Speaker 1: Guess what, mango? What's that? Will? All right?
Speaker 2: So I have something I need to get off my chest.
Speaker 2: But before I do, let me ask you this. Did
Speaker 2: you grow up around show biz or Chuck E Cheese?
Speaker 1: I think we actually had both in Delaware. They were
Speaker 1: both pretty popular for birthdays. Seriously, you had both? All right?
Speaker 2: Well, we only had Showbiz near us. And there's only
Speaker 2: one thing I actually really remember from going to show biz,
Speaker 2: you know, as like a five or six year old,
Speaker 2: and it was the Rock of Fire Explosion Band.
Speaker 1: Do you remember these guys? Of course, Mitzi, Mazzarella, Fasceronimo
Speaker 1: and the Keys. How can you forget?
Speaker 2: Well, I certainly won't ever forget them, nor will I
Speaker 2: ever forget where I used to stand when I watch
Speaker 2: them perform.
Speaker 1: You know, show Biz had this huge.
Speaker 2: Arcade room, but then you'd walk around the corner into
Speaker 2: this dark room where this weird animatronic band was playing.
Speaker 2: And I don't think I've ever been more simultaneously terrified
Speaker 2: and yet completely mesmerized as I was when I watched
Speaker 2: the Rock a Fire Explosion perform.
Speaker 1: Yeah. My guess is you weren't alone in that feeling.
Speaker 2: Well, so I'd stand in the doorway, and I'd watched
Speaker 2: them because for some reason I couldn't get enough of
Speaker 2: these guys. And you know, as you mentioned, you had
Speaker 2: Fat s Geronimo, the gorilla and the keys. He was
Speaker 2: always arguing with the guy Rolf de Wolf, the you know,
Speaker 2: the weird Ventrilocus wolf, you remember this. And then there
Speaker 2: was Billy Bob who fortunately he was the brown bear
Speaker 2: that would usually keep the peace among the band.
Speaker 1: And then you had that was his name.
Speaker 2: He was beach Bear, who always seemed high and he
Speaker 2: was on the guitar. And then Duke LaRue, the wannabe astronaut,
Speaker 2: this idiot mud who always missed his cue on the drums.
Speaker 2: Of course you mentioned Mitzi Mozzarella, the cheerleader who shared
Speaker 2: my love with Michael Jackson songs. There's one more why
Speaker 2: I'm not forgetting this embarrassing Who was the other one?
Speaker 1: Yeah? But wasn't there like a drunk bird?
Speaker 3: Oh right?
Speaker 2: How can I forget Looney Bird, the alcoholic bird who
Speaker 2: hung out in that barrel of gas a hall.
Speaker 1: What a crew. I know, you look back on it
Speaker 1: and it's so weird, Like what in the world were
Speaker 1: they thinking with that band?
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I loved them, and I was
Speaker 2: so scared of them. And you know, I don't know
Speaker 2: what it is about dark and weird things that draw
Speaker 2: us in. And the thing is, I had no idea
Speaker 2: there was an even darker and weirder story playing out
Speaker 2: for Showbiz at the time. This was near the end
Speaker 2: of the show Biz versus Chuck e Cheese pizza war,
Speaker 2: which is such a strange story and it's just one
Speaker 2: of the stories that's made us ask the question does
Speaker 2: pizza bring out the worst in people?
Speaker 1: So that's what we're gonna be talking about today. Let's
Speaker 1: get started.
Speaker 2: Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Speaker 2: Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good
Speaker 2: friend Mengesh hot Ticketter and on the other side of
Speaker 2: that soundproof glass is the man with the most angelic
Speaker 2: voice you've never heard, our brilliant producer, Tristan McNeil.
Speaker 1: You ready to talk about pizza Mango? I am, And
Speaker 1: I know we've been talking about doing a pizza themed
Speaker 1: episode for a while now and both of us are
Speaker 1: huge pizza lovers. I mean, who's not a pizza lover?
Speaker 1: Which is a good point. But it was wild as
Speaker 1: we started digging into the research, we just found so
Speaker 1: many stories about the dark history of pizza, like pizza
Speaker 1: wars and organized crime, so we decided to focus on those.
Speaker 2: We'll take a little break, at least from the dark
Speaker 2: side to talk to one of our favorite pizza geniuses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. We'll be talking to Scott Wiener, the
Speaker 1: founder of Scott's Pizza Tours, and he's actually the world
Speaker 1: record holder for the largest collection of pizza boxes. He's
Speaker 1: super interesting and he knows more about pizza history than
Speaker 1: anyone I know. He's definitely a pizza genius.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's dive into our topic. And we
Speaker 2: opened the show by talking about show biz and the
Speaker 2: fact that I had no idea that by walking into
Speaker 2: one of these I was unknowingly participating in one of
Speaker 2: the greatest pizza wars of all time and probably would
Speaker 2: have made it that much more exciting. So why don't
Speaker 2: we start with that one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good one. I mean, it doesn't get
Speaker 1: that much juicier than a battle between the creator of
Speaker 1: Pong and the inventor of Whack a Mole. No, it
Speaker 1: definitely doesn't.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, why don't you give us some of
Speaker 2: the background on how both Chuck E.
Speaker 1: Cheese and Showbiz got started. Cheese was first, and in
Speaker 1: fact the first one opened in San Jose, a couple
Speaker 1: of years before either of us was born. This was
Speaker 1: way back in nineteen seventy seven, and it was actually
Speaker 1: started by Nolan Bushnell, the founder of Atari. He's also
Speaker 1: the creator of Pong. He came up with the idea
Speaker 1: for the restaurant because he was spending so much of
Speaker 1: his time selling Atari consoles like to arcades. He thought
Speaker 1: there might be more money on the other side of
Speaker 1: the business, on the arcade end, so he dreamed up
Speaker 1: this idea for what would become Chuck E. Cheese's Pizza
Speaker 1: Time Theater. Well, and I thought it was interesting. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think both the animatronic.
Speaker 2: Performers and the pizza were part of this concept from
Speaker 2: the very beginning. So why don't you talk about those
Speaker 2: for just a minute. Yeah, they were, and both were
Speaker 2: kind of brilliant.
Speaker 1: What's more appetizing than an animatronic rat? Right, Well, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure why he chose a rat exactly, but it
Speaker 1: is interesting to hear his thinking on the animatronics. So
Speaker 1: he knew parents probably wouldn't be excited to bring their
Speaker 1: families to a typical arcade. So he was looking for
Speaker 1: a way to bring in some entertainment and make it
Speaker 1: ask much about the environment as it was the arcade games.
Speaker 1: Bushnell did a really interesting interview with The Atlantic a
Speaker 1: few years ago, and in it he says this, the
Speaker 1: reason for doing the animals was not for the kids.
Speaker 1: It was meant to be a headfake for the parents, right.
Speaker 1: And so then he also goes on to talk about
Speaker 1: the pizza and he explains there aren't too many ways
Speaker 1: to screw it up. If the dough is good, the
Speaker 1: cheese is good, and the sauce is good, the pizza
Speaker 1: is good. I didn't have any preconceived idea that I
Speaker 1: knew how to run a restaurant, but I knew simple
Speaker 1: was better.
Speaker 2: Both seems smart, I mean, it makes sense, all right.
Speaker 2: So what happens next, Well, Bushnell.
Speaker 1: Feels he's onto something and he wants to expand, so
Speaker 1: he starts looking for investors and enter Bob Brock, who's
Speaker 1: chairman of the Brock Hotel Corporation and a very successful
Speaker 1: franchise e of holiday inns. So the two of them
Speaker 1: started working together on a deal to rapidly expand the business,
Speaker 1: and Bushnell's job was really to figure out how to
Speaker 1: improve the animatronics so these things could be in restaurants
Speaker 1: all over the country if the rollout went well. All right,
Speaker 1: So this is this is around nineteen seventy eight, seventy nine,
Speaker 1: is that right? Yeah, And this is actually where the
Speaker 1: drama starts. It was right after these big discussions that
Speaker 1: Brock meets this young inventor, Aaron Fector, who's also the
Speaker 1: inventor of the Whack a Mole, And in weird timing,
Speaker 1: in Fector has been working on this animatronic band he
Speaker 1: called the wolf Pack five, and Brock felt they were
Speaker 1: much better than what Bushnell was doing.
Speaker 2: All right, So Brock gets nervous about this, and he's
Speaker 2: kind of uncertain, I guess, about the quality of the
Speaker 2: animatronics in Chuck E Cheese.
Speaker 1: Exactly, so much so that he actually decides to cancel
Speaker 1: his deal with Bushnell, and then he strikes a deal
Speaker 1: with Vector to make pretty much the same concept, and
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty the first show his pizza opened in
Speaker 1: Kansas City.
Speaker 2: That's such a bold move, that's crazy, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's weird that they just kept the pizza element as well,
Speaker 2: like they didn't seem to try to make it that
Speaker 2: much different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you think back to the Bushnell quote
Speaker 1: about why pizza earlier, it's a simple food. So it
Speaker 1: made it easier for them to move quickly.
Speaker 2: And I guess that's where a rock of fire explosion
Speaker 2: was born, right from the very beginning there. And you know,
Speaker 2: at that time, I had no eye idea was watching
Speaker 2: such a knockoff act. But if you look at I mean, they.
Speaker 1: Kind of just look shady, right they do.
Speaker 2: And I'm guessing it didn't take long for the lawsuits
Speaker 2: to come after.
Speaker 1: That, right, So first Chuck E Cheese suit Showbiz, and
Speaker 1: then Showbiz filed a countersuit, and it ultimately settled in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, with Showbiz agreeing to pay Chuck E
Speaker 1: Cheese a portion of their profits for something like fourteen
Speaker 1: or fifteen years.
Speaker 2: Well, and you know, this is an interesting time to
Speaker 2: be in this business because we talked about this in
Speaker 2: our Weird Summer Travel Guide episode. This was around the
Speaker 2: time that the video game market experienced a pretty big crash,
Speaker 2: so it was obviously not good for either of these chains.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not at all, And In fact, it hit Chuck
Speaker 1: E Cheese so hard that Bushnell eventually had to file
Speaker 1: for bankruptcy. And you know, after he was forced out
Speaker 1: of the company, Chuck E Cheese was acquired by Showviz.
Speaker 1: So I guess ultimately mister whackamole won the war here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's fair to say he won the battle. But
Speaker 1: in the end, they both.
Speaker 3: Lost the war.
Speaker 1: And how is that? Well, Showviz wasn't exactly thriving, and
Speaker 1: in their efforts to improve the company. Per foremance Fector
Speaker 1: lost out and he left with the Rock and Fire Bend,
Speaker 1: And so that was the last we saw them in showbiz.
Speaker 1: Then in nineteen ninety eight, the whole company rebranded as
Speaker 1: CEC Entertainment.
Speaker 2: Well, and now I see there are more than five
Speaker 2: hundred Chuck E Cheese locations around the country.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still a big deal.
Speaker 2: It definitely is. Well, that's such a weird but interesting story.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's talk about another battle where I
Speaker 2: found some of the trash talking pretty funny. That was
Speaker 2: the result of McDonald's attempt to enter the pizza market,
Speaker 2: something I didn't really remember, and this was back in
Speaker 2: the late eighties.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good one. So why don't you take
Speaker 1: this one? All right?
Speaker 2: Well, just a little bit of background on this one.
Speaker 2: And by the way, there's a great mental flaw story
Speaker 2: on this from Jake Rosen, one of our favorite writers there.
Speaker 2: So let's go back to the early nineteen eighties. McDonald's
Speaker 2: is an absolute giant, and as Jake pointed out, they
Speaker 2: owned nearly forty percent of what was then a forty
Speaker 2: eight billion.
Speaker 1: Dollar burger market, so incredible.
Speaker 2: Well, and they were looking for ways to keep growing
Speaker 2: from there, and because they were looking to break into
Speaker 2: the dinner game and a much big way, and the
Speaker 2: idea of taking over a meal time was not foreign
Speaker 2: to them, and they'd done this in the early seventies
Speaker 2: when they introduced the egg McMuffin. You know, despite being
Speaker 2: mocked by critics, the McMuffin was a.
Speaker 1: Huge success, a crush.
Speaker 2: Well, their customers would have disagreed. Their customers were really
Speaker 2: digging them.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I guess so you're saying they had
Speaker 1: their eyes on dinner though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, they'd conquered lunch and breakfast, and next
Speaker 2: was figuring out how to get people into their locations
Speaker 2: at night because for one reason or another, people saw
Speaker 2: burgers and their other offerings as more of a lunch thing,
Speaker 2: and that's when they started looking at this rapidly growing
Speaker 2: pizza market. And so you look at the late nineteen eighties,
Speaker 2: they decided it was time to make a move. So
Speaker 2: what they do well, It is important to note that,
Speaker 2: unlike the McMuffin introduction, that this was not going to
Speaker 2: be an easy transition when it came to the layout
Speaker 2: of their stores and their kitchen specifically. And this was
Speaker 2: honestly something I'd not really thought about. So first they
Speaker 2: had to develop this super quick cook oven and it
Speaker 2: wasn't exactly and so you know, in order to include
Speaker 2: the oven and other equipment related to it, they had
Speaker 2: to remodel their restaurants. And that wasn't actually the only
Speaker 2: space problem. Again, something I had not really thought much
Speaker 2: about until doing our research here. It was the windows
Speaker 2: and their drive through. So think about trying to fit
Speaker 2: a full pizza through one of those tiny windows. So
Speaker 2: in order to serve the pizza, they'd have to go
Speaker 2: back and expand all of them.
Speaker 1: But this didn't stop them from trying, oh not at all,
Speaker 1: not at all.
Speaker 2: I mean, it might have slowed down the rate at
Speaker 2: which they'd try to do some of their early testing.
Speaker 2: But in nineteen eighty nine they began testing in a
Speaker 2: couple dozen locations in Indiana and Kentucky.
Speaker 1: And this is where the trash talking started. Because I
Speaker 1: really want to get to the trashoar.
Speaker 2: A, right, we'll get to the trash talking. So enter
Speaker 2: Pizza Hut. So you know, they had to be at
Speaker 2: least a little bit nervous. I mean, they were the
Speaker 2: giant in the pizza business, but nobody was bigger than McDonald's,
Speaker 2: so this was definitely a threat.
Speaker 1: And they had to be ready with some good trash talking.
Speaker 1: So would they say, Well, if you look.
Speaker 2: Back at one of the regional ads, they warned peaeople,
Speaker 2: don't make a mixed steak to get it.
Speaker 1: They were really warning people about that.
Speaker 2: And then they started talking about their competition's mic frozen dough.
Speaker 1: That's such a low blow. I kind of like, how
Speaker 1: whenever you want to make fun of McDonald's to go
Speaker 1: to is just to add mick in front of anything exactly.
Speaker 1: That's why it's so ridiculous.
Speaker 2: I mean, I actually, for some reason started thinking about
Speaker 2: a brainstorming session at the Pizza Hut headquarters where they
Speaker 2: were just like, all right, what should we put Mick
Speaker 2: in front of to show.
Speaker 1: Those guys who's boss. It'd be like the one genius.
Speaker 2: He just rattles off like, hey, don't make a mixed
Speaker 2: steak by eating a mcfrozen pizza because it's the mic worst.
Speaker 2: And they were all like, that's brilliant. You don't mess
Speaker 2: with the hut.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why they'd hit in the big box. So
Speaker 1: you can tell I've thought about this a little little
Speaker 1: too much. So was it the trash talking that ultimately
Speaker 1: can the pizza for them?
Speaker 2: Well, I doubt that had that much to do with it,
Speaker 2: despite how brilliant those micklines were. But I mean it's
Speaker 2: not like McDonald's isn't used to some portion of the
Speaker 2: population mocking their food. And ultimately there were bigger factors
Speaker 2: beyond the restructuring of the restaurants that I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1: So think about prep time. I mean this was a
Speaker 1: big factor.
Speaker 2: Imagine pulling up to a window and ordering a couple
Speaker 2: burgers for one person and pizza for another. So they've
Speaker 2: got the quick burger thing down to a science. I mean,
Speaker 2: those suckers are ready in a minute and they're waiting
Speaker 2: for you at the window right as you pull up.
Speaker 2: But a pizza, even if it's quick, even if it
Speaker 2: only takes five minutes, I mean, that feels like an
Speaker 2: eternity for people who are used to an almost instant
Speaker 2: drive through service. You know. Plus the rest of their
Speaker 2: order is just sitting there getting cold as they're waiting
Speaker 2: on the pizza.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can see why that'd be a problem. Well,
Speaker 1: and the other issue was price.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like pizzas are expensive in the
Speaker 2: broader food market, but when customers are used to spending
Speaker 2: a buck or two parade and mmcdonald's, an eight ninety
Speaker 2: nine item feels expensive. The psychology of this, you know,
Speaker 2: the pricing of things. It's weird, but it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So how did it all play out?
Speaker 2: Well, by the early nineteen nineties, pizzas were being served
Speaker 2: in I think about a third of their locations, but
Speaker 2: it just wasn't working, and so they disappeared as quickly
Speaker 2: as they came.
Speaker 1: I mean you might say they were mick history. I've
Speaker 1: been practicing. Yeah, I think I need a little break
Speaker 1: after that joke. So why don't we get our pizza
Speaker 1: genius on the line.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, Mago, I know we've been talking about
Speaker 2: pizza wars, and later on in the episode it's going
Speaker 2: to get even a little bit darker. So I thought
Speaker 2: we should take a break and talk about some of
Speaker 2: the fun pizza stuff.
Speaker 1: We're both huge pizza.
Speaker 2: Fans, and there's obviously plenty of reasons to celebrate pizza.
Speaker 2: In fact, I think we'll do another episode in the
Speaker 2: not too distant future about all the fun facts about pizza.
Speaker 1: But today we've got.
Speaker 2: Scott Wiener on the program. Scott's an insane pizza connoisseur.
Speaker 2: He's the owner of Scott's Pizza Tours. He also consults
Speaker 2: on pizza park, writes a column for Pizza Today magazine,
Speaker 2: sounds qualified all the pizza references.
Speaker 1: He judges international.
Speaker 2: Pizza competition and holds the Guinness Book record for the
Speaker 2: largest collection of pizza boxes.
Speaker 1: So, Scott, welcome to part time Genius.
Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Hey, so so, one of the first things I heard
Speaker 1: about you was that you loved pizza so much you
Speaker 1: decided to turn that into a career. How do you
Speaker 1: go about making pizza your career? And were people skeptical
Speaker 1: when you told them that's what you were doing.
Speaker 4: You know, I had no idea what it was going
Speaker 4: to be like in the beginning. I just thought, Hey,
Speaker 4: wouldn't it be great if I could eat pizza for
Speaker 4: a living? You know, I don't know what is it,
Speaker 4: but I you know, I was like, well, I can't
Speaker 4: do a book. Nobody knows who the heck I am,
Speaker 4: and I don't know much, and I can't write a
Speaker 4: blog because actually at the time I had no internet
Speaker 4: where I lived. And I figured, well, what if we
Speaker 4: did something live action? And there's nothing better than live
Speaker 4: action doing a tour. So I figured, Oh, take people
Speaker 4: around the cool pizza rias, show them the ovens, shows
Speaker 4: them the kitchen, we'll eat pizza. I'll explain what's going
Speaker 4: on in the kitchen, and it'll be like a live
Speaker 4: action food TV show. And that was that.
Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome.
Speaker 2: I remember you telling us you kind of have a
Speaker 2: strict count of how many pizza slices you allow yourself
Speaker 2: every week because you're such a pizza fanatic, So what
Speaker 2: do you limit yourself to?
Speaker 4: So my limit is fifteen slices per week. It begins
Speaker 4: Monday mornings loo one am and Sunday night and you
Speaker 4: know what, it's really hard to keep to that low
Speaker 4: of a limit because I'm exposed to somewhere between four
Speaker 4: and ten pizzeri is every day, and so to you
Speaker 4: have to say to eight pizzeri is a day. No,
Speaker 4: I can't eat the slice right now. It's really tough.
Speaker 1: That's pretty incredible, and you never get sick of it.
Speaker 4: I haven't gotten sick of it yet, but I'm always
Speaker 4: nervous about it. And that's why I have this limit.
Speaker 4: It's just so I don't lose that edge. I want
Speaker 4: to stay interested in pizza. And I'm worried that what
Speaker 4: if I go overboard one week and you know when
Speaker 4: you're a kid and you ate too many jelly beans
Speaker 4: and then he's like candy jelly beans anymore. I don't
Speaker 4: want to live that life.
Speaker 1: That's pretty great. So I just moved to Atlanta, and
Speaker 1: it's not like New York where you can get slices
Speaker 1: on every block. And so I was wondering, how do
Speaker 1: you plan the perfect pizza crawl in a city you
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 4: So if I'm planning a pizza crawl in a city
Speaker 4: I haven't been to before, I always start by putting
Speaker 4: up a post on Twitter on Facebook, Hey, anybody have
Speaker 4: ideas for pizzerias? And then I sort of I call
Speaker 4: together a list based on the most suggestions I get.
Speaker 4: I cross reference that with recommendations people have given me
Speaker 4: on my pizza tours, which of course I keep a
Speaker 4: long spreadsheet about that, and you know, I kind of
Speaker 4: narrow it down to what days of the week are
Speaker 4: these pizzerias open, what times are they open? And I
Speaker 4: kind of carve out a little route that makes sense.
Speaker 4: And I mean, I just got back from a trip
Speaker 4: to Detroit last week where all I did for three
Speaker 4: days was hit the pizza scene. And I mean I
Speaker 4: hit a ton of pizza a short amount of time,
Speaker 4: and it couldn't without intensive preparation.
Speaker 1: And Detroit's like a hot scene for pizza right now.
Speaker 4: Right So, only in the past few years has it
Speaker 4: really become obvious to everyone outside of Detroit that they've
Speaker 4: got their own pizza thing going. You know, if you
Speaker 4: ask anybody ten years ago, where do you get pizza
Speaker 4: in America? They say, well, it's New York and it's Chicago.
Speaker 4: And the people who knew a little bit better would say, oh,
Speaker 4: and New Haven, Connecticut. But now we're starting to see
Speaker 4: that all these little regional variations are at least as significant.
Speaker 4: And I got to say, having just eaten myself, Detroit
Speaker 4: definitely has it going on.
Speaker 2: I know you've been a judge at the World Pizza Cup,
Speaker 2: which I have to be honest, isn't something I was
Speaker 2: that familiar with. So can you tell our listeners a
Speaker 2: little about the World Cup? And also how do you taste,
Speaker 2: test or judge a pizza?
Speaker 4: Wow, there are serious pizza competitions. I mean there's that
Speaker 4: Pizza World Cup is in Parma, Italy, and then there's
Speaker 4: one called the International Pizza Challenge, which is part of
Speaker 4: the International Pizza Expo in Las AGAs every year. And
Speaker 4: judging is tough because, as you can probably imagine, the
Speaker 4: more slices you eat, the more they start to taste
Speaker 4: the same. So you really have to you really have
Speaker 4: to stay sharp. Like I always bring some palate cleansers,
Speaker 4: like an apple, I bring some lemon rind. I always
Speaker 4: try to have some bubbly water on hand, coffee beans
Speaker 4: to you know, clear my nasal passages. You know, just
Speaker 4: to give a whiff and kind of reset by all
Speaker 4: fuctory senses and you know you stay at that and
Speaker 4: you can have you can sample twenty or thirty slices
Speaker 4: of one day and still be able to tell the difference.
Speaker 4: You know, when you're when you're given a slice of pizza,
Speaker 4: you have to be given the whole slice, so you
Speaker 4: can choose your own adventure with how you bite that.
Speaker 4: I do. I always do a bite of the tip
Speaker 4: and a bite of the lift, so I'm getting a
Speaker 4: bite of the center of the pie and I'm also
Speaker 4: getting some of the edge crust. And after those two bites,
Speaker 4: you know, if I need to go back for more
Speaker 4: information and more more reconnaissance, I can choose my own
Speaker 4: bite for where I go next. But bite of the
Speaker 4: tip and a bite of the lip is the best.
Speaker 1: Way to start. I love that. Start using that phrase
Speaker 1: a lot.
Speaker 2: See what people say, Well, let's talk about this pizza
Speaker 2: box collection you have.
Speaker 1: As we mentioned, you're the world record holder.
Speaker 2: So what's your obsession with pizza boxes and and what
Speaker 2: are some of the smartest design ones you have in
Speaker 2: your collection?
Speaker 4: Well, when I started doing these tours in two thousand
Speaker 4: and eight, I was so interested in learning as much
Speaker 4: as I could about every angle of the pizza world
Speaker 4: because it's subjective. You like a different pizza than I like,
Speaker 4: and neither of us is wrong or right, you know.
Speaker 4: So I figured, well, let me, let me dive into
Speaker 4: some of these things that that are that are more objective.
Speaker 4: Let's let's look at pizza box part. And I was
Speaker 4: fascinated by the fact that we have different generic box
Speaker 4: designs in different parts of the country and different parts
Speaker 4: of the world to draw their most mustachio demand a
Speaker 4: little differently than the others. So I just thought that
Speaker 4: that was it was really striking. And then I started
Speaker 4: getting more into the technology behind the box, and I found,
Speaker 4: you know, there's a great box in Italy that's lined
Speaker 4: with this reflective polyester fabric so that it keeps the
Speaker 4: pizza hotter on the inside of the box. It prevents
Speaker 4: the grease from soaking into the box itself, which would
Speaker 4: render it unrecyclable in some municipalities. So it's a cool box.
Speaker 4: And then there's one in India that is unbelievable. It's
Speaker 4: a breathable box. It has indirect ventilation that uses the
Speaker 4: fluting of a corrugated cardboard box set up to the
Speaker 4: advantage of getting rid of steam while maintaining heat and
Speaker 4: the inside of the box so cool.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, before we play a little quiz, I
Speaker 2: want to make sure our listeners know about Slice out Hunger.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about this?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Slice Out Hunger is a nonprofit that I started
Speaker 4: right when I started the pizza to our company, where
Speaker 4: we do fundraising for hunger relief organizations all around the country,
Speaker 4: and we do it through the pizza community. So we
Speaker 4: have an annual event that happens in New York where
Speaker 4: we have sixty pizzerias in one location, all serving slices
Speaker 4: for a buck a pop, and all the money that
Speaker 4: we raise gets matched by corporate sponsors and then donated
Speaker 4: to local hunger relief organizations. We also have these nationwide
Speaker 4: campaigns where your local pizzeria might have a little sign
Speaker 4: and then we know that says Slice out Hunger this
Speaker 4: month with our you know whatever it is our specialty
Speaker 4: pizza of the months, or we're working on a project
Speaker 4: coming up for National Pizza Day on February ninth, which
Speaker 4: we'll have a simultaneous delivery of pizza in every state
Speaker 4: in the United States to a local hunger relief organization,
Speaker 4: charity after school program Senior Center, Food Bank, food pantry.
Speaker 4: It's going to be crazy.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for doing all of that incredible work,
Speaker 2: and is our way of saying thanks.
Speaker 1: We thought we would give you a really horrible quiz.
Speaker 1: You don't mind, So what I'm prepared?
Speaker 3: All right?
Speaker 1: So what's our quiz called today?
Speaker 3: Mango?
Speaker 1: We're going to play a game called Our Cheesiest Quiz Ever.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we're going to give Scott four cheesy statements
Speaker 2: and he's going to tell us whether they're true or false.
Speaker 1: You ready, Scott?
Speaker 4: I guess I'm ready. I got no choice?
Speaker 1: All right? Well, question number one.
Speaker 2: When Pizza Hut introduced the Insider Pizza in two thousand,
Speaker 2: it became the world's largest user of cheese.
Speaker 1: Each pie required about one pound of cheese. Truer false,
Speaker 1: I'll say true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: At the time, Pizza Hut was using more than three
Speaker 1: hundred million pounds of cheese each year and purchasing three
Speaker 1: percent of all the cheese produced in the US. All right,
Speaker 1: one for one. Number two.
Speaker 2: Moose cheese costs about four hundred and twenty dollars per
Speaker 2: pound because milking of moose takes two hours and must
Speaker 2: be done in complete silence.
Speaker 1: Tru or false.
Speaker 4: I love this, but I'm gonna say it's false.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's actually true. Moo. Yeah, they're notoriously moody and
Speaker 1: they'll go dry if they're even slightly deserved.
Speaker 2: So I didn't think that was true either when I
Speaker 2: saw this quiz when Mango brought it in this morning,
Speaker 2: So that one stumped me as well.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: Question number three. Frankie Easy Cheese Jenkins was a New
Speaker 2: York City graffiti artist in the nineteen seventies before he
Speaker 2: patented and sold his idea for putting cheese in an
Speaker 2: aerosol can. True or false.
Speaker 4: Ooh, this is a tough one. I feel like I
Speaker 4: really want it to be true, and it could be,
Speaker 4: but I'm going to say. I'm going to say it's
Speaker 4: too good to be true. It's false.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. So. Originally known as Snackmate, the product
Speaker 1: was invented in nineteen sixty five in a Nibisco lab.
Speaker 1: All right, so Scott's two for three. This is for
Speaker 1: the big prize here. Number four.
Speaker 2: Wisconsin has started using provolone and mozzarella to d ice
Speaker 2: roads as a way to keep cost of rock salt down.
Speaker 1: True. Or faults.
Speaker 4: Oho, this is another one that feels like it's too
Speaker 4: good to be true. But all right, I'm gonna go
Speaker 4: with my heart on this one, and I'm gonna give
Speaker 4: you the answer that I want it to be, even
Speaker 4: though it might not be correct. I'm gonna say that
Speaker 4: that is true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely right. So the cheese Brian is a cheaper
Speaker 1: and greener way to keep traffic safe and it comes
Speaker 1: with the added perk of making town smell faintly like mazzarella. Wow. Oh,
Speaker 1: all right, so what Scott won today? Yeah, so Scott
Speaker 1: went impressive three or four And in addition to our
Speaker 1: total admiration, Scott's going to get a copy of The
Speaker 1: Jetsons the Great Pizza Hunt Book, which is the only
Speaker 1: book about the Jetsons and pizza with a five star
Speaker 1: rating on Goodreads.
Speaker 2: All right, well, Scott, thanks so much for joining us
Speaker 2: on Part Time Genius.
Speaker 5: Thanks for having me, guys, welcome back to Part Time Genius.
Speaker 2: Before the break, we talked about a couple of the
Speaker 2: pizza wars from the past few decades, first one with
Speaker 2: Chuck E Cheese and Showbiz, and then the trash talking
Speaker 2: one between McDonald's and Pizza hut. But now it's time
Speaker 2: to tackle a much more serious topic. We don't get
Speaker 2: all that serious very often here at Part Time Genius,
Speaker 2: but this is a fascinating case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, we wanted to talk about the Pizza
Speaker 1: Connection trial, right.
Speaker 2: Right, So let me just share a few of the
Speaker 2: basics and the numbers involved here. So this was March
Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty seven, and there were seventeen people found
Speaker 2: guilty of building a massive international drug ring. It was
Speaker 2: all orchestrated by the mafia, and it was managed through
Speaker 2: this network of neighborhood pizzerias all.
Speaker 1: Over the country.
Speaker 2: So it started with thirty five defendants, nineteen of them
Speaker 2: ended up standing trial, and the street value of the
Speaker 2: heroin they moved was worth an estimated one point sixty
Speaker 2: five billion dollars.
Speaker 1: Wow, which is no small operation.
Speaker 2: No, it definitely wasn't. And it gets more complex from there.
Speaker 2: This network was insane. There were two primary organized crime
Speaker 2: groups behind this. You have the Sicilian mafia and then
Speaker 2: you have the Banano crime family in New York. And
Speaker 2: the arrests were not just made in New York and Italy,
Speaker 2: but in Switzerland, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit.
Speaker 1: I mean It's crazy how wide this was. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so I'm guessing a case this complex isn't fast to
Speaker 1: prosecute and investigate, right, No, not at all.
Speaker 2: I mean, there was this series of raids of pizzerias
Speaker 2: and homes all over the country. This was one morning
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four, and this happened after four years
Speaker 2: of an FBI investigation. Then you have this seventeen month trial.
Speaker 2: Seventeen months, I mean, it's one of the longest trials
Speaker 2: in American history, and it was at the end of
Speaker 2: that that these seventeen people were found guilty.
Speaker 1: I was on grand jury for seven months once. I
Speaker 1: remember that forever. Seventeen months just feels impossible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine. But in this case, it's not
Speaker 2: just because it took forever. I mean, you know, think
Speaker 2: about the jurors. They were scared for their lives. It
Speaker 2: actually ended up being an eleven member jury because one
Speaker 2: of the was excused after getting these threatening phone calls.
Speaker 2: Even the judge admitted to being worried for his safety. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and of course they were the only ones who had
Speaker 2: to fear for their lives. I remember reading that one
Speaker 2: of the suspects was found dead in a garbage bag
Speaker 2: before the trial ended, and another defendant was shot a
Speaker 2: few times and ended up pleading guilty from his hospital bed.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And there are two really interesting articles in Vice, or
Speaker 2: rather there was one on the Vice website and it
Speaker 2: was called how Mafia pizzeria drug fronts inspired one of
Speaker 2: the most complex criminal trials ever, Yeah, exactly by a
Speaker 2: guy named John Serico, and another on their Munchie site
Speaker 2: called The Dark Side of Pie by Nick Rose. And
Speaker 2: I would recommend reading both of them.
Speaker 1: They were both very interesting. So it's just so wild
Speaker 1: that it was called the pizza connection and that it
Speaker 1: was largely managed through a huge network of pizzerias. So
Speaker 1: want to tell our listeners why, Well, you know.
Speaker 2: In the article I mentioned by Nick Rose, he interviews
Speaker 2: a few experts on this connection between organized crime and pizza.
Speaker 2: And one of the experts he spoke to was a
Speaker 2: guy named Antonio Nika, and he's written several books on
Speaker 2: organized crime and when he was asked why pizzerias, here's
Speaker 2: what he said. You can do this with any kind
Speaker 2: of restaurant, but at the time, it was just easier
Speaker 2: to buy a pizzeria and it was a great opportunity
Speaker 2: to make money and sell heroin out of the back door.
Speaker 2: He then goes on to say a pizzeria can.
Speaker 1: Be a good way to launder money. At the end
Speaker 1: of the day.
Speaker 2: You can produce fake receipts because it's mostly a cash business.
Speaker 2: If you have two hundred clients in a given day,
Speaker 2: a bookkeeper can punch the receipts so that it says
Speaker 2: five hundred customers. And the money that you don't make
Speaker 2: from selling pizza, you can put in the cash by
Speaker 2: selling heroin or drugs and pay taxes.
Speaker 1: Which is so crazy. And I guess another advantage of
Speaker 1: pizza places is their whole delivery network, right, Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: exactly right.
Speaker 2: And so they've got this distribution system that's already in place.
Speaker 2: You've got people out delivering pizzas all over the country,
Speaker 2: you know, so why not have them deliver heroin? I mean,
Speaker 2: I know why they shouldn't deliver heroines, So don't answer that.
Speaker 2: But that was their line of thinking. So eventually this
Speaker 2: pizza connection spanned all over the country. It even went
Speaker 2: up into Canada over time, and they built what was
Speaker 2: essentially a monopoly on heroin there.
Speaker 1: And as a side note, I noticed that the US
Speaker 1: attorney who was prosecuting the cases a name we'd eventually
Speaker 1: all know. That's right.
Speaker 2: It was none other than future in New York City
Speaker 2: mayor and presidential candidate Rudolph Giuliani.
Speaker 1: And he was known for being a tough prosecutor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. So this trial happens, and does it slow
Speaker 1: down the trafficking of heroin and the connection with Pizza,
Speaker 1: Well not really.
Speaker 2: I mean, just seven years later, famous original raised Pizza
Speaker 2: in the heart of Manhattan was busted for being this
Speaker 2: big organizing spot for another major drug ring. And these
Speaker 2: bus take an enormous amount of human power and time,
Speaker 2: and this one specifically, it took three years and more
Speaker 2: than two hundred agents involved in this thing. Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2: And then fast forward to twenty eleven, John Porcello, known
Speaker 2: as Johnny Pizza, was arrested in what the FBI reports
Speaker 2: as the biggest mob raid in its history.
Speaker 1: But I mean, if I remember correctly, the actual pizzerias
Speaker 1: weren't discovered to be a part of the racketeering.
Speaker 2: No, But I mean still, I mean, the guy was
Speaker 2: known as Johnny Pizza. There's some connection there. But by
Speaker 2: the way, I know there's not much funny about these cases,
Speaker 2: but when the La Times reported on this bust I
Speaker 2: did enjoy this line. It said many had nicknames that
Speaker 2: just read like a Hollywood script. Lumpy, Johnny, Pizza, the Bull, Baby,
Speaker 2: Fat Mush, Jello.
Speaker 1: And meat Ball among them. Lumpy and Mush. I know,
Speaker 1: I love those. Well, it's all really strange, and I'd say,
Speaker 1: while the show biz and McDonald's stories are pretty crazy,
Speaker 1: they aren't quite as heavy as all this pizza connection stuff.
Speaker 2: No agreed, but things are about to get heavier because
Speaker 2: you know what time it is?
Speaker 3: Yeah, backt off time, all right, I'll go first.
Speaker 2: So we were talking about the pizza wars in the
Speaker 2: first half of the show. Well, the founder of Domino's,
Speaker 2: Tom Monaghan, he may not have been in many all
Speaker 2: out wars, but he wasn't a to rough up some
Speaker 2: of his earliest customers if they tried to skip out
Speaker 2: on paying. As he said in his autobiography quote, if
Speaker 2: someone refused to pay a driver for an order, I
Speaker 2: didn't call the police. I just went and demanded the money. Usually,
Speaker 2: the culprits were a bunch of college guys who decided
Speaker 2: to have a party at my expense, and I didn't
Speaker 2: hesitate to swing a punch to persuade them to pay up.
Speaker 1: That's crazy. So here's a quick one. Ever wondered where
Speaker 1: tombstone pizza got its name. It's because it was first
Speaker 1: made in a bar that was across the street from
Speaker 1: the cemetery.
Speaker 2: You know, I actually have wondered that, but I've never
Speaker 2: looked at up. So that's interesting to know. All right, Well,
Speaker 2: I'm not done. Quoting Domino's founder Tom Onahan, he also said,
Speaker 2: from time to time, we'd have a rash of pizza
Speaker 2: thefts from parked vehicles while drivers were busy with customers.
Speaker 1: I'd hide in the.
Speaker 2: Back of the car, and the next time it went
Speaker 2: to that neighborhood, I'd wait for them to try it again.
Speaker 2: I'd carry a meat tenderizing mallet or a pop bottle
Speaker 2: as a persuader, and that approach, Yeah, always solved the problem.
Speaker 1: It's just the problem. That's as simple, is that, Okay.
Speaker 1: So on a slightly lesson sane note, In the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: Chuck E. Cheese decided to expand to Australia, but instead
Speaker 1: decided to be called Charlie Cheese's Pizza playhouse. And that's
Speaker 1: because the word chuck is even more strongly associated with
Speaker 1: throwing up there than it is here.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, actually I think I might try to
Speaker 2: get that term Charlie cheese to catch on for throwing
Speaker 2: somebody Charlie cheese everywhere.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right?
Speaker 2: So did you know back in the nineteen sixties there
Speaker 2: was a US Army intelligence unit that would use fake
Speaker 2: pizza deliveries to spy on people, namely reporters and politicians.
Speaker 1: That's weird. So want to know who holds the Guinness
Speaker 1: World Record for the most expensive pizza commercially available. It's
Speaker 1: in my old home of New York City at Industry Kitchen.
Speaker 1: The pizza, which takes two days to make, includes black
Speaker 1: squid incto, stilton cheese from the UK, French truffles, two
Speaker 1: types of caviar foi gras, and of course a twenty
Speaker 1: four carrot gold leaf. Wow, it goes for two thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: All right, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Of all the things we've talked about today, that is
Speaker 2: the most offensive by far. So that shouldn't be classified
Speaker 2: as a pizza at that price. Actually, maga, have you
Speaker 2: got me so riled up, I'm gonna have to give
Speaker 2: you the fact off trophy today.
Speaker 1: Well, while while will storms off, I'd like to thank
Speaker 1: you for listening today, and if you want to share
Speaker 1: any favorite pizza facts, hit us up at part Time
Speaker 1: Genius at HowStuffWorks dot com, where find us on Facebook
Speaker 1: or Twitter, or call our twenty four to seven fact hotline.
Speaker 1: It's one eight four four pt Genius. We'll see you
Speaker 1: next time.
Speaker 2: Thanks again for listening. Part Time Genius is a production
Speaker 2: of How Stuff Works and wouldn't be possible without several
Speaker 2: brilliant people who do the important things we couldn't even
Speaker 2: begin to understand.
Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the
Speaker 1: theme song and does the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry
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Speaker 2: Gabe Bluesier is our lead researcher, with support from the
Speaker 2: research army including off Then Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas
Speaker 2: Adams and Eves.
Speaker 1: Jeffcok gets the show to your ears. Good job, Eves.
Speaker 2: If you like what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe,
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Speaker 1: Good review for us. Do we forget Jason? Jason who