1 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisn't Palal, And I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, we've 3 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: obviously done a lot of episodes about crypto, probably doing 4 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: more and more to say the least, but there's still 5 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: big aspects of the space, like it's so sprawling and 6 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: broad and maybe ill defined that there's just a bunch 7 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: of stuff we have yet to cover. Yeah, I mean 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: there's new stuff happening every day, but certainly one of 9 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: the big things that has been going on recently is 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: this whole idea of web three Web three point though 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,279 Speaker 1: n f T s, the idea of actually building new worlds, 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: new spaces, new identities on blockchain technology. Yeah, exactly right. 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: So we've done a lot about defy in the past 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: ust and maybe maybe not crypto will have some disruptive 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: effect unclear. But then there's this whole other aspect and 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, like n f T S and taws 17 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: and identity and de facto social networking, and I think 18 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people are excited about some alternative to 19 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: I guess what I would say is the web two 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: point oh tech giants, Like there's this anxiety about the 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: power of a centralized company like Facebook or Twitter, and 22 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: maybe some hope, even if it's still perfectly articulated, of 23 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: how something that's decentralized and based on crypto or ethereum 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: specifically could create new spaces, new forms, new ways for 25 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: us to interact in a social manner that aren't tightly 26 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: controlled by one one uh one entity. Yeah, I think 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: that's right, although I think there's still attention there which 28 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: we can discuss. But the idea of being able to 29 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: have your identity on the web somewhere, or have your 30 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: assets in a wallet somewhere, and then be an absolute 31 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: control of them in the sense that you know, you 32 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: can move them, they're portable from one wallet to the 33 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: other without actually having to necessarily like interact too much 34 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: with the platform that you're using. Like, there is something 35 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 1: that is very attractive in that proposition. No, it's super 36 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: cool and like you know, the idea of say, being 37 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: able to log into an app or website without saying 38 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: a password or user name, just connect your wallet, it's 39 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: pretty cool. It feels like really powerful. On the other hand, 40 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: like I guess I have to say, I have a 41 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: hard time getting to okay yeah, but when does this 42 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: become a sort of genuine social interaction, Like, you know, 43 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: I can't I can't tweet and web three point o 44 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: yet as far as I know, no one else is there, 45 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: Like there's a bunch of social things that I do. 46 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: That's when everything becomes real for you, right when you 47 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: can tweet it. Yeah, that's basically the question. No, but literally, 48 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: like all my friends are in web two point oh, 49 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: and I get in theory that there's some web three 50 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: point of stuff that would allow us to interact, but 51 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 1: like I don't know what it played, Uh what it 52 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: what it looks like? What what social relations look like 53 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: in a web three point oh based uh world or whatever? Yeah, 54 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: fair enough, anyway we have. I'm very excited about our 55 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: guest today because I think he is someone who talks 56 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: a lot about crypto. He's in crypto and explores crypto 57 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: from this angle of like these tacit or de facto 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,679 Speaker 1: social networks, and he's thought a lot about this is 59 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: a company that is building in this direction. I'm very excited. 60 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: We're gonna be speaking with Mike de m Ray, the 61 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: co founder of Rainbow dot Me. It's a crypto wallet 62 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: and built around all this stuff built for this stuff up. Mike, 63 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. What's up, Joe? 64 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: What's up? Tracy? Big fan of the show, excited to 65 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: be here? Except how many? How many duncans have you 66 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: had today so far? I'm on my second duncan right now, 67 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: feeling good. I feel it's a good number. You know, 68 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: this is pretty early for me. I'm normally, you know, 69 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: still up at the five am what I'd missed tweet? 70 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Normally I'm the first reply. Yeah, right, so, 71 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: uh you know this is big, you say, GM at 72 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: one in the afternoon, Yes, exactly, GM. So in all seriousness, 73 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: you know what I think. I don't know if anyone's 74 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: made this analogy before, but I kind of feel like 75 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: Rainbow Rainbow dot me your company. It kind of feels 76 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: like the Tumbler of Web three point oh, or like 77 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: because Tumbler is like all the cool Brooklyn hipsters that 78 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: was like this very design oriented ease of use social networking, 79 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: making blogging this thing, and it's like, rather than installing 80 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: some boring WordPress template, just have this fun pool way 81 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: to interact and social media. Then you know too, pretty well, 82 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: I guess it got bought up by Yahoo. What do 83 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: you think about that analogy? Yeah, I definitely think so. 84 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: I think other people, you know, sometimes they say, oh 85 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: it feels like Snapchat or um, yeah, Tumbler as well. 86 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: I think that. Yeah. I think that Rainbow stands out 87 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:08,679 Speaker 1: for being obsessively focused on on fun and delightful experiences 88 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, we're really a design first company. Um. But yeah, 89 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: I definitely see the analogy. For sure. All the hit 90 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: kids are on Rainbow, that's my impression. Yeah. So when 91 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: most people here, you know, it's a beautiful app, I 92 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: think like they don't necessarily get the importance of that 93 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: or why you're so focused on the design aspect of it. 94 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: But my understanding is you're very focused on it because 95 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: in a world of wallets, in a decentralized world of wallets, 96 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: where people have the option to easily switch from one 97 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: wallet to another. So you know, I use Meta mask, 98 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: but if I wanted to, I could easily transfer everything 99 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: over to Rainbow right now, then, like the thing that 100 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: you're offering is basically that design experience. Is that right? 