker 5: frankly lies, that is grounds to traverse the warrant and

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Speaker 5: suppress everything recovered as a result of it. Or alternatively,

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Speaker 5: the court confined that despite the inaccuracies and the omissions,

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Speaker 5: even if you sever that, there's still ample probable cause

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Speaker 5: to allow warrant to survive.

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Speaker 13: Yeah, I understand your position, which frankly is not well

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Speaker 13: supported in the law.

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Speaker 11: That.

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Speaker 13: If hypothetically, here he went to this crime scene, committed

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Speaker 13: these murders, and left DNA on a piece of evidence

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Speaker 13: that he now has the ability to object to that

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Speaker 13: evidence being searched for identification purposes. There's no case that

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Speaker 13: suggests that that concludes that, and it seems to me

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Speaker 13: to be an extreme position to.

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Speaker 1: Take in light of the case.

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Speaker 13: Lawn, I'm trying to understand how you get.

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Speaker 2: There, Okate, my notes when the judge was saying that,

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Speaker 2: when Hippler was saying that is Hippler knows defendant's attorney

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Speaker 2: is crazy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: The defense in this case is arguing that once the

445
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: DNA was found on the knife sheath, that the state

446
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 2: illegally had.

447
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: It tested at the crime lab.

448
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: Okay, that's like you find a bullet at the scene

449
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: and you send it to the crime lab for ballistics tests.

450
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: That's the equivalent.

451
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: They're actually claiming that that was unconstitutional. And the judge

452
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: is saying, like, let me understand again what you're saying here,

453
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: and he comes out and says, there's no case to

454
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 2: suggest or support what you're saying.

455
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: You understand that right.

456
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: Anyway, There is another issue sell phone data listen.

457
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 15: Gooberg defense team has hired cell phone expert Sire to

458
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 15: testify and support of Coberger's alibi. The former police officer

459
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 15: and founder of z X bases his analysis on the

460
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 15: pings that a cell phone sends to a nearby tower

461
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 15: using the software tracks, but many have questioned the reliability

462
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 15: of raised data. Many other experts say Trax's methodology is

463
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 15: not based in science, and a Colorado judge has even

464
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 15: banned prosecutors from using the software in their cases.

465
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: What cell phone data number one? We know where his

466
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: phone ping. Let's see that graphic one more time, and

467
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: we know that at the time of the murders, he

468
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: conveniently turned his cell phone off and then.

469
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: Turn it on again when he was fleeing the scene.

470
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: According to the State, Scott Eiker is joining a founding

471
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team.

472
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: Let that just sink in.

473
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: Founding member of the FBI sell Analysis Team.

474
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: That says it all.

475
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: You can find him now at PCAs Experts dot com

476
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: Precision Cellular Analysis.

477
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: This is what he does all day, every day.

478
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: And as Hipler said twice on Sundays, Scott Iiker, thank

479
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: you for being with us. What are they talking about?

480
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: They have a cell phone expert that's gonna say.

481
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 4: What I can tell you, Nancy.

482
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 12: I've dealt with this cell phone expert, mister siree, and

483
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 12: we have for years and years dealt with him and

484
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 12: how he brings stuff into court. The best way to

485
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 12: exam explain it is that judge in Colorado who basically

486
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 12: said that his software is based on a sea of unreliability.

487
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 12: He found that mister Ray was not credible, claiming that

488
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 12: he was boasting his credentials. Actor claiming he was an engineer,

489
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 12: and they basically said you can't use his stuff or

490
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 12: use him as an expert in Colorado here because it's

491
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 12: baseless and the reason they're doing that, And you know,

492
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 12: I don't know mister Ray personally, but you know we've

493
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 12: dealt with his estimates and misleading information in what he

494
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 12: says about self on stuff numerous times, and it's very

495
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 12: important to make sure you're accurate because it can be

496
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 12: very problematic and misleading. If you don't just state the facts,

497
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 12: you can't expound on those.

498
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: And Guests, Scott Iiker, I want to tell you a

499
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: very quick story. I had a medical examiner, and no

500
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: offense to you, doctor Coin or to you Joe Scott Morgan,

501
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 2: but this medical examiner I had seen transcripts or he

502
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 2: was totally discredited under oath, and I waited for him

503
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 2: to take the stand for the defense, and then I

504
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: remember the look on his face when I started pulling

505
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: out all those depositions. At least here the defense is

506
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: getting an idea ahead of time that their expert.

