1
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,920
Speaker 1: A new deadly bug has been found in the state

2
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,520
Speaker 1: for lovers, Should my family and I be quaking under

3
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:15,160
Speaker 1: our covers?

4
00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,200
Speaker 2: If Maxwell was right, then magnetic field lines shouldn't ever snap,

5
00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,120
Speaker 2: but field lines break in the sun. So was Maxwell full.

6
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:29,400
Speaker 1: Of When Daniel's wife comes on the show, she often

7
00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,760
Speaker 1: talks about poop, which got me thinking of microbes in space.

8
00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: So what's the scoop?

9
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,200
Speaker 2: Whatever questions have been keeping you up at night, Daniel

10
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,400
Speaker 2: and Kelly's answers will make it all right.

11
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 1: Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

12
00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,520
Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I wish

13
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 2: I'd heard this episode before I visited Virginia.

14
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,920
Speaker 1: Oh come, I'm going to note that the thing I'm

15
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:07,880
Speaker 1: going to talk about is a problem for California too,

16
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,480
Speaker 1: so watch it.

17
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:10,680
Speaker 3: Hello.

18
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,720
Speaker 1: I'm Kelly Waitersmith. I study parasites and space, and this

19
00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 1: might be the first episode where we talk about parasites

20
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 1: and space for me. So we've got it all for me.

21
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,240
Speaker 2: And reasons to not visit Virginia or California. We'll have

22
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 2: to work in some cannibalism and then it'll be the

23
00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,440
Speaker 2: full suite of dKu checkboxes.

24
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,560
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about poop, so we already know

25
00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:34,760
Speaker 1: we've got that taken care.

26
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 2: Of, all right, So then, Kelly, my question for you is,

27
00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,880
Speaker 2: on average, how much poop does an adult human ingest

28
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,440
Speaker 2: accidentally in their life?

29
00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,800
Speaker 1: You think I've just got that kind of information, like

30
00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 1: ready to share with people. I feel like this is

31
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,880
Speaker 1: less a question and more some insights into what kind

32
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 1: of person you think I am. I have no idea, Daniel,

33
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,600
Speaker 1: it's probably a lot. You're actually your wife seems like

34
00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,680
Speaker 1: she would know. Do you know the answer? Was this

35
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:00,400
Speaker 1: a whiz?

36
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,320
Speaker 2: It's not a quiz. I do not know the answer.

37
00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,440
Speaker 2: But last time you were very happy to talk about

38
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,840
Speaker 2: the butt to mouth pipeline or whatever you called it.

39
00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,079
Speaker 1: Poop to mouth, poop to mouth, pooped mouth.

40
00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:11,480
Speaker 2: There you go.

41
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,040
Speaker 1: I mean, let's just say that a lot of poop

42
00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 1: to mouth transmitted diseases are very common. So the answer

43
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,080
Speaker 1: has to be a lot, yea, you know, it's got

44
00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:21,760
Speaker 1: to be a lot.

45
00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering what are the correct units? Even before

46
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,720
Speaker 2: describing it. We're talking kilograms, metric tons, micrograms, Just like,

47
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,960
Speaker 2: what are we looking at here? If you looked at

48
00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,240
Speaker 2: a pile of all the poop you accidentally ingested in

49
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:36,560
Speaker 2: your life, how big would it be?

50
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,880
Speaker 1: Oh, gosh, gosh, I hope it's grams and not pounds

51
00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,840
Speaker 1: or kilograms. I guess I'll keep the same units. I

52
00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,280
Speaker 1: hope it's grams and not kilograms. But who knows.

53
00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 2: There you go, things to look forward to, And that's

54
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,520
Speaker 2: just a little taste ha haha of what you have

55
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,639
Speaker 2: to look forward to. On today's episode, exactly today, we're

56
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,280
Speaker 2: answering questions about things people are curious about, things they

57
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,600
Speaker 2: wonder about, things they desperate they need to know the

58
00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 2: answers to, but can't find satisfaction on the Internet, including

59
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,880
Speaker 2: chat GPT, so they write to us, and you are

60
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 2: also very welcome to write to us. And please don't

61
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,960
Speaker 2: ask your physics questions to chat GPT. It doesn't know

62
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 2: what it's talking about. Instead, write to us two questions

63
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,040
Speaker 2: at Daniel and Kelly dot org. We will give you

64
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,080
Speaker 2: a real answer for real humans that reflects real physics

65
00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,880
Speaker 2: or biology, plus poop jokes. Actually, I bet CHATCHPT could

66
00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:27,880
Speaker 2: do some good poop jokes.

67
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I've asked it. I asked it

68
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 1: to do ten jokes about parasites, and I incorporated that

69
00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 1: into my speech as president of the Hermathological Society of Washington,

70
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,640
Speaker 1: and they weren't very funny. I gotta say it wasn't

71
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:40,160
Speaker 1: very good.

72
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's get right into it. Our first

73
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,280
Speaker 2: question comes from Zach and it's a question about a

74
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,920
Speaker 2: disgusting disease slash parasite.

75
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,440
Speaker 1: Yay, And I gotta say, I'm you know, Zack, I'm

76
00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 1: a fan of for a variety of reasons. One of

77
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,800
Speaker 1: that he found our podcast through SMBC, so he's been

78
00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,280
Speaker 1: a longtime Wienersmith supporter, and and he was the first

79
00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 1: one to refer to our audience as the extraordinaries, which

80
00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,960
Speaker 1: I have absolutely stolen from him and use regularly.

81
00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,480
Speaker 2: Because our audience is extraordinary.

82
00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes, I adore the extraordinaries. And so Zach is

83
00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:15,760
Speaker 1: an extraordinary And let's hear what.

84
00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,840
Speaker 4: Zach had to ask, Hey, they're extraordinaries. This one is

85
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,120
Speaker 4: definitely for Kelly. I just saw a headline about a

86
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,599
Speaker 4: deadly disease being spread in Virginia by something called a

87
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,040
Speaker 4: kissing bug, and that the disease is some kind of parasite.

88
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 4: So I'm wondering if you as a Virginian should be worried?

89
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,520
Speaker 4: Should I be worried? Looking forward to learning more? I think?

90
00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,160
Speaker 2: All right, Kelly, tell us all about this, and everybody

91
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 2: stop eating your breakfast or lunch or whatever it was.

92
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,400
Speaker 1: I mean probably anytime I opened my mouth to say something,

93
00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,039
Speaker 1: you should do that. But all right, So, the reason

94
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 1: you worry about kissing bugs is because kissing bugs can

95
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,520
Speaker 1: transmit a disease called shagas disease.

96
00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,640
Speaker 2: Well, what is a kissing bug to start with? And

97
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:00,960
Speaker 2: why is it called a kissing bug?

98
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 5: Gosh?

99
00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,120
Speaker 1: Why is it called the kissing So they are these

100
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:04,839
Speaker 1: bugs that are you know, like maybe about the size

101
00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,280
Speaker 1: of a quarter in Latin America. They tend to live

102
00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,440
Speaker 1: in houses like wedged into cracks in the walls. They're

103
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,520
Speaker 1: called kissing bugs because they tend to bite on your face,

104
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,240
Speaker 1: for example, around your lips and stuff.

105
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,600
Speaker 2: So you don't kiss the bugs. The bugs actually keep

106
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,120
Speaker 2: you from being able to kiss other people because you

107
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,000
Speaker 2: have these gross bug bites on your lips.

108
00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:21,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it depends on who you are, you know,

109
00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:23,919
Speaker 1: no judgment, that's true.

110
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:26,960
Speaker 2: If that's your thing, all right.

111
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 1: So, but but so, what you really have to worry

112
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,159
Speaker 1: about with these bugs is that they can be infected

113
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:38,120
Speaker 1: by a disease called Chagas disease, and this is a protozoan.

114
00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,440
Speaker 1: It's unicellular. We were talking about malaria a while back,

115
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,480
Speaker 1: and malaria is also a unicellular protozoin parasite. They both

116
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,640
Speaker 1: live inside cells. So malaria lives inside our blood cells.