101 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: Is that like the right way to think about how 102 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: you're differentiating yourself in this market? One? What's crazy is 103 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: about like with Web three, there's just simply no user modes. 104 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: Right So in the in the past, like the recent 105 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: you're you're using Facebook is because the network effects that 106 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: Facebook is built up. You know, all of your friends 107 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: are there, and it's really hard for a challenger to 108 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: come in and compete with those network effects. But with Ethereum, 109 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, and and the portability of your of your 110 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: of your keys, a user can eject from a wallet 111 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: and start using another wallet in moments and there's nothing 112 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: locking them into a particular product. So yeah, it's it's 113 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: our belief that basically the product itself, which to us 114 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: means design, is really the core differentiator between these products 115 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: and really the only way to actually retain users. So 116 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone who's interacted with crypto apps, whether 117 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: they be wallets, whether they be exchanges, whatever they are, 118 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: like there is not a ton of design sense in 119 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: the space right now. To say the least. I think 120 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: people complain about usability a lot. It's really scary you 121 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: like click one button and you're worried you're gonna lose uh, 122 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, expose your private key to everyone. What do 123 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: you talk to us? Just like step back like what 124 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: do you see as like what's your design philosophy, what 125 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: do you see as the failures of the existing crypto designers? 126 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: And then what do you see as like how you 127 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: think about solution. Man, it sounds so so cliche, but 128 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: I think that people have been stuck in kind of 129 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: an old paradigm of thinking, where like, you know, they've 130 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: been used to the existing crypto products, and you know, 131 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: everyone in this space is such a big nerd that 132 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: it's hard for them to you know, imagine new styles, right, 133 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: new new styles of products. What I mean by that 134 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: is like you know, Meta mask and other wallets kind 135 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: of are all following the same like almost like utilitarian 136 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: approach to the product, and no one has really tried 137 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: to imagine it differently. It feels like, you know, there 138 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: just hasn't been a real attempt. It's so cliche. I 139 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: think that the example I always point to is you 140 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: all remember like Windows mobile phones. I think like it 141 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: was like with the style is with a little start menu. 142 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you can say that that's a smartphone, 143 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: but really, like you know, the iPhone came around and 144 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: even though on a on a a speck list, right, Oh, 145 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: it's it's it looks like it hits all the same 146 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: specs as a as a Window Windows mobile phone, but 147 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: in reality it was like the design of the iPhone 148 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: really unlocked this new type of products, right, it was 149 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: like there's a fore and after moment um, And we 150 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: sort of think about Rainbow in the same way. It's like, functionally, 151 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: you know, similar or nearly identical to other wallet products 152 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: and its capabilities, but the way that the product is packaged, 153 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: we think it's it's more you know, fun and accessible 154 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: and you know, less scary. But yeah, I mean, the 155 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: way that we approach design in general is first and foremost, 156 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: we are trying to make something that that my little 157 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: brother would use, is always my example user Both my 158 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: co founder and I have little brothers, and very much 159 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: Rainbow has been designed to kind of be something that 160 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: they vibe with. So that's always been our gut check. 161 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: So now that we've talked a little bit about the design, 162 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: can we talk about what's actually on Rainbow, or rather 163 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: what you can actually like store and buy and trade, 164 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: because like, obviously you can buy cryptocurrency, but you're also 165 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: offering um, you know, digital collectibles and n f t 166 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: s and things like that, So what's the thinking behind that. 167 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: Rainbow is an ethereum wallet, and it supports all of 168 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,479 Speaker 1: the different types of assets that can exist on Ethereum, 169 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: so that can be everything from e r C twenty tokens, 170 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: some defy governance tokens, things like that, stable coins, things 171 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: of that for I D as well as n f 172 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: t s And additionally, it also surfaces defied positions that 173 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: you might have. So if you go and to deposit 174 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: your money in one of these platforms, we recognize that 175 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: and essentially, you know, throw a custom interface up that 176 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 1: lets you, you know, see more information about those particular positions, 177 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: because you know, it's like when you actually deposit your 178 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 1: assets in these defied protocols, your assets are technically they 179 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: leave your wallet, so it's like, you know, meta mask 180 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: is unaware of your money when you going to posit 181 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: it into one of these defied protocols. So it's like, 182 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's happened to me on my first defied trade, 183 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: Like it just disappeared from metal Mask, and I only 184 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: you know what, I only like rediscovered it today and 185 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: I'm very very happy that I managed to fire you rich? 186 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: Are you rich? No? I only make it. No, I 187 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: was no, I was just trying to learn a little 188 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: bit about yield farming. So I think I put in 189 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: like a hundred dollars and got two hundred dollars out. 190 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: So no, sadly I haven't made it yet. You're gonna 191 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: make it well. So that behavior is exactly what we 192 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: think more people should be doing. We think that like 193 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: the best way to learn about the stuff is to 194 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: honestly just play around. The product Rainbow has been designed 195 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: honestly to encourage that. So I want to go back 196 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: to something you said comparing the Windows phone versus the iPhone. 