1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:22,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome to the first of some special episodes of 2 00:00:22,996 --> 00:00:27,956 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab Long Capacity. The now global spread of 3 00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:34,996 Speaker 1: coronavirus is affecting all of us people. This disease has 4 00:00:34,996 --> 00:00:38,036 Speaker 1: brought a whole host of medical, economic, and political problems, 5 00:00:38,396 --> 00:00:40,876 Speaker 1: but it's also given us a ton of uncertainty and anxiety, 6 00:00:41,116 --> 00:00:43,596 Speaker 1: which you're beginning to have an enormous negative impact on 7 00:00:43,636 --> 00:00:46,756 Speaker 1: our well being. But whenever I'm confused or fearful, I 8 00:00:46,836 --> 00:00:50,116 Speaker 1: always remember that looking for answers in evidence based science 9 00:00:50,356 --> 00:00:52,436 Speaker 1: is the best thing to do, and that's why I'm 10 00:00:52,476 --> 00:01:03,956 Speaker 1: hoping this podcast can help for those of you that 11 00:01:03,996 --> 00:01:07,196 Speaker 1: haven't listened before. I'm doctor Laurie Santos. I'm a professor 12 00:01:07,196 --> 00:01:10,036 Speaker 1: of psychology at Yale University, where I also live on 13 00:01:10,076 --> 00:01:13,556 Speaker 1: campus with students. In the past two weeks, university life 14 00:01:13,596 --> 00:01:16,556 Speaker 1: as I know it has been totally upended. We've halted 15 00:01:16,596 --> 00:01:18,916 Speaker 1: research and classes and have told our students that they 16 00:01:18,916 --> 00:01:21,156 Speaker 1: can't come back from spring break. They just have to 17 00:01:21,236 --> 00:01:23,316 Speaker 1: leave all their stuff where it is and complete their 18 00:01:23,356 --> 00:01:28,756 Speaker 1: studies online. The whole process has been stressful, scary, and 19 00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:31,636 Speaker 1: really sad. My staff and I spent the last week 20 00:01:31,716 --> 00:01:34,596 Speaker 1: dealing with problem after problem buying flights for students who 21 00:01:34,636 --> 00:01:37,716 Speaker 1: couldn't afford it, and fighting through a web of emergency issues, 22 00:01:39,356 --> 00:01:41,636 Speaker 1: and as of today, nearly every one of my five 23 00:01:41,716 --> 00:01:45,236 Speaker 1: hundred students is gone. Buildings that usually hum with the 24 00:01:45,276 --> 00:01:47,836 Speaker 1: sounds of hundreds of young people will now be empty 25 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:51,596 Speaker 1: for who knows how long. It's eerie and really lonely. 26 00:01:53,636 --> 00:01:55,156 Speaker 1: And so I did what I'm guessing many of you 27 00:01:55,196 --> 00:01:58,556 Speaker 1: are doing right now. I began panic scrolling surfing my 28 00:01:58,636 --> 00:02:01,596 Speaker 1: social media feeds, but it didn't provide the distraction I 29 00:02:01,636 --> 00:02:04,436 Speaker 1: was craving. The latest news wound up making me even 30 00:02:04,476 --> 00:02:07,996 Speaker 1: more anxious. I saw articles about panicked shoppers fighting over 31 00:02:08,116 --> 00:02:14,156 Speaker 1: toilet paper. But then I saw a video that was 32 00:02:14,156 --> 00:02:19,116 Speaker 1: a little more hopeful. Italians who were quarantined in their 33 00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:21,756 Speaker 1: homes had opened their windows to join together and song. 34 00:02:24,396 --> 00:02:26,516 Speaker 1: It was just after that singing video that I saw 35 00:02:26,516 --> 00:02:28,876 Speaker 1: an article in the Washington Post written by one of 36 00:02:28,876 --> 00:02:32,396 Speaker 1: my friends, Jamie Zaki. Jamil is a professor of psychology 37 00:02:32,436 --> 00:02:35,556 Speaker 1: at Stanford University an author of the book The War 38 00:02:35,636 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 1: for Kindness, Building Empathy in a Fractured World. He's also 39 00:02:39,636 --> 00:02:42,316 Speaker 1: genuinely one of the funniest and most optimistic people I've 40 00:02:42,316 --> 00:02:45,076 Speaker 1: ever met. Jamie's article was the first real breath of 41 00:02:45,076 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 1: hope I'd seen in a while. He argued that our 42 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:51,756 Speaker 1: main weapon against the spread of coronavirus social distancing, doesn't 43 00:02:51,796 --> 00:02:53,876 Speaker 1: need to break the social bonds that are so vital 44 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:57,476 Speaker 1: to our happiness with my entire community. Kicked off campus, 45 00:02:57,796 --> 00:03:00,196 Speaker 1: social distance is a challenge that I'm really struggling with 46 00:03:00,276 --> 00:03:03,036 Speaker 1: right now, and it's probably a challenge you're facing or 47 00:03:03,076 --> 00:03:05,836 Speaker 1: will soon be facing. So I decided to call Jamille 48 00:03:05,876 --> 00:03:08,436 Speaker 1: to get his advice and record our conversation so you 49 00:03:08,476 --> 00:03:11,316 Speaker 1: could learn from too. I started by asking about the 50 00:03:11,396 --> 00:03:14,636 Speaker 1: videos I've just seen. As an empathy researcher, Jamil has 51 00:03:14,636 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 1: the scientific scoop on how people actually react in a crisis. 52 00:03:18,316 --> 00:03:21,676 Speaker 1: His work shows that supermarket fistfights overcanned goods aren't as 53 00:03:21,676 --> 00:03:26,196 Speaker 1: common as we think. Disasters and catastrophes are so interesting 54 00:03:26,196 --> 00:03:28,956 Speaker 1: for this reason. Many of us have a stereotype that 55 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:31,956 Speaker 1: when the lights turn off and the rules are gone, 56 00:03:32,316 --> 00:03:34,556 Speaker 1: that will tear each other apart. That's what movies like 57 00:03:34,556 --> 00:03:37,516 Speaker 1: The Purge are about, that just under the surface, we 58 00:03:37,596 --> 00:03:40,156 Speaker 1: have this kind of violent instinct towards each other. It 59 00:03:40,236 --> 00:03:43,796 Speaker 1: turns out that basically the exact opposite is true. When 60 00:03:43,996 --> 00:03:48,596 Speaker 1: disasters happen, like earthquakes or terrorist attacks or giant blizzards, 61 00:03:48,716 --> 00:03:51,476 Speaker 1: people pour out of their homes to help each other. 62 00:03:52,196 --> 00:03:55,956 Speaker 1: It's what Rebecca Solny calls a carnival of compassion. So 63 00:03:55,996 --> 00:03:59,436 Speaker 1: you basically see people helping strangers in every way they can. 64 00:03:59,796 --> 00:04:03,196 Speaker 1: They line up for hours to donate blood, They overrun 65 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:06,276 Speaker 1: charities and then start their own. They help people and 66 00:04:06,396 --> 00:04:11,676 Speaker 1: ignore boundaries of ray and class and all other social 67 00:04:11,796 --> 00:04:15,236 Speaker 1: divisions that sometimes would separate them because almost as though 68 00:04:15,476 --> 00:04:18,756 Speaker 1: a disaster, in putting us all at risk, makes us 69 00:04:18,836 --> 00:04:21,116 Speaker 1: realize how much we have in common. But what's really 70 00:04:21,156 --> 00:04:24,916 Speaker 1: scary about the coronavirus situation is that that's not happening right. 71 00:04:25,236 --> 00:04:28,756 Speaker 1: This is the paradox of and really adds to the 72 00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:33,156 Speaker 1: tragedy of an outbreak like coronavirus, is that we have 73 00:04:33,236 --> 00:04:36,596 Speaker 1: these deep instincts that when things are going really poorly, 74 00:04:36,636 --> 00:04:39,596 Speaker 1: when we're in under stress, we have these deep instincts 75 00:04:39,636 --> 00:04:43,076 Speaker 1: to seek out others for their help and to help 76 00:04:43,116 --> 00:04:46,436 Speaker 1: them to use one of our greatest strengths, which is 77 00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 1: our connection to each other. In one of the toughest moments, 78 00:04:50,036 --> 00:04:53,396 Speaker 1: but the thing about coronavirus and other epidemics is that 79 00:04:53,436 --> 00:04:55,836 Speaker 1: they force us, for the interest of public health, to 80 00:04:55,956 --> 00:04:59,556 Speaker 1: go exactly in the opposite direction, apart when we want 81 00:04:59,596 --> 00:05:01,676 Speaker 1: to be together, when we most need to be together. 82 00:05:01,756 --> 00:05:04,836 Speaker 1: That's what makes this so tragic at even another level. 83 00:05:04,996 --> 00:05:07,356 Speaker 1: And I think you've probably seen it your university. I 84 00:05:07,356 --> 00:05:09,876 Speaker 1: know we're now implementing social distance, saying right, so my 85 00:05:09,956 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 1: staff is just standing behind, you know this big rope 86 00:05:13,076 --> 00:05:16,116 Speaker 1: that says, really stay super far away. And what's amazing 87 00:05:16,236 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 1: is people just normally have a hard time with this, 88 00:05:18,636 --> 00:05:20,196 Speaker 1: like they want to walk up to each other and 89 00:05:20,236 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 1: start talking. But I think in this moment, people really 90 00:05:23,476 --> 00:05:25,596 Speaker 1: want like hugs and to be close to each other. 91 00:05:25,676 --> 00:05:29,356 Speaker 1: And it seems pretty crazy. It's so weird to see 92 00:05:29,396 --> 00:05:31,996 Speaker 1: people who are obviously struggling and you do you have 93 00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:34,836 Speaker 1: that impulse to reach out to them, to make contact, 94 00:05:34,836 --> 00:05:38,636 Speaker 1: to lay hands on, right, to comfort each other, and 95 00:05:39,396 --> 00:05:43,396 Speaker 1: we're being stripped of that possibility. It's really it really 96 00:05:43,436 --> 00:05:45,996 Speaker 1: does double down, I think on the damage of this 97 00:05:46,236 --> 00:05:50,676 Speaker 1: epidemic because it's already scary, it's already killing people and 98 00:05:50,756 --> 00:05:54,716 Speaker 1: scaring so many other people, but it also has the 99 00:05:54,716 --> 00:05:59,836 Speaker 1: potential to have this long term psychological mental health fallout 100 00:06:00,356 --> 00:06:03,476 Speaker 1: from this increase in isolation. I mean, we know that 101 00:06:03,636 --> 00:06:08,676 Speaker 1: loneliness is basically psychologically poisonous, right. It produces depression and 102 00:06:08,716 --> 00:06:12,796 Speaker 1: anxiety idea, It worsens our response to stress, It increases inflammation, 103 00:06:13,156 --> 00:06:16,596 Speaker 1: worsens our cardiovascular health. I mean, it damages us in 104 00:06:16,916 --> 00:06:20,716 Speaker 1: ways that are really quite long lasting. And so to 105 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:25,796 Speaker 1: add a loneliness epidemic to the viral epidemic we're already 106 00:06:25,836 --> 00:06:30,836 Speaker 1: living through is really you know, it's dangerous, it's tragic. Yeah, 107 00:06:30,916 --> 00:06:32,996 Speaker 1: I mean, loneliness is bad. But the flip side is 108 00:06:33,036 --> 00:06:35,876 Speaker 1: that social connection can heal us in these incredible ways. 109 00:06:35,876 --> 00:06:38,076 Speaker 1: So talk about some of the research that's shown how 110 00:06:38,076 --> 00:06:40,796 Speaker 1: powerful social connection can be even in times of like 111 00:06:40,996 --> 00:06:45,076 Speaker 1: physical and emotional trauma. I would say especially in those times. Right, So, 112 00:06:45,796 --> 00:06:48,836 Speaker 1: people when they're going through stress, if they feel as 113 00:06:48,876 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 1: though there are loved ones around them, people who care 114 00:06:51,876 --> 00:06:54,756 Speaker 1: for them, they are able to bounce back more quickly 115 00:06:54,796 --> 00:06:58,796 Speaker 1: from those stressors. They experience them as less psychologically damaging, 116 00:06:59,156 --> 00:07:03,036 Speaker 1: They recover from trauma more easily. There's even evidence from 117 00:07:03,116 --> 00:07:06,836 Speaker 1: the brain that when people go through pain, for instance, 118 00:07:06,836 --> 00:07:10,796 Speaker 1: like getting zapped with a painful electric that they experienced 119 00:07:10,796 --> 00:07:13,596 Speaker 1: those shocks as less painful if they're holding the hand 120 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:16,076 Speaker 1: of somebody who cares for them. Right, So, at a 121 00:07:16,116 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 1: physical and psychological level, that connection really buffers us against 122 00:07:21,476 --> 00:07:24,876 Speaker 1: suffering and against anxiety and against many of the experiences 123 00:07:24,876 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 1: that we're having right now. But an additional thing that's 124 00:07:26,876 --> 00:07:29,556 Speaker 1: really terrible about this virus is that it makes us 125 00:07:29,596 --> 00:07:31,716 Speaker 1: avoid our fellow man in a different way. Right, we 126 00:07:31,756 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 1: have to have this physical distance, But in some sense, 127 00:07:34,396 --> 00:07:36,276 Speaker 1: the scariest thing for me is that other people will 128 00:07:36,316 --> 00:07:38,756 Speaker 1: become a threat. It's it's like we're living in a 129 00:07:38,796 --> 00:07:42,236 Speaker 1: slow motion zombie movie, right. The people who you love, 130 00:07:42,316 --> 00:07:44,476 Speaker 1: for people who you typically would want to be around, 131 00:07:44,676 --> 00:07:46,236 Speaker 1: you have to kind of look at them and say, 132 00:07:46,916 --> 00:07:49,356 Speaker 1: are they one of the infected? Right? And it's it's 133 00:07:49,436 --> 00:07:52,236 Speaker 1: not a great feeling. I mean, I was. We went 134 00:07:52,316 --> 00:07:55,996 Speaker 1: to the grocery store and was panic shopping for toilet 135 00:07:55,996 --> 00:07:59,836 Speaker 1: paper like everyone else, and somebody sneezed in a crowded 136 00:07:59,876 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: aisle and it was like they were going to be 137 00:08:02,316 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 1: gang tackled, right. I mean, it's it's frightening because they 138 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:07,956 Speaker 1: are vulnerable people in all of our lives, and we 139 00:08:07,996 --> 00:08:10,396 Speaker 1: want to protect them, but in order to protect them, 140 00:08:10,396 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: basically the threat becomes other people. So, as you say, 141 00:08:14,356 --> 00:08:17,436 Speaker 1: it's not just that we're distanced, it's that we're fearing 142 00:08:17,516 --> 00:08:21,796 Speaker 1: each other. And as you know, this also can exacerbate 143 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:24,076 Speaker 1: some of the divisions that are already between us. There's 144 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:28,756 Speaker 1: been xenophobia and racism attached to some of the you know, 145 00:08:28,796 --> 00:08:31,156 Speaker 1: some of the ways that people are talking about this virus, 146 00:08:31,196 --> 00:08:34,556 Speaker 1: which often happens when people are scared, when they feel 147 00:08:34,556 --> 00:08:38,396 Speaker 1: as though they're anxious, they often brighten the lines between 148 00:08:38,476 --> 00:08:40,876 Speaker 1: us and them, which is, you know, and yet another 149 00:08:41,196 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 1: way that this outbreak can be psychologically damaging. The other 150 00:08:44,556 --> 00:08:46,436 Speaker 1: thing that's really awful about this virus is that the 151 00:08:46,476 --> 00:08:50,236 Speaker 1: people that are most physically susceptible to coronavirus also seem 152 00:08:50,316 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 1: to be the people that are most mentally susceptible to 153 00:08:52,876 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 1: things like loneliness. That's right, Yeah, and especially older adults 154 00:08:58,756 --> 00:09:02,556 Speaker 1: you know, suffer from an increase in loneliness and also 155 00:09:02,676 --> 00:09:06,596 Speaker 1: suffer more from the consequences of loneliness, including the sort 156 00:09:06,636 --> 00:09:10,996 Speaker 1: of added cardiovascular and immune risks. So, for instance, a 157 00:09:11,116 --> 00:09:17,036 Speaker 1: giant meta analysis recently demonstrated that sort of chronic, severe 158 00:09:17,076 --> 00:09:23,516 Speaker 1: loneliness among older adults was significantly increasing mortality among older adults. Right, 159 00:09:23,516 --> 00:09:26,996 Speaker 1: so we've got this really you know, possibility that feeling 160 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:30,716 Speaker 1: deeply isolated can actually shorten one's life, which again is 161 00:09:31,396 --> 00:09:34,956 Speaker 1: really difficult given that, you know, older adults in our 162 00:09:34,956 --> 00:09:37,196 Speaker 1: culture are getting this kind of double whammy, you know, 163 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:40,756 Speaker 1: the sort of both from the disease burden and from 164 00:09:40,796 --> 00:09:44,196 Speaker 1: the burden of isolation. So that's the problem. So many 165 00:09:44,236 --> 00:09:47,516 Speaker 1: of us are facing social isolation and the loneliness that 166 00:09:47,556 --> 00:09:50,276 Speaker 1: it brings. As I've said in previous editions of the 167 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:53,516 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab, loneliness is as bad for our physical health 168 00:09:53,716 --> 00:09:56,796 Speaker 1: as smoking fifteen cigarettes a day, which means that as 169 00:09:56,796 --> 00:09:59,996 Speaker 1: we isolate ourselves to fight this awful virus, we might 170 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:02,916 Speaker 1: be harming ourselves in a different way. And that's why 171 00:10:02,916 --> 00:10:05,956 Speaker 1: I was so hopeful after reading Jamil's article. He's come 172 00:10:06,036 --> 00:10:08,916 Speaker 1: up with some practical solutions, ones that he's implementing with 173 00:10:08,956 --> 00:10:11,716 Speaker 1: his own friends and family for how we can physically 174 00:10:11,716 --> 00:10:15,036 Speaker 1: isolate in a way that doesn't feel so socially isolated. 175 00:10:15,516 --> 00:10:21,876 Speaker 1: And I want to turn to those next. One of 176 00:10:21,876 --> 00:10:23,956 Speaker 1: the reasons I wanted to talk to Jamil so badly 177 00:10:24,236 --> 00:10:26,796 Speaker 1: and to share this conversation with you is that he's 178 00:10:26,796 --> 00:10:30,676 Speaker 1: surprisingly hopeful that we can continue our meaningful interactions in 179 00:10:30,716 --> 00:10:34,116 Speaker 1: a time of social distancing. I totally get how lonely 180 00:10:34,116 --> 00:10:36,796 Speaker 1: it feels to be isolated, but the great news is 181 00:10:36,796 --> 00:10:39,356 Speaker 1: that Jamille's work offers us some hope. I do think 182 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:41,396 Speaker 1: that this is going to be a hard time for 183 00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:43,436 Speaker 1: many people, and it's going to be a lonely time 184 00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:46,196 Speaker 1: for many people. But one thing that I'm trying to 185 00:10:46,236 --> 00:10:48,836 Speaker 1: remember myself and tell as many people as possible is 186 00:10:48,836 --> 00:10:53,236 Speaker 1: that you know, actually we're all going through something pretty similar. 187 00:10:53,876 --> 00:10:55,916 Speaker 1: You know, you might be hold up in your apartment, 188 00:10:55,956 --> 00:11:02,116 Speaker 1: working from home, feeling confused and scared and lonely, But 189 00:11:02,196 --> 00:11:04,396 Speaker 1: guess what, so are the other people who are normally 190 00:11:04,436 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 1: at your office. So is your third grade best friend, 191 00:11:07,956 --> 00:11:10,156 Speaker 1: you know, so is your cousin. Right, I mean, we 192 00:11:10,276 --> 00:11:13,596 Speaker 1: have more in common with more people than we usually do. 193 00:11:13,756 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 1: This is, in a way, a vast shared experience, and 194 00:11:17,236 --> 00:11:19,596 Speaker 1: if we could acknowledge it that way and try to 195 00:11:19,876 --> 00:11:22,676 Speaker 1: truly experience it together, I think that we'd be able 196 00:11:22,716 --> 00:11:26,316 Speaker 1: to cultivate more social connection than we realize. Right, when 197 00:11:26,396 --> 00:11:29,556 Speaker 1: you talk with somebody, even if both of you feel anxious. 198 00:11:29,876 --> 00:11:32,356 Speaker 1: A lot of things happen. One you realize that your 199 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:36,676 Speaker 1: experience is shared. You're not alone in feeling what you're feeling. 200 00:11:37,036 --> 00:11:40,916 Speaker 1: In fact, maybe that feeling brings you together. You express 201 00:11:41,036 --> 00:11:44,476 Speaker 1: care for one another, and you feel supported, and you 202 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:49,356 Speaker 1: feel able to support somebody else. Oftentimes, comforting someone else 203 00:11:49,756 --> 00:11:52,596 Speaker 1: is one of the best ways to be comforted yourself, 204 00:11:53,276 --> 00:11:57,276 Speaker 1: because in doing so, you locate a strength and calm 205 00:11:57,996 --> 00:12:00,476 Speaker 1: that you didn't realize you had for the benefit of 206 00:12:00,516 --> 00:12:03,036 Speaker 1: somebody else. I think we all share that instinct, but 207 00:12:03,036 --> 00:12:05,076 Speaker 1: then when we try to connect, we do it in 208 00:12:05,076 --> 00:12:07,916 Speaker 1: a way that provokes more anxiety. Like for me, I'm 209 00:12:07,956 --> 00:12:11,196 Speaker 1: panic scrolling, which makes me feel connected to the other 210 00:12:11,196 --> 00:12:14,436 Speaker 1: people on Facebook sort of, but it also really increases 211 00:12:14,436 --> 00:12:17,516 Speaker 1: our anxiety. Yeah, I think you're totally right. I've panic 212 00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:21,076 Speaker 1: scroll the fair amount myself recently. Panic scrolling, first of all, 213 00:12:21,236 --> 00:12:26,796 Speaker 1: is an overload of really anxiety provoking information all at once, 214 00:12:26,916 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 1: like a tsunami of just distressing facts and figures. But 215 00:12:32,356 --> 00:12:34,236 Speaker 1: I do think that there are ways that we can 216 00:12:34,596 --> 00:12:39,396 Speaker 1: more intentionally engage in ways that build social connection rather 217 00:12:39,476 --> 00:12:42,836 Speaker 1: than just making us feel even more alone and worked up. 218 00:12:42,876 --> 00:12:45,156 Speaker 1: And I think ironically right. A lot of us have 219 00:12:45,236 --> 00:12:49,156 Speaker 1: spent most of the twenty first century blaming technology for 220 00:12:49,356 --> 00:12:52,956 Speaker 1: like tearing apart our social fabric, and right now it 221 00:12:53,076 --> 00:12:57,236 Speaker 1: might be our best shot for keeping that social fabric together. Right. 222 00:12:57,276 --> 00:12:59,796 Speaker 1: So I write a lot in my book about how 223 00:12:59,876 --> 00:13:02,956 Speaker 1: technology can build empathy, and a lot of it really 224 00:13:02,996 --> 00:13:05,716 Speaker 1: depends on the way that we use it. So around 225 00:13:06,356 --> 00:13:09,516 Speaker 1: moments like this, around the coronavirus and social distancing, one 226 00:13:09,556 --> 00:13:11,156 Speaker 1: thing that I think we could really try to pay 227 00:13:11,156 --> 00:13:14,036 Speaker 1: attention to is how can we use technology to have 228 00:13:14,196 --> 00:13:18,196 Speaker 1: the types of interactions that we would have in person? Right? 229 00:13:18,196 --> 00:13:21,516 Speaker 1: So we don't normally just scroll through each other as minds, right, 230 00:13:21,596 --> 00:13:25,596 Speaker 1: We interact live and try to share experiences together. Right. 231 00:13:25,596 --> 00:13:30,116 Speaker 1: So I think that FaceTime zoom in these moments are terrific, right, 232 00:13:30,236 --> 00:13:33,236 Speaker 1: But not just using those technologies to like check in 233 00:13:33,316 --> 00:13:36,156 Speaker 1: and say, ask people how they're doing, We should do that, 234 00:13:36,716 --> 00:13:39,756 Speaker 1: but also just to hang around together, right. I mean, 235 00:13:40,036 --> 00:13:42,796 Speaker 1: when we have a research meeting in person, right, we 236 00:13:42,836 --> 00:13:46,076 Speaker 1: don't just talk about work and then leave. We dawdle, 237 00:13:46,236 --> 00:13:49,676 Speaker 1: you know, we kibbits, We goof off together, and those 238 00:13:50,036 --> 00:13:53,276 Speaker 1: in between moments are what matter most sometimes to our 239 00:13:53,356 --> 00:13:56,236 Speaker 1: sense of connection. To each other. So my thing has been, 240 00:13:56,596 --> 00:14:00,116 Speaker 1: let's try to get online and do nothing together, watch 241 00:14:00,116 --> 00:14:04,276 Speaker 1: a TV show with your cousin, or or go on 242 00:14:04,436 --> 00:14:07,836 Speaker 1: FaceTime with somebody and make the same meal together and 243 00:14:07,836 --> 00:14:10,276 Speaker 1: then drink some wine together. Right. I mean my lab, 244 00:14:10,556 --> 00:14:12,436 Speaker 1: you know, we have a coffee room where we all 245 00:14:12,636 --> 00:14:14,796 Speaker 1: used to just kind of hang out, and so we've 246 00:14:14,876 --> 00:14:17,676 Speaker 1: created a Zoom channel that's just called the coffee room. Right, 247 00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:19,716 Speaker 1: It's just for people to take a break together. Right. 248 00:14:19,716 --> 00:14:22,876 Speaker 1: So I think that if we can use technology to 249 00:14:22,996 --> 00:14:26,436 Speaker 1: recreate at least some of the informality and sense of 250 00:14:26,476 --> 00:14:30,156 Speaker 1: togetherness we have in the analog world, that would be 251 00:14:30,196 --> 00:14:33,356 Speaker 1: one really helpful strategy. What's so funny about this idea 252 00:14:33,396 --> 00:14:35,316 Speaker 1: to do more of our social events via Zoom and 253 00:14:35,356 --> 00:14:37,956 Speaker 1: things like that is that our workplaces have figured it out. Right. 254 00:14:37,996 --> 00:14:41,396 Speaker 1: We instantly translate to doing like you know, distance learning 255 00:14:41,476 --> 00:14:43,956 Speaker 1: or kind of distance like meetings, But we forget that 256 00:14:43,956 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 1: we can do our social events at distance too. I 257 00:14:46,916 --> 00:14:49,756 Speaker 1: know it doesn't feel as natural, right, I mean, I 258 00:14:49,756 --> 00:14:54,196 Speaker 1: think that we're used to using technology to work, not 259 00:14:54,316 --> 00:14:56,756 Speaker 1: to live, and I think a lot of us have 260 00:14:56,876 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 1: the stereotype that technology is kind of anti social and 261 00:15:00,596 --> 00:15:02,956 Speaker 1: I think that this moment is going to require us 262 00:15:02,956 --> 00:15:05,876 Speaker 1: to really try to get over that perception and challenge 263 00:15:05,876 --> 00:15:08,156 Speaker 1: it and push on it and see how much we 264 00:15:08,236 --> 00:15:11,636 Speaker 1: can just be there with each other online. I mean, 265 00:15:11,676 --> 00:15:14,516 Speaker 1: this even goes for kids, right, I mean, so schools 266 00:15:14,516 --> 00:15:16,356 Speaker 1: are closing and a lot of us are going to 267 00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:19,876 Speaker 1: be hang out with our kids while their eyesolated too, 268 00:15:19,916 --> 00:15:21,956 Speaker 1: And that's I mean, if it's hard for us, imagine 269 00:15:21,956 --> 00:15:24,756 Speaker 1: how hard it is for them. Right. Kids depend on 270 00:15:24,796 --> 00:15:27,996 Speaker 1: their social interactions to like build their sense of self. So, 271 00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:29,956 Speaker 1: I mean, one thing that we're doing is with some 272 00:15:29,996 --> 00:15:32,356 Speaker 1: of our kids really good friends, we're buying the same 273 00:15:33,236 --> 00:15:35,116 Speaker 1: our kids are very young, so we're buying the same 274 00:15:35,116 --> 00:15:37,996 Speaker 1: coloring books, we're buying the same games, and we're going 275 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:40,836 Speaker 1: to try to see whether we can do FaceTime play dates, 276 00:15:40,876 --> 00:15:44,676 Speaker 1: where again, it's a coactivity. It's not just talking because 277 00:15:44,676 --> 00:15:46,756 Speaker 1: you know, a two year old and another two year 278 00:15:46,796 --> 00:15:49,956 Speaker 1: old aren't necessarily going to make scintillating conversation for hours, 279 00:15:49,996 --> 00:15:53,156 Speaker 1: but maybe they can compare what colors they choose to 280 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:56,356 Speaker 1: draw the unicorn that they're working on. Yeah, but the 281 00:15:56,396 --> 00:15:59,356 Speaker 1: adults still have to make scintilating conversation either, right, I mean, 282 00:15:59,396 --> 00:16:01,156 Speaker 1: you forget that you can just PLoP down and like 283 00:16:01,156 --> 00:16:05,236 Speaker 1: Watchmpaul's drag race with someone else, but just over FaceTime exactly. Yeah, 284 00:16:05,276 --> 00:16:08,316 Speaker 1: And I think we should lower our expectations from Maybe 285 00:16:08,356 --> 00:16:11,316 Speaker 1: that's another issue with online interaction is we don't just 286 00:16:11,396 --> 00:16:14,876 Speaker 1: overprofessionalize it, we overpressure it. We feel as though we 287 00:16:14,876 --> 00:16:17,836 Speaker 1: should only be interacting so long as there's something to say. 288 00:16:17,916 --> 00:16:20,476 Speaker 1: But that's not what we do in real life. So 289 00:16:20,556 --> 00:16:23,676 Speaker 1: I just want us to bring the casualness in the 290 00:16:23,756 --> 00:16:28,356 Speaker 1: informality of life offline into our technological space. And I 291 00:16:28,356 --> 00:16:30,236 Speaker 1: think that's a really great shot we have for retaining 292 00:16:30,276 --> 00:16:32,716 Speaker 1: connection right now. So what do we know scientifically about 293 00:16:32,716 --> 00:16:35,356 Speaker 1: whether or not this technology works. Is there research showing 294 00:16:35,396 --> 00:16:37,796 Speaker 1: that you can get this kind of empathic connection from 295 00:16:37,796 --> 00:16:40,276 Speaker 1: people online just as much as in real life. Yeah, 296 00:16:40,316 --> 00:16:43,156 Speaker 1: I mean I think that again, we have stereotypes about 297 00:16:43,196 --> 00:16:46,916 Speaker 1: online connections and we feel as though they're necessarily shallow, 298 00:16:47,276 --> 00:16:50,836 Speaker 1: or it's just a bunch of people posting cpatne selfees 299 00:16:51,076 --> 00:16:54,076 Speaker 1: or pictures of their last meal or whatever. But there's 300 00:16:54,276 --> 00:16:58,116 Speaker 1: a long tradition of people using the Internet to find real, 301 00:16:58,276 --> 00:17:02,396 Speaker 1: deep connections, maybe connections they can't find offline. So One 302 00:17:02,396 --> 00:17:04,436 Speaker 1: example of this that I write about in my book 303 00:17:04,516 --> 00:17:07,996 Speaker 1: is rare illness communities. So it turns out that rare 304 00:17:08,036 --> 00:17:10,876 Speaker 1: illnesses are any illness that affects less than one in 305 00:17:10,996 --> 00:17:14,556 Speaker 1: one thousand people, But there are hundreds of rare illnesses, 306 00:17:14,796 --> 00:17:19,876 Speaker 1: which means paradoxically, some like big proportion of our community 307 00:17:20,236 --> 00:17:23,556 Speaker 1: has an illness where their friends and neighbors don't know 308 00:17:23,676 --> 00:17:27,076 Speaker 1: much about that illness and don't share their experiences. Some 309 00:17:27,156 --> 00:17:29,956 Speaker 1: of those folks also have to self quarantine for reasons 310 00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:31,676 Speaker 1: that have to do with those illnesses, so they can 311 00:17:31,716 --> 00:17:35,516 Speaker 1: be extremely isolated. But many of those folks take to 312 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:40,556 Speaker 1: online communities like Facebook groups or standalone websites like rare 313 00:17:40,636 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 1: connect dot org, And there's a lot of evidence that 314 00:17:43,556 --> 00:17:46,836 Speaker 1: on those communities, people don't just share like information about 315 00:17:46,876 --> 00:17:49,676 Speaker 1: the latest treatments or whatever. They share their stories and 316 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:54,036 Speaker 1: it's an opportunity for them to feel seen, And you 317 00:17:54,076 --> 00:17:57,236 Speaker 1: can think of them as basically oacs of empathy in 318 00:17:57,316 --> 00:18:00,396 Speaker 1: a desert of connection for a lot of people. And 319 00:18:00,436 --> 00:18:02,076 Speaker 1: it's not just people with illnesses. There are a lot 320 00:18:02,156 --> 00:18:04,076 Speaker 1: of us who have parts of our identity that we 321 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:07,476 Speaker 1: don't feel comfortable sharing with the people in our lives, 322 00:18:07,556 --> 00:18:12,156 Speaker 1: and ironically, the nanimity of being online actually makes some 323 00:18:12,236 --> 00:18:16,036 Speaker 1: people feel free to express vulnerabilities that they don't feel 324 00:18:16,036 --> 00:18:18,636 Speaker 1: like they can talk about in other settings. So there 325 00:18:18,716 --> 00:18:22,116 Speaker 1: is a tradition of real, true, and deep empathy on 326 00:18:22,156 --> 00:18:24,276 Speaker 1: the internet. It's one that we will all have to 327 00:18:24,316 --> 00:18:27,076 Speaker 1: tap into more. Now you've seen examples of this even 328 00:18:27,116 --> 00:18:29,676 Speaker 1: at your university, where folks are using technology to bring 329 00:18:29,756 --> 00:18:32,756 Speaker 1: students together. That's right. Yeah, So I teach a little 330 00:18:32,836 --> 00:18:36,516 Speaker 1: seminar for Stanford freshmen called Becoming Kinder, and it's all 331 00:18:36,516 --> 00:18:41,716 Speaker 1: about designing experiences and interventions to help people tap into 332 00:18:41,756 --> 00:18:46,596 Speaker 1: their really deep seated desire to help with and connect 333 00:18:46,596 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 1: with one another. And so, of course, when coronavirus hid 334 00:18:49,916 --> 00:18:52,116 Speaker 1: and we were all meeting by zoom, the first thing 335 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:54,156 Speaker 1: we were talking about is how do we recover this? 336 00:18:54,236 --> 00:18:57,196 Speaker 1: And they spontaneously said, well, you know what, we eat 337 00:18:57,236 --> 00:18:59,156 Speaker 1: together all the time? You know, the dining halls are 338 00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:03,436 Speaker 1: sort of the arteries of social life on a college campus. 339 00:19:04,196 --> 00:19:06,596 Speaker 1: Why do we need to be eating alone just because 340 00:19:06,596 --> 00:19:08,996 Speaker 1: we're in different parts of the country. So they've now 341 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:13,356 Speaker 1: created but it's awesome. I mean, they've created dining halls 342 00:19:13,356 --> 00:19:16,196 Speaker 1: that are virtual and They've created dorm lounges that are 343 00:19:16,276 --> 00:19:19,156 Speaker 1: virtual as well, so they actually do different types of 344 00:19:19,196 --> 00:19:22,996 Speaker 1: hanging out in different in different places. I mean, this 345 00:19:23,076 --> 00:19:25,996 Speaker 1: coronavirus thing is incredibly scary, both in terms of our 346 00:19:25,996 --> 00:19:28,116 Speaker 1: physical health but also in terms of our mental health. 347 00:19:28,116 --> 00:19:30,716 Speaker 1: Are you hopeful that we can really use these technologies 348 00:19:30,716 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 1: to bring ourselves together in the scary time? I mean, look, 349 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:35,596 Speaker 1: this is a scary time. It will continue to be 350 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:38,396 Speaker 1: scary and it will be sad, and I think that 351 00:19:38,876 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that we can work together. I'm always hopeful 352 00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:45,076 Speaker 1: that we can work together. That's what our species is 353 00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:47,156 Speaker 1: best at, and I think that we can work together 354 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:49,276 Speaker 1: at this as well. I think it will be important 355 00:19:49,276 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 1: to do a couple of things. One to bring the 356 00:19:52,716 --> 00:19:57,116 Speaker 1: most vulnerable people into these conversations. Right, So, my kids 357 00:19:57,116 --> 00:20:00,276 Speaker 1: are digital natives, my college students are digital natives, my 358 00:20:00,356 --> 00:20:03,876 Speaker 1: parents are not. And older people are not just the 359 00:20:03,876 --> 00:20:07,916 Speaker 1: most susceptible to really dangerous symptoms from coronavirus, they're the 360 00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:10,196 Speaker 1: most susceptible to sellation. So I think it's going to 361 00:20:10,236 --> 00:20:12,636 Speaker 1: be important for us to be inclusive in the way 362 00:20:12,676 --> 00:20:17,556 Speaker 1: that we generate whatever digital or other types of interactions 363 00:20:17,716 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 1: we can manage. There's one more point that I want 364 00:20:20,236 --> 00:20:23,196 Speaker 1: to make, which is that you know, as you said earlier, 365 00:20:24,196 --> 00:20:26,196 Speaker 1: one of the tough things about an epidemic is that 366 00:20:26,356 --> 00:20:29,756 Speaker 1: we have this desire to be kind to help others 367 00:20:30,076 --> 00:20:33,756 Speaker 1: when we need to, when when we're going through something 368 00:20:33,756 --> 00:20:37,796 Speaker 1: together that allows us to assert community, to gain control 369 00:20:37,996 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 1: in a time that we otherwise feel helpless. And one 370 00:20:40,916 --> 00:20:42,636 Speaker 1: of the things that it is hard about this moment 371 00:20:42,676 --> 00:20:44,876 Speaker 1: is that it's hard to find ways to help other people. 372 00:20:45,596 --> 00:20:48,996 Speaker 1: But I want us to remember something. Social distancing from 373 00:20:49,036 --> 00:20:51,476 Speaker 1: many of us is something that we're doing to be 374 00:20:51,596 --> 00:20:56,316 Speaker 1: kind to others. Very young, healthy people don't have that 375 00:20:56,436 --> 00:21:00,156 Speaker 1: high a risk of really developing severe symptoms from coronavirus, 376 00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:04,156 Speaker 1: so their decision to engage in social distancing is really 377 00:21:04,156 --> 00:21:08,436 Speaker 1: a way to protect vulnerable individuals in our community. So 378 00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 1: I think that one thing we can do is just 379 00:21:10,356 --> 00:21:13,996 Speaker 1: remember that even our choice to be alone is something 380 00:21:13,996 --> 00:21:16,796 Speaker 1: that we're doing together, and it's something that we're doing 381 00:21:16,836 --> 00:21:21,476 Speaker 1: for each other. I hope this conversation has given you 382 00:21:21,516 --> 00:21:24,636 Speaker 1: some practical tips for fighting loneliness and feeling more connected 383 00:21:24,676 --> 00:21:27,476 Speaker 1: in this tough time. Talking to Jamille over a video 384 00:21:27,476 --> 00:21:29,956 Speaker 1: call certainly made a rough day brighter for me, and 385 00:21:29,996 --> 00:21:32,156 Speaker 1: so I'm super grateful that he took the time to connect. 386 00:21:32,756 --> 00:21:35,276 Speaker 1: We'll return for another special episode of The Happiness Lab 387 00:21:35,396 --> 00:21:37,836 Speaker 1: really soon because I want to bring you even more 388 00:21:37,876 --> 00:21:41,396 Speaker 1: science back tips for getting through this worrying time. I 389 00:21:41,516 --> 00:21:43,556 Speaker 1: plan to talk with leading experts as often as I 390 00:21:43,596 --> 00:21:45,796 Speaker 1: can over the coming weeks and to share all their 391 00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:48,956 Speaker 1: important evidence back advice with you. But I also want 392 00:21:48,956 --> 00:21:50,916 Speaker 1: to be sure we're tackling all the big challenges you're 393 00:21:50,916 --> 00:21:53,636 Speaker 1: facing during this pandemic. So if there's a question or 394 00:21:53,676 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 1: topic you think The Happiness Lab needs to address in 395 00:21:55,836 --> 00:21:59,436 Speaker 1: the coming weeks, let me know. Tweet us at Laurie 396 00:21:59,476 --> 00:22:03,236 Speaker 1: Santo's or at Pushkin Pods, and please include the hashtag 397 00:22:03,316 --> 00:22:08,116 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab Pod. Until then, stay safe. The Happiness Lab 398 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:11,836 Speaker 1: will be back soon. The Happiness Lab is made by me, 399 00:22:12,076 --> 00:22:15,476 Speaker 1: doctor Laurie Santos. It's produced and co written by Ryan Dilley. 400 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:19,676 Speaker 1: Our original music is by Zachary Silver. We're a Pushkin podcast, 401 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 1: so special thanks go to Jacob Weisberg, Miel LaBelle, Heather Faine, 402 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:30,276 Speaker 1: Carli mcgliori, Julia Barton, and the rest of the team.