117
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,360
Speaker 1: Trapanozoma cruisy, which is the parasite that causes Chagas disease,

118
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,359
Speaker 1: can live inside things like muscle cells. And your heart

119
00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,920
Speaker 1: is a mid for example, and that's going to become

120
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,240
Speaker 1: a problem. So what happens is a kissing bug bites you,

121
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,400
Speaker 1: usually while you're sleeping, because they're active at night, so

122
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:09,760
Speaker 1: it can.

123
00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,200
Speaker 2: Bite like wait, they're crawling on your face at night

124
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,160
Speaker 2: while you're sleeping and biting you near the mouth.

125
00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh no, yeah, I know.

126
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,640
Speaker 2: Virginia is for lovers.

127
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,200
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, okay, all right, you know what, backup, where

128
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,520
Speaker 1: do you find kissing bugs? In twenty nine states in

129
00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,240
Speaker 1: the United States. So if you drew a line, maybe

130
00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,839
Speaker 1: like three quarters of the way up the United States,

131
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,680
Speaker 1: all the states below that line have kissing bugs, including California.

132
00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,200
Speaker 1: And I would bet you that California has a higher

133
00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 1: case load than Virginia does for reasons we'll get too later.

134
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 1: So watch it all right, I'm getting saucy here.

135
00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,640
Speaker 2: I'm just saying Virginia is for lovers. I don't know

136
00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:50,880
Speaker 2: what you're going off about here.

137
00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,200
Speaker 1: I saw your face. I knew what you meant.

138
00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,279
Speaker 2: So you're sleeping peacefully, dreaming of vacations in southern California,

139
00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,039
Speaker 2: and some bug is crawling across and bitying you on

140
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,039
Speaker 2: the lips, and inside of it it's got this protozoin.

141
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,039
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, And so when you get bit by a

142
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:10,280
Speaker 1: mosquito that has malaria, the virus essentially gets injected into

143
00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,320
Speaker 1: you with the saliva. But here what happens is the

144
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,040
Speaker 1: parasite takes a really big blood meal and it fills

145
00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,000
Speaker 1: its body up so much that it expels its feces.

146
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,120
Speaker 1: Oh I know, I'm so sorry everybody. And then and

147
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,200
Speaker 1: then when you wake up in the morning, the spot

148
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,640
Speaker 1: where you got bit itches, and so you scratch, and

149
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,520
Speaker 1: you scratch the feces into your wound, and that's how

150
00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,640
Speaker 1: you get infected. Or maybe you rub your eye and

151
00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,880
Speaker 1: you scratch the feces into your eye, and that's how

152
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:36,440
Speaker 1: it gets in.

153
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,560
Speaker 2: And so I know, my role here is to like

154
00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,160
Speaker 2: digest this and repeat it. But I really just don't

155
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,120
Speaker 2: even want to say these things coming up. Fact, that's

156
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,600
Speaker 2: really repulsive. Oh my gosh.

157
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 1: All right, it's pretty unpleasant. And there's some other routes

158
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,240
Speaker 1: that you can apparently get it, Like if you live

159
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,800
Speaker 1: in areas where there's loads of these insects and they

160
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,040
Speaker 1: happen to get like ground up into your food, you

161
00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 1: can get the parasite by ingesting it. Mom can transmit

162
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,800
Speaker 1: it to baby if she gets it when she's pregnant

163
00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 1: blood transfusions, but in the United States we check blood

164
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 1: for Shagga's disease, so that shouldn't be happening here.

165
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,200
Speaker 2: So the parasite comes through the feces of the kissing bug,

166
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,800
Speaker 2: but that's different from the mosquito. Right when the mosquito

167
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,520
Speaker 2: takes its blood meal, the parasite goes like down, it's

168
00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:18,600
Speaker 2: little straw, right.

169
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,760
Speaker 1: Yep, exactly. So like you, you know, if you were

170
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,360
Speaker 1: a partner woke up and looked at you and was

171
00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 1: like you just got bit by a kissing bug, hold

172
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,400
Speaker 1: on and they get like an alcohol wipe and they

173
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,960
Speaker 1: swipe away from where you got bit. Then you could

174
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,680
Speaker 1: make sure you got no feces in your wound, and

175
00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,080
Speaker 1: you'd probably be okay. But usually what happens is you

176
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,200
Speaker 1: wake up garaggy and it kind of itches, so you

177
00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 1: rub your face and you rub it in there.

178
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,120
Speaker 2: If your partner wakes up and you have bug poop

179
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,559
Speaker 2: on your face, and their first instinct is like, I'm

180
00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:46,200
Speaker 2: going to take care of this for you. You have

181
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 2: a nice.

182
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,520
Speaker 1: Partner, Well, what do you think they should do?

183
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,480
Speaker 2: No, they should take care of it for you. But

184
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,959
Speaker 2: if instead they're like, oh my god, that's revolting, get

185
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:54,480
Speaker 2: out of bed.

186
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,560
Speaker 1: But okay, so you might might be imagining like a

187
00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:58,839
Speaker 1: human size turd.

188
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 2: I wasn't until you said that, and now I am,

189
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:06,600
Speaker 2: thank you.

190
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,880
Speaker 1: Sorry, but no, this is like a tiny little speck

191
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,000
Speaker 1: like you might not know. It's not going to be obvious.

192
00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,640
Speaker 1: Your partner's not gonna that's okay.

193
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tiny little speck of poop on my face.

194
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,120
Speaker 2: That's no big deal. Thank you. I feel great about

195
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 2: it now.

196
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,840
Speaker 1: Yeah all right, Well hold on for a later episode

197
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 1: where we talk about the mites that are living in

198
00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,559
Speaker 1: your eyebrows, that are pooping on your face all day.

199
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,199
Speaker 1: So you know you don't always see it, all.

200
00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,160
Speaker 2: Right, so it gets into my blood because I've scratched

201
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,640
Speaker 2: this bite on my face and rubbed that tiny, little

202
00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,320
Speaker 2: dainty bit of poop into the bite, and then what

203
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:38,960
Speaker 2: happens to me?

204
00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,959
Speaker 1: All right, So early symptoms are kind of nondescript things.

205
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,960
Speaker 1: You can have like a fever, loss of appetite, diarrhea, vomiting,

206
00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,920
Speaker 1: and large lymph nodes fatigue, but most people will present

207
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,000
Speaker 1: no symptoms. One obvious symptom is that there's this thing

208
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,600
Speaker 1: called Romanya's sign, and I'm sorry, I'm sure I mispronounced it,

209
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,520
Speaker 1: which is we all have come to expect from me,

210
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,760
Speaker 1: which is a swelling around like the eye or the

211
00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:06,439
Speaker 1: part of the face where you got bit by a

212
00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 1: kissing bug. And so if you get that, then you

213
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,600
Speaker 1: should like immediately go to the doctor and be like,

214
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,360
Speaker 1: I've got chagas and they have anti parasite treatments that

215
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,600
Speaker 1: you can get, and so if you've got this swelling,

216
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,080
Speaker 1: you should go in right away and get the parasite

217
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,600
Speaker 1: wiped out. But what really becomes a problem is if

218
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,320
Speaker 1: you don't catch the parasite early on, it becomes much

219
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,360
Speaker 1: harder to treat. And what the parasite does is it's

220
00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,600
Speaker 1: living in cells and it's replicating. I know it's replicating

221
00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,400
Speaker 1: in your cells, and every once in a while it

222
00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 1: will kill the cell as it breaks out, and your

223
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,439
Speaker 1: body will produce inflammation around the area where the parasite

224
00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,600
Speaker 1: is living. And so for you know, some people who

225
00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,880
Speaker 1: have this parasite for decades, they'll start to get enlarged

226
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,040
Speaker 1: hearts from like the inflammation, and they can have heart

227
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,080
Speaker 1: failure that can result in death, or they can have

228
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 1: digestive problems. I think the parasite also lives in like

229
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,640
Speaker 1: the cells in your digestive tract, and so you can

230
00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 1: get enlarged esophagus in large colon, or you can have

231
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,040
Speaker 1: trouble eating or using the restroom. And in these cases

232
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,719
Speaker 1: it's much harder to treat the parasite. Like you can

233
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,720
Speaker 1: give some treatment to try to slow the rate at

234
00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 1: which it's spreading to the other cells, but once it's

235
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,800
Speaker 1: firmly established in your cells and they're like safe inside

236
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,560
Speaker 1: your cells, it can be pretty hard to combat. And

237
00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 1: in that case, you are mostly just trying to reduce

238
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,199
Speaker 1: the symptoms associated with having it in large heart or

239
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,440
Speaker 1: enlarged colon and stuff like that. So should I worry.

