1 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: The first time that I ever thought that I needed 2 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: a lawyer. I was six years old the summer of 3 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one. There was all this hooplah going on 4 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: in my house because I was the youngest of five girls, 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: and I was gonna be starting school, and oh, everybody 6 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: just thought it was the greatest thing. 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 2: We got to go buy new clothes. We talked all. 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: About you're gonna meet friends, You're gonna do all these 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: fabulous things, and my four sisters had built this thing up. 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: I basically thought I was going to Disney World. Well, 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: when I got there, I was basically told to be 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: quiet and sit down, and then we lined up to 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: get water, and we lined up to go to the bathroom. 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: I thought it was barbaric and heinous. There were no snacks, 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: there were no friends that I've grown up with and 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: had been able to play all day long, while my 17 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: sisters went off to this horrible place called school. Well, 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: when I got home that night, I told everybody, it's 19 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: the worst experience I've ever had. 20 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: I don't know why y'all think it's great. 21 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: I'm now questioned why my mother is even a teacher, 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: Why are you involved. 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: In this thing? It's pitiful. 24 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: Well, my mother looks at me and she says, don't worry, 25 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: it'll be better tomorrow. 26 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: And I said, I got to go back. 27 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: I was stunned that I was going to have to 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: go back to that place and experience this again. And 29 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: my sister Sheila being funny because I said, I ain't going. 30 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: I don't want any part of it. And Sheila said, well, 31 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 1: if you don't go, a truant officer will come get 32 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: you and they'll send you to reform school. Now I 33 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: was like, hold on a minute, you're telling me because 34 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to go to school. The jail is 35 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: a school, and I would have to live at school. Well, 36 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about the Eighth Amendment at that point, 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: but if I had, I would have known that is 38 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: cruel and unusual. I wished I had known Joshua Swiffer 39 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: back then. He is quick, he is powerful in his belief. 40 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: He will fight for you, and if I had been 41 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: able to call him in nineteen seventy one, my life 42 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: might have been very different. 43 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: You know him from Court TV. 44 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: He's with my good friend and a member of my 45 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: Zone seven, Ashley Wilcock. 46 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 2: He's a Georgia boy. 47 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: He's from East Cobb, graduated from the Walker School. He 48 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: graduated from Georgia State Law School in two thousand and two, 49 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: and he says that I quote, without any honors, but 50 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: great memories from Mont Trial and Mood Court and some 51 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: really good friends. 52 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: As someone spent most of my childhood in the hills 53 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 3: of northwest Georgia northeast Alabama. It just I'm getting goosebumps 54 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 3: because I love love hearing that, sir, beautiful Southern accent. 55 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: I just do. And I love the fact that you 56 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 3: love the law, love it, and you've got passion for 57 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 3: And that's what makes the truth throughout crime to me 58 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 3: and really our nation function better is the people that 59 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 3: really do have a passion for the law. Because we 60 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 3: may not have the perfect system, but compared to the 61 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 3: rest of the world, we're really doing it better than 62 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: anyone else. And the great thing about our criminal justice 63 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 3: system is it's aspirational. It's always getting better because citizens 64 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 3: and professionals, people like you, people like the listeners are 65 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 3: involved and they pay attention and they like to learn 66 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 3: about it because this is the hall monitors of life. 67 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 3: If life is going to school, the law and order 68 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 3: of the criminal justice system. That's the principle, that's the 69 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 3: hall monitors, and we've got to know how it operates, 70 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: and we've got to make sure it operates well. And 71 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: it's people that really love the law that make the 72 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 3: law work well. And so I just love your podcast. 73 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 3: I love what you're doing. I love the fact that 74 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: your audience is involved and knowledgeable, because that's really they 75 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 3: are countries that can't happen. 76 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: And you know, you're given a legal education today. You 77 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: were a public defender, then you went into private practice, 78 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: but there's so much more about you, and you and 79 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: I have a friend in common, and he said about 80 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: you that Josh has a national network of top tier 81 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: legal partners that is unmatched. And to me, I tell 82 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: my own children, the only reason Barack Obama is more 83 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: powerful than your daddy is because who he can get 84 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: on the phone. 85 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: So true, and it really is that network of people. 86 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 3: I'm one person. I'm one lawyer. I try to be 87 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 3: really good, but I'm not great at everything. I've got 88 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: strengths and weaknesses like anybody else. Bring those other sets 89 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 3: of eyes to a case, your case will always get better. 90 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 3: I don't care if you're prosecutor. I don't care if 91 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 3: your defense attorney, I don't care what role your plane 92 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 3: as a litigator. Get those extra eyes on because those 93 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 3: perspectives matter. We're wetted to our rose colored glasses and 94 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 3: I want to see things the way that I want 95 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 3: to see them because it's my world and I run it. 96 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 3: But that's not the way a jury's going to look 97 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 3: at it. That's not the way another person's gonna look 98 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: at it. And the ability to jump into another set 99 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 3: of eyes and look at your situation, that's how you 100 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 3: discover the strongest arguments, the arguments that you may not 101 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 3: realize are really important to someone who matters. Because there's 102 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 3: twelve people in that box with twelve different lifestyles, twelve 103 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 3: different histories, and what their takeaway is from hearing certain facts, 104 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 3: it's going to be different than yours. You and I 105 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 3: can listen to the same story, and I'm gonna get 106 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: moved and attached to it, because, man, when you're telling 107 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 3: that story reminds me of that time my dad did 108 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 3: this and my cousin did that, and I was there 109 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 3: to somebody else, it's going to be Oh, that brings 110 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 3: me back to camp. That perspective, that emotional attachment that's real, 111 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 3: and that's where you're really communicating. And that's what trial 112 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 3: lawyering and criminal defense is really about, is communications. It's 113 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 3: not arguing. One of my favorite teachers, and I love 114 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 3: going to class. I love learning. The best part about 115 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 3: this career in many ways, is that you get paid 116 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 3: to go learn from really smart people. That's just awesome. 117 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 3: And you learn these quotes, you hear these anecdotes, you 118 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: learn the tools. One of them, you're if you're explaining, 119 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 3: you're losing. If you're arguing, you're losing. And that doesn't 120 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 3: make sense because you know we're lawyers. We're supposed to 121 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 3: go out there and you argue. Right, Well, think about 122 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 3: it yourself. When's the last time someone argued at you 123 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 3: and you changed your mind? When's the last time it's 124 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 3: not how you change the mind of a listener, whether 125 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 3: that's a juror whether that's opposing counsel, whether that's some 126 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 3: in your life. You get up in their face and say, hey, 127 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 3: and this is why I'm right, and I can I'm 128 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: right because I'm smart, I'm right because I went to school. 129 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 3: Bull bull blah blah blah blah, and you're shutting the 130 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 3: ears and closing the eyes of people, a huge number 131 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: of people. When you approach case like that, what you 132 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 3: really need to do is get people to hear and 133 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: listen and understand by showing them how and why you 134 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 3: believe the way you do, and show them your experiences 135 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 3: by putting your thoughts and words into action and movement, 136 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 3: and showing them physically, emotionally, audio, verbally how you feel 137 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: and why you feel that way. Only then, and by 138 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 3: being vulnerable, you open yourself up for their honest critique 139 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 3: and their honest entry into your feelings and your emotions. 140 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 3: And when you get open and vulnerable like that in 141 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 3: a position like court, there's very little anybody can do 142 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: but care and pay attention and delve into your questions, 143 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 3: and you aren't answered because everyone wants to fix something, 144 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: especially in court. Jurors want to make right, Jirs want 145 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 3: to fix the problem. Jurors want to do justice, so 146 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 3: to judges, and very off so does opposing counsel. And 147 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: when you talk about really you know seventh layer of 148 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 3: the onion deep if you can get your opposing counsel 149 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 3: to understand why you're so firm in your position, why 150 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 3: your understanding might be more accurate than their understanding of 151 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 3: what happened. That takes the needle, puts a rope around 152 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 3: it and yanks it. 153 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: I told y'all he was smart. But I'm going to 154 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: tell you the advice you just heard works for marriage, 155 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: works for raising children, works for whatever your job might be. 156 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to just be court, but just allow 157 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: somebody to hear you and you just say, hey, this 158 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: is my position, this is why, in a peaceful manner. 159 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: Because let me tell you something else about Josh that 160 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: I absolutely adore. He has a tremendous work life balance, 161 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 1: which is something I preach all the time. And if 162 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: I had to describe him in three words, it's courts, 163 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: cats and camaraderie. You're happy, You're happy at work, you're 164 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: happy at home, you're happy going to and from. 165 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 3: And I wasn't for a long time because of kind 166 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 3: of the existential struggle that you get when you get 167 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 3: into this biz, because really, and you know this, our 168 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 3: currency is so often trauma. Our currency is suffering and 169 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: victims and awful things happening to good people, and you 170 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 3: work with it all day. And I carried that burden 171 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 3: wrongfully the way a lot of other lawyers do, and 172 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: I fell into the same trap that millions of lawyers 173 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 3: and the professionals and regular people have too, drank way 174 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 3: too much with who a bunch of lawyers and judges 175 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 3: that I wanted to be just like. And then I 176 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: realized having watched what happened to them. And one of 177 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: my best friends was a judge who eventually ended up 178 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 3: getting kicked off the bench. They tried to save him, 179 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 3: every bent over backward still ruined his whole life. And 180 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 3: one of my great joys is sharing my story as 181 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 3: someone that quit drinking in two thousand and eight. I'm 182 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 3: not very good at it, you know. I couldn't control 183 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 3: it was in the first drink. It's the fact that 184 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 3: you can't put down the seventh and then you're pouring 185 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 3: remooth over ice three o'clock in the morning. And it 186 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: didn't make me a bad person, which is key in 187 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 3: criminal defense. Do not judge a person on their worst moments. 188 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: You shall judge them on their totality of their life. 189 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 3: And that showed me the door to moving past that 190 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 3: and kicking alcohol out of my life. Because it's great 191 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 3: for some people, it ain't great for me, and focusing 192 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 3: on that happiness because I believe you manifest and create 193 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 3: what you pay attention to and what you think about 194 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 3: and what you put out into the world. And even 195 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 3: though people like you and I have this currency of 196 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: awful loss and trauma, you can do it in a 197 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 3: positive and upward facing manner. You can deal with the 198 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 3: worst stuff life has and while respecting the pain and 199 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 3: the trauma. You can always do it in a pathway 200 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 3: or on a pathway where you're looking up rather than down, 201 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 3: where you're glorifying what we have been given as people 202 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: in creation that we can go and we can attach 203 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: to and create beauty, love, art and healing spontaneous, spontaneously 204 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 3: on the fly, in little, big ways, in big ways. 205 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 3: And we can do that through our practice. And when 206 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 3: you really dedicate yourself to that, be that vulnerable representative 207 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 3: and advocate, because that's really my role. I'm there to 208 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 3: advocate for someone I didn't make the terrible decision they did. 209 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: But when you care and you can show that genuine 210 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: caring the great quote from Jerry Spence, caring is contagious. 211 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 3: You're gonna hear it from me all the time because 212 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 3: you can't look away from caring. If I'm caring about 213 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 3: my client, if I'm caring about that person sitting in 214 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 3: a jumpsuit next to me, who is not sleeping in 215 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 3: a comfy bed, who is not eating at a nice restaurant, 216 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: I can care for them. Only then are other people 217 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 3: gonna feel comfortable caring for them? And those are the 218 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: people that I need. I need a DA to care, 219 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 3: I need a judge to care. I need Jersey to care. 220 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: A great example of that is what happened to me yesterday. 221 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 3: I have a teenage, late teenage, young adult that had 222 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,599 Speaker 3: a tough upbringing, got sent to his dad and his 223 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 3: adult and is struggling through what we oftentimes see with 224 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 3: mental health diagnoses that it kind of formulates in your 225 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 3: late teen age early twenty years as your brain solidifies, 226 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: and that's where some of this stuff really manifests. And 227 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 3: the kid made some indefensibly bad choices. And the issue 228 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 3: sentencing yesterday was are we going to send him down 229 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 3: the road to prison or can we come up with 230 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 3: some alternatives? And it was emotional and I thought we 231 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 3: were just in hand. We were going to walk him 232 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 3: out into a bunch of treatment. It was going to 233 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 3: be great. DA was on our side, DA was one 234 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 3: hundred percent pro mental health treatment. Understood that this kid's 235 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 3: actions weren't reflective on his life as a whole. We 236 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 3: had a very involved family. It was everything you want 237 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 3: to do, a non negotiated plea where the judge goes, yeah, 238 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 3: let's watch the kid real carefully, but not put him 239 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 3: into prison. And because of one or two very specific factors, 240 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 3: this judge, who's a great judge, very considerate, said she 241 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 3: hated do it, but she had to send him down 242 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: for six months, and in six months, you know, he 243 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 3: actually would get to the state system, not county time. 244 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 3: And I'll be blunting a long time. I haven't just 245 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 3: openly cried. And I'm a you know, two hundred and 246 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 3: seventy five pound, you know, lawyer sitting there, bald and 247 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 3: in a suit, and the tears come out, and they're 248 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 3: not fake tears. I genuinely feel for this kid, and 249 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 3: I feel like I've betrayed and lost for him because 250 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 3: I couldn't get him the result that I knew was right. 251 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 3: And at that point, if you're an open court, you 252 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: don't sob loudly, you don't call it no, you just cry. 253 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 3: Everybody's seen crying in court. We're all professionals. The tears 254 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: come down, but it was unmistakable that I cared and 255 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 3: that I felt a great series of bit of loss. 256 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 3: And then we all shook hands and I walked out 257 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 3: of court and I went home. And then this morning 258 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 3: at eleven o'clock, the DA called me and he said, Josh, 259 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 3: I was thinking about the case all night. We there's 260 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 3: got to be more we can do, so what I've done, 261 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 3: And then he explained to me the extra actions he 262 00:14:55,640 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 3: took as a considerate professional district attorney and found a 263 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: way that we're going to go back in front of 264 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 3: that judge. And is the kids still going to get 265 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,239 Speaker 3: a sense? Yeah, DA did his job. This kid needs punishment. 266 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 3: It's acceptable. He is guilty. But the DA cared about 267 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 3: what's really going to happen to this twenty one year 268 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 3: old African American kid from questionable circumstance, because the DA 269 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 3: cares about justice, and most das, almost all das, really 270 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 3: do love and care about justice and are their community. 271 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 3: They just express that by working for the state, which 272 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: some people get offended by it. I don't get offended 273 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 3: by it, and you shouldn't get offended by it too. 274 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 3: And when you hear people scream about all cops are 275 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: this or all prospect, that's not true because there are 276 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 3: so many great people involved in criminal justice. You just 277 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 3: don't like the position that it's their job to take. 278 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: And some of them totally admit awful people. There are 279 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 3: some awful criminal defense layers. They're off people everywhere. That's 280 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 3: just the way the world is. But when you you 281 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: care and you lead with caring, no one can look away. 282 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 3: And that's how you get the extra at the end 283 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: of the disposition. That's when you know you've really left 284 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 3: it out all on the field for your client, is 285 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 3: because your heart's open that anyone looking can see you're caring. 286 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: Do you know while you're sitting there talking, I'm thinking 287 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: in six months, that's going to be a different child. 288 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: You got to get him out faster than that to 289 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: get him help because the reality is he will get 290 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: out one day, and you want him to have the 291 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: help so that there's not future victims. 292 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 3: And that's the point. The point is you've got to 293 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: have some punishment and you've got to have some certainty, 294 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 3: but you also got to remember about prevention and how 295 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: prevention and rehabilitation and creating an output that being someone 296 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 3: posts sentence that's not going to be a recidivus and 297 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 3: recidivism really that's where America gets frustrated and angry. We're 298 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 3: pretty good at catching bad guys when they do stuff. 299 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: What's awful is that we haven't unlocked the mystery of 300 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 3: what do we do Locking them up forever protects society, 301 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 3: but what does that do to a person? And more importantly, 302 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 3: what do we do when we can't just hold them 303 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 3: in warehouse them. They're going to go out at some point. 304 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 3: We don't want to have, you know, thousands of old 305 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 3: people dying, and that's unsustainable and unjust and immoral. And 306 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 3: what we've failed on is is what do we do 307 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 3: with these individuals who are coming out and they don't 308 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 3: fit in. It's harder to get them to fit back in. 309 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: They may never be able to fit in since so 310 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 3: many of them have untreated or undertreated mental health and 311 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 3: physical health issues. So we as a society deserve a 312 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 3: solution from law enforcement and the criminal justice system that 313 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 3: protects our rights as citizens not violating the law. But 314 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 3: we got to do better than what we're doing now, 315 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: because in six months a pretty usual normal person could 316 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 3: really get eaten up in jail, and they're going to 317 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 3: learn a bunch of bad stuff, and they're going to 318 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 3: see some pretty awful people and awful things, and they 319 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 3: may be traumatized in a way that they can't recover 320 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 3: from prison. Violence is so awful. Most people don't realize. 321 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 3: We have a specific law saying that, hey, we know 322 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 3: rapid people in prisons wrong. We still need to make 323 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: another law about it called Priya, the Prevention of Rape, 324 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 3: and even that struggles to function, and we still have 325 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 3: an endemic violence against inmates and when they get out, 326 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 3: we kind of get what we sew. But that's why 327 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 3: this system's aspirational. We're getting better because we're trying to 328 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 3: figure out how to unlock that recidivism and prevent people 329 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 3: from revisiting the criminal justice system. 330 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: I told y'all we were going to be on the 331 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: ship for training and that y'all just needed to hang out. 332 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 3: I'll talk to you all day. We can get a 333 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 3: phone book out here. 334 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,719 Speaker 2: Let's do it all right, love, I love it. Well, 335 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: let's Joe be in because I want you to. 336 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: Tell me what is going on in delfa mind blow? 337 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 3: Literally, you can't right, we joke on it. You can't 338 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 3: write stories as good as criminal and you can't but 339 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: talk about ripping the cover off. 340 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: I was gobsmacked yesterday. 341 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 3: Unbelievable. So small practitioner lawyers, which most criminal defense lawyers are, 342 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 3: because of the ethics involved. We can't be in big 343 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 3: partnerships with lots of other similar practitioners because we work 344 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 3: in a very small world and the conflicts are real, 345 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 3: and conflicts are something that the court system has done 346 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: a really good job delineating by code and with If 347 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 3: you've represented someone previously, you can't represent someone in opposition 348 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 3: to them in the future because you have confidential information. 349 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 3: You can't represent code defendants unless there are is So 350 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 3: what that leads to is most lawyers, or a large 351 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 3: number of them, have office space shares where it's a 352 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 3: number of lawyers all working together out of a facility. 353 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 3: And we are licensed professionals, which means the buck stops 354 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 3: with us. There's not any ah I should have done 355 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 3: it that. Nope, nope, no irresponsible And this is court 356 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 3: and it's real and there's no excuses. And so what 357 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 3: has apparently happened is the second set of lawyers for 358 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 3: Richard Allen, who kept on going with the whole Odinist theory, 359 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 3: who had put together some pretty good arguments, and we 360 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 3: were getting ready for a trial real soon. And that 361 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 3: trial is a big one. There's a lot of prep involved. 362 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 3: And what has come out is that these lawyers were 363 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 3: betrayed by someone very close to them within their office, 364 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 3: that stole and distributed confidential information in violation of everything 365 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 3: good and who about practicing law. And now one of 366 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 3: them has killed themselves. It's dramatically affected the public perception 367 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 3: for the accused, and there are big questions about fair 368 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 3: trial issues and all that. And now the court has 369 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 3: released the lawyers from representing mister Allen. So they're fired. 370 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 3: They're off. They can't do their job because they were 371 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 3: betrayed by someone in their office, in their universe. And 372 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 3: now the judge's going to have to appoint new lawyers 373 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 3: or mister Allen's going to have to get new lawyers, 374 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 3: and that's going to set back this trial for how 375 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 3: many months? Yeah, four months? I don't know how fast. 376 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 3: Somebody comes to speed on a cold case with forensics 377 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 3: Odinus defense. This man, that's a tough one. 378 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: There is no way they're going to be able to 379 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: get up to speed in less than six months. 380 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 2: Not possible. 381 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 3: I absolutely agree, And it's awful that these families who 382 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 3: have been waiting for so long. And this is a 383 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 3: guy I remember, there are confessions. This isn't some guy 384 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 3: that just picked up and said, oh no, it's you. No, no, no. 385 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 3: There is a lot of corroboration. There's the forensics with 386 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 3: this bullet. There's a lot going on there. 387 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: He put himself on the bridge, he put himself there, 388 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: he put himself in play. 389 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 3: I'm not going to say he's cooked, but it seems 390 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 3: pretty strong for the state considering the evidence that they 391 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 3: have to work with. 392 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: And see it seemed to me with the leaked photographs 393 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: and then the odinism, it seemed like, hey, we've got 394 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: a gag order, so how can I get the court 395 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: of public opinion on my side? How can I tak 396 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: that jury before trial? That's what it seems like to me. 397 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 3: And you're totally hitting on the right stuff, which is 398 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 3: this fourth wall? How are you defend like you're not 399 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 3: just defending the case in court. That's one defense. You 400 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 3: got bunches of defenses that are outside of court. And 401 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 3: it's so wild that we see that more and more 402 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 3: due to the advancement in primarily digital media and the 403 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: access that we all have now where immediately we are 404 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 3: in intimate personal contact with the news reporters, the newsmakers, 405 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 3: and the people discussing news, and that puts into play 406 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 3: the ability of people to manipulate that process. And what 407 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 3: are we seeing now collateral attacks on jurors. We're seeing, oh, 408 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 3: we didn't like that jury ruling, that conviction, whatever, We're 409 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 3: going to go research the tar out of these jurors, 410 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 3: find something they did twenty years ago that creates a 411 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 3: cop boom motion for a new trial. And that's a 412 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 3: double edged sword, because sure, we want jurors to have 413 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 3: told the truth, and it's bad if a juror lied 414 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 3: to serve on a jury. But at the same time, 415 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 3: when the jury's done and the case is over, we 416 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 3: designed that finality for a reason. We need finality. That's 417 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 3: the whole point of trial is the cooler heads, the 418 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 3: educated lawyers can't agree. We need the twelve people who 419 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 3: couldn't get out of jury duty to decide what the 420 00:23:58,800 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 3: truth is. 421 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, Joshua, because you know the 422 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 2: deal where. 423 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: If you're driving a car and a friend of yours 424 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: in the passenger seat throws out a bottle and hit somebody. 425 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 2: You're responsible, Yeah, well. 426 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 3: There's some imputed responsibility, there's some insurance responsibility. Criminal responsibility 427 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 3: is going to get a little bit different. 428 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: But I feel like that attorney that had those crimsing photographs. Yes, 429 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: somebody else might have got them and they sent them out, 430 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: but they had responsibility in those things not being underlock 431 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: and key. 432 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 3: Oh. Absolutely. You are held to a very high standard 433 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 3: when it comes to running your office as a lawyer, 434 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 3: and that includes taking all reasonable measures to ensure the 435 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 3: confidentiality of information that's not your information. It's your clients. 436 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 3: You're a custody of it, you're in control and have 437 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 3: permissions with it, but that's not your information to release. Necessarily, 438 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 3: not keeping the appropriate safeguards in places destroyed many firms. 439 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: One of the things that you see and that we 440 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 3: see now are some of these kind of bomb hacker 441 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 3: attacks against firms where if you really want to destroy 442 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 3: something as challenging and intimate as a small legal business, 443 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 3: they throw in some security issues, throw in a problem 444 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 3: that neither one of them caused, but both of them 445 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 3: are going to have to answer to. And I know 446 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 3: more than one friend and colleague whose firm has basically 447 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 3: been hijacked and destroyed by outside forces coming in and 448 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: doing something like this, and it's awful. I think each 449 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: case is unique and that has its own unique dynamics, 450 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 3: but it's something all lawyers need to be aware of, 451 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: and it lies unfortunately, squarely on the fault of the lawyers. 452 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: And you know, another thing to me that was so 453 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: telling is after that three minute court proceeding, they were 454 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: not out front doing a press conference. 455 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 3: We have professional repute and we can joke about how 456 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 3: they don't really matter. That no, they really matter. And 457 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 3: this is the kind of breach of professional fiduciary professional 458 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 3: ethics and obligations. It's hard to get away from. And 459 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 3: it's important that the public know about it so that 460 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 3: they can be educated legal consumers. It's important that the 461 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 3: rest of the bar know about it so that the 462 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 3: bar can take into account best practices and insert that 463 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 3: into kind of the ouvra of how lawyers should run firms. 464 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 3: It goes into the entire criminal defense universe, where das 465 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 3: have always had concerns about the availability of confidential information 466 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 3: and whenever they argue about not wanting to share something 467 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 3: with the defense. This is why, because while most lawyers 468 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: are going to have really good controls, the ones that 469 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 3: don't don't. And the permanent damage to justice in this 470 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 3: case is undeniable. That this prosecution is different now, is weaker, 471 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 3: whatever you want, It's different in a way that it 472 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 3: didn't have to be because of the criminal actions of 473 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 3: these three people breaking into the lawyer's office and sharing 474 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 3: this stuff. And I don't see how it can be 475 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 3: tried necessarily with the local jury pool, considering how big 476 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 3: story news this is going to be. And I worry 477 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 3: about the strength of the state's case overall because it 478 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 3: feeds into this odinism defense that while it could make sense, 479 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 3: I don't know whether it does or not. But this 480 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 3: is certainly more facts that someone can consider when presented 481 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 3: with is an odinist cult conspiracy of valid defense? 482 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: Okay, let's shift gears a little bit. You've ever been 483 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: held in contail? 484 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 3: So I've threatened a number of times, had the cuffs 485 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 3: put on me during an aggressive discussion. I never actually 486 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 3: made it through the door. You lead with care, and 487 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 3: you get involved, and emotions are important, and they're judges 488 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 3: that flatley I disagree with. Luckily has never happened. I 489 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 3: have served to assist some lawyers who have gone down 490 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 3: that route, and luckily it sorts itself out pretty quickly. 491 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 3: But you've got to have that that emotional killer edge 492 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 3: where you've got to be ready to not make friends. 493 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 3: One of the best parts about this job. I tell 494 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 3: people all the time, you like you like fighting, and 495 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 3: you like it. Man, there's no better fight than a 496 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: legal fight. You want to fight without actually bare knuckles, man, 497 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: good cop, good lawyers. That's a fight. Trying to get 498 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 3: an officer to say something you want to say when 499 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 3: that officer knows damn well they don't want to say 500 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 3: it because it's not that's a fight, especially when you've 501 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,959 Speaker 3: got real professional people that take this stuff seriously and 502 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 3: it's satisfying. People are, oh, you must get so fresh. Yeah, 503 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 3: But man, when you're done, what a good fight? You 504 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 3: kind of have that jive on. Or when you've gone 505 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 3: up and you've changed a judge's mind, Oh, my lord, 506 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 3: does that feel good? The kind of joy and satisfaction 507 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 3: that is only available by working in this situation. It's you, 508 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: my officers when they have succeeded protecting a victim. You 509 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 3: want to see a big smile, Go talk to the 510 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 3: victim witness, people who spend endless hours doing some pretty 511 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 3: thankless stuff when the real bad guy goes down. I 512 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 3: was just part I represented a victim. I do some 513 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 3: victim representation because sometimes the state is tough with victims, 514 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: and victims don't want to necessarily do what's in their 515 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 3: best interest or the right thing, so sometimes they need lawyers. 516 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: This case was awful because the bad guy was truly awful, 517 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 3: and the victim was getting threatened, had some mental health. 518 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 3: There was just so many issues. But at the end 519 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 3: of the day, I was very pleased to see the 520 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 3: super bad guy go down hard and we're talking decades, 521 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 3: and the smile on the victim witness advocate's face was huge. 522 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 3: That's why people get involved in the criminal justice system, 523 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 3: not necessarily as a lawyer. And we know DA's love 524 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 3: it when they win a case. But there's nothing quite 525 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: like the feeling of walking out with this industry's greatest gift, 526 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 3: which is this is one of the few jobs you 527 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 3: can have where you can make a permanent, intimate, important contribution. 528 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 3: An important benefit is a gift from you into an 529 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 3: individual's life forever. And really there's only a limited number 530 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: of jobs where that happens, and they tend to be 531 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 3: public facing service jobs like lawyers, like law enforcement, like teachers, 532 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 3: like doctors, and the joy, the benefit, the compensation of 533 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 3: getting to go home and go to sleep knowing that 534 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 3: you made an impact permanently, intimately on an individual's life 535 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 3: that they will never forget. That's awesome. 536 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: No, it's fantastic. And let me ask you on that 537 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: same vein. 538 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: Let's talk briefly about what happened in Birmingham regarding Natalie 539 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:35,719 Speaker 1: Holloway's family. 540 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 3: Everybody I believe in the universe, at least in this hemisphere, 541 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 3: is familiar with mister van Dersloop and every parent's nightmare. 542 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 3: I've got a daughter, not just a daughter thing, it's 543 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,479 Speaker 3: a sun thing too. Your kid disappears. Not only did 544 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 3: your kid disappear, you've got to battle through a bad 545 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 3: forward facing law enforcement environment. Considering where it happened and 546 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 3: these small countries in the Caribbean, and I have an 547 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 3: office in the Virgin Islands. It's how we did the 548 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 3: Epstein trust case. We practice do some very interesting stuff 549 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 3: with some non US groups. The Holloway family was stymied. 550 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 3: People don't remember. They were just shut down, left right 551 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 3: and centered by law enforcement, kind of similar to Ramseys, 552 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 3: where that relationship where it should have been, oh my god, 553 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 3: you're the victim's family, what can we do, was instead 554 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 3: not that, and there were big questions and dismissals and 555 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 3: you're not important and go away. So for them now, 556 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 3: so long after to get some more truth and it's 557 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 3: not the complete truth. There's absolutely no way that was 558 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 3: the complete truth. But to get more truth is huge. 559 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 3: I think it's disgusting how the system was successfully manipulated 560 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,719 Speaker 3: by a guy that have been able to manipulate it. 561 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 3: And I'm really glad it looks like he's going to 562 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 3: be on ice for a long time. I will not 563 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 3: be surprised if more stuff happens, because he's caught charges 564 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 3: in prison already, he dies in there, and as a 565 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 3: dad of a daughter, I'm I got other people out 566 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 3: to cry for. 567 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: You know, when Beth looked at him in court and said, 568 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: you look like hell your hand, I don't think you're 569 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: gonna make it. 570 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: I agree with both of you. 571 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: He's already gotten twice the time because he won't behave 572 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: in the prison in Peru. They're going to keep adding 573 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: charges because now he thinks he's bulletproof. 574 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 3: I really hope that we can get some more confirmation, 575 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 3: and I know there's this written profer that we're all 576 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 3: going to get access to at some point, and I 577 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 3: hope it has a lot more details, because everything we're 578 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 3: reading about the oral actual hearing, you know, it was 579 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 3: good stuff, but it didn't have the specificity that a 580 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 3: lot of people want. I don't think the story is over, 581 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 3: and you'll see that with a lot of long arc 582 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 3: criminal cases with kind of lag better term thoughtful defendants 583 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 3: their information they learn very quickly it's the only real 584 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 3: value that they can provide in the process, and so 585 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 3: they keep that information and clutch it like a diamond 586 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 3: because that is the only way they can currye some 587 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 3: favor in the future when it comes to better treatment, transfers, releases. 588 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 3: When you get into an incarcerated situation, your values change dramatically, 589 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 3: and something as simple as being allowed to get this 590 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 3: kind of in house job, or having the ability to 591 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 3: change rooms or those otherwise little things are huge, and 592 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 3: you will see a very transactional approach from certain inmates. 593 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 3: Once they're in the system, and I'll say it's more 594 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 3: common in federal than state because the federal system also 595 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 3: as legal issues in place where if you can provide 596 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 3: substantive cooperation, it can literally benefit your sentence. And people 597 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 3: like let's talk about Jelayne Maxwell. Everybody thinks that Jelaine's 598 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 3: going to get out early because she's going to keep spilling. Now, 599 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 3: I personally believe that she knows a lot more and 600 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 3: is not allowed to share it because if she wants 601 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 3: to walk out of prison, she needs to keep her 602 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 3: mouth shut. But if other things happen during the time 603 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 3: of her sentence that allows her to spill some beans, 604 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 3: I totally expect to hear more from her before she 605 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 3: has finished serving that sentence. It's the only real pathway 606 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 3: for her to get any reduction in her service time. 607 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,399 Speaker 1: Well, Josh, I got to tell you, you have just been 608 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: extraordinary tonight, and you have given all kind of just 609 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: wisdom and love and support and just flat good advice. 610 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 2: And I'll take it. 611 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: Waltn I recently just celebrated our twenty fifth wedding anniversary. 612 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: Congrat Thank you, even though we've been together a lot 613 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: longer than that. But it's funny when. 614 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: You say that. 615 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes people will say, well, y'all just argue all the time. 616 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: Y'all been together so long, and from now on, I'm 617 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 1: going to tell people won't. And I've never had an argument. 618 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: We've only had an aggressive discussion. 619 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 3: I you go, brilliant. I love what you do. I 620 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 3: love this, I love your audience because these are people 621 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 3: that care. And if we have more care in this world, 622 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 3: care about our fellow brothers and sisters on this green 623 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 3: pea running through space at a million miles an hour, 624 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 3: that will make the whole world better. And you're a 625 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 3: big part of that by sharing a really fair and 626 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 3: caring platform for people to get on and talk about 627 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 3: this stuff that really matters. 628 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: Well, it's important and I tell people all the time 629 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: it's you that zone seven, and you are such a 630 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: critical part of mine. 631 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 2: Those people that you love. 632 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: And you admire and you respect and you know they 633 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: will be there if you call them. So if y'all 634 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: don't have a Zone seven, y'all better get one. Is 635 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: if the only way to go through this thing. 636 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,919 Speaker 3: I'll tell you thank you so much for having me show. 637 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 3: This has been just absolutely awesome. 638 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 1: Oh it's going to be one a many. You sit 639 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: by the phone. It's coming. 640 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 2: Trust y'all. I'm going to end Zone seven the way 641 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 2: that I. 642 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: Always do with a quote as a peacemaker, the lawyer 643 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: has the superior opportunity of being a good man. Abraham Lincoln. 644 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.