Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Well, hello, Whipsmarties.
Speaker 1: We have someone on the podcast today that I have
Speaker 1: such a talent crush on. I'm geeked that he's here.
Speaker 1: From playing incredibly hilarious characters like Buster Bluth on Arrested
Speaker 1: Development to Gary Walsh on Veep, we are joined today
Speaker 1: by Emmy winner Tony Hale, who is here to talk
Speaker 1: about a pretty profoundly different and deeply personal role that
Speaker 1: he's playing in the fantasy drama feature film Sketch. What
Speaker 1: really struck me about it is the movie exists in
Speaker 1: this fantastical world, Tony's daughter's drawings come to life and
Speaker 1: kind of wek havoc on a town, but they wind
Speaker 1: up bringing the family closer together. And Tony isn't just
Speaker 1: the star of Sketch, the great dad on screen. He
Speaker 1: was a driving force behind the scenes, co producing this
Speaker 1: movie and fighting for eight years to get it made.
Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about that journey, how you
Speaker 1: really stay loyal to your creativity and your hunches about
Speaker 1: what you want to do, His journey as a performer,
Speaker 1: as an anxious person, as a father. Tony is so
Speaker 1: self reflective and authentic and funny and just genuine. Oh
Speaker 1: what a gem. Let's dive in with Tony him. Hello
Speaker 1: for you, I'm great and thank you so much for
Speaker 1: your flexibility and congratulation ends. Sketch is so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Did you get a chance to see it?
Speaker 1: Yes? They sent me the screener and I I just
Speaker 1: love it. At one point I paused the movie and
Speaker 1: I ran out. My partner was doing some work, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I know you're working. I need you
Speaker 1: to look at this. I just need you to look
Speaker 1: at this. This is so amazing and it was really
Speaker 1: I can't I felt like I couldn't wait to share
Speaker 1: it with people. So I can't imagine how you feel
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that means a lot, man, that means a lot.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's taken us eight years to get it
Speaker 2: made and we uh just I mean, you know, I
Speaker 2: mean the business is so easy getting a film to
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, but it's like finding financing. And people
Speaker 2: either thought it was going to when we pitched it.
Speaker 2: They either thought it was going to be like The
Speaker 2: Bob a Duke but then it had it was kind
Speaker 2: of funny, or they thought it was like bomb Snowbits
Speaker 2: got some emotional depth, so they couldn't really grab the
Speaker 2: vision of it, which I get. And then just having
Speaker 2: it released, it's a very like, uh, take care of
Speaker 2: my kid kind of a feeling, you know. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: really proud of it. So I appreciate you watching it.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for you. It really made me think.
Speaker 1: You know, normally when people come on the show, the
Speaker 1: very first question I ask them is the one I'll
Speaker 1: ask you. If you could, like fold space time for
Speaker 1: an afternoon and today, you could walk onto a playground
Speaker 1: and hang out with your eight year old self, do
Speaker 1: you think you'd see the man you are in that kid?
Speaker 1: Do you think that kid's interests if you got to
Speaker 1: watch him play or talk to him about what he
Speaker 1: was into, would track for your career? And it's a
Speaker 1: crazy question to post to someone who literally made this
Speaker 1: beautiful movie about the inner world of a child.
Speaker 2: Yeah. First, so I love that question. I love unique questions,
Speaker 2: So I really appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Oh thanks. Who.
Speaker 2: I gotta be honest, I don't think it hasn't been
Speaker 2: until probably the last five years to therapy that I've
Speaker 2: like kind of liked that kid, you know, I mean
Speaker 2: that's super kind of deep and cheesy. But I was
Speaker 2: just kind of like that kid was kind of obnoxious
Speaker 2: and just you know, just how much attention he could
Speaker 2: get and I wasn't crazy about him. And then just
Speaker 2: kind of, much like I've done with a lot of
Speaker 2: my emotions, kind of invited them to the table rather
Speaker 2: than trying to kind of, you know, compartmentalize them. That's
Speaker 2: been helpful of like, yeah, it's a kid who Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was kind of as we all do. You know,
Speaker 2: middle school is like a piece of hell and so dismanaging.
Speaker 2: You know, he was doing what he could to get
Speaker 2: through it, and I think it was more of just
Speaker 2: like I would. I can definitely see the pattern that
Speaker 2: has developed. I can definitely see how the whole map
Speaker 2: has been put together and how it definitely started there.
Speaker 2: I mean, I was a very anxious kid. It's kind
Speaker 2: of beautiful how that anxiety has used in today's work
Speaker 2: that i've you know, or that I've been able to
Speaker 2: put out, which is great. So I've seen the whole
Speaker 2: kind of patch making of the quilt. But back then
Speaker 2: you're just like in survival mode, you know, So it
Speaker 2: just kind of me alongside him being like Hey, it's
Speaker 2: gonna be okay, you know, just you're doing your best.
Speaker 2: I think one thing one thing I do tell I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've talked a lot to like you're younger actors,
Speaker 2: and they always ask your advice. But I would say, like,
Speaker 2: just so you know, the value you have today is
Speaker 2: going to be the exact same value you have after
Speaker 2: whatever success you think is like success that your value
Speaker 2: doesn't change. Yeah, I think I lived my life and
Speaker 2: this business is in a way of like, you will
Speaker 2: have value when this happens. You have value when this happens. Yeah,
Speaker 2: even the way, even though in my mind I know
Speaker 2: that's not true, the subconscious can believe that, you know,
Speaker 2: and totally confirmation of like, yeah, my value is the
Speaker 2: exact same is when I was back in middle school.
Speaker 2: It hasn't changed absolutely well.
