WEBVTT - Mike Demarais on Design in Crypto and What Web 3.0 Will Look Like 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:14.920 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.599 I'm Joe Wisn't Palal, And I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, we've 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.720 obviously done a lot of episodes about crypto, probably doing 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.440 more and more to say the least, but there's still 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:29.720 big aspects of the space, like it's so sprawling and 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.320 broad and maybe ill defined that there's just a bunch 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:35.800 of stuff we have yet to cover. Yeah, I mean 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:39.159 there's new stuff happening every day, but certainly one of 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.080 the big things that has been going on recently is 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:47.120 this whole idea of web three Web three point though 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.279 n f T s, the idea of actually building new worlds, 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:57.520 new spaces, new identities on blockchain technology. Yeah, exactly right. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.000 So we've done a lot about defy in the past 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.840 ust and maybe maybe not crypto will have some disruptive 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:08.080 effect unclear. But then there's this whole other aspect and 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:10.840 as you mentioned, like n f T S and taws 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:14.759 and identity and de facto social networking, and I think 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.960 a lot of people are excited about some alternative to 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:20.680 I guess what I would say is the web two 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.800 point oh tech giants, Like there's this anxiety about the 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:28.360 power of a centralized company like Facebook or Twitter, and 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.280 maybe some hope, even if it's still perfectly articulated, of 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.280 how something that's decentralized and based on crypto or ethereum 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.760 specifically could create new spaces, new forms, new ways for 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.200 us to interact in a social manner that aren't tightly 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.280 controlled by one one uh one entity. Yeah, I think 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:52.080 that's right, although I think there's still attention there which 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.160 we can discuss. But the idea of being able to 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.240 have your identity on the web somewhere, or have your 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:02.720 assets in a wallet somewhere, and then be an absolute 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.280 control of them in the sense that you know, you 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.680 can move them, they're portable from one wallet to the 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:13.680 other without actually having to necessarily like interact too much 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:18.079 with the platform that you're using. Like, there is something 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.959 that is very attractive in that proposition. No, it's super 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.480 cool and like you know, the idea of say, being 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:29.000 able to log into an app or website without saying 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.320 a password or user name, just connect your wallet, it's 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.720 pretty cool. It feels like really powerful. On the other hand, 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.000 like I guess I have to say, I have a 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.799 hard time getting to okay yeah, but when does this 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.280 become a sort of genuine social interaction, Like, you know, 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.880 I can't I can't tweet and web three point o 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.240 yet as far as I know, no one else is there, 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:51.480 Like there's a bunch of social things that I do. 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.440 That's when everything becomes real for you, right when you 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:59.080 can tweet it. Yeah, that's basically the question. No, but literally, 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.400 like all my friends are in web two point oh, 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.160 and I get in theory that there's some web three 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:05.960 point of stuff that would allow us to interact, but 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:08.679 like I don't know what it played, Uh what it 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.080 what it looks like? What what social relations look like 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:16.600 in a web three point oh based uh world or whatever? Yeah, 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.880 fair enough, anyway we have. I'm very excited about our 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.639 guest today because I think he is someone who talks 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.160 a lot about crypto. He's in crypto and explores crypto 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.639 from this angle of like these tacit or de facto 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.679 social networks, and he's thought a lot about this is 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.360 a company that is building in this direction. I'm very excited. 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.920 We're gonna be speaking with Mike de m Ray, the 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.880 co founder of Rainbow dot Me. It's a crypto wallet 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:45.640 and built around all this stuff built for this stuff up. Mike, 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.600 thank you so much for joining us. What's up, Joe? 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.080 What's up? Tracy? Big fan of the show, excited to 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.320 be here? Except how many? How many duncans have you 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.280 had today so far? I'm on my second duncan right now, 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.360 feeling good. I feel it's a good number. You know, 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.720 this is pretty early for me. I'm normally, you know, 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.000 still up at the five am what I'd missed tweet? 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.880 You know what I mean? Normally I'm the first reply. Yeah, right, so, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.720 uh you know this is big, you say, GM at 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:17.200 one in the afternoon, Yes, exactly, GM. So in all seriousness, 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:19.160 you know what I think. I don't know if anyone's 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.560 made this analogy before, but I kind of feel like 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:27.000 Rainbow Rainbow dot me your company. It kind of feels 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.279 like the Tumbler of Web three point oh, or like 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:33.360 because Tumbler is like all the cool Brooklyn hipsters that 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.719 was like this very design oriented ease of use social networking, 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.960 making blogging this thing, and it's like, rather than installing 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:45.360 some boring WordPress template, just have this fun pool way 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.760 to interact and social media. Then you know too, pretty well, 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:50.599 I guess it got bought up by Yahoo. What do 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.680 you think about that analogy? Yeah, I definitely think so. 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:56.280 I think other people, you know, sometimes they say, oh 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.919 it feels like Snapchat or um, yeah, Tumbler as well. 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.760 I think that. Yeah. I think that Rainbow stands out 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:08.679 for being obsessively focused on on fun and delightful experiences 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:12.920 and yeah, we're really a design first company. Um. But yeah, 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:14.880 I definitely see the analogy. For sure. All the hit 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:19.120 kids are on Rainbow, that's my impression. Yeah. So when 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.120 most people here, you know, it's a beautiful app, I 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.320 think like they don't necessarily get the importance of that 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.560 or why you're so focused on the design aspect of it. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:34.360 But my understanding is you're very focused on it because 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:38.560 in a world of wallets, in a decentralized world of wallets, 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.719 where people have the option to easily switch from one 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.800 wallet to another. So you know, I use Meta mask, 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.560 but if I wanted to, I could easily transfer everything 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:53.400 over to Rainbow right now, then, like the thing that 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:58.880 you're offering is basically that design experience. Is that right? 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.120 Is that like the right way to think about how 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:06.960 you're differentiating yourself in this market? One? What's crazy is 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:11.000 about like with Web three, there's just simply no user modes. 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:13.320 Right So in the in the past, like the recent 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.960 you're you're using Facebook is because the network effects that 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.159 Facebook is built up. You know, all of your friends 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.159 are there, and it's really hard for a challenger to 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.839 come in and compete with those network effects. But with Ethereum, 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.000 you know, and and the portability of your of your 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.360 of your keys, a user can eject from a wallet 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.960 and start using another wallet in moments and there's nothing 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.360 locking them into a particular product. So yeah, it's it's 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.600 our belief that basically the product itself, which to us 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:48.320 means design, is really the core differentiator between these products 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.800 and really the only way to actually retain users. So 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:57.120 I don't think anyone who's interacted with crypto apps, whether 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.880 they be wallets, whether they be exchanges, whatever they are, 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.760 like there is not a ton of design sense in 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.080 the space right now. To say the least. I think 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:11.840 people complain about usability a lot. It's really scary you 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.960 like click one button and you're worried you're gonna lose uh, 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:17.760 you know, expose your private key to everyone. What do 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:19.840 you talk to us? Just like step back like what 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.640 do you see as like what's your design philosophy, what 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.600 do you see as the failures of the existing crypto designers? 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.800 And then what do you see as like how you 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:33.920 think about solution. Man, it sounds so so cliche, but 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.640 I think that people have been stuck in kind of 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.560 an old paradigm of thinking, where like, you know, they've 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.600 been used to the existing crypto products, and you know, 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.080 everyone in this space is such a big nerd that 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.760 it's hard for them to you know, imagine new styles, right, 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.440 new new styles of products. What I mean by that 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.000 is like you know, Meta mask and other wallets kind 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.840 of are all following the same like almost like utilitarian 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:04.400 approach to the product, and no one has really tried 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.960 to imagine it differently. It feels like, you know, there 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.720 just hasn't been a real attempt. It's so cliche. I 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.600 think that the example I always point to is you 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.880 all remember like Windows mobile phones. I think like it 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.480 was like with the style is with a little start menu. 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.080 It's like, you know, you can say that that's a smartphone, 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.440 but really, like you know, the iPhone came around and 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.320 even though on a on a a speck list, right, Oh, 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.520 it's it's it looks like it hits all the same 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:33.440 specs as a as a Window Windows mobile phone, but 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.679 in reality it was like the design of the iPhone 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.280 really unlocked this new type of products, right, it was 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.080 like there's a fore and after moment um, And we 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.360 sort of think about Rainbow in the same way. It's like, functionally, 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.720 you know, similar or nearly identical to other wallet products 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.960 and its capabilities, but the way that the product is packaged, 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.199 we think it's it's more you know, fun and accessible 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:00.800 and you know, less scary. But yeah, I mean, the 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.079 way that we approach design in general is first and foremost, 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.400 we are trying to make something that that my little 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.160 brother would use, is always my example user Both my 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.600 co founder and I have little brothers, and very much 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.200 Rainbow has been designed to kind of be something that 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.800 they vibe with. So that's always been our gut check. 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.439 So now that we've talked a little bit about the design, 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.840 can we talk about what's actually on Rainbow, or rather 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.920 what you can actually like store and buy and trade, 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:35.760 because like, obviously you can buy cryptocurrency, but you're also 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.559 offering um, you know, digital collectibles and n f t 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.360 s and things like that, So what's the thinking behind that. 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.360 Rainbow is an ethereum wallet, and it supports all of 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.479 the different types of assets that can exist on Ethereum, 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.840 so that can be everything from e r C twenty tokens, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:59.520 some defy governance tokens, things like that, stable coins, things 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.760 of that for I D as well as n f 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:06.400 t s And additionally, it also surfaces defied positions that 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.400 you might have. So if you go and to deposit 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.760 your money in one of these platforms, we recognize that 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.560 and essentially, you know, throw a custom interface up that 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.959 lets you, you know, see more information about those particular positions, 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:21.880 because you know, it's like when you actually deposit your 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:26.679 assets in these defied protocols, your assets are technically they 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.200 leave your wallet, so it's like, you know, meta mask 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.240 is unaware of your money when you going to posit 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.440 it into one of these defied protocols. So it's like, 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:37.800 you know, it's happened to me on my first defied trade, 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.319 Like it just disappeared from metal Mask, and I only 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.400 you know what, I only like rediscovered it today and 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.959 I'm very very happy that I managed to fire you rich? 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:50.480 Are you rich? No? I only make it. No, I 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.079 was no, I was just trying to learn a little 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.480 bit about yield farming. So I think I put in 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.959 like a hundred dollars and got two hundred dollars out. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.920 So no, sadly I haven't made it yet. You're gonna 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.560 make it well. So that behavior is exactly what we 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.000 think more people should be doing. We think that like 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.120 the best way to learn about the stuff is to 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.240 honestly just play around. The product Rainbow has been designed 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:32.880 honestly to encourage that. So I want to go back 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.880 to something you said comparing the Windows phone versus the iPhone. 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:40.400 So the Windows phone essentially started from the premise. I 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:42.920 think that the things that you would do on your 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.880 computer you could do on your phone, just smaller, just 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.080 with the smaller screen and to sort of crap your keyword, 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.120 and but you still do the same thing. You send emails, 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.319 maybe you try to like zoom in on a spreadsheet 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.880 and serve the web or something like that. With the 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:00.600 iPhone on paper is kind of the same thing, except 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.480 the design of the iPhone opened up these new worlds. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.400 And we obviously know that in the iPhone era, we 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.400 started using phones fundamentally different new things emerged, and I 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:13.920 thought that was interesting way you stated, what is this 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:18.160 sort of like new forms of interaction that can emerge 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.920 or that you envision or how people use it when 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.000 there is a sort of design and user friendly wallet 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:30.120 that people that actually brings delight. We actually think about 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:35.440 crypto today as being really like a trojan horse forgetting 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.400 um public key cryptography into the hands of regular day 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.920 you know, average people. So right now, it's like the 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.960 things attracting people to crypto is kind of you know, 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:49.200 speculative finance, and there's that's nothing wrong with that. That's great. 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.960 But in the future, what you can do once you 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.320 have keys in your pocket, ok, like a wallet in 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.880 your pocket, is do more things like use it as 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.040 your identity to various degree is UM. So some of 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:04.480 the more exciting things happening with that right now is is, yeah, 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.480 like using your Ethereum wallet as a log in. You know, 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:09.720 if you've ever logged, you know, if you've ever used 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.520 unit swap, you'll notice that there's no log and experience, 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.319 you're simply connecting your wallet. That's been taking off, that 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.760 user flow has been taking off a lot lately via 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:25.440 this concept of token gated communities, which is something popping 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.600 on Discord these days. So you know, on Discord you 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.160 can have a channel where you know, people can join 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.640 your channel only if they hold a token of a 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.800 certain type. So whether that's an n f T, whether 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:43.640 that's uh uni socks, whatever. Basically you can have communities 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.080 online now that you have to the contents of your 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:50.200 wallet or your ticket to enter the community. So the 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.560 I'd say the best answer to your question is, yet, 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.199 while it's kind of being used more and more for 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.520 closer to the concept of keys, are we going to 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:03.520 see in your view things that resemble what we think 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:08.040 of as social networking in this model of my only 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.320 login is my wallet? So maybe something that represents a 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.920 photo sharing app or something that represents chat like what 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.559 does because I think people intuitively, like I said in 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:22.000 the beginning, they like this idea of social interaction that's 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.480 not on some centralized company of servers. But can you 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.160 talk a little bit more about what you envision that 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:34.120 looking like, Yeah, I definitely think that it's gonna be iterative, right, 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.720 I don't think that cryptocentric social networking is ready to 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:42.640 go right now. Where we're at is basically people are 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:48.160 really loving this idea of portable social profiles, which I 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.280 guess is really a subset of social networking. Right, so, 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.800 you don't have your entire social graph today on ethereum. 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.600 You don't have all of it, you know, friends and followers, etcetera. 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.280 But what you do have is essentially a user profile 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.320 that you can share across applications. Right, so you can 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.920 have your avatar, your user, your user bio, you know 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.320 relevant links that you have, your Twitter, your get hub, etcetera. 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.040 You could fill that all in once on your E 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:18.560 N S name, and any application that would like to 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:23.280 is able to then respect that data, right and essentially 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:27.320 use that as the pre filled data in your profile 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:31.280 on all of those various sites. Social networking will begin 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.480 begin to get eaten away by crypto. But I do 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:38.080 think that there's fundamental things that need to happen before 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:42.640 that's like really viable. So I have two questions on this. 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.840 But you know, if if I if I have Tracy 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.520 Alloway dot eath, and I have this identity that's tied 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:55.160 to ethereum, how portable is that if say, you know, 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:59.160 suddenly Salona or I don't know, doge coin or something 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.200 like that become is like the de facto blockchain that 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.880 the entire Internet is using, Like is my eth identity, 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.880 my ether identity suddenly useless? And then secondly, I get 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:15.040 that decentralization and portability is like one of the big 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:19.640 offerings of this technology, but on the other hand, a 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.200 lot of it is still going through a platform of 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.080 one sort or another. And I just saw right before 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:30.800 we started this podcast that um open Sea, which sells 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.960 n f T s, it just took down like some 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.520 sort of all right n f T that someone had 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.200 put up there. So there's still some sort of censorship 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.240 and control because these things are still going through a 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.560 platform of some sorts. So I guess my question is 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:50.760 how decentralized is this? Really great question, So to the 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.040 first part of your question, what happens if ah, you 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:58.360 know a contender blockchain you know on ceas ethereum, and 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.440 how what happens then? So that's a good question. UM 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.119 E n S, which is really what I guess the 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.880 community is rallying around and has seen the most adoption 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.680 so far. It's actually designed and implemented in a way 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:17.320 that is an agnostic to ethereum. So yeah, so basically 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:22.480 Salana could read that data off the Ethereum blockchain, and 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.760 even today with with e n S, you are able 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:30.840 to configure essentially any blockchain's address and have it attached 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.200 to your e n S name. So e n S 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:37.720 is actually less hyper Ethereum centric as it might seem. 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.040 But in the end, it's our belief that Ethereum is 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.439 here to stay, whether or not other platforms continue to 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.760 see growth. That's that secondary that we think that Ethereum 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.679 is here to stay, and therefore, you know, building a 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.320 profile on Ethereum is you know, the most like conservative, 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.840 long term centric place to do it. The second question 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:01.000 is as far as like, you know, how decentralized is 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.680 this what's nice about e n S and this whole 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.879 concept of Ethereum as a log in is again it 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.719 puts the control in your hands. And whether or not 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:15.600 a third party application is actually decentralized or neutral, etcetera, 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.320 that's up to them, and you as a user can 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.800 choose to use that platform or not. Right so open 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:27.399 ce definitely has taken a strong approach with you know, 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.919 d m c A takedowns and I guess you know, 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.639 moderating the content on open c But in that in 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.600 no way does that actually take away from the power 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.920 you have as as a as an e n S user. Yeah. So, 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.399 so the data on your e n S name is 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:47.119 actually decentralized and immutable. So what you can do is 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.240 even um, you can configure your e n S name 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:54.360 and actually destroy the ability for that data to ever 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.400 be updated into the future if you'd like. Right, So, 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.119 what that actually means is that you can confu can 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.479 kind of like set it in stone and truly make it, 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.160 you know, unalterable if you if you so like. There's 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:08.960 a number of these platforms and they're you know, you know, 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:12.760 open ce also has their own profile system, right, they 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.440 have their own user name system in their own biosystem. 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:17.720 So I don't know if they're the best example of 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:22.080 a compatible platform with this portable profile concept. I'd say 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:26.320 like Mirror and unite swap are better examples of applications 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.280 that you know, are more tightly integrated with this idea 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:33.719 of a portable profile. Can you actually explain Mirror a 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.399 little bit? And so, I mean, you know, we're I 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.000 get we're not even talking about Rainbow right now, but 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:42.320 I feel like, because the idea is that you want 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.240 to be someone's entry way into this sort of decentralized 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.119 Do you like the term web three? I forget, you know, 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.840 I think the web the term web three was a 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:56.280 brilliant idea. UM. I don't have any issues with it. Um. 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:00.520 I think it's fine. Honestly, it's pragmatic. You I think 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:06.320 that perhaps to a certain demographic, certain you know, nomenclature 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:10.479 maybe has been tainted right by bad preconceptions about you know, 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.560 use cases, etcetera, right like as crypto just for drugs 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:19.040 and terrorists or whatever. And and that's you know, obviously 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.400 a poor framing because it's that's just not the reality. 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:24.560 So Web three is nice in that regard. So what 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:26.720 are we gonna do with Web three? Because like, okay, 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.080 I'm aware of like mirror and it kind of seems 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:34.320 like a little bit like medium or substat but with crypto. 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.440 But you know, medium and substat seem to work well. 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.160 And they people are making money and finding ways to 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.719 get paid and not have to be on you know, 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.280 work for some major news operation. What is the what 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:49.959 are we going to get out of Web three? So, 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:51.760 I mean it's a couple of things right now. Web 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.000 three is about having fun. It's about having fun. The 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.199 same way that playing around on the early Internet was 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.639 very fun. It really sparks your curiosity and it and 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.119 it kind of yeah, it's right now Web three is 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:08.000 about like remixing and having fun. Now broadly, I would 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:12.000 say the big difference, uh is the ability for content 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:16.560 creators to to monetize directly with their audience in a 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.720 super streamlined and undisturbed way as far as like there's 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.240 no middlemen. What is mirror? Mirror is a like a 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:28.080 content platform. It's similar to Medium. In the beginning, it 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.800 was essentially kind of gated where it wasn't open to 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.439 everybody and it was instead something that you had to 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:38.920 use tokens to vote on which writers. You know, we're 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:41.720 able to actually write on the platform. So I think 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.480 that I don't know Web three. I'd say it's one. 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.800 It's kind of this like fun living kind of like 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.720 democratic experiment in a lot of ways. So it's it's 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.720 as a user you're able to kind of it feels 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:58.760 like you're participating in every step of the way. Can 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:02.840 I ask another late technical question, just going back to 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:07.080 the notion of identity and you know digital assets which 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:11.840 are yours and tied to your wallet. My understanding is 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:16.760 that you own the token, right, so you own basically 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:22.360 a database entry that is somehow connected to a jpeg 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:28.399 or somehow connected to your identity. How do you link, like, 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:32.880 how do you actually link those two such that they're 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:38.000 immutable and incontrovertible without having a third party have to 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:40.960 do it? So you know, if I buy I don't 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.840 know one of those like APE n f T S, 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:47.760 I know it's an APE n f T because it 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:51.240 was listed on open c or whatever. But once I 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:55.359 own the data entry, what actually proves that it goes 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.560 to that particular jpeg. Let me think there's there's two 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.679 approaches to n f T s and the way that 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:08.119 the data is actually stored. So there's one path in 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:12.320 which the content itself, right that whatever the graphic or 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:16.080 media is, so that that can actually be stored directly 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:19.320 on chain using s v g S. So you know 0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:22.240 SPG as like an image format. You know, it's similar 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:26.200 to pn g S, except it's uh like lossless. So 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:28.320 examples of n f t s that are completely on 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:30.920 chain with s v g S are things like loop 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:36.480 or blit maps, you know, Ava stars, And that's ideal 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:40.560 because those are the most immutable and the most permanent. 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:43.720 The other path of for storing n f T data 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:50.000 is essentially keeping a record on ethereum that points to 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:53.960 the the third party location of where that n f 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.960 T data is stored. Right, So, you know, for example, 0:23:57.000 --> 0:24:00.679