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Speaker 1: Walkner Chollion's I'm Joe Webbert and I'm Eric Belchernas. Eric,

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Speaker 1: you do some conferences. You recently went to the conference

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Speaker 1: on Emerging Trends in Asset Management, and you seem to

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Speaker 1: think you walked out of there as a really big deal.

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Speaker 2: I walked out of there a lot smarter. A lot

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Speaker 2: of times when I do a conference, I want a panel.

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Speaker 2: I don't go for the whole thing. Yeah, but this

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Speaker 2: one seems special. I got an email from the current

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Speaker 2: director of Investment Management. It's their first conference. They had

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Speaker 2: seen me do a book presentation about a year ago,

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Speaker 2: and they were like, this guy'd be good to give

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Speaker 2: some sort of, you know, alternative take on the ETF market.

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Speaker 2: There were several people there, a lot of lawyers and

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Speaker 2: a lot of people from the SEC.

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Speaker 1: Several people like there are like five people there, and

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Speaker 1: one of them happened to be Gary Ginsler, the head

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Speaker 1: of the SEC.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he spoke. So that's why I went because I

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Speaker 2: wanted to see him speaking some of other people. So

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Speaker 2: I went and just stayed the whole time, and I

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Speaker 2: was at the end, but I soaked up a lot

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to sort of somehow get this onto

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Speaker 2: the podcast, and I found the way to do that

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Speaker 2: because I met Dalia Blass, who used to be the

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Speaker 2: head of Investment Management at the SEC, and I got

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Speaker 2: to meet her at dinner a little bit more and

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Speaker 2: we expanded. I saw her on the panel and some

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Speaker 2: of the things she was talking about our stuff we

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Speaker 2: write about all the time. So I thought we could

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Speaker 2: dive a little bit into what the SEC does some

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Speaker 2: of the current topics that were brought up at this event,

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Speaker 2: because this is the first one, and you know sc'

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Speaker 2: is not usually this open, but they were pretty open.

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Speaker 2: They're trying to, i guess, be a little more available

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Speaker 2: to people and say exactly what they're doing. And I

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Speaker 2: thought it was a good time to check in on

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Speaker 2: all this. And she has a very interesting background and

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Speaker 2: I had seen, you know, and heard of her obviously

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Speaker 2: over the years, but finally got to meet her, and

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Speaker 2: believe it or not, she accepted my invitation to join

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Speaker 2: the podcast.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna speak with Dalia Blass, who is the

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Speaker 1: former SEC Division of Investment Management head. After that, she

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Speaker 1: went to Blackrock where she was head of external Affairs,

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Speaker 1: and now she's a partner at Sullivan and cremwell this

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Speaker 1: time on trillions. Dahlia Bluss, Dahlia, welcome to Trillions.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: So how was Eric received within this conference that he

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Speaker 1: seems to think everybody really cared about what came out

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Speaker 1: of his mouth, How was it really, honestly truthfully?

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Speaker 4: So, Eric had a really good presentation, aside from the

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Speaker 4: fact like a lot of bar charts whatnot. Sorry Eric,

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Speaker 4: I wasn't paying attention to those. But he explained some

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Speaker 4: really complicated principles around ETFs and ETF investing in a

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Speaker 4: way that really resonated, very very plain English, and was

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Speaker 4: talking about the trends in the space that you know,

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Speaker 4: we're really interesting. I think the most interesting trend you

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Speaker 4: talked about, Eric is how much the AUM, the assets

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Speaker 4: of the management for ETFs frankly have like doubled at

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Speaker 4: least since the ETF fruls. So that made me happy

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Speaker 4: to hear it that since you know, I was the

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Speaker 4: director when we did the ETF rules. So great, you know,

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Speaker 4: great stats and it was just really understandable, which was great.

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Speaker 2: And one quick thing on that I found when Gary

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Speaker 2: Genser spoke, he was going through several topics. He'd be

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Speaker 2: like private equity, we're looking at this. We need to

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Speaker 2: be careful about this. Then he'd be like, money market funds,

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Speaker 2: we're looking at this, We're gonna be careful this. It

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Speaker 2: seems like ETFs got a pretty much a pass. He

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Speaker 2: basically said, you know, ETFs, look, they're great. They brought

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Speaker 2: diversity and convenience to investors, and he kind of just

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Speaker 2: went on, So I'll give you some credit for that.

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Speaker 2: I guess the ETF rule maybe cleaned up all the

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Speaker 2: things they were looking at, but it didn't seem like

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Speaker 2: that was on his radar compared to the other things.

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Speaker 4: I think it was a product lineup that was sort

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Speaker 4: of like, this is working really well. It worked really

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Speaker 4: well in March twenty twenty, thank you so much, let's

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Speaker 4: move on to other areas. And it was heartening to

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Speaker 4: hear that, quite frankly, because I think you would recall

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Speaker 4: for years before twenty twenty, it was always that the

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Speaker 4: where's the moment that ETFs will break? Or is the

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Speaker 4: moment ETF's That was always the narrative, So it was

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Speaker 4: it was really heartening to see that this is a

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Speaker 4: product that actually was a pressure valve. In March twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think this was the one. March twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty is when I think all the doubters, the some

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Speaker 2: worry articles kind of were like, okay, they're good because

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Speaker 2: you're right. There was especially fixed income ETFs. There was

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Speaker 2: all this worry about it. And then when the FED

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Speaker 2: stepped in to buy them, I think that really sealed

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Speaker 2: the deal. It's like, well, the Fed's going to use them,

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Speaker 2: they must be okay.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there was a sense of the ETFs we were

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Speaker 4: helping in March twenty twenty. As I said, it was

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Speaker 4: like a pressure valve release sort of, you know, mechanic

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Speaker 4: if you will, And ETFs played that role really well

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Speaker 4: and the government acknowledged that. So it was I agree

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Speaker 4: with you in his speech. It was really interesting how

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Speaker 4: he dealt with ETFs compared to the other pieces that

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Speaker 4: he talked about.

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Speaker 1: So you got to the sec September of twenty seventeen

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Speaker 1: before times how much how much did you know about

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Speaker 1: ETFs when you got there.

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Speaker 3: So that was my.

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Speaker 4: Third tour of duty because we speak military terms in

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Speaker 4: the government, so believe it or not, I was the

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Speaker 4: staff attorney that did the original ETF proposal in was

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Speaker 4: it seven eight and it took a second try to

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Speaker 4: get it to finals. So I've lived ETF, said the

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Speaker 4: Commission since a very long time ago.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, she like tour of duty. I mean

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Speaker 1: when you do that, is that is that for real?

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Speaker 1: Is it like how we talk about it?

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Speaker 4: It is it's your tour of duty in the government,

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Speaker 4: even when you're in civilian service. So that was that

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Speaker 4: was my third tour in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you got into ETS, I feel like if

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Speaker 2: you got into ETS before twenty ten, especially two thousand

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Speaker 2: and eight, you're like an og kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: you're not oog like you know, Bob Tole and those

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Speaker 2: guys and Nate most but second level because the industry

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Speaker 2: was only like four hundred billion back then. Again today's

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Speaker 2: seven trillion.

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Speaker 1: So when you first started to work on ETF stuff

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Speaker 1: at the SEC were what were the concerns that you

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Speaker 1: were wrestling with then?

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Speaker 4: So you know, ETFs, as Eric mentioned, it was a

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Speaker 4: growing space, but nothing nothing compared to where it was

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Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen when we reproposed. A lot of it

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Speaker 4: was still index. Some of the actives were starting the

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Speaker 4: conversations around the non transparent, the veiled ETFs but there

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Speaker 4: were none on the market at all. The questions there

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Speaker 4: were more, and if you look at the old proposal,

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Speaker 4: we tried to enshrine the index ETF versus active ETF.

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Speaker 4: It was just simplistic, if you will, compared to where

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Speaker 4: we ended up after a lot more experience with the

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Speaker 4: product in the marketplace.

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Speaker 2: Let's go into the nineteen forty Act a little bit.

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Speaker 2: This is the main act that governs a lot of

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Speaker 2: the fund's world, the nineteen forty Act. ETFs always needed

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Speaker 2: an exception to the nineteen forty Act. And I guess

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Speaker 2: can you just talk a little bit about how ETFs

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Speaker 2: are structured. I think some people don't realize they're actually

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Speaker 2: they are mutual funds to a degree, they just have

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Speaker 2: this extra exemption.

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Speaker 4: They're open ended funds. Right, So the act, if you will,

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Speaker 4: has two pieces of the closed ends, the open ends,

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Speaker 4: and the open ends. The feature there is it's redeemable,

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Speaker 4: like I give you back my share, you give me

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Speaker 4: back my money. Right, that redeeable and within a very

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Speaker 4: short time period the statute of seven days.

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Speaker 3: In reality it's like a day.

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Speaker 4: The ETF exemptions, which again when you grow in the

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Speaker 4: exemptive application process, and I think that was one of

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Speaker 4: the issues when we did the proposal in eight and

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Speaker 4: definitely when we did the rule making in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 4: that ended up being the final exemptions over time change

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Speaker 4: because the market evolves, So the ETF providers that had

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Speaker 4: the original orders had vastly different orders than the ETF

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Speaker 4: providers that had orders leading up to the final rule.

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Speaker 4: So when you step back and you look at that,

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Speaker 4: it's not equal marketplace. You know, even though like you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to go out and buy an ETF, I'm

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Speaker 4: buying an ETF that in name looks like any other ETF,

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Speaker 4: but in principle could have, you know, vastly different things. So,

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Speaker 4: you know, stepping back and just saying, like, what really

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Speaker 4: is different about ETF appeared to a mutual fund, and

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Speaker 4: what do I need to change? And this is where

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Speaker 4: when we looked at it, we're like, ETF is a

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Speaker 4: redeeable security. We don't need to give an exemption from that.

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Speaker 4: So when you look at the final ETF rule, the

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Speaker 4: exemptions actually are a lot fewer, a lot cleaner than

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Speaker 4: when you look at any exemptive application that predated that rule.

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Speaker 4: And that's the experience you have and that you can

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Speaker 4: do when you're looking at a rule making, which you

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Speaker 4: can't really do with an exemptive order. It's still like

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Speaker 4: kind of bound by a lot of history behind it,

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Speaker 4: if you will a little.

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Speaker 1: Bit of history. We learned that SEC kind of helped

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Speaker 1: create the ETF originally after the Black Monday Report. Do

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Speaker 1: people in the SEC appreciate that, A is there any

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Speaker 1: internal pride about creating this whole sort of new way

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Speaker 1: of investing?

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Speaker 4: So if you're talking about the spiders, which took quite

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Speaker 4: a few more.

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Speaker 1: And a half years, yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The SEC issued this huge telephone book size report that

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Speaker 2: was a postmortive on the eighty seven crash, and in

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Speaker 2: their talk to little bit about well, if there had

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Speaker 2: been a market basking trading instrument that actually had physically

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Speaker 2: backed securities instead of using the futures market in Chicago,

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Speaker 2: this might have not happened.

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Speaker 1: And AMX looked at that and we're like, we can

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I mean, so that's it's not you know,

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Speaker 4: the SEC has actually played a role in innovation. If

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Speaker 4: you look at interval funds by wave example, that was

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Speaker 4: created by the Commission, it was also an SEC creation, right,

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Speaker 4: So and that's that's a really important point, because that's

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Speaker 4: the point sometimes we don't focus on We focus on

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Speaker 4: the SEC being in the administrator of like the forty

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Speaker 4: Act and the other securities laws. We focus on the

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Speaker 4: SEC being the examiner for compliance. We focus on the

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Speaker 4: SEC being the enforcer.

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Speaker 1: That's the fun part.

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Speaker 4: What we don't focus on and perhaps sometimes the SEC

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Speaker 4: and I'm you know, I'm guilty of that, having been

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Speaker 4: you know, inside the building for fourteen years. We don't

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Speaker 4: sometimes focus on on the et the SEC's role in innovation,

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Speaker 4: which which is really really important for a market p

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Speaker 4: as well.

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Speaker 1: So the ETF rule when it came about what was

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Speaker 1: different about that on your third tour of duty than

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Speaker 1: your previous ones and how did you why did you

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Speaker 1: change your mind to get it to where it ended up.

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Speaker 4: So you know that as the ETF rule, if you

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Speaker 4: look at it compared to the one that was proposed

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Speaker 4: in OAIT, you know, significantly different. Like just by way

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Speaker 4: of one example, you don't have the index ETF versus

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Speaker 4: the active ETF.

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Speaker 3: You have the ETF.

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Speaker 4: You don't have an idea that the ETF is is

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Speaker 4: getting an exemption from being a redeeable security. It's acknowledged

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Speaker 4: that it is redeeable security, it's an open end fund.

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Speaker 4: So these were all things that came with lessons learned

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Speaker 4: the Commission. The staff had had vastly more experienced by

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Speaker 4: twenty eighteen compared to ten years earlier, and the product

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Speaker 4: had grown by you know, leaps and bounds. So there

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Speaker 4: that you know, the thinking had matured, the product had matured,

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Speaker 4: and it continues to mature. So it's it's maybe perhaps

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Speaker 4: not so good that it took ten years, But at

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Speaker 4: the same time, I think the rule ended up where

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Speaker 4: it is because of the more information and the more

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Speaker 4: experience of staff and the Commission's had with the product.

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Speaker 2: So let's switch to a topic that came up at

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Speaker 2: the event. This is your panel, and it came up

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Speaker 2: a couple times at the event, which was, Okay, you've

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Speaker 2: got two companies, Blackrock, Vanguard, you could throw State Street

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Speaker 2: in there. We'll call them the big three. They're getting bigger.

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Speaker 2: They sort of more the center focus as it become

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Speaker 2: like a political football because they own so much of

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Speaker 2: these stocks. I think Vanguard owns about eight or nine percent,

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Speaker 2: Blackrock owns about seven percent of almost every stock in America,

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Speaker 2: and so the question is, like how do we deal

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Speaker 2: with this because they're not getting any small They take

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Speaker 2: in most of the money, so they're going to keep

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Speaker 2: getting bigger. And this was a topic that was talked about,

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Speaker 2: and then what was brought up was, well, the market

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Speaker 2: is sort of working this out because they're going to

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Speaker 2: decentralize voting and let their shareholders have a say. I guess,

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Speaker 2: from your vantage point as having worked at Blackrock and

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Speaker 2: the SEC, how do you see this playing out over

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Speaker 2: the next ten years.

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Speaker 4: That's a great question, and you're right. It was a

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Speaker 4: topic in the i AM Emerging Trends conference that I

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Speaker 4: think almost every single panel touched on, which even panels

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Speaker 4: that didn't have that in their title, it seemed to

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Speaker 4: be a topic everybody was interested in talking about. I mean, look,

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Speaker 4: I mean the bottom line is you're here increasingly both

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Speaker 4: policy makers and investors asking for changes in fund voting practices.

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Speaker 4: This is not about like a big two or a

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Speaker 4: Big three, or a Big four, or a Big five

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Speaker 4: or a big six. It's about index funds and how

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Speaker 4: they're managing their voting. And you know, some policy makers

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Speaker 4: have raised questions about the increasing share of index fund

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Speaker 4: voting and how those shares are being cast. And you

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Speaker 4: have investors today, institutional investors who want just as they

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Speaker 4: choose how their investments are being deployed into the market,

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Speaker 4: they also want to say and how their shares are

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Speaker 4: being voted in the market. So when you have that

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Speaker 4: and not getting into merits or demerits of any around that,

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Speaker 4: you look at solutions, because solutions are already starting to come about.

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Speaker 4: You have solutions, I think our characterize in three buckets.

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Speaker 4: You have sort of restrictive voting solutions which would put

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Speaker 4: sort of parameters around what index fund managers would or

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Speaker 4: would not do. You have more transparency solutions which are

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Speaker 4: very limiting, and then you have market based solutions, which

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Speaker 4: I in my opinion at least, I think the market

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Speaker 4: based solutions are the ones that have greater promise. And

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Speaker 4: if we can sort of allow them to evolve and

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Speaker 4: the regulators step in a place of helping the conversations

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Speaker 4: and removing any regulatory barriers, I think you can get

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Speaker 4: a movement in fund voting that would actually read in

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Speaker 4: your to the benefit of all investors.

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Speaker 2: And so to be let's talk about the rules currently

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Speaker 2: in place. A fund cannot own more than ten percent

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Speaker 2: of company. I think that's the rule in the forty Act,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't say anything. But a fun complex is

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Speaker 2: the forty Act came out when typically a fund was

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Speaker 2: all the complex had. Now now in the past, you

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Speaker 2: know whatever, eighty years the fund multiplied and now you

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Speaker 2: have they have three four hundred funds. So there's no rule.

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Speaker 1: And so therefore.

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Speaker 2: Blackrock and Vanguard could really get bigger own more than

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Speaker 2: ten percent. But that's okay because it's really thirty to

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Speaker 2: fifty million investors, individual investors' money if they decentralize, versus

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Speaker 2: people thinking that And this comes up all the time

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Speaker 2: on Twitter, like it looks like Blackrock and Vanguard have

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Speaker 2: like so much power and it's their money, but it's

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Speaker 2: really a bunch of it's millions of individual investors.

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Speaker 4: So a couple of things, and number one, the restrictions

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Speaker 4: on ownership. There is like a myriad of things that

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Speaker 4: play here right of where the restrictions come from from

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Speaker 4: federal law, from state law. There is there is a

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Speaker 4: lot going on, but also sort of and you know,

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Speaker 4: I've heard you say and the conference I heard it

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Speaker 4: repeatedly said, you know, people saying a Blackrock Vanguard State Street.

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Speaker 4: I think it's really important to remember that these are

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Speaker 4: independent entities that invest independently and that you know, invest

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Speaker 4: you know, on the basis of what their clients are

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Speaker 4: choosing for them to invest, So we can't talk about

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Speaker 4: them collectively.

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Speaker 3: That's something that's really important to note.

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Speaker 4: The other piece to note is that this is a

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Speaker 4: very large and very diverse industry. You're talking about industry

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Speaker 4: that's well over one hundred trillion dollars globally, well over

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Speaker 4: like maybe one hundred and ten, one hundred and twenty.

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Speaker 4: So when you look at how much they hold compared

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Speaker 4: to that vast global it just gives you a sense

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Speaker 4: of like how big this industry is.

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Speaker 3: It's very diversified.

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Speaker 4: A lot of players, a lot of choice in this industry,

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Speaker 4: you know that said as I said, like, there are

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Speaker 4: policymakers and investors who want different solutions when it comes

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Speaker 4: to voting, but it's it's important to look at what

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Speaker 4: is happening and also the benefits that these providers have

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Speaker 4: brought to the to the table when it comes to voting,

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Speaker 4: when it comes to the economies of scale they have

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Speaker 4: created for funds. We look at any solutions in this space, and.

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Speaker 2: One thing that was brought up by a lawyer from Virginia.

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Speaker 2: She said something I thought was interesting, which is, there's

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Speaker 2: too much demand for the regulatory supply when it comes

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Speaker 2: to some of these issues like climate like the government

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Speaker 2: really hasn't done a lot and so, but there's all

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Speaker 2: this demand built up to do something and it's been

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Speaker 2: put on the asset managers, who you could argue you

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Speaker 2: are getting too much pressure for what their role is

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Speaker 2: in society because of that lack of progress by the

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Speaker 2: government itself. I thought that was a pretty decent point.

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Speaker 2: That was somebody who was basically trying to say, chill

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Speaker 2: on the asset managers. Okay, they're not going to solve

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Speaker 2: everything here, but if their pressure is huge, and I

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Speaker 2: do think if there was some something done with the laws,

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Speaker 2: this would be there, this wouldn't be as big of

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Speaker 2: a topic. So I do think that's part of a

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Speaker 2: play here.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've been on both sides of that, right, You've

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Speaker 1: been in the government side, and you've been in the

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Speaker 1: private sector, a publicly traded company, Like how do you

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Speaker 1: thread that needle or how do you think the we

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Speaker 1: should be threading that needle?

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Speaker 4: So when you look at asset managers, you know, asset

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Speaker 4: managers are looking at their clients, their clients aret of

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Speaker 4: ones that provide the mandates. For the institutional clients, the

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Speaker 4: mandates can be more complicated, obviously, and but for even

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Speaker 4: for retail retail invests on the basi of funds, and

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Speaker 4: funds have very specific mandates and the client is choosing that.

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Speaker 4: So you know, for for asset managers, the first point

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Speaker 4: that the foundation is client choice. Everything else comes from

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Speaker 4: that choice the client makes. And you have a lot

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Speaker 4: of clients who are very interested in the e SG

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Speaker 4: space and funds that target certain you know, client solutions

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Speaker 4: or certain solutions to very pressing social policies. That is

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Speaker 4: what the client wants, right And so you know, asset

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Speaker 4: managers are just that they're not the asset owners. They

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Speaker 4: are the asset managers when it comes to the government,

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Speaker 4: you know, where you would look for, what you'd look

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Speaker 4: for as a regulated entity, and in this really complex space, frankly,

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Speaker 4: is clarity. What is the roadmap, What can you do,

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Speaker 4: what can you not do? And have that clarity so

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Speaker 4: that you can fulfill your mission, especially here for advisors

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Speaker 4: as a fiduciary to the clients who are entrusting you

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Speaker 4: with their assets.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about ESG related accept the funds themselves. So

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Speaker 2: one of Genser's current priorities, or at least one of

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Speaker 2: his things he's looking at, is ESG ETFs. And I've

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Speaker 2: traveled around, I've worked with our ESG team. There's a

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Speaker 2: huge debate about what you're actually getting with an ESGTF.

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Speaker 2: Some like the biggest one ESGU, which is the one,

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Speaker 2: the biggest one. The holdings look a lot like the

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Speaker 2: S and P. There's a couple of things taken out,

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Speaker 2: but it's very close, just a little tilt away from

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Speaker 2: the index. Then there's ones that go more hardcore. We

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Speaker 2: actually have a scoring system. We try to help investors.

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Speaker 2: But how much is naming an issue with the sec

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Speaker 2: when a product comes in, how much do you need

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Speaker 2: to worry about what it holds and what it does

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Speaker 2: versus just sort of letting a lot of freedom in

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Speaker 2: what you name it and what you hold as long

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Speaker 2: as you spill it out in the perspectives.

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Speaker 4: So like, without getting into any any specific funds or

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Speaker 4: or or fund names, I'm not a portfolio manager, and

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Speaker 4: you don't want me to be.

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Speaker 3: A portfolio manager.

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Speaker 4: When you look at ESG, the term itself, in my opinion,

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Speaker 4: is a problem. It's it's it's very imprecise. It brings

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Speaker 4: together three very broad terms under this one you know

399
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Speaker 4: one one Moniker, if you will, and you know, let

400
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Speaker 4: me illustrate with the most simplistic of examples, and I will,

401
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,400
Speaker 4: I will say very simplistic examples. You could have one

402
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Speaker 4: fund that targets investments in companies that haven't at zero goal.

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Speaker 3: That's an ESG fund.

404
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 4: You can have another fund that avoids since stocks I

405
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Speaker 4: will not invest in alcohol, guns, not that's an ESG fund.

406
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 4: You can have another fund that targets companies that have

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Speaker 4: particular board characteristics.

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Speaker 3: That's also an ESG fund.

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Speaker 4: So if you are an investor and you're interested in

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Speaker 4: funds and interested putting your money in funds that will

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Speaker 4: help you know, with climate solutions, and you just do

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Speaker 4: ESG funds, then what do you do with that? And

413
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,399
Speaker 4: how do you get to that bottom of like I

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Speaker 4: want not just broad umbrella ESG. I want funds that

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Speaker 4: target climate solutions. So there is a problem with the term.

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Speaker 4: And when you look at the SEC rule, and by

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Speaker 4: the way, I just to I think I would know

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Speaker 4: the SEC in trying to bring clarity to the space.

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Speaker 3: That is a good thing.

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Speaker 4: That's important for investors because here you're talking about retail products,

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Speaker 4: so it's really important to bring clarity. But if you're

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Speaker 4: doubling down on this term that is just so broad

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Speaker 4: and includes so much, are you really going to bring

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Speaker 4: clarity to space?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, it's a difficult question because some like advisors may

427
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Speaker 2: want water down ESG. They may want just a slight

428
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Speaker 2: tilt because they don't like tracking her. But an ESG

429
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Speaker 2: advocate would argue, that's not really ESG investing. And so

430
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Speaker 2: same thing happens in smart beta. There's value ETFs that

431
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Speaker 2: are just barely value, and a quant would be like,

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Speaker 2: that's just that's not really value investing. You got to

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Speaker 2: go hardcore. So I don't know, it's tough to police

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Speaker 2: this in general, but I think the names. When I

435
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Speaker 2: wrote my first book, I had the golden rule of

436
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Speaker 2: ETF investing is never totally trust the name. You know,

437
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 2: definitely look at the holdings, no matter what it's called,

438
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 2: or no matter how good of a job it does,

439
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: because sometimes the names don't quite match up well.

440
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 1: Extension of what Eric's asked you, how much does the

441
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 1: SEC look at the ticker itself and care about what's

442
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: in the ticker or what's implied by the ticker.

443
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 4: Maybe, So I want to touch on names and ticker.

444
00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 4: So first names. Names are important, but I would the

445
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 4: hope that we're not buying funds based.

446
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 3: On just the name.

447
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 1: And I hope, yeah, there moment that was kind of

448
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: kind of part of part of what drove that moment.

449
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know that just really hope that's not

450
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 4: where like at least like the look at the fact

451
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 4: sheet right there's And by the way, if you're going

452
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,880
Speaker 4: through a financial professional like an advisor or a broker,

453
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 4: then they're looking beyond the name, and I I you know,

454
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 4: self directed investors are actually ones that believe they have

455
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 4: like a they want to be self directed. They're choosing

456
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 4: to be self directed. They they have facility with the market.

457
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 4: So I don't know if they just look in at

458
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 4: the name. So I wouldn't want us to overplay the

459
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 4: name is important truth in advertising, but it shouldn't be

460
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 4: such a huge focus that we lose sort of track

461
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 4: of like it cannot be the only component on on

462
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 4: the ticker. I mean, I will tell you this, I

463
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 4: mean you could you could spend time I'm arguing with

464
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 4: a fund on a name and then they get an

465
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 4: interesting ticker.

466
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 2: Hold on, I'm gonna jump in. I know, I know

467
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 2: what you're thinking of the blockchain ETF. They didn't want

468
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 2: the word blockchain and the fund and then they were like, okay, fine,

469
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 2: we'll call it the Data Transformational something or another, and

470
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 2: then block is the ticker. We always we always wondered

471
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 2: about that. It's like it's they It's almost like the

472
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 2: industry has this little bit of an ace up their sleeve.

473
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 2: If they really need.

474
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: It, you can do we can either confirm nor deny.

475
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 4: If I'm not thinking of any funny example, I'm just

476
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 4: I'm just.

477
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 2: Saying, how about the how about the marijuana one? MJ

478
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 2: is the ticker, but the name is like emerging agrosphere

479
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 2: or something.

480
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 1: Well, actually, I am curious because you were at the

481
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: SEC when cannabis came up? So how did how did

482
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: the SEC evaluate? All of a sudden I could probably

483
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: do a pun here, but all of a sudden, there

484
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: were a lot of cannabis themed ETFs.

485
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 4: Something that people sort of don't think of on the outside,

486
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 4: which is, you know how the commission is, how it

487
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 4: takes in some of these products. Right, in some cases

488
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 4: the product, everything about it is sort of under a rule,

489
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 4: and so all you're looking at is the registration statement

490
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 4: and making sure that meets the regulatory requirements for disclosure.

491
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 4: In some cases, like the non transparent ETFs by way

492
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 4: of example, they don't fall within the regulatory framework, so

493
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 4: you have the whole exemptive process where the commission can

494
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 4: have a much bigger role in shaping. So when the

495
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 4: cannabis ETFs came in, they were in that disclosure space.

496
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 4: So are you disclosing all the risks? Are you looking

497
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 4: at any legal risks in that regard? So that one

498
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 4: is just a focus of what is it doing? Are

499
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 4: you saying what it's doing? And are you telling the

500
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: world out there what if any potential liability you would

501
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 4: have in frankly, you know, can you sell it given

502
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 4: the laws at the time.

503
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 2: And you know, one thing we've seen over and over

504
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 2: throughout history is Canada seems to like there'll be filings

505
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: in the US for something and the sec will you

506
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: can tell, be wrestling over it, and then Canada will

507
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 2: just launch it like they seem to have liberal regulators.

508
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 2: That's how the first TTF came out. Actually MX thought

509
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 2: of it, but then share the idea with Toronto Stock

510
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 2: Exchange and they launched it in Canada.

511
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: First.

512
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 2: They didn't happen with fixed income, That didn't happen with cannabis.

513
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 2: It's happened over and over. Do you do you care

514
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: what Canada does at all? Like, are you or does

515
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: that give you an incubator to see, Hey, did it

516
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: work up in Canada? Maybe we'll be okay with it.

517
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: So just speaking from my you know, former former hat

518
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 4: you always look at where their regulations and the products

519
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 4: are developing and other jurisdictions, but it's always important to

520
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 4: keep in mind that we are not in other jurisdiction

521
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 4: like the United States jurisdiction. We are the most sophisticated,

522
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 4: most mature market the ETF space, for example, fixed income derivatives.

523
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 4: We are the biggest market. So you can always look

524
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 4: at what's happening somewhere else, but you have to keep

525
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 4: your eyes grounded right here at home because our rules,

526
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 4: our markets are different, and you shouldn't, you know, bar

527
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 4: regulation from other places simply because like you think they

528
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 4: sound good, Like you really have to think about will

529
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 4: it work here? Is it going to help our markets

530
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 4: evolve and develop. Does it lend to market resiliency? Does

531
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 4: it lend itself to innovation but in a way that

532
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 4: works in our markets.

533
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 1: Is there any quiet second guessing that goes on in

534
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: the SEC where it's like, we really should have done

535
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: that differently.

536
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 3: That's a great question, you know.

537
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 4: The SEC, and I will just give us sort of

538
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 4: like a chapeau to the staff and the Commission. They

539
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 4: work really hard to make sure that they answer or

540
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 4: get answers to the questions they have. I think sometimes

541
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 4: that results in perhaps some frustration with the pace of

542
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 4: working with the Commission, But it really is to your

543
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 4: point that you don't want to get to the place

544
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 4: where you like, you know, you know, I miss something

545
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 4: or didn't do something. Hopefully, if that ever happens, it's

546
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 4: something that's pretty minor.

547
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: Well actually related to that. Then, because you've had multiple

548
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: tour of duties and you were under j Clayton during

549
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: your tenure and now Gary Ginsler's there and that's who

550
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: the head was at the conference, I'm assuming you have

551
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: you've had others SEC chairs and previous tours of duties.

552
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: How much did the SEC really change based on who's

553
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 1: in charge.

554
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 3: Great question.

555
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 4: So I started under Chairman Donaldson, so that was I'm

556
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 4: dating myself here right by quite a bit. Look, I mean,

557
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 4: the SEC is an organization of very professional staff, many

558
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 4: of whom are career staffers who have been there for

559
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 4: a very very long time, and by virtue of that,

560
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 4: they are actually experts in in in the markets and

561
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 4: in the areas that they regulate. So yes, I mean

562
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 4: when you get a different chair in the agency, the

563
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 4: chair is the one that puts together the agenda for

564
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 4: the agency, so you get different rule makings. You can

565
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 4: get different flavors here, but I think the piece that

566
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 4: in the rule makings are very public. But there is

567
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 4: so much to the mission of the of the agency

568
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 4: that's done by the career staff day in, day out,

569
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 4: and those those pieces tend to be pretty consistent. But

570
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 4: the one you know, significant difference, well if you will,

571
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 4: is the rule making agenda that is driven by the

572
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 4: Chair of the Commission.

573
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: Can I ask then about how crypto is being talked

574
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: about in your time there, and and then what you

575
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: what you make of what we've seen within the last

576
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: few weeks and months.

577
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 4: So I think I have a pretty public letter around

578
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 4: the you know, bitcoin ETFs.

579
00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 3: I think it wasn't.

580
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 4: I can't remember the date now, but it was pretty

581
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 4: early in my tenure when we published it and that one,

582
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 4: and we also did a request for common on custody

583
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 4: for investment advisors. And what we did there was sort

584
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 4: of put it out there in the marketplace, very transparent.

585
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 4: These are all the issues, so that you understand where

586
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 4: the staff is coming from. So when you're approaching us,

587
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: you know where the questions are, and everybody knows where

588
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 4: the questions are.

589
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: This was a big letter because the filings were piling up.

590
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: This sort of.

591
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: Created a lot, I think a lot more work in

592
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: the prospectuses. I thought they would answer these as best

593
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: they could, and over the next couple of years they

594
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: would have answered all these questions. But I do remember

595
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: that was a huge It was a little bit of

596
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 2: cold water because there's a lot of questions.

597
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 4: We thought it was important to make sure the marketplace

598
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 4: understood all the issues and transparently, so not you know,

599
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 4: if you came in to have a meeting with us,

600
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 4: we would tell you, but it was really important for

601
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 4: everybody else to have that information as well, not just

602
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 4: you in a closed meeting, so everybody was on the

603
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 4: same level playing field. So we were talking earlier about

604
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 4: sort of the touch point to the Commission when products

605
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 4: come in, be it like a rule or an exemption

606
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 4: or disclosure. And what was happening was you were getting

607
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 4: a lot of these registration statements filed when there were

608
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 4: like very significant legal questions, and that was sort of like,

609
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 4: you know, let's just you know, not keep on just

610
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 4: piling on registration statements. Let us answer this legal questions,

611
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 4: think through them and see where we can go. You know,

612
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 4: obviously it's still a there's still lots of questions. Eric

613
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 4: kind and I don't say.

614
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, this is something we've been tracking forever. It's

615
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 2: now eleven years old the horse race. The first one

616
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 2: was filed by Winkelvoss, and there's been seventy eight filings

617
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 2: along the way. We actually tracked this whole big board,

618
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: and you know, most of them have been rejected. But

619
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: now you've got a couple more filing. And the reason,

620
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: as you can understand, is that if you're first with

621
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: a spot bitcoin etf you are an instant millionaire. You

622
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: can probably buy a small island. It's like, again I

623
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: equated the cannonball run. You know, whoever gets to LA

624
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: first and that movie gets all the money. It's a

625
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: first to market thing, and so of course they're just

626
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: going to like roll the dice left and right just

627
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: in case. I don't know, you've shifted your mindset and

628
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: you're like, now's the time. So I feel for the issuers,

629
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: but also feel for the SEC. It's just the It

630
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: is quite the situation though I called a saga. It's

631
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: now eleven years running.

632
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: Did the SEC have a big board that they just

633
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: put it was like, oh, here's another one.

634
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: So you know, a few sort of threads to pull here.

635
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 4: I think having the market having clarity on where to

636
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 4: SEC is right now with respect to these products would

637
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 4: be great. If you look at the safeguarding rule that

638
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: was recently proposed, you know, there seems to be a

639
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 4: more of a shutting the doors as opposed to anything

640
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 4: else in the space. I think in the bitcoin space,

641
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 4: crypto asset space in general, frankly, more regulatory clarity, and

642
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 4: this is not just about the SEC, would be welcome.

643
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 4: I think any player in a space would would agree

644
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 4: probably with what I'm saying. So this is a space

645
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 4: that regulatory certainty and clarity and allowing innovation with the

646
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: proper market and investor protections would be fantastic. And I

647
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 4: don't know that we're getting that. We're just getting a

648
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 4: lot of like, we don't like this, so we will

649
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 4: continue to you know, not allow things to go out.

650
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 3: So that needs some work.

651
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: But in general, if you step back even before before

652
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 4: we even get into this new asset class, ETFs are

653
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 4: still not on the same playing field as just your

654
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 4: typical mutual fund there and you know this right you

655
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 4: talked about it Eric in the in the conference, there

656
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 4: are still, for example, for non transparent class ATF are

657
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 4: still assets that you can't run a non transparent because

658
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 4: it's still it's outside the rule and you still don't

659
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 4: have an exemption for it. So I think for me,

660
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 4: getting ETFs to a place where it's on par with

661
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 4: mutual funds would be a fantastic step forward for a

662
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 4: product that I think has really proved itself in the

663
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 4: marketplace over and over again.

664
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: So that's one.

665
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 4: And then the other thing which I think would be

666
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 4: really helpful for ETFs, especially fixed income ETFs, is that

667
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 4: they should be getting fixed income treatment like not equity

668
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 4: treatment for accounting purposes. I think that would just really

669
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 4: help that product as well. So looking at ETFs to

670
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 4: equalize them with mutual funds in terms of the offerings

671
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 4: because they are open ended funds, but also looking at

672
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 4: the ETF and sort of evolving that product to where

673
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 4: it should be evolved, because if its unique features is

674
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 4: another place. And then going back to crypto and crypto

675
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 4: assets and bitcoin, I'd say regulatory clarity, appreciating that investors

676
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 4: want this asset class and making sure that the you know,

677
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 4: it's being provided in the market in the way that

678
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 4: meets investor protections, market resilience, all these all these things

679
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 4: that you know are I have always helped our markets

680
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 4: and made our markets what they are, like the best

681
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 4: in the world.

682
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: These are all good things.

683
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 2: And when I presented by the way, I had to

684
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: put a cryptoslide in there, and I showed the percent

685
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: premium of ETF spockpick whin ETFs overseas versus gs GBTC,

686
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: which is like a closed end fund, and the premium

687
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 2: is all over the place, right, it's like a broken

688
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 2: you know, that's like a clothes un fund. The ETFs

689
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: did a pretty good job during the past couple of

690
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: years in other markets and My point to them, because

691
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 2: I had their ear, was like trust the et or

692
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 2: have faith in the ETF, maybe even more than you

693
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: have a lack of faith in the crypto market because

694
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: a lot of the market makers are not going to

695
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: fool round with like shady exchanges, and so those exchanges

696
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: may actually up their game to get the money from

697
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: the market makers. And if you could custody it with fidelity,

698
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: you're gonna be way safer than you wouldn't have an

699
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 2: FTX situation because the ETF is transferable. Because this your

700
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: assets would be safe. So there were a couple of

701
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: reasons I thought the ETF again should be But I

702
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: totally understand all these other issues. For sure, it's complicated,

703
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: I mean to say the least, especially after last year.

704
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: So I get it. It's just, you know, it's one

705
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: of these things we cover and I get exhausted, frankly,

706
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: because it's just like goes on and on and on.

707
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: I'm really curious. This is a crazy moment in American culture.

708
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 1: I think even investing has become partisan, and I'm curious

709
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: about that. Having been both on the public side of

710
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: the SEC and then entering the private markets and publicly

711
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: traded companies again, but what is it like to live

712
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: through this moment where investing has become a partisan sport

713
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: and what and what what concerns do you have for

714
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: investors about that?

715
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 3: So it's it's not investing rit large, it's EESG. Yeah, right, and.

716
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 4: I definitely was not expecting the moments as it happened.

717
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 4: Then the very strong views, but.

718
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 3: That's from from both from both sides.

719
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 4: So you know, if you're on one side, you have

720
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 4: stakeholders accusing asset managers of not doing enough to address

721
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 4: climate change or whatever social issue that is important to them,

722
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 4: demanding that they adopt certain investment and stewardship practices to

723
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 4: promote green finance and corporate social responsibility. And that's without

724
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 4: regard to the fact that asset managers have a fiduciary

725
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 4: obligation duty to asset owners.

726
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 3: It's the asset owner that chooses.

727
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 4: Right On the other side of that, you have stakeholders

728
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 4: who accusing asset managers of using other people's money for

729
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 4: social or political goals that are not allowed aligned with

730
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 4: creating shareholder value. So the values versus value and this

731
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 4: is what has led to hundreds of anti and pro

732
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 4: ESG bills across the US. I think this legislative session

733
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 4: for the States was over two hundred and seventy if

734
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 4: I'm right about the number.

735
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 1: So that's like there was never any and then all

736
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: of a sudden this if you look.

737
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 4: At last year versus this year, like the number has

738
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 4: significantly gone up. I'd be curious, like next year what

739
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 4: the what the number would be. But it just really

740
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 4: tells you how really divided we are here in the

741
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 4: US on the state level. Obviously on the federal level

742
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 4: we're also divided. You're hearing you're hearing that in the

743
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 4: Congress and between the different parties. And then you also

744
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 4: if you have if you're a global asset manager, you

745
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 4: actually also have stakeholders in Europe and Asia and the

746
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 4: Middle East, in Latin America. They also have very strong

747
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 4: views about this. So it's really difficult, frankly, to thread

748
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 4: the needle and get to a place where there is

749
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 4: a common understanding on these on these issues.

750
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 1: So where do we go from here?

751
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 4: So, you know, looking at the at the US, I

752
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 4: think a couple of things.

753
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 3: One is the term ESG.

754
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 4: I think if I'm on one side of this debate,

755
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 4: whatever I say, I'm not going to convince you when

756
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 4: you're not going to convince me, and that's just not

757
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 4: going to a good place to be. So we can

758
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 4: keep on using a term that everybody has entrenched around

759
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 4: what it means and think that we are going to

760
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 4: find our way to the to a positive end results.

761
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 4: So the term ESG has become in and of itself

762
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 4: and an issue, and unfortunately the SEC rules would enshrine it,

763
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 4: which would you know, kind of enshine the problem, if

764
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 4: you will. The other part of it is when we

765
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 4: are looking at the federal level, when we are looking

766
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 4: at rules that help with the climate disclosure other disclosures,

767
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 4: just really making sure that we stay true my opinion

768
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 4: to the US system of market regulation, not adopting things,

769
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 4: for example, from Europe. Europe has a very different system

770
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 4: than ours, and that's not to say one is better

771
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 4: and the other.

772
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 3: It's just different.

773
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 4: In Europe, pushing social policy through market regulation is a

774
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 4: very well accepted practice. It's just how it works there.

775
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 3: We don't do that.

776
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 4: The US market system is about full unfair disclosure, it's

777
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 4: about market resiliency, it's about investor protection. It's a very

778
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 4: different system. So staying true to what has worked for

779
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 4: us would be great, and I think that was a

780
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 4: topic that was also discussed pretty at length actually in

781
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 4: the conference that you and I were at.

782
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: Eric, Yeah, ESGQ up a lot, and part of the

783
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: Europe US gap, I think also is here we were

784
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 2: told to we plan for own retirements. We have for

785
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: one case we become fund investors. We don't really assume

786
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 2: the government's going to bail us out or not bail

787
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: us out, but like hook us up for retirement. Maybe we'

788
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: get a little from SOB security in Europe. I don't

789
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: think they're as tuned in. And also in Europe you

790
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 2: don't have any like Amazons and Tesla's that you really

791
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 2: want to capture in your portfolio, so they can screen

792
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 2: stuff out with little less worried they're going to miss

793
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 2: out on returns. So I do think there's a couple

794
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 2: issues in Europe that I agree with you. It's not America.

795
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: This is a different system here, ESG. The term I

796
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: agree it's I say it's got baggage. You know, it's

797
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: got so much baggage it's become a political football. But

798
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: like I was at a panel at inside ETFs two

799
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: months ago and someone was like, we need to have

800
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 2: someone sort of like unify, be like, look, none of

801
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 2: us want polluted rivers, right, we all agree, Like there's

802
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 2: definitely some common ground on ESG and the haters. Maybe

803
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 2: not everything, but the term itself has become like it's

804
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: just you just go. It gets polarized and it's over.

805
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: So I agree with basically both of those points.

806
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: Okay. AI was another topic that came up at the conference,

807
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: And I'm curious, how concerned about AI are you?

808
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 4: I'm I'm I'm a middle aged woman, so AI is

809
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 4: really above my level of understanding. I have a college,

810
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 4: you know, kid who's studying computer science, so hopefully he'll

811
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 4: explain it to me one day.

812
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 3: Look, AI is, it's it's novel.

813
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 4: It's we're seeing it in so many different spaces, you know.

814
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 4: Cher Gensler raised it during the conference. Is something that

815
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 4: you know, he is he is looking at, which I

816
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 4: can understand when it's something that could fundamentally alter pieces

817
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 4: of the market ecosystem.

818
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 3: I think I understand it.

819
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: I mean he said it would could be bigger than

820
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: the internet, right, yeah, he was.

821
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: I was blown away. He was sort of it could

822
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 2: be bigger than the Internet, and he had all kinds

823
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 2: of h had a task for us already going out

824
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 2: looking at it. And this is just when I was

825
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 2: breaking in the press. But I get skeptical of these

826
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: things that get hyped so quickly.

827
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 4: You know, I just let the market do its thing.

828
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 4: But I think for me, it's really interesting when you

829
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 4: have a focus on AI when we are in technology

830
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 4: minus one oh one. In some cases here in asset

831
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 4: management space, we are still sort of talking about whether

832
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 4: we should be allowing E delivery, So we're not even

833
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 4: Internet stage, right, you know, before we talk about a AI,

834
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 4: I think there's some pieces of technological innovation that could

835
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 4: really help investors, For example, if they can get their

836
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 4: fun documents in a user friendly way in an app

837
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 4: ninn PDF by the way, if we can even get

838
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 4: to that. But we are like talking about AI when

839
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 4: we're just honestly, we still are talking PDFs, some paper

840
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 4: tax machines.

841
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: It's like that playoffs. Yeah, let's just handle the regular

842
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: season first.

843
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're not even overtime yet, right, I mean it's minus.

844
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 2: It's week four, all right, let's just playoffs. Let's just

845
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 2: put that back.

846
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: So I'm curious. You have a new new job, Sullivan

847
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: and Cromwell, What are you doing.

848
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 4: I'm a lawyer first and foremost, about twenty five years now,

849
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 4: almost out of law school, and I'm really really excited

850
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 4: about joining and Cromwell because with the roster of incredible

851
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 4: clients and incredible talented attorney, I'll be working with my

852
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 4: partners and and everybody else that makes ab solved and Cromwell,

853
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 4: you know, to be at the front edge of like

854
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 4: cutting innovation, you know, big regutatory questions and helping asset

855
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 4: management through that. That's something that really excites me. So

856
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 4: I'm really looking forward to that.

857
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: So if you never found yourself doing another tour of

858
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: duty at the SEC and I mean head of AI,

859
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: yeah there's one. I mean you have a consultant in

860
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: your in your sound. I think by that point, what

861
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: would make you lose sleep?

862
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 3: That's a great question.

863
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 4: Uh. But by the way, I've done three So that's

864
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 4: more than enough for any for any for any lifetime.

865
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 4: You know, I've never approached it that way. I've always

866
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 4: approached it with this isn't especially I'm just talking about

867
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 4: the industry that i've sort of when I when I regulated,

868
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 4: that was the only industry I regulated. It was always

869
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 4: investment management. It's an industry that prides itself on regulation.

870
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 4: They actually very few people know this, but the nineteen

871
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 4: forty Act, unlike the other federal Securities Acts, the industry

872
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 4: was part of drafting it. They actually sat there with

873
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 4: the Congress and the SEC in drafting it. They asked

874
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 4: in some cases for more onerous provisions and what the

875
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 4: sec was recommending to Congress. So the industry prides itself

876
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: on its history of participating in being part of the

877
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 4: foundation for regulating itself and being a regulator. And frankly,

878
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 4: the industry is what it is today that you know,

879
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 4: it's it's thriving, it's big, it's growing, it's it's the

880
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 4: biggest part of financial services. The asset management industry is

881
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 4: bigger than insurance, bigger than banking. Because of that, you know,

882
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 4: it's just it's you know, I think it's a great industry. So,

883
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 4: you know, for me, I don't always think about the

884
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 4: lowest common denominator. I don't always think that regulation should

885
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 4: be at that level. I think about how to make

886
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 4: sure that we meet those things that make the US

887
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 4: capital markets, you know what they are, and continue thriving,

888
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 4: which is the full fair disclosure, making accessible, making sure

889
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 4: any innovation happens with the parameters of market resiliency, investor protection,

890
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 4: but not losing sight of the fact that we have

891
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 4: a really strong resilient market and an industry that actually

892
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 4: wants to be regulated and is happy being regulated, and

893
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 4: for the most part, they do what's right.

894
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: Okay. Sometimes we asked a question, we think this will

895
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: be good.

896
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: I'm curious what your answer is going.

897
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: To be a favorite ticker other than your own, which

898
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 1: I would say, you know, you've worked a couple of

899
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: places that maybe you shouldn't be able to recommend something from.

900
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 4: So Eric, you mentioned inside ETFs the very first, and

901
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 4: I think may have been unfortunate, the only inside ETFs conference.

902
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 4: Loved the conference by the way that I attended. There

903
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 4: was a presentation where everybody got on stage in a

904
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 4: pink T shirt with the word she on it.

905
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

906
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 2: Tom Lyden led that.

907
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 3: Charge I have that I have that T shirt. Yeah.

908
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 3: So I would say that that's that. That ticker was

909
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 3: pretty good.

910
00:45:58,680 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: Good one.

911
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 2: That's good. That's a good answer and with with a

912
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 2: little narrative memory attached to it. Very good. Some people

913
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,439
Speaker 2: struggle with that question, especially people who work at issue.

914
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 1: She's hard for them to.

915
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 4: But if I could come up with a ticket from

916
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 4: myself many.

917
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 3: That would be good.

918
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: You can keep that to yourself, you know, you might

919
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 1: find yourself in u you know, in the market again sometime.

920
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: All right, Dlia Blast, thanks so much for joining us

921
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: on Trillions. Thank you for having me, Thanks for listening

922
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: to Trillions until next time. You can find us on

923
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or

924
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: wherever else you'd like to listen. We'd love to hear

925
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 1: from you. We're on Twitter. I'm at Joel Webbers Show.

926
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: He's at Eric Baulchness. This episode of Trillions was produced

927
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: by Magnus Hendrickson. Bye