1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld. In the United States, a 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: highly organized intelligence system really did not exist before World 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: War Two. Our geographic isolation, coupled with puritan inherited notions 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: that we were above such behavior, meant spying on our 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: enemies or our allies was a relatively rare, often haphazard undertaking. 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: But as Nicholas Reynolds details in his new book Need 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: to Know World War Two and the Rise of American Intelligence, 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: that national restraint gave way during the war to an extraordinary, 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: intricate network of spying, which post war would grow into 10 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: our modern intelligence system. Here to talk about his new book, 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Nicholas Reynolds. He 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: is the New York Times best selling author of Writer 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: Sailor Soldier Spy and has worked in the fields of 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: modern intelligence and military history for forty years. He has 15 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,919 Speaker 1: a PhD from Oxford University and joined the United States 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: Marine Corps in the nineteen seventies, serving as an infantry 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: officer and then as a historian. Nick, welcome and thank 18 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: you for joining me on news World. Thank you, mister speaker. 19 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: Pleasure to be here. I just wanted to start with 20 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: an interesting story that I just read of more than 21 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: a dozen World War two ships being revealed in the 22 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: water after a drought on the Danube River caused the 23 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: lowest water levels of the la past century. The German 24 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: ship's exposed the Danube, Europe's second longest river, had been 25 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: part of Nazi Germany's Black Sea Fleet. They were sunk 26 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: by the retreating German navy in nineteen forty four to 27 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: prevent them from falling into the hands of the advancing 28 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: Soviet army. As I understand it, your mother's actually from Hungary, 29 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: that's correct, so she may well have lived along the Danube. 30 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: She lived in Budapest, so she was there in December 31 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: nineteen forty four and January, maybe a little part of 32 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: February nineteen forty five. Basically she was living in a 33 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: bunker for self protection while the fighting went along. I 34 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: think this is an intriguing development. It's sort of like 35 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,839 Speaker 1: history being uncovered, and we could take it as a 36 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: metaphor for World War two history. I like World War 37 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: Two for a lot of reasons. One is that my 38 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: family was involved in it, but another is that I 39 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: think most of the documentation from World War Two is 40 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: available and historians like me are able to use it 41 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: to write books. You're kind of a little bit appropriately 42 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: designed to be a military historian. Now as I understand it, 43 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: you got your PhD from Oxford University and then you 44 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,679 Speaker 1: joined the US Marine Corps in the nineteen seventies. Why 45 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: did you desire to join them Marine Corps. Well, I'm 46 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: just a little too young for Vietnam, but I was 47 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: right on the cusp there. I felt, you know, it 48 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: was something that I guess, I feel, if we're going 49 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,679 Speaker 1: to impose national service on some people, we ought to 50 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: impose it on everybody. And then it was also curiosity 51 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: about what it's like to be in the military. For 52 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: my generation, most people we knew had been in the 53 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: military at some point for a year or two. It 54 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: was an experience. Maybe it wasn't a positive experience the 55 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: whole time, but it was an experience that everyone share. 56 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: And my parents' generation talk about World War Two again, 57 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: that so many people went, and if you didn't go, 58 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: then you worked in a munitions factory, you worked for 59 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: an aircraft factory, whatever. So I guess it's sort of 60 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: a World War Two mindset that drove me to join 61 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. Did you run into any other PhDs 62 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: who had joined That's a great question. So I was 63 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: in the infantry, and you know, they're a lot of 64 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: smart guys. Aaron guy smart at me. And I've got 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: to say, very rarely did anybody go, oh, I don't 66 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: want to talk to him, he's got a PhD. Mostly 67 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: it was we're brother officers, fellow marines, and whoever we 68 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: were before, we're now Marines, and that's what matters. I 69 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: was gonna mention. I mean, you didn't just join the military, 70 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: you joined the Marine Corps, which is the most distinctive 71 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: of the services. That's what we would say. I still 72 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: say that all of asdden. My dad spent twenty seven 73 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: years in the infantry. I'm an Army brat, but having 74 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: hung out with all the major services, the Marines clearly 75 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: are much more formative. I always tell people you served 76 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: in the army, you are a Marine. You can't get 77 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: out of it. That's all we saying. And there's probably 78 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: no accident. For the first interview I did for this 79 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: book was down in Quantico for the Marine Corps Association. 80 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: You became the officer in charge of field history, sending 81 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: historians around the world to capture combat as it was happening, 82 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: which is something which Sla Marshall had pioneered in World 83 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: War Two. How did you find that experience of trying 84 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: to understand the confusion and complexity of battle in virtually 85 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: real time? Boy, what a great question. What we normally 86 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: did was conduct oral history interviews, and that's how we 87 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: captured it. But at the same time we asked the 88 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: field historians to keep a journal in which they recorded 89 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: their impressions of what was going on. So maybe that 90 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: pattern doesn't come clear until much later because you're only 91 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: experiencing this small slice of it. In Operation Iraqi Freedom 92 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, I was attached to a 93 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: senior headquarters, so I had a little better chance of 94 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: seeing the General McKiernan is trying to do this, and 95 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: General Franks is saying that I had a bigger picture, 96 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: and then we could refine that picture later on. I 97 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: think it was a fascinating and rewarding way to be 98 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: a historian, and has the added benefit of the participants 99 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: have a chance to record their experience as well. The 100 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: memories are still fresh, and on more than one occasion 101 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: we have people come up to us and thank us 102 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: for giving them that opportunity, So we felt we were 103 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: doing a social good in addition to preserving a military history. 104 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: From there, you then taught history in case studies and 105 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: intelligence at the Naval War College, which is a very 106 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: famous institution which once housed Alfred Theoremahan. It did probably 107 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: the most influential naval theorist in history. What was it 108 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: like to come out of the field and now be 109 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: in a classroom thinking through what you've learned? That was 110 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: in two thousand four, right. I came from Iraq and 111 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: Kuwait and went to the Naval War College. There were 112 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: a lot of other people, officers, students and faculty who 113 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: had been to the war, so we were all kind 114 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: of digesting it together. The amazing thing about military history 115 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: is everyone doesn't come to the same conclusion. I mean, 116 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: some people saying it was this kind of fight and 117 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: this is the weapon system that worked best. Other people say, no, 118 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: absolutely not, it was the other weapon system or the 119 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: other decision should have been made. But it was fascinating 120 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: to try and boil down what we had experienced and 121 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: to come to some kind of consensus about what had happened. 122 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: I'm curious, I've never had a chance answer to anybody. 123 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: Have you ever looked at the effort to understand combat 124 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: history and the Civil War? Because as I'm listening to you, 125 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, they're taking a very tiny military 126 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: on both sides and radical changes in combat capability and 127 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: adapting in a four year prayer to an astonishing degree. 128 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: I'm curious how much that was self aware and how 129 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: much of it was just doing whatever worked. I have 130 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: looked at Civil War history and as the war goes on, 131 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: how does an army learn how to fight? You know, 132 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: does the general conscious say I'm going to try this 133 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: kind of tactic or does he wake up one morning 134 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: and just do it. I do have a theory, and 135 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: that is on the tactical level. On the eight or 136 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: ten guys around you, it's probably more reflexive. You don't 137 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: think about what you're doing. You just go and do it. 138 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people who are successful in 139 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: combat are also gifted athletes. So there's the quick muscle memory, 140 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: there's the quick reflexes. There's also a kind of charisma 141 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: that propels you and your comrades and arms towards the front. 142 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: At the higher levels, that becomes so complicated fast these days. 143 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: You become a soldier of marine and you do that 144 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: all day for twenty years. Right, You go to school, 145 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: you go to exercises and whatnot. What was the pattern 146 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: in the Civil War? Grant went and ran a grocery 147 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: store for a while. You know, after he graduated from 148 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: West Point and the Civil War, he wasn't going to 149 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: professional tools. You did go to the Mexican American War, 150 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: so there was a little bit of learning there. But 151 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: how do these guys learn after the war. You do 152 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: have some people who are trying to sit down and 153 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: go so what worked and what didn't work? But during 154 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: the war itself, boy, I don't know. Do you clearly 155 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: have you know Jackson's ability in the Valley at the 156 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: very beginning of the war. He clearly inspires his troops 157 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: in a way that makes them stunningly effective. The Army 158 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: of the West under both Grant and Sherman is very 159 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: very fast, whereas McClelland, who's an engineer, creates a very slow, 160 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: cumbersome engineer like armies. It's just interesting question. That's the 161 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: training at West Point. They're trained to be engineers, all right. 162 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: They weren't actually trained into war fighting in that cycle, 163 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: they wanted the engineers to go out and build America, 164 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: which they had been doing. So to get back to 165 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: your history, you automately go to work for the CIA. 166 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: How did you become a CIA archivist? In historian? A 167 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: generalist first? And in my day which would be the 168 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties. Now, if you want to join CIA, 169 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: you go to the website and you look up the 170 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: career track you want, you press a button. In my days, 171 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: so I want to give you a phone number and say, oh, 172 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: call Bob. Long story short, I wound up as a 173 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: generalist and I was in the director of Operations, and 174 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: so I was involved at home and abroad with espionage. 175 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: And then at the end of my career, I had 176 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: another great niche job, which was historian for the CIA Museum, 177 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: and I did that for about five years, and that 178 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: was a terrific job because it's a small museum with 179 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: a tiny staff, and that means you get to do everything. 180 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: So you're not confined to writing the labels for an exhibit, 181 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: but you can do strategic planning. You take tours, you 182 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: go out and visit other museums, you benchmark, you write monographs, 183 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: you write exhibit guides, and that led into my World 184 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: War Two work, or better said, I looped back into 185 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: World War Two from my work at the CIA Museum 186 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: said at one point, it's the best museum you ever saw, 187 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: and the rest of us won't be there. I happen 188 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: to have. They're promotional and it says the best museum 189 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: you never saw, and it's on the premises at CIA headquarters. 190 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: I think it's a neat little museum. Of course I'm biased, 191 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: and it's primarily a museum for the employees. The NSA 192 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: Museum is outside defense, so that's more for the general public. 193 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: The CIA Museum, the intended audience is mostly the workforce. Hi, 194 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: this is nude. We have serious decisions to make about 195 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: the future of our country. Americans must confront big government socialism, 196 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: which has taken over the modern Democratic Party, big business, news, media, entertainment, 197 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: and academia. My new best selling book, Defeating Big Government 198 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: Socialism Saving America's Future offers strategies and sites for everyday 199 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: citizens to save America's future and ensure it remains the 200 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: greatest nation on Earth. Here's a special offer for my 201 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: podcast listeners. You can order an autograph copy of my 202 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: new book Defeating Big Government Socialism right now at gingwishtree 203 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash book and we'll ship it directly 204 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: to you. Don't miss out on this special offer. It's 205 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: only available for a limited time. Go to gingwishtree sixty 206 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: dot com slash book to order your copy now. Order 207 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: it today at gingwishtree sixty dot com slash book. What 208 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 1: drew you to deciding to study and write about World 209 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: War Two? So something that's been in my blood, As 210 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: I say, it's what I grew up with. It wasn't 211 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: innertable conversation every day, but it was, you know, every 212 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: so often, and you saw little bits of World War two. 213 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: So that my mother was in the siege of Budapest, 214 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: and so after dinner she would very carefully preserve the leftovers. 215 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: And her brother had been a soldier and he'd been 216 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: captured and when he ate, he surrounded his plate with 217 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: his arm to protect his food. So it was part 218 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: of our lives, is what I'm saying. I've always loved 219 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: to read, and so I start reading, and then I 220 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: started meeting people. I wound up. My dad was in 221 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: the Foreign Service after World War Two. We were stationed 222 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: in Germany, and what better place to study World War 223 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: two than Germany, which so this would be late sixties, 224 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: early seventies, where people are still walking the streets who 225 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: were in the fight in the war, and then she 226 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: generally willing to talk about it. So I did a 227 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: little bit of archival research and then kind of fast forward. 228 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: I have a friend named David Kahn who's the author 229 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: of a groundbreaking were called Code Break. He wrote the 230 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: history of code breaking when it wasn't cool to do so, 231 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies, when people didn't know what 232 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: you could or couldn't say. And he told me one day, 233 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: he says, you know, nobody's ever written a history of 234 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: American intelligence in World War Two that looks at more 235 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: than one discipline. So that's what drove me to write 236 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: this book, to try and look at the various disciplines 237 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: and how they grew up during the war and what 238 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: their relationship was to each other. When you talk about disciplines, 239 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: can you walk us through what do you mean by disciplines? Sure, 240 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: a really distinct discipline is cryptology, code making, and then 241 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: code breaking. People who tend to be mathematicians, not exclusively mathematicians, 242 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: linguists and have something that one of the great code 243 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: breakers called cipher brains. They just have the knack, they 244 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: have the magic that enables them to do it. So 245 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: that's a very distinct discipline in the world of intelligence. 246 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: Other disciplines you get progressively, they're not as hard and distinct. 247 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: There's photo reconnaissance, which is huge in World War Two, 248 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: and then there's various kinds of radio intelligence where you're 249 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: trying to figure out where the enemy is by traffic 250 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: analysis and that sort of thing, as opposed to breaking 251 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: his coats. And then you get onto special operations, you 252 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: get research and analysis, you get secret intelligence where you're 253 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: trying to recruit spies and steal secrets. It's a village 254 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: of skills. My point in the book is at the 255 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: beginning of the war, the people in this village live 256 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: in different huts, and they don't necessarily get along or 257 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: even talk to each other. In some cases, they're not 258 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: even aware who lives in the other hut, let alone 259 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: knowing what he's doing in that hut. And there are, 260 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: by the way, a few women involved in this, so 261 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: I say, guys, it is overwhelmingly male. At the beginning 262 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: of the war, by the middle or end of the war, 263 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: you find, especially in code breaking, you find up to 264 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: one third one half of the workforce is female. So 265 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: this is a culture shift as women come out of 266 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: the home and go into the war effort. Well in 267 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: in terms of code breaking in some ways. The most 268 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: famous single example was the guys in the basement who 269 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: figured out that the Japanese were going to Midway, which 270 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: is sort of astonishing. So I have a chapter on him, 271 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: Joe Roachford and his gang, and they're an unusual bunch, 272 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: completely dedicated. So this is before you get modern air handlers, right, 273 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: So you're basically an abasement with a couple of fans, 274 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: and everybody smokes cigarettes or pipes or cigars, and so 275 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: the air is foul, the light is poor, and yet 276 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: they produce. They're an unusual mix of code breakers, of 277 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: traffic analysis, of trying to figure out, well, you know, 278 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: you had five messages from here yesterday and ten messages 279 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: from there, does that suggest anything as well as sort 280 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: of area knowledge, who the Japanese officers were, what they 281 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: were likely to do. Admiral Yamamoto, by the way, as 282 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: you may know, had been enabled at tesche in Washington 283 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: so a lot of these guys knew Admiral Yamamoto, and 284 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: he'd liked to play poker, he'd liked to drink bourbon. 285 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: You put it all together that they could into it 286 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: where he might go and what he might do, and 287 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: they were right. So it was a near run things, 288 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: and there was no point before the battle of which 289 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: you could feel really good that it would go our way, 290 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: and even after. There's a little part of my book 291 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: that I like. So the carrier strikes against the Japanese. 292 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: The US aircraft carrier pilots successfully attack and hit the 293 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: four Japanese carriers, but they can't fly around the carrier 294 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: and wait for it to sink, right, It takes a 295 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: long time for an aircraft carrier to sink. So these 296 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: guys got to fly back to land and refuel and whatnot, 297 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: and they leave these carriers burning on the horizon. Well, 298 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: there's no radio intelligence. Guys can't tell for sure what's happened. 299 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: And there is one guy who does know, and it's 300 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: the sole survivor of the torpedo squadron that flew in 301 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: low and got shot down. And he is bobbing in 302 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: the water while the Japanese fleet is sailing passed, and 303 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: then thirty six hours later he's picked up of it 304 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: is really almost by chance that patrol plane passes and 305 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: sees him and comes down and he says, yeah, I 306 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: saw them, sinc I saw three carriers sink with my 307 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: very own eyes. And that's when they had the absolute 308 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 1: confirmation that the hits had led to I like these 309 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: personal stories in World War two, and at the beginning 310 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: of the war it seemed to be more personal stories. 311 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: The end of the war, there's more industry. The survivor 312 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: actually was a constituent of mine and used to come 313 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: by and talk about in San Gay, right, George Gay, Yeah, 314 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: and San Gay. It's astonishing. People don't realize that the 315 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: torpedo planes actually didn't do any damage, but they drew 316 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: all the Japanese fighters down, which created the space for 317 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: the dive bombers who then sank the carriers. It's one 318 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: of the most amazing stories. But now, well, that's sort 319 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: of the great intelligence breakthrough in the Pacific. In the Atlantic, 320 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: the ability to decipher the Enigma system and the building 321 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: of the bomb, which was the name for the first 322 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: really big computer generated constant waves of information in a 323 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: way that I don't think Nimt's ever had the advantage 324 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: of me. We actually know an amazing amount about what 325 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: the Germans are doing strategically, not necessarily tactically, but just 326 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: be able to track both in the sea and air 327 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: and land what they're up to. What degree is that 328 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: dominant factor in looking at intelligence in World War Two? Well, 329 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: I give it at least the chapter in the book. 330 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: So I think it's an important part of the picture 331 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. One is the partnership with 332 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 1: the British, which is sort of like dating at the beginning, 333 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: that kind of like two groups that have been sent 334 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: on blind dates and then they sort of carefully maneuver 335 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: around each other and get to know each other. So 336 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: the Atlantic, the war against the U boats is a 337 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: big part of how this code breaking alliance, Anglo American 338 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: code breaking alliance gets going. The other part is we 339 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: sink the submarines, the ally sink the submarines. It's a 340 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: remarkable combination of code breaking, yes, getting the message and 341 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: breaking it out and seeing that the U boat is 342 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: being ordered to a certain position in the water. But 343 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: it's reinforced by other things such as radio direction finding. 344 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: So there's thirty or forty sites on the perimeter of 345 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: the North and South Atlantic, and so a German submarine 346 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: that broadcasts even for thirty seconds is picked up on 347 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: one or two or three of these, and so there 348 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: are lines back to its position. So these guys, it's 349 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: a really clear cut intelligence triumphs that in the intelligence 350 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: business you often don't have, like, Okay, we had this 351 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: input and we had that result. In this case, you 352 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: can say without intelligence, you're not going to be there. 353 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: Intelligence didn't sink the ships or the submarines, but it 354 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: created the conditions that led to their sinking. And the 355 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: other is the amazing tenacity and aggressiveness of these young 356 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: American naval aviators who are flying out over the water. 357 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: A lot of the patrolling is just deadly dull. I mean, 358 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: mile after mile of empty ocean, and then you see 359 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: a German submarine and then you go in attack and 360 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 1: nobody's watching you. Right, There's nobody else there. There's not 361 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: like a formation that hey, we're all going to fly down. 362 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: So these guys are self motivated and they do a 363 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: terrific job and they don't quit until they get it done. 364 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: Part of what's interesting about our ultimate intelligence capabilities was 365 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: that before the war, FDR President Roosevelt really didn't have 366 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: any great interest in developing a professional intelligence service. It 367 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: really emerges very slowly. You could say that he is 368 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: not a manager or leader of intelligence, especially compared to 369 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: his colleague across the water, Winston Churchill. Winston Churchill has 370 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: the knowledge and the sixth sense to run British intelligence 371 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: at a high level. FDR he used to say he 372 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: was the juggler, and he had one set of balls 373 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: in one hand and another set of balls in the 374 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: other hand, and he never mixed the balls together. And 375 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: that was kind of his approach to intelligence. So he 376 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: had a little a group here that did something, and 377 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: a group there that did something. FDR would task somebody 378 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: to do something outside an organization, so he did that 379 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: a lot. With the State Department. He would send somebody 380 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: as his personal emissary and he'd say, please communicate with me, 381 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: not with the State Department. And I was kind of 382 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: his approach to intelligence. By sense is you're a lot 383 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: better off when you have the organizations working together and 384 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: developing protocols that work for the organization, as we see 385 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: in the submarines that we mentioned a couple of minutes ago, 386 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: and yet in the middle of all that and typically 387 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: ROOSEVELTI in fashion, he reaches out to a New York 388 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: political acquaintance and lawyer who had been I think a 389 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: World War One Medal of Honor winner, William J. Donovan, 390 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: who then creates the Office of Strategic Services or OSS, 391 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: and is considered the founding father of the CIA. I'm 392 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: very curious, what's your take on Donovan. Who's just sort 393 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: of an amazing guy. He is, and he's got like 394 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: a senior aide named Rogers. He's a mountain climber, he's 395 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: a lawyer, he's been a professor, he's been head of 396 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: a college at Yale, and he's like the national security 397 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: advisor within OSS. He's like the first door outside Donovan's office. 398 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: And he says, you know, Donovan is just a wonderful guy. 399 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: He's got all these ideas, he's got all this charisma 400 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: and charm, but he's also one of the most disorganized 401 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: people you ever saw. And he's going in ten directions 402 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: at once. And Rogers uses the term mustang plunges. He says, 403 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: it's like trying to harness a mustang to a carriage, 404 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: and the Mustang is just fighting the whole time, So 405 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: he has mixed feelings about Donovan. The long and the 406 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: short of it is Donovan gives us the idea of 407 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: central intelligence and that you have an organization that under 408 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: one umbrella, has a number of disciplines. So that's his 409 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: lasting contribution. I think it's almost like a novel. You 410 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: have these large, traditional professional bureaucracies and then you have 411 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: this wild man show up and he recruits other wild men. 412 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: Later in his career. I knew Bill Casey who had 413 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: been a Jedburgh and had been dropped into France to 414 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: fight the Nazis, and Casey clearly was sort of a 415 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: miniature version of Donovan. Yeah, that was the picture that 416 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: Casey had on his desk for his whole life. Was 417 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: Donovan definitely a role model, and Casey was an amazing 418 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: learner in World War Two. His specialty's business law, right, 419 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: So it's how he runs a firm that whose purpose 420 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:59,239 Speaker 1: is to tell businessmen how to navigate the regulations of 421 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: the New Deal, and it's very successful. There's nothing here 422 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: that says intel, right, There's nothing here that says he's 423 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: going to be good, except that he's orderly, and absorbs 424 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,719 Speaker 1: facts really fast, and so he winds up and I 425 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: believe he doesn't join up till like forty three, and 426 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: so in the space of like a year or a 427 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: year and a half he learns enough about this business. 428 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: He basically runs the operations to put paramilitary oss types 429 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: behind German lines in Germany, which the British didn't want 430 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: to do. So he's actually having people in the winter 431 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: of forty four forty five. They're parachuting many cases with 432 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: no preparations on the ground, like there's not a group 433 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: waiting with a bottle of wine and a loaf of 434 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 1: bread like in France, and they're pretty successful. Now does 435 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: it change the outcome of the war. No, but it's 436 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: pretty impressive speaking of Casey here that he learned so fast. 437 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: He was totally dedicated to his work. In some ways, 438 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: he was the manager that Donovan should have been. And 439 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 1: one of the early task that he had was to 440 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: sort out the paper flow in Donovan's office and he did. 441 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,479 Speaker 1: And then they said, okay, we think David Bruce in London, 442 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: we think his office could use a little tune up too. 443 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: So this young man shows up and he's telling David 444 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: Bruce is already kind of a big guy that he's 445 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: there to organize his office, and Bruce says, yeah, sure 446 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: you are, have a seat over there and I'll call 447 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: you what I need you. It does make a niche 448 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: for himself doing these operations. Quite a story, but that 449 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: was typical of Donovan. I mean Donovan would recruit talent 450 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: from all over the place. Absolutely, Donovan found great talent. 451 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: Donovan was no spring chicken. Right, so he's fifty seven 452 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: when the war starts. This war is a young man's business. 453 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: The guy's flying the missions. They're in near twenties. Donovan 454 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: had all this energy and accomplished as much as he did. 455 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: Is a credit to him. In retrospect, we wish he 456 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: had been more organized, or wish he'd followed orders a 457 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: little better. He was a little bit like Roosevelt and 458 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: that he was mister workaround. Instead of coming up with 459 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: a procedure to do it, he would figure out how 460 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: to go around the procedure and talk to somebody who 461 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: would let him do what he wanted well, and of 462 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: course the process would drive the traditional bureaucracies crazy. Yes. Absolutely. 463 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,239 Speaker 1: A good example is Digre Hoover, who was a very 464 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: orderly man, and the two classed increasingly as the war 465 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: went on. They were sort of frenemies. Doesn't quite get it. 466 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: At the beginning of the war, they were rivals who 467 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: were civil to each other at the beginning of the war. 468 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: By the end of the war was like, I'm not 469 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: dealing with that blankety blank. So all of this comes 470 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: to sort of a crisis point as the war ends 471 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: and the bureaucracies win, and on September twentieth, nineteen forty five, 472 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: Truman signs the Executive Order which ends the OSS. The 473 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: State Department gets the Research and Analysis branch, the War 474 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: Department takes over the secret intelligence and counter espionage branch, 475 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: and created a new Strategic Services Unit. And for the moment, 476 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: it looked like we weren't moving towards a central intelligence capability, 477 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: and yet all of that knowledge had come forward. And 478 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: how did it then lead to ultimately the Central Intelligence Agency? 479 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: Because the fact is, within months of having abolished the OSS, 480 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: Truman turns around and creates the Central Intelligence Group. Right, 481 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: there was a group called the Bureau of the Budget, 482 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: which is sort of like OMB. It was kind of 483 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 1: like the management company for the executive branch, and that 484 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: was the guy that the president would look to say, 485 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: I want to establish an organization to do this, show 486 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: me how to do it, or now that the war 487 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: is over, we need to do that. What do we 488 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: have to do. Truman, he's not been briefed on anything 489 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: when he becomes president. He hasn't been briefed on the 490 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: atomic bomb. He hasn't been briefed on code breaking. And 491 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: he's not a member of the Eastern Elite. You know, 492 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: the guys have been running the country, and so he's 493 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: got this tremendous learning and so he relies pretty heavily 494 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: on the Bureau of the Budget guys who want to 495 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: see OSS gone for various reasons. Donovan was too wild 496 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: on disciplined. A lot of the members of OSS were 497 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: uniformed soldiers, a few sailors and marines, and there are 498 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: times they had to go back to their parent organization 499 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: and be be mobilized. So there was going to be 500 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: some shrinkage, and so they abolish OSS and keep its parts. 501 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: But Truman says, we don't want to lose all the capabilities. 502 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: Let's try and find a way to organize this. Late 503 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: nineteen forty five, the government, the Washington establishments just thrashing 504 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: around wildly trying to figure this out. And it doesn't 505 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: help that they're really strong personalities of play. My theory 506 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: is that the war being over, the Japanese and the 507 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: Germans are not there to focus everyone's attention, so they 508 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: can fight each other more bitterly. You know, under some 509 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: real characters. There's Secretary Forrestall, who used to be a 510 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: bar sir. I mean, he's not an easy going guy, 511 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: and he's one of the more reasonable guys. Jimmy Burns 512 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: from South Carolina, the Secretary of State whose nickname in 513 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: Washington was the Assistant President, and he thought he should 514 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: have been FDR's running mate. So, I mean, these guys 515 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: just butt heads mercilessly kind of. By the end of 516 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: nineteen forty five, everyone's exhausted and they come up with 517 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: a compromise solution that doesn't work and is refined until 518 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty seven you get a CIA by legislation. 519 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: The bottom line here, I think is that this is 520 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: part of Truman's learning curve, and that he did want 521 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: a strong enough intelligence organization and eventually he got there, 522 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: something that I don't think FDR would ever have done. 523 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: I think FDR would have tried to keep juggling the balls. 524 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: I think Truman deserves credit for wanting to be disciplined 525 00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: and organized and trying to get these things into one box. Nick. 526 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. I want 527 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: to let our listeners know that we're gonna have a 528 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: link to your new book, Need to Know World War 529 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: Two and the Rise of American Intelligence on our showpage 530 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: at Newtsworld dot com. And I look forward to having 531 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: another New York Times bestseller on your hands. Thank you, 532 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: mister speaker. Thank you to my guests Nicholas Reynolds. You 533 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: can get a link to buy his new book, Need 534 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: to Know World War Two and the Rise of American 535 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: Intelligence on our showpage at Newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is 536 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: produced by Gingwich Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 537 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howe, and our 538 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was 539 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at 540 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: Gingwich Sweet sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 541 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with 542 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 543 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of neutra 544 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: World can sign up from my three free weekly columns 545 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: at Gangwage Free sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gangridge. 546 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: This is newt World