WEBVTT - IQ Tests are (Kind of) Dumb 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:27.840 Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.080 fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:34.080 tuning in. Let's hear for the Man, the myth, the legend, 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:41.559 our super producer, Max Benney Williams not with Benne like 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:47.040 Jean Benet, similar to do don't have the relationship. Well, 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.600 we've got a h we've got kind of a dark 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:54.160 turn here. Uh. This episode is following on the heels 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.840 of our recent episode. We're quite proud, proud of the title. 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.720 Did lead lead to the fall of the Roman Empire? Right? 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:10.759 Yes, lead lead, lead lead, you know, maybe probably not spoiler. 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.240 Alert, Yeah, contributed to Maybe you'll have to check out 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.520 the episode, folks. That is none other than the legendary 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.679 mister Noel Brown. Hello, it's you, Ben, Is it you? 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.959 I think it's you. We are all, we are all vast. 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:26.960 We could take multitudes for tax purposes. That call me 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.600 Ben Bullen. He from the United States. We are bro. 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:32.760 I gotta tell you I made the mistake of briefly 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.399 dating a gen Z person. And she told me when 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.640 I said I contained multitude, said that is such a 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:39.800 millennial thing to say. 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.280 And I was really triggered by this. Has she not 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:47.040 read Whitman? The relationship did not go well? Unclear. 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.280 My whole thing is I really like there's a Bob 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:54.080 Dylan song called I Contain Multitudes, and obviously the Whitman 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:56.280 is what he was referencing. But it just felt like 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.200 such a dismissive thing to say. And she's the kind 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:01.640 of person that would say like Bedrod all the time. So, 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.080 you know, potato potato, To each their own. I wish 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:05.520 her well. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:13.799 Dismissive dismissiveness is arguably, depending upon who you read, dismissiveness 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:21.040 is a sign of insecurity intelligence that do that? 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:21.239 Do? 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:28.399 Boy? 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:31.880 Oh boy, Ben, We're talking about a thing today related 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.760 to the Lead Leading with Lead episode in that there 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.320 purports to be a way that our society claims you 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:45.120 can measure one's intelligence, and it's those two golden letters 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.160 that people love throwing around. You know who loves thrown 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.360 around a lot? Are President as a diss low IQ individual? 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:52.639 Right? 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:57.919 Right? Uh, he's got some news coming his way, my guy. Well, 0:02:58.000 --> 0:02:59.440 that metric, it turns. 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:04.280 Out not the best. We Actually I got a little 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:09.640 heated up during our Led Lead Roman Empire Fall episode 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.840 A little hit up, as they would say in Tennessee, 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.720 about the concept of IQ tests, and we had to 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.400 change the title to make this a little bit more 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:25.160 family friendly. Maybe the best way to begin, folks is 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.760 check out our Roman Empire episode. I think we did 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.240 an all right job, and then answer us this. We'll 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:36.640 do it first on air, fellow ridiculous historians, Noel Max, 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.200 have you guys ever taken an IQ test? No? 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:46.320 I did recently take one of those Enneagram tests that 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:48.960 measures you know, your feelings or whatever. 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:50.480 I NFJ. 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.080 I think I hold on, I've actually got a note 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.080 for you here. Oh no, I'm getting the beach ball 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.000 of death on my notes app So we'll come back 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.040 to that. But this was even like a step above 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.000 the regular Enneagram thing called like I think it was 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:09.800 called Youngian something or other. It was some kind of 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.680 Jungian thing. And it was interesting because it wasn't you know, 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:15.400 it wasn't like taking a test. It was like having 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.160 a conversation, and then the person that was administering it 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.000 was able to make all these notes. If I'm not mistaken, Ben, Yeah, 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.080 the old IQ test is much more of a by 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:29.200 the numbers, less interpretive kind of you know, bubbling in 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.200 the circles test. 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.520 Yeah, it's a weird thing. Max. Let's hear from you. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:36.799 You ever took one of those tests? 