197 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: So the Windows phone essentially started from the premise. I 198 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: think that the things that you would do on your 199 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: computer you could do on your phone, just smaller, just 200 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: with the smaller screen and to sort of crap your keyword, 201 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: and but you still do the same thing. You send emails, 202 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: maybe you try to like zoom in on a spreadsheet 203 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: and serve the web or something like that. With the 204 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: iPhone on paper is kind of the same thing, except 205 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: the design of the iPhone opened up these new worlds. 206 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: And we obviously know that in the iPhone era, we 207 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: started using phones fundamentally different new things emerged, and I 208 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: thought that was interesting way you stated, what is this 209 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: sort of like new forms of interaction that can emerge 210 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: or that you envision or how people use it when 211 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: there is a sort of design and user friendly wallet 212 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: that people that actually brings delight. We actually think about 213 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: crypto today as being really like a trojan horse forgetting 214 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: um public key cryptography into the hands of regular day 215 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, average people. So right now, it's like the 216 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: things attracting people to crypto is kind of you know, 217 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: speculative finance, and there's that's nothing wrong with that. That's great. 218 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: But in the future, what you can do once you 219 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: have keys in your pocket, ok, like a wallet in 220 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: your pocket, is do more things like use it as 221 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: your identity to various degree is UM. So some of 222 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: the more exciting things happening with that right now is is, yeah, 223 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: like using your Ethereum wallet as a log in. You know, 224 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: if you've ever logged, you know, if you've ever used 225 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: unit swap, you'll notice that there's no log and experience, 226 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: you're simply connecting your wallet. That's been taking off, that 227 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: user flow has been taking off a lot lately via 228 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: this concept of token gated communities, which is something popping 229 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: on Discord these days. So you know, on Discord you 230 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: can have a channel where you know, people can join 231 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: your channel only if they hold a token of a 232 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: certain type. So whether that's an n f T, whether 233 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: that's uh uni socks, whatever. Basically you can have communities 234 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: online now that you have to the contents of your 235 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: wallet or your ticket to enter the community. So the 236 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: I'd say the best answer to your question is, yet, 237 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 1: while it's kind of being used more and more for 238 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: closer to the concept of keys, are we going to 239 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: see in your view things that resemble what we think 240 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: of as social networking in this model of my only 241 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: login is my wallet? So maybe something that represents a 242 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: photo sharing app or something that represents chat like what 243 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: does because I think people intuitively, like I said in 244 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: the beginning, they like this idea of social interaction that's 245 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: not on some centralized company of servers. But can you 246 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about what you envision that 247 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: looking like, Yeah, I definitely think that it's gonna be iterative, right, 248 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: I don't think that cryptocentric social networking is ready to 249 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: go right now. Where we're at is basically people are 250 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: really loving this idea of portable social profiles, which I 251 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: guess is really a subset of social networking. Right, so, 252 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: you don't have your entire social graph today on ethereum. 253 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: You don't have all of it, you know, friends and followers, etcetera. 254 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: But what you do have is essentially a user profile 255 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: that you can share across applications. Right, so you can 256 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: have your avatar, your user, your user bio, you know 257 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: relevant links that you have, your Twitter, your get hub, etcetera. 258 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: You could fill that all in once on your E 259 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: N S name, and any application that would like to 260 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: is able to then respect that data, right and essentially 261 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: use that as the pre filled data in your profile 262 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: on all of those various sites. Social networking will begin 263 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: begin to get eaten away by crypto. But I do 264 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: think that there's fundamental things that need to happen before 265 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: that's like really viable. So I have two questions on this. 266 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: But you know, if if I if I have Tracy 267 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: Alloway dot eath, and I have this identity that's tied 268 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: to ethereum, how portable is that if say, you know, 269 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: suddenly Salona or I don't know, doge coin or something 270 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: like that become is like the de facto blockchain that 271 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: the entire Internet is using, Like is my eth identity, 272 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: my ether identity suddenly useless? And then secondly, I get 273 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: that decentralization and portability is like one of the big 274 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: offerings of this technology, but on the other hand, a 275 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: lot of it is still going through a platform of 276 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: one sort or another. And I just saw right before 277 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: we started this podcast that um open Sea, which sells 278 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: n f T s, it just took down like some 279 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: sort of all right n f T that someone had 280 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: put up there. So there's still some sort of censorship 281 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: and control because these things are still going through a 282 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: platform of some sorts. So I guess my question is 283 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: how decentralized is this? Really great question, So to the 284 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: first part of your question, what happens if ah, you 285 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: know a contender blockchain you know on ceas ethereum, and 286 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: how what happens then? So that's a good question. UM 287 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: E n S, which is really what I guess the 288 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: community is rallying around and has seen the most adoption 289 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: so far. It's actually designed and implemented in a way 290 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: that is an agnostic to ethereum. So yeah, so basically 291 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: Salana could read that data off the Ethereum blockchain, and 292 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: even today with with e n S, you are able 293 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: to configure essentially any blockchain's address and have it attached 294 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: to your e n S name. So e n S 295 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: is actually less hyper Ethereum centric as it might seem. 296 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: But in the end, it's our belief that Ethereum is 297 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: here to stay, whether or not other platforms continue to 298 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: see growth. That's that secondary that we think that Ethereum 299 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: is here to stay, and therefore, you know, building a 300 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: profile on Ethereum is you know, the most like conservative, 301 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: long term centric place to do it. The second question 302 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: is as far as like, you know, how decentralized is 303 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: this what's nice about e n S and this whole 304 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: concept of Ethereum as a log in is again it 305 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: puts the control in your hands. And whether or not 306 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: a third party application is actually decentralized or neutral, etcetera, 307 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: that's up to them, and you as a user can 308 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: choose to use that platform or not. Right so open 309 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: ce definitely has taken a strong approach with you know, 310 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: d m c A takedowns and I guess you know, 311 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: moderating the content on open c But in that in 312 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: no way does that actually take away from the power 313 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: you have as as a as an e n S user. Yeah. So, 314 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: so the data on your e n S name is 315 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: actually decentralized and immutable. So what you can do is 316 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: even um, you can configure your e n S name 317 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: and actually destroy the ability for that data to ever 318 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: be updated into the future if you'd like. Right, So, 319 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: what that actually means is that you can confu can 320 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 1: kind of like set it in stone and truly make it, 321 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: you know, unalterable if you if you so like. There's 322 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: a number of these platforms and they're you know, you know, 323 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: open ce also has their own profile system, right, they 324 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: have their own user name system in their own biosystem. 325 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: So I don't know if they're the best example of 326 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: a compatible platform with this portable profile concept. I'd say 327 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: like Mirror and unite swap are better examples of applications 328 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: that you know, are more tightly integrated with this idea 329 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,719 Speaker 1: of a portable profile. Can you actually explain Mirror a 330 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: little bit? And so, I mean, you know, we're I 331 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: get we're not even talking about Rainbow right now, but 332 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: I feel like, because the idea is that you want 333 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: to be someone's entry way into this sort of decentralized 334 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: Do you like the term web three? I forget, you know, 335 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: I think the web the term web three was a 336 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: brilliant idea. UM. I don't have any issues with it. Um. 337 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: I think it's fine. Honestly, it's pragmatic. You I think 338 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: that perhaps to a certain demographic, certain you know, nomenclature 339 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,479 Speaker 1: maybe has been tainted right by bad preconceptions about you know, 340 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: use cases, etcetera, right like as crypto just for drugs 341 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: and terrorists or whatever. And and that's you know, obviously 342 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: a poor framing because it's that's just not the reality. 343 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: So Web three is nice in that regard. So what 344 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: are we gonna do with Web three? Because like, okay, 345 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: I'm aware of like mirror and it kind of seems 346 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: like a little bit like medium or substat but with crypto. 347 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: But you know, medium and substat seem to work well. 348 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: And they people are making money and finding ways to 349 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: get paid and not have to be on you know, 350 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: work for some major news operation. What is the what 351 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 1: are we going to get out of Web three? So, 352 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: I mean it's a couple of things right now. Web 353 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: three is about having fun. It's about having fun. The 354 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: same way that playing around on the early Internet was 355 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: very fun. It really sparks your curiosity and it and 356 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: it kind of yeah, it's right now Web three is 357 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: about like remixing and having fun. Now broadly, I would 358 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: say the big difference, uh is the ability for content 359 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: creators to to monetize directly with their audience in a 360 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: super streamlined and undisturbed way as far as like there's 361 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: no middlemen. What is mirror? Mirror is a like a 362 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: content platform. It's similar to Medium. In the beginning, it 363 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: was essentially kind of gated where it wasn't open to 364 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: everybody and it was instead something that you had to 365 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: use tokens to vote on which writers. You know, we're 366 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: able to actually write on the platform. So I think 367 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: that I don't know Web three. I'd say it's one. 368 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: It's kind of this like fun living kind of like 369 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: democratic experiment in a lot of ways. So it's it's 370 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: as a user you're able to kind of it feels 371 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: like you're participating in every step of the way. Can 372 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: I ask another late technical question, just going back to 373 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: the notion of identity and you know digital assets which 374 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: are yours and tied to your wallet. My understanding is 375 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: that you own the token, right, so you own basically 376 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: a database entry that is somehow connected to a jpeg 377 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: or somehow connected to your identity. How do you link, like, 378 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: how do you actually link those two such that they're 379 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: immutable and incontrovertible without having a third party have to 380 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: do it? So you know, if I buy I don't 381 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: know one of those like APE n f T S, 382 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: I know it's an APE n f T because it 383 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: was listed on open c or whatever. But once I 384 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: own the data entry, what actually proves that it goes 385 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: to that particular jpeg. Let me think there's there's two 386 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: approaches to n f T s and the way that 387 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: the data is actually stored. So there's one path in 388 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: which the content itself, right that whatever the graphic or 389 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: media is, so that that can actually be stored directly 390 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: on chain using s v g S. So you know 391 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: SPG as like an image format. You know, it's similar 392 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: to pn g S, except it's uh like lossless. So 393 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: examples of n f t s that are completely on 394 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: chain with s v g S are things like loop 395 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: or blit maps, you know, Ava stars, And that's ideal 396 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: because those are the most immutable and the most permanent. 