507
00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: May have a credibility problem.

508
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: Are you are you telling me he claiming to be

509
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: an engineer and he's not an engineer that is correct.

510
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 12: He is not an engineer. He was actually a police

511
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 12: officer or sheriff in I think it was in Texas

512
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 12: or Arizona, and he started working cases around cell phone stuff.

513
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 12: And he has basic knowledge. He's never had any training

514
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 12: from engineers like I have what we did in the FBI.

515
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 12: So he doesn't have the knowledge or the expertise. And

516
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 12: then he's taking the leaps where there's really no facts

517
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 12: to support what he's saying.

518
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 2: Sometimes, Philip du Bay, that is a major misstep to

519
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: put up an expert that's going to be destroyed on

520
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: cross examination on credibility alone if that happens in this case.

521
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 5: Yes, of course, But remember he's putting on an alibi defense.

522
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 5: He is saying that he was stargazing and chanting at Ashram,

523
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 5: sitting in a lotus position with the phone off, and

524
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 5: if he's at one with.

525
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: The universe, praying and saying Noma.

526
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 5: State, that's defense. Now, will it fly remains to be seen.

527
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 16: Finally, there was a trash pool in Pennsylvania, and there

528
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 16: was no warrant for that trash pool either your honor.

529
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 16: For the purposes of the Fourth Amendment protections and Article

530
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 16: one Section seventeen of the Idaho Constitution. We are looking

531
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 16: to see if somebody has a privacy interest that society

532
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 16: is ready to support. In this case, if society is

533
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 16: not ready to support suppression of every bit of our

534
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 16: DNA when the government does not have a warrant and

535
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 16: searches it, there is no privacy right left.

536
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: Okay, to really focus on what Anne Taylor is saying

537
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: to Defense arning Field de Bay.

538
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: She is arguing that when the.

539
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: Trash was taken from Coburger's parents' home in the Poconos

540
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: and they got the dad's DNA matched it back to

541
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: the knife sheep trash was taken, that was illegal. I

542
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: guess she never heard about the abandonment theory. If I

543
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: throw out the trash or I throw out gum on

544
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: the street, which I would never do, and the cop

545
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: comes along gets my DNA off of it, that's abandonment.

546
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: Anybody can have it because I threw it away, I

547
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: don't need a warrant. She's claiming that the trash pool

548
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 2: was wrong, and she's arguing that Coburger's great great great

549
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: grandma has a privacy interest. When they put Coburger's DNA

550
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: from the knife sheath into the genetic genealogy. Whose rights

551
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 2: are they violating? Great great granny What.

552
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: That's what she's arguing. You know, that's BS disagree.

553
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 5: Come on, listen. They just took the DNA profile his

554
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 5: genetic components, put it into a database where they had

555
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 5: no actual or apparent consent to look at it. And

556
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 5: the real test is does he have a subjective and

557
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 5: objective expectation of privacy in his own genetic material as

558
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 5: a opposed to just taking the genetic material of material

559
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 5: and putting it in a government database where you have

560
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 5: a bunch of arrestees and suspects already on file without

561
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 5: actual or apparent consent. It violates sup Forth Amendment and

562
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 5: the remedies you throw out.

563
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 1: Evidence consent from who.

564
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 2: None of those people have standing to complain to argue

565
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: in court. This is about the defendant's right to privacy

566
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: and taking the DNA off that knife sheath and putting

567
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 2: it into genetic genealogy does not violate his rights.

568
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: And as far as the trash pull, the father Coburger's father.

569
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: Throughout trash, it was abandoned under the law according to

570
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: the US Supreme Court. Unless you're climbing, they're wrong that

571
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 2: property was abandoned and the police have full access to that.

572
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 2: But hold on, I'm just being joined by a very

573
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: special guest joining us regarding the Idaho death penalty and

574
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 2: execution methods, doctor James Williams, leading courtroom expert on firing squads.

575
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: Doctor Williams, thank you for being with us.

576
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 4: The happy to be here.

577
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: Thank you.

578
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: The Idaho Assembly has now determined that the firing squad, again,

579
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: of course this has already occurred in Idaho, will be

580
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 2: allowed as the number one choice for execution. How is

581
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: that affected? Many people wonder is it automated or are

582
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: there actual people firing the gun? How does the firing

583
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: squad work in Idaho.