Speaker 1: And I think you see that on such a large scale, right,
Speaker 1: Like you know, you look around the world and this
Speaker 1: sort of runaway, runaway capitalism, if you will, Like you
Speaker 1: see all these people who have everything they could ever
Speaker 1: want of value and value that they could never spend
Speaker 1: or use, who still aren't satisfied. And so what you're
Speaker 1: saying is really it's really hitting me because and maybe
Speaker 1: it's the stage we're all in in life, right, Like
Speaker 1: when people have gone through career shifts or divorces or
Speaker 1: moved across the country or whatever the big change is,
Speaker 1: and you realize like, oh, yeah, anywhere I go, I'm
Speaker 1: still there. My problems are still there. Hopefully my joy
Speaker 1: is still there, but like, oh, I really do. I
Speaker 1: have to get to know me. I have to deal
Speaker 1: with me. And I don't think it's an accident that
Speaker 1: so many people are dealing with their own unique version
Speaker 1: of this same situation. There's a universality to it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's also I mean, I love you said
Speaker 2: that because there's a there is a tremendous weight that
Speaker 2: we put on these kind of whatever that big thing is.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've talked about this so much. Do you
Speaker 2: ever talk about something so much? And you're like, people
Speaker 2: are so tired of me? You think about it?
Speaker 1: But yes, but then I have to remind myself that
Speaker 1: much like today, whatever you're about to say, I haven't
Speaker 1: heard you say.
Speaker 2: Okay, well that makes me feel better.
Speaker 1: And there might be something I've said a thousand times
Speaker 1: that's new information to you. There's probably fans of both
Speaker 1: of ours that are like, shut the up, you keep
Speaker 1: repeating this, but oh well, you know, we're just two
Speaker 1: humans hanging out on zoom.
Speaker 2: It's probably pretty narcissistic of me to think that everybody
Speaker 2: listens to anyone.
Speaker 1: Every single person knows every single thing I've ever said and.
Speaker 2: They're counting them. But I when I booked Arrested Development,
Speaker 2: that was my That was I all when I was
Speaker 2: in New York, you know, just trying to make it quote,
Speaker 2: make it. Being on a sitcom was like it for me.
Speaker 2: It was like if I can I remember back then,
Speaker 2: we had pilot season, if you remember, and it was
Speaker 2: it was like the season where everything gets made, and
Speaker 2: that pilot season would always run by me and I'd
Speaker 2: be like, damn it, you know, I missed pilot season.
Speaker 2: And then I booked it and I realized that it
Speaker 2: did not satisfy me the way I thought I was
Speaker 2: going to satisfy me, and it really really freaked me
Speaker 2: out because I got, you know, I was fortunate enough
Speaker 2: to get my quote dream and it didn't satisfy I
Speaker 2: was like, oh shit, this is where to now and
Speaker 2: it was and then after that was canceled, when I
Speaker 2: kind of kicked into therapy, and I just realized like
Speaker 2: that whole thing of like, if you're not practicing content
Speaker 2: me where you are, you're not going to be content
Speaker 2: when you get what you want. And I had not
Speaker 2: been practicing contentment, you know, all my time in New York.
Speaker 2: I mean not that, not that I didn't love my
Speaker 2: time in New York, but anytime I was going through stuff,
Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, whatever, that big thing's
Speaker 2: come and that big things came in and I gave
Speaker 2: it much weight, way too much weight, and match that weight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like putting too many eggs in one basket. Right,
Speaker 1: we understand why that's bad or should be observed or
Speaker 1: however you define it in a relationship. You know, you
Speaker 1: hear you want you want to be happy with someone
Speaker 1: but not co dependent. But nobody talks about codependence with
Speaker 1: your career expectations or your personal goals. And it's kind
Speaker 1: of striking me that that's sort of what it feels like,
Speaker 1: you think, like, you know, it's the it's the work
Speaker 1: version of like once I meet you know, my my
Speaker 1: Prince Charming from the Disney movie, Everything's going to be amazing,
Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, somebody still has to do the dishes, actually,
Speaker 1: so good luck.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's also a big difference what I'm learning
Speaker 2: with codependency and healthy dependence. Yeah, we need each other.
Speaker 2: We're made community, We're made for relationships. And I've i've
Speaker 2: I jokingly harp on codependency a lot because it's a strong,
Speaker 2: strong than my history. But like, it doesn't mean I'm
Speaker 2: supposed to be massively independent or.
Speaker 1: Isolated, well, because that's not good either.
Speaker 2: That's not good either. There is a balance of healthy
Speaker 2: relying on each other, you know, and.
Speaker 1: And where the reliance feels like joy, where it feels
Speaker 1: like love totally, you know how nice, Like what a
Speaker 1: what a thing? I'm curious, you know, when you talk
Speaker 1: about that early success with Arrested, it's really interesting because
Speaker 1: it makes me realize something like when I was working
Speaker 1: on my first show, which similar thing, right like in
Speaker 1: the early opts, you book a WB show like right
Speaker 1: after Dawson's Creek, you know, what a thing. But then
Speaker 1: our show also got relentlessly made fun of because it
Speaker 1: was high tabloid culture the soup loved to talk about
Speaker 1: and to be perfectly clear for our listeners, we were
Speaker 1: doing a really dumb shit on that show, so like
Speaker 1: they deserve to make fun of it. But in a
Speaker 1: weird way, it gave me the opposite thing where I
Speaker 1: was doing this thing that was largely pretty amazing and
Speaker 1: kind of ridiculous, but ridiculous is fun, and I got
Speaker 1: so almost allergic to liking it or thinking it was
Speaker 1: good and only as a pandemic project. Rewatching the show
Speaker 1: for a podcast with my friends, cause like how could
Speaker 1: we work and what were we all doing? Anyway, we
Speaker 1: were like, wait, this a lot of this is actually
Speaker 1: really good. Like occasionally, you know, a dog eats a
Speaker 1: guy's heart on the way to the hospital transplant, Like
Speaker 1: that's ridiculous, but actually, these emotions, these actors, Like I
Speaker 1: even looked back at myself and I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, you really ate up that scene, okay, And
Speaker 1: I've been able to kind of enjoy it in a
Speaker 1: way I didn't. Then, are you at a point where
Speaker 1: you can go back and look at the those things
Speaker 1: and just love them and love your time on them, or.