397 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: The other path of for storing n f T data 398 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: is essentially keeping a record on ethereum that points to 399 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: the the third party location of where that n f 400 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: T data is stored. Right, So, you know, for example, 401 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: Crypto Kiddies, one of the original n f T the 402 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: data for the Crypto Kitties images are actually being stored 403 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: on something similar to Amazon Web Services. Right now, that 404 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: might seem problematic, but in fact there's actually a number 405 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: of ways that that's really not that problematic. So say 406 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: the crypto Kitties community, you know, so they all love 407 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: the kiddies. Everyone is obsessed with the kiddies. If Dapper Labs, 408 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: the creator of Crypto Kitties, went out of business tomorrow 409 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: and stopped paying their AWS bills, the community itself could 410 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: easily recreate the entire thing. Meaning as long as one person, 411 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: where a couple of people have essentially like you know, 412 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: mirrored or you know, archived all of the images and 413 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: the associated token ideas that they're matched with, it would 414 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: be pretty trivial for the community to reboots the storage 415 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: of that of that media type. Right, So, yeah, I 416 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: think that as far as like the permanence of that data. 417 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: That's something that people are very, very interested in, and 418 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: there's a number of you know, novel improvements that people 419 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: are working on right now, you know. So it's like 420 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: it's an ongoing kind of like R and D effort. 421 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: So you just mentioned crypto kitties, which reminded me of 422 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: gas fees on ethereum, because I remember back in the 423 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: olden days, crypto kitties used to like clog up the 424 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: entire chain, and this is still an ongoing issue for 425 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: anyone who's actually doing stuff on defy or trading, and 426 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: you know, you might put in a trade or you 427 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: might say that you want to buy something and then 428 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: suddenly your gas fee goes up, and that's not much 429 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: fun for everyone. So I'm wondering, given that your goal 430 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: is basically to create an enjoyable wallet and to make 431 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: the Internet fun once again, how much of an impediment 432 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: is the gas fee issue. Yeah, it definitely sucks how 433 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: expensive gases these days, So it is an impediment. It's 434 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: like meaning, you know, not everybody. If everyone in the 435 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: world used Ethereum today, it'd be bad, right, So it's 436 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: almost like it is inherently not ready for everybody. There 437 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: are a number of solutions, um that are very exciting 438 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: that we think, you know, we'll largely solve that problem, 439 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: you know, And and the timelines on those things are 440 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: anything from six months to a year and a half, 441 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: right um. In the meantime, though, we really think that 442 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: it's okay that you know, gas is expensive, and we 443 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: largely view this as perhaps a little bit of like 444 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: a luxury experiment, right that this is really like, this 445 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: is experimental stuff. Maybe it's a little a little bit 446 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: of a luxury good as far as like the affordability 447 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: of playing around with these things, it's our strategy to 448 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: really focus on creating the most unbounded feature full product 449 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: kind of at the expense of the affordability um. And 450 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: the reason why is because once these technologies come along 451 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: that allow Ethereum to scale more affordably, our product will 452 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: be able to easily adopt those things, right um. Whereas 453 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: if we focused exclusively on making gas fees cheaper in Rainbow, 454 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: it would actually mean that Rainbow would have an extremely 455 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, small subset of its current features because only 456 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: so many things actually work on those uh you know, 457 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: layer two's, et cetera. So where of the belief that 458 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: it's okay that you know, gas is a little expensive 459 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: and that we would rather have, yeah, like as many 460 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: cool things to do in Rainbow as possible, you know, 461 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: and if if that potentially limits it's it's immediate user base, 462 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: we think that's okay. We've been here for years. Honestly, 463 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: it's blown my mind the you know, the interest that 464 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: Rainbow has gotten over the last year. Um, and we 465 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: we wouldn't have expected this, this you know, level of 466 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 1: adoption to have happened so soon. So honestly, if anything, yeah, 467 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: like we're excited and this is going, you know, way 468 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: better than we thought. So the gas fees, you know, 469 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: they'll go down for sure. So I have a question 470 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: about n F two. Is so like, I'm a boomer 471 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: obviously and buy and large. When I look at, uh, 472 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: when I look at like various n f T projects, 473 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: I guess, in some sense, the idea of like buying into, 474 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: like I don't know, some collection of art and then 475 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: having like a gateway to a discord where maybe I 476 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: could talk to people or do stuff with them. Like 477 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: I guess maybe it kind of seems cool in theory, 478 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: but in practice I have to say, none of it 479 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: appeals to me, And I'm not a n f TY either, 480 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: And I'm not like, oh, I'm just gonna like right 481 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: click and say that, like I get, okay, you own this, 482 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: but like I don't care about the apes. I don't 483 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: care about the kiddies. I don't care about It's not 484 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: my thing. What is going to be like a type 485 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: of n f T thing that, Well, what am I 486 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: gonna like, like, when's the thing gonna When is there 487 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: going to be something that sort of appeals to normally 488 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: is like myself. So I think that, Yeah, n f 489 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: T s, it's either you kind of get them or 490 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 1: you don't. I think that, Well, Joe, are you a 491 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: collector of anything? I guess or identify as a click? Yeah, no, 492 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: I guess that's the thing. Yeah, so it's an n 493 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: f T I think that. But I like the idea. 494 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: But but I but I like the like when when 495 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: people talk about like a community or it's like, oh, 496 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: you buy this and you're part of some scene, like 497 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: I guess, like you know, like oh, the apes like 498 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: they hang out with each other ira all. Like I 499 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: guess I kind of get that theory. I don't like, 500 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's not they're not my scene. That's fine, 501 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: it's a different scene. But like you know, I don't 502 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,719 Speaker 1: hate the idea of like a scene per se or 503 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: like buying into some community. I just haven't seen anything 504 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: that like. It looks very fun to me. Yeah, I 505 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: think that n f t s are just like crypto 506 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: in general, which I find to be an asset that 507 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: almost comes with that scene built in, right, Like from 508 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: the beginning, crypto assets tend to kind of evoke almost 509 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: a religious zeal from people right where it's like you are, 510 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: now you've bought into this thing, and you have this 511 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: vision for the future of that thing, and you know 512 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: it comes with it, you know, ideology, it comes with it, 513 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: whatever belief system. And I think the n f t 514 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: s are largely similar to that. N f t s 515 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: will be a part of people's lives, whether they realize 516 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: it or not, in the sense that you know, the 517 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: e n S names that we were talking about before, Um, 518 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: you know those are actually n f t s. That's 519 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: that's how they're That's how they functionally work, is that 520 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: they that they are n f t s. You know, 521 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: whether or not, Joe, you'll be collect doing cartoons, you know, 522 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: who cares? Right, Like I think that other. So there's 523 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: other things you can do with n f t S 524 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: as well, purely from a functional perspective. For example, there's 525 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: like Rainbows interested in UM potentially doing you know a 526 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: k y C n f T right UM where essentially, 527 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: once you've been ky ced, you know, to access our 528 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: fiad on ramp, we we could issue an n f 529 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,479 Speaker 1: T that says, hey, this is a real human who 530 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: has gone through the k y C process UM, and 531 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: third parties could use that token UM or the existence 532 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,719 Speaker 1: of it, for example, you know, to unlock further functionality 533 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: in their app. Right. So you might have some feature 534 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: in your app and you really don't want it to 535 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: be bodied, right, you don't want it to be like, 536 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, someone in an automated way to take advantage 537 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: of it UM, and you could use the k y 538 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: C n f T to to only let you know 539 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: humans through right. That whole concept was really you know, 540 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: pioneered by this company Wire a few years ago, but 541 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: no one ran with it. N f T S. Yeah, 542 00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: you really have to be a collector of something to 543 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: really get them. I think UM or at least in 544 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: the current trends. So what's the deal are people really 545 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: paying a hundred and five thousand dollars for a pair 546 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: of Yeah, I mean people are paying a lot of 547 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: money these days for the uniss You can you explain that. 548 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: Why is the price of unisocks? What is it and 549 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: why is it a hundred and five thousand dollars for 550 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: a pair of socks? If I'm reading this right. Yeah, 551 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: So unisos are somewhat similar to n f T s 552 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: and really they're collectibles, right, Really, that's what an n 553 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: f T is, and that's what unisos are. Unisos are 554 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: instead what's called an e RC twenty token, so they're 555 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: more of like, you know, a currency than uh an 556 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: n f T is um. But yeah, what unisox are 557 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: was this really silly experiment done by the unie Swap 558 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: team back in um as a demonstration of the unit 559 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: swap protocol. Uh So, what unisox are is basically like 560 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: merch for unit swap. The company it's it's branded socks. 561 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: And what they did was they created five pairs of 562 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: socks and then five hundred socks tokens um and put 563 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: them on unit swap, which is a decentralized exchange. Then 564 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: anyone in the world can buy and trade the socks token, 565 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: and at any time you can take one full socks 566 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: token and redeem it, meaning it gets burned, and then 567 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: the unit swap team will mail you a pair of 568 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: the socks. So that whole system ends up with something 569 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: looking like kind of the way that you know, it 570 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: essentially creates something close to Yeasies, right, or kind of 571 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: like Supreme, where you have this limited edition run product 572 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: that you know, it's like, yeah, it's it's like, you know, memorabilia. 573 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: But what's cool about unisox is like, instead of you know, 574 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: buying you know, Yeasies and then sitting on them and 575 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: hoping that the price appreciates and then like having to 576 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: mail the physical box, what's nice with unis oxes you 577 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: can just trade the token back and forth, you know, 578 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: if you're there to purely speculate on the price of 579 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: that thing. Instead of having a custody the box, you 580 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: can just trade the token back and forth and the 581 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: box sits you know where it is, right. So it's 582 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: it's a really interesting experiment in kind of like bringing 583 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: markets or making markets more efficient, uh, in you know, 584 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: non traditional markets, right. I think the closest analogy to 585 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: unisox is like high end steakers in that whole culture. 586 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's something that crypto o g is, like, 587 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 1: you know, us as a status symbol. I guess. Yeah. 588 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: So just on this note, I saw a really great 589 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: description of n f t S today and I wish 590 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: I could remember where it was from, but I've forgotten. 591 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: But the basic argument was that like forever or like 592 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: throughout all of history, there have been rich people who 593 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: have a lot of money that they can spend on 594 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: whatever they want, and traditionally those things that they've been 595 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: buying happens status symbols like I don't know, watches or 596 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: sneakers or fancy clothes or bags or whatever. And now 597 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: there's a whole different class of people who have a 598 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: lot of money, who've made a lot of money out 599 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: of the crypto space, and for them, the status symbol 600 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: is now n f t S, Like that's the thing 601 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: that shows that you know who you are and how 602 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: much money you've made, and it's basically sort of like 603 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: digital bragging rights for nerds. Does that make sense, Yeah, 604 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: very much. Yeah. I mean it's similar to I don't know, 605 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: it's like you meet a hipster and they're like, yeah, 606 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: I like that band five years ago, right. And it's 607 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: like if you own some of these n f T 608 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: s and you've had them for years, I mean you 609 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: could have bought Crypto Punks a few years ago for 610 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: like a hundred dollars, right, and they're now I don't 611 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: even know, like sixty or something. You know, like Joe, 612 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: I'm sitting you know, my day is mostly sitting on Twitter, right, 613 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: And you know, how do you express yourself on Twitter 614 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: or in these digital places? And U n f T 615 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: s are a really great way to do that. I 616 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: don't exclusively tie them to like wealth or status. I 617 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 1: think of it more as self expression to a degree. 618 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I think I think honestly that 619 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: they're just like fun collectibles. Um, you know, some people 620 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,240 Speaker 1: collect anime dolls or you know, baseball cards like whatever, 621 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: and uh yeah, n f T is just like are 622 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: a new thing. So speaking of n f T s, 623 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: and this actually relates to Tracy's question about you know, 624 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: will ethereum be the chain that wins out? Literally, while 625 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: we were recording this episode, I see that, uh, former 626 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: First Lady Milana Trump is launching an n f T 627 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 1: project and it's on the but it's on the Salanta 628 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: block chain. And also I saw last night Michael Jordan 629 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: and his son they're also launching some sort of like 630 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: fan experience n f T thing and on the Salanta blockchain. 631 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: And I guess the current temporarily at least, you know, 632 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: you mentioned like gas fees on Ethereum, like you think 633 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: it will be solved, but temporarily, other chains like Salana 634 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: are much cheaper. And furthermore, I think like if you're 635 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,919 Speaker 1: like just like a Jordans fan or on your Trump fan, 636 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: you probably don't care too. You might not be that 637 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: much interested in, like you know, various aspects of decentralization 638 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: and other pluses and minuses. You just want to like 639 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: have a cheap way to buy something from a celebrity 640 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: that you like. How much of a threat it is, 641 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: like you know, all these people are just like, yeah, 642 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: let's just put it on the cheap chain. How do 643 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: you think about like that competition and the sort of 644 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: like threat that poses to Ethereum as the scaling and 645 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: as the layer two uh solutions. Uh, you know, there's 646 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: still not really still not really built or widely available. 647 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: Yet There's has been some interesting traction happening over in 648 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: the world of Salana. One of the things to consider 649 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 1: when assessing one of these chains is simply the ecosystem itself. 650 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,959 Speaker 1: One of the biggest values about you know, Web three, 651 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: and so it's like I have an ethereum wallet. The 652 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: nice thing about an ethereum wallet is that it's compatible 653 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: with so many different things. It's like all of the 654 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: assets within it are interoperable with each other, and all 655 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 1: of the applications um, you know, targeting ethereum can interact 656 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: with those assets. And you know, if most of your 657 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: assets are over here in ethereum, but then you wanted 658 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: to go by that Michael Jordan's n FT over on Salana, 659 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: that actually creates this like weird fragmentation where now it's 660 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: like you have assets over their assets over here that 661 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,919 Speaker 1: are incompatible with each other. I think that there's there's 662 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: an appeal right now for these systems that have cheaper 663 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,720 Speaker 1: gas fees. But you know, it's not truly just about decentralization. 664 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 1: That's not the like, you know, the only trade off. 665 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: There's like the reliability aspect as well, and you have 666 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: to think, like, you know, which one of these systems 667 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 1: will will definitely exist in five or ten years from now. 668 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: I guess as you sort of applied also the interoperability, 669 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: so that in theory you want different n f tw 670 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: s on the same chain to create the possibility that 671 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: somehow they could interact with each other or work, and 672 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: so there's sort of like a correct network effects. Yeah, exactly, 673 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: there's a network effect there. And um, I'm not a 674 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: crazy maximalist or anything. If anything, I honestly kind of 675 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: consider myself, like you know, approach this stuff pretty conservatively. 