WEBVTT - #508 Maggie Freleng with Eron Shelman 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:04.480 Last year, I spoke to Iron Shellman, who served almost 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.080 thirty one years in prison for a crime he did 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:11.160 not commit. When we spoke, prosecutors in Wayne County, Michigan 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.920 were appealing the court's decision to grant him a new trial, 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:17.799 and Eiron didn't know if he would have to go 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:22.080 back to prison. Well, I have great news. Earlier this month, 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.480 Ereon was officially exonerated. 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:27.880 It's hard to put in the words how I felt. 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.680 It actually took a few days to like, let's start sleeping. 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:37.560 Then I began to come to the realization, Dad, it's 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:42.040 really open. Thirty years later, free. 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.080 And today we're going to re air my conversation with Eiron. 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.120 May fourteenth, nineteen ninety two started as a normal Thursday 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.640 for Iroon Shellman. He called up a few of his 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:02.640 buddies to hang, Andre, Floyd and Antonio. Floyd came buying 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.240 his car, and they all headed out to get haircuts, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.040 pick up some liquor, and bounce around Detroit. 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.720 We had fun, we laughed, we joked. All of those 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:13.759 things happened. 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.760 Eron was driving Floyd's car, with Antonio beside him in 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.880 the passenger seat and Floyd and Andre in the back. 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.160 Suddenly he heard a loud. 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.200 Bang and it startled me to a degree where I 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.600 almost crashed the car. And as I was trying to 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:36.119 stop the car and gain that back, Antonio leaned over 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:40.280 and fell into my lap. I had my dearest friend 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.839 laying in my lap bleeding out the back of his head. 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.840 Antonio was dead. The man who shot him confessed to 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.600 police and gave a full statement. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.760 And he said, you know, I just I just lost it. 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:55.480 I didn't even think about it. I just took the 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.840 gun and I just shot him. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:03.000 But Ieron was arrested, charged and tried for his murder, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.880 and in the end Iran was the one who was convicted. 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:12.080 I'm Iron Shelman. I've served thirty years nine months in 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.800 prison for a first degree murder that I didn't do. 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.720 From LVA for good. This is wrongful conviction with Maggie 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:36.000 Freeling today, Iaron Shellman. Iaron Shellman was born in Detroit 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:37.880 in nineteen seventy two. 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:42.200 Yeah, I grew up on the inner city Detroit, Michigan. 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.640 Mother was a Desiree Salman and my father was a 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:50.880 Theodore Right. My mother did a bunch of stuff early on. 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.040 She worked at at and T for a spell, and 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.239 she worked at Blue Crossing Blue Shield for a spell. 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:59.800 My father was in and out of correctional facilities. 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:02.480 So your mom pretty much raised you by herself. 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.920 Yeah, yeah, with a handful of cousins and family members 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.680 and stuff that you know also participated in the rearing 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:16.440 of me. I have one sibling, she's ten years younger 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.400 than I am. I have a host of cousins. They 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:22.800 all think that they're my brothers and sisters. 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.040 How would you describe Aeron overall? 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.040 I would say, if I had to give it words, 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:32.320 gentle giant. 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.880 Right, this is Eeron's cousin, Sonya Shulman. She's nine years 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:37.760 younger than Aaron. 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:43.240 Sometimes when you see people who are larger in stature, 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.760 you have a sense of intimidation, and that has never 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.600 been that with him because he's always had a very 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.000 soft voice, and so his words always came out really 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.800 soft and graceful and kind. But when it was time 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:01.880 to be protective, you could hear change, Right, don't do that, 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:03.840 put that down. You're gonna get in trouble, you know, 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.480 those sorts of things. Growing up, it was just like that. 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.520 So because we have a small yet close knit family, 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.600 everyone operated in a way that felt in a protective. 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:16.000 Measure sort of way. 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.880 So the older cousins or you know, of that nature 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.960 hovered over all of the younger ones such as myself, 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.760 in a way that felt very brotherly and sisterly. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.039 Yeah. My grandfather, you know, he would give us a 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.440 few dollars every weekend and we would all pile into 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:38.960 city bus and catch the bus downtown and watch kom 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:40.600 Fu movies when we were children. 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:42.880 What movies do you remember, Oh. 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.600 We watched all of all of the Komfu movies at 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.880 the Fox. You know, we were kids, like late seventies, 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.240 early eighties. It was fans of the guys with the 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:53.960 rings firstly. 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.680 That's who it was, right, Okay. 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:57.040 Yes, there you go. 