Speaker 2: Yet I think, I'm man, it's a it's a tough
Speaker 2: one because it's it's it's hard for me to watch
Speaker 2: it and not constantly think how the sausage was made
Speaker 2: or how this almost the feelings that I was going through.
Speaker 2: I mean I was so overwhelmed arrested, which, by the way,
Speaker 2: I would not have been able to play job on
Speaker 2: that show because he was super confident. Thankfully, I was
Speaker 2: playing like a very overwhelmed you know character was having
Speaker 2: panic attacks every other day. So I mean that worked,
Speaker 2: but I I think I was I was so honestly,
Speaker 2: it's I related. I relate it to that kid in
Speaker 2: middle school, like it's taken me a little time to
Speaker 2: kind of be like I get you. I'm getting there
Speaker 2: with that time, unarrested because I was just in this
Speaker 2: uh really really, I never been on a stage. I've
Speaker 2: never been a lot. I just asked a lot of
Speaker 2: stupid questions. I mean I was just kind of overwhelmed.
Speaker 2: So I think there's a little bit of a not embarrassment,
Speaker 2: but kind of But then again, and also maybe I
Speaker 2: gave a lot of power to people that I probably
Speaker 2: just that I probably should not have given in just
Speaker 2: the business in general, you know, so kind of that's
Speaker 2: where I go back. I'm like, God, I really gave
Speaker 2: that personal a lot of power, you know, that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. But that's Those are the regrets I have.
Speaker 2: But in terms of the work I do really. I mean,
Speaker 2: like my favorite joke on the show is Tobias joining
Speaker 2: the Blue Man Group because he thinks it's a support
Speaker 2: group of depressed men. I mean, I think that is
Speaker 2: so later, and like him trusting he was my Him
Speaker 2: and Job were probably my favorite characters. Will Arnett was
Speaker 2: just you know what, I'm circling back. But it's like
Speaker 2: I think watching other people on that show, it gives
Speaker 2: me I love me, but for people. Yeah, and Deep
Speaker 2: is a different story because it happened later and so
Speaker 2: that I have no issue. I mean I enjoy that.
Speaker 2: And I love watching bluep of reels because oh I
Speaker 2: love that. That's what I remember. I remember just not
Speaker 2: being able to keep it together. I mean, you know
Speaker 2: that feeling like when your whole body is shaking and
Speaker 2: you're just like, I I'm really trying my hardest, but
Speaker 2: I'm I'm not gonna be able to make this and
Speaker 2: I know the camera's on me, and I guess I'm
Speaker 2: gonna lose it. That kind of feeling. I love watching
Speaker 2: that stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh it's such a joy too, Like whether it's
Speaker 1: you or someone you love to watch. Watching Somebody Break
Speaker 1: really is one of my favorite, like favorite moments.
Speaker 2: That I mean, I don't know if you grew up
Speaker 2: you're younger than me, but the Caroburnett Show was a
Speaker 2: big influence on me. And they would always Harve Tim
Speaker 2: Conway trying to break up Harvey Korman just and you
Speaker 2: can just see the pain in Harvey Korn. It's so
Speaker 2: good and it's so freeing. It's such a moment of
Speaker 2: accidental joy where it's yeah, nothing is planned, They're just
Speaker 2: free and you're like, oh, I watched that. I just
Speaker 2: I was telling somebody recently, it's like I would love
Speaker 2: a comic con for just bloopers like I just to
Speaker 2: like just be absorbed, and I love it.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute after a few
Speaker 1: words from our favorite sponsors. Is that so surreal to you?
Speaker 1: Because when you talk about VEEP, I think about that
Speaker 1: that level of complete political absurdity that you all were portraying.
Speaker 1: And half of the days of my week now when
Speaker 1: I look at the news, I'm like, is this a
Speaker 1: headline from the Onion or is this the New York Times?
Speaker 1: Like what's happening? Is it? Is it surreal? To you,
Speaker 1: are you like, oh god, in some woo woo world,
Speaker 1: like did we manifest?
Speaker 2: This?
Speaker 1: Is this the secret come to life?
Speaker 2: Like that's so good? I do, I do. But what's
Speaker 2: even more surreal is I remember an episode where Selena
Speaker 2: was she tweeted something accidentally and we were all like
Speaker 2: she we were all freaking out. And Trump lives on Twitter,
Speaker 2: you know, stuff like that. Yes, and you're like, wait
Speaker 2: a second, we were we thought this was extreme, and
Speaker 2: now you know, CNN is its own political sitcom. You know,
Speaker 2: it's that kind of And that's I think partly why
Speaker 2: we or they stopped. I mean, I would have kept
Speaker 2: going because I love them so much, but it was
Speaker 2: there was nothing. Everything was had just become its own farce,
Speaker 2: you know, wild. I mean, I'd love to go back,
Speaker 2: but I think it just got things got too extreme.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I would give anything, please bring it back.
Speaker 1: But I yeah, it is. It is kind of. It
Speaker 1: must be a wild feeling to have read scripts for
Speaker 1: that show and gone, okay, well, no one would really
Speaker 1: do this. And now you see what's actually on the
Speaker 1: internet from the literal president, and you go, oh, if
Speaker 1: we'd written a fraction of that. The heads of the
Speaker 1: studio would have said we were being insane and it
Speaker 1: could never.
Speaker 2: Go on the air totally. And I think that's exactly
Speaker 2: what it happened. That the writers would be like, if
Speaker 2: we had written a character like this easily, the note
Speaker 2: would have been too broad. This is great, we've gotten
Speaker 2: away from our because we're always trying to ground it somehow.
Speaker 2: And it's like, two, a cartoon character is, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of out there.
Speaker 1: It's so nuts to me. It's like, we live in
Speaker 1: the family. Guy. Do those things do you think they
Speaker 1: strike you more deeply? Perhaps because of the way that
Speaker 1: you grew up, because when I think about when I
Speaker 1: look at the movie and this that you play, and
Speaker 1: then I think about some of the things that you've
Speaker 1: talked about in the ways you grew up and the
Speaker 1: ways you came into the work. And you know, your
Speaker 1: dad was a physics teacher and suddenly science is under attack,
Speaker 1: your mom was involved in politics, and then you did Beep,
Speaker 1: and now a cartoon character is the president, Like how
Speaker 1: does it all kind of how does the dust settle
Speaker 1: for you in your experience when you look around at
Speaker 1: all of this.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the first thing I thought about when
Speaker 2: you said that is there is an irritation component of man,
Speaker 2: there's I mean, honestly not to like. For instance, my
Speaker 2: faith is important to me and I grew up in
Speaker 2: a kind of a conservative environment, and many times there
Speaker 2: is an association with my faith with a certain party
Speaker 2: and it's if anything, I just go, ah, that's not
Speaker 2: the faith I'm experiencing, you know, Like Christ says the
Speaker 2: fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
Speaker 2: and self control. That that's the fruit of someone following God.
Speaker 2: I can't find one of those in a person that
Speaker 2: is associated with with my faith. That's you know. And
Speaker 2: I kind of I mean not to get too political,
Speaker 2: but it's like that's when I get just speaking of
Speaker 2: weep and I remember doing a storyline where my character
Speaker 2: was kind of connected to kind of the faith component,
Speaker 2: and I it was I that whole narrative, not the
Speaker 2: narrative of the show, but just the narrative those out
Speaker 2: there is really frustrating. You know. It's a very powerless
Speaker 2: feelings sometimes because I'm like, wait a second, this isn't tracking,
Speaker 2: you know, totally. Yeah, that was a total tangent, But
Speaker 2: that when you were talking about that. That's where my
Speaker 2: mind went immediately went no, but I think.
Speaker 1: That's really powerful, the kind of incongruous nature of the
Speaker 1: like preachers with private planes telling us to deport people
Speaker 1: and take food away from children. You're like, whoa, this
Speaker 1: is literally the opposite of what I learned. I feel confused,
Speaker 1: and it is surreal. I you know, I feel really lucky.
Speaker 1: I grew up my mom like deep Catholic family. My
Speaker 1: dad grew up in a sect of Christianity and became
Speaker 1: an atheist, and the entire rest of my family is Jewish,
Speaker 1: and so I've done like all of the religious studies,
Speaker 1: which I adore. And it is that incongruous experience of
Speaker 1: watching people tell you. It's like someone saying to you,
Speaker 1: I promise the sky is green, and it says so
Speaker 1: in this book, and you're like, but it doesn't. It
Speaker 1: literally says the sky is blue. And also the sky
Speaker 1: is blue and I can see it and what And
Speaker 1: it's so it's so confusing. But what I think, this
Speaker 1: is going to be a wild connection. But this is
Speaker 1: what's coming into my mind, and I hope you'll ride
Speaker 1: this train with me. What I think stands out so
Speaker 1: powerfully even in this very funny, strange, hybrid authentic and
Speaker 1: heartbreaking but still so light in its moments movie you've made.
Speaker 1: Is that the whole thing really is about a hero's
Speaker 1: journey and a group of people learning to tell each
Speaker 1: other the truth even when it's hard, and that to
Speaker 1: me is kind of a spiritual thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's really powerful because I when you were talking,
Speaker 2: I just immediately thought about the world the word control,
Speaker 2: where it's the people are just trying to control a
Speaker 2: narrative or doing things and say like this, and it's like, listen,
Speaker 2: stop pointing the finger. You got to point the finger
Speaker 2: back at yourself. Like we've got to start. I mean
Speaker 2: just like that's bad. That's bad. It's like, no, let's
Speaker 2: let's just start taking care of our own six feet
Speaker 2: and be like what am I? What do I need
Speaker 2: to work on? Who do I need to love? If
Speaker 2: we start doing that, then that might cause some kind
Speaker 2: of a change, the change that you're trying to If
Speaker 2: you do that, then I might start doing that. But
Speaker 2: it's like in the movie the dad who I play,
Speaker 2: you know, he really thought compartmentalizing grief was kind of
Speaker 2: the best thing to do, so if I can control it.
Speaker 2: If I cannot, because he leaves me his wife in
Speaker 2: the movie, and I mean I get it. I mean
Speaker 2: I've I've got a nineteen year old daughter. I do
Speaker 2: not want her to walk through challenges I don't want
Speaker 2: to field. I mean, I want her to be happy
Speaker 2: and all that hit that impulse. But if I tried,
Speaker 2: he in the character of the movie, you know, doesn't
Speaker 2: have pictures of her in the house. He really talk
Speaker 2: about his wife, he and in his he really thinks
Speaker 2: this is the equation to save the situation, when in actuality,
Speaker 2: he's got to let go of that control and allow
Speaker 2: his kids to process them the way they're going to
Speaker 2: process them. That's how they're going to get through it.
Speaker 2: And I feel like, you're right, that's kind of this.
Speaker 2: What's happening is like in people's mind, they think, no,
Speaker 2: if I do this, if I try to control this,
Speaker 2: that's going to be the equation. Now you gotta let
Speaker 2: go of that control and process it your own way
Speaker 2: and back at yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that adage. You know, when I point
Speaker 1: the finger at you, there's three fingers pointing back at me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a nice reminder. I think when you talk about
Speaker 1: the movie and for our friends at home, Sketch was
Speaker 1: released yesterday. How do you feel now that it's out
Speaker 1: in the world. I mean, you talked at the top
Speaker 1: of our conversation about putting eight years of effort into
Speaker 1: getting this movie made. What's it like to have an
Speaker 1: eight year old in the world for the last twenty
Speaker 1: four hours. How do you feel?
Speaker 2: Well? Thanks for First of all, that's really kind of
Speaker 2: you to watch it and talk about it. I uh.
Speaker 2: I think it goes back to that control. It's like
Speaker 2: I am powerless to how people. I love it so much.
Speaker 2: It's it means so much to me I and I
Speaker 2: really want people to experience the joy that I have
Speaker 2: experienced from it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't have that control, and I want that control.
Speaker 2: I mean I've been doing press for a while and
Speaker 2: it's hard not to be like, watch Sketch. I promise you,
Speaker 2: no love it.
Speaker 1: I promise you it's going to make you feel so
Speaker 1: good fx you.
Speaker 2: But it's you know, I don't have that, and so
Speaker 2: it's now it's just that kind of vulnerability of like, hey,
Speaker 2: I gotta just let it go.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, releasing it into the wild is.
Speaker 2: Like, oh, it's tough, hard, it's tough.
Speaker 1: What drew you to it?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Because I always think it's good you spoke earlier about
Speaker 1: how you know you'll talk to younger actors. I think
Speaker 1: it's so important to let people know how hard it
Speaker 1: is and how long it takes to get something made,
Speaker 1: and for you to stick by this thing for close
Speaker 1: to a decade. When did it come to you? How
Speaker 1: did it come to you? What made you say, you know,
Speaker 1: come hell or high water. I am going to get
Speaker 1: this movie out, Like, why do you think it got
Speaker 1: in you like that?
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're fear like this too, I
Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know, but something just kept because
Speaker 2: you know, eight years ago, when Seth Worley, the writer
Speaker 2: and director, brought me kind of half the script, I
Speaker 2: was like, dang, because I knew his history with special effects,
Speaker 2: and even even in the movie, she's drawing things out
Speaker 2: of chalk or crayon or sharpie or glitter, and you
Speaker 2: can see the textures and the monsters when they come
Speaker 2: to life. Yes, and I just loved his detail of that.
Speaker 2: And then at the same time, being a dad, I
Speaker 2: was like, I got the there's a new term called
Speaker 2: snowplow parenting, where it's not helicopter parenting, but you want
Speaker 2: to move all the challenges in front of your kid.
Speaker 2: You want to just snowplow them away. And I get that.
Speaker 2: I fully get that, and I when I saw it,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, man, I like the idea of
Speaker 2: not only a kid watching this and feeling seen that, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we all process feelings differently, but parents just given themselves
Speaker 2: a break, you know of like, yeah, he is a
Speaker 2: learning curve. Of course this dad thought he was doing
Speaker 2: the right thing, and everybody else is like, whoa, let
Speaker 2: your kids feel, Let your kids feel. But in his
Speaker 2: mind he's like, no, we got to move. Like he
Speaker 2: just was in survival mode, you know. So I liked
Speaker 2: I resonated with that. But yeah, to the what to
Speaker 2: your question of it's hard, it's crazy man, this and
Speaker 2: you can relate to this. I mean we've both done
Speaker 2: work and at the time it looks like working all
Speaker 2: the time, when in actuality, there's months in between those
Speaker 2: jobs where you're hining for work. You're like, when's the
Speaker 2: next job and how is this going to be received?
Speaker 2: And you're gig to gig, you know, you're calling your
Speaker 2: agent and you'll be like, hey' is anything going on?
Speaker 2: What's happening. It's like there is a I've been doing
Speaker 2: this for thirty years and there's you know, there's just
Speaker 2: there was a season actually after arrest of development, where
Speaker 2: we thought we were gonna have to sell our house
Speaker 2: because we were like, we don't know if I remember
Speaker 2: the month that arrest had got canceled, we bought a
Speaker 2: house and my daughter was born. So this was, you know,
Speaker 2: almost two years ago, and I turned to my wife
Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't I don't know what
Speaker 2: to do. I don't know what and so we kind
Speaker 2: of kept going and gigs weren't really flying that much,
Speaker 2: and I was and we've talked to our kind of
Speaker 2: our financial consultant, be like, do we think we need
Speaker 2: to sell the house, And he's like, we're not there yet,
Speaker 2: but it might be coming, you know, And you're like,
Speaker 2: you know, you just but that's kind of and then
Speaker 2: you kind of take funds from other things and you
Speaker 2: make it work. But it is a bit of a
Speaker 2: piecemeal together. Koreer and as you, I mean, we both
Speaker 2: know this business. This man is I so many times
Speaker 2: people have said, hey, you just can't take it personally.
Speaker 2: You just can't take it personally. It's hard to not
Speaker 2: take a personally. Yeah, right, it's tough.
Speaker 1: One of the craziest things about that to me as
Speaker 1: an actor is our entire job is to be so
Speaker 1: raw and so empathetic that we can feel another person's
Speaker 1: feelings and portray them as our own. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: we get our feelings hurt and people are like, don't
Speaker 1: let it hurt your feelings. I'm like, are you nuts?
Speaker 2: Are you?
Speaker 1: Are you nuts? It's like the weird misnomer. It's like
Speaker 1: the comment section people on the internet are like, look
Speaker 1: at how many this point, this many million. You must
Speaker 1: just have people kissing your ass. I'm going to be
Speaker 1: doubly mean to you. And it's like, so you're just
Speaker 1: doubly mean. I'm just running into doubly mean people all
Speaker 1: day and I'm not supposed to let it affect me.
Speaker 1: I'm like a sensitive little smush. What do you mean,
Speaker 1: I'm like moving around in the world like a snail
Speaker 1: without a shell.
Speaker 2: I'm built. That's your job too, Like you have to
Speaker 2: you got to access these feelings, and you're right, you
Speaker 2: can't turn them off when somebody says words like it,
Speaker 2: it does and when somebody says like if you're going
Speaker 2: for me, if I'm going out for a job, and
Speaker 2: someone's like, yeah, you weren't right? What's that? What what
Speaker 2: I'm like?
Speaker 1: But what do you mean?
Speaker 2: What do you mean? And it's also the sense of like,
Speaker 2: I sure i'd loved I know, I know that it's
Speaker 2: I wasn't right, but it's it's tough to not feel it.
Speaker 1: You get well, yeah, because then you think, but what
Speaker 1: could I have done that would have been right?
Speaker 2: Totally, totally totally.
Speaker 1: And you know what I've started to do. Here's here's
Speaker 1: a little nugget. I don't know why it's helping, but
Speaker 1: this came out of a conversation with one of my
Speaker 1: best friends where we were talking about why is the
Speaker 1: negative weigh so heavy and the positive way so light?
Speaker 1: Why why isn't everything just for a pound of flesh
Speaker 1: if you will? And we were like, Okay, how do
Speaker 1: we take the things that feel hard and put a
Speaker 1: little humor on them? Or a little something you don't
Speaker 1: get a job, or you don't get the thing, or
Speaker 1: something doesn't go your way, like how do you take
Speaker 1: your power back a little bit? And what we've both
Speaker 1: started to do is, you know, will vent about something
Speaker 1: or be sad about something and then be like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: sucks for them. I'm so fun, and like that's the
Speaker 1: end of it. I'm so fun. I'm such a good time.
Speaker 1: I bring good snacks, like whatever dumb thing any of
Speaker 1: us can think of. And it's funny because none of
Speaker 1: my best friend and like the little group that we
Speaker 1: do this with on a on a group chat, like
Speaker 1: none of us work in the same industries. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: we're all experiencing our own versions of the same thing.
Speaker 1: And I'm just like, sucks for them, I'm a good time.
Speaker 1: And that's then I get a little bit of it back.
Speaker 2: No, great that I'm so fun, Like I was saying that,
Speaker 2: because oh my god, I'm so fun. I'm so fun.
Speaker 2: Because the amount of other talk give ourselves. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: that that closet that like packed full of shame is full.
Speaker 2: You know, it's totally I can just completely rip myself
Speaker 2: apart and take my court and constantly, you know, all
Speaker 2: the all the time, those little things like I'm so fun,
Speaker 2: we just don't even saying it. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: power in kind of putting a label on it, that's
Speaker 2: like yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1: Even in this conversation me to you, I'm like, Tony,
Speaker 1: you're brilliant and like you're a good time, You're a
Speaker 1: good hang. It must be really, it's so nice to
Speaker 1: be smart and fun.
Speaker 2: Take it with you, dub.
Speaker 1: Mercy, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
Speaker 2: I like that. I really love you're doing a podcast,
Speaker 2: by the way, because I think you're really good at this.
Speaker 1: Thanks. You know what for a person who's like absolutely
Speaker 1: a little bit on the spectrum, who wants to have
Speaker 1: deep talks and who always no matter what, like I
Speaker 1: would tell I would say like six out of nine,
Speaker 1: six out of ten times I go to a thing,
Speaker 1: I don't know what happens. I don't know if I like,
Speaker 1: if I have a little bit of some sort of
Speaker 1: energy that I can't help but let seep out into
Speaker 1: the world. I wind up in a corner and somebody's
Speaker 1: like telling me their deepest, darkest secrets. We're unpacking what's
Speaker 1: going on in their relationship or with their family or whatever.
Speaker 1: And I kind of love that. But I also realize
Speaker 1: occasionally where I'm like, ooh, I'm having like a really
Speaker 1: I'm having that little like ADHD with the Wing experience
Speaker 1: where I ask a question and I'm like, ooh, the room.
Speaker 1: One other person's there with me, but like the other
Speaker 1: four people in this conversation are like, that's kind of
Speaker 1: a lot. I realized a podcast gives me the container
Speaker 1: within which to ask questions, to let conversations be as
Speaker 1: deep as they want to be. And and I love it.
Speaker 1: I just love it. And like, I don't know, maybe
Speaker 1: it's because I grew up begging my mom to pick
Speaker 1: me up early from school so i'd be home before
Speaker 1: Oprah started, not ten minutes after. It's after her show started,
Speaker 1: so I could just watch her like talk to people
Speaker 1: about their lives.
Speaker 2: You know, that's cool.
Speaker 1: But I love it.
Speaker 2: You always had, you always walk into that permission of
Speaker 2: being like, this is always going to be that conversation
Speaker 2: that's nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if it's and if it's light and we're
Speaker 1: like laughing and being stupid the whole time, great. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's a hybrid. Sometimes it's really serious and I like
Speaker 1: getting to meet people where they are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of COOLT Holmes calls. He says,
Speaker 2: some people have to tell you tell me your pain
Speaker 2: face and I totally just like there's an openness to
Speaker 2: like your face or that it's like people feel free
Speaker 2: to like just tell me the pain, which you know,
Speaker 2: I also really enjoy that. Try not to fix it,
Speaker 2: that's the challenge. That's that's tough. But yeah, it's hard
Speaker 2: for me because I want to be like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: this is what I went through, and it's like, no,
Speaker 2: why don't you just listen Tony.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Another one that I got from my therapist, which
Speaker 1: is really good, is when I can feel that urge
Speaker 1: coming to say, quick question, do you want to talk
Speaker 1: about how to solve it? Or do you just need
Speaker 1: someone to listen to the problem. And if I can
Speaker 1: know myself well enough to ask that question, then the
Speaker 1: person I'm talking to can tell me what they need
Speaker 1: and in a weird way, then I don't feel like
Speaker 1: they want me to fix something. And if they do,
Speaker 1: I'm like, you trusted me with that?
Speaker 2: Yay. That's actually I lose that on my daughter. That's
Speaker 2: really in my wife because we you know, like I
Speaker 2: do have that compulsion to be like oh, especially with
Speaker 2: my daughter, like I've been through this and it's like, no,
Speaker 2: I want me do you want a solution? Right now,
Speaker 2: do you want my thoughts on a solution or do
Speaker 2: you want me just to listen totally?
Speaker 1: And it's nice for them, and it's nice for you
Speaker 1: because I get the sense, you know, maybe anxiety recognizes anxiety.
Speaker 1: It's like the less cool version of like game recognizes game. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm like, if I don't know what someone needs, I
Speaker 1: actually can get a little anxious listening because I have
Speaker 1: all these thoughts and I don't know when it's appropriate
Speaker 1: to say which one, And weirdly asking them the question
Speaker 1: makes it easier for them and also so much easier
Speaker 1: for me. So it's kind of nice. It's like a
Speaker 1: double gift.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: As a dad being in this position, I can't imagine
Speaker 1: what it's like to have a kid that's, you know,
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty who's out in the world. Because to your
Speaker 1: point of course, you want to remove obstacles and difficulty
Speaker 1: from your children's lives, your child's life, but they learn
Speaker 1: resiliency by encountering problems and solving them. And so the
Speaker 1: duality of that, I imagine, two decades into doing it
Speaker 1: is pretty intense. Knowing about your personal struggles with anxiety,
Speaker 1: you know, your your own experiences processing your childhood. How
Speaker 1: do you feel like you can look back at your
Speaker 1: history and then forward at what you watch your kid
Speaker 1: do and figure out how to how to parent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a tough one because I mean I wouldn't
Speaker 2: just like both of us, probably, I wouldn't be who
Speaker 2: I am without everything I've gone through.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: In fact, like there's no way I would not have empathy.
Speaker 2: I mean all that kind of stuff is the result
Speaker 2: of what I've been through. But it's like, man, it's
Speaker 2: like that that knowledge in me turns off with her,
Speaker 2: Like it's just I just there is a there's a
Speaker 2: when they're growing up, there's a big difference between a
Speaker 2: performance cry and a real cry. You know, like because
Speaker 2: I had that cry, we're just that kind of you know,
Speaker 2: like there's a little bit of like I need some
Speaker 2: attention or I need you know, whatever it's it's but
Speaker 2: when there's a real genuine cry and that you can
Speaker 2: see their feelings will hurt. Oh, it is absolutely heartbreaking.
Speaker 2: And to this day, like when she's really I mean
Speaker 2: she obviously the performance cries go away when they're little,
Speaker 2: but it's like anytime she's hurt or I can see
Speaker 2: that paint. It's just there is Oh, it's just that
Speaker 2: you just want to rescue them, just constantly ecue them.
Speaker 2: And she has got to walk through it, she's got
Speaker 2: to feel it, and I've just got to come over
Speaker 2: her and listen, like to your point and not give
Speaker 2: a solution unless she asks. And man, there's just I
Speaker 2: don't even I don't even know. I just take a
Speaker 2: day to day. I mean, she's actually come home. She's
Speaker 2: been working in a camp as a counselor for the
Speaker 2: past month and a half and so.
Speaker 1: She said, I did that. I loved being a camp counselor.
Speaker 2: She loves it. It was the same camp that she's
Speaker 2: been going to for like ten years. And yeah, she's
Speaker 2: coming home tomorrow and oh man, it's both my wife
Speaker 2: and I are just like we're super but at the
Speaker 2: same time, you want to give them space and you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's been kind of in performance mode for a month
Speaker 2: and a half and so like totally have her space.
Speaker 2: But it's just like hei, hi, hi, hi.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh my god, I missed you so much.
Speaker 1: I don't want you to know how much, but it's
Speaker 1: so much.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's so sweet.
Speaker 2: The day to day thing of like just really trying
Speaker 2: to check myself.
Speaker 1: You know, well that and I don't want to give
Speaker 1: any spoilers away to the movie, but you know, also
Speaker 1: being an adult anxious asthmatic kid.
Speaker 2: Who is You're an asthmatic kid, you are too, I know.
Speaker 1: It's really I was like, I could always tell.
Speaker 2: There was something tribe look at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but there's like this really cool thing that happens.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of how to reflect on it
Speaker 1: without spoiling anything for our audience. A scene in your
Speaker 1: film with you and the wonderful young actress who plays
Speaker 1: your daughter by the lake or the pond, however we
Speaker 1: classify it, and you really see each other and you
Speaker 1: get to explain some things to her and she gets
Speaker 1: to explain some things to you, and it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1: And maybe the reason I thought about it this way
Speaker 1: is because my therapist is really worth every penny I
Speaker 1: pay him. But I was like, oh, this is one
Speaker 1: of those moments where some part of me gets reparented
Speaker 1: by watching a by watching what's happening between a parent
Speaker 1: and a child. Yeah, and I know that when you
Speaker 1: have kids, you know, I've got little kids in my life.
Speaker 1: You get these opportunities parenting them, assisting them that sort
Speaker 1: of reparent something in you. Did this? Did this movie
Speaker 1: feel like that for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It did. I mean the other actor, Q Lawrence,
Speaker 2: who played my son, and.
Speaker 1: They were both unbelievable kids.
Speaker 2: Such good kids. You know, one thing that I really
Speaker 2: connected to was just the dad. There's a moment when
Speaker 2: the dad just says, I kind of screwed up. You know,
Speaker 2: I really really miscalculated how to process this whole situation.
Speaker 2: And you know, I recently actually did that with my daughter.
Speaker 2: I'm talking to her and I remember when she was
Speaker 2: really young and I got kind of mad at her
Speaker 2: about something and it was just silly. I was stressed
Speaker 2: out and she was being a kid, and I remember
Speaker 2: there's just this moment where I was like, you can't
Speaker 2: do this, and I could just see that face in
Speaker 2: her and I said, sweetheart. And today, like when she
Speaker 2: was home, I was like, I remember this moment and
Speaker 2: I'm just so sorry. I was this was so angry
Speaker 2: about this stupid thing, and she's like, you know, Dad,
Speaker 2: I don't even she don't think she even remembered it.
Speaker 2: But you know, you just the more and it's hard.
Speaker 2: It's hard because there's a part of there's a part
Speaker 2: of humanity where you feel like if I I'm that weak,
Speaker 2: then it somehow it's not connected to strength, you know,
Speaker 2: like they're not gonna they're not gonna see me as
Speaker 2: whatever that whatever I think a parent needs to be
Speaker 2: seen as. And it's like we're if they there's so
Speaker 2: much prower in the humanity of like, man, I'm just
Speaker 2: I really I messed that one up, but you know,
Speaker 2: I love you and I'm doing my best that kind
Speaker 2: of thing. I think there's so much power in that
Speaker 2: that I I, even as a parent, still think I
Speaker 2: have to reframe like, yeah, there is power in that
Speaker 2: being that honest.
Speaker 1: You know, absolutely, And I'd wager it takes more power,
Speaker 1: more conviction, uh more wisdom to be courageous and vulnerable
Speaker 1: in that way than it does to do the quick
Speaker 1: to anger oh traditional power strength thing totally.
Speaker 2: And you know, the fact is my daughter is probably
Speaker 2: more than likely probably going to be in therapy one
Speaker 2: day for how having an anxious you know, yeah you
Speaker 2: know who like was playing crazy characters? I don't know,
Speaker 2: but like there's going to be something that is going
Speaker 2: to deal with and of course, as a part of
Speaker 2: me that was like, what did I do wrong? What
Speaker 2: did I do wrong? Well, we're human, you know. I
Speaker 2: there's no perfection in that. You know. That's but that's
Speaker 2: that's kind of a reality. That's like, Yeah, that's probably
Speaker 2: gonna happen. She's going to be in therapy for something.
Speaker 1: I mean, aren't we all? Yeah, it's okay. What do
Speaker 1: you think you know, looking at the kind of land
Speaker 1: scape of what you're processing as a person, what you're
Speaker 1: releasing into the world as a professional, you know, even
Speaker 1: the fact that you're you're about to get your kid
Speaker 1: back from summer camp, Like there's so much happening in
Speaker 1: every sphere. What at this point feels like your work
Speaker 1: in progress, the thing you want to tackle next, or
Speaker 1: maybe the thing you're going to tackle forever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I got this question recently. Sounds super cheesy,
Speaker 2: but I'm just going to say it. It was during
Speaker 2: an interview and they can ask what's next? They said
Speaker 2: what's next for you? And I said, honestly, now I'm
Speaker 2: going to turn into Oprah. But I said, honestly, at
Speaker 2: this stage of my life, Uh, there's I'm really trying
Speaker 2: to ask myself what's here? Because I don't. I've been
Speaker 2: just for so long. And there's nothing wrong with ambition,
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with dreaming, there's nothing wrong than you know,
Speaker 2: obviously planning and looking to the next thing. But so
Speaker 2: much of my life has been devoted to that of
Speaker 2: just thinking next and you know, wondering what's next, and
Speaker 2: I just haven't really taken the time to look around
Speaker 2: and ask myself, what's here? You know, what's going on here?
Speaker 2: What's where am I? Because those times when I do
Speaker 2: that is the things that I actually remember, ironically, you know,
Speaker 2: when I do take the time to look around and
Speaker 2: what's your life? My wife and I joke that we've
Speaker 2: been married for twenty two years and neither one of
Speaker 2: us remember our weddings because we just weren't. We kind
Speaker 2: of remember it, but it's like I was so distracted
Speaker 2: and I was so like, I don't know, just this
Speaker 2: kind of whirlwind, and I don't think either one of
Speaker 2: us were very present. And now it's like taking deep
Speaker 2: breast and kind of looking around and hey, what's here,
Speaker 2: what's here? That's kind of what I'm asking myself. So
Speaker 2: all that to say, I feel like it's been kind
Speaker 2: of going for these heightened experiences, and I've missed the
Speaker 2: power of kind of the every day, the power of
Speaker 2: the power of the ordinary. You know, life is fast.
Speaker 2: I'm fifty four years old. I just you know, started
Speaker 2: when I was twenty five, and it's like it's fast,
Speaker 2: and I just, you know, I I don't want to
Speaker 2: I don't, not in a sense of regret. But I
Speaker 2: think most of the power and life is in the ordinary,
Speaker 2: is in the every day, in relationships, not in these
Speaker 2: big mountaintop experiences. And I'm always looking to what's next.
Speaker 2: It's just not you know. So I as I get older,
Speaker 2: I want the power to really surface more in those
Speaker 2: every day Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that. What's here. That's a good work in progress, Tony,
Speaker 1: That's a good one.
Speaker 2: It's hard, though, I love it. My therapist says, I
Speaker 2: have to You have to wake yourself up one hundred
Speaker 2: times a day to where you are. And it's true.
Speaker 2: I just constantly to wake myself up because my head
Speaker 2: is somewhere else, Like it's checked into either anxiety, it's
Speaker 2: checked into dreaming, it's checked into whatever, and it's like
Speaker 2: I gotta check in to now, I gotta check in.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. Where can all of our friends at home
Speaker 1: watch sketch.
Speaker 2: Ye at theaters it opens? It opened yesterday, and uh yeah,
Speaker 2: they can watch it hopefully at a theater. Are you
Speaker 2: it's I think it's opening to like about two thousand screens.
Speaker 1: Amazing.
Speaker 2: So I'm just amazing stoked, and you know, and I
Speaker 2: first of all, I really appreciate you doing this. This
Speaker 2: is so nice.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, thank you? Are you kidding? It's It's
Speaker 1: a joy to have you on the show. I would
Speaker 1: like to volunteer myself as tribute for whatever project you're
Speaker 1: doing next, even if it takes eight years. I'm down.
Speaker 1: I'm a real I'm a I'm a like a dog
Speaker 1: with a bone. I can be a pain in the ass,
Speaker 1: which feels like gets stuff made, but also like I'm
Speaker 1: really fun, you know, like a like a fun pain
Speaker 1: in the ass.
Speaker 2: That's so great. I just this is a real gift
Speaker 2: to a lot of people. You're doing this though, because
Speaker 2: just being all these conversations, you know, it's an opportunity
Speaker 2: to kind of get a little deeper