584
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 4: Well, that's a good question, Nancy. Nobody really knows at

585
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 4: this point. The state has stated that they're still working

586
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 4: on their procedures and protocols, but we do know from

587
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 4: background information that they have drawn heavily on the experience

588
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 4: of the state of Utah, which of course have been

589
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 4: using firing squad as a method of execution since the

590
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 4: middle of the nineteenth century. But there has been speculations

591
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 4: they may use some form of automated system. Automated would

592
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 4: be I think stretching it, but having rifles mounted in

593
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 4: fixtures that would be aimed presumably by human beings prior

594
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 4: to the actual execution, and then they would be fired

595
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 4: by some remote mechanism electronically, well, not really a robot.

596
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 4: It would really it would actually be as I understand, well,

597
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 4: it could be actually just back off on that. Sure,

598
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 4: if they've got a robot that's sophisticated, they may well

599
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 4: use it. But I don't know of anything like that

600
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 4: in existence technologically.

601
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 2: Okay, let me just try to drink and ingest what

602
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: you just said.

603
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: Guys.

604
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 2: Doctor James Williams is a leading expert on the firing squad.

605
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: So you're saying that it's actually being advocated that a

606
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 2: robotic system or digital system be set up to take

607
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: perfect aim at Coburger and shoot him dead, as opposed

608
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: to five people standing there, one of them has a

609
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 2: blank and they all fire and they can all go

610
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 2: home thinking, oh, I was the one with the blank.

611
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: Why.

612
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 4: I'm not sure what the reason behind it is. I

613
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 4: think there's a lot of arguments and at this point

614
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 4: really a false speculation. We know that they have been

615
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 4: discussing this in numbers of jurisdictions and Idaho is one

616
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 4: of them. But the actual motives behind doing it that

617
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 4: way are unclear to me.

618
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 2: Joining me again, Star Body Bags A Joe Scott Morgan,

619
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Have we all lost our minds? An automated

620
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 2: or digital system? So no human actually has to pull

621
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: the trigger, because I've got a pretty good idea of

622
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: somebody would like to pull the trigger, and that would

623
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: be Kelly Gonsolvis, his mom and dad.

624
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: I bet people are lined up to pull Yeah, there

625
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: would be.

626
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 4: There's any number. And how many times have I heard

627
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 4: people say that since since this butchery went down, you know,

628
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 4: just give me an opportunity to do it. But it's

629
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 4: one thing to say that, it's another thing to step

630
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 4: in and facilitate this. But we have to keep in mind,

631
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:30,919
Speaker 4: even with the capital punishment that they decide upon, it's

632
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 4: just like anything else. If you're talking about lethal injection

633
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 4: or as we we've recently used here in Alabama, this

634
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 4: exposure to gas, you know, and we're talking about nitrogen

635
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 4: gas that they're now using, there is a human element.

636
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 4: Somebody has to press something, somebody has to flip something,

637
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 4: somebody has to initiate the sequence, and you know, the

638
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 4: military has had firing systems for years and years where

639
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 4: they can target a weapon at a specific point. Now,

640
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 4: I think the curious question here is are we talking

641
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 4: about multiple multiple weapons that are being used in a

642
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 4: traditional sense, or are we talking about a single weapon

643
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 4: that is targeted, say, for instance, center mass over the

644
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 4: individual to be executed over their hearts. That's quite quite

645
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 4: something when you begin to think about it.

646
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: You know what, Joe Scott, I love it when you

647
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 2: start talking this way.

648
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: But are you just to put it in a shell.

649
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 2: They're considering an automated system where quote nobody has to

650
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: pull the trigger. Okay, can we just see a shot

651
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: of these victims, these four victims with their lives in

652
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 2: front of them, falling to sleep in their own beds.

653
00:40:52,960 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: They were slaughtered like animals getting rendered in at your shop.

654
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: If evidence supports Coburger is guilty of these murders in

655
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 2: some bizarre experiment to see what it felt like to

656
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 2: kill people, he may very well be subjected to the

657
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: Idaho death penalty if convicted. I guarantee you there would

658
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 2: be a line wrapped around the building to pull the

659
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: trigger at this juncture.

660
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: He is innocent until proven guilty. In a court of law.

661
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend,