1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Over the last twenty years since I started my foundation work, 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: I spent a long time in Africa. I've learned a 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: lot about how different tribes in different regions live and 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: work and relate to each other. One of the most 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: impressive examples of that is how people in the Central 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: Highlands of Africa greet each other when they pass each other. 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: Instead of saying good morning, hello, how are you and 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: replying I'm fine, the reply translated into English is I 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: see you. Just think about what that means for a minute. 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: What they're really saying is I acknowledge your presence, your humanity, 11 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: you matter to me. It's a very moving, empowering practice. 12 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: So why am I telling you this Because in today's episode, 13 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: I'm joined by someone who's dedicated his life to forcing 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: people to see other people, to grapple with the fact 15 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: that all our lives are interconnected, and then what happens 16 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: to one person anywhere affects all of us everywhere. Bernard 17 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: and Reid Levi is a French philosopher, filmmaker, activists and 18 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: author of more than forty five books. His latest project, 19 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: the documentary and accompanying book titled The Will to See, 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: highlights the human suffering created by conflicts in places like Nigeria, Somalia, Bangladesh, Libya, 21 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: and Afghanistan. The most relevant today, he spent time on 22 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: the front lines of eastern Ukraine, where people have been 23 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: dealing with the Russian occupation since well. This conversation was 24 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: taped before the unjustified and totally unprovoked, full scalal invasion 25 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: of Ukraine by Russia. The insights he shares about the 26 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: bravery of the Ukrainian people and the importance of their 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: struggle for freedom and against oppression rings even truer today. 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: I hope you will find this talk as eliminating as 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: I did. Thanks for joining me today. Thanks to you, 30 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: Mr President, so great honor for me to join. Well, 31 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: I've been a fan of your work for a long time. 32 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: But for those listening who may not know you, can 33 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: you take just a couple of minutes to tell us 34 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: about yourself and how did you get in to this 35 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: work going all over the world to see the unseen? 36 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: You know, Mr President, I was I was trained and 37 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: shaped as a philosopher, and I decided to practice a 38 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: philosophy opening the windows, opening the doors, and going and 39 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: stepping out as much as possible outside. But at the 40 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: beginning there is philosophy. And when I was a young man, 41 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: there was a great German philosopher who was very influential. 42 00:02:55,280 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: He was dead, of course, called Edmund Husel. Edmond herself 43 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: had a piece of work composed of two big blocks. 44 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: One block was pure philosophy, nearly mathematical logic, and the 45 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: other world the other piece. The other block was what 46 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: he called phenomenology, which means going to the real things, 47 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: going to fight with the things, going to confront the 48 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: the anger of the world. So on one side, pure philosophy, 49 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: on the other side the anger of the world. All 50 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: my life, since I was a teenager, I decided to 51 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: combine the two, to have a real academic, solid, consistent 52 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: body of philosophy on one side, and to apply this 53 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: body of philosophy fee to make it work, to plug 54 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: it in the world, and to try to intervene in 55 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: the world. In one sentence, I am these very strange 56 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: animal which exists a lot in France, a little less 57 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: in America, which is a committed intellectual, a public intellectual. 58 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: I try to do both. Did you always know you 59 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: wanted to do this? You speak very eloquently in the 60 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: world to see about the influence of your father's life. 61 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about that, because I think in 62 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: the modern world, people spend so much time on the 63 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: internet with their devices. They have more information than ever before, 64 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: but I sometimes think they understand it less. Talk a 65 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: little about your example of your father and what he 66 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: did in the resistance and for the cause of freedom 67 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: against Strico and the Spanish Civil War. My father was 68 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: my my hero, and I think he was a true 69 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: hero beyond what I think myself. You are right, Mr. President. 70 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: When he was not quite eighteen years old, he engaged 71 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: himself in the International Brigade in Spain, serving the Republican 72 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: government against the fascism. He was one of those not 73 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: men boys seventeen years old. Eighteen years old, You are 74 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: a boy. You are a teenager who thought that fascism 75 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: was a danger for the world. He felt that immediately 76 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: that there was a very dark cloud in the sky 77 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: of the whole Europe, that this cloud was going to burst, 78 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: and that it had to be fought. So he did 79 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: that very young international Brigade in Spain. Then a few 80 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: years after he was one of the heroes of the 81 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: Free French Army. It started with the Army of Africa. 82 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: He was in the Battle of Tunisia, Libya, Italy. This 83 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: for me was crucial because my father gave me, transplitted 84 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: me the idea that it is better to take the 85 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: risk of dying, standing that living on the knees, it's 86 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: better to have a great life than to have a 87 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: coward life. In your new film and book, The World 88 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: to See, you highlight some specific forgotten wars. How did 89 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: you choose them? And what are the common threads you 90 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: notice that length the situations and all these different countries. 91 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: The principle of the choice was very simple forgotten forgotten wars. 92 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: I remember, by the way, twenty years ago, before The 93 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: Will to See, I made the first series of reportage 94 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: of the same sort. I did that for Lamonde, the 95 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: French daily newspaper Mode, and I remember the team of 96 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: Lament coming to me and offering me to hire me 97 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: as a reporter. I said, come on, I'm a philosopher, 98 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: I'm a writer. Why should I be a reporter? No? 99 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: Except except, I said, if you send me to places 100 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: where you never send anybody. Except if you send me 101 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: to places which are forgotten. The people of Lamonde, like 102 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: New York Times Lament. You know it is the arrist 103 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: the cream of the cream. They told me, Mr Levy, 104 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: this does not take east. Every war is covered by us. 105 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: There is no forgotten wars. Everything is on the map. 106 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: I said, okay, let's check. Give me two days and 107 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: I will come back with a series of wars which 108 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: number one last since at least ten years. Number two 109 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: count tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dead in 110 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: a short time. And number three to which you never 111 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: devoted a big article. Don deal. Two days after I 112 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: came with this list of forgotten wars, which I covered 113 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: for the moment for this book, The Will to See, 114 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: I did the same. I went to a series of 115 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: magazines and newspaper and I said, I want to go 116 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: two places to which you did not devote and the 117 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: reporters since tenures example Morgat issue in Somalia, example, the 118 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: trenches in Ukraine, the front line between the Russians today 119 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: and the Ukenyan army talk a little about Ukraine. Where 120 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: are we know? What do you think is gonna happen? 121 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: My feeling, but it's a bet I might be wrong tonight. 122 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: My feeling that President put In would do a huge mistake. 123 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: If he decided to invade Ukraine, it will be a 124 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: huge mistake for too reasons. I know the spots. I 125 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: spent some time there. I had the honor to be 126 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: embedded among the special units of the Uknyan Army. Number 127 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: one they are good. Number two they are patriots, they 128 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: are ready to defend their land. And number three detail, 129 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: but which is not just in detail. I'm not sure 130 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: that the Russian soldiers, the basic Russian soldiers, will shoot 131 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: so easily their cousins, that the the family cousins of Ukraine. 132 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 1: It would be a real mess. If the General in 133 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: chief of the Putin's Army give the order to shoot. 134 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: It will not be like Chicken. Yah, it will not, 135 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: which was a big crime. It will be a difficult story. 136 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: What do you think he wants? Does he want a 137 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: puppet government in Ukraine? Does he? I agree with the 138 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: Ukrainians are tough and strong, and they're proud of their country, 139 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,599 Speaker 1: and I don't want to give it up. But he 140 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: has had more or less favorable governments there is that 141 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: what he wants. He wants that first, Yes, a poppet 142 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: government as much as he can as he had with Yanukovic, 143 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: before Porshenko, and he wants to create a mess among us, 144 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: the biggest, the mess the best for him, divisions between 145 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: Germany and France, divisions between America and Europe, mess between 146 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: Baltic countries who are very hawkish and Hungary, who is 147 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: very sweet because Mr Abad has a good personal relationship 148 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: with Mr Putin, because he shares some parts of his ideology. Whatever. 149 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: But the aim for me, the target of Puttin is 150 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 1: to inflict us what he thinks we inflicted him at 151 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: the time of the collapse of Soviet Union. Mr Americans, 152 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: Mr French, Mr Europeans, you inflicted me a humiliation by 153 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: destroying my empire in I will inflict you the reverse 154 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: by destroying as much as I can your dear free world, 155 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: European continent. And so what this is the target? Revenge? 156 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: Revenge about don't forget you know that better than any one, 157 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: Mr President that for him, the collapse of Soviet Union 158 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: in the biggest catastrophe of the twentieth century, and he 159 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,599 Speaker 1: really wants to make a spay for that. This is 160 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: the target. According to me, of course, the truth is 161 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: quite a and that basically it brought it from the 162 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: inside out to Soviet Union and the rest of the 163 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: world just stayed strong and preferred freedom to domination. But 164 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: I remember when I became president, Russia was in terrible 165 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: trouble and they couldn't even afford to bring their troops 166 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: on from the Baltics. They had no place to house them, 167 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: they had no food to feed them, they had nothing. 168 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 1: And the first thing that I did as president was 169 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: to meet with President Elson in Canada and organize a 170 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 1: twenty four billion dollar relief operation for them, which was 171 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: real money back then. That was, you know, twenty nine 172 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: years ago, and they were able to bring their soldiers 173 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: home and to treat them with dignity. And I did 174 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: everything I could to help Yelson succeed, and even in 175 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: Bosnia we let them be part of the peacekeeping mission, 176 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: even though it was a difficult thing politically. They Yelson 177 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: trusted me and we worked together and he worked it out. 178 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: And I think what Putin thought was that because of 179 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: his energy resources, when he got rich again, he could 180 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: exercise more muscle, and that I always thought that the 181 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: great decision Russia had to make after the collapse of 182 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union was not how to get revenge, but 183 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: how to define greatness in the twenty first century, and 184 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: Putin has chosen, in effect, a nineteenth century Czarist model 185 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: of greatness. He can pray on the fact that his 186 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: country was invaded by Napoleon and Hitler, and there's still 187 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: a sense of distrust of the outsiders, and he can 188 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: use all these new levels the unconventional warfare, if you will, 189 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: their enormous talents and cyber technology and their ability to 190 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: so mischief all the way to the American election. And 191 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: that's how he defines greatness. He could have made a 192 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: very different decision. He could have decided to become the 193 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: in effect second Silicon Valley, the Internet capital of half 194 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: the world, and he decided not to. He decided the 195 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: ironed hand was better. But I think it was a mistake. 196 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: You are right, and here comes what we could call 197 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: the human factor. Putting is Putting. He's not a cynical man. 198 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: He believes. He has some beliefs. He has a doctrine. 199 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: For example, he believes in Eurasia Eurasia Razi. He believes 200 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: in an alternative pattern of society against democracy. He believes 201 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: in illiberal regimes. He hates what America or Europe embodies. 202 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: He has a real doctrine. I don't know if we 203 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: should qualify it a new fascism. I don't know if 204 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: it the revival of just offer Zarius to Russia. Maybe 205 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: it is that plus a bit of Stalinism plus a bit. 206 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: I don't know. But there is a doctrine, and this 207 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: doctrine is really opposite to ours. It is a real 208 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: opposition of visions of the world. And this makes so 209 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: crucial that we we stand by our worlds with the West, 210 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: stand by our values, defend them with wisdom, of course, 211 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: without aggressivity, without being hawkish. But if we don't stand 212 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: by our own values, we will be strongly defeated. Because 213 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: he has a double force of an army and of 214 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: a doctrine. That brings me to bay. Let's talk about 215 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: little bit. As you know well, Bosnia was the first 216 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: place where NATO approved out of area operations. The Germans 217 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: voted for it even before it was legal for them 218 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: to send any forces outside Germany, and um I was 219 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: trying from to get our allies involved because I didn't 220 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: think America could do this alone, because Bosnia had to 221 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: be a part of Europe. And what broke largely because 222 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: of France. I might add what broke the European paralysis 223 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: was Srebinitza. The slaughter and Strebitza led the French to 224 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: believe that their faith that they could somehow reason with 225 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: or do business with Milossovich and the Serbians was misplaced. 226 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: And so we were able and only with you know, 227 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: a few days, maybe four or five days of bombing, 228 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: to start the peace talks, and we were able to 229 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: stop the slaughter and to preserve a kind of rough 230 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: order which has existed to the present day. But we 231 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: did not have at the time of what we did, 232 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: and they know how the ability to fashion an agreement 233 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: which would prevent to Serve from vetoing the national government 234 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: of Bosnia from doing anything to make it a real 235 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: nation and to put it on the path to prosperity. 236 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: So the good news is we stopped the killing. The 237 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: bad news is, as long as the Republic of Serbsca, 238 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: which is part of Bosnia, is governed by someone who 239 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: in effect is an anti unity which pleases Putin and 240 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: no one else, we're stuck. What what should happen in Bosnia? 241 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: What's your take on this? I remember the night you 242 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: decided to launch the bombing on the Hills which were 243 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: bombing Sarajevo. I was with Ambassador Harrimana, General Wellesley Clark, 244 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: and Ambassador Old Brook. The three of them, me plus 245 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: the President is a bigovich in the dining room of 246 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: Ambassador Harriman. It was more than a relief. It was 247 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: a full joy. It was a blessing. I remember having 248 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: blessed you for having taking after two years this decision. 249 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: This day you made a lot for the Bostian people, 250 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: for the cause, the cause of the Boston people, and 251 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: for the cause of values and truth. It is a 252 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: date for my generation. This night is a real date. 253 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: Number one, number two. What is what is true is 254 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: that the data and agreements we're not good. He hesitated 255 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: till the last minute to sign or not. He was 256 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: he has a prospect. It was a visionary He knew 257 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: that disagreement will postpone the problems instead of solving them. Really, 258 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: and this is what we see today, the ditch, the 259 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: chief of the Republican subscript is again playing with fire. 260 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: What I believe, I told that to my President recently. 261 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: We are still in a quiet situation. The fire is 262 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: not yet there. We should intervene now, we should deal 263 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: a step ahead in the future entry of Bossia in 264 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: Europe in exchange of a remolding of the institution of 265 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: the two entities Croats and Muslim on one side, Orthodox 266 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: on the Serbian on the other one. We should not 267 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: let it as it is. I hope that your success 268 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: Hals in America in France will take this problem now 269 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: before it is too late, and before we have to 270 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: extinguish a real fire. It has to be done. If not, 271 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: the war could resume, could come back. I agree with that, 272 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: and and I was back there. I went back to 273 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: the twentieth anniversary of Svensen and it was very moving, 274 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 1: and the then president of Serbia came, and he was young, 275 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: like the then mayor of the community who was the 276 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: only survivor of the massacre, and ReBs in his family 277 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: and in his class, only male survivor in his high 278 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: school class twenty years earlier. And these two young men 279 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: offered us promise, but they took a totally different direction. 280 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: And I remember walking through the crowd that day. All 281 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: the older people were really glad to see me, and 282 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: they were grateful that I'd stopped to slaughter. All the 283 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: younger people were angry because they took it for granted 284 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: that they weren't going to be shot, but they had 285 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: no hope because nothing good was happening. And then the 286 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: Serbs went back to their hard line direction, and we're 287 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: paying for it now. It's something that has to be 288 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: watched and the United States should be supportive, but the 289 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: Europeans are gonna have to take a lot of initiative. 290 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: You're because they're part of Europe. If anybody had told 291 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: me when we did all this more than twenty years 292 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: ago that by the in now that Kosovo would have 293 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: a more enduring government and greater prospects at the future 294 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: than Bosnia, I wouldn't have believed it then too. And 295 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: they're in a precarious position geographically, of course, but it's 296 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: worth remembering that the aftermath of conflict will determine whether 297 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: we lead the seeds of another one or give people 298 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,239 Speaker 1: a chance to live a normal future. And I'm very 299 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: worried about it. And the further away you get from 300 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: the scene of a place like that, the more the 301 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: politicians can turn away from it. And you just hear 302 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: the barking dogs. And if you're an American politician today, 303 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: all the barking dogs are at home. I don't think 304 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: they're thinking about it very much, but it's a real problem. 305 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. I sense from your reading that 306 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: you have a great affinity for the non governmental organizations 307 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: that try to keep humanity alive and all these difficult circumstances. 