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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told your protection of I heart Radio, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the first segment, Our guess a subsegment, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: of women around the world, fictional women around the world,

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Speaker 1: where I highlight influential fictional women are influential to me?

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Speaker 1: Or are you listeners? Because you can always suggest I

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Speaker 1: do feel like it's funny. I feel like you come

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Speaker 1: up with this idea for a segment highlighting real women

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Speaker 1: who are doing powerful things, and I'm like, but what

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Speaker 1: about the fictional women, Like we wanted these episodes to

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Speaker 1: be easy, educational and moved like quick, and we know

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Speaker 1: what your expertise, thank you, and one of those is

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Speaker 1: understanding and really getting in doubt with these fictional care

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Speaker 1: just that people connect to. So that's the thing. It's

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Speaker 1: definitely a thing, yes, And that this will be probably

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Speaker 1: once a month, that was our intention. But sometimes I'm

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Speaker 1: sure events will come up and they're all be real

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Speaker 1: women actually doing things, and this might get moved. I

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Speaker 1: won't be offended. And for this first subsegment, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to start with Abby Anderson, which was actually your suggestion Smith,

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Speaker 1: and I just took it and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's okay. It wasn't a suggestion, it was my assumption

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Speaker 1: that you would automatically start here. Well, I took it

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Speaker 1: as a suggestion. And here we are, so Abby from

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Speaker 1: the last of Us two and there are spoilers in

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Speaker 1: this episode. I feel like I've accidentally spoiled this for

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Speaker 1: anybody who listens to this show many times. But I

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Speaker 1: will put it out there if you've somehow amazingly avoided spoilers,

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Speaker 1: including from me, this one will probably spoil you on

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Speaker 1: a lot of big thought points in this game. And

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Speaker 1: Samantha and I we have this chant where we say, Abby, Abby, Abbey,

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Speaker 1: I got a relationship with this character. I feel things

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Speaker 1: you do I do so the Last Things two I

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Speaker 1: just became the most awarded game of all time. And

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Speaker 1: they just cast the HBO show, which was the day

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Speaker 1: I was getting many, many messages, and I really am

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Speaker 1: determined to be Abby. I'll start working out. I'll take

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Speaker 1: the death threats. I won't be happy about it, but

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Speaker 1: I'll take them. But apparently everyone thinks I'm more of

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Speaker 1: an Ellie, so I would happily play her too. I'd

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Speaker 1: have to. Let's working out for me, right, so hbo

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Speaker 1: here I am. I really like that you took a

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Speaker 1: straphole and you were so determined, even though I had

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Speaker 1: been telling you for months now, because you keep saying

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Speaker 1: I'm an Abbey and I'm like, no, no, you're not.

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Speaker 1: Everybody individually told you, no, you're not, You're Ellie and

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Speaker 1: you just refused to hear it. So the surprise when

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Speaker 1: you texted me like was it a week ago where

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Speaker 1: you were like what everybody thinks that? It's like, how

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Speaker 1: are you surprised? You told me? Your friends told you

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Speaker 1: you are Nellie. I told you you're an Ellie. How

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Speaker 1: are you so prize bite this? What is happening? I

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Speaker 1: thought i'd at least get one. I legitimately apparently this

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Speaker 1: is a great way to roul me up to Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I really wasn't trying to be obstinate. I believed it,

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Speaker 1: but because everyone else had a different answer, I actually

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Speaker 1: sat no joke. I sat down in silence for like

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Speaker 1: two minutes and just thought about like my features and

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Speaker 1: the character's features, and I was like, Okay, I see

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Speaker 1: it can't be changed. There you go. I did find

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Speaker 1: that really cute though, because as we are talking about

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Speaker 1: the show coming forward and whether or not who's gonna

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Speaker 1: be what cast. You know, we already had our predictors, because,

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Speaker 1: as we've talked about previously, when someone loves something so much,

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Speaker 1: your group is going to get caught up in that.

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Speaker 1: And you love things and fil things, really deeply specific things,

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Speaker 1: and last of us has to be one of those things.