240
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't you worry anyway, whether or not you should.

241
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,160
Speaker 1: That's right. I worry about everything exactly. And two states

242
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,160
Speaker 1: that have, you know, more Chagas disease than most of

243
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,840
Speaker 1: the rest of the United States include Texas and Florida.

244
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 1: And for a while I lived in Houston, and so

245
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,160
Speaker 1: I did a bunch of research because I had a

246
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,480
Speaker 1: young daughter and I was worried we were gonna, you know,

247
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,280
Speaker 1: all get Chauga's disease. And I convinced myself that I

248
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,960
Speaker 1: personally don't have to worry much. Oh here's why.

249
00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 2: But you've done an internet deep dive that actually swaged

250
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 2: your worries. Doesn't always just inflame your worries, you know.

251
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,920
Speaker 1: I actually feel like for people who worry about parasites, yeah,

252
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,240
Speaker 1: the more you learn about them, the less you worry,

253
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,240
Speaker 1: because a lot of them have like very clear paths

254
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,280
Speaker 1: to infect people. And once you know that gives you

255
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,880
Speaker 1: the power to avoid them or at least to understand

256
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,680
Speaker 1: what behaviors are risky and what aren't so. Yes, in

257
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,480
Speaker 1: this rare case, I decided I'm not gonna worry.

258
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,440
Speaker 2: And deciding not to worry always makes it possible to

259
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:29,199
Speaker 2: not worry.

260
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 1: Right, Oh no, those are different things. Those are different things.

261
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,240
Speaker 1: What I do worry about, though, is most of the

262
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,079
Speaker 1: people in the United States who have Jagga's disease are

263
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,320
Speaker 1: people from Latin America. So this disease is a neglected

264
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,079
Speaker 1: tropical disease. It's much more common in like Central and

265
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,439
Speaker 1: South America, in areas where the housing tends to have

266
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,079
Speaker 1: like more nooks and crannies and be less insulated, and

267
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 1: so it's easier for the bugs to get inside of

268
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,120
Speaker 1: the house or inside of like factories that make juice

269
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,079
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, where the bugs can get sort

270
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,000
Speaker 1: of ground up with the rest of the juice. So

271
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,199
Speaker 1: most of the people who have it in the United

272
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,200
Speaker 1: States are immigrants, and so what I worry about is

273
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,880
Speaker 1: that our doctors aren't good at recognizing this because it

274
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,000
Speaker 1: wasn't a problem in the United States, and we're sort

275
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,240
Speaker 1: of only recognizing that it's a problem because people have

276
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,199
Speaker 1: moved to the United States with it, and so I

277
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,680
Speaker 1: think often a lot of people don't get diagnosed when

278
00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,520
Speaker 1: they could get diagnosed, and there's blood tests now, and

279
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,680
Speaker 1: so I feel like one good thing about the fact

280
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,760
Speaker 1: that this parasite has made it into the news and

281
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,440
Speaker 1: I'm hearing from like friends and family members who haven't

282
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 1: written in decades because they remembered Kelly studied parasites, and

283
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,120
Speaker 1: they want to know if they should worry about kissing bugs.

284
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,520
Speaker 1: And I'm happy to answer those questions. But I think

285
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,080
Speaker 1: one of the good things is this is getting on

286
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,679
Speaker 1: people's radars now, and so I'm hoping that people thinking,

287
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,040
Speaker 1: oh gosh, this could infect me will maybe allow us

288
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,040
Speaker 1: to raise some money so that we can raise awareness

289
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,000
Speaker 1: about this, make sure it's on every doctor's radar. Maybe

290
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,120
Speaker 1: we could get some better treatments, some better medications. But

291
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,679
Speaker 1: me living in a house that's well sealed, and as

292
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 1: someone who would be able to identify a kissing bug

293
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,480
Speaker 1: in the house if it got in the house, I'm

294
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,000
Speaker 1: not personally worried. I'm a little worried about like dogs

295
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,160
Speaker 1: that sleep outside at night, and I have a livestock

296
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,800
Speaker 1: guardian dog. I mean, this can infect any mammal, so

297
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,600
Speaker 1: like possums and raccoons tend to have it. I'm sure

298
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,320
Speaker 1: you know this could be much more of a problem

299
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,560
Speaker 1: for people who are unhoused. But as a housed person

300
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,480
Speaker 1: in a well insulated, secure house, I am not personally worried.

301
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,360
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thank you for the deep download of information,

302
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 2: as disturbing as some of it was.

303
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,200
Speaker 1: Sorry, just real quick, I want to say, uh, I

304
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,880
Speaker 1: am not a medical doctor, and so if you are

305
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,480
Speaker 1: concerned that you have jaggas disease, you should talk to

306
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,280
Speaker 1: a doctor. And you know, just because I'm worried doesn't

307
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 1: mean there's absolutely zero risk that it could be in

308
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,120
Speaker 1: your house. And this is where I reveal that I

309
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,680
Speaker 1: have anxiety, and so I still worry sometimes a little bit.

310
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 1: But I think most of your worries should be about

311
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,600
Speaker 1: the population of people who might have picked up Jagga's

312
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,400
Speaker 1: disease from their own countries and brought it here. So

313
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:53,880
Speaker 1: we should be trying to help those people, all.

314
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,120
Speaker 2: Right, So let's check them with Zach and see if

315
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,240
Speaker 2: this made him more or less worried.

316
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,480
Speaker 4: Hello again, extraordinary, Thank you so much for answering my

317
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,280
Speaker 4: question about kissing bugs. You definitely gave a more thorough

318
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,680
Speaker 4: explanation than I was even hoping for. As usual, it

319
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 4: sounds like as a Minnesotan, I don't personally have to

320
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,360
Speaker 4: worry about this unless I'm traveling somewhere warmer, but I

321
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,920
Speaker 4: appreciate the opportunity to spread some public health knowledge and

322
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 4: maybe get some more visibility for a disease that could

323
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 4: really impact people who aren't me. Thanks again.

324
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 2: All right, we're back, and we're going to do a

325
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 2: major pivot from earthly questions about the butt to mouth

326
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,880
Speaker 2: pipeline to lines of plasma in the sun.

327
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:57,600
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to see how we're going to

328
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,000
Speaker 1: get to cannibalism with this question, but hopefully we make it.

329
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,760
Speaker 2: Well, if the Sun absorbs the Earth, is that sort

330
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 2: of like solar system cannibalism.

331
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 1: Hmmm, it's a stretch. In it's a stretch. I might

332
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 1: give it to you, but I think that's not what

333
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 1: most people are thinking of.

334
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,880
Speaker 2: All right, Well, here's a really insightful question about a

335
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,240
Speaker 2: very subtle point of magnetism from Michael Woodham's.

336
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,360
Speaker 6: When I was a physics student, I learned about magnetic

337
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,960
Speaker 6: fields via Maxwell's equations. Magnetic field lines never join, never intersect,

338
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,040
Speaker 6: and never terminate, so it's impossible for one field line

339
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,520
Speaker 6: to pass through another. But when I studied astronomy, I

340
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,160
Speaker 6: learned that in the corona of the Sun, magnetic fields

341
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,080
Speaker 6: get so twisted that they break and reconnect, resulting in

342
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 6: the soil of flare. What's missing from Maxwell's equation description

343
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 6: that lets this happen? Can we observe this reconnection happening

344
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 6: in a laboratory?

