1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: While important and I'm proud of that work, it was 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: unsatisfying because I wanted to do something with a greater impact. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: And that coincided with some changes in my life that 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: involved my childhood friend who had been wrongfully convicted of 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: double murder, where I basically rededicated my life to helping 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: him get free, and that took me into this completely 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: different space and different world. I started visiting him and 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: I made a number of visits to him in prison, 9 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: and during one of those visits, I was just so 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: overwhelmed by just the injustice, the fact that he was 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: going back to a cage while I was going back 12 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: to freedom. 13 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: In my life. 14 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: And I said, you know, I'm going to do everything 15 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: I can to help get you out of prison, whatever 16 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: it takes. I'm even going to go to law school. 17 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: But I was devoting so much of my life to 18 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: helping Marty that I was like, I just have to 19 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: do more. 20 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 3: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Ill Courtney. 21 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 3: I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, i'm a father, 22 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 3: I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm a football coach in inner 23 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 3: city Memphis. And that last part unintentionally led to an 24 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 3: Oscar for the film about one of my teams. 25 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: It's called Undefeated. 26 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 3: I believe our country's problems are never going to be 27 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 3: solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits 28 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 3: using big words on CNN and Fox that nobody really 29 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 3: ever uses, but rather by an army of normal folks. 30 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: Guys. 31 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 3: That's us, just you and me, deciding hey, I can help. 32 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 3: That's what Mark Howard, the voice you just heard, has done. 33 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 3: Mark couldn't go back to his normal life after helping 34 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 3: Marty get his life back, so he got a new life, 35 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 3: starting programs that have exonerated thirteen innocent people, educating two 36 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty guilty people in prisons, and supporting one 37 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty people re entering our society and challenging 38 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: us all to rethink what justice really does mean and 39 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 3: to think about what's unique about our own story that 40 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 3: can bring special light to where there's profound darkness. I 41 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 3: genuinely cannot wait for you to meet Mark right after 42 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 3: these brief messages from our general sponsors. Mark Howard from Washington, 43 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: d C. The founding director of the Prisons and Justice 44 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: Initiative at Georgetown University and the founder of the Frederick 45 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 3: Douglas Project of Justice. 46 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: My god, that's a lot of words. Thanks for being here. 47 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: Great to be Hereville. 48 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 3: Just flew in this morning from Didch flood for I 49 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 3: know you like live in airplanes, right. 50 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, just got in straight into the studio. 51 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: Flat out tonight. Find out tonight where you had it. 52 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: Back to DC tonight and then to La Friday, to 53 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: Nevada Monday, to Houston next Wednesday. 54 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: Well, we're lucky everywhere. 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: Lucky you've been able to fit you in and bring 56 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 3: you to Memphis. I appreciate the time everybody. I precursor 57 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 3: to this, I'm stoked about this conversation. It's something that 58 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 3: I've always had an interest in that I haven't fully 59 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 3: formed all of my personal feelings and thoughts about. And 60 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 3: I think as this interview goes on, many of our 61 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 3: listeners may find themselves in the same place. And I 62 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 3: think Mark here to discuss the work he's done is 63 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 3: really important and inspirational, but also on this one, really 64 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: informative and maybe help each of us in our lay terms, 65 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 3: grasp a little better how we as Americans feel about 66 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: criminal justice, criminal justice reform, crime, recidivism, and all of 67 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 3: those things. So Mark, I can't wait to talk to 68 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 3: you about with this stuff. So you're a political science 69 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 3: for Russ got right, and that all changed? 70 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: Tell us about that. 71 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so it's a long story and I'll 72 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: give a short version of it, but we got time. 73 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: My initial training after getting an undergraduate degree was and 74 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: after spending a year in Berlin studying political science, then 75 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: I went on and got a PhD at UC Berkeley 76 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 1: in political science. 77 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 3: You're clearly a dump. Well you know, a lot of 78 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 3: gray matter going on up there. 79 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure how useful all of it is, 80 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: but now I've definitely found my passion. But so initially 81 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 1: I went on the academic job market a few different 82 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: positions and landed at Georgetown University, where I've been teaching 83 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: now for over twenty years. And that was initially in 84 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: the Government Department, which is political science as a field, 85 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: and that's what I taught and did research in and 86 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: got promoted and got tenured, became a full professor of 87 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: the highest sort of rank you can get as a 88 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 1: professor as an academic. But I also had this story 89 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: that I'm sure we'll get into in depth. That was 90 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: a personal connection that brought me into the criminal justice 91 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: system now made me realize how much injustice there is 92 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: and led me to completely change my life in the 93 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: sense of not leaving necessarily my old position, but changing 94 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: everything that I do in the direction. 95 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 2: Of criminal justice reform. 96 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: My PhD was in basically European comparative politics. I focused 97 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: on countries and comparative politics. 98 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 3: That's neat. Yeah, so this is just curious. I mean, 99 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 3: does that mean? What it sounds like is that you're 100 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 3: you're looking at different forms of government in Europe, comparing 101 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 3: the way Turkey or Greece operates government versus White frances 102 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 3: Is that, yeah? 103 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: I mean that was some of my teaching was broadly 104 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: about all different sets of countries, even around the world, 105 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: but especially focusing on Europe. But then I did my 106 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: own research and writing and wrote to books that deal 107 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: with different specific issues within Europe. So one was on 108 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: civil society and democratization in post communist countries and the 109 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: transition of democracy in the nineteen nineties. Another one in 110 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: the two thousands was focusing on citizenship and immigration in 111 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: Western Europe, how different countries into great immigrants. But it 112 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: was very academic in focus, and while those books they 113 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: did well and each of them wanted several awards in 114 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: terms of little political science you recognition. They were very specialized, 115 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: and to me that while important and I'm proud of 116 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: that work, it was unsatisfying because I wanted to do 117 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: something with a greater impact that more people would pay 118 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: attention to. And that coincided with some changes in my 119 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: life that involved my childhood friend who had been wrongfully 120 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: convicted of double murder, where I basically rededicated my life 121 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: to helping him get free, and that took me into 122 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: this completely different space and different world. 123 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 2: I'm going for a memory here, that's Marty. 124 00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: Marty Tankliffe. 125 00:06:59,160 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 2: Okay. 126 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 3: It is first of all that background I actually think 127 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 3: has tentacles into what you do now, because I think 128 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 3: what you do now you have to understand government. You 129 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: have to understand assimilation. Even if it's assimilation can be 130 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 3: a very broad word, but I think assimilation is assimilation. 131 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 3: So I think all of that is important. I think 132 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 3: it's interesting that you've spent a PhD in all this 133 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 3: time studying and writing about European society, because I think 134 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: European society gives us a good reflector as it pertains 135 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: the work that you do now in our American society. 136 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 3: So I think all of that makes sense. Yeah, but 137 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 3: I don't think any of it really starts. The passion 138 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 3: can't really start without your personal connection to Marty, and 139 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 3: I don't think we can go forward in this interview 140 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: without everybody understanding that story. 141 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: That's exactly right to me. The story of Marty Tanklip 142 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: is central to everything I do. It certainly is the 143 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: hook in terms of the transformation that I went through professionally, 144 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: and still is very central to what I do organizationally, 145 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: the activities that I'm involved in, the cases that I 146 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: work on. Marty and I work together side by side, 147 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: very closely still to the current day. So let me 148 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: give that story if you're ready for it. I am, 149 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: so I should give the backstory. Marty and I were 150 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: born nine days apart in the same location on Long Island, 151 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: New York. We went to the same preschool school called 152 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: Lovey Dovey Preschool Lovey. 153 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 3: Duvey can't make name that good grief, go ahead, and. 154 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: Then we went on to elementary school, middle school, high 155 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: school again in Port Jefferson, New York, on the north 156 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: shore of Long Island in Suffolk County, and then on 157 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: the first day of our senior year of high school. 158 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: We just turned seventeen, so we're both late August birthdays, 159 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: nine days apart. Marty woke up on that day and 160 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: imagine just the excitement of going to school as a 161 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: senior the first day. I mean, you've been through it 162 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 1: yourself with your kids. I mean, it's such a big day. Well, 163 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: Marty woke up to a brutal crime scene in his 164 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: own house, found his parents' bodies murdered, slaughtered, you could say, 165 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: viciously murdered, and his mother stabbed over fifty times, almost decapitated. 166 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: His father still clinging to life, but never came out 167 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: of a coma and died a few days later. And 168 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: as if that wasn't the worst thing that could happen 169 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: to a seventeen year old kid, to be orphaned and 170 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: to find that crime scene. That night, he was in handcuffs, 171 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: charged with killing his parents, and the next summer he 172 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: was convicted and sentenced to fifty years to life for 173 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: the murder of his parents. Now I was his friend, 174 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: and I actually went to the scene that day because 175 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: I had driver's ed and the driver's ed teacher took 176 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: us out in a car for the first day, and 177 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: we'd heard something happen, and we drove by the house 178 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: and saw police tape everywhere as a completely crazy scene. 179 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: But then I also was investigating it as the editor 180 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: of our high school newspaper called the Purple Parrot. So 181 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: there's another name for you, Lovey Dovey and the Purple Parrot. 182 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 3: Good grief, And they both seem like they belong in 183 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: Key West. 184 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: But go ahead. 185 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: Well, I'm proud of what we did in the Purple 186 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: Parrot because well, Marty's case got so much coverage from 187 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: every New York newspaper media outlet. Only The Purple Parrot 188 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: got the story right, which is that Marty was innocent. 189 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: And I found a lot of evidence that showed that 190 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: his father's business partner had all these shady dealings and 191 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: owedis father money. And then he later staged his own 192 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: death and disappearance and was found weeks later in California, 193 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: having changed his appearance. It was never considered a suspect. 194 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: They focused on Marty. They fixated on Marty. Can you 195 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: tell me railroad in Marty? Why they fixated on Marty? Well, 196 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: there's strong likelihood that there was a head of homicide 197 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: was paid by the business partner to frame Marty. 198 00:10:58,360 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 199 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: And at the time it was a very corrupt police 200 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: department still is from everything I hear. The most recent 201 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: sheriff actually ended up getting sentenced to prison and the DA. 202 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 2: That would indicate corruption. Yeah. 203 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. They had a at times a mid ninety percent 204 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: confession rate and murders, which is to say they basically 205 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: beat or psychologically tortured confessions out of people, which is 206 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: what happened in Marty's case. Although his confession wasn't an 207 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: actual confession, it was a hypothetical. They convinced them as 208 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: remember a seventeen year old kid that you know just 209 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: witnessed this trauma. They convinced them that he had done 210 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: it and blacked out in his memory of it. So 211 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: they lied and manipulated him to say for him. No, 212 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: Attorney President wasn't mirandized. I mean, it's it's a constitutional 213 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: violation day in and day at. Well, this is what 214 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: we'll get into this is, you know, the American criminal 215 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: legal system has these beautiful ideals as they're written down, 216 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: but not as they're carried out in practice. And Marty 217 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: was a textbook example of that injustice, and he ended 218 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: up being railroaded, sentenced to fifty years to life, and 219 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: so our lives went in completely different directions, and Marty 220 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: likes to say Mark went to Yale, I went to jail, 221 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: very different, you know, life courses at that point. 222 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 3: And now a few messages from our general sponsors. But 223 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 3: first you guys got to hear this. Okay, this is 224 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 3: real opportunity. Our six local service clubs are now badly 225 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 3: one another through April eighth to see which of them 226 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 3: can recruit the most members to their giving circle of 227 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 3: just ten dollars a month and up. And the winner 228 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 3: of this thing is going to get a twenty five 229 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 3: thousand dollars grant from Stand Together. If you live in Memphis, Oxford, Atlanta, wichitaal, 230 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 3: Northern Duchess County, or Ozaki County, join your giving circle 231 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 3: today by visiting normalfolks dot us backslash Service clubs normal 232 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 3: folks dot Us backslash Service Clubs and just click. 233 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: On your club. 234 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: And again, guys, the club that raised the most money 235 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 3: and gets most people and the most of the giving circle, 236 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 3: Stand Together is going to grant that club twenty five 237 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 3: k to go do something good in your community. I 238 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: can't imagine why you guys wouldn't do that. It's free stuff. 239 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. 240 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 2: What's Marty a good student, good kid? He problems in it's. 241 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: Past, no, no problems whatsoever, no criminal record, not even 242 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: anything close. I mean, Marty was a kid who had, 243 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: you know, absolutely no trouble at all. And so this 244 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: was why it was so shocking and why the whole 245 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: process that unfolded I think just made no sense to 246 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: anybody who knew him. Now, I should say, and you 247 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: may know, and a lot of listeners will know about 248 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: the Menendez brothers who actually did kill their parents, and 249 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: it was around the same time, and Marty I think 250 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: got swept up into that. 251 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: Hole sentiment that really was about those same time period 252 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: when that happened. 253 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: Their crime happened after his, but his trial was taking 254 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: place in the middle of all the evidence making it 255 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: clear that they had killed their parents. So he kind 256 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: of gets swept in with that, which is like, oh, 257 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: rich spoiled kid kills parents for money. 258 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: That was the narrative. 259 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: There's absolutely no evidence to back that up. The wealth 260 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: wasn't nearly on the scale of the Menendez family, by 261 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: the way, but it became something that people believe because 262 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: the prosecution chose that narrative, picked their suspect, honed in 263 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: on him, and then sunk their teeth into him, and 264 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't release him no matter what countervailing evidence. 265 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: Came to light. How long did he spend in jail? 266 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: He spent almost eighteen years, six three hundred and thirty 267 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: eight days, eight. 268 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 2: Fifteen years of his life. Stone. 269 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm. 270 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: Sorry, keep going. 271 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, So our lives went in different directions. You know, 272 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: this was pre internet. This was hard to stay in 273 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: touch with somebody, especially in prison. And so I moved 274 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: on with my life. And there's a part of me that's, 275 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: you know, sad or even a little ashamed, like I 276 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: wish I'd done more at the time. But you know, 277 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: I was also a set eighteen year old kid, and 278 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: I went to college and you know, started my own 279 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: life in a way as a young adult. But I 280 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: would always tell people I have a friend in prison 281 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: who's innocent, and at first they would say, you know, 282 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: come on, that can't happen. I mean, if you go 283 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: back in time and think to our childhood that we 284 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: were taught, this is the greatest criminal justice system in 285 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: the world. There's innocent until proven guilty. There's a jury 286 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: of your peers. There's twelve people, there's guilty on a reasonableness. 287 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: If it's in the newspaper, it's true. 288 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: Right, exactly what authority figures say is true. Even trusting 289 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: the police in many communities is something that we were 290 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: taught to believe in. Well, all of that has come undone. 291 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: Since then, there's been the Innocence Project and other organizations 292 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: in Marty and I have also created one called Making 293 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: an Xannaie where we have found and it's become clear 294 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: that there's a lot of misconduct. There's a lot of 295 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: mistakes or abuse of power that takes place. I learned 296 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: it through Marty's case, through the case just of me 297 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: as a person, as a kid really saying I think 298 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: my friend just got railroaded and there's been a tremendous injustice. 299 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: What can I do about it? Well, initially it was 300 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: in The Purple Parrot, and I did what I could, 301 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, you know, people didn't listen to The Purple Parrot. 302 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: They listened to News Day and the New York Times 303 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: and Court TV and whatnot that had this prosecuted or 304 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: driven narrative that he was guilty. Over time, you know, 305 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: we lost touch, but he still stayed in the present 306 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: of my mind. I would talk about him. I would 307 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: tell people the story. I would somehow like take over 308 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 1: like a dinner party or a gathering if people really 309 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: wanted to know, like what about this? And then the 310 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: business partner, and you know, I could lay out the 311 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: whole story. But then something in me called out to 312 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: me to reach out to him, and so we started 313 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: writing letters, and I have several shoe boxes of letters 314 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: back and forth. 315 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 2: In prison. 316 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: We started talking on the phone. I started visiting him, 317 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: and I made a number of visits to him in prison, 318 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: and during one of those visits, I was just so 319 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: overwhelmed by just the injustice, the fact that he was 320 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: going back to a cage while I was going back 321 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: to freedom in my life. And I said, you know, 322 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to do everything I can to help get 323 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: you out of prison, whatever it takes. I'm even going 324 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: to go to law school. 325 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 2: Now. 326 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: I was already a Georgetown professor at that point, but 327 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: I was devoting so much of my life to help 328 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: helping Marty that I was like, I just have to 329 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: do more. And it turns out that at Georgetown, you 330 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: can actually get a law degree for free as a professor. 331 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: No one had ever done it before. No one's stupid 332 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: enough to you know. 333 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 3: What, a free law degree from Georgetown sounds like a 334 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: pretty nice poe. 335 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 336 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 337 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: So I made the plan that I was going to 338 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: go to law school with the goal of getting my 339 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: childhood friend out of prison. Just before I started, he 340 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: was exonerated, and I played a role in that I'd 341 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: written a brief on behalf of our high school classmates. 342 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: It was actually cited in the appellate court's ruling that 343 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: freed him. I played a role. You know, there are 344 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: a lot of other people. There's a private investigator, they 345 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: are lawyers. It's a big team effort. It takes a 346 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: village to help get someone exonerated. So Marty walked out, 347 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: and I was there, actually had I had arrived in 348 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: France five days earlier and found out who was getting out. 349 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: I flew right back to be there and walk you know, 350 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: him out of prison. And a lot of people who 351 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: knew my story and knew how obsessed I was with 352 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: helping Marty get free, said, okay, Mark, now you can 353 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: get back to your old life. You can be done 354 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: with this mission. It's a mission accomplished. But the way 355 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: I think of it is that my eyes through Marty's case, 356 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: my eyes were opened to injustice and I just couldn't 357 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: close them again. I couldn't be like, oh, Marty's out, now, 358 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: everything's fine, because through his case I learned about so 359 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: much injustice, corruption, incompetence, abusive power, misconduct, and it just 360 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: made me want to go deeper. So I went ahead 361 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: and went to law school while being a full time professor, 362 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: was a full time law student. 363 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: That's a whole other crazy story. 364 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 3: As I hear Marty's story, there's a couple questions that 365 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 3: I don't have answered that I'm just dying to know 366 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 3: that if I'm listening to this story right now, are listeners. One, 367 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 3: how did he get exonerated? What evidence that you know? 368 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 3: How did that work? And I think that's really important 369 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 3: deeper into the story to understand kind of systematically how 370 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 3: that can work. But with regard to Marty, how to 371 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 3: work on a human level. I am really interested in 372 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 3: how Marty, knowing he was innocent, and having to live 373 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 3: for a decade and a half surrounded by many people 374 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 3: who weren't in a atmosphere that can be very dangerous itself. 375 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 3: How he did just give up, how and how angry 376 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: he must have felt, and then the last part. And 377 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 3: you can answer these in anywhere you want to. 378 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 2: Did the did the jack legs that put them there? Hey? 379 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 2: For what they did? 380 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: Well, let me go maybe in chronological orders however you 381 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: want to do. There's are great questions. First off, so 382 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: in terms of how he survived in prison, basically, you know, 383 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: he went in as as a kid. That's one pounds 384 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: from the white kid from Long Island. Yeah, that's up 385 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: state New York. Fact looks like the rest. He h. 386 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: He got good advice as he started from kind of 387 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: an older mentor, you could say, in prison, who said 388 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: two things. One, put some muscle on your body, work out, 389 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: get you know, you got to be able to protect 390 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: yourself and stand up for yourself. Two, more importantly, if 391 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: you really are innocent, get your to the law library. 392 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: And so Marty ended up going to law library every 393 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: single day and he worked there as a clerk. He 394 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: was paid, I believe it was about seven dollars and 395 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: fifty cents a week for forty hours of work in 396 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: the law library. That's what prison wages are and I 397 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 1: hope we'll get into some of that about the abuse 398 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: of that takes place in prisons. But people work and 399 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: they get paid about ten to twenty cents an hour. 400 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 1: So Marty worked in the law library, worked on his case, 401 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: but he also helped other people. So if you think 402 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: about it, you got people coming in looking for help 403 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: on their cases. They might be bloods, crips, you know, 404 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: Hispanic gangs, Area Nation whatever. There's like fifty gangs and 405 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: there can be a lot of you know, violence and 406 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: danger in there. Marty became untouchable because he was helping everybody. 407 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: So in a way he was protected by the legal 408 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: skills that he had and that he was developing and 409 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: working on. 410 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 3: So he got out of the politics. For everybody listening, 411 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 3: when you hear prison politics, politics is a prison term 412 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 3: for referring. 413 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: To the races exactly. 414 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 3: So the politics of a prison are the whites with 415 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: the whites, the blocks with the blocks, the spanks with 416 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 3: the Hispanics, and many times inside each of those races, 417 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 3: the gangs within those races. But in prison terms, that's 418 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 3: called politics. 419 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, politics is a code word for race. Effectively, 420 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: he stayed out of it because he was a squal 421 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: opportunity jail lawyer. It absolutely does start now. He also 422 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: was for most of his seventeen and a half years 423 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: in something called Honor Block because his case was high 424 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: profile and because he had no disciplinary record in prison, 425 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: he was able to be in a place that was 426 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: less violent, and so Honor Block as it's called the 427 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 1: New York prisons, and there's different names for in other prisons, 428 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: but it's like an incentive pod or it's something that 429 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: you can earn through your good behavior but also perhaps 430 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: through your name recognition in order to sort of avoid 431 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: being a target. 432 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 2: But he's still in jail for not having done anything. 433 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 2: So how he did. 434 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: In fact, he was in the same unit, on the 435 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: same tier as Tupac Shakur the Rapper for a little 436 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: bit while he was cheapak was in the New Yorkers 437 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: and so they played I think they played handball or 438 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: basketball or something together like actually crazy. But so Marty 439 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: worked in the law library, helped other people, kept him safe. 440 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: He also lifted some weights, put some muscle on, so 441 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: he was safe. He was okay. Prison was not the 442 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: dangerous horror show that it often is for people. For him, 443 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: But what he also did, and this is what's incredible 444 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: and gets into the question about like optimism versus bitterness 445 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: and whatnot, is that he worked twenty four to seven 446 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: on his case. He was his leading, his own leading advocate. 447 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: He wrote fifty thousand letters from prison over seventeen and 448 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: a half years, and I've calculated that comes to nine 449 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: letters a day, including Sundays. He wrote to everyone he 450 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: could think of who might in any way be able 451 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: to help or connect him in any way. He wrote 452 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: to media personalities, He wrote to retired judges, He wrote 453 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: to experts in different areas of criminal law. Many of 454 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: them probably never opened his letters, most of them never responded, 455 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 1: but he was able to build up a group of supporters. 456 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: He was able to bring on lawyers and law firms 457 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: pro bono. He had this unbelievable array of top notch 458 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: lawyers pro bono, including the firm Baker Bots that had 459 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: a whole office that was just the Marty war room. 460 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: Basically that was just you know, it should have been 461 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: for an associate. Space is valuable in these law firms, 462 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: but it was literally just for his case and full 463 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: of files and boxes and people would be going in 464 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: there and checking stuff out like it was a library 465 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: in the law firm. Baker Bots probably spent over two 466 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: million just and that's back in, you know, a few 467 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: decades ago, big money on his case. So he was 468 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: his own leading advocate. He got people, He made people 469 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: want to help him, and that included me. You know, 470 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: when I first reached out to him, I didn't know 471 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: who I was going to see. At that point, it 472 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: had been a lot of you know, a lot of 473 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: time he'd been in prison, Like I didn't really know. 474 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: He was amazing. He was someone who was so positive 475 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: and optimistic. He stayed in touch with society. He used 476 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: to get the New York Times delivered by mail and 477 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: it would come a day late, and he was following 478 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: you know, politics, the world. I'm cooking. He loves cooking. 479 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: He would be like looking up recipes. He would cut 480 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: out recipes from the from the newspaper and send it 481 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: to people. He would like read restaurant reviews and be like, oh, 482 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: you should check out this new restaurant I heard. It's 483 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: really good. You know what I mean. He stayed connected, 484 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: And the way he puts it is that I never 485 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: lived in prison. I just resided there and his life. 486 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: He was always preparing for one day being free. He 487 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: always said, it's a matter of time. I know, one 488 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: day the truth is going to come out. And so 489 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: you didn't know it was going to take eighteen years. 490 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: And there was a close call like five years in 491 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: where he almost got out and he should have gotten out, 492 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: and then it's a show that happened and he didn't. 493 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: But he really found this resourcefulness in him and this 494 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: positivity to the point where you know what finally led 495 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: him And I'll explain how he got out. But that 496 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: was the nineteenth appeal. There'd been eighteen previous that have 497 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: been shot down. Each and every time. His team of 498 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: supporters was gut it devastated, you know, like they had 499 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: hopes they have the truth on their side. Boom, shot 500 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: down by this system that just is hell bent on 501 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: reaffirming convictions that values finality more than the truth. Well, 502 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: Marty would always say, you know it's okay, don't worry, 503 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, like, oh, we can appeal this, or there's 504 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: another angle and there's another expert that we can bring in, 505 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: and you know, we can you know, bring up this 506 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: new issue. And he was like the best cheerleader for 507 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: his supporters who were all free in the free world, 508 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: but they'd be down, including me and Marty would get 509 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: us back up again. Think about it, He's sitting in 510 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: a freaking cage. 511 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: What an example of courage. 512 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean it's a courage and leadership from the 513 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: worst position possible, but to find an optimism, to find 514 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: a way to get people to rally, to come back, 515 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: to try again, to keep fighting, to keep the you know, 516 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: long term perspective in mind and not lose track of 517 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: the ultimate goal. It's like, you know, you're a former 518 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: football coach. I mean, imagine just losing every single quarter 519 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: and you're playing a twenty quarter game and you're saying 520 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: it's okay every quarter and like finally, you know, in 521 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: the nineteenth quarter, you win the game. That level of 522 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: optimism is really extraordinary. 523 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 3: It is, especially under those circumstances. It's hard to have 524 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 3: that level optimism just being a guy out here. Run 525 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 3: around hard enough, Yeah, we'll be right back. I'm dying 526 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 3: to understand what freed him. 527 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: Well, So there was a hearing. The eighteenth Appeal was 528 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: a major hearing in Suffolk County on Long Island, in 529 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: front of a local hack. The judge and during that 530 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: hearing there are twenty plus different witnesses who came forward 531 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: who most of them didn't even know each other, were unconnected, 532 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: but had a version of the same story and the 533 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: same people involved. So when you think about what actually happened, 534 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: is the father's business partner named Jerry Stewarman who's still 535 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: free today. So I'm foreshadowing still a problem. 536 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: That was my question. Did he get locked up? That 537 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: was coming now? Unbelievable go ahead. 538 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: So there was a poker game at Marty's house. It 539 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: took place like every other week and it rotated different houses, 540 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: and it happened to be at his house that night. 541 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: Marty had actually set the table for everyone before the 542 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: guests came, and this business part of Jerry Stewart was 543 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: the last person to leave. He actually moved his car 544 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: out of the driveway so someone else could leave and 545 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: then he pulled back in. Was there at three in 546 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: the morning. There were two hitmen and a driver. The 547 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: hitmen were waiting in the bushes their cigarette butts outside 548 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: the a movie. Oh yeah, it'll be a real man. Yeah, 549 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: connected guys, and they came in yeah, I mean local. 550 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: I don't even know if they were just like one 551 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: of the guys. His nickname, his name was Joe Creedan. 552 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: He's dead now. His nickname was Joey Guns for you 553 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: know when you when you walk around with that nickname, Yo, 554 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: I'm Joey Gunns. Yeah, that kind of tells you who 555 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: you are. And uh, he and this other guy, Peter Kent, 556 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: were waiting uh for hand signal from the business partner. 557 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: They came in, they committed the murders. There's been a 558 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: lot of testimony, including Joey Guns his own son who 559 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: says his dad told him in detail how he did it, 560 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: and that he wore gloves and it matches the crime scene, 561 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: and that he walked up a half flight of stairs, 562 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: which also matches the crime scene. It was a split 563 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: level house. There's so much it became one hundred percent 564 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: clear what happened. And then the guy who was the 565 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: driver who testified, who initially actually confessed to a priest 566 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: in prison where he was locked up on other stuff. 567 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: Because when you're committing this kind of crime, you go 568 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: in and out of prison committing other he got caught sometimes. 569 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: So all these witnesses came forward with a version of 570 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: the story that implicated these other people, the driver and 571 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: the hitman, and it was clear as day that this 572 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: was the truth. And somehow this judge ruled against Marty. 573 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: And not only that, and by the way, there had 574 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: been a nun and a priest who testified. And the 575 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: judge in his ruling against Marty, this is the eighteenth 576 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: appeal that lost. Not only did he deny Marty, but 577 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: he used this colorful language. He said, you brought before 578 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: this court a cavalcade of nefarious scoundrels. 579 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: Priest. Yeah, oh my god. 580 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: And so. 581 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: Judge was being paid off. 582 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: Well, I think the whole county is so deeply corrupt 583 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: they have a vested interest in just covering up all 584 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: of the misconduct. Ninety percent of judges nationally are former prosecutors, 585 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: so there's a vested interest in preserving convictions because the 586 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: convictions come from the prosecutor's office. That's what they fight for. 587 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: They win, and when new evidence comes. 588 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 2: To light, they don't want to feel like a wink 589 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: and a nod fraternity. 590 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 591 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, fortunately that denial and it was so egregious with 592 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: the priest and nun stuff and some of the other people. 593 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: I mean sure some of the people had been in 594 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: criminal activity. That's how they knew about it. That's how 595 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: they knew these other guys who committed the murder. But 596 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: some of them, you know, had found religion, had turned 597 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: their lives around, and they were like, I got to 598 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: clear my conscience, like this guy told me he did, 599 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: or one of them said they wanted me to commit 600 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: the crime, but I wasn't free that night, I would 601 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:42,959 Speaker 1: have done it. So it's crazy. Yeah, But so on 602 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 1: the nineteenth appeal, that denial got appealed to the New 603 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: York Appellate Division, which was getting out of the cesspool 604 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: of Suffolk County, where four judges heard the appeal. Funny 605 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: side story, James Gandolfini, who played Tony Soprano this was 606 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: at the height of the Sopranos, supported Marty and walked 607 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: into that courtroom like fifteen minutes late and walked up 608 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: to the front seat and everyone was like, Holy, Tony 609 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: Soprantoor just came in. He supports Marty. 610 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 2: That's very believable. 611 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: It chose Actually, I think the importance of some celebrity 612 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: support because this is the world we live in where 613 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: people recognize somebody and they pay extra attention to it. Anyway, 614 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: that court ruled for nothing unanimously to overturn Marty's conviction. 615 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: He was freed right after that. He was never retried, 616 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: but the real perpetrators also were never tried. 617 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 3: Part of that prators the cops, though absolutely none. Nobody 618 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 3: paid for anything. 619 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: Nobody, including the lead homicide detective his name is Kay 620 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: James McCready and who falsely testified. I don't want to 621 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: get into all the details. 622 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 2: There's so many. 623 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: Movies, but it is crazy. 624 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 2: The bottom line is. 625 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: Bottom line is Marty was clearly innocent. They knew it 626 00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: at the time, they knew it throughout, and they still 627 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: know it. But they did everything they could to keep 628 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: him in prison for a life. 629 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 2: They didn't pay for it. 630 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: Nobody paid for it. 631 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: The guy who did it didn't pay for it. 632 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: In Boca Ratone, in a gated community, they owned, together 633 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: with Marty's father, a bagel store on Long Island, and 634 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: there were some there were some struggles over money and 635 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: some other business dealings they had that weren't working that 636 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: they were arguing about, and Marty's father had put up 637 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: a lot of money and was reclaiming his debt. The 638 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: business partnered him about five hundred and thirty thousand dollars 639 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight. That's a lot of money, a 640 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: lot once once Marty's parents were killed, the debt was gone. 641 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: He made out. Not only that, the bagel store made 642 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: it big and became franchised, and they're still all over 643 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: Long Island, New York City, Florida. What's the name Strathmore Bagels? 644 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 2: I know that place? Are you kidding me? 645 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: That that money was literally made off of the blood 646 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:57,919 Speaker 1: of Marty's parents and Marty's own sething. 647 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: Marty's discussed ony. 648 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: He did, and he won a settlement, so he you know, 649 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: is fortunately financially it. 650 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: Is totally not good. 651 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 3: The taxpayers are now having to pay for these jacks. 652 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: That happen in the first place. But at least for 653 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: his sake, he was made financially old by the county 654 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 1: and the state. 655 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 2: Okay, there's the depth. Yeah, there's the setup. 656 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 3: That is a real personal connection to what can happen. 657 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 3: And you even went to law school. But he's out. 658 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 3: And the question really is, lots of people have this 659 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 3: experience changed me? 660 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 2: Deal? 661 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 3: But then as time goes on and then justice is handled, 662 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 3: that experience changed me? 663 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: Can shrink? Whow was this different for you. 664 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, it's not only grown, it's transformed. There's 665 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: been multiple like offshoots. It's like a tree that just 666 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: keeps developing new branches. 667 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: Which we're going to get into. But it is incredible. 668 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: So, you know, the core, maybe the trunk, if I'm 669 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: going to stick with the tree metaphor, is Marty, and 670 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: everything stems from that and from Marty's experience and how 671 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: it transformed me and what it led me to do 672 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: in my life. But then there have been other branches, 673 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: and we can stick with the wrongful conviction one first, 674 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: although there's some others that go in different directions. 675 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 2: But yeah, we're going to go down that path. 676 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 1: Which one, Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So I learned 677 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: through Marty's case that things that I thought were horrifying 678 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: and glaringly wrong and just completely immoral and shocking the 679 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: conscience to any citizen. We're just routine. We're just business 680 00:36:53,880 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: as usual. And that's to say police having unbelievable way 681 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: to craft a story that is off in fiction. Now, 682 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: I just want to make clear that I have a 683 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 1: lot of respect for the difficulty of police work and 684 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: for keeping a public safe, and it's a profession that 685 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: I respect and that I want to see enforced and supported. 686 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: But it has to be ethical, and so I'm not 687 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 1: in a throwaway the police, defund the police, ban, the 688 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: police abolished, with any of that stuff. I'm for pro 689 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: ethical policing, honest policing, policing that supports citizens that don't choose. 690 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 2: The vast majority of cops. 691 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: Are I do. That's why I want to make sure I'm. 692 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 3: Not throwing Even if it's only three can do a 693 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 3: measurable day. 694 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 1: There is a bigger problem, just to be honest, which 695 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: is I do think the I'll say the majority are 696 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: fully ethical, and I will agree that a minority of 697 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: very small minority are deeply ethical. But then there's also 698 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: a lot who just look the other way. And I'm 699 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: really troubled by the blue code of silence, the way it's. 700 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 2: The blue wall thing. 701 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, And how they you know, look the 702 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: other way when their partner does something or files a 703 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: false report, the supervisor that knows that this is impossible. 704 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: I would like to see a tighter reining in of misconduct, 705 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: which would mean consequences for cops who lie or cheat 706 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: or steal or you know, frame people immediate firing. I'd 707 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: like to see charges against them. I'd like to see 708 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: it made impossible to do, rather than tolerated, if not 709 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: sometimes openly in some departments, openly support. 710 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 3: It's an ancient Greek notion that even if you're not 711 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 3: the actor, if you're aware of the actor and do nothing, 712 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 3: you're equally skilty. That's right, And that concludes part one 713 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 3: of our conversation with Mark Howard, and you don't want 714 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 3: to miss part two. It's now available to listen to. Together, guys, 715 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 3: we can change the country, and it starts with you. 716 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 3: I'll see in part two