308 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: And the first person who exposed me to the potential 309 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: power of NGOs in the United States and around the 310 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: world was Hillary because her first job out of law 311 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: school was working for what became the Children's Defense Fund, 312 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: and she began to and when she was in the 313 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: White House and she would take trips from me. She 314 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: would every time she went to a country, she would 315 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: meet with the main NGO leaders along with the government officials. 316 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: And she got me to do the same thing, which 317 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: often upset the leaders you know who saw NGOs as 318 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: a threat. But they're a threat by and large only 319 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: because they highlight forgotten people and the real condition of 320 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: human beings instead of the stated superficial positions of politicians. 321 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: So what you're feeling now about the NGO movement, I'm 322 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,239 Speaker 1: very worried about Afghanistan, as I'm sure you are. I'm 323 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: gonna stud you all right. The it is heartbreaking and 324 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: it is a shame the situation. It is heartbreaking because 325 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: in reality, in Afghanistan we did succeed. We did not fail. 326 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: We did succeed in which sense, under the umbrella of 327 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: American forces, women got liberated, dared to go in the 328 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: streets with a with a naked face. Under the umbrella 329 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: of American forces, a free press began to take birth, 330 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: and so many Geo Afghan ev and geos civil society 331 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: began to take shape also, So it is false to 332 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: say that we failed. You know, this is the motto 333 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: we no, we did not fail. Those who maintain, who 334 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: keep the candle lightened, are the angels, the humanitarian movements, 335 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: who at big risk, risk of their lives, working in 336 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: so dangerous situations, are keeping the hope alive. Thanks God, 337 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: we still have a few angels in Afghanistan trying to 338 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: do their work. Generally speaking, I share absolutely your point 339 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: of view. I am an old traveler now, like Hillary, 340 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: I went in so many places in my life. I 341 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: will tell you I understood very early that the true 342 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: ambassadors of France, maybe of America often not always, because 343 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: we have also some great ambassadors, but often the true 344 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: ambassadors were the angels. They are the ones who have 345 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: the best contact with population. They are the ones who 346 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: are the most closely embedded in the in the real 347 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: concrete situation. They have a lot of information about the situation. 348 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: When you want to know something today, when you arrive 349 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: in a in Burundi, or even in Mogadisho or in Afghanistan, 350 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: you have to go to the angel. They waive the 351 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: flag of America and of Europe. They have the datas 352 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: and they help. They are our true ambassadors, and they 353 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: are brave. They are exactly like the journalists. The reporters 354 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: there risk a lot by doing their job. So it 355 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: is the wealth of the angels. Maybe after the war 356 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: in Biafra in the sixties might be one of the 357 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: real progresses, one of the great inventions of the modern times. 358 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: One of the things that bothered me about the whole 359 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: thing is we never really explained to the American people 360 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: what was going on in Afghanistan. And there were many people, 361 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: including many who were upset about to withdrawal, who wanted 362 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: to end the conflict in I thought, we cannot make 363 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: over the whole country. And I think what we did 364 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: was good because, as you pointed out, we hadn't been 365 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: at war in Afghanistan in nearly a decade. So what 366 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: would you do now? What do you think should be 367 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: done now in Afghanistan? I think we should prevent the 368 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: ordinary people from dying by hunger. So help should be 369 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: provided through angels, through you and energy. Certainly not one 370 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: dollar directly in the pocket of Taliban's because they are 371 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: corrupted and they would steal it. Number one, we should 372 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: help people not to die. Number two, we should help 373 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: the women, the movements of women in Counda Heart, in 374 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: Mazari Sharief, in other cities who refuse the iron rule 375 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: of Taliban's. We have a lot of ways to help them, 376 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: concrete and moral. We knew how to do that. We 377 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: Americans and Europeans in the time of the Cold War, 378 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: at the time of the Soviet Union. We knew without 379 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: inflaming the whole world, how to encourage, how to help, 380 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: how to do underground support. This is what we have 381 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: to do with the people, especially the brave ladies who 382 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: are opening the rule of Taliban's a. Number three, there 383 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: is a man. I know him well. I knew the 384 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: father well, and I know the son ratherwell. I know 385 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: him since he's a little boy. Now he's a grown 386 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: up man Ahmad Massoud Ahmad Masud, who is the leader 387 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: of the resistance in Panshir, which is the only province 388 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: who refused to submit to Taliban's I saw him among 389 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: his commanders in Panshir. I filled him in a moving 390 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: gathering where we had the old commanders of the Father Amachamasud, 391 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: the legendary father, and the young commanders of the Sun together, 392 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: you know, sort of amalgam mixing of the old commanders 393 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: and the young. And I saw young Basswood addressing this 394 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: bunch of commanders. He was great, he was charismatic, He 395 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: was respected by those proud horseman cavalier. As Joseph Kessel said, 396 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: so this man has to be supported by many means. 397 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: I cannot enter in details. I'm not an expert, but 398 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: he has to be supported. He is at this moment, 399 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: that's my opinion, the only asset which not only the West, 400 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: which the free people of Afghanistan have on the ground, 401 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: The free people of Afghanistan, the women who want to 402 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: remain free, the journalists who want to continue to do 403 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: their job, they have one asset. I'm admussment. We still 404 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: can in spite of our retreat. We still can try 405 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: to repair which is reparable by helping this man. His 406 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: father's death was a tragedy. I know, I know, I know. 407 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: I knew him well. He came in Paris. I made him. 408 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: I organized his visit in Paris in May two thousand one, 409 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: a few weeks before his death, and a few weeks 410 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: before September eleven. He was so melancholic, he was so sad. 411 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: He had with him some informations which he wanted to 412 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: give to French government. He was not properly received, He 413 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: was not properly hosted by the authorities of my country. 414 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: Because there was a black male of the Talibans in 415 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: Kabul saying, if you receive Massoud, there will be retaliation 416 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: on the ground against the angel. I think again it 417 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: was the bluff. But let's forget. So I have so 418 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: sad souvenirs of the of the sadness, of the melancholy 419 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: of Massoud. The last time I saw him in in 420 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: in Paris, it was in April. He was a great man. Yeah, 421 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: he was a great fighter. He was a poet. He 422 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: was an intellectual. He loved books. He had his personal 423 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: library following him from battlefield to battlefield. He was one 424 00:33:49,720 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: of those men who wage war without liking it. More 425 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: after this, before we close, let's uh, I think our 426 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: listeners would be interested to know about your very first 427 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: endeavor in this area. So tell us how you wound 428 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: up as a young man going to Bangladesh, which at 429 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: the time was East Pakistan, and how did it become 430 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: Bangladesh and what was your roller. My role was very small, 431 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: but my and divor and my enthusiasm was great. There 432 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: was a slaughter in Bangladesh, mass crimes. Even today we 433 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: don't know if the Pakistania Army killed five one million, 434 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: two million, maybe three, maybe four, We don't even know. 435 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: And Andre Malra made a call on French Raggio. He 436 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: was very old, he was very nervous. He was a 437 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: real old man, and he said, I make an appeal. 438 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: I make a call to the constitution of an international brigade, 439 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: as I did in Spain. He did that in Spain 440 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: in nine six. He was at the head. He was 441 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: the commander, the coronel of a fleet of planes and 442 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: listed in the International Brigades, doing a real good job 443 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 1: in Spain. So at this moment he's seventy, but seventy 444 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: of this time, not like us. It was a real seventy. 445 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: He was really tired, and he launched his appeal. I 446 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 1: heard that. I thought that it was so moving, so 447 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: beautiful and so true. That's what did I do. I 448 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: took my phone. I called the secretary of the assistant 449 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: of I said, I am in, please take me. So 450 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: my name was in the least I was at all 451 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: the and I went the Reality International Brigade never is 452 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: Andrew was so tired that he did not come, Thanks God, 453 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: he came after the war. But I was there. So 454 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: being there, what can I do? I embedded myself in 455 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: a group of freedom fighters Mukti Bahini. I entered into 456 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: Da Car and I stayed there for a few months 457 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: at the side of the first President of Bangladesh Check Mujiba. 458 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: But this is important because it is the first time 459 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: I was twenty one or twenty two, I understood for 460 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: the first time that the real affair of our generation, 461 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: the real the real tragedy, the real fight will be 462 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:02,720 Speaker 1: the opposition of the radical Islam and the enlightened Islam. 463 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: Radical Islam was embodied by the Pakistani army. You know, Pakistan, 464 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: the country of the pure and Mujibu Ahman President of 465 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: Bangladesh was an enlightened Muslim. He was Muslim, pious, worshiping 466 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: and so on. But Democrats, friend to human rights, friend 467 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: to the Western world, deciding to support the women who 468 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: had been raped during the war and to name them Birangona, 469 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: which meant he ruins of the nation. He was a 470 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: very open minded man. I was twenty. I understood that 471 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: this radical Islam versus unlighted Islam might be the great 472 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: affair of my life and of our generation. And he 473 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: turned out to be right. And Uh, we can end 474 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: on an upbeat note a little bit. Arguably the two 475 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: most successful NGOs in the developing world took birth in Bangladesh. 476 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,839 Speaker 1: Father Lavin, who sadly died just a couple of years ago. 477 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: It was a good friend of mine founded Brack and 478 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: Muhammad Yunis founded the Grameen Bank, and Uh when he 479 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: got the Nobel Prize for Economics. I think it's important 480 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: to know that even though Bangladesh still has deeply divided politics, 481 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: there were three years in the early part of this 482 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: century when they in effect had no government. It was 483 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: totally paralyzed, and the economy still grew with no government 484 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: at six percent a year because of the micro credit 485 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: work of Brack and Gramen and others. So this work 486 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: is worth doing. And I'm so glad that you've pointed 487 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: out that you if you go in this direction that 488 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: you've lived your life, you can't keep score by whether 489 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: you win a hundred percent of the time and whether 490 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: everything you live and dream can be realized more or 491 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: less immediately. Well, first of all, I want to thank 492 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: you for your life and thank you for being a 493 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: public intellectual, which is another way of saying someone who 494 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: is an active citizen. We didn't get into the number 495 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: of times when you could have been killed yourself. You 496 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: were repeatedly in danger because you went to where people 497 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: were hurting. And I think the whole world owes you 498 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 1: are dead of gratitude, and I hope that someday. I 499 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: know you said you didn't want it, but I would 500 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: like it if France would acknowledge what you have done 501 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: as a Frenchman to make the world a better place. 502 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: And I'm glad you've got your energy and I hope 503 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 1: you never lose it. I remember somebody asked me once 504 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,320 Speaker 1: why I went to law school, and I said, I 505 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: don't want to practice law, but I don't ever want 506 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: to be forced to retire. I want to die with 507 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: my boots on. I think that you have lived and 508 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 1: I hope we'll live decades more with your boots on. 509 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: And we're all very grateful to you. Thank you, same 510 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,839 Speaker 1: for you and Mr President boots On, boots on VC 511 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: the good and boots on for you and for me, 512 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: bless you, Thank you. Why am I telling you? This 513 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: is a production of our Heart Radio, the Clinton Foundation 514 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: and at Will Medium. Our executive producers are Craig Menascian 515 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 1: and Will Monadi. Our production team includes Jamison Katsufas, Tom Galton, 516 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: Sara Horowitz, and Jake Young, with production support from Liz 517 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: Raftree and Josh Farnham. Original music by What White. Special 518 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: thanks to John Sykes, John Davidson on hell Orina, Corey Ganstley, 519 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: Kevin Thuram, Oscar Flores, and all our dedicated staff and 520 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: partners at the Clinton Foundation. Hi, I'm Dr Mike Kimpill, 521 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: Director of the Presidential Leadership scholars Program, a one of 522 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: a kind partnership between the presidential centers of Bill Clinton, 523 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: George W. Bush, George H. W. Bush, and Lyndon Baines Johnson. 524 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: President Clinton often says that the key to great leadership 525 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: is in finding our common humanity, something that's needed now 526 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 1: more than ever. That's why each year we bring together 527 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,320 Speaker 1: a dramatically diverse group of leaders, from doctors to teachers, 528 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: elected officials to scientists, active military and veterans, all of 529 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: whom have a passion for making the world a better place. 530 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: We create a culture of collaboration that transcends partisan divides 531 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,240 Speaker 1: and ideological differences in service of a greater good. Today, 532 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: presidential Leadership scholars across the country are working together and 533 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: actively applying the lessons learned in our program to help 534 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,240 Speaker 1: tackle today's most pressing challenges. You can learn more about 535 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: this work and see how you can get involved by 536 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: visiting www dot Clinton Foundation dot org. Slash podcast