1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 3: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,159 Speaker 3: Today's episode is a little different and honestly one of 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 3: the most fun that we've done. Instead of focusing on 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 3: just one case, we are diving into the stories that 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 3: stick with us, the ones we can't stop thinking about, 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 3: can't stop recommending, and maybe can't stop watching even though 9 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 3: we probably should. We are talking true crime dramatizations and documentaries, 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 3: how they hit differently, what they get right, what they 11 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 3: leave out, and why some stories stay with you long 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 3: after they're over. And I'm so excited to do this 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 3: with someone who knows this space just as well as 14 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 3: I do. Killer Thriller docu host Jen Fessler. Jen, Welcome, 15 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 3: Donovan se Killer Thriller. Jen. 16 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so very much. Hi. 17 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm so happy to see you as. 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 2: I was so happy to see you, just in case 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: listeners care. Like we met at Jeff Lewis, it was 20 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 2: one of the best days. 21 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, I will never forget that. 22 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 3: With the shoot, we're going to get off topics so quickly, 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 3: but we're going to get back right back on it. 24 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: But I adored you from the me to get I 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 3: was like, why don't I know this person already? 26 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 2: I felt this so but it's also I grew up 27 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: with you. You didn't know me by you. Oh my favorite. Okay, anyway, 28 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: all right, we're going to try to stay on topic. 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 3: So I want to start with my dramatization. Pick one 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 3: of mine is the Amanda Knox The Twisted Tail of Amandon. 31 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: Knox yep, and here is g why one. 32 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 3: I think she herself is maybe one of the most 33 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 3: extraordinary people that I've ever spoken to at someone at length. 34 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 3: I think she is really just an incredible human being. 35 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 3: But the series itself really achieves all the things that 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 3: I think are important. It's beautifully shot and beautifully created. 37 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: It's like has a. 38 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: Very strong point of view from a storytelling perspective, but 39 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 3: it's also incredibly deep and nuanced into the actual crime 40 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 3: and the ins and outs of what this woman went through. 41 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 3: I just think it's amazing. I'm blown away by it. 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was too. 43 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 2: I remember watching her and the boyfriend at the time, 44 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: watching sort of like their connection, and then that being 45 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: so misconstrued. 46 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 4: Yes right, yes, being so terrorized. 47 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: Also when it was actually going down because we you know, 48 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: we were I don't know what age, but adult enough, 49 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: like when it was happening, Yes, to picture this poor 50 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 2: young girl just real It. 51 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 3: Felt like in watching it at the time, like none 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: of it made sense to me because it felt like, well, wait, 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 3: they're saying she did what? But then you're just seeing 54 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 3: a picture of this innocent looking girl. 55 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 2: Correct, I think that, Yes, I remember just thinking that girl, 56 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: which I mean, now, after we've been doing this for 57 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: a while, I'm starting to think you never know or 58 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: never know because they could come in all different shapes 59 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: and sizes. 60 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 4: That's what my joys of doing killer thriller. 61 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 2: But yeah, I just and and just feeling when I 62 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: watched the when I watched the docu drama looking just 63 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: thinking about her mom. 64 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 4: That was just that. 65 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 2: I mean I have a twenty three year old daughter 66 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,839 Speaker 2: now and a twenty almost twenty six year old son, 67 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 2: and that it was just so horrifying. 68 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: Oh as a parent, it's like the one imaginable. 69 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: All right, Now, I have a fun one. When I 70 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: say a fun one, listeners, please forgive me. This really 71 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 2: shouldn't be fun, but it can't be helped. So did 72 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: you see the act with Patricia Arquette about oh oh, 73 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: I bet you did. Maybe with Patricia Arcaut about munch House, 74 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: munch Housends, Gypsy Rose Blanchard and you didn't see this? 75 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: No? How have I not seen this? When did this 76 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: come out? 77 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: With Patricia Arcat can't I don't remember the year, but 78 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: not that long ago ago, but not that many and 79 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: her little girl she has munch Hower, munch Houses, yes, thousands, 80 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: munch Housings, right, And so it's about they, you know, 81 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: they move into this neighborhood and the girl is in 82 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: a wheelchair and she really you know. 83 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: Yes you remember this, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, 84 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: this came out in twenty nineteen, yes, okay. 85 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: So it is so sick and you see Patricia Arquette 86 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: like taking her to these these different like trade shows 87 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 2: and trying to get her like she was, yes, and 88 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 2: she was like sick, she. 89 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 4: Was a crazy. 90 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: She's like poisoning the child and making these and then 91 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 2: one point she like ties are to the bed and 92 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: this and the gypsy Rose girl talks in that weird voice, 93 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: I mean the weird voice. Yes, I mean, yes, we 94 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 2: know her now she's out of prison and you hear 95 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: her and she had that weird little girl voice. 96 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 4: It was so freaking creepy. 97 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 3: This is so creepy, so creepy, and then she kills 98 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 3: the mother. I mean, it's like, how do you I 99 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 3: that one in particular Munchausen's yeah is I don't know. 100 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 3: I feel like I say this about everything, like it 101 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 3: is particularly sick. But I think because perhaps it's the 102 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 3: one that I could not identify with in terms of 103 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 3: having that. But as a parent, it's so specific that 104 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 3: it's a maternal thing, that it's a mother to daughter 105 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 3: most of. 106 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: The time, A hundred a hundred forsake me right out 107 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: the front door, like you when. 108 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: At first, but that word, because that word wasn't always around, 109 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: It wasn't just like Yolanda hadid. That was the beginning 110 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 2: when I started learning about what it was. Yes, And 111 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: I remember taking my son in particular because he was 112 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: my firstborn, to the doctor all the time because I 113 00:05:58,279 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 2: was so scared and he had a feb and I 114 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: was they're gonna think I have the muncha munch of these, 115 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 2: but they're gonna have me arrested. 116 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: For then they're gonna think I have the munchies. 117 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, all right, you go. 118 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 3: Okay, my next dramatization Murdoch Death in the Family with 119 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: Patricia Arquette. 120 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 4: Yes, Patricia, I love it. 121 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: So this is the thing that series is again does 122 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 3: the same thing in a different way to me, that like, 123 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 3: this is what I'm looking for when in watching these things, 124 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 3: because it isn't just like a sick fascination with the 125 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 3: crime per se. To me, it's really about the humanization 126 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 3: of these people and how do we get from A 127 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 3: to Z and all of the fallout for the family 128 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: members and all these things. And this series, the performances 129 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 3: are out of this world. Everyone Jason Clark, Patricia Arquette, 130 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 3: Jay Smith, Cameron and all of the children. It's like 131 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 3: they're so so good and it's so nuanced, and it 132 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 3: really just it's like the unfolding of a of a 133 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 3: madman and how you can be so And it's about 134 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: wealth and privilege and drugs and it has everything. 135 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: Yep, you know, we watched this, so I have it 136 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: on my list too, but we because we watched it. 137 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: We went to veil this past winter break Christmas break, 138 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: and although my kids are twenty three, I guess it 139 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: doesn't exist anymore. This past winter we all went to 140 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: veil as a family and it didn't snow. It was 141 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: the first time record highs. Of course, it's my family, 142 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: and so we had we're in this like you know lodge, 143 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: like you know wood lodge, and we so for fun, 144 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: we sat around and watched this and there were I 145 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: don't know how many episodes, but the whole family watched it. 146 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: So this will always have a very special place in 147 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: my heart. 148 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: It was a family viewing. 149 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 4: It was it was a family affair. 150 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: I just and thinking about Patricia Arquette in the act 151 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: versus this versus what was it called death in the family? Right, 152 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: so different, so just like perfect southern wife, and she 153 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: was so devoted and and remember when they he took 154 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: them all away on vacation and this was towards you 155 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: and it. 156 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 3: Was so and that like gluttonous sort of like the 157 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: drinking and the hurricane thing, and just like in the pool, 158 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 3: his just he's like a monstrosity who just does not 159 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 3: has no morals and no kind of and you know 160 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 3: what I thought was interesting also about Patrici Arquette. 161 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: When I interviewed Manny Mattney and Liz Ferrell. 162 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 3: They said that that show the series was greenlit on 163 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 3: Patricia's name, not even on Jason Clark, and that just 164 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: like warmed my heart because you know, a lot of 165 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 3: these things get made because of men, right of course, 166 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 3: and it was Patricia Arquette. 167 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: So I love that as they say that he they 168 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 2: say that he, and I didn't know his name is 169 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: Jason Clark, so that he really he was the he 170 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: was Murdoch like to a TV embodied And I remember 171 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: watching the trial a little bit, but I didn't, but 172 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 2: still it was spooky in the hair of the boys 173 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: and the whole thing. 174 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, you pick a drama. 175 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: I loved the girl from Plainville. Did you see that one? 176 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: No? 177 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: About Oh my god? So this girl, uh has this boyfriend. 178 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 2: She's kind of like a weird girl. I don't remember. 179 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: She actually moved to a new community, but she didn't 180 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: have a lot of friends. She was always kind of 181 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: a try hard. I hate that expression, but I think 182 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: that's how the other girls felt about her. 183 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 3: My daughters now they call it a pick me. That's 184 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 3: what my daughter calls it. I'm well, let's just not 185 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 3: use any of this, any of these chases. 186 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 2: But yeah, horrible, but yes, So there's this girl Michelle Carter. 187 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 4: She's in high school. I guess she moved to I 188 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 4: think she went to a new town. 189 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: Very hard time, adorable girl, hard time making friends for 190 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: whatever reason, never got the attention she wanted. And meets 191 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: a boy, and a very sweet boy named Conrad, and 192 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 2: he is troubled, you know. They get into this relationship, 193 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: a lot of texting, going back and forth, and basically 194 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: he's suicidal and it turns out that she has been 195 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 2: encouraging him to kill himself. And it's completely unbelievably upsetting, 196 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: like just do what Conrad. Do what Conrad, I don't 197 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: remember exactly, turn on the car, drink the poison. 198 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 4: It's crazy. 199 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: And she ends up she ends up going to trial, 200 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: and I believe she was convicted, but this one just 201 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: absolutely creeped me out. And then after he died, she 202 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: like wanted all this attention and so she did, like 203 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 2: she threw like softball games in his honor and got 204 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: to know his mother, and the mother was like, wait, 205 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: who are you? 206 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 4: And her parents were like Conrad, who? 207 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 2: And she was trying to evoke sympathy from all of 208 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 2: her friends and putting these posts up and I love 209 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 2: you and I miss you and I don't know, it 210 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: was beyond beyond creepy. I remember it, yeah, And then 211 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,719 Speaker 2: she when it's time for her to go into court. 212 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 2: I think she was a blonde when it happened, and 213 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: then I think she like dyed her hair when she 214 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 2: went into court with these dark eyebrows. 215 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 4: Do you remember this? 216 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: Yes? I do. 217 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: But it's also reminding me of how the Death of 218 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 3: a Cheerleader movie, which is about the girl who murdered 219 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 3: her classmate on the doorstep over she you know, they 220 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 3: didn't know that it was her for many, many months, 221 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: and she took those months to sort of develop her 222 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 3: popularity at the school, like, to get to achieve the 223 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 3: things that she wanted to and to sort of normalize 224 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 3: herself in the community. 225 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: It's like diabolical. 226 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 2: Diataminal and their kids, and that's what's so yes, hey, 227 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 2: I mean they. I mean I've now just watched a 228 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: lot of documentaries and docu dramas with that starts they 229 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: start with kids. But anyway, okay, okay, my third drama. 230 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 2: This was a toss up for me between the I 231 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: Am Elizabeth Smart movie because I just I think she's 232 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: another one that is extraordinary and it's so arresting to 233 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: see her talk to the camera about her experience and 234 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 2: like to stop you when you're having these feelings like 235 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 2: oh God, I don't want to see what's next, and 236 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,599 Speaker 2: then she comes on and says, you don't want to 237 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: see what's next, do you? 238 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: And you're like blown away. 239 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 3: But as a full the one that we just I 240 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 3: can't stop talking about or watching the people versus OJ 241 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 3: that series again does all the things for me. It 242 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 3: checks all the boxes. It's compelling, it's incredibly well made. 243 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 3: It shows the nuances of the case itself and all 244 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 3: of the people in it. 245 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: Except my My only problem with this one. 246 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: Is that I really wish they had given Nicole more 247 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 3: of a presence. And she obviously is not alive during 248 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: you know, the course of what this covers, but I 249 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 3: still feel like they could have given her family more coverage, 250 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 3: more talk about her. 251 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:11,599 Speaker 1: That's my only complaint with that. 252 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 4: So certain they certainly deserved it. 253 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: But it's sometimes when I watch these docudramas and documentaries, 254 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 2: but it's weird because right that happened, So let see 255 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 2: if I was picturing that that happened around nineteen fourteen, 256 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: ninety four. Okay, But like I remember watching it in 257 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: real time. I remember when he was acquitted. I was 258 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: a talent agent at the time, working like in the 259 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: big TV room with everyone, and it was very bizarre. 260 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: It was so and so watching it like this, What. 261 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: Was the response? 262 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 3: Because I remember too, I was shooting something at the 263 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 3: old ABC studios that was primarily news, but we were 264 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: shooting a TV movie there and everybody stopped, the whole 265 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 3: crew and it was racially divided, and people about. 266 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: You say that that's how it was, honestly, isn't that 267 00:13:59,240 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: so interesting? 268 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 3: Yep? 269 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: Yep? 270 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: All right, So, speaking of uh, sort of real stories, 271 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 2: let's talk about some documentaries. 272 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 4: I feel like I love both. 273 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: Documentaries are just I don't even actually don't even know 274 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: which are freaky are But anyway, there's a lot of 275 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: a lot of freaky ones. So, uh, have you seen 276 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: American Murder with about Scott Peterson? 277 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: Yep? 278 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 3: And Lacy and assured, Damn, I cannot. 279 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 4: I don't even know what to say. 280 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: I'm interviewing Mark. I'll say this, I'm interviewing Mark erra 281 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: Goes tomorrow. 282 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 3: You are, yes, I am, honey, I'm to be listening 283 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 3: to that and I cannot wait. 284 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: But that. 285 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: What really really broke my heart about that one was 286 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 3: her friends. 287 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: Oh my god, became such a beautiful job, bringing her 288 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: friends so beautiful. 289 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 4: I loved, loved, loved watching that. 290 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: Also like getting to see Amber in it and the 291 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: way like her whole and realizing how brave she actually. 292 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 3: Yes, this is another thing where the press, you know, 293 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 3: presents one image and story of a person, and if 294 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 3: you don't play enough attention, you think like, oh, she's some. 295 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: You know, hooker lady. 296 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: And affair with her so automatically you were like she's 297 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: a villain. And meanwhile, you know she was played and 298 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: she rose up. 299 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: And she's like heartbroken. 300 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 3: She loved this man, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's heartbreaking. 301 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, I I mean there are so very many. 302 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 3: I recently watched the new Elizabeth Smart. It's called Kidnapped 303 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 3: Elizabeth Smart, and I think one of the reasons that 304 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 3: I love this one so much is because it's incredibly 305 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 3: raw and authentic, and you see that this person has 306 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 3: survived and thrive right, and she has a voice, and 307 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 3: she is strong and she is living a beautiful life, 308 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 3: and that is a hopeful ending to a truly unimaginable 309 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 3: Her story is despicable beyond description, but she went unbearable. 310 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 4: Agreed. Agreed. 311 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, so there's one. So now that I've 312 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 2: been doing this pod, I've fallen in love with so 313 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: many different people and directors and producers and actual people 314 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: that have been through. But sky Borgmann is somebody that 315 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: I got. I had the absolute pleasure of interviewing. And 316 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: so she I watched another one that she did, not 317 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: the one that I was interviewing about Sins of our Mother, 318 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: about Lori Valay. Yes, so, okay, so you remember because 319 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: that was more reason. I feel like that just happened 320 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 2: a few years ago, right, Yeah, I think so, Yes, Yes, 321 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: was she killed her kids, She killed two of her kids, 322 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: and she was like very she was sort of indoctrinated. 323 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 2: I want to say they were lds, but it was 324 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: like a certain level of it. It was so now, Yes, 325 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 2: she was this beautiful blonde she went through. She had 326 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: this family this they had her mother on it, who 327 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: seemed very brave and actually very lovely, and they had 328 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: he was from Ireland. The husband's from Ireland, and they 329 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: had his sister and his father. Anyway, it was there 330 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 2: was so much love from like the aunts and the 331 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: uncles and the older brother who was not killed, but 332 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: Lori Valo was became a crazy person and she ended up, 333 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: you know, killing one of them. Was adopted the son 334 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: and kind of an older daughter who was around sixteen. 335 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: And the sorrow that she just left behind, right, but 336 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 2: not just the sorrow, like the anger and how could 337 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 2: she do it, but also watching her mom who still 338 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 2: tries to love her, you know, through it, which is 339 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 2: which is it's just brutal, but you see her when 340 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 2: it starts out. Yeah, she was okay, Yeah, she was 341 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 2: raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, 342 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 2: and then she got right and then she became an 343 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: extremist with this guy that was crazy extremist and. 344 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 4: He had a wife who he killed. 345 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: It was all fed up and they believed that like 346 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: people could. 347 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: Be be zombies. 348 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: She thought that her daughter was a zombie. It was 349 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 2: so whack a doodle do. And yeah, she but she 350 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: at the beginning you like her when you're hearing the 351 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: story because well, you don't like her because you know 352 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 2: what happens, but you are watching she like took. She 353 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: had a bunch of different husbands and one was sexually 354 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: abusive to her son, and she picked up her son 355 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 2: and I believe her daughter at the time, moved them 356 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: right out of that house, left right. 357 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 4: Married this guy. 358 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 2: Who was actually I thought, very good looking and charming 359 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 2: if I'm being honest. 360 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: And sometimes they are, sometimes they are. 361 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: No, he was, he was actually like he wasn't a 362 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 2: bad guy. He was the one he got They killed him, 363 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 2: do they kill him? 364 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 4: He died? 365 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? 366 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 4: It was a mess. Yeah, all right, all right, you go, 367 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 4: all right. 368 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 3: John Wayne Gacy, Devil in Disguise, I don't know that one, okay, 369 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 3: So it is about John Wayne Gacy, who was, you know, 370 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: dubbed the clown Killer, which really was just he was 371 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 3: a that didn't really have anything to do with him 372 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 3: being a serial killer, but he from time to time 373 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 3: would dress up as a clown and do kids parties 374 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 3: and parades. 375 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 4: You should always know somebody that's dressing up in clowns. 376 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you got clowns, you know, in paintings around 377 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 3: your house, bananas? 378 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: So he what is so? 379 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 3: So I'm also where there is there's a dramatization a 380 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 3: series on Peacock that's called Devil in Disguise John Wayne Gacy. 381 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 3: This is John Wayne Gate which that the the Nare narrative, 382 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 3: which spoiler, I'm going to interview someone from that series 383 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 3: as well. That focuses more on the victims. But the 384 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 3: doc it is really about him. And you see this 385 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: man who is in some way charismatic to some people, 386 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 3: but he is he He had a lot of political 387 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 3: positions around in Chicago and in Illinois, and he was 388 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 3: like an upstanding member of the community. 389 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: He was married twice. 390 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 3: The kicker, the catch, Oh, he was arrested for sodomizing 391 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 3: a young boy years before he killed anyone. But because 392 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 3: back then they made it seem like, oh, that's just 393 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 3: homosexual for play, So he didn't like that that's what 394 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 3: homosexuals do. And he flips everything. You see this man 395 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 3: like talk about a narciss I know so many of 396 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 3: these cases and these these villains are truly narcissists. Yes, 397 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 3: when he is confessing, he's saying, but this isn't my fault, 398 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 3: this is self defense, right, and he gives these explanations fault, 399 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 3: it's never his fault. And you see the the the 400 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 3: interrogators like, so explain to me how this is not 401 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 3: He's like, well, I had to stop him from It's 402 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 3: like right, or he was there. 403 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: Yep, he stead he was. 404 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 3: And this man just abused these boys so horrifically and 405 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 3: then killed them and buried them in the crawl space 406 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 3: underneath his home. 407 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 4: Oh god, you see. 408 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 2: This is the thing sometimes is, especially with the documentaries 409 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: as opposed to docu dramas. 410 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 4: Two things. 411 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 2: Number one, there is there is something very vindicating when 412 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 2: you see the end and you see them in court. 413 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 4: Yes, and the real person. 414 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, I know that I should be more involved 415 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: than this, but get the in jail and all. There 416 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 2: is something more sort of frightening and terrorizing seeing the 417 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: actual fuel. But anyway, So but speaking of narcissists, so 418 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 2: a deadly American marriage. So that is a crazy documentary. 419 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: So it's about John and Molly Corbett. John Corbett ultimately 420 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: although people the jury, well the jury's on out. Molly 421 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: went to jail. But but then she got out of 422 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: jail her and her father killed John Corbett. Molly was 423 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: an American girl who wanted to be an o par 424 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 2: in Ireland. John's wife had died, this wonderful woman, Mags, 425 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 2: and so she moves to Ireland and to take care 426 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 2: of these two children. It turns out she had had 427 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 2: a miscarriage. She was, you know, dying for kids. She 428 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 2: takes these kids on. They moved back to America and 429 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,479 Speaker 2: Molly and her father one night kill John and yeah, 430 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: and they they claimed self defense. But the marriage was 431 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: starting to come apart and she wanted to be able 432 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: to adopt the kids and he was not allowing her 433 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: to adopt. She thought he was going to take the 434 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: kids and move back to Ireland. 435 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 1: But you see these kids. 436 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: So right, So the kids are a big part of 437 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,239 Speaker 2: the documentary and they are amazing. Oh my god, it 438 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 2: is these kids are You just can't believe that they 439 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: survived what they survived, so losing their mother and then 440 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 2: losing their father, but they had this wonderful family in Ireland, 441 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 2: specifically their aunt. 442 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, what do they go back to the family. 443 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: They ended up back in Ireland with their family and 444 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: she so Molly and her father go to jail, but 445 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 2: they get out of jail. So they are And I 446 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 2: think that some people do believe that it was self defense. 447 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 4: I do not believe that. 448 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: And the kids, it turns out, were they were programmed 449 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: by her to as soon as it happened say things 450 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: to They were interviewed to the police, like, my father 451 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 2: always hit my mother and my father, And they come 452 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 2: back these years later and they say she made us 453 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 2: say that those were lies. We never saw him ever 454 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: ever else. 455 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you're kidding. 456 00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 2: No. 457 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 4: So the part of that was there was so gross. 458 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: They like they bashed his head in the father and 459 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 2: Molly and there was like big pieces of skull on 460 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 2: the floor. Again a documentary, so you see, it's just awful, awful, horrible. 461 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 2: But she's out of jail now. The kids, I believe 462 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 2: are in Ireland. It's heartbreaking. 463 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: Why is she out of jail? How is that possible? 464 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 2: Because I don't remember exactly, but there was a technicality somewhere. 465 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly what it was, but she I 466 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: don't know if her and her father got released. And 467 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 2: these kids were are were are completely devastated. And you 468 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 2: see the boy in it specifically, they both they both 469 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: broke my heart. He's crying about his father and they 470 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 2: loved their father and they had already lost their mother. 471 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: And she the whole time is like referring to herself 472 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: as she'd always say, my kids and as a mom, 473 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 2: and they weren't her kids right right, she was the 474 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 2: lot like before she went to Ilan when she got 475 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: married to they ended up getting married and she lied 476 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: to everyone about how they met. 477 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 4: She's I don't know, she was a sick. 478 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 3: But anyways, I mean the other thing, all of these 479 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 3: things have really revealed so many of the flaws, and 480 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 3: not only our legal system but also in the investigative 481 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 3: portions of things. And not to throw shade on anybody, 482 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: but it really does reveal how imperfect those institutions are 483 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 3: and it's pretty upsetting. So Jen, We're going to do 484 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 3: this again, like hopefully super often because it's great. And 485 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 3: then let's do it in person because I yes, and 486 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: I can hug you. And so Jen, as we all know, 487 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 3: hosts the Killer Thriller doc You podcast right here on 488 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 3: iHeart and. 489 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: Love it. Can't wait to do this again. It's always 490 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: so weird to say this was fun, right, I know, 491 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: I know. 492 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 4: I know, killing and murder woohoo. 493 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: Yes, right, yeah, it's you know. How are you sleeping? 494 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 3: One last quick question? Are you sleeping okay at night? 495 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 2: No? 496 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 4: I'm not thank you for asking. 497 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 2: I mean, I liked, I like watching these, but now 498 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 2: that I'm doing it on a regular yeah, yeah, I 499 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: don't think my husband feels. 500 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: Safe, welcome to the world. That's what. 501 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 4: I like it. There's something wrong with me, I know. 502 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 4: Bye my life. 503 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: I love you, Thank you, Okay, I love you, honey. 504 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 4: Bye bye.