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Speaker 1: To the point that you made sure that someone else

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Speaker 1: play this so you can just watch and revel in

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Speaker 1: the feeling of being a spectator like that was a

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Speaker 1: really big important thing for you. And I found that

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Speaker 1: interesting because I ended up being the spectator too, because

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Speaker 1: I definitely would not play this. I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: I barely all right amy able to play Mario Kart,

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Speaker 1: but like to watch you revel and get caught up

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Speaker 1: in this. Of course, all of us had feels after

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Speaker 1: that about who is what and where, even though it's

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Speaker 1: not as deep for us as it is for you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to see what happens with the show, to

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Speaker 1: see if people like really get into it like they

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Speaker 1: have other HBO shows. Very very excited. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: story is great, and I know we've talked about it before,

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Speaker 1: but like baseline, zombies have wiped out most everybody. The

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Speaker 1: world is a violent, apocalyptic mess. There's no cure for

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Speaker 1: this zombie thing until we find out that our protagonist,

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Speaker 1: Ellie is immune. And Ellie was definitely going to be

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Speaker 1: one of these focus is for one of these episodes

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Speaker 1: future Entry, for sure, and there was a chance at

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Speaker 1: a cure, but it would have killed Ellie. So Joel,

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Speaker 1: the character you're playing, killed everybody in the medical facility

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Speaker 1: or pretty much everybody before they can perform the surgery

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Speaker 1: on Ellie. So that's the first one. When you start

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Speaker 1: the second one, the main antagonist at first glance is

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Speaker 1: Abby Anderson, who killed someone Ellie holds dear. I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's really obvious who, but I won't say violently,

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Speaker 1: very violently kills this person, but she lets Ellie go.

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Speaker 1: So you spend the first half of the game hunting Abby,

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Speaker 1: killing her friends, absolutely hating this person, like that's your drive,

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Speaker 1: and then just as you've reached your climactic confrontation with Abbey,

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Speaker 1: it's finally happening. It cuts like literally right there, It

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Speaker 1: cuts to her side of the story, and it makes

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Speaker 1: you the game makes you play as her like on

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Speaker 1: the same timeline and as a player you build empathy

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Speaker 1: with her, are you're supposed to um or at the

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Speaker 1: very least you understand she's more than just a villain.

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Speaker 1: I've seen her described as the false protagonist. People were

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Speaker 1: really piste off. Oh yeah, oh yeah, And we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about that in a second. So it turns

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Speaker 1: out her father was the lead surgeon about to do

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Speaker 1: this surgery on Ellie that Joel killed um and she

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Speaker 1: has been out to get revenge on his death and

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Speaker 1: the death of all the other fireflies that day. And

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Speaker 1: the fireflies are sort of this group that's trying to

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Speaker 1: find a cure, and her father was the only one

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Speaker 1: who could make the vaccine that they knew of at least,

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Speaker 1: and Joel pretty much decimated the fireflies, which, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was very very upsetting. And by the way, Abigail means

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Speaker 1: my father's joy in Hebrew. She had a really close

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Speaker 1: relationship with her father. So during gameplay, she's in her

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Speaker 1: early twenties, so's Ellie, and through a series of flashbacks,

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Speaker 1: you see her as this hopeful teenager and then transitioning

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Speaker 1: from into a bitter, cynical young adult who consistently chooses

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Speaker 1: revenge of her chance at happiness. Until the end of

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Speaker 1: the game. She is certainly struggling with PTSD, as I

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Speaker 1: figured most people would be in this world, which in

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Speaker 1: Abby's case, we see play out in a series of

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Speaker 1: evolving nightmares. She quote stopped looking for the light, and

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Speaker 1: her quest for vengeance estranged her from many of her friends,

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Speaker 1: especially like that violent how violent she became, including her

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Speaker 1: ex Owen and his new pregnant girlfriend Mel. But towards

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Speaker 1: the end of the game, you see her regain some

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Speaker 1: of her hope, only to just heartbreaking ly you see

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Speaker 1: her be emaciated by this world that the characters live in.

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Speaker 1: So she's somebody who absolutely needs a purpose. At first

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Speaker 1: that purpose was the fireflies, the vaccine, and I guess

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Speaker 1: pleasing her father probably, And then that purpose became getting

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Speaker 1: revenge against Joels. She physically trained to be stronger than him. Um.

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Speaker 1: If it's not clear by my past comments, she's really

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Speaker 1: she is really buff for much of the game. Then

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Speaker 1: her purpose becomes being a w LF soldier in a

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Speaker 1: war with local religious groups that she later realizes just

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Speaker 1: perpetuating the cycle of violence, but she has chosen as

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Speaker 1: the top soldier to lead an assault against this religious group.

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Speaker 1: Then her purpose becomes protecting Love, who is a transperson

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Speaker 1: young transperson she meets and continuing the legacy of her

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Speaker 1: father and the wishes of her friend flash past lover Owen.

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Speaker 1: It was not getting vengeance that helps her get over

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Speaker 1: her father's death, but helping others, and she works so hard,

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Speaker 1: she's the top of her game, and all these scenarios.

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Speaker 1: She takes on the Rat King, which is like Zombie zero.

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Speaker 1: It's this huge zombie that like has other zombies living

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Speaker 1: in it that makes her the only known person to

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Speaker 1: defeat one. And well, I guess I'm implied by defeat.

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Speaker 1: But she survives, and she's really terrified of heights, but

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Speaker 1: she faces like the ultimate test of that fear, and

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Speaker 1: I've some of my friends have said that part is

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Speaker 1: the scariest part of the game to them, especially Fair

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Speaker 1: afraid of heights when she's like going on those bridges. Yes,

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Speaker 1: part of her art is choosing to protect kids from

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Speaker 1: this enemy religious group, which is a choice that's influenced

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Speaker 1: by Owen and memories of her father. And after she

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Speaker 1: makes this choice, her nightmares ease and she feels better. However,

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Speaker 1: a friend of hers thinks it's all in act and

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Speaker 1: that it doesn't excuse all the dark she's done over

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Speaker 1: the past few years. And we talked in our Survival

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Speaker 1: Horror episode about kind of this tropes that you see

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Speaker 1: in a lot of horror, but also just here of

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Speaker 1: you know, you have quote strong female main characters, but

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Speaker 1: they are largely a lot of their actions are largely

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Speaker 1: influenced by father figures, are other men in their lives.

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Speaker 1: This whole game is a tragedy, and it's just so.

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Speaker 1: In fact, this very morning, one of my friends, he

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Speaker 1: was with me right in Quarantine, started so March their team.

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Speaker 1: So now we associate playing this game because this game

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Speaker 1: wasn't out yet, but we played the first one and

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Speaker 1: then later we were able to do the second one,

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Speaker 1: and she was very upset at the end, and she

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Speaker 1: just texted me on the blue today all caps sudden

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Speaker 1: and tips last of us two related sadness, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I get it all the time, but yeah, Ellie didn't

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Speaker 1: ask her Joel to kill those people she knew chosen

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Speaker 1: to die for the vaccine, just as Abby told her

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Speaker 1: father she would um. But Ellie was hurt in the

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Speaker 1: fall out of Abby's revenge that in turn kick started

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Speaker 1: Ellie's violent revenge well to them both losing pretty much everything.

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Speaker 1: Um and in the words of my friend, I just

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Speaker 1: mentioned same coin, same side. Yes, And as we've mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and you alluded to Samantha. A lot of people, a

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Speaker 1: large portion of them dudes, hated Abby continue to hate Abby.

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Speaker 1: They hated that she killed one of their favorite characters.

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Speaker 1: I read that her introduction in the game is the

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Speaker 1: quote perfect villain introduction wishes I mean untrue. They thought

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Speaker 1: that there was no way she could be as ripped

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Speaker 1: as she was as a woman, that there was no

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Speaker 1: way she could be stronger than the male characters. They

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Speaker 1: didn't like that she wasn't conventionally attractive. They didn't like

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Speaker 1: half of her storyline was spent helping a transperson. The

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Speaker 1: voice actress Laura Bailey got death threats, as did the

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Speaker 1: game creators. There are numerous YouTube videos showcasing all the

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Speaker 1: violent ways of how Abby could die. There was a

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Speaker 1: petition to change the end of the game, so Abby

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Speaker 1: did die, a petition. Laura Bailey describes Abby as one

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Speaker 1: of the most difficult but fulfilling role she's ever played,

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Speaker 1: and admitted even she took some time to warm up

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Speaker 1: to Abbey when she first played, but she's on several

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Speaker 1: awards for her performance for this role. She also caused

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Speaker 1: play there she did. I know. I know some dudes

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Speaker 1: I've talked to you about this hated Abby even before playing.

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Speaker 1: And the creators actually think that is part of the

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Speaker 1: problem of this whole thing, because there were the big

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Speaker 1: leak that actually forced the game to come out because

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Speaker 1: they were going to delay it even further. But then

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Speaker 1: they're all these leaks and they're like, Okay, release it.

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Speaker 1: And that meant, especially if you only look at the

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Speaker 1: cliff notes of it, a lot of people went into

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Speaker 1: that game hating her already and determined to hate her. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I have a friend who told me, actually the

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Speaker 1: same friend that she was chatting with the dude who

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Speaker 1: groaned when she mentioned that she loved this game and

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Speaker 1: that she loved Abby. My friend asked him why, and

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Speaker 1: he admitted he'd never played it. He just heard things.

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Speaker 1: And I would be curious if, since women are usually

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Speaker 1: more empathetic, if if they are more likely to forgive

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Speaker 1: her at least not outright hate her. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Most lady friends I have like her at least don't

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Speaker 1: hate her UM, while most male friends I have despise

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Speaker 1: her unless they hear that I like her, then they

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Speaker 1: might the grudge the me to be like, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: don't think they can argue with you. I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't know that you are, Like I guess as much

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Speaker 1: as they're like, you're very passionate about this, and I

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Speaker 1: have no arguments for this, Like I have no counter.

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Speaker 1: You're arguably your passionate here, right, because I mean there's

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Speaker 1: a base, there's a core of why. I get why

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Speaker 1: people don't like her, but for sure, But just like

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Speaker 1: I think it is hard to argue once you won't pack,

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Speaker 1: like if you take that away, like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to argue. Recently, the producer of the game,

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Speaker 1: naughty Dog, released an Abbey forward trailer for the game,

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Speaker 1: and people got all riled up all over again. And

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Speaker 1: I saw the headlines like totally avoidable controversy. There is

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Speaker 1: a reddit called respect Abbey all caps she do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's got advocates for sure. Yeah, And I actually found

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Speaker 1: a whole blog about how this person believed that the

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Speaker 1: game did Abby wrong because she was a good character.

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Speaker 1: But it's just so hard because you don't you're not

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Speaker 1: really introduced to her properly or her reasonings until halfway in,

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Speaker 1: So of course it's going to be like really hard

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Speaker 1: and they're trolling, like they want you to have these

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Speaker 1: emotions and then they want to flip it on you

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Speaker 1: real hard. But yes, outside forces caused people to hate

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Speaker 1: someone that they don't even know yet. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: personally loved it. I loved the pain of And now

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Speaker 1: I've got to re examine things. But yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: have a close friend who I think I think I

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Speaker 1: changed his mind because he came. He came at me

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Speaker 1: and he was like, I don't think I like this game.

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Speaker 1: It really made me feel bad. I was like, I

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Speaker 1: think that might have been the point, man, Right, you

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Speaker 1: weren't supposed to leave that feeling good, right? Um? And

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Speaker 1: then I did find another much more prominent article that

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Speaker 1: was listing all the reasons why people hate Abby and

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Speaker 1: I just didn't agree with most of them. But um,

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Speaker 1: they were saying, she's just not a good character, like

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Speaker 1: and her dad isn't a good character, and like I

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Speaker 1: guess though, but nobody really is. Nobody's that great in

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Speaker 1: this world. But anyway, I think as time goes on,

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Speaker 1: this hate will mellow. It is a very emotional game.

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Speaker 1: And I have never ever ever played a game like

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Speaker 1: it that tries to turn someone you spent hours and

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Speaker 1: hours hating and hunting, like it's your retire goal from

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Speaker 1: a protagonist point of view, and then just flipping that

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Speaker 1: and forcing you to understand the actions of the antagonist

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Speaker 1: and like try to survive as this antagonist and also

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Speaker 1: face the decisions and violence you dished out and as

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Speaker 1: Ellie as at the first half of the game, and

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Speaker 1: how they impacted Abbey. Now how painful it is. And

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Speaker 1: I remember there's a part of the game where you're

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Speaker 1: playing is Abbey and Abby. It's sort of the end

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Speaker 1: an Abbey is kind of legitimately happy for the first

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Speaker 1: time in a long time, and it's so nice to see,

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Speaker 1: and you know Ellie is coming after her, and I

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Speaker 1: remember being scared, like Ellie priest stopped, Please don't ruin.

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Speaker 1: And I will say the second time I played it

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Speaker 1: was not necessarily easier, but less jarring, because if you

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Speaker 1: weren't spoiled, and I wasn't, I had no idea this

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Speaker 1: was coming. And I think that's part of the pain

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Speaker 1: of it, because I was the first time I played it,

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Speaker 1: I thought like surely they're not gonna make me play

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Speaker 1: the whole thing is abby, right, Like it's just gonna

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Speaker 1: be a brief flashback. Nope, I think it's even longer

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Speaker 1: than Ellie's segment or close. So yeah, in the space

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Speaker 1: of a few hours, they were really asking you. The

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Speaker 1: game developers are really asking you to change how you

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Speaker 1: perceived a character, and that is difficult, especially when people

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Speaker 1: do love these characters so much. I still think there's

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Speaker 1: a very sexist reaction happening here. It's legitimate to not

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Speaker 1: like her, but I think like the vitriolic just hate,

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Speaker 1: I mean, sending death threats absurd. We've talked about the

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Speaker 1: days of fandom and pissing someone off when they feel

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Speaker 1: like they have an ownership to something, and yeah, it

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Speaker 1: could lead to death threats, but yeah, I think it's

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Speaker 1: interesting for outside person who has no idea about video

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Speaker 1: games coming into this only knowing that you loved it

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Speaker 1: and you cried about it, and you still cry about

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Speaker 1: it and have this lovely attachment, maybe maybe unhealthy attachment,

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Speaker 1: just kidding to a character. It's definitely was interesting to

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Speaker 1: watch a game become a show, a movie, a story,

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Speaker 1: because that is not what I am used to in

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Speaker 1: any game, because I'm not into video games at all.

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Speaker 1: So it's definitely interesting to see and it definitely has

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Speaker 1: that ring when we're talking about justph love of Gordon

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Speaker 1: Lovett talking about this is the new storytelling and it

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Speaker 1: kind of begins here. This is kind of that level

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Speaker 1: of not only having a story that's told into a perspective,

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Speaker 1: but to actually see the humanity of it. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I think one thing that separates video games from like

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Speaker 1: like a movie is you are playing it like you're

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Speaker 1: investing in this, and you're connecting with these characters that

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Speaker 1: are controlled by you. So there's certain especially in this one,

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Speaker 1: lesson than the first one. Just in the second one,

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Speaker 1: there were times where I was just like, I'm playing

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Speaker 1: as this character. I don't want you to do this,

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Speaker 1: and it's painful, like because then, as you said, also

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Speaker 1: with Alie, like you watch her grow up and to

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Speaker 1: see like what she does in the second one when

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Speaker 1: she's consumed with vengeance and having to connect with that

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Speaker 1: is it's you get emotionally involved. It can be very

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Speaker 1: very painful. And I did want to shout out Listener

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Speaker 1: Cats super fan Cat because she recently played it, and

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Speaker 1: I loved Cat. I loved getting your messages of just

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Speaker 1: all caps rage. And you know you can correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, because you were you hated Abbey. But

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Speaker 1: I think by the end, dude, you've been like, it's

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Speaker 1: not worth it, Ellie, let it go. It was such

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Speaker 1: a light Samantha got to see me just get so

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Speaker 1: tickled by this. I do feel terrible because I'm essentially like,

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Speaker 1: I want you to join me in this pain, which

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Speaker 1: is what happened to your friend. Yes, my friend just

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Speaker 1: left without saying anything. Everybody, she just left. It was like,

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Speaker 1: don't talk to me for a while. And for me,

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Speaker 1: I had to be like, you had to warm me.

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Speaker 1: You gotta you gotta give me. I need those spoilers.

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Speaker 1: I need you to tell me. I need to tell

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Speaker 1: you what I need to leave. I feel like I

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Speaker 1: did you did. There was one you have a good time,

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Speaker 1: the one you forgot about your like ohoops. Sorry. I

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Speaker 1: am working on my Abbey cosplate despite the fact that

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Speaker 1: I've learned no one thinks I should go as her,

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Speaker 1: but I already have an Ellie one, so okay, And yes,

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Speaker 1: I think Ellie may or may not. Pretty high chance

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Speaker 1: she'll be the next fictional character that I focus on.

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Speaker 1: You'll have to listen to find out. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: letting me have this very nerdy time, Samantha and listen.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. We're bringing it. Yes. If you have any

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Speaker 1: fictional characters you'd like to suggest, please send them our

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Speaker 1: way our emails, Stuff Media mom Stuff at I heart

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Speaker 1: media dot com. You can also find us on Instagram

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Speaker 1: at Stuff I've Never Told You or on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: moms to podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I've

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Speaker 1: Never Told You's a production from I Heart Radio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit that I Hear

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