676 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: When we started Rainbow, people were trying to pay us 677 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: to integrate various chains, right like why don't you support 678 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: e O S, why don't you support tsos, etcetera. And 679 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: it would have been a bad idea to have supported 680 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: those things out of the gate, because you know, it 681 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: comes to the detriment of the product, right, it's just 682 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: like additional scope that you have to have to add. 683 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: It takes away from your focus. There's other chains that 684 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: are cheaper that are more compatible with the theory, um, 685 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: right that actually that that like you know, respect the interoperability, 686 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: so things like polygon, things like arbitrum, etcetera, and that 687 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: we think that that's where a lot of this like 688 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: more like, you know, low value type of activity is 689 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: going to happen. When I say low value, all I 690 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 1: mean is like you know, low dollar amount right where 691 00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: you know all of you know, if you're paying half 692 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: a milli million dollars for a crypto punk, the transaction 693 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: fee is really not something you're you're thinking about. Whereas 694 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: if you're talking about you know, and f t s 695 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: from a major brand that you are a fan of, um, 696 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: you know that activity, we see that more likely happening 697 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: on Yeah, one of these chains with cheaper fees. But yeah, 698 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: I mean we're just really big believers in the network 699 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: effects of Ethereum, which is something that I feel like 700 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: is under discussed. Yeah, I mean, all these other chains 701 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: like Salana are really starting their network effects from from zero, 702 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: which is you know, totally fine. It's just that it's 703 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: going to take a lot for these other competing platforms 704 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: to really build up the eCos the same like you 705 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: know level of ecosystem that Ethereum has, right, Like how 706 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: many Salana wallets are there? Right? Well, in the world 707 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: of Ethereum, it's like, as a user, you can choose 708 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: from ten wallets, right you know, obviously Rainbows number one, 709 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,720 Speaker 1: but you actually have a number of pretty solid alternatives, 710 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,320 Speaker 1: whereas some of these other chains, you really don't have 711 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: anything to choose from. Right, there might be only be 712 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: one platform for you know, buying and selling n f 713 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: T s, right, whereas an etherorium there's like already a 714 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: competitive you know, ecosystem. So yeah, I don't know. I 715 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: think that like big brands are attracted to some of 716 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: these other chains as well because of like their ability 717 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: to handhold them through the experience. So you mentioned before 718 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: the amount of interest that Rainbow has gotten, and I'm 719 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: curious how much interest you've gotten from venture capital and 720 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: potential funders, because like it just feels as if there's 721 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: so much money pouring into the space right now, and 722 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: it almost feels like people are keen to buy anything 723 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: related to the crypto market, um, you know, regardless of 724 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,359 Speaker 1: how well it's designed or how usable it is. So 725 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: has that been your experience, Yeah, they are very thirsty 726 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: right now. There's been a lot of attend and I 727 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: think that all of a sudden this year, people who 728 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: hadn't been paying attention realized that the stuff is real 729 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: and not going away. You know, people are you know 730 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: I got vcs in my d MS, you know, pretending 731 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: like they're willing to quit their job to come join 732 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: the Rainbow team. But then you know, halfway through the 733 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: conversation they switched it up and they're like, hey, actually, nah, 734 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,320 Speaker 1: can we invest? And I'm like, what are you talking about? 735 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean there's a lot of VC attention. 736 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: What's crazy though, is that Rainbow in particular, we had 737 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 1: very little interest from kind of the crypto o g 738 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: money right, Like the big crypto funds really didn't understand 739 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: Rainbow and broadly have like misunderstood the wallet product and 740 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: the wallet opportunity. So Rainbows raised money mostly from consumers 741 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: social investors. But yeah, I mean the space is definitely 742 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 1: heating up. I think that, like, you know, people are 743 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 1: trying to get us to raise more money right now. Um, 744 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: we're not interested. People that you know are trying to 745 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,360 Speaker 1: acquire us right now, We're not interested. But yeah, I 746 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: mean it's definitely a good time to raise money, I'd say, 747 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: so can we just go on this further? I think 748 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,479 Speaker 1: it's really interesting what you said about vcs who want 749 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: to invest pretend that they want to be employees of 750 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: Rainbow and then then they changed the conversation. Is this 751 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 1: like a sort of broader phenomenon where startups or projects 752 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: in the crypto space find themselves more starved for labor 753 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 1: than they are capital ergo the way to get your 754 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,800 Speaker 1: foot in the doors to pretend to be a worker. Honestly, 755 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: I think that this experience is pretty unique to me 756 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: because I've kind of, uh, you know, part of my 757 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: recruiting tactics has been to you know, to really turn 758 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: it into a meme. I think that that's kind of 759 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: what's happening here is you know, I do think that 760 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,840 Speaker 1: labor is the bottleneck and not capital. Honestly, there is 761 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,479 Speaker 1: an abundance of capital, most of it is undifferentiated capital. Yeah, 762 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: from you know, the labor side of things, there is 763 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: a huge talent drought UM. But more and more people 764 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: are jumping ship from fang and you know, joining the 765 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,399 Speaker 1: space um, which is really exciting. But yeah, I think 766 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: that I kind of asked for this whole, like you know, 767 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: VC trickster games. I kind of brought that upon myself 768 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,439 Speaker 1: with my recruiting memes. I was going to ask when 769 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: you tweeted that you were looking for like CIA agents 770 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: UM with psychological warfare experience because you want them to 771 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 1: be able to create high potency memes. How serious is that? