1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and what can we 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: steffone ever told your protection of ByHeart Radio. 3 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 2: We are back with the part two of this look 4 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: into Christianity and the marginalized community, and you all are 5 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 2: just stretching out it is. 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 3: It is stretching out as sure. Yeah. 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,319 Speaker 2: In the last episode, if you did listen and want 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 2: to recap, we did a quick overview on women and 9 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 2: marginalized communities, talking about statistics, breaking down of women in religion, 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: and even deconstruction. We talked about the history of it 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: a little bit and for those who didn't listen, you 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: don't really have to because even though it's a part two, 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: it kind of does seem to all separate, but maybe 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 2: you should go back and listen just to kind of 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 2: get out, you know, a quick basis right the groundwork 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: for it, and also shout out to listener and friend 17 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 2: of the show, ray I Hope I said that right, 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 2: who actually sent us a message reminding me that Acts 19 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 2: was not written by Paul. It was written by Luke, 20 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: who also wrote the Gospel of Luke. 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 3: So just enough why I did get that wrong. 22 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 2: But it does have the beginning story of uh huh, 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: which is what got into my brain. But you know, 24 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: we like to clarify. Corrections are always good, please let 25 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: us know. And you know what, today we're kind of 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: having a throwback because when I started this podcast with 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: you as just a guest, we did a whole trauma 28 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: mini series. It was a lot, and so we're kind 29 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: of throwing it back with this religious trauma. However, it 30 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: is a very long conversation and though we will define 31 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: what it is and kind of give you a rundown 32 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: of what that looks like, symptoms all of that, we 33 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: don't talk about the effects of it yet because we 34 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: have so much to cover. So there's going to be 35 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: a part three and probably apart four, maybe a part five, 36 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: who knows, there's a lot, there's a lot. And with 37 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: this we do want to put a content warning. Of course, 38 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about religious trauma in general. We 39 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: do talk about roles of women. We're not getting into 40 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: the nitty gritty, but eventually we will be talking about 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: domestic violence, sexual violence, hate language towards the queer community 42 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: and all of that. So just beware, we're going to 43 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: put that at the top. And again another we're not 44 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: trying to detegrate Christianity. Please understand what we're looking at 45 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: is the dark side when it does affect women and 46 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 2: why women are leaving and marginalized community are leaving Christianity 47 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: behind and it is growing, as we said at the 48 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: first episode, the amount of people who are leaving. 49 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 3: So there you go. Content warning. 50 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: Yes, I actually just saw because as we record this, 51 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: it was a big fast over just happened, esear just happens, 52 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: And I just saw a big article on CNN about 53 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: what is going on with the church. 54 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 3: Everyone's leaving up. Well, here we are to give you. 55 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: Why, and yes, we are focusing mainly on Western Christianity. 56 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: Just a note also, I've never heard this term, so 57 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: let's get into it. What are we talking about? And 58 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: we say religious trauma syndrome. This term was first coined 59 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: by psychologist Marlene Winnell. I hope I'm not butchering that 60 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven, but the basis of it has been 61 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: around much earlier than that, much longer than that. And 62 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: as we know, sometimes when we have a name or 63 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: a label for something, it can help not only understand 64 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: the type of trauma that someone might be going through, 65 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: about how to work through those types of trauma, and 66 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: doctor Renelle defines it as quote religious trauma syndrome is 67 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: the condition experienced by people who are struggling with leaving 68 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: an authoritarian, dogmatic religion and coping with the damage of indoctrination. 69 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: They may be going through the shattering of a personally 70 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: meaningful face and or breaking away from a controlling community 71 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: and lifestyle. RTS is a function of both the chronic 72 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: abuses of harmful religion and the impact of severing one's 73 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: connection with one's faith. It can be compared to a 74 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: combination of PTSD and complex PTSD or CPTSD, right. 75 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: And we've talked about that before and again we do 76 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: want to emphasize this as harmful religion. 77 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 78 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 3: That is the keynote here. 79 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: So what does that look like? It's similar to other 80 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: types of trauma. So here are some cognitive symptoms such 81 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: as issues with self esteem and self worth, perfectionism, poor 82 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: critical thinking, confusion, some emotional symptoms depression, grief, loneliness, loss 83 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 2: of meaning, social symptoms, loss of network, family rupture, social awkwardness. 84 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 2: And ye know this is describing me to a tea 85 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: and how that I'm having a moment. Cultural symptoms difficulty belonging, 86 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 2: information gap and unfamiliarity with the secular world. And I 87 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: really thought that was important to put in there because 88 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: if you are from a religious background, you know exactly 89 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: what that means. I any I did not watch secular movies, 90 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: and I say secular meaning they weren't religious. When I 91 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 2: say I did not watch any TV for a full 92 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: couple of years, I had no idea. 93 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 3: What's going on in the world. And I was like, 94 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: what was that? Was this? 95 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: I had a good friend of mine in college that 96 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: did it throughout not only not only college, but high school, 97 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 2: and so whenever we'd had any references like music, she 98 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: had no clue what was going on. This. It was 99 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: such a disruption. And for me coming out of that, 100 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 2: I was like, oh man, I missed a lie. 101 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 3: I don't know. I am not cool with the kids anymore. 102 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 3: And I was a kid. 103 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: Implying that you once were. 104 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: It wasn't No, I'm just kidding. 105 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: Okay, So let's look at some of the causes of rts. 106 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: According to the article written by doctor Wenell, quote authoritarianism 107 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: coupled with toxic theology, which is received and reinforced at church, school, 108 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: and home, results in the following. Suppression of normal child development. Cognitive, social, emotional, 109 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: moral stages are arrested, damage to normal thinking and feeling abilities. 110 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: Information is limited and controlled, dysfunctional beliefs taught, independent thinking, 111 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: condemned feelings condemned external ocus of control. Knowledge is revealed, 112 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 1: not discovered. Hierarchy of authority enforced self not a reliable 113 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: or good source. Physical and sexual abuse, patriarchal power, unhealthy 114 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: sexual views, punishment used as for discipline. 115 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: And you know, I found that interesting when we have 116 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: this category about sexual abuse and under it talks about 117 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: unhealthy sexual abuse, and we talked about it in our 118 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: Purity episode and we're gonna go review it. We're gonna 119 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: go back come back to it in the next episode 120 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: because I think it's still important that we address it, 121 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: but that it could be harmful and a formative emotional 122 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 2: abuse at the very least, because there's so much fear 123 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 2: inundated with it that it causes a lot of problems, 124 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: a lot of psychological problems. I know, specifically women who 125 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: had a lot of sexual dysfunction because of their association 126 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: to how dirty sex could be or are their unhealthy 127 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: views of sex. So I really think that's important that 128 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: we talk about that when we come back later. But again, 129 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: I just wanted to note that. And speaking of abuse, 130 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: let's go ahead and define religious and spiritual abuse before 131 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: we go any further. According to one wellness side, it 132 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: is quote when someone uses religious teachings, beliefs, or practices 133 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: for their own purpose and design to gain or maintain 134 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: power and control over others. I think that's so important 135 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 2: that we remember what this looks like about that power. 136 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: When we talk about abuse, we always talk about there's 137 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: a level of power there, and there is that with 138 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 2: the religious and spiritual aspect. And while we're at it, 139 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: because I don't think we did this last time, let's 140 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: define religion and spirituality. Yeah, like I said, we forgot 141 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: the first time round. So according to Merriam Webster, religion 142 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: is defined as quote a personal set of institutionalized system 143 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. Also the service and 144 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 2: worship of God or the supernatural, or commitment or devotion 145 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: to religious faith or observance. And then spirituality is defined 146 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 2: as quote something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the 147 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: church or to a cleric as such, clergy sensitivity or attachment. 148 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 3: Two religious values. 149 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: Okay, now got that back out of the way, So 150 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: let's go back to the trauma part. 151 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: Right, okay, And religious and spiritual trauma can manifest in 152 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: different ways, for example, using religious beliefs to control aspects 153 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: of your personal life including behavior, what you wear, who 154 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: you date and who you do or don't have sex with, 155 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: what job you have, how you parents, your finances, facing 156 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: criticism or punishment for questioning beliefs, practices, facing criticism or punishment, 157 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: or reporting mistreatment or incidents of abuse, minimizing our ridiculing 158 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: mental health symptoms as quote sinfolds and moon it or 159 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: weak faith. 160 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 2: Right, And again we're going to come back to this 161 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: because I think especially when we talk about mental health 162 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: for the longest time, and I was told this myself 163 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: when I was going through my suicidal ideation and my 164 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: really dark times, that I wasn't praying enough and there 165 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: was a level of shame that was placed onto me 166 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 2: that I would talk to other people about that darkness 167 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: instead of talking to God or just keeping it to myself. 168 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: So again we're going to come back to that. And 169 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: then yeah, we've definitely seen that whole conversation of their 170 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: possessed or the devils in them. 171 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And as doctor Wornell wrote about the psychic 172 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: abuse quote, the doctrines of original sin and internal damnation 173 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: caused the most psychological distress by creating the ultimate double blind. 174 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: You're guilty and responsible and faced internal punishment, yet you 175 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: have no ability to do anything about it. These are 176 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: teachings of fundamentalist Christianity. However, other authoritarian religions have equally 177 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: toxic doctrines. You must conform to a mental test of 178 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: believing in an external, unseen source for salvation and maintain 179 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: the state of belief until death. You cannot ever stop 180 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: sinning altogether, so you must continue to confess and be forgiven, 181 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: hoping that you have met the criteria, despite complete lack 182 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: of feedback about whether you will actually make it to heaven. 183 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: Salvation is not a free gift after all. For the 184 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: sincere believer, this results in an unending cycle of shame 185 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: and relief. 186 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 2: Yes, that is the constant. And again, just like she said, 187 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: it's not just Christianity that we see this in. It 188 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 2: is definitely across the lines of different types of faith 189 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: and different beliefs. Again, we are talking specifically about Christianity 190 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: in our episode but what she's talking about with the 191 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: religious trauma syndrome, that could be any religion. And from 192 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 2: that wellness article we mentioned earlier, here are some examples 193 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: of religious trauma and we're going to quote them all 194 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: because I think it's important, because I. 195 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 3: Think it's going to hit with a lot of people. 196 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 3: That hit me a lot. 197 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: You are confused about what you are being taught and 198 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 2: are scared or uncomfortable with voicing. 199 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 3: Questions for your beliefs. 200 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 2: You attack, dismiss, or shame yourself if you have a 201 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 2: differing belief or question your beliefs. You are terrified of death, evil, 202 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 2: the rapture, the devil, and hell. You may have nightmares 203 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: or reoccurring fears of when the world will end and 204 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 2: what will happen after. You may dissociate or feel separated 205 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: from your body and emotions due to fear of connecting 206 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: with emotions and constant focusing outward to others and God. 207 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 2: You constantly criticize and judge yourself and others due to 208 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 2: fear of sin and fear of upsetting God. You are 209 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: afraid of being led astray that's been quotes by the 210 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: devil or evil, and so you become afraid or critical 211 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 2: of the quote outside world, secular world. You feel unable 212 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: to or uncomfortable with saying no to others. 213 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: And also women, you might be afraid that your body 214 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: is bad and others should not look at you think 215 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: you're beautiful into that it is your responsibility to make 216 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: sure that doesn't happen. Men, and you might be afraid 217 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: to get too close to one because then you will 218 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: fall into sin by lusting after her, and then you 219 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: will have to marry her. You struggle to trust your thoughts, feelings, 220 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: and intuition because you have been taught the body is 221 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: wrong or bad. You attack, dismiss, or alienate others who 222 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: do not believe the same way you do. 223 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: Right and again, like we've left that all in there, 224 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: and I'm sure there's other things that we could add 225 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 2: on to that would explain it even deeper or go 226 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: into the feelings or the fear. The fear is the 227 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 2: biggest part to a lot of this, obviously, and these 228 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: are some of the most dangerous things that can happen 229 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: which could cause bodily harmed others and or some way 230 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: of overpowering others because of the spear. When we talked 231 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: about the shootings that happened in Atlanta, the Atlanta spaw shootings. 232 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 3: That's exactly what happened. 233 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: He was in so much fear of sinning that this 234 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: is what his solution was. Because they were apart, These 235 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 2: women were a part of his sin. He would rather 236 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 2: kill and for some reason that outweighed the whole. Thou 237 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 2: shalt thou murder? 238 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 3: Apparently, right, right, right, right, Yeah. 239 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: We also want to take a minute to look at 240 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: a different term coined by Reba Riley called post traumatic 241 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: church syndrome. Here's a quote from her interview with The 242 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: National Catholic Reporter. Post traumatic church syndrome is the term 243 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: I made up to describe my spiritual injuries after I 244 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: left my faith in my early twenties. I defined PTCs 245 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: as one a condition of spiritual injury that occurs as 246 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: the results of religion, faith and or the losing, leaving, 247 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: or breaking thereof. Two the vile, noxious, and otherwise foul 248 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: aftermath of set injury, and three the serious term intended 249 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: to aid serious spiritual healing without taking itself too seriously 250 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: in the process. In another interview with Time, she says 251 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: people who leave or are left by their faith lose 252 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: a lot more than a place to go on Sunday morning. 253 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: They lose relationships with family and friends, social status, tribal approval, 254 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: self esteem. They lose their God, their identity, their certainty, 255 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: their gravity. I know because I lost all of these things. 256 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 3: Right and honestly, there's so much to be said. 257 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,359 Speaker 2: So she wrote a whole book based on her experience 258 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: and her coining this term. 259 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 3: But it's true. I've talked about it before. 260 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: When I walked away from what I thought and believed 261 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: and what I thought was my quote unquote calling, it 262 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: felt like a piece of me had been ripped out 263 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 2: of me. It felt like either a death or a 264 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: huge divorce essentially, because it took out part of my identity. 265 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 3: Again, it was a third. 266 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: It was a like a double edged sword in that 267 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: being an adoptee and being told from the day that 268 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: I arrived in the US that God saved me for 269 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: this purpose, and this purpose was to serve others to 270 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 2: tell about Jesus, essentially, because I had to be grateful 271 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 2: that I was saved physically and spiritually. And it was 272 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: devastating when I felt that falling apart, when I felt 273 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: things falling apart, when I came out and realized the 274 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 2: things that were told to me was love people were 275 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 2: using as a weapon, and especially coming in here, I'm like, 276 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 2: my whole ideal and I think this is to me 277 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: being real, literal. I cannot help being literal in that 278 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 2: if I'm actually going to help people, then I need 279 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: to truly help people, So being a social worker, being 280 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: an advocate, but then even not being able to do 281 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: anything because there were roadblocks, and there are politics, and 282 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: it was politics based in church and Christianity, and then 283 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: on top of that la some of the scriptures saying 284 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: people were going to hell because of who they were 285 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: created to be, when I was similar to that. My 286 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: personality was a very strong, independent woman. That is not 287 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 2: what I was taught. It was a good thing, and 288 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 2: I was ashamed. And then finding leadership that was like, 289 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, why would I follow you? You were 290 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: ridiculous and you don't know what you're doing. Just because 291 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: you have a penis why should I trust you more? 292 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 2: And it was devastating to see that, and it felt 293 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 2: like I had lost an entire chunk of my life, 294 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 2: if not the whole existence of my life, and trying 295 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 2: to start over felt impossible. 296 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 3: So it made a lot of sense in. 297 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 2: That, of course, there's an amazing thing when you heal 298 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 2: and grow out of it and do what you need 299 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 2: to on your own and finding your own spirituality. 300 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 3: Of course, and I said that in the first episode. 301 00:17:53,040 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: I'm not completely atheist in that I don't believe in whatever, 302 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,959 Speaker 2: the karma that you know, the greater good, whatever. I 303 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: want to know. I want to think that there is 304 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: a bigger purpose. Of course, Do I believe what I 305 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 2: believed back then? No? 306 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 3: Could I? Ever? I don't think so. 307 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: It is it's been too much and the things that 308 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 2: I've seen again that faced all those fears. 309 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 3: And showed me that you could not question. 310 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: How is this big deity so fragile that you cannot 311 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 2: ask questions? It was a whole whole part of me 312 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: that felt lost, and it's still I still struggle with 313 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 2: it today. Obviously I've been talking about it. We've been 314 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 2: talking about it. How it really put a giant wedge 315 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 2: between people that I've known all my life for most 316 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: of my life, or those who I'm supposed to look 317 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: up to. 318 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 3: And it's been a struggle. 319 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 2: It's been very isolating, and it's interesting to see because 320 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: now I see femily members of people who are younger 321 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 2: than me going do that same thing, and and I 322 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: hate that for them, but they have to go through 323 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: it themselves before they understand what it is. 324 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 3: But yes, I just wanted to share that. 325 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: Moving on outside of my sad stories, what does this 326 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 2: mean for women and the marginalized community? What does religious 327 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 2: trauma look for those who are already seen as not 328 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 2: worth as much? Right in one article for Life Afterdogma 329 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: dot com and by the way, a lot of our 330 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 2: articles came from religious papers or religious sites that had 331 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: a lot of conversations, So again I'm not going after 332 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 2: religion in general, because they are having this conversation within 333 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: themselves and they see a problem as well. So I 334 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 2: think it's an amazing time to see that people are 335 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: being open and are willing to ask questions. But again, 336 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: so this is life after Doogma dot com and the 337 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 2: writer is Andrew Jesco. I really hope I said that, right, 338 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 2: I apologize, And he puts it frankly. He says many 339 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 2: lead Christianity simply because they are women. The Bible was 340 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: written by men and for men. God has a penis 341 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: patriarchy informs the entire biblical worldview. There's no escaping that 342 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: try as liberal Christianity may, there's only damage control. Women 343 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: often find much more freedom in schools and the workplace 344 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: than in their churches, learning they don't have to be 345 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 2: quote silent and submissive to men like in many churches. 346 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 2: They aren't the property of men. Feminine sexuality is not 347 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 2: to be suppressed because it's some kind of temptation for men, 348 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 2: nor is it a service for men on demand. And 349 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: I thought that was an interesting way of putting it. 350 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: I do like the line about God has a penis. 351 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 3: Sorry, y'all. 352 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: And as we talked about in that first episode in 353 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: our previous episode, history is not kind to how the 354 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 2: Bible is interpreted when it comes to women and the 355 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 2: marginalized community. And today's debate as the country continues to 356 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 2: be split with politicians again weaponizing religion for power. 357 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 3: There's a lot. 358 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: But as I said at the top, before we can 359 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 2: actually talk about how religious trauma affects women and the 360 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: marginalized community in general, we have to talk about the 361 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 2: misogyny and sexism in Christianity. 362 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:33,239 Speaker 3: So let's start it. 363 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, in her journal, sexism and misogyny and the 364 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: Christian tradition liberating alternatives. Rosemary Radford Ruther researches the depths 365 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: of these roles in Christianity. At the start of our article. 366 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: She writes, attitudes towards women are often the results of 367 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: a quote, patriarchal and a hierarchical reading of the system 368 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: of Christian symbols as a whole, rather than specific doctrines. 369 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: These readings of a quote system of domination derives from 370 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: patriarchal slave Ocri sees the social system in which Christianity 371 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: was born that is a quote, but does recognize that 372 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 1: its original intent quote began as a critique of this 373 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: system that proposed prophetic, liberating alternatives that were then partially replaced, 374 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: which we would argue that the original ideal is what 375 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: was most likely appeasing for those who are marginalized. Misogynistic 376 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: attitudes have roots in the Greek philosophical tradition, particularly Aristotle, 377 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: and these traditions believe that quote women lack autonomous reason 378 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: and were therefore inherently inferior and dependent on the male. 379 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 3: Right. 380 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 2: And again we're coming back to Paul again many opinions. 381 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 3: Again, I really like being. 382 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 2: Not the only one, love seeing it in writing too, 383 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 2: Ruth writes, quote, but Paul prefers that gender, hierarchy and 384 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 2: slavery remain intact until Christ returns, which he had expected 385 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: to happen very soon, which I feel like happens often 386 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: most promised things is going to happen real so and 387 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 2: it never really does. 388 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,479 Speaker 3: Whatever. I'm sure one day we'll maybe we'll be shocked. Whatever. 389 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: And Paul writes in a New Testament that quote, equality 390 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: in Christ is only spiritual and does not affect worldly 391 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: gender and class hierarchies. So we wanted to take some 392 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 2: Bible verses for you as examples, and this was from 393 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 2: the New Testament. He wrote, wives obey your husband, and 394 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: slaves obey your masters, and children obey your parents. Yeah. 395 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: It only continues with this theme throughout, including verses like 396 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 2: Ephesians chapter five, verse twenty two, quote, wives, submit yourself 397 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,239 Speaker 2: to your own husbands as you do the Lord. Then 398 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 2: we go to First Corinthians chapter eleven, verse three. But 399 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: I want you to understand that Christ is the head 400 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 2: of every man, and the husband is the head of 401 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: his wife, and God is the head of Christ. Also 402 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 2: First Corinthians chapter eleven, verse eight and nine. Man was 403 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: not made from woman, but woman made from man. Neither 404 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: was man created for this sa of woman, but for 405 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 2: the sake of man. For this reason, a woman should 406 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: have a symbol of authority on her head. So this 407 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: is a debated topic about head covering, so you'll see 408 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: it throughout all kinds of conversations. Yeah, that was something 409 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: that happened in my college ministry. There was a whole 410 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 2: debate about head coverings. Really uga even wow. 411 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: And Ruther goes on to say, the first Epistle of Timothy, 412 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: a disciple of Paul quote, seeks to give the final 413 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: basis for women's subordination in the Church, and to refute 414 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: any idea that this subordination had been overcome in Christ. 415 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: Women are said to have been both created second after 416 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: the Mail, and also to have been guilty of originating 417 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: humanities fall into sin. So here's some more Bible verses. 418 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: First Timothy, Chapter two, verses thirteen and fourteen. Quote for 419 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: Adam was formed first and then Eve, and Adam was 420 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became the transgressor. 421 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: And with verses and texts like these, the mess which 422 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: is very clear not only are women's secondary, but they 423 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: are the reason for evil on earth, their sedectresses and 424 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: deceivers and easily misled, and their duties or perhaps more 425 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: along the lines of punishment are quote no authority in 426 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: church expected to be silent submission to men, and then 427 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: pain of childbirth. 428 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: Right of course, and then of course all of the 429 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 2: pain in general. Women just deserve pain, right, okay, And 430 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: as we continue forward in history, the interpretation doesn't stray 431 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 2: far from those beliefs. Saint Augustine distinguishes between quote the 432 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 2: spiritual capacity of women's souls and her quote physical nature 433 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: as female, which is the rest right, not the image 434 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: of God, but rather images of the body as carnal 435 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 2: and prone to sin because we can conceive, right that 436 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 2: means we're sinful. And the theology continues with the idea 437 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: that men are fully formed humans, but women are quote 438 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 2: defective humans. Yes, as we're with the rights. Christ had 439 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 2: to be male to represent full humanity, and therefore only 440 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 2: males could represent Christ in the priesthood, and many would 441 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 2: consider God being male as well, or male representing the strong, 442 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 2: the righteous, the angered, the powerful, So therefore obviously he 443 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 2: is masculine. 444 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: M And as we keep moving up the timeline, the 445 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: Reformation era was not so great for women either. Luther 446 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: and Calvin quote worsened at the early Christian tradition by 447 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: denying that women can exercise the power of prophecy. They did, however, 448 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: elevate women's characters a bit by rejecting the idea of 449 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: women as quote defective by nature, but instead insisted that 450 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: quote women accept their subordination as obedience to the divinely 451 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: established social order. And of course, quote rationality and ruling 452 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: power are seen as male qualities to be exercised by 453 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: males and inappropriate for women. 454 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, just look at the status of politics today. 455 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 2: We don't have emotional politicians at all that are men. 456 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: Or you know, the whole dating scene is not like 457 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 2: rampant with emotional men who get very angry for no 458 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 2: reason at all, including like, oh, I don't know, I 459 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: just saw a wonderful tweet of a woman who got 460 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 2: a message, and it was she said, hey, I'm asleep, 461 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 2: I'll respond to you, and he sends a huge, long 462 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 2: letter essentially telling her message, essentially telling her that she's 463 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 2: missing out, and all he wanted to do was buy 464 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: her things. Like it was on and on, and then 465 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 2: she was like dude, I told you I was asleep 466 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 2: that I would get back to it. She wasn't even 467 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: rejecting him, right, But men aren't emotional and they are 468 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 2: so rational, but women. 469 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 3: Just inappropriate obviously. Okay. 470 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 2: So, however, this theological battle of men's roles versus women's 471 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: roles has been around for years, and I thought because 472 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: we found several different articles talking about feminism in the church, 473 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 2: women's roles, and I found one from nineteen eighty five 474 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 2: and it's titled women are the Devil's Gateway and it's 475 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 2: for the New Internationalists, which I think they did a 476 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,239 Speaker 2: whole debate for this, and we're going to take a 477 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: big chunk out of it because again it's too fascinating. Today, 478 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 2: Orthodox Jewish women are still excluded from the praying community 479 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: and seated behind a screen. Roman, Catholic and Protestant women 480 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: who want to serve the bread and wine are asked 481 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: instead to serve church suppers. Women in every congregation still 482 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: here such phrases as quote God, our father sons of God, 483 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: men of God, and the brotherhood of man. And in 484 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: this patriarch theology rights American feminist Rosemary Ruther, the male 485 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: is taken to be the normative representative of a human species, 486 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 2: the norm for imagining God and for anthropology, sin, redemption, 487 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 2: and ministry. The female, in contrast, is seen as subordinate 488 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 2: and auxiliary to the male. Women never appear in patriarchical 489 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 2: theology as representatives of humanity. As such, their normative position 490 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 2: is that of absence and silence. When patriarchal theology mentions women, 491 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 2: it does so to reinforce this definition of her place 492 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 2: in the system. Feminist scholars also began to identify the 493 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: relationship between the sexism women experience that worship and the 494 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 2: biblical worldview. The creation stories shared by Christians, Muslims, and 495 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: Jews is a cornerstone of the historical bias towards women. 496 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: According to the Hebrew folk tale, Eve tempted Adam with 497 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 2: a forbidden fruit and thus triggered humankind's expulsion from Paradise. 498 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: The identification of women with evil, temptation, and sin thus 499 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: became a primary ingredient in Christian tradition. While men was 500 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: associated with the spiritual, the reasonable, and the godly, women 501 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 2: was linked to flesh, matter, and the world. Good and 502 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: evil were given the clear sexual counterparts. According to this 503 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: very view, women actually cause evil to come into the world. 504 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 2: As a result, they must atone for their collective guilt 505 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: and redeem themselves. 506 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: And with that the article continues so In the past decade, 507 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: feminists have challenged assumptions that any form of oppression is 508 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: natural part of the created order, and such devastating critiques 509 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: of the Judeo Christian tradition have led many feminists to 510 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: leave established churches and synagogues. A goddess movement has emerged, 511 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: in which women are attempting to reshape ancient worship and 512 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: celebrate woman's creative power. Spiritual feminism has become an important 513 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: aspect of the women's movement worldwide. Still, many feminists choose 514 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: to remain within organized religions. Those who stay obviously believe 515 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: the women's movement can change the church. Christian feminists in 516 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: particular look at early church history in the life of 517 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: Jesus for inspiration. In the community Jesus gathered around him, 518 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: women were treated as equals, playing central roles in their 519 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: early church. Jesus told as followers call no man father, 520 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: no man master, and warned them not to quote Lord 521 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: It over others. So many Christian feminists find affirmation hope 522 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: in Jesus's life and teachings. Along with other liberation theologians, 523 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: they say the Bible puts God squarely on the side 524 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: of the poor and oppressed, and that true liberation can 525 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: only come when women can take their place at the 526 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: very center of faith as subjects rather than objects. 527 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 2: Right again, we're coming back to a lot of conversation 528 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: about trying to meet in the middle, trying to re 529 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 2: establish what the Bible truly meant. 530 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 3: And again, there are so. 531 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: Many terms within Christian culture that kind of goes from 532 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: one to another. I as a teacher of the Bible, 533 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 2: I'm putting that in quotes. We talk about the word 534 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: being and we called it the word being, the living 535 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: Word of God. So in that aspect, the conversation and 536 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 2: the ideal was that it grew and it it didn't 537 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 2: necessarily change, but it went with the times and the 538 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 2: idea that we don't know, we don't know the true 539 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 2: intent of what God or Jesus or the spiritual aspects 540 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 2: of what it should have been, and that it's supposed 541 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: to be a guide. Again, we're coming back to the conversation. 542 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 2: I'm getting real deep about literal versus figurative. There's so 543 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 2: many things, and we know that that happens with a 544 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 2: lot all the religions. Buddhism has that extremist versus more 545 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: liberal thinking, Christianity, Judaism, all of that has its own 546 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: spectrum of what they believe is versus figurative, what we 547 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 2: should be looking at, what we should be taking as 548 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 2: an example of or just a story or a prophecy. Again, 549 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: there's so much to that, and I think women for 550 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: so long when you look at again, and we talked 551 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 2: about previously that if we were looking at the word 552 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: of Jesus alone, he never comes in with those women 553 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 2: or this is and this that has never been his goal, 554 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: and that is not a thing that was ever preached. 555 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: It is very ironic that we have people who sit 556 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 2: as leaders of churches saying that their word is the 557 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: authority versus actual biblical word or truth or what they 558 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 2: want to say is truth, which is, you know, the 559 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: idea of Jesus. 560 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 3: And again, if we take what Christianity. 561 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 2: Was supposed to be today, which is the covering of 562 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 2: the things that you couldn't do, as in like you 563 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: can't save yourself, that whole idea, like you're not good, 564 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: you're not going to be good enough, which both alleviates 565 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 2: a little bit of responsibility, but at the same time 566 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: like seems impossible that, like you could have one extreme 567 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 2: to another. And you know, with that article from nineteen 568 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: eighty five, and I guess from that paper with Ruther, 569 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 2: she's been around for a minute and have been talking 570 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 2: about this wh minute as well. 571 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 3: Not much has changed. 572 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 2: The thing that has changed is I think a lot 573 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 2: of women have given up and instead of trying to 574 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: marry those deals together, they are leaving. As we talked 575 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: about it previously, especially those in the millennial gen Zer groups, 576 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 2: have truly left. I think one statistics was showing like 577 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 2: forty percent of women had enough of the millennial group 578 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 2: had had enough and started to slowly walk away. When 579 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: we look at the depth of stigmas that happens within religions, 580 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 2: and I'm having it a hard time because there's so much. 581 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 2: I have a lot of people and good friends who 582 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 2: are still very religious and who still are very heavily 583 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 2: into church, and I think they are great people, and 584 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 2: if they are doing something that makes them feel hopeful 585 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 2: and push forward, I love that. I love that for them. 586 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: But what we're seeing today is that's not it we're 587 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 2: taking that whole ideal into becoming a fascist state, and 588 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: that's the scary part of what we're seeing. I keep 589 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: saying that because I really I know how important religion 590 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 2: can be. Again, I have talked about the fact that 591 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 2: it really did help me in my darkest time, but 592 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 2: I also know how detrimental it can be when this 593 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 2: type of abuse and trauma occurs. And we want to 594 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 2: make sure that we are talking about that in a 595 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 2: full stretch and how we need to be aware for 596 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 2: those around us and as again as the world is 597 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 2: slowly feeling like stepping backwards and speaking of that. Yeah, 598 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 2: so kind of give you the preview of next episode. Again, 599 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the purity movement within Christianity. 600 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the perfect ideal of mothers. 601 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about domestic violence. Upcoming, we'll be 602 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 2: talking about Christian nationalism as well as cults. 603 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: There's a lot, Yeah, there is a lot. There is 604 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: a lot, and it just touches on so much that 605 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: we talk about all the time here. So it makes 606 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: sense to me that it was a multi part series 607 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: and it will be ongoing, So look out for those 608 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: episodes upcoming. Listeners. In the meantime, if you have any 609 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 1: thoughts on this or any ideas for things we should cover, 610 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: you can email us. Our email is stuffandia mom Stuff 611 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter 612 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram or TikTok at 613 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: stuff When Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We 614 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,919 Speaker 1: also have a book coming out. You can pre order 615 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: it at stuff You Should Read Books dot com. Thanks, 616 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: as always too, our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, 617 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey was very helpful for this one. 618 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 3: Yes did so much. Thank y'all so much, Yes. 619 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told 620 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: You is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts or my 621 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: heart Radio, you can check out the i heart Radio app, 622 00:36:47,760 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or where you listen to your favorite shows.