WEBVTT - The A.I. Populist 0:00:06.030 --> 0:00:08.910 With the midterm elections coming up, obviously AI is an 0:00:08.930 --> 0:00:12.230 issue that's getting a ton of attention from candidates. And really, 0:00:12.289 --> 0:00:15.600 it's not one issue. AI impacts so many parts of 0:00:15.660 --> 0:00:18.540 our society and lives. There's talk about the impact of 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.619 data centers being built all over the country, surveillance and 0:00:21.660 --> 0:00:25.800 national security, fears about AI taking human jobs, and worse. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:28.290 We've reported about a lot of these things here on 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.020 the show. Deep fakes used to harass people, flock cameras 0:00:32.060 --> 0:00:34.320 showing up all over the place and training AI models, 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.600 the creation of fake online newsrooms. There are so many 0:00:38.860 --> 0:00:43.290 thorny questions about this technology. But what do politicians intend 0:00:43.330 --> 0:00:46.629 to do about it? Today, I wanted to share with 0:00:46.650 --> 0:00:49.010 you an interview with one member of Congress who's been 0:00:49.070 --> 0:00:52.910 vocal about this, Greg Kazar from Texas. It's an interview 0:00:52.950 --> 0:00:56.090 from Slate's podcast, What Next?, where Kazar talks about his 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.060 own concerns about AI technology. and why he sees the 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.240 anger that people feel about it as an opportunity for 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.450 his party, the Democrats, to position themselves as the ones 0:01:05.550 --> 0:01:08.310 confronting these issues head on, though he does not believe 0:01:08.610 --> 0:01:11.490 Democrats have seized that opportunity yet. I thought it was 0:01:11.510 --> 0:01:13.750 really helpful to hear Kazar lay out his case and 0:01:13.790 --> 0:01:16.160 his critiques of his own party, including the way he 0:01:16.180 --> 0:01:20.179 sees money influencing their action or inaction on this issue. 0:01:21.020 --> 0:01:23.260 Here's Lizio Leary from Slate's What Next? 0:01:27.250 --> 0:01:31.630 Congressman Greg Kassar has pretty strong feelings about the very rich. 0:01:32.310 --> 0:01:36.510 Well, look, people all over the country are rightly upset 0:01:37.170 --> 0:01:39.970 that billionaires are screwing everybody over. 0:01:40.490 --> 0:01:42.670 And the place that so much of his anger is 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.520 directed is at the people building artificial intelligence. 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.040 AI is going to make it so that it's oligarchy 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.780 on steroids. They're going to try to turn a few 0:01:54.860 --> 0:01:59.860 billionaires into trillionaires, while trying to push for mass unemployment, 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:05.100 mass surveillance, and leaving us vulnerable to mass security risks. 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.320 Kassar is in an interesting spot in his party. He's 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:13.320 a lefty Democrat from Texas, chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, 0:02:13.930 --> 0:02:16.650 and someone who has a very pointed message for his 0:02:16.710 --> 0:02:21.970 colleagues who want to win in the midterms and in 2028. 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:29.040 A coalition of people all across the country, coast to coast, 0:02:29.380 --> 0:02:33.950 who are deeply concerned about AI making your life worse off. 0:02:34.610 --> 0:02:37.590 But we can't afford, as Democrats, to be squishy on 0:02:37.610 --> 0:02:40.270 the issue. We can't afford to be paralyzed. We can't 0:02:40.330 --> 0:02:42.190 afford to say, well, that's some new tech that we 0:02:42.230 --> 0:02:45.690 don't fully understand. We should clearly be on the side 0:02:46.110 --> 0:02:49.220 of everyday people who are concerned, yes, about data centers, 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:52.120 but also concerned about their jobs, concerned about their safety, 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.960 concerned about their freedoms. be on the side of people, 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.340 and be willing to stand up against the big money 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.960 in politics that's being used by these AI billionaires to 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.200 try to intimidate Democrats out of taking a really strong 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:06.120 position on these issues. 0:03:07.980 --> 0:03:11.660 Today on the show, Congressman Kassar makes the case against 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:15.200 the current state of AI and makes the case for 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:19.320 his Democratic colleagues to follow. I'm Lizzie O'Leary, in for 0:03:19.340 --> 0:03:20.860 Mary Harris, and you're listening. 0:03:20.650 --> 0:03:21.990 To What Next? Stick around. 0:03:27.110 --> 0:03:29.570 So let me take you to the word squishy and 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.600 run with that a second. You have criticized Democratic leadership here. 0:03:32.620 --> 0:03:37.380 Hakeem Jeffries has convened, I believe, a three-member commission to 0:03:37.460 --> 0:03:41.160 introduce a framework for artificial intelligence, but none of that 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:42.700 would happen until after the midterms. 0:03:43.500 --> 0:03:44.640 Is that your definition of squishy? 0:03:45.300 --> 0:03:48.490 My definition of squishy is where Democrats have landed on 0:03:48.570 --> 0:03:52.300 issues like cryptocurrency. Right now, you have crypto billionaires. 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:53.680 Getting a lot of money from Fairshake. 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.300 Yeah, exactly. Crypto billionaires basically have spent massive amounts of 0:03:58.420 --> 0:04:02.700 money in Democratic primaries and Democratic elections to basically spook 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:07.900 Democrats away from taking a really hard line position against 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:12.040 the massive amounts of money laundering and fraud and Ponzi 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.540 schemes we see in some big corners of the crypto industry. 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.610 But you basically have Democrats kind of in all sorts 0:04:18.630 --> 0:04:21.969 of positions on the issue. even if Democrats are generally 0:04:22.570 --> 0:04:24.610 better on it than the Republicans who are all lined 0:04:24.650 --> 0:04:28.099 up behind crypto, it's just not clean enough for the 0:04:28.140 --> 0:04:31.960 American people to clearly know, hey, if you're a crypto billionaire, 0:04:32.260 --> 0:04:35.159 you're with the Republicans. But if you're an everyday person 0:04:35.180 --> 0:04:37.480 that might get screwed over by a crypto scheme, you're 0:04:37.500 --> 0:04:40.860 with the Democrats. We haven't drawn that clean of a line. 0:04:41.300 --> 0:04:43.840 And it's because, as you pointed out, they have this 0:04:43.860 --> 0:04:45.140 thing called the fair shake pact. 0:04:45.460 --> 0:04:47.260 It's a very big pact. They're putting a lot of 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:48.219 money into elections. 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.880 Yeah, so people like Sherrod Brown, a senator from Ohio, 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.480 who even when Trump would overwhelmingly win Ohio, still would 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:00.580 get reelected. Basically, the deciding factor that got Sherrod out 0:05:00.750 --> 0:05:04.229 of the Senate was that this crypto PAC spent, God, 0:05:04.290 --> 0:05:06.109 I don't know, it was like $ 30 or $ 40 million, 0:05:06.210 --> 0:05:09.070 obscene amounts of money, to get him out of the race. 0:05:09.670 --> 0:05:13.160 And yes, that was about... taking out Sherrod Brown, who 0:05:13.460 --> 0:05:16.740 has been really tough on regulating big banks and crypto. 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:19.060 But it was also trying to send a message to 0:05:19.100 --> 0:05:21.490 Democrats to kind of be squishy on the issue, to 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:22.589 avoid talking about it. 0:05:23.070 --> 0:05:24.909 Well, you look at leading the future, right? That's one 0:05:24.930 --> 0:05:28.050 of the very big ones. They have supported some Democrats, 0:05:28.130 --> 0:05:29.730 Melissa Bean, Jesse Jackson Jr. 0:05:29.750 --> 0:05:36.040 How much of the hesitation around criticizing AI is about 0:05:36.220 --> 0:05:38.600 not wanting to cut off potential money sources? 0:05:39.250 --> 0:05:41.910 Look, I know for a fact, and there's been a 0:05:41.970 --> 0:05:45.150 lot of independent reporting on this, that there are consultants 0:05:45.210 --> 0:05:48.990 in Washington, D.C. telling their Democratic clients, don't talk about 0:05:49.050 --> 0:05:52.860 AI because you don't want to attract a big money 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.700 dump against you or for your opponent. And so candidates 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:58.640 are being told just not to talk about it, to 0:05:58.660 --> 0:06:02.380 pretend it's not happening. And that would be devastating for 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:06.719 the American people and ultimately for Democratic politics. Because look, 0:06:07.260 --> 0:06:10.150 I want Democrats to be successful. And the best way 0:06:10.170 --> 0:06:12.590 for us to be successful is to be with the people, 0:06:13.170 --> 0:06:16.170 even if that means that we're not with those big 0:06:16.290 --> 0:06:20.420 money interests. So Greg Brockman, who's one of the big 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.719 open AI guys, has dumped huge amounts of money into 0:06:24.820 --> 0:06:28.630 leading the future. He is trying to make sure that 0:06:28.670 --> 0:06:32.289 Trump gets reelected, keeps his majorities, and make sure the 0:06:32.350 --> 0:06:36.960 Democrats don't take a strong stance against mass AI unemployment 0:06:37.020 --> 0:06:41.119 or mass AI surveillance. They're basically going for free reign, 0:06:41.580 --> 0:06:44.760 no regulation on AI. In fact, the main thing they've 0:06:44.779 --> 0:06:48.279 been pushing in Congress is to get rid of the 0:06:48.339 --> 0:06:51.960 existing small number of laws in states. So they're not 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:54.480 trying to pass regulation. In fact, they're trying to get 0:06:54.580 --> 0:06:58.230 rid of even rules that an individual state like New 0:06:58.290 --> 0:07:02.909 York or Montana might pass. So we basically have the 0:07:02.970 --> 0:07:07.190 Trump administration totally captured by these AI billionaires. And then 0:07:07.230 --> 0:07:10.810 that same AI money trying to maybe not fully capture 0:07:10.830 --> 0:07:14.370 the Democratic Party, but make the Democratic Party paralyzed enough 0:07:14.790 --> 0:07:18.060 or squishy enough that we don't really fight back. And 0:07:18.100 --> 0:07:20.420 that would be a huge mistake. What I'm working on 0:07:20.580 --> 0:07:24.420 is making sure the Democratic Party has a clear platform. No, 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:28.620 we will not allow mass AI unemployment. We should tax 0:07:29.060 --> 0:07:32.130 AI to make sure unemployment doesn't rise. No, we should 0:07:32.170 --> 0:07:36.510 not allow mass surveillance by AI. The government or corporations 0:07:36.850 --> 0:07:38.890 should not be able to surveil you to jack up 0:07:38.930 --> 0:07:42.530 your prices or track you like ICE is doing. And 0:07:42.570 --> 0:07:47.310 then third, we cannot allow for massive AI safety risks. 0:07:47.850 --> 0:07:51.140 And we've seen right now how you have these AI 0:07:51.220 --> 0:07:55.780 models that are reportedly breaking out of their security infrastructure, 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.820 hacking onto the internet that they're not allowed to hack into, 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.610 and then hacking into other companies, which is why I 0:08:01.690 --> 0:08:05.550 think that we need real strong safety rules, including a 0:08:05.630 --> 0:08:09.190 ban on AI superintelligence. These are the kinds of things 0:08:09.230 --> 0:08:14.760 that 80% of Americans support, Democratic, Independent, Republican, whatever, because 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:16.980 we think that we should get to run our lives, 0:08:17.380 --> 0:08:18.940 not just a couple of AI billionaires. 0:08:20.250 --> 0:08:22.890 I think you have, at least I've seen, kind of 0:08:22.930 --> 0:08:25.670 some confusion in the Democratic Party about how to message 0:08:25.790 --> 0:08:29.310 around AI. I have seen some members go with this 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.840 sort of like, AI is raising the cost of everything. 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:33.420 This is a cost of living question. 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.160 You seem to go for a much more direct kind 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.620 of anti-billionaire stance. 0:08:41.340 --> 0:08:42.400 What do you think is the right way to go? 0:08:44.100 --> 0:08:47.100 Look, I think that we're living through an era of 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:51.590 unprecedented change. corruption and where people are feeling that they 0:08:51.620 --> 0:08:55.970 don't have control over their future anymore. And that links 0:08:56.450 --> 0:08:58.890 all of these different issues together. 0:08:59.270 --> 0:09:01.250 So it's not just about somebody's electricity bill? 0:09:02.490 --> 0:09:05.500 Well, you've got these, a few folks who want to 0:09:05.550 --> 0:09:08.380 literally become trillionaires and they don't care if they jack 0:09:08.420 --> 0:09:10.880 up your electricity bill. They don't care if they poison 0:09:10.900 --> 0:09:13.280 your water. They don't care if they are addicting your 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.110 kids to their phones. They don't care if if they 0:09:17.150 --> 0:09:20.250 potentially create a mass national security risk. We just read 0:09:20.290 --> 0:09:22.890 the other day that you have some scientists creating new 0:09:23.010 --> 0:09:26.670 viruses using AI. Look, here in Austin, you got to 0:09:26.690 --> 0:09:29.030 get a license before you open a damn food truck. 0:09:29.490 --> 0:09:32.110 But now people can use AI and create a virus. 0:09:32.570 --> 0:09:36.270 So they don't care about your safety, your freedom, your kids. 0:09:36.410 --> 0:09:39.940 They just care about making money. And people are really 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.380 upset about that. And that links all of this together. 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.510 And so I just don't think it's that complicated. We 0:09:46.550 --> 0:09:50.160 should be very clear that positive uses of AI, that 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.660 sounds good. Yeah, let's work on curing cancer. Let's work 0:09:52.700 --> 0:09:54.960 on the root causes of dementia or the climate crisis. 0:09:55.590 --> 0:09:59.250 But all this other stuff, people are really upset about. 0:09:59.590 --> 0:10:02.420 And we should just... say no. We should say no 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.760 to either your electric bill going up or your kid's 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.959 school getting taken over by AI robot teachers. This is 0:10:09.020 --> 0:10:11.920 stuff that no matter which part of Texas I'm in, 0:10:12.140 --> 0:10:15.380 people are against. So let's be with the people and 0:10:15.450 --> 0:10:18.240 against the billionaires who just want to profit off of you. 0:10:18.710 --> 0:10:21.570 All right, so let's talk about AI populism, right? 0:10:21.650 --> 0:10:23.800 Clearly, that is one of the ways you describe yourself, 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:28.360 but it also exists on the right. I'm thinking about 0:10:28.380 --> 0:10:32.210 the anti-AI commentator Joe Allen, who is a regular on 0:10:32.260 --> 0:10:35.410 Steve Bannon's podcast. It is clear to me that there 0:10:35.470 --> 0:10:39.550 is a huge anti-AI, and in many cases anti-data center, 0:10:40.490 --> 0:10:46.880 kind of groundswell issue. Are you comfortable aligning with these guys? Like, 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.260 is this a strange bedfellows make for good politics? 0:10:49.340 --> 0:10:50.960 Are you like, I don't know. 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:55.240 Look, this isn't a bedfellows with Steve Bannon moment. It's 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.360 that Steve Bannon. Well, no, no. Cause I know, because look, 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.179 I think Steve Bannon knows what it takes to try 0:11:02.220 --> 0:11:05.620 to win over voters and win elections, right? Steve Bannon 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:10.140 rightly pointed out that a continued Mitt Romney politics in 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.820 the Republican party was eventually going nowhere. And so he 0:11:13.860 --> 0:11:16.960 wanted to go and take working class voters away from 0:11:16.980 --> 0:11:23.439 the Democratic Party. And the terrible result has been their 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.250 success at taking some of the working class base away 0:11:26.660 --> 0:11:29.270 that has built the Democratic Party from the ground up 0:11:29.690 --> 0:11:30.870 since the Great Depression. 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.260 But so then what do you do with like, you know, 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.860 an X post from a Christian nationalist account that says 0:11:38.100 --> 0:11:40.059 only you can prevent data centers? 0:11:40.100 --> 0:11:42.500 Like, clearly you agree with that message. 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:49.260 Well, yeah, I mean, I don't go around retweeting, you know, psychopaths. 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:54.179 But let's be clear. Democrats need to stand with the 0:11:54.230 --> 0:11:58.550 vast majority of voters. We shouldn't leave an open lane. 0:11:59.170 --> 0:12:02.309 for a Tucker Carlson to go and run for president 0:12:02.670 --> 0:12:04.630 and try to capture a lot of voters who are 0:12:04.650 --> 0:12:07.610 upset about what's going on in the world. We should 0:12:07.650 --> 0:12:10.990 be talking to voters who are deeply upset that a 0:12:11.010 --> 0:12:14.069 data center is jacking up their electric bills and making 0:12:14.130 --> 0:12:17.900 their city council sign non-disclosure agreements. We should go tell 0:12:17.940 --> 0:12:21.080 those voters, no, you should have control of your life. 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.939 We want you to be able to still have a job. 0:12:23.980 --> 0:12:27.160 We want your kids to have a better future. And 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:32.250 we don't think that a few corporations becoming, you know, 0:12:32.590 --> 0:12:35.910 infinitely big and having infinite amounts of money is worth 0:12:35.950 --> 0:12:39.170 the trade-off here. And so I think we should be 0:12:39.190 --> 0:12:43.830 a real AI populist speaking to the people. That's what, look, 0:12:43.910 --> 0:12:47.170 I'm a Democrat. And when people ask, what's the Democratic 0:12:47.210 --> 0:12:50.150 Party's really stand for? Why are you a Democrat? I 0:12:50.170 --> 0:12:53.819 say I'm proudly an FDR Democrat, an LBJ Democrat who 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.199 beat back the Great Depression, built the New Deal, passed 0:12:57.260 --> 0:13:01.060 Medicare and Medicaid and Head Start, took on the robber 0:13:01.100 --> 0:13:04.740 barons in their day and built the middle class. We 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.679 should be that kind of populist party in this moment. 0:13:08.300 --> 0:13:11.580 And the robber barons of the 1920s, yeah, they were 0:13:11.620 --> 0:13:15.500 the railroad guys. But now you have the AI guys who, 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.640 similar to the robber barons, want no regulations, want no 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.580 check on their power. And we should stand with working 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.480 people and with unions and with neighborhood folks that, just 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.380 like FDR built the Democratic Party out of populism as 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.360 we headed out of the Gilded Age, we need, again, 0:13:32.540 --> 0:13:35.440 to build a populist brand for the Democratic Party that 0:13:35.500 --> 0:13:38.880 invites people in, including voters who chose to vote for 0:13:38.900 --> 0:13:41.320 Donald Trump. but who now have seen how Donald Trump 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:43.760 is a corrupt liar, we should invite them back in 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.699 by standing against those folks that are screwing them over. 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:53.110 When we come back, why Congressman Kassar does not support 0:13:53.130 --> 0:14:04.439 a data center moratorium. So let's talk about the pieces 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:09.770 of legislation that you've introduced. You've got one about protecting 0:14:09.990 --> 0:14:11.610 rate inflation in consumer energy. 0:14:11.790 --> 0:14:13.550 Another is a data center transparency act. 0:14:13.590 --> 0:14:16.980 And then you also propose legislation that would tax AI 0:14:17.130 --> 0:14:21.000 token usage, token usage and AI models. The revenue would 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:26.740 go toward job creation. It's a lot of plans, very 0:14:26.780 --> 0:14:30.960 hard to get anything through Congress these days. If you 0:14:31.100 --> 0:14:33.340 had to throw all your weight behind one, which is it? 0:14:34.860 --> 0:14:37.500 Well, what I'm throwing my weight behind is having the 0:14:37.540 --> 0:14:41.020 Democratic Party have a plan and be willing to take 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.940 on all of these challenges that AI is throwing our way. 0:14:45.460 --> 0:14:49.360 Because look, Lizzie, four years ago, Chad GPT hadn't even 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.530 been released. We can't wait four years to see where 0:14:53.570 --> 0:14:56.400 this takes us. So we need to start having plans now. 0:14:56.990 --> 0:14:59.270 right now. That's where I'm throwing my weight behind, is 0:14:59.290 --> 0:15:03.130 to say the Democratic Party needs to not just be incremental, 0:15:03.190 --> 0:15:05.990 do little tinkers here and there, but take on all 0:15:06.010 --> 0:15:06.770 of the major issues. 0:15:07.190 --> 0:15:09.820 But you don't support a data center construction moratorium. 0:15:10.460 --> 0:15:15.340 Look, I think that people are rightly pissed that the 0:15:15.380 --> 0:15:18.300 vast majority of these data centers are jacking up your 0:15:18.340 --> 0:15:22.450 electric bill or poisoning your water or aren't actually helping 0:15:22.500 --> 0:15:24.430 the local community. I don't think those should be billed. 0:15:25.070 --> 0:15:27.609 I think that what AOC and Bernie are out there 0:15:27.650 --> 0:15:31.230 saying is that we should actually have rules in place 0:15:31.730 --> 0:15:34.170 before we build those data centers. And I think they're right. 0:15:35.170 --> 0:15:37.870 But what I am really trying to also focus people 0:15:37.950 --> 0:15:42.630 on is that the AI that these data centers are powering, 0:15:42.910 --> 0:15:45.530 many of the data centers that we already have, also 0:15:45.620 --> 0:15:49.100 has no regulation. And we need to really also focus 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.900 on the safety rules that we need for our jobs 0:15:52.940 --> 0:15:57.550 and our freedom from any data center that already currently exists. 0:15:58.090 --> 0:16:00.750 Because right now, people are rightly pissed about the data centers. 0:16:01.250 --> 0:16:05.470 But if AI starts causing mass unemployment, man, are we 0:16:05.510 --> 0:16:07.830 going to have a real problem on our hands? And 0:16:07.870 --> 0:16:12.350 so that's why I prioritize, yes, saying these data centers 0:16:12.370 --> 0:16:15.630 should cover their own electric costs. Yes, these data centers. 0:16:15.580 --> 0:16:17.080 Should only- But not they shouldn't exist. 0:16:18.210 --> 0:16:20.450 Yeah, and I don't think Bernie and Alexandria are even 0:16:20.510 --> 0:16:23.710 saying that data centers shouldn't exist. They're saying we shouldn't 0:16:23.730 --> 0:16:26.490 be building data centers that make your life worse. And 0:16:26.530 --> 0:16:30.590 that's where I agree 100%. And what I think we 0:16:30.610 --> 0:16:34.050 should also be focused on is that if these data 0:16:34.090 --> 0:16:38.830 centers continue to power AI that has no regulation, then 0:16:38.890 --> 0:16:43.480 the national security risks are massive. The risks to our 0:16:43.740 --> 0:16:46.560 employment base are massive. So yes, I think we need 0:16:46.580 --> 0:16:49.690 to pass my bill or a bill like it, the 0:16:49.890 --> 0:16:54.310 AI Work Protection Act, which would make sure that AI 0:16:54.410 --> 0:16:57.450 pays a tax so that you're no longer getting a 0:16:57.490 --> 0:17:00.690 tax break for automating jobs. That's the status quo. It's nuts. 0:17:01.450 --> 0:17:04.969 And instead... If the unemployment rate goes up because of AI, 0:17:05.369 --> 0:17:08.050 that tax would rapidly escalate and make sure that the 0:17:08.090 --> 0:17:12.109 unemployment rate comes right back down. We create jobs and 0:17:12.130 --> 0:17:13.710 we make sure that people that are getting rid of 0:17:13.770 --> 0:17:16.730 our jobs have to pay for it. I also think 0:17:17.090 --> 0:17:20.859 that we need strong rules against AI mass surveillance. 0:17:21.660 --> 0:17:22.580 Like a flock camera? 0:17:23.300 --> 0:17:25.760 Yeah, the way that they can use flock cameras all 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.459 over the country right now to know exactly where you are, 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.020 exactly where you're headed. And on top of the cameras, 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.330 the way they can track you using your phone is 0:17:36.460 --> 0:17:39.129 really terrifying. So I was just mentioning, I had a 0:17:39.170 --> 0:17:42.830 presentation the other day where you could literally ask AI 0:17:43.390 --> 0:17:48.369 with a pretty cheap subscription to track employees of a 0:17:48.410 --> 0:17:52.360 gun store or an abortion clinic and tell you where 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.800 they drove from, what time they got to work, what 0:17:54.859 --> 0:17:59.300 customers came in and came out. That's already possible just 0:17:59.460 --> 0:18:02.639 on a subscription a civilian can get. Imagine what the 0:18:02.780 --> 0:18:06.020 FBI can do. Imagine what ICE can do. And so 0:18:06.060 --> 0:18:10.350 we need really strong protections to say, look, the Fourth 0:18:10.380 --> 0:18:14.190 Amendment to the Constitution applies here. You cannot have AI 0:18:14.430 --> 0:18:18.170 searching and seizing and following you every step of your 0:18:18.190 --> 0:18:20.770 day and of your life. And then we have the 0:18:20.810 --> 0:18:25.369 national security risks of totally unregulated AI. And I am 0:18:25.450 --> 0:18:30.219 advocating for a ban on artificial superintelligence. That is the 0:18:30.270 --> 0:18:33.489 kind of AI that could say, no, I won't turn off. 0:18:33.869 --> 0:18:37.270 That could refuse orders to, if humans tried to flip 0:18:37.330 --> 0:18:39.129 a kill switch, to turn off an AI out of 0:18:39.170 --> 0:18:42.550 control that actually could outsmart that. AI that would be 0:18:42.590 --> 0:18:47.010 better at humans than at most tasks and could, in 0:18:47.190 --> 0:18:52.190 either the hands of the wrong person, enable things like bioterrorism, 0:18:52.710 --> 0:18:57.270 major national security incidents, or actually not just in the 0:18:57.310 --> 0:18:59.449 hands of the wrong person, could actually get out of 0:18:59.770 --> 0:19:03.750 control of people entirely and do things on its own. 0:19:04.270 --> 0:19:08.240 And so we also need to get together, ban that 0:19:08.380 --> 0:19:12.359 as a country, and also have some aggressive diplomacy with 0:19:12.420 --> 0:19:15.379 other nations, including China, for us to have treaties to 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:20.510 ban this as well. Because just like nuclear war, and 0:19:20.550 --> 0:19:23.910 you have these nuclear nonproliferation agreements, I think you also 0:19:23.970 --> 0:19:26.770 need treaties around the world with other nations to say 0:19:26.810 --> 0:19:30.890 we cannot have artificial superintelligence because it would be damaging 0:19:30.930 --> 0:19:32.510 to the national security of everybody. 0:19:33.490 --> 0:19:36.990 Let me ask you one question about the way AI 0:19:37.050 --> 0:19:39.790 legislation has been kind of talked about in Congress. Like 0:19:40.070 --> 0:19:42.590 really some of the only movement we have seen is 0:19:42.770 --> 0:19:46.970 about whether or not there should be a federal moratorium 0:19:47.250 --> 0:19:52.040 on making AI laws that basically stops the states from 0:19:52.580 --> 0:19:56.060 making their own AI-related laws. I wonder where you think 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.540 the right balance of power is between federal legislation and 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:05.560 state legislation, and whether you think that there is a 0:20:05.619 --> 0:20:10.320 place for states to be making their own aggressive AI laws, 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.280 you know, even though you sit in the federal government. 0:20:14.310 --> 0:20:18.129 It would be really interesting to have the theoretical discussion 0:20:18.210 --> 0:20:20.970 on federalism, which laws should be federal, which laws should 0:20:21.010 --> 0:20:23.230 be state. But I want to peel the curtain back 0:20:23.270 --> 0:20:23.580 a little bit. 0:20:23.590 --> 0:20:25.370 You're rejecting the premise of my question. 0:20:25.510 --> 0:20:27.590 I'm not rejecting the premise of your question. I'm just, 0:20:28.050 --> 0:20:31.750 in Congress, people aren't having the debate of what laws 0:20:31.790 --> 0:20:34.400 should be federal and what laws should be state. No, 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:39.270 we have a few AI billionaires dumping money in elections, 0:20:39.810 --> 0:20:42.510 realizing that these state laws are passing and they're having 0:20:42.550 --> 0:20:45.129 trouble stopping the state laws. So they think they could 0:20:45.150 --> 0:20:49.210 just buy the Republican Party under Donald Trump. and rammed 0:20:49.250 --> 0:20:51.190 through an end to all those state laws. 0:20:51.350 --> 0:20:55.709 But interestingly, it was a Republican who really stopped that happening. 