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.560 Although his extended family was always there for him, Iron's 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.200 home life was unstable. 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.400 You know, again, I'm pretty young, but you know, all 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.240 signs showed that, you know, it was drug abuse and 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.520 those types of things that were happening in the home. 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.320 Aron spent less and less time at home, more and 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.719 more time out in the streets. Before long he was 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:25.840 starting to get in trouble. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.400 You know, typical story as as a household deteriorates and 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:36.320 you know, it's no real real person that's making you 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:38.760 do this or making you do that. You know, so 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.160 you tend to start running with people that you should. 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:45.359 And so what was that in your neighborhood? What was 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.680 going on? It was? 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.479 It was a lot. It just was. It was, you know, 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.960 guys that did this and guys that did that, drug dealing, 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:58.080 you know, breaking in houses. I was away a lot, 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:05.120 you know, juve our delinquency, youth homes, training schools and such. 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.039 How much of your childhood do you think you spent 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.480 in some sort of facility or incarceration. 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:18.160 I'm fifty one years old, and last I tried to 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.800 do the math. I think I may have spent maybe 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.000 fourteen years free. 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.040 Do you think growing up with your dad in prison 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.120 had any effective on how you kind of chose to 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:31.839 live your life? 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.240 Must have, right, Like you know, like my grandfather, he 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.680 chipped in, he did the best he could. He worked 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:40.840 a lot and such, but he come by every day 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.400 and check on me and spend a few minutes with 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.240 me a day. But for a child like me, and 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.440 you know that was going through all that type of 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:53.720 family drama, you kind of want a strong individual. You 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.480 long for a father figure right to teach you, you know, 0:06:58.680 --> 0:06:59.880 what not to do and what to do. 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.000 So you have these friends, you're kind of living this 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.960 little bit of street life getting into some trouble. Can 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.520 you tell me about your relationship with Andre Rice and 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:11.400 Antonio Knight? 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.680 Both of them was real good friends of mine personally, 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.000 Like we grew up as like really really good friends 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:24.600 at those ages. At the thirteen and fourteen, I lived 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:29.520 on a street with Antonio from the age of twelve thirteen. 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.640 We caught the same bus to school for like many years, 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.400 I spent I spent nights over their house. I ate 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.080 at their house, you know, when my mother was kind 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:44.600 of going through her things, you know, and we weren't 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.680 guaranteed to have a home cooked meal there. I would 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:51.400 go over Antonio's house and his mother Darlene, and his 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.120 kind grandmother and them. They would feed me all the time. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:55.720 What was Antonio like? 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:00.600 Early on? He was like us pretty much, you know, 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.440 kid trying to find his way right, trying to figure 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.280 out which side of the tracks he's going to fall on, 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:12.000 you know. And as I would come back to the neighborhood, 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.920 as I was released from this facility, or I would 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.800 get a break from that Foster home. I seen the 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:23.160 change in it that it shifts. It was never really wholesome, 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:28.280 but it stopped being that and more street. 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.160 And then tell me about Andre. You said you were 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:32.160 really close with him. 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.880 Yeah, it was kind of like a kid brother. You know. 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.800 We would go out and dance and like a little 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:42.520 like partying and such. You know, nothing really crazy, but 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:44.560 you know, he went to school every day and he 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:49.280 had a strong mother influence wouldn't allow him. Yeah. Yeah, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.560 she was really you know, big with church and you know, 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:54.760 and that type of stuff, so she really wouldn't let 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:56.559 him veer off too much. 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.920 In May of nineteen ninety two, Ieron was nineteen years old. 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.600 He was still hanging out with Andre and Antonio, who 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:10.960 also went by the name Tone, as well as some 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:15.360 of the other neighborhood guys. One Thursday morning, Aaron decided 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.600 he needed a haircut and Tone wanted to come along. 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.280 Eron called up his friend Ken, who ran a barber 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.120 shop at his house, and Ken said, sure, come on by. 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.439 So we called Floyd, which was my buddy you know 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:31.880 what I'm saying, and he would drive us. So he 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.720 pulled up and picked me up and we started to 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.240 accumulate more and more people Ieron. 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.640 Floyd, Pennington and Andre headed over to Antonio's to pick 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.800 him up, and Eeron went inside to get him. While 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.200 he waited, he chatted with Tone's grandmother and little sister. 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.640 It was really just me being goofy with the kid's sister, 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.280 and grandmother said something or another to me. You know, 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.920 y'all be careful, y'all, you know, stay out of trouble. 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.560 You know. She was big on that type. 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.200 Of The four of them went over to Ken's and 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.560 got haircuts, then drove around in Floyd's dodge for most 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:10.080 of the day. 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:14.239 I don't recall who was sitting where first, but I 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:18.400 drove because I didn't drink as much as them. Throughout 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:23.320 the day, there was shifting in the seats. We made 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.840 a couple of stops, including like liquor stores, the barbershop, 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:28.880 something to. 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.880 Eat, and they did at one point stop at Montese 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:39.320 Bell's house, so that's Aaron's cousin. They stopped there and 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:40.920 chatted for a couple of minutes. 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.240 This is Rachel Wolf, Aaron's post conviction attorney. 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.520 Montes said at this time, like hey, guys, like what 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.200 are you doing? Like where are you going, And that's 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:54.360 when Aaron apparently said, we're you take Tone out or 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.120 we're going to take Tone out. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.240 At some point that day, Andre and Antonio they have 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.840 gotten into some kind of disagreement. But if there was 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.240 anything wrong between them, Eron was unaware of it. 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.400 I was in and out of a car, going in 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.880 and out of cousins house, talked to him back in, 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:17.280 so I don't know the full between those two. When 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:21.679 we traveled back up towards Antonio's house, it was kind 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.520 of quiet from Andre, but everyone else was still in 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.760 the mold that they were in. We laughed, we joked, 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.480 you know, all of those things happened. 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.800 Eron was driving with Antonio in the passenger seat beside him, 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.280 Floyd was sitting in the back seat behind Tone, and 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:44.160 Andre was sitting behind Iron. Suddenly, out of nowhere, Ieron 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.320 heard a loud bang. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.280 And it startled me to a degree where I almost 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.760 crashed the car. And as I was trying to stop 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:02.040 the car and gain that back, Antonio leaned over and 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.680 fell into my lap. I looked back, I seen the 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:11.079 faces of Floyd and Andre, and I had my my 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.480 my dearest friend laying in my lap, bleeding out the 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:15.280 back of his head. 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.400 Do you remember if anyone was like, what the hell 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.160 just happened? Like what did you do? 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.199 I don't know if anyone really screamed out. I really don't. 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:28.960 I think it was what now, right? I think I 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.920 think that that's that's the emotion. What now? Like you 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.640 know what to do? What what happens? Now? Right? 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:38.079 So what did you do? 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:44.640 I drove? I stopped here. I stopped there, and before 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:50.480 long we were in an alley, uh like maybe two 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.640 three blocks away. They told me to stop. The gun 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:55.719 was still in his hand, you know, it was pull 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.760 over here. Stopped the car. 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.080 Andre and Floyd pulled Antonio's body out of the car 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:08.520 and left it there in the alley, and then Eron drove. 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:13.960 I was just so scared, you know. I didn't want 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.320 to be the one that was labeled to snitch or 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:17.760 any of that. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.440 So they found the body in the alleyway. I believe 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.880 somebody who ran a shop nearby in the area found 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.840 the body in the alley and called the police. 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.959 An autopsy showed that Tone had died of a single 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.839 gunshot wound to the back of his head. Almost immediately, 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.000 the Detroit police were out looking for the killer, and 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.800 a number of suspects were rounded up for questioning. 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:51.360 I do know that they arrested at least three people 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:56.560 who were, you know, maybe witnesses. They suspected that these 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.960 three individuals, as Montes Bell and then this other woman, 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.559 Barbara Meyer and her boyfriend William Logan were all arrested, 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.120 charged with the homicide, and then held for many hours 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:12.960 before they ultimately gave statements. I don't know exactly how 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:18.079 Iron and Andre initially became suspects, but I can wager 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:23.320 I guess that they spoke to Antonio Knight's grandmother, who 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.720 ultimately did come in and testify at trial, because she 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.520 had seen these four men in the car together hours 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:30.880 before Tone died. 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.080 A few weeks later, Andre Rice was arrested as well. 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.360 Uron was still laying low. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.280 You know, I'm nineteen years old. I'm ducking in the 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.320 dodge and I only really came out once I found 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:51.320 out that they had arrested Andre, so I kind of 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.080 let my guard down after that. I'm like, oh, okay, 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:57.960 police arrested it, like you know, it's over with, right, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:14:59.800 But it wasn't. 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.880 The statements from Montez, William and Barbara along with Tone's 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.880 grandmother had placed Iran in the car when Tone was shot, 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.080 and the investigation was now focused on him and Andre. 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.160 Before long, the police found him at his cousin's house 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:18.520 and took him down to the station. 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.120 I didn't speak to him. They took me back to 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.880 the sale for hours. When I come back down, they 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:30.160 had a confession from Andre Sweat. He told me he 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.840 showed me a paper with a signature on it, said 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.720 he had everything he needed. And I said, well, if 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.320 you got everything you needed, you got a confession, surely 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:43.040 I can go, right. Was it the case? They said 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:47.400 they needed me to put some nails in the coffin 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:53.240 of him and to pull Floyd into it. I said, 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:54.120 I don't know nothing. 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:59.280 On June thirteenth, nineteen ninety two, Andre Rice confessed to 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.440 shooting in to He told the police that Aeron and 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.560 Floyd had no idea it was going to happen, and 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.440 they had nothing to do with it. 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:14.160 What Andrea says is that Tone had been threatening him 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.480 and threatening his family, and so Andre says he had 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.440 been drinking and he said he was sitting there and thinking, 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.280 this guy's going to hurt my family. It's totally unprovoked. 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.640 You know, I just lost it. I didn't even think 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:30.040 about it. I just took the gun and I just 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:30.520 shot him. 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:37.120 So you stay quiet, he confesses, How do you think 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:38.880 you got involved in this? 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.200 I was tied to it either way, right, So I 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.240 just assumed that since I didn't help anybody, and I 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:52.360 didn't help the investigation, I would be thrown in somehow, right, 0:16:52.920 --> 0:17:02.560 That's what I was thinking. I don't know, you know, 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:04.439 at the time, I didn't. I surely didn't think that 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.800 it would garner me a first degree murder conviction and 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:22.680 send me away for thirty plus years. 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.640 You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. You can 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.720 listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.200 one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:48.520 for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. On June seventeenth, nineteen 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.880 ninety two, Ivon Shellman and Andre Rice were both charged 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:57.840 with first degree premeditated murder. Their trial started six months later. 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.560 The trial was actually pretty short. It ran over the 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.720 course of five days December seventeenth through the twenty third 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:15.679 of nineteen ninety two. They were tried together, Andre and Ieron, 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:17.360 but they had separate juries. 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.119 The judge was Vera Massey Jones and the prosecutor was 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:27.160 Lisa Lindsay. Ireon's defense attorney was Paul Curtis and Andre's 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:29.159 attorney was Jeffrey Edison. 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.480 He was partners with Paul Curtis. They were law partners. 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:36.960 They were operating out of the same office. There is 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:38.960 a potential conflict of interest there. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.840 But the trial moved forward with very little to go on. 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.000 There was no physical evidence for the state to present. 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:50.400 They never found a murder weapon in the case. According 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:54.800 to the police, they never found the car. Floyd went 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.479 away with the car. The car was never seen again, 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.120 so they couldn't fingerprint it or do anything like that. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:00.199 That. 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:05.440 The prosecution's few witnesses included a medical examiner and one 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:06.919 of the police officers. 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:11.879 And then there was Antonio. Knight's grandmother came in and 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:16.560 testified about what had happened when they came to pick Antonio. 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:16.640 Up that day. 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:21.360 In what she saw, there were three people in the vehicle, 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.600 well for if you count Antonio himself. One of them 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.920 was never charged, never arrested, never interviewed. 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:30.840 That was Floyd Pennington, the owner of the car. 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.680 He was the one white man in the car, which 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:39.560 I also find interesting. You know, so their only evidence 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.399 that Iran was guilty was this testimony of his cousin. 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.000 Montes Bell was the state star witness. He was the 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.679 one who said Iran had told him they were going 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.480 to take tone out. 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:00.560 He was the one that was going to make it difference, 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.920 and his testimony was incredible. There were lots of ways 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:09.240 to impeach him and discredit him, just using conflicts in 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.600 his own testimony, conflicts between what he said at trial 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:15.280 and at the exam, the fact that he had charges pending, 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.200 the fact that he was facing the homicide charge initially, 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:22.120 so he just the trial attorney really just focused on 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:23.240 cross examination. 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:26.680 Did the police convince anyone to testify against him that 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:28.080 maybe made something up? 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:29.239 I don't know. 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:33.400 I will say that one of the investigators on the case, 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.960 her name was Barbara Simon, has been alleged in several 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:46.280 other cases of pressuring witnesses eliciting fabricated testimony. So it's possible, 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.959 and especially knowing what we do about the Detroit Police 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:55.280 department at that time, it's possible. Barbara Meyer said straight 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:58.560 up that she gave them seven different statements and they 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.439 would not release her until she gave the one that 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.440 they wanted her to and she said, at that point, 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:06.360 I would have done anything to get out of there. 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:08.720 It's one of the worst places I've ever been, and 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:09.840 I hear that a lot. 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:12.800 Now. 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.800 To understand what happened next, it's important to know how 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.760 the trial was conducted. Ivon and Andre were co defendants 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:23.520 and they were tried together before the same judge and prosecutor. 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:28.360 But they had two separate defense attorneys and two separate juries. 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.160 So the way they do that is, you know, they'll 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:35.680 do partial testimony from one witness. They'll present the things 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.359 in front of each jury while the other jury is 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:42.639 out of the courtroom, and anything that pertains to both cases, 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:44.880 they'll have both juries in the courtroom. It's something they 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:46.840 do a lot to save time. 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.520 This means that potentially each jury could get a very 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:54.720 different picture of this same set of events. 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.399 Andre didn't testify at the trial, but they had a 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.680 police office or take the stand and read his initial 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.040 statement into the record. This is the very first version 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.680 of events he told police. You know, he went in there, 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:12.520 they interviewed him. He said, we were all in the car. 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:15.560 I shot him. The other two people in the car 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:18.280 with me didn't know anything about it. I didn't even 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:23.040 think about it. I just acted right. That same evidence 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:26.800 was not presented to mister Shelman's jury, ever. 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:31.080 He was convicted. First, he was charged with first degree 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:35.000 murder and felony firearm. They reduced his to second degree 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.479 murder with felony firearm, and they just left me at 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:39.480 first degree murder. 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:43.680 And in this case, Andre I believe got twenty five 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:46.720 to sixty years was his sentence. 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.040 I just I'm just still wondering how that happened, because 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.199 it isn't it true that Andre also said like you 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:58.520 were not involved, you didn't know anything. 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:04.960 That information was never read in my trial. Jury never 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:08.679 heard that. The jury only heard that I was a 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:12.520 bad kid and I went picked my buddy up and 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:16.080 something terrible happened to him. If you only hear a 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.919 certain side, it's all you can make your opinion. And 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:21.400 so I don't blame him at all. 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:28.119 So, because the jury had not heard the evidence that 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.840 allowed Andre Rice's jury to say, oh, there was no 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:36.679 premeditation and deliberation, Ieron Shulman's jury did not have any idea. 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:41.080 They didn't hear Andre's statement. So if they believed that 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:45.560 he was involved, even in the slightest they believed they 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:48.199 were looking at something that was the first degree homicide. 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:51.239 That's the charge that was put to them, right, and 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:57.360 they found him guilty of it. In Michigan, if you're 0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:01.959 convicted of homicide, either as the principle or as an 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.639 aider and a better there is a mandatory life without 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:09.119 parole sentence, and you're going to die. You're going to 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:11.560 die in prison. It means life in Michigan. 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.040 So Rice got a lesser sentence. 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:15.760 I know that you explained a little bit of that 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:20.080 because of the testimony that was not allowed into Eeron's trial. 0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:23.359 But that was not a Brady violation, correct, It was 0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:25.639 not hidden. The defense attorney just did not. 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:29.240 The defense attorney knew about it, you know, and it's 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:32.879 I don't know, you know. We interviewed Paul Curtis, We 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:36.320 called him at the evidentiary hearing to explain his reasoning, 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.440