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.520 But if I did, I can't remember. Maybe it had 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.120 that little impact on me that I can't remember it, 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:43.520 but I can't say I have. 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.000 It makes sense, right what we're saying when we say 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:52.919 I haven't taken an IQ test. The odds are most 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.240 certainly that you did if you grew up in the 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.520 United States, even if it was not explicitly cold an 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:03.160 IQ test. We have a lot of capstone things, standardized 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.800 test for every child in school, and if you ever 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.480 aspire to go to college or university, you take something 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.680 that is the kissing cousin of the IQ test. Things 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.680 we call the SAT or the ACT. 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.440 See that's funny, Ben, because when I was thinking about 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:22.600 whether or not I'd taken an IQ test, my mind 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:24.640 immediately went to Scantron World. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:31.279 Yes, wouldn't that be a really boring amusement park? Scadorcantron World. 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:38.440 I maybeet me, but I really want to go because 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.520 you get your results at the end of the amusement park. 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:43.039 What is their roller. 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:46.120 Coaster looks like sort of the like the nerdy equivalent 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:48.640 of getting that picture you know where you're making the 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.479 O face when you're on the coaster or et saying 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.560 your name at the end of the et ride at Universal. 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:56.440 What would the roller coaster be? You know what it 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:01.240 could be. It could just be roller coaster of emotion. 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:05.680 Because kids, they're not a huge fan of these high 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.960 stress tests, and we know that. I think we've discussed 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.360 not on this episode, but maybe a conversation you and 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.600 I were having leading up to this episode, and maybe 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.560 a brief mention in the Rome episode about how even 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:21.719 some of the smartest people in the world notoriously don't 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.599 test well or specifically crumble. 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:30.400 Under the pressure of these timed high stress tests. Yeah, 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.640 I've got some stories to share. Also, maybe maybe we 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.359 can make a solid argument in this episode that instead 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.359 of a roller coaster of stats at your sat amusement park, 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.920 you're a q amusement park, you should have the roller 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.520 coaster of love. Courtesy of Red Hot Chili Peppers and 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:55.520 Anthony Keatis. Yeah, Dustry for that, right, Well, their version 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:57.120 is a banger. Who does the original? 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.880 I remember their version from Beavis and butt Head do 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:04.320 America soundtrack? Right, it's a lot of Fun of Love 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.799 and the Originals by the Ohio Players from nineteen hundred 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.880 and seventy five. Funk hit the top the US charts 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.680 in nineteen seventy six. Known for its energetic rhythm, the 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.600 song famously is an urban legend claiming a murder scream 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.080 was recorded in the background. 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.280 Oh fascinating. We have to get into that. We might 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:24.720 be an episode for another. 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.760 Time, maybe the very least a bullet point on a 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:32.320 on a listical episode about weird music urban legends that 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:33.800 we should. I'm just going to drop in on the 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.240 spot here right now invite our buddy Jordan Runtalk to 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:36.800 join us for. 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.960 Oh I miss you, Jordan. I hope you're tuning into 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.520 the show. I love that guy. I'll text him after this. 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:48.720 Another kind of thing, another sort of standardized test that's 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:50.560 going to be familiar to a lot of us in 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:55.040 the United States, is something called the ASVAB, the Armed 0:07:55.240 --> 0:08:00.320 Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. This is what determines whether get 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.400 to work in Intel or whether you know you work 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.240 in the elevators, et cetera, et cetera. All jobs are 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:11.000 worthwhile the idea of placement test does make sense. They 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.840 can help set school children up for success. They can 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.040 help you get the right college or university. And of 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:22.640 course Uncle Sam loves the ASVAB because it helps you 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.239 figure out what a new soldier is especially talented at. 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.880 It's it's weird because going back to what you said, No, 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.640 all these things that we could loosely group as IQ 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:40.679 or intelligent quotient tests, they are attempting to understand not 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:46.720 your roat memorization abilities, but your cognitive abilities like reasoning, 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:53.600 problem solving, verbal comprehension, you know. And it's never The 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.560 tricky thing is it's not the same as say a 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.240 firearms test. Right. In a fire arms test, you are 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:05.440 measured by how accurate you are getting close to, say 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.720 a bullseye right with certain with certain weaponry. But with this, 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:17.880 your intelligence quotient attempts to quantify your level of smarts 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:22.000 in comparison to other people who are taking the test 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.000 or have taken the test in the past. So it's 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:30.080 a comparison thing, not an absolute measurement. Got it. So 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.120 you're part of the sample size of home that only 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:37.040 includes those who have taken the test before you or 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.160 with you. Sticky wicket right, A little bit, right, a 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.679 little bit, and well we'll talk a good bit about 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:48.200 why no one believes. Of course, I hope not. Anyway, 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:49.360 we all have things to learn. 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.360 That you're perfect, you're not spoiler alert, but I think 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.480 it's really important, you know, in order to human properly, 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.760 to know the things you don't know, and know that 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.920 it's probably a smart idea to continue to learn new things. 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:08.400 Humans still can't agree, however, on what that knowledge base 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.520 could perhaps be quantified. As you know, it's a combination 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:17.360 of the things you know, intuition skills, certain skills that 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:21.640 you might have, and that all bundled together we might 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:23.760 refer to as intelligence. 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.520 Right or competence or the ability to function in a 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:33.880 given situation. But as we said, no one thinks IQ 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:38.959 tests are perfect, even the biggest proponents or champions of it. 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:44.640 The issue is, can we really quantify all that stuff 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:49.040 that you just named, Noel? Can we accurately represent that 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:54.160 in something as boiled down as a three digit number? 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.040 How did we get here? Why do so many people 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:02.680 think IQ tests are you know, kind of malarkey? To 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.720 understand that, we have to understand how these things came 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.240 to be. And this is where we begin by introducing 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.840 everybody to a guy named Alfred Bennet. Now, when I 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:17.480 was research associate for this, I want to confess to 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:22.400 you guys, transparency's key to me. I accidentally wrote Alfred 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:26.480 Bidet quite frequently in this. It was just a slip 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:27.959 of the slip of the fingers. 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:28.520 Mm hmm. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.320 Was it an autocorrect thing such as you've written Bedet 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.520 so many times as automatic changing to it or was 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.839 it just a mind autocorrect. 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.240 I just really liked our Beidet episodes well, and we 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:43.320 are all admittedly Bidet boys over here. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.319 And if that isn't the name of a fun punk 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.800 rock band, then it absolutely should. 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:53.439 Be tattoos we should get. I'm good with my Toto 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.839 wash lit. I know you guys should get it. You 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.240 guys should get Bidet bros. Right like where the old 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:04.880 tramp stamp bros. Right at the right at your lombard. 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:06.680 I like it in theory, Ben, I don't think I 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.360 like it. I don't think you should do it. No, 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:10.120 I don't think you should do it. I think Jonathan 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:15.040 Stricklan should get it. Yeah right on. Oh geez, So 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.560 this guy Alfred Bennet b I n E T not 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:25.800 Bidey and no relation to the Ramses, right. Yeah, so 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.760 far as we know, he is born as Alfredo Benetti. 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:33.240 It was one of those americanizations, right, It must have 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.920 been gotta sound a little more, a little more native born. 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.480 It's common when people, you know, immigrated in those days, 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:45.000 especially in France, right in the mid eighteen hundreds. He's 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.800 born on July eighth, eighteen fifty seven, so his posthumous 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:53.440 birthday is coming up pretty soon. His dad was a doctor, 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:58.000 his mom was an artist. His parents separated when he 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:02.319 was very young, and he was raised primarily by his mother. 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.960 She moved with him to Paris later in life so 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:11.000 that he could attend law school. And guys, here's the thing. 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.480 He did get his qualifications as bona fides. He was 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.240 able to practice law in eighteen seventy eight. But he 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:22.320 looked around at the legal landscape of France in the 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.439 late eighteen hundreds and he said, no, I'm going to 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.560 be like my dad. I'm going to go into medicine. 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.840 And then soon after that he said, no, I'm going 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:37.160 to be different. I'm going to get into hypnosis. Cool. 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:41.920 A very reasonable progression there, a reasonable reasonable trajectory. 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:47.960 Yeah, so he's been several years becoming a sort of 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:55.480 a autodidact. He is teaching himself. He reads extensively. He 0:13:55.559 --> 0:14:00.640 loves work by people like Alexander Bain, Charles Darwin from earlier, 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:07.480 John Stewart Mill. Eventually, no, he publishes his first article, 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:12.719 his first professional article. It is on hypnosis. He publishes 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:17.600 this in eighteen eighty and everyone hates it. 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:22.640 Yeah, people were not fond of this piece of writing 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:24.240 in eighteen eighty three. 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:29.360 However, he weathered the critiques and the poor reviews. 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.000 The throwing of the tomatoes, and he took a position 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:34.800 in the I'm gonna try my best here and make 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:43.800 Casey Pegrim proud that you got Sepatrier, Sepatrier cept Salpetriere. 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:45.720 There we go. Hospital. 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:47.800 I was about to say hospital, but that would be 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:52.640 a bridge too far. In Paris, it was a place 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:57.240 that allowed him to pursue research that focused on hypnosis. 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.240 He was greatly influenced by a guy by the name 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:05.080 of Charco and he published four articles during his time 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.760 there on hypnosis and the concept of animal magnetism, which 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:11.480 is another one that's a little bit of a sticky wicked. 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.160 I mean, I just my dog just growled when I 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:14.479 said animal magnetism. 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.320 What do you know that I don't know, buddy. Yeah, 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:24.000 we're referring to Jean Martin Charco. And this guy becomes 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:28.720 a mentor to our buddy Alfred. His work shines brightly, 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:34.880 but briefly because other peers in the world of hypnotism 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:40.880 or animal magnetism. Oh, Paula, can't hear me? Okay, he 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:46.120 sends you always seems to look in the past. I 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:50.240 love the vibe. So this guy is sort of his 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:56.160 mentor figure, right Charcot and Charco gets in a lot 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.200 of trouble because other scientists look at his work and say, 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.720 I don't know, man, this feels less like science. This 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:07.240 feels more like you sort of doing your own thing 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:12.240 and calling your opinions science. It's a massive, massive scandal. 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:16.360 It's a massive downfall, and unfortunately our buddy Al Bennet, 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:21.400 his reputation takes a big hit as well. It's my association. Yeah, yeah, 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.680 he caught some strays. As we would say on the 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:25.640 Breakfast Club. 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.000 Well we would if we were ever invited back, or 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.040 you know, for the first time, you know, Ben, This 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.320 makes me think of a recent discussion that we had 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:36.360 on our sister pod Stuff they Don't Want you to Know, 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:41.600 with the incredible host of the podcast series Mind Games, 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.880 about sort of the history of hypnosis, more specifically the 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:50.120 history of a controversial technique. What was the main thing 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:55.440 that we talked about with Zoe Lacaz Thank you, Yeah. 0:16:55.680 --> 0:17:03.680 Focuses on the controversial group of tactics called neuro linguistic programming. 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:08.120 Right, and also the types of controversial forms of hypnosis 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.520 like memory regression therapy and this idea that it can 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.320 cause false memories to be quote unquote recalled. So it 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.000 makes sense to me that in the early days of 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:23.280 this kind of attempt to scienceify this practice, that it 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:25.119 might have been met with some backlash. 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.520 Oh right, And this stuff happens well after Bena has passed. 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:36.600 At this point where his mentor has an academic downfall 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:42.040 and gets hit with Look, his career is basically over. 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.080 Ben A has to pivot, as they would say in 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.919 corporate America. So he decides he is going to abandon 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:57.199 hypnosis in favor of studying psychological development. This is his 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.720 big switch, This is the decision that will later change 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.399 the world. And he starts. There's no other way to 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.440 say it. Folks. He starts experimenting on his own children. 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:13.680 Mmmmm, yeah, that's not great. I mean, we just talked 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:15.600 about that as well, Ben on stuff that I want 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:19.600 you to know in talking about the fine line between 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:25.159 scientific advancements in the concept of magic, and we've certainly 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.800 talked about folks that have gone all mad scientists about 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.280 things and in the pursuit of progress, but doing some 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:37.159 pretty horrific things in that pursuit, like human experimentation or 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:41.040 you know, self experimentation. Not great, definitely better than you know, 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:46.760 experimenting on someone who is not consenting. Not really sure 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.960 what the relationship was with the daughter. Maybe she was 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.639 into it, but still kind of doesn't matter to be honest. 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:56.480 Yeah, yeah, it's here's the thing. It's eighteen eighty four. 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:02.080 Bene Mary's his longtime spouse or a Balbiani, and together 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.800 they have two daughters, Madeleine and Alice. Madeleine's born in 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.520 eighteen eighty five, just a year after they get married. 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.439 Alice is born in eighteen eighty seven. And so this 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:17.000 guy is not to be clear, he's not drugging his children. 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.840 He starts to study how they think, or how they 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:27.320 think about thinking. Their metacognitive processes. And this means that 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.679 he is the weirdest beat me here, Max, He is 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.760 the weirdest guddamn dad ever. He's not hurting the kids, 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.879 but he's asking them very strange questions, and he's making 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:45.960 them do little experiments that inform his research on suggestibility 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:52.200 and attention. Now he starts saying, how do we measure intelligence? Right? 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:57.439 How do personalities or how does lineage affect intelligence? And 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.560 he publishes so much stuff at this point. If we 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.720 fast forward, it's eighteen ninety two, he gets a doctorate 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:12.480 in natural sciences from suborne and in eighteen ninety one, Bro, 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.359 I'm not sure how to say this, he kind of 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:26.679 gets a job at the Laboratory of Physiological Psychology. It 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:31.920 is a prestigious place, but we're saying kind of because 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:37.360 when he got the job it was an unpaid position. 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:39.920 He worked for a year and didn't see a dime 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:40.480 or a fronk. 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.320 Am I even do too much trouble for doing this 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.520 stuff with his daughters, because I mean it doesn't seem. 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.240 Like it's particularly. 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:53.119 You know, invasive of just studying suggestibility and attention. But 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.160 I guess when I immediately when I hear about someone experimenting 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.000 quote unquote on their family members, it does make me 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.320 kind of you know, ra eyebrows a little bit. 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.080 It's cringe. And we're right to be skeptical because even 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:10.479 if you're just asking the questions, you are never not 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.760 going to also be their parent, you know what I mean. 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.080 That's true, that's true. That can also lead to just 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:18.960 you know, it's just not good science, right. 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:24.480 Not great science. Yeah, agreed, And everybody in France disagreed 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.639 with our conclusion because they said, this guy is great. 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.080 He works for a year and we don't have to 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:36.080 pay him. Let's make him the director of this laboratory. 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:42.120 And there he meets his longtime collaborator, Theodore Simone. Theodore 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:47.800 Simone works with Bene to do doctoral research under Benet's supervision. 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:53.760 Bene does some things that are unequivocably very good things. 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:58.400 He starts the first French journal of psychology in eighteen 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:03.159 ninety five, and at first he is a huge fanboy 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:07.879 of a guy named Francis Golton. Francis Golton earlier worked 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:13.120 in developing what we will call standardized test and his 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:18.520 thing was, we can build out a rubric to measure 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:25.240 individual differences in a population. So Benee adopted this approach 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:28.640 in his work. He later, I think it's nineteen oh three, 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:33.879 he publishes an article that says, hey, guys, have you 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:40.119 ever asked your daughters off putting strange questions. 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:44.960 All the time? What have you ever dadd before? Kind 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.760 of comes with the territory, So Ben, shall we begin 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:49.800 ZiT tests? 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:58.120 Ah Wonderbach. Also he got a lot more love for 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:02.359 this nineteen oh three article I did about his hypnosis stuff. 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:04.880 He was getting there, man, he was doing the work. 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:08.320 You know. They were like Al's back, als back so hard. 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:13.840 And he and his collaborator, as we're alluding to, they 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:17.080 started working on a test that was meant to help 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:20.560 the kids, just like Wu Tang. They said, if children 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:24.040 have problems in learning, we got to figure out how 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.560 to assist those kids. This is what leads to the 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:31.960 thing we call the benez Simone Intelligence Scale, and it 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:33.480 was a government project. 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:36.040 Yeah, but I thought I'd maybe take a minute real 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:38.720 quick here, just as an aside to talk about something 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:40.760 that you and I talked about off Mike about this 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.600 subject in terms of helping kids to learn and this 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:48.720 knowledge that kids learned differently and that no two kids 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.280 are the same. I do appreciate where Bene is coming 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:56.720 from here specifically because my kid is given certain dispensations 0:23:57.200 --> 0:24:00.840 through the public school system here in Atlanta, allowing them 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:02.760 for a little bit more time on tests. And it's 0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:04.520 not something that you'd go so far as to maybe 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.480 call a learning disability, but it is something that after 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:11.359 an assessment, it is determined that a little bit of 0:24:11.400 --> 0:24:14.360 extra time is helpful. And I just really appreciate all 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:17.240 the admins and teachers and you know, folks in the 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:19.639 school system that advocated for that kind of stuff because 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:22.640 to your point earlier, Ben Or we talked about some 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:26.720 really smart people just don't test well and it can 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.400 be a real source of anxiety if someone already has, 0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:34.160 like say, just generalized anxiety. So just kudos to the teachers, 0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:37.320 as we always says, and you know, this is a 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:38.920 it's been a very positive experience. 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:44.200 That's awesome. Yeah, that's not what's happening in early nineteen hundreds. 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:47.119 Not yet, definitely, not yet, but just again speaking to 0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:51.080 the idea of you know, help helping the kids. 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.840 Yeah, the French government it's nineteen oh four, okay, and 0:24:54.960 --> 0:25:01.280 the French government says we need to identify special needs 0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:05.520 in children. Specifically, the Minister of Public Instruction over in 0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:09.800 Paris says, we have to study existing tests, or we 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:13.080 have to create our own tests so that we can 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:18.879 ensure intellectually disabled children their words, not ours, can receive 0:25:19.119 --> 0:25:22.880 an adequate education as best as the state can do. 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:26.800 The minister at the time, or the ministry, i should say, 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:33.119 is also concerned that children who have normal intelligence are 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:37.879 being placed in classes for disabled children, not because of 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:42.000 their cognitive abilities, but because of behavior problems. And so 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:46.720 they look around France and they say, oh, former creepy 0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:51.600 hypnotist fanboy, Alfred Binet, you're the guy who should be 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:57.440 in charge of all of this. And he took the reins, 0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:01.280 he took it went off run And by this point 0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:05.480 I got to tell you, I think Bene is sort 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:09.960 of a mercurial dude. You go from the law to medicine, 0:26:10.000 --> 0:26:12.199 to hypnosis to psychology. 0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:16.119 That's funny, Ben, because it's like, when I think of mercurial, 0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:18.159 I guess I sometimes think of somebody who might be 0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:21.119 like a jack of all trades or sort of a polymath. 0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:23.920