WEBVTT - How Big Tech Is Losing Their Antitrust Trials feat. Jason Kint 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:07.160 Also media, I get on their ass. Somebody's got to 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:21.479 do it. This is better offly and I'm d Zetron. 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:24.640 Today I'm joined by the wonderful Jason Kint, who has 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:29.120 been at the Google ads trial and multiple other FDC 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.080 and DOJ related trials as well. Now, last week we 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:34.360 have wonderful news the Department of Justice won their ant 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:36.720 trust trial against Google saying they have a monopoly of 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.440 our ad tech. This is a wonderful time. And Jason, 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:41.960 of course last year was here for multiple episodes with 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:43.760 us to walk us through the trial. He was there 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:45.440 in person. Jason, how are you doing. 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.080 I'm good, thank you. It's good to see decisions starting 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:50.839 to come in from the courts on what we've been 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:51.400 talking about. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.000 And just to be clear, Jason as the CEO of 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.240 Digital Content Next, I did not say that The Top 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.279 the professional podcast run by a professional, but soll us 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:01.240 through what the verdict was. 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.880 This is the ad tech case against Google that was 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:10.880 in Virginia, to remind the listeners, and it was around 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.800 Google having market power and monopoly power on the buy side, 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.120 the cell side and in the exchange and then illegally 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.600 using that monopoly power. The decision from the judge was 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.920 that mostly in agreement with the plaintiffs, and it was 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:27.959 a big win for the Justice Department, who worked really 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.360 hard on this case. That they have monopoly power in 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.480 the exchange, so where the auctions actually happen, and then 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.680 on the publisher side with the ads server marketplace that 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.880 determines what ads land on the page, and that they 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:46.440 illegally tied those two products together. So the only part 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.040 of the decision, which I think Google's trying to make 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.640 to be a bigger deal than it probably is, is 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.200 that they the judge did not agree that there was 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.480 this market on the buy side the way it was defined. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.880 And so what does that mean in simple in. 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:05.960 Simpler terms, it could affect where remedies go because there 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:10.440 is not a finding that they illegally use monopoly power 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:14.639 on the buy side with advertisers buying ads, and so. 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.640 Just they owned the technology to sell the ads and 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.400 the ways in which it was like, I guess. 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:27.160 Yeah, they still it's true that they have significant influence 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.320 because they have they're the largest player on the buy 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.400 side of ads, so where advertisers are actually buying the ads, 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.560 but not that they She didn't find that they that 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.840 there was a form legal market there that they abused, 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:44.320 and so as we go through remedies discussions, I think 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.799 it's probably it might be less likely that there's some 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.160 sort of structural separation where they need to divest the 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.960 buy side too, although all this stuff's frankly going to 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.080 get tangled together and it will be a whole new 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.480 ball game with remedies, especially with search meedies going on 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:58.000 this week too. 0:02:58.120 --> 0:02:58.639 So go ahead. 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.320 I was going to say, so, what are the remedies 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.359 that the Department of Justice is actually seeking. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.560 Here on the ad tech case? On this case, it's 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:12.040 a structural separation of their roles in the ad tech marketplace, 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.320 and so that was very clear coming into the into 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:15.880 the trial. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.760 So just break it down for me, though, what they 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.280 How would they break up Google in its current form? 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:22.480 Is that even possible? 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.320 I mean yes, absolutely in the in the simplest way 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:33.160 would be forcing Google to divest, which probably would mean 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.160 spinning off to its shareholders rather than selling because it's 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.160 going to be such a valuable asset. 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.560 But actually a separate company. 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.840 A separate company that is the ad server marketplace. Yeah, 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.200 and in the exchange itself too. 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.000 So so dumb guy question for you, what is an 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.360 AD server in this case? Like, how how does this 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:54.320 actually break down? 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.520 It's the you know, it's the technology that sits on 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:01.480 the web pages or on the public sure side, that 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:05.240 actually makes the decision on what ad to serve on 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.000 the page. So when you're browsing a web page or 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.119 on an app, it's what's deciding to serve the ad. 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:16.400 And so Google ran that themselves. They like, they ran 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:18.760 that themselves, So they ended up prioritizing their own ads. 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.320 I'm guessing yes, that's that's the case. And so and 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.880 you know, in the findings, what's really interesting is that 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:30.280 the judge very much agreed with and understood that Google's 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.960 illegal conduct in terms of how they were able to 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:39.799 manipulate auctions in ways that probably favored them and certainly 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.640 harmed the publishers was a part of the finding. 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.279 So, yeah, when they when you say they harmed the publishers, 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.560 is it just the it wasn't possible to compete with 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:51.880 Google on ads because Google both made ads and then 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.160 had the platform that showed the ads to people. 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:56.400 You know, she she hit on a number of things 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:58.120 that I think are gonna be super interesting in the remedies. 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.080 She hit on that Google was able to keep charging 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:06.040 twenty percent of the exchange market, so they could take 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.920 twenty percent of every single transaction, and that that price 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:11.560 never moved from twenty percent for the most part because 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.640 of their monopoly power. But she also hit on all 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.520 the ways that they could manipulate the auctions, which could 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.800 end up being that's a bigger issue when you start 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:22.840 thinking about the private lawsuits they're out there too. You 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.880 get into, you know, literally tens of tens of billions 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:32.840 of dollars of potential harm to publishers from auction manipulations. 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.440 And how were they manipulating your auctions? 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:39.440 Just so we understand, well, the allegations were that and 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.240 this in what she addressed in the opinion were things 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:48.320 like first look and last look where they actually were 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:55.920 able to see the prices ahead of time or at 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.560 the end of the auction and make decisions based on 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.080 the bids that they uniquely were able to. 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:02.480 Do, which is. 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.279 Which is so insane that they were able to like 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.039 they basically set prices like get to everyone to bid 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.640 and then just immediately beat them. Like it's it's shocking, 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:14.600 that's the thing. 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:16.040 It's kind of flagrant. 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.160 So with last Look, I think, you know, I think 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.400 I've hit on two things here. One of the last look, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:23.680 which I think the judge very much understood because I 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.640 can remember her, you know, who was completely new to 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:31.480 this marketplace. She totally got why that was an issue 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.279 when she you know, last look. If you take to 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.040 like a silent auction where you put your little bids 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:39.160 down in an envelope and everybody has kind of their 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.160 secret bid, this would be like Google. Then at the 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.200 end was able to look at everybody's bid, see what 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.120 the highest bid was, and then bid higher if they wanted. 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:49.800 That was last Look, And there were a bunch of 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.279 other things that stemmed from that, and she really seemed 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:54.520 to understand it, which is what is it's you know, 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:55.479 it's nice to. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.000 See so kind of impressive to see a judge just 0:06:58.040 --> 0:06:59.280 pick up an entire subject. 0:06:59.360 --> 0:06:59.960 Matt to like that. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.560 Yeah, I totally agree. You know what, who I'd be 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.800 should be most scared, frankly by this opinion, is if 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.920 I'm Facebook or Meta, who is like counting on this 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.960 idea that the judge in their case doesn't know or 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.080 use social media and TikTok and Instagram, et cetera. It 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.680 tells you once again that a judge that understands the 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.240 law and sits there for four weeks plus all the 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:28.320 pre trial stuff and listens to the evidence can understand 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.760 these issues. And the most important greening I think was 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.960 the Justice Department who really understood the case in a 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:37.320 way that they could dive deep and then explain it 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.640 to the judge. And they succeeded to do that. 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.640 So it kind of reminds me so during some of 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.000 the Google ads trial things you talked about the spaghetti thing, 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:48.960 when they are trying to do this kind of slight 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.640 of hand thing and like, ah, it's too impossible to understand, 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:55.880 it's too complex, and they turned it into that ridiculous thing. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.400 That's right, they did, And yeah, and that tells you 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:02.320 that that is not going to be a successful defense. 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:07.280 Is trying to confuse a judge who has never used it, 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.880 we would understand add tech, that's not going to work. 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.320 The just departments succeeded and explaining it. They kept it simple. 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.400 So what happens next? What are the next moves with 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:29.720 this pub Well. 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:33.520 A reminder, this is what's called the rocket docket. The 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.520 Virginia District Eastern District of Virginia. And so the judge 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:39.840 moved really really fast. That's why they have that name. 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.760 This case was filed in January of twenty twenty three, 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.400 and so we got to a trial, you know, eighteen 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.200 months later, in a decision that took you know, frankly, 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.200 the decision took a lot longer than anyone thought it 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.680 was going to take to come out. People are starting 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:55.160 to get nervous, but you know, it just took time. 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:59.040 And she clearly wrote a really clear opinion and it's 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:04.600 very it's very easy to read through. So that keeping 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.800 in mind, I think she'll probably move fast. They have 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:12.480 a meeting. I think it'll be tomorrow in terms of 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:15.960 what's the schedule going forward for remedies, and so I 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.079 would expect the dates to all be in the next 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:18.640 few months. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:20.240 But what would the remedies be? 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.000 So they would have to break off the three parts, 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.400 like the AD side, they would have to break off 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:26.679 the cell side, Like. 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:28.640 What are they going to have to do in theory? 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:29.800 I realize you're just guessing. 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.400 I'm just guessing. You know that the findings are clear 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.360 enough that there's going to be structural separation that they're 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.920 going to be pushing for you know, how the buyside 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:46.000 gets handled, it's going to be really important because a reminder, 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.240 and this doesn't come out really in the proceedings as much, 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.600 but the ad tech case is downstream from the Search case, 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:57.839 and the arguments were that the reason Google was able 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.080 to dominate the buy side, the cell side, and ad 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.600 tech was because of the monopoly power in search, which 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:08.000 we also have remedies now that started on Monday, and 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:11.480 so these things are going to start to swirl together. 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.240 And when you think about Google having to divest Chrome 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.640 and some of the other remedies within the search case, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.200 it's you know, it's quite possible that there will be 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:24.800 some larger settlement that will be proposed, or a larger 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.599 structural separation that needs to play out between the two decisions. 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.079 So as as you've been hinting at, there was the 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.760 there was the verdict last year that Google did have 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.560 a monopoly over search. How do you think that these 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.400 two things are going to play together? You kind of 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:42.600 got it there, But what are the ways in which 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:43.120 this could go? 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.040 Well, the search decision was not There were two monopolies 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.480 that they were found of abused. One was searched. The 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.840 other was search text ads. So it's the ads that 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:58.160 we see in search, which is Google's largest business, right 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.920 And so. 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.640 Just so I'm clear, you're saying that there's the monopoly 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:06.119 over a search engine and then the advertising onset search. 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:10.719 Engine exactly, and so and that advertising on said sir, 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.959 that advertising on said search engine is is what allowed them, 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.440 according to the JUST Department, to then dominate in the 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.840 ad tech stack. And so I think that's the connection 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.520 point between the cases and will also start to be 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.400 a part of the discussion in the remedies. Both cases 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:34.480 involve network effects. Both cases involve using data to to 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.680 maintain market power and to abuse it. 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.960 Right, So the potential remedies, it sounds like, could be 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.760 almost breaking up Google into multiple different companies. 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:51.640 With this case, the the baby bells, you know, idea 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:55.120 of what happened to AT and T should be much. 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:56.760 More happily than to several listeners. 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:01.560 They divided AT and T up into into pieces and 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.840 so so you know, not just forcing them to vest 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.600 one piece of their business. And so you know, with 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:10.960 the ad tech case, again there's you know, there's settlements 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.520 that can happen, there's appeals that will happen. But the 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.440 argument for you know, should Google have to divest not 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:23.480 just its advertising ad tech business, but also you know, 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.200 other areas of its business, I think becomes much stronger. 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.360 You can imagine Chrome, you can imagine Android, you can 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:30.480 imagine YouTube. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.120 Yeah. Actually, here's a good question for you. 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.160 I I know Chrome, and I'm sure many listeners know 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.760 Chrome as a free browser, not really a business entity. 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.720 How does selling off Chrome meaningfully help with the monopoly 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:46.600 situation Chrome? 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:52.040 You know, Google's entire advertising business is based on targeting 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:56.120 ads based on signals that it in, data that it 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:00.600 gathers from the various ways that it can touch the user. 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:05.800 And so Chrome as a web browser is an incredible 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.960 way to harvest data about how you're browsing the web 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.240 and where you are location, search, et cetera. And so 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.240 you know where Google believes it has permission to use 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:20.280 that data to target ads and train its into its 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.560 machine learning and AI training. That is very valuable. 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:28.160 I did so, wait, so this is perhaps I'm very stupid. 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.880 So Chrome collects data on your browsing habits for every user. 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.480 Now, for every user, there's there's privacy, you know, settings 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:37.120 and all sorts of things you can do. You can 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:43.120 go into incognito mode. But if Google is acting as 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:48.040 your browser, it has access to your browsing history and 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.240 what you're doing on the web, and they can, where 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.360 they believe they have the rights, they can use that data. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:14:01.200 Two help you know, provide further information on both both 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.440 for search but also for you know, what content to 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.040 serve up and what adds to serve up. What they're 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.400 actually doing becomes a bigger question. 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:14.640 Right, So was that established a whole trial not. 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.600 It was in the search in the search case that 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:24.040 but it was more specifically focused on the default settings 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:28.560 for search from the browser, right. And so within Chrome, 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:30.480 if you type in your location bar, you're always going 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.640 to be doing a Google search. That's it's pretty clear 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.800 that how that le then gets passed from the browser 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:36.760 to the search engine. 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.880 Yeah, and if they have billions of users, then they 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.120 can think everyone is searching using Google because they have 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.280 because it's the default. That's so crazy. But the thing 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.640 with Chrome as well, isn't a revenue driver? Is that 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.320 like a direct source of revenue for Google? 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.440 You know, it's if you if you think about the 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.520 search case again, I mean Google is paying Apple, you know, 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:03.280 twenty five billion dollars. Let's say I'm estimating twenty It 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.400 was twenty billion a few years ago, but let's say 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.640 twenty five billion dollars. They were paying to Apple to 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.680 be the default search on Safari and all of the 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:16.560 access points on iOS. So Chrome technically is making revenue 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:21.480 off of those search queries. It's just Google's pain itself, right, 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.720 And so that's the that's the issue. 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.040 Well, the reason I bring that up is one of 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.120 the remedies the idea of selling Chrome off. Why would 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.720 you like, what value would that be in Chrome? If 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:34.480 the whole value of it is to just be kind 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:38.640 of a flume towards Google, like a like a kind 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.360 like a way to like almost like a marketing arm 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.040 of Google. If you sold off Chrome, surely it wouldn't 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:45.600 have as much business value. 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:47.840 It wouldn't have as much business value to Google. The 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:49.600 whole point would be it be an independent business that 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:53.400 would be making decisions. I mean, technically a browser is 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.520 supposed to be a user agent. It's supposed to be 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.800 making decisions for the user. And what would they. 0:15:58.880 --> 0:15:59.720 Value right. 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:06.040 As an autonomous business? Like yeah, because right now is 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.280 it's not like people pay for creat It just doesn't 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.800 feel like that is a practical thing to do, because 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.000 if the whole value proposition of it is that it's 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.840 a free product that makes Google money and it doesn't 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.560 make any money for anyone else, or like it isn't 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:19.400 you know what I mean? 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.360 Yeah, so it could make a decision to point to 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:28.360 you know, a new Amazon search site or sure that 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.840 gets into search, right and so and get paid. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.280 For it, right Yeah. 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.880 I mean it almost feels like this could lead to 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:37.680 I don't want I'm not going to say the death 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:39.840 of Google in the sense that Google will cease to be, 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.480 but the death of modern Google as we know it. 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:48.160 It definitely, you know, all leads towards a very different Google, 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.320 whether it be structurally different or just being hamstrung by 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.000 the appeals of all these cases. 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:59.400 So, I mean, it's they. I cannot think of anyone 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.400 who got more lucky than it being good Friday than 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.040 Google right now, because it's good, we're recording this a 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.840 good Friday. And it's like they didn't like the markets 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.399 are closed, so they didn't immediately get the markets just 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.600 pummeling them as they should because they've lost both now 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.919 they don't like whatever appeals they may do, are not 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.480 going to really, I don't think they're going to stop everything. 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.359 Markets are complex, I would I would hesitate to wonder 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.359 and you know, to predict why the stock did what 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.919 it did yesterday, even when the announcement came out. You know, 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.480 there are some arguments that having to divest, you know, 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.320 divest parts of the business could actually create more value 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:38.280 back to shareholders. 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:40.639 What value would that be? 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.160 Well, typically when you spin things off, you often see 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.760 it or you sell things, often the stock you know, 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.199 can go up because of that. And so you know, 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.280 are the is the some of the parts worth more 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.360 than than the whole? You know, those questions all come 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.639 into play, But that's all. Yeah, that's all to the markets. 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:02.800 And sometimes the markets aren't as smart as we think 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.119 they are, and they take time to understand and impact things. 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.560 Yeah, I agree, and I've seen the same thing with 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:24.840 Core Weeve recently, which is a company that has driven 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:29.199 me insane onto more sane things. Though, So when we're 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:31.320 recording this, it's going to be next week, but the 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.399 beginning of the remedies for the search trial is on 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.040 the twenty first, So what can people expect there? 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:39.560 I don't think there's gonna be as much excitement and 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:43.280 drama as we saw with the actual liabilities trial. I think, 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.159 you know, for the folks that follow the industry closely, 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:51.040 what you should expect is all the AI companies are 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:58.160 involved and so either through depositions, discovery, and some testifying. 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:02.520 So you've got anthropic open AI Microsoft. So when you 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.040 think about the shaping of the AI world going forward, 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.679 you're going to have all the major players. Apple is 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:16.320 Apple tried to actually intervene, and but the judge didn't 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.720 allow them. So they've they've got a strong interest because 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.679 they've got estimated to be I think ten to fifteen 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.120 percent of their profits are tied to their Google deal. 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.160 Right, and so well, because Google pays them to use 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.679 just just for the listeners, so Google pays Apple billions 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.000 have to be the default such, right, That's right, and. 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.679 The you know, the remedies are that they can't do 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.440 that anymore. And so the reason they weren't allowed to intervene, 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.399 according to Judge Meta, was because he didn't see a 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.200 difference in Apple's interests from Google's interests. He basically said, yeah, 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:51.359 you have the same interest. 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.320 Yeah, well, I mean the interest being the Apple needs 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:56.720 Google to keep them and not police so that the 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:58.960 Apple can keep getting a chunk of their revenue. 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.960 That's exactly right. Yeah, so yeah, so Apple cares a lot, 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.320 Microsoft cares a lot, All the big players care. The 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.840 testimonies is going to be X, a lot of experts 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.040 and you know, unless CEO. 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.200 Who will be doing the testimonies. 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.760 It'll be experts from both sides, like so academics that 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:23.320 study these issues. It will be executives from the AI companies. 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:28.960 I think we'll probably hear from Eddie Q again at Apple, 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.480 who's one of their top executives. We'll probably hear from 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:36.280 Suon Dharbashi again from Google as CEO. They're on the list. 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.400 So and so in those two weeks, what's going to happen. 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.120 So it's basically another trial to say how they will 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:43.639 deal with their monopoly in search. 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:46.159 That's right, And well, I mean, I guess one thing 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.800 that's interesting is they're still pretty far apart. So Google's 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:53.439 proposed remedies for itself are basically a slap on the wrist, 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.880 and you know, kind of kind of embarrassing for anybody, 0:20:57.960 --> 0:20:59.520 and you know that studies they think. 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:00.600 So when you said up on the wrist. 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:04.840 Is it like a fine that offering. 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:09.800 They're offering some restrictions on the way they do things, 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:14.680 but nothing that touches on structural separation in any way, 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:18.040 shape or form. Nothing that prevents them from doing an 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:24.000 Apple like deal. And so it's, you know, the bare minimum. 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.760 That the only way I can read it, and I'm 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:31.239 just you know, spitballing here, but is that they're not 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:33.600 giving it an inch right now because they think either 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.720 they can do some sort of transactional deal settlement with 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.960 the current administration or that they can win on appeal, 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.160 and they don't want to show their cards by moving 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.159 the line in any way because it's so far removed 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:48.720 from the decision itself. 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.280 Right, because if they go defensive, then they would cut 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:54.639 they would kind of reveal their hand for when they 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:55.320 go to appeal. 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.720 You're saying that's right, that's right. 0:21:57.560 --> 0:21:59.560 And so is the Department of Justice. The Department of 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:01.800 Justice is saying they should sell off Chrome or is 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:03.440