0:20:55.730 --> 0:20:58.600 It was Marsha Blackburn from Tennessee because she did not 0:20:58.670 --> 0:21:04.740 want AI-created music to be essentially hurting one of the 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:06.159 big industries in her state. 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:10.760 Right. Look, they have not so far been successful at 0:21:10.940 --> 0:21:15.960 completely capturing every single member of the Republican Party in 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:18.280 the Senate and in the house. So they've run into 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.600 some of those speed bumps and that creates the opening 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.580 and the opportunity for us to say, yeah, now let's 0:21:24.619 --> 0:21:30.399 get serious about national legislation to protect people's safety. But 0:21:30.540 --> 0:21:34.560 I'm not interested in basically cutting the States off at 0:21:34.619 --> 0:21:38.870 the knees, not putting in place an adequate safety infrastructure 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:43.159 at the national level. And then everybody is screwed right now. Uh, 0:21:43.310 --> 0:21:46.220 you know, The Republicans are starting to get pressure from 0:21:46.260 --> 0:21:48.620 their base, from their voters, for them to start tackling 0:21:48.660 --> 0:21:51.129 these issues. So Donald Trump says he's putting a safety 0:21:51.170 --> 0:21:54.109 framework in place. Well, when we ask what the safety 0:21:54.150 --> 0:21:56.609 framework is, they say it's a secret. When we say, well, 0:21:56.650 --> 0:21:58.669 who knows the secret? They say our friends at the companies. 0:21:59.310 --> 0:22:02.020 I mean, that's nuts. It's completely unacceptable. He says there's 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.820 a safety framework, but people in Congress can't even see it. 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:07.760 I mean, that's the kind of BS that we're dealing with, 0:22:07.859 --> 0:22:10.380 which is why when you say, well, what's the appropriate 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:12.510 balance of power between the states and the federal government? 0:22:12.570 --> 0:22:15.450 I'm like, well, let's start out with, shouldn't we have 0:22:16.130 --> 0:22:19.710 a national safety framework that everybody can read? And so 0:22:19.750 --> 0:22:22.610 I think that's where we need to get to without 0:22:22.710 --> 0:22:25.940 going and cutting off things. Like I just met with 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:29.310 a couple of great state legislators in Minnesota who who 0:22:29.350 --> 0:22:33.040 successfully passed a ban on what's called nudification. 0:22:33.580 --> 0:22:35.659 Using AI basically to take somebody's clothes off. 0:22:35.859 --> 0:22:38.900 Yeah. I mean, everybody over here pitches AI on saying 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:41.780 we're going to do medical research. And then, you know, 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.520 Elon Musk is over here saying that he wants to 0:22:44.540 --> 0:22:50.310 defend his AI model's ability to non-consensually take people's clothes off. 0:22:50.970 --> 0:22:54.909 And I mean, what these state legislators were responding to 0:22:54.950 --> 0:22:58.470 is the way that it really helps the horrific child 0:22:58.490 --> 0:23:04.540 pornography industry. And so they passed a ban on nudification. And, 0:23:04.940 --> 0:23:08.040 you know, you would think that the AI billionaires who 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:12.040 say they're all for, you know, space exploration and cancer 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:15.030 research would say, okay, that's fine. But no, Elon Musk 0:23:15.220 --> 0:23:18.750 is now suing the state of Minnesota to try to 0:23:18.790 --> 0:23:21.830 get rid of their nudification ban. I mean, give me 0:23:21.850 --> 0:23:25.300 a break. And so again, I wish we were having 0:23:25.340 --> 0:23:29.220 a conversation about federalism and national safety laws. But what's 0:23:29.300 --> 0:23:32.240 really going on behind the scenes here, and in Elon's case, 0:23:32.260 --> 0:23:34.859