345
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,320
Speaker 1: Ooh, okay, there's a lot of different ways we could

346
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,960
Speaker 1: enter this question. Let's start with what is a field?

347
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, Maxwell's equations are the ones that tell us

348
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 2: how electricity and magnetism work, and specifically how they slow

349
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 2: push back and forth between each other, how electric currents

350
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 2: can cause magnetic fields, how changing magnetic fields can cause

351
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,960
Speaker 2: electric currents, all sorts of stuff. It's a brilliant piece

352
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 2: of work from one hundred and fifty years ago, which

353
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,120
Speaker 2: was then updated and quantum mechanic eyed by fine men

354
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,879
Speaker 2: and other folks to our modern understanding of electricity and magnetism.

355
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for more history of Maxwell's equations, folks should

356
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,000
Speaker 1: listen to our episode with Kathy does Physics because she

357
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,760
Speaker 1: gave so much great insight into this story. But anyway, sorry,

358
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,199
Speaker 1: I remember Maxwell got a lot of equations wrong and

359
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 1: that made me feel great and someone else had to

360
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:32,399
Speaker 1: fix it, so sorry, go ahead.

361
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, his notation was really confusing and he made a

362
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,119
Speaker 2: lot of mistakes and it was heavy side who came

363
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 2: in and cleaned it up. He spent like a decade

364
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 2: alone in like an attic working on these equations, and

365
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 2: the equations we now know and love are mostly actually

366
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,160
Speaker 2: due to heavy sides formulation, a lot of important work

367
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 2: done by a lot of people. But the central concept

368
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,560
Speaker 2: of Maxwell's equations are these fields, the electric field and

369
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,920
Speaker 2: the magnetic field, and how they relate. So let's start,

370
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 2: since we're going to be talking about field lines, remind

371
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,760
Speaker 2: ourselves what is a field anyway?

372
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 1: So when I picture a field, I like literally picture

373
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:12,440
Speaker 1: a soccer field that maybe undulates sometimes so correct you're laughing,

374
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 1: So that must be pretty wrong.

375
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,399
Speaker 2: No, it's actually pretty accurate. Okay, Yeah, A field in

376
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,000
Speaker 2: physics is just assigning numbers to space, to saying, let's

377
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 2: put the number seven here, let's put the number nine there.

378
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 2: And if you have numbers everywhere in space, that's a field.

379
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,200
Speaker 2: Electricity and magnetism are more complicated fields because at every

380
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,399
Speaker 2: point in space they don't have a number, they have

381
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 2: a vector. They have three numbers, so like a little

382
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,399
Speaker 2: arrow with a direction and a length. So the electric

383
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 2: field is like a little arrow at every point in space,

384
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:44,720
Speaker 2: and the same for the magnetic field.

385
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,880
Speaker 1: Okay, got it, I can picture that all right.

386
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,879
Speaker 2: Now, this field, it's a very important concept, and physicists

387
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,800
Speaker 2: talk about it as if it was real, like the

388
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,360
Speaker 2: field is out there, but we don't really know that philosophically,

389
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 2: it's just sort of like a construct we use to

390
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:03,359
Speaker 2: explain phenomena we observe, and it's very useful intermediate. We

391
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 2: don't really know if the field is physical, like it's

392
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,359
Speaker 2: a field there when you're not measuring it. You can't

393
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 2: see it directly. All you can do is like drop

394
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 2: a particle into it and seize effects. So where that

395
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:15,880
Speaker 2: a field is sort of like a construct.

396
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,159
Speaker 1: All right, So are we getting philosophical or does this

397
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,200
Speaker 1: impact like predictions as well?

398
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 2: I just can't talk about fields without mentioning that this

399
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,919
Speaker 2: is something we don't know if it actually exists or not.

400
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:27,959
Speaker 1: And I'm here for the philosophy too, m hm.

401
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 2: And that's important because the next thing we're going to

402
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 2: talk about is extra philosophical, which is a field line.

403
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 2: So often we try to describe field. We try to

404
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,119
Speaker 2: draw fields on paper, and one thing you could do

405
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 2: is like draw a bunch of arrows at every point

406
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 2: in space, and that technically is a good description of

407
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 2: the field, but it's kind of hard to look at,

408
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 2: and so instead people develop this concept of a field line,

409
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 2: and a field line is a line that points along

410
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,360
Speaker 2: the direction of the field, So mathematically speaking, it's tangent

411
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 2: to the magnetic field vector. More practically, if you're looking

412
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 2: at a bar magnet, you can draw like field lines

413
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 2: from the north to the south. That shows you the

414
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 2: direction of the magnetic field along that line. And you

415
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 2: can draw more lines and you put them closer together

416
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,400
Speaker 2: where the magnetic field is changing a lot, and further

417
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 2: apart when it's not changing. So in that sense, there's

418
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 2: sort of like lines on a contour map that show

419
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,360
Speaker 2: you where the height is equal. Here shows you where

420
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,120
Speaker 2: the magnetic field is constant and the direction along which

421
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:24,919
Speaker 2: a compass would point if you put it there.

422
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm imagining my undulating soccer field that is

423
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,719
Speaker 1: made up of three points, and I've got arrows and

424
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,240
Speaker 1: they've got different heights. Is there like a line above

425
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 1: each arrow, or like above each set of arrows. I

426
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,159
Speaker 1: guess it could be whatever you decided you want. Is

427
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,199
Speaker 1: that like a reasonable way to imagine it.

428
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 2: It's like if you find a bunch of arrows that

429
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 2: are all pointing along the same direction, you would draw

430
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 2: a line along them. Okay, so back to our example

431
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 2: of contour lines. Imagine if you have a hill and

432
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 2: you draw contour lines around it, like as circles. What

433
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 2: happened when that hill gets flattened? Where do the contour

434
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 2: lines go? How do you draw contour lines on a

435
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: flat plane? You could draw them in lots of different ways.

436
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 2: They're sort of arbitrary. So imagine now you're a hill

437
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 2: that becomes flat and then it becomes a divot. So

438
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,680
Speaker 2: the contour lines in that sense sort of are discontinuous

439
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 2: because it's that moment when they're not really well defined

440
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 2: in the middle. And that's what's happening with the plasma

441
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 2: flux tubes and the magnetic field. They're clear field lines

442
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 2: in one direction, but then there's this moment when the

443
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 2: flux tubes are crossing and the things cancel out, and

444
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 2: you don't really know how to draw the field lines.

445
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 2: And then a moment later you know how to draw

446
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 2: them again, and so there's a discontinuity from before to after.

447
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 2: Got it, okay, But these are lines that we have

448
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 2: drawn in our minds. Magnetic field lines not physical things.

449
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 2: You can't let go out and touch one, push one, right,

450
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 2: somebody else could draw lines differently than you do. So

451
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: they're helpful for understanding the flow of the magnetic field,

452
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 2: but they're not physical things themselves.

453
00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:00,040
Speaker 1: Got it, Okay, They're a human construct to describe behaviors exactly.

454
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 2: Like in the same way that if you're hiking and

455
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 2: you're using a contour map, you shouldn't look for those

456
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 2: lines in the ground to know where you are, right,

457
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 2: that's foolish.

458
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 1: That would be confusing.

459
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're actually maybe kind of helpful for.

460
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 1: Hiking, right, Yeah, sure, I wouldn't want to be the

461
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,640
Speaker 1: one who had to like draw the contour lines, but yeah.

462
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,400
Speaker 2: Exactly, all right. So Michael makes this point that contour

463
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 2: lines don't terminate, they don't break, right, And this is

464
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 2: the property of magnetic fields only, not electric fields, because

465
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: we don't have magnetic monopoles in our universe. A north

466
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 2: pole or a south pole is where a magnetic field

467
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 2: would begin. So if you had just like a north

468
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 2: pole out in space by itself, the magnetic field lines

469
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 2: would all point away from it, the same way if

470
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: you put an electron in space, the electric field all

471
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 2: points away from it or towards it, depending on the

472
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 2: charge of the particle. And so in our universe we

473
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,879
Speaker 2: have no single north poles or single south poles that

474
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 2: all come together. They're dipoles. We have no magnetic monopoles

475
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 2: in our universe, and we've talked about that on a

476
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 2: previous episode, so I'll just leave that there. But what

477
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: that means is that Megan ggnetic field lines don't start

478
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 2: or end. They're always in a loop. So if you

479
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 2: have like a bar magnet, there is a magnetic field

480
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 2: that starts from the north pole and then goes down

481
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 2: to the south pole, but then it goes through the

482
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: bar magnet between the south and the north pole, so

483
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 2: it always forms this continuous loop. In order to have

484
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: a magnetic field line that ends somewhere, you'd need an

485
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 2: isolated north pole or an isolated south pole.

486
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 1: You need a monopole, okay, and Maxwell prove that with

487
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: his equations. Is that right?

488
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 2: Oh? Great question. Maxwell's equations show you that you can't

489
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 2: have a break or an end to a magnetic field

490
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 2: if you have no monopoles. But if you did find

491
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 2: a monopole, then that would do that, right, But we've

492
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 2: never seen a monopole. As far as we know, there

493
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 2: are no monopoles in the universe, So all magnetic field

494
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 2: lines are loops for that reason.

495
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: Got it, okay, but not on the Sun.

496
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: So now we're set up to talk about the Sun,

497
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: which is like maybe the most complicated electromagnetic object in

498
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: the neighborhood, right, because it's plasma. Plasma is an ionized gas.

499
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,880
Speaker 2: So you take something like hydrogen, which has a proton

500
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: and an electron, and you heat it up so that

501
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: the electrons are no longer bound by the protons. They're

502
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: flying around free. So you have a gas which is

503
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: already very complicated to model because it's high density, high pressure,

504
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 2: it's chaotic. And now you add the fact that there

505
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: are electric charges on all those particles. So not only

506
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: do you have to deal with complicated fluid dynamics, plus

507
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: you have electric and magnetic fields in there. So this

508
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 2: is a whole area of study. It's called magneto hydrodynamics,

509
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: and it's famously a headache.

510
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: I mean, but it sounds pretty cool.

511
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: It has a cool name. Yeah, that's true. So the

512
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 2: equations of magnetohydrodynamics are the equations of fluid dynamics, which

513
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 2: are famously complicated, plus the equations of electromagnetism, and so

514
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: you get all these really complicated effects. And in the

515
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: Sun you get these tubes of plasma that are flowing

516
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: like currents, and because it's electrically charged, there is an

517
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: electric current and so you get magnetic fields generated in

518
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: lines around them, and there's really complicated behavior because the

519
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 2: Sun is chaotic and turbulent. So these tubes of plasma

520
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: sometimes they're flowing nicely alongside each other like lanes on

521
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 2: a highway, but sometimes somebody crosses the lane. Everything gets

522
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: tangled up and the tubes do all sorts of crazy

523
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 2: stuff and they snap in their rearrange and when that happens,

524
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: you get crazy effects from the magnetic fields also.

525
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: And just to be clear, so I think you told

526
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: me in a previous episode that we really have never

527
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: seen a monopole, and so it's not that the Sun

528
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: is creating monopoles something else. It's just all this craziness

529
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: when they're intersecting and fluids up.

530
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 2: Exactly. The Sun is not creating monopoles as far as

531
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 2: we know, but many popular science treatments describe this behavior

532
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 2: where complicated tubes of plasma are crossing and snapping, doing

533
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: all sorts of stuff as magnetic field lines tangling and breaking. Ok,

534
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: and this is what Michael is asking about. He's like,

535
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: doesn't that violate Maxwell's equations? And the answer is no,

536
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: it doesn't violate Maxiwell's equations. Though the description is a

537
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 2: little bit confusing, and we're going to take it apart

538
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: and make it clear.

539
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: All right, take it apart, Daniel.

540
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: So what's happening is that you get plasma currents and

541
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: sometimes they're going in opposite direction. Sometimes they're the same directions,

542
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 2: but they come near each other, and sometimes when they

543
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 2: come close to each other, the magnetic field between them

544
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: can cancel. Remember that magnetic fields are a vector and

545
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 2: they're linear. So if you have like a magnetic field

546
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 2: generated by one object that's in one direction, and a

547
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: magnetic field and the exact opposite direction generated by something else,

548
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 2: they can cancel each other out. So you can have

549
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: an area between two like tubes of plasma with no

550
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: magnetic field in it. The two things can cancel. Even

551
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: if you're in an area a very strong magnetic activity. Right,

552
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: This is just like destructive interference between waves, Right, You

553
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 2: can have a point in a wave where there's no amplitude,

554
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 2: and so that's what's happening that there are locations between

555
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: these plasma flux tubes that have no magnetic field because

556
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: of this cancelation. And at that point, the direction of

557
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: the field lines are not well defined. You could draw

558
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: them in lots of different directions because the field is

559
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: zero there and the derivative can be zero as well.

560
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: And so if you're going to sit down and draw

561
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: the field lines, you have some arbitrary choices to make,

562
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: and the moment before that happens and the moment after

563
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: that happens, the field lines you would draw are very different. So, yes,

564
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 2: the field lines from one moment to another having like

565
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: a discontinuity where you're like, before this thing happens, I

566
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 2: would draw the field lines here, just after it happens,

567
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: I would draw the field lines there. And there's not

568
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: a smooth transition where you can say at every moment

569
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: the field lines move. But remember, field lines are arbitrary.

570
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: They're what we make up in our minds, just like

571
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: our description. It's like back to our contour example. If

572
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 2: you had an earthquake and you have to draw contour

573
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: lines over a peak somewhere. You're like, well, I could

574
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 2: draw contour line in many different directions as this peak

575
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 2: is shifting and going up and down, and so there's

576
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: a moment there where you don't know exactly how to

577
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 2: draw the field lines. So what's really happening is the physics,

578
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: the physical things. That's happening is that these flux tubes

579
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 2: are breaking and snapping and doing all sorts of crazy stuff,

580
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 2: and that's creating the solar flare, where the Sun is

581
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 2: going to spit out a huge archa plasma that maybe

582
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: is going to eat the Earth in an active astronomical cannibalism.

583
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: Oh nice.

584
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: And the field lines are confusing, But the field lines

585
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: are not breaking. There's no divergence there. There's no source

586
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 2: of the field lines. It's just that the field lines.

587
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 2: You draw them one way and then you would draw

588
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: them another way a moment later, so they are not

589
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: actually breaking. There are no monopoles in the sun.

590
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: Okay. So I'm trying to decide, does the fact that

591
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: we're not calling this a break like make this concept

592
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: less useful because it's clearly a human construct or does

593
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: this just teach us something particularly important about the Sun

594
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: in this framework that we've created.

595
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: I think it also teaches us something about the limitations

596
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: of language. You know, the field lines transition from here

597
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: to there, but they're never have any divergence. They are continuous,

598
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: there's never an end point, even though there's a discontinuity

599
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: from moment to moment about how you would draw them. So, yes,

600
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: the Sun is chaotic, and we have a lot to

601
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: learn about how plasma works and how to keep it stable.

602
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: And we've done a bunch of experiments to see these

603
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: kinds of effects here on Earth. That's the second part

604
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: of Michael's question. Yes, we see this kind of stuff

605
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: happening all the time in magnetic confinement fusion when we

606
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: build tokamacs to try to recreate the conditions of the

607
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: Sun so that we can have fusion here on Earth.

608
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: And this is something people work on and struggle with.

609
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: They try to minimize the chaos and keep those flux

610
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: tubes steady, and so there's lots of observations of these

611
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: kinds of effects in the lab. Usually it's what you

612
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: don't want to happen, but we see it anyway. So

613
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: plasma turbulence is definitely something we've seen in the lab

614
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: we can recreate. We struggle to model it because turbulence

615
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: is very difficult. It requires serious computation because it's chaotic,

616
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: so it's very, very sensitive to the initial conditions. But

617
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 2: it's not new physics in the sense that it's like

618
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: a magnetic monopole or violating Maxwell's equations.

619
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: Can we still apply Maxwell's equations in these conditions or.

620
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay, absolutely. The only time you can't apply

621
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: Maxwell's equations is when you have quantum effects, like at

622
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: the level of photons and individual particles doing quantum stuff.

623
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: But the Sun is big and basically classical, and so

624
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: you can definitely use Maxwell's equations to describe it. And

625
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: then when there are quantum effects, you use quantum electrodynamics,

626
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: which is just the quantum version of Maxwell's equations anyway,

627
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, Maxwell was right as far as we know.

628
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: Okay, and so that wouldn't be quantum magnetohydrodynamics, which sounds

629
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: even cooler, right, That's that would be a different field.

630
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: I'm not aware of that, but that's a cool title

631
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: for a grant proposal.

632
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: There you go. All right, let's see if Michael feels

633
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: like he understands Maxwell's equations a little better now.

634
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 6: Thank you. That was an informative answer. I enjoyed the

635
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 6: description of magnetic field lines if a sending in this

636
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 6: Christian being one in how you'd handled that, I am

637
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 6: mildly surprised that the magnetic field lines manage their realignment

638
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 6: treck without resorting to quantum mechanics.

639
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: All right, we're back. We started on Earth understanding kissing

640
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: bugs and poop, then we went out into space to

641
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 2: understand what's happening in the sun, and now we're gonna

642
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: bring that all together to talk about poop in space.

643
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I love I study parasites and space.

644
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: We've got both of them in one episode, and poop

645
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: is what connects them. Amazing, and that is a good

646
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: summary of my life.

647
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 2: So we should have invited our vice president for poop

648
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: research on this podcast.

649
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, why is she not president of poop researcher. Clearly

650
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: not president of poop research.

651
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 2: Well, we got a lot of vice presidents, you know,

652
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: and so I was president for this, vice president for.

653
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: That, got it all right, Well, but.

654
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: You're right she should be president. Yeah, I'll propose that

655
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: to the next board meeting.

656
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, that sounds good. It doesn't seem like anyone

657
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: else in your family's qualified. I'll just say, but all.

658
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: Right, and I think that we should send our answer here,

659
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: not just to John, but also to Katrina for response.

660
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: I'm nervous.

661
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: Y'all should have seen Kelly's face.

662
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: Well, the president of poop research at the whites And Institute.

663
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a big deal.

664
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, your adjunct status at the whites In Institute

665
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: might be on the line here.

666
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: Oh no, I guess the good news is I don't

667
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: get a lot of perks from that that adjunct status.

668
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 2: What what the prestige alone?

669
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's right, that's I guess I get friendship,

670
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: which is the most valuable thing on this planet.

671
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: All right, let's stop beating around the bush, and let's

672
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: hear John's question about poop in space.

673
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 5: Hello, Daniel and Kelly. I had three questions in regards

674
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 5: to the microbiome in space? Do the microbiomes of all

675
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 5: the people on the issity given time become the same? Second?

676
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 5: How do things change with every supply delivery or crew change?

677
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 5: And third, how does zerog affect the microbiome?

678
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 7: Thanks?

679
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, loads of amazing questions here. So I

680
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: split these questions up. So first, let's talk about do

681
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: the astronaut microbiomes become the same on the International Space Station.

682
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: And let's start by saying they don't become the same,

683
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: but they do become more similar. So, you know, the

684
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: same would imply the exact same species and the exact

685
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: same abundances. That's not what happens.

686
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: All right. Well, let's start by reminding people what a

687
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: microbiome is and why it might become the same anyway.

688
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Well, I just assume that all of our

689
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: listeners have listened to all of Katrina's amazing episodes. I'm

690
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: going to butter Katrina up here at the beginning of

691
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: the answer right now. So all right, so, the you know,

692
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: your your microbiome is the collection of viruses, bacteria, fungi

693
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: that live all over your body, including in your gut,

694
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: in your face, in your saliva, you know, in your mouth,

695
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: on your teeth. They're everywhere, and they can be important

696
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: for a lot of different reasons. They can, you know,

697
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: support inflammation, which is bad for you. They can help

698
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: you digest food, which is good for you. They can

699
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: help you battle pathogens, which is obviously good for you.

700
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: And so it's a dynamic community that changes over time

701
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons. And one of the ways

702
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: that it changes on Earth is if you move in

703
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 1: with somebody new and you spend a lot of time

704
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: with them, you over time have microbiomes that are more similar.

705
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: Not necessarily exactly the same, because maybe you all are

706
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: eating different foods when you're at work or something like that,

707
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: but you have more similar microbiomes when you live with

708
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:41,919
Speaker 1: someone over time.

709
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 2: So you love someone, you live with them, you end

710
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 2: up eating their poop. Yeah, another example of the butt

711
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 2: to face pipeline.

712
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,959
Speaker 1: That's right. I mean, even if you don't love them,

713
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: but you live with them, you're probably eating their poop.

714
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: I feel like it's easier to digest that fact if

715
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: you do love them. But yeah, all right, all right.

716
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 2: So then the fascinating question is we know that happens

717
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 2: for roommates here on Earth, and the question is what

718
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: about roommates in space? How does this happen and is

719
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: affected by supplies or crew changes or zero G?

720
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: Yeah? All right, so there was I was able to

721
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: find a study where they looked at astronauts, nine of

722
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: them that were in space for somewhere between six to

723
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: twelve months on the International Space Station, and they looked

724
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: at their microbiomes on different parts of their bodies, and

725
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: then they compared the microbiomes on different parts of their

726
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: bodies to each other, to each of the different astronauts,

727
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: and they did find that when people went into space,

728
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 1: first of all, some aspects of their microbiomes got more diverse.

729
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: So they went into space and they picked up a

730
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: few new bacterial species, and that could have been from

731
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: the astronauts that just arrived, or from astronauts that were

732
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: on there, from the crew before and left some of

733
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: their microbes behind.

734
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: Or alien invasive microbes.

735
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: Probably, yes, Daniel, Probably yes, or no.

736
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: That voice tells you Kelly is humoring me.

737
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: Well, we at the Whites and Institute have to have

738
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: a lot of patients.

739
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 2: Ooh wow, you're angling for that patient's award.

740
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: Huh oh, No, Katrina's got it.

741
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: She's one of twenty years running. Let me tell you

742
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 2: that's right.

743
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: Yes, it's definitely Katrina's Okay.

744
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: All right, So they're out there, they're living together, obviously,

745
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: they're sharing the same air, they're using the same bathroom.

746
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: So all this stuff's going to get intermingled, it makes

747
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: sense for their microbiomes to become intermingled, and.

748
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: That is indeed what they found. They found that if

749
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: you look at their gut microbes, over time, they became

750
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: more similar, so they had similar species over time, so

751
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: like some people picked up some bacterial species, some maybe

752
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: lost some bacterial species, and so over time they do

753
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,439
Speaker 1: start having similar community members that they're swapping. And they

754
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: think that a big part of why this is happening

755
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: is because they're all eating pretty much the same limited

756
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: food option. So you know, the International Space Station does

757
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: have two hundred different items that you can order, but

758
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: it's all, you know, it's all pretty similar and has

759
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: a lot of the same ingredients, and so their gut

760
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: microbiome is being fed pretty similar stuff, and part of

761
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: what you eat supports different members of your gut community.

762
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: And so they argued that they thought food was driving

763
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: a lot of this similarity. But also they're sharing an

764
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: environment in pretty intimate small quarters. I think the International

765
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 1: Space Station. You know, if you put two one bedroom

766
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: apartments together, the International Space Station probably doesn't have much

767
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: more room than that, and there's like, you know, six

768
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: to ten roommates in there, so it's pretty cramped, lots

769
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,919
Speaker 1: of microbes. You can't shower. You can like wipe yourself down,

770
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: but you're not like, you know, really getting a nice

771
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 1: shower like you would here at home. But they noted

772
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: that even astronauts that tended to be working in different

773
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: parts of the International Space Station and didn't spend a

774
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: lot of time together still ended up with similar microbes,

775
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: which is why they thought maybe it had something to

776
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: do with the food.

777
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: Even if you're just breathing the same area and not enough,

778
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 2: even if you're not like often touching the same surfaces,

779
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 2: it feels like that should be plenty.

780
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, they felt like food was pretty important,

781
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: but I don't see why it wouldn't be. Hey, we're

782
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: touching the same surfaces and then we touch our food,

783
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: and that's the kind of you know, that determines what

784
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: bacteria are going into our body. And at the end

785
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: of the day, it's almost certainly not just one thing.

786
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: It's probably a lot of different things.

787
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 2: And how they replicated this kind of environment here on

788
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: Earth in order to test and to understand how long

789
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: it takes and underweth conditions.

790
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: Yes, so there have been two like year long analog

791
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: experiments that they've done here on Earth. It was Mars

792
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 1: five hundred, which was done in Russia, and they looked

793
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: at how the microbe changed. When you have quote unquote

794
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: astronauts pretending to go on a mission to Mars.

795
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 2: Quote unquote astronauts. Wow, wow, fire there, Kelly.

796
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: I don't think that there'd be too much debate amongst

797
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: the community of professional astronauts that they are simulation astronauts

798
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: instead of astronaut astronauts.

799
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 2: But I bet when they introduce themselves they don't say

800
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 2: I'm an astronaut, and then they use air quotes.

801
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: They might call themselves an analog astronaut or something like that.

802
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly what the term is, but you know,

803
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: I think the FAA has a rule where you have

804
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 1: to have, you know, gone past the von Carmen line

805
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: to be called an astronaut, and so, you know, I

806
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: think technically I'm not being a.

807
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: Jerk, no, but I think using scare quotes, but some

808
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 2: in the category of like kids who have dressed up

809
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: as a quote unquote astronaut for Halloween, not really an astronauts.

810
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: I see, But only you were seeing the scare quotes

811
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 1: you outed.

812
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 2: Me, but you said, quote unquote astronaut anyway, Oh, shoot,

813
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: these quote unquote astronauts, should we dig them seriously? Have

814
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: done this really incredible thing of living isolated for six

815
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: months or up to a year. So what did we

816
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 2: learn from these studies?

817
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: They found that the dominant species in the microbiome tended

818
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: to say the same, So like the species that they

819
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: had the most of when they went in there persisted.

820
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: But the more rare strains of bacteria that they had

821
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: when they went into the facility, those tended to become

822
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 1: the same. So like your dominant bacterial species, that was

823
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: pretty similar. But some of the like rare ones started

824
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,439
Speaker 1: to homogenize between the crew members, and for two of them,

825
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: they changed back to their original state pretty soon after

826
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 1: this analog mission was done. And I won't use quotes

827
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: around missions so that you don't imply that I'm laughing

828
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: at people, and all right, and then the other four

829
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: had a Mars five hundred esque microbiome for up to

830
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: six months, so those changes persisted for them, and the

831
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 1: surfaces inside of Mars five hundred started to look sort

832
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: of like the microbiome on the exterior, you know, like

833
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: the skin parts of the crew, which is something we

834
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: also see on the International Space Station. And then there

835
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: was also a study on the Hawaiian Space Exploration Analog

836
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: and Simulation four mission, so that's High Seas four and

837
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: they found and this is gross that here, let me

838
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: find the quote microbial diversity of skin samples from the

839
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: High Seas four crew successively increased and showed a delayed

840
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: longitudinal homogenization with microbial diversity estimates from surfaces, mainly due

841
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: to complications with the composting toilet. So the point here

842
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: is that there was a lot of poop getting on

843
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: their skin and so they were seeing evidence of that

844
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: on their skin microbiome. Wow, and that was impacting the results.

845
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 1: And space is gross. So this is actually.

846
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: Poop to skin pipeline, the poop to skin pipeline.

847
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: So anyway, composting toilet was getting things pretty gross up

848
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: in there.

849
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 2: Do you think in the High Seas they were waking

850
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: up with poop on their face the way people in

851
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: Virginia do when they're bitten by a kissing bug?

852
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: You know, I would bet that La has a lot

853
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: more cases of kissing bug than all of Virginia.

854
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 2: So all right, we're gonna look that up and see

855
00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: look up.

856
00:41:59,120 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: Sounds good, all right.

857
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: So the other part of his question was whether this

858
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 2: was affected by deliveries or crew changes.

859
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: So I don't think it's very affected by delivery. So

860
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: they're pretty careful to sterilize things before they put them

861
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: in the modules to send them up to space. They're

862
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: super careful about that, like sterilizing the food and whatnot,

863
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: And so there's probably not a ton of microbes in there.

864
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it would be amazing to me if there

865
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: were no microbes in there, because like, you can never

866
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: get rid of all the microbes. But I don't think

867
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: that's a big contributor, and neither did the papers that

868
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 1: I read. They didn't imply that was a big contributor either.

869
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: But there was a study that looked at different surfaces

870
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: on the International Space Station and they looked at how

871
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: the microbes on those surfaces changed over time as crew

872
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: members changed over thirty three months, so crew members tend

873
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 1: to change every like three or six months or something

874
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: like that, and they didn't see that the bacteria on

875
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: the surfaces of the International Space Station were changing over

876
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: time in ways that seemed to reflect changes in the crew.

877
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:01,919
Speaker 1: So you'd get a change in the crew, and you'd

878
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: look at their skin microbiome, and a few months later

879
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: the surfaces of the International Space Station would look more

880
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: like the microbiome of the crew, And then a new

881
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: crew would come and that cycle would sort of start again.

882
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: They had similarity in species, but not necessarily similarity in

883
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: the abundance. So, for example, maybe the humans and the

884
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: surfaces both had bacteria species ABC and D hypothetical example.

885
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: But for humans, maybe ABC and D were at abundances

886
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: of like, you know, eighty percent, ten percent, five percent,

887
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: and five percent, respectively, But on the surfaces maybe it

888
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 1: was something more like twenty five percent for each species.

889
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: So different abundances, but similar species. So that at least

890
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: suggests that when a new crew comes, they're spreading their

891
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: microbe through the habitat and likely to spread that to

892
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: whoever else is residing on the station.

893
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: And something I've learned from our president for micromial research

894
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 2: is that the abundance of the bacteria depend essentially on

895
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: the conditions, like are you feeding at the right thing,

896
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 2: is at the right temperature, And so I wonder if

897
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: the conditions on the space station are different from the

898
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: conditions in the ground in some important way that you

899
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 2: get like the growth of a different bacteria. And the

900
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 2: listener asked this great question about zero G does gravity

901
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: effect the growth of microbes?

902
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the listener also pointed out that it's probably

903
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: a really hard thing to study, and so I'd like

904
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: to highlight first that, Yeah, it's a really hard thing

905
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: to study. So, I mean, if you're looking at the

906
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: microbiome of astronauts, you know, micro gravity is changing, but

907
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: they're also exposed to a little bit more space radiation.

908
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: They're probably more stressed out than they are on Earth

909
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: because they have a very packed schedule of experiments and

910
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 1: stuff that are super expensive, and they don't sleep very well.

911
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: There's data on that. So a lot of stuff is

912
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: changing when they're up there, and it's hard to sort

913
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: of isolate things. Yeah, we have done some studies that

914
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: suggest that microgravity impacts bacteria in a variety of different ways.

915
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 1: So this isn't talking about microbiomes. This is just looking

916
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: at bacteria and they form biofilms differently. So biofilms or

917
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: when bacteria sort of like adhere themselves together, and that

918
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: makes them a little bit more resistant to the immune

919
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 1: system and antibiotics and stuff like that. They also produce

920
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: different amounts of virulence factors, they have different levels of

921
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: resistance to antimicrobials. So we do have some evidence that

922
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: micro gravity impacts bacteria in some ways, but it's not

923
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: clear what the impact is on the microbiome. So when

924
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: you're aggregating all of the bacteria, and I was able

925
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: to find one study that was starting to try to

926
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: separate these different pieces, and so what they did was

927
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: it was a study with rodents where they put the

928
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: rodents in a harness where they were trying to simulate

929
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 1: lunar gravity by lifting them up so that only like

930
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 1: one sixth of their mass was like touching the grounds

931
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: with like they weighed one sixth as much. And then

932
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: they also were doing some radiation experiments and they did

933
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: find that like some community members and the microbiome shifted

934
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: a bit. But it's kind of hard for me to

935
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 1: know if like feeling like you way less is going

936
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: to be the same as really being in a microgravity environment.

937
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: And you're in this harness and that's probably stressful because

938
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: you know, the rodents are like what that Why am

939
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,919
Speaker 1: I confined? I can't move around? It's hard to nail

940
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: this stuff down, and I wasn't able to find studies

941
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: that tried to nail it down in humans. There's reason

942
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: to suggest that the low gravity environment probably is impacting

943
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: bacteria in a way that scales up to the level

944
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: of the microbiome. But I think at the moment, we

945
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: don't really understand that.

946
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 2: All right, awesome, well that's fascinating. Look at microbiomes in

947
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 2: space and the life of astronauts. Let's send this answer

948
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 2: over to our president for microbial research and hear what

949
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 2: she has to say.

950
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 1: And let's hear what John has to say. Absolutely, Oh,

951
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 1: I'm worried about what Katrina has to say. I hope

952
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: I got it right.

953
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 7: So Katrina, would you think, Well, I have to say

954
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 7: I was playing in my mind the studies that Kelly

955
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 7: brought up like seconds before she said them. So that

956
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 7: was very satisfying. So nice job with your research, Kelly.

957
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 7: In some cases, that's.

958
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: Some real approval right there from the president.

959
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 7: In some cases those are like talks I have seen,

960
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 7: like I met the scientists who led the studies. So,

961
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 7: for example, the microgravity studies with the bacteria showing the

962
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 7: changes in biofilm formation and urulence factor expression.

963
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 3: I met the scientist, a scientist who led a study

964
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 3: like that.

965
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 7: It was published in Nature Gravity, and she had these

966
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 7: crazy contraptions where they would kind of like at the

967
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 7: at an amusement park where they like spin you in

968
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 7: circles and then there's less gravity.

969
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 3: They did that to the microbes.

970
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 7: So she was conducting those experiments on Earth but changing

971
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 7: the gravity that the microbes felt.

972
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 3: And so that was a cool way that those experiments

973
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 3: were done.

974
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,919
Speaker 7: And yeah, I think there are changes that we've only

975
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 7: studied at the smaller scale and we don't know how

976
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 7: they synchronize up at the bigger scale, which I know

977
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 7: is theme for you guys. So you know, does one

978
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 7: microbe by itself when put together with ten to the

979
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 7: twenty nine microbes as.

980
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 3: There like a new simplicity that emerges, I don't know.

981
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 7: And then just on the space analog front, I also

982
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 7: I was really interested in that for a long time.

983
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 7: In fact, I wrote proposals to the Australian and Arctic

984
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 7: Division many times with the hope of studying the Australian

985
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 7: Antarctic researchers who live on some of the most isolated

986
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 7: bases down in Antarctica, sometimes only like ten people will

987
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 7: spend the whole winter eight months together with no new

988
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 7: shipments coming in, and so it's a way of learning

989
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 7: about people in close quarters and experiencing stress. That's similar

990
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 7: to what astronauts experience minus the whole gravity thing. And

991
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 7: I think they have a little more access to fresh air,

992
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 7: for example. But anyway, I never did get the proposal

993
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 7: to do that, but I think it's really interesting. They

994
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 7: have definitely seen changes in how your immune system misfunctioning.

995
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 7: And just keep in mind that your microbes and your

996
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 7: immune cells are a big a lot going on with

997
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 7: the interactions between the immune cells and the microbes. So

998
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 7: as stress and environment change in your immune system changes,

999
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 7: that's a big pressure that will influence which microbes can

1000
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 7: thrive in your body. So I'm very sure that's a

1001
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 7: big part of how the.

1002
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 3: Microbiomes change and all around.

1003
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 7: I think, yeah, it's just about exposure to the microbes

1004
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 7: from other people around you, and the conditions like the

1005
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 7: food will also have an impact. But it's like you

1006
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 7: need the microbes and the nutrients together to shape the community,

1007
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 7: So I'm sure both of those forces are really important.

1008
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 7: I actually also recently saw a NASA scientist give a

1009
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 7: talk about contamination from even astronauts wearing their spacesuits going

1010
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 7: out on like spacewalks and on the surfaces of the

1011
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 7: International Space Station, for example, and if you take swabs

1012
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 7: out there, you find that there are microbes being dribbled,

1013
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 7: which is like, there's a real goal of the whole

1014
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 7: space community to avoid contaminating the universe with our Earth's microbes,

1015
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 7: and that's.

1016
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 3: A really big challenge.

1017
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 7: So even the space suits, which are pretty well contained,

1018
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 7: do not entirely prevent microbes from dribbling out. So if

1019
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 7: we went up to Mars, I mean this is obviously

1020
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 7: I have no idea when we might be doing this,

1021
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 7: But if we were to send people in space suits

1022
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 7: up to Mars to sample the rocks and try to

1023
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 7: learn about life, we would have a hard time not

1024
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 7: contaminating with our own microbes. And a lot of our

1025
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 7: methods are for low abundance, low biomass samples.

1026
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 3: They are right at.

1027
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 7: The limit of detection, so it starts to become impossible

1028
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 7: to distinguish what's showing up in the kit reagents versus

1029
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 7: what's actually coming from the environment that you're sampling. So

1030
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 7: those are the things that the space microbiology community are

1031
00:50:58,920 --> 00:50:59,439
Speaker 7: thinking about.

1032
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: I think, So what grade would you give Kelly?

1033
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 7: Oh, my gosh, I mean one hundred percent? Maybe actually

1034
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 7: a plus?

1035
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 2: All right, good job Kelly.

1036
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 5: Hello Daniel and Kelly. Yes, you answered my questions, the

1037
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 5: most interesting point being that the major components of people's

1038
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 5: microbiomes remain stable under such close and isolated conditions. The

1039
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 5: immediate follow ups that king to mind were whether the

1040
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 5: same effect was visible on the surfaces of the ISS.

1041
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: Thanks hey, John, great follow up question. So the microbiome

1042
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: on the surface of the International Space Station, like you know,

1043
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: the various computer screens and stuff like that, do tend

1044
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 1: to change over time in ways that reflect the makeup

1045
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: of the crew that's on the International Space Station. So

1046
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: there's a lag between new crew members coming on and

1047
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: all of the microbes that are covering their hands and

1048
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: their arms sort of getting on all of the surfaces.

1049
00:51:54,600 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 2: Thanks John, all right, Thanks everybody for these wonderful questions.

1050
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: We thoroughly enjoy these discussions and gives us the opportunity

1051
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,760
Speaker 2: to dig deep into a question we have sometimes wanted

1052
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 2: to understand better ourselves. So thank you very much for

1053
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 2: sharing your curiosity. Remember that science moves forward because of

1054
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 2: human curiosity and that includes you.

1055
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 1: So send us your questions at questions at Daniel and

1056
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: Kelly dot org, or you can join us on our

1057
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: discord channel. You can find an invitation to our discord

1058
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 1: channel on our website danieland Kelly dot org, or follow

1059
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: us on Instagram, Twitter, or blue Sky at D and

1060
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 1: K Universe.

1061
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: Have a great day, everyone,