WEBVTT - Chapter 10: The Winds, The Tides and Gravity 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:01.760 It was the night before their wedding. 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:02.599 This is Tobin. 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.480 And so we got there and mary Anne is in 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:11.920 the kitchen, kneeling down with her head in the oven 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:16.000 and her hair all rolled up in minute made orange 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:19.400 juice cans that she had been saving. Her whole head 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.800 was wrapped up in these orange juice cans and she 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:23.440 was trying. 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.840 To dry her here and Sarah and I go to 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:27.560 the fabric store down in Chinatown. 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:29.600 Mary Anne hughes my mother. 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:34.000 We buy twenty five dollars worth of Irish linen and 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:38.879 some lace that went like square neck, little empire waist 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:41.519 came out and then there was a ruffle down the 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.640 bottom and lace around the sleeves and some lining and 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:48.840 it was beautiful. It was beautiful. It was so simple, 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:50.960 It was so beautiful. It was twenty five dollars. 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:52.920 Sarah Tosi was one of the bride'smaids. 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:57.640 Sarah but tablecloths and made their gowns out of the table. 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:00.320 But they looked right. 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.080 When Sarah came home with the tablecloths, she called mary Anne. 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.560 To say, look, I don't think the its maids are 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:08.759 going to outshine the breath. 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.119 After Patrick made his announcement at the Paula Center. There 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:17.320 were a lot of fireworks. 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:22.080 Patrick announced it he was going to get married Christine Truffant, 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.120 one of the ogs of the Paula Center and my godmother. 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.199 I think if probably there was a challenge in community. 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.440 Emotional meetings were held outside the Paulist Center. 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.560 We had a meeting. There was so much he generated 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.839 by the discussion too, that it was clear that people 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:42.440 were there that were not happy with this change, and 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.160 that they weren't going to go along with it, and 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:47.240 that there would be some kind of schism. 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.640 The community Patrick had built began to split apart between 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.400 people who wanted him to be a married priest and 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.440 people who just couldn't hang with that level of radicalism. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.240 But the community saw itself. 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:02.080 As the church Patrick sister, my aunt Joann, and. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.080 So they felt that they had the power to call 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:08.000 on him to be the priest. That's what makes liberation 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.880 theology so threatening, I think, is the people get to 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.000 call on the leaders, do you know. I mean, that's 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.120 the evolution of it where you say that the leader 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.240 is organic, grows out of the community and is chosen 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:25.360 by the community, not from you know, the hierarchy. 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.160 But they knew this would mean leaving the Catholic Church. 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:33.680 But everyone probably knew. I think certainly I knew if 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.440 we presented that we wanted a married priest and that 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.360 we were willing to kind of go with that, that 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:42.880 no hierarchy was ever going to go with that. At 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:46.359 that time was kind of time that you think, well, 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:48.840 things are never going to be quite the same anymore, 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:49.960 and they weren't. 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.400 Soon. Half the group that decided to leave with Patrick 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.320 named itself the People of Hope, and they moved across 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.400 Boston Common to a colonial meeting house. 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:02.120 So that then they agreed that. 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:04.320 We would move Floyd McManus. 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.560 They would move with Pat to Charles Street. 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:10.160 Antobin had been so embroiled in the turmoil surrounding the 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.880 Paula Center community she was basically done. 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:16.080 Yeah, I didn't go with either group. I kind of 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:17.160 had had it. 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.920 So Patrick and the People of Hope walked out of 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.760 the red double doors on Park Street, leaving everything they 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:27.840 had built behind. But he still had a two thousand 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:30.160 year old religious organization to contend with. 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.440 He tried to get leaoisized because he wanted to get 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.000 married in the church and he couldn't get married as 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:41.280 a priest but the archbishop refused to lasize him. So 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.960 therefore Patrick never got leaosized. He was still a priest, 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.880 and so therefore that became an issue with getting married, 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:52.839 because then if anyone married them, then they would be 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:54.800 in heresy or something. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.560 The archbishop told him that anyone who performed the ceremony 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:02.560 would be summarily excommunicated, so he had to get a 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:03.360 little creative. 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.280 The wedding was pot luck. Again. 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.560 Let me remind you of the nobody, all the fabulous food. 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.880 Everybody brought everything. A few things were laced with a 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:15.760 little bit of magic oregano. 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:20.200 Patrick and Marianne invited everyone from both communities, unsure of 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:21.200 how many would show. 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:23.200 I remember parts of the wedding. 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.040 This is Chrissy or Kristen Hughes, my sister. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.440 I remember being completely overwhelmed with how many people were there. 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:34.279 I remember walking into the church with people carrying wedding cakes, 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:39.040 homemade wedding cakes up the steps in big jugs of 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.400 wine and cases of beer and big hams. I mean 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:46.240 they estimated maybe seven or eight hundred people there, because 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.760 the whole community showed up, everybody. 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:53.480 Directing everyone from both sides of the Great Schism came 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:55.520 to celebrate Patrick and Mary Anne. 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.320 Was the first time I met his parents was at 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.000 the wedding, and you can imagine. I mean, they were 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.679 already in their seventies. He was the golden haired boy. 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:14.360 He was the youngest son of seven children of Irish 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.320 parents who go in the priesthood, and he's getting married. 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.400 They were such I don't know, they were so incredible 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.920 to be able to embrace it the way they did. 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:33.120 I remember walking down the aisle and they were to 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.720 my right, and I remember catching their eye and just 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:38.960 giving them the biggest smile. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:43.480 Marianne's own family boycott at the wedding. Her father, her brother, 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.280 her wicked stepmother. None of them could bear witnessing her 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.200 marry a priest. It was just too much for them. 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.279 And during the kiss of peace, Patrick's father came up 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.960 to me and said, meet your new grandpa. And that 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.640 was the relationship that he and I had, like for 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:00.719 the rest of our lives. 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:06.279 Patrick made the ceremony his ultimate multimedia extravaganza, and it 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:06.960 was just an act. 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.560 It was our act of creation. It was our active celebration. 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.800 Putting that together. The music was unbelievable. 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:20.240 Then he kicked things off, let's see. 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:26.400 Hello and welcome to the wedding celebration. My name is Patrick. 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:26.919 Hughes and. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.880 We're very very happy that you hear. And as usual, 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:40.080 there's a little bit of confusion because it's kind of 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.280 multimedia thing and Floyd isn't around, you know, to keep 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:47.760 us pushing, but he's here tonight. But the big thing 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.760 is that, you know, we want it to just kind 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.359 of relax and enjoy ourselves and. 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:56.480 You can. 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:03.320 We're going to do a little slide show which well 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:08.680 you'll see what it's like when you see it. All right, 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:12.600 Well we're going to start now, so just relax and see. 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:14.880 Would someone please say that to me? 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.800 The entrance song was Here Comes the Sun, and Patrick 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.160 and I put together this slide show. It was us 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:43.200 from birth until we met, and it was two pictures 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.000 of us growing up side by side. I think the 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:51.400 last slide of that song was Patrick in a cassock 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:55.520 at the seminary and me holding a brand new baby Kristen. 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.520 Those were side by side and everybody cracked up laughing. 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.480 This would clearly be no ordinary wedding. 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:09.160 And then the next the next song was in My 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:13.880 Life by the Beatles, and I cannot hear that song 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:19.760 and not cry ever. And that song then was when 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.400 we met. And then those photographs were all of him 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.400 and me and Kristen and Joe and friends from the 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:28.640 Paul Center community. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.240 When the slide show ended, it was Chrissie's cue as flower. 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:33.720 Girl, and I remember being at the end of the 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.000 aisle and my one job as a flower girl was 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.280 to bring the flowers up, and I just dropped him 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.520 and ran because I think I was supposed to go 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.320 out front. I think Paul was at the end. I 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.120 think I just ran to him, like I just was like, 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.920 this is insane, Like if this is so many people, 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.320 it was overwhelming to me to see how many people 0:08:56.000 --> 0:09:00.559 had come to be there for them. I don't think 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:04.040 I understood until that moment what a big deal it 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.360 was that they were getting married. 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.800 So Chrissy was very scared and nervous and she wouldn't 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.360 come down the aisle. But Joe ran right down the 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.400 aisle as fast as he could, and Patrick was at 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.000 the end and he just caught him up. 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.640 And you can hear Joe. You can hear him on 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:21.680 the tape of the wedding. 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.959 Same Mommy, there's. 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:30.240 A great picture of Patrick kneeling down waiting for Joe 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:30.920 to come down. 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:32.040 It was so great. 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.040 And then Patrick came back up the aisle to get me, 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:36.680 and then he and I walked down together. 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:39.160 Their friend Michael Hunt gave the homily. 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:44.359 Even on this night of unimaginable war, when our planes 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:49.320 destroy Asian brothers and sisters, Mary Anne and Patrick have 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:54.439 the courage, maybe the foolish courage, to tell us that 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:57.720 their love for each other extends to all of us 0:09:58.080 --> 0:09:58.720 and beyond. 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.760 And in the middle of mike Hans homily, someone had 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.160 wandered in from the street, I think, one of the 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.720 homeless men that used to hang out outside. And as 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:14.440 Mike is speaking, he yells from the audience, how would 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:18.720 you like to be a Communist? 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:19.600 Could I just finish? 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:20.880 Old? 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:25.160 Place goes silent, and Patrick and I lean over and 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:26.680 say perfect. 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.000 I even I think did a reading at the at 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.839 the wedding Floyd that was as very happy. Mary Anne 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.640 seemed very happy, just a very happy occasion. I was happy. 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:41.000 I was happy for them. 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:42.800 But I think that was the first time I met 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.960 with Bob Kane, and it was all very kind of 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:47.719 lovey dovey at that time. 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:52.000 You know, and Patrick looked rapturously happy, and Walsh it 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:53.880 was just very unifying. 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:59.040 Jim wrote the most beautiful poem, as only Jim could, a. 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:03.240 Wedding poem for Marianne and Patrick. Jim Carroll, you were 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:07.000 wondering why the spring is not here by now? What 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.160 is the warm weather waiting for? The warm weather waits 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:16.199 for a wedding, but not yours. If the gods must 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.760 ache their ways through this long age, when the hovering 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:25.640 birds of death fly north with numbers, why should you 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:30.480 go easy? You are children of the war. This most 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.520 beautiful poem, face of dawn. 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:36.040 About what was happening about the other bride and girl Vietnam. 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.960 But I remember the repeating stanza in the poem and 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.920 the end of it, because when Patrick and I went 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.000 on our honeymoon, wo went skiing and we used to 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.280 yell to each other up and down the ski slope. 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:50.160 You rainbow, you wiper. 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:56.600 Cynical ideas, you laughers, you lovers, you small words of God, 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:58.640 you bodies of Christ. 0:11:59.559 --> 0:11:59.920 Amen. 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:01.120 Amen. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.080 Yeah. 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:22.080 Sarah sang bridge over troubled water when. 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:28.200 You but Sarah, I remember her at the wedding. I 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:34.120 remember her singing and just feeling kind of proud of her, 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:36.720 like because she was so talented. You know when you 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:41.160 see somebody that you love from a distance doing something amazing. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.880 Yeah, I sang my guts out to Federal ears. Was 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.120 it a wedding? Was it tiny? 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:50.080 Chris and Joe? 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:51.400 It just was? 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.920 It just felt at once overwhelming and I felt proud 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.200 like I was. I maybe even thought like, waiter, are 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.040 we famous? Because I think we live in a basement apartment? 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:07.800 Is this what fame looks like? 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.439 The hall was covered in their signature felt banners, these. 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.440 Beautiful handmade banners that would go on the front of 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.719 the altar. This beautiful banner which I actually still have, 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.600 and it says, if I truly love one person, I 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:27.360 love the world. I love life. And that was really 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:33.560 truly so emblematic of how we felt that by learning 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:39.360 to love one person, deeply love one person, you learned 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.959 to love the world and you learned to love life. 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:46.680 We had had, all of us, this incredibly intensive experience 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:52.160 of community and new church and radical politics and living 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:56.600 the social gospel. The whole community came together around this wedding, 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:02.520 around the celebration of unbelievable love. We were creatures of 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.120 the community. We came out of the community. We were 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.600 part of it, but we were because of it in 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:08.880 so many ways. 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:11.760 But then they got to the part of the ceremony 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:12.120 where they. 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:14.520 Would be wet, and we had written our own vows 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.760 that were really, really beautiful. We wrote them together. 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.160 Patrick by this point had married plenty of couples, and 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.320 in his last act as a Roman Catholic priest, he 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:29.000 married himself to my mother. And he did so with 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:30.760 a little help from Walt Woodman. 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.080 The road is before us. Let the paper remain on 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.440 the desk, unwritten, and the book on the shelf unopened. 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.400 That the tools remain in the workshop, That the money 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:47.280 remain unearned. That the school stand mind not the cry 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.680 of the teacher, that the preacher preach in the pulpit, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.479 that the lawyer plead in the court, and the judge. 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:55.000 Expound the law. 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.080 I give you my hand, I give you my love, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.800 more precious than money. I give you myself before preaching 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:09.240 our law. Will you give me yourself? Will you come 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.680 travel with me? Shall we stick by each other as 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:14.440 long as we live? 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:35.000 Marianne, will you be my wife? Yes, Marianne, my friend, 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:39.160 be my wife, and marry. 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:39.920 Me because I love you. 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.800 And it's as simple as that and as profound as that. 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:52.880 Patrick, will you be my husband? 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.160 Yes, I will promise to love you and believe in 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:01.680 you with simplicity and tenderness, to put my trust in 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.000 you forever, and to comfort you and body and soul. 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:06.160 I love you. 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:14.160 And then they kissed, and then there was a confused. 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:23.080 Pause, and then I remember Patrick turning around saying, we're married. 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:24.480 We're married, and. 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.000 The place went, you know, the place went wild. 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.080 But Patrick wasn't quite done being a wild haired priest. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.560 And then Patrick said the mess after we were married, 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:46.760 but immediately after we were married. My last memory of 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:53.120 the wedding is, We've got suitcases, umbrella's slide projectors. I'm 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:57.680 in a wedding down marching down Charles marching down Charles Street. 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.200 It was just the greatest it had to have than 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.800 the greatest scene to see. It was hysterical. 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.840 Two Boston Irish Catholics on Charles Street in the rain, 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.720 a defrocked priest and a divorce a having detonated their 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.879 lives into something entirely new upon the earth. While it 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.480 can often be said that Irish Catholics are shame based 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.960 life forms. God help anyone that gets in the way 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.080 of our good time. We are, at the end of 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:28.840 the day still mud savages, stomping through a hard scrabble landscape, 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:34.600 surviving on seaweed and poetry. Brian Denahey is said to 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.359 have said of growing up Irish Catholic that it taught 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.000 him how to raise Hell. And that's the funny thing 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.080 about this bizarre haplow group of hapless human specimens. We 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:49.679 revere what we have decided is sacred, and we detonate 0:17:49.880 --> 0:18:01.879 everything else. I'm Brendan Patrick Hughes. This is Divine intervention, 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:27.119 Chapter ten. The winds, the tides, and gravity. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:34.840 The wedding was sweet and lovely. 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.600 This is Jim Carroll, who's always been like an uncle 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.439 to me, and who has written several fascinating books on 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.560 the fate of the Catholic Church. I mean, there were. 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:46.960 Lots of flowers, lots of happiness, lots of joy, even 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.680 though it was complicated, complicated for me. I was still 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.920 a priest at the time, still feeling grief that Patrick 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:57.199 had left the priesthood. He may have had harbored the 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.359 fantasy that he could still somehow be a priest, but 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:01.480 it was clear that Immusily wouldn't. 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:05.000 Be Patrick's days saying Mass as a renegade priest were numbered, 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:06.479 whether he knew it or not. 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:11.240 After a year's experience of being married, I knew that 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.040 he was going to be in a better situation or 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.199 going to be in a good situation. 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.440 Floyd, who became a high school principal after leaving the church, So. 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.200 I didn't feel quite so guilty after that. 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.120 This church Patrick had devoted his life to changing would 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:31.520 now move on without him. Without Patrick, the team experiment 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.720 at the Paula Center was over, but the Paula Center 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:39.960 would never be the same. The church would be another matter. 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:42.960 Are you a. 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:44.080 Practice of Catholic man? 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:54.960 That's all in the definition, isn't it. So for my definition, 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.800 I'll say yes, I'm not a practicing. 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.639 Catholic Antobin in two thousand and nine who lived up 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.080 the hill from my childhood home and drove a La car. 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.080 I don't think things have progressed very far in terms 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.320 of the Vatican. I mean, I think they actually have 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.160 regressed since John the twenty third. You know, I think 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:17.200 it's just the water. It was like the water opened 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:21.720 for a period of opportunity, and now has closed over. 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.920 No, No, I am not a practicing Catholic. 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:27.359 Joanne Hughes my aunt. 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:32.760 It just represented something that I couldn't hold any longer. 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:38.160 I couldn't stand with the church anymore because I found 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:44.160 the church to be so really destructive in the formation 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:49.200 of women, girls and who they are and how they 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:55.879 understand themselves, and the fact that it continues that even 0:20:56.000 --> 0:21:03.479 now politically, socially, personally, the justice is not there. So 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.960 I have to stand away from it. But I can 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:10.840 take from the Gospel the idea of God as love, 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:12.760 and I can believe in love. 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.439 I feel like I have stayed and none An Walsh. 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:17.880 I feel like I am a noun in so many 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:24.880 important ways. And that's because I left because I couldn't 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:30.400 be who I needed to be in that time. 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.480 But and feels differently about the church itself. 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:35.720 You know, I go by church just now and I 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.080 say that would make a great laundromat. 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.879 And in the time since these young radicals left the church, 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:47.640 the institution has to say the absolute least, continued down 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:48.760 a very dark path. 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.840 The abuse of sexuality by the institution of the church 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:57.679 is so shameful. I mean, it's just so shameful, and 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:01.240 it was so pervasive, and I think it will be 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:03.480 the end of the church. I think it's how the 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:07.400 church will end, because it hasn't gone away and. 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.080 Then and of course it's all changed. 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:12.160 Like Anne says to me, now, if you ever said 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:14.000 to some of you are priests and you in jail, 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:15.920 that I think you're a pedophile or something. 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.480 Now, the scandal the church brought upon itself with predatory 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:23.200 priests destroying the lives of children and being protected by 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:28.879 their archbishops can never be forgiven to me for our purposes. 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:33.600 It symbolizes two things. One that power will come to 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:38.560 destroy innocence for sport. And two, after that generation of 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:42.000 radical young Catholics was squeezed out of the organization in 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:44.560 favor of companymen who would go on to commit and 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:47.960 be complicit in atrocities, it feels like that might have 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:50.639 been the last chance for this church to become a 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.119 change making force for good in the world, and the 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:58.639 Church blew it by letting these people go. In my 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:02.360 humble and uninformed of opinion, the Church needs to terminate 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:05.680 priesthoods for two generations and just turn over the whole 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:07.520 organization to the nuns. 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:15.639 One of the reasons the church has been able to 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:20.360 stand against feminism, to stand against the demands of liberals, 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.320 has been because the demands haven't been made from inside. 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:26.520 Jim Carroll, that's where the power structure has to be 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:30.080 fought and changed. That's my view, and that's that's not 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:31.280 a revolutionary view. 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:34.679 I admit that that's the age old question we've been 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:38.360 grappling with for ten episodes. Do you change things from 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:42.520 the inside as a stalwart incrementalist like Patrick and Floyd 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:45.240 at the Paulice Center, or do you change things from 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:49.080 without as a renegade agitator like Anne and Cookie and Paul. 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:54.840 The answer I think is we need both and both 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.280 need to work together, as they did so well in 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:03.920 Paul Cooming's Sanctuary. Inside incrementalists are always desperate for pressure 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.960 from without to help them tip the scales, and if 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:09.439 each side didn't look at each other through squinted eyes, 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:16.199 we might actually get somewhere. Sociologist Carl Mannheim wrote that 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:20.560 all change is generational change, and if anyone could have 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:25.320 changed things, it would have been these whipper snappers, because 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:29.199 civil disobedience is sometimes the only mechanism we as a 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:33.080 people have, and Anyone who is unsettled or judgmental about 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:36.679 civil disobedience doesn't realize what country they're living in. 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:40.320 Although the government is always saying, oh, we don't pay 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:42.960 attention to protesters, they pay attention. 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:46.159 Howard Zinn, whose son Jeff is one of my dearest friends. 0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:51.880 They're they're effected. No matter how they claim that they're 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:57.560 oblivious to opposition. That Nixon became very agitated and worried, 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:05.159 troubled by this out of protest works. Yeah, yeah, it 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:07.760 works in ways that we very often don't understand at 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:10.120 the time because at the time we don't see anything 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.240 happening in the government immediately. In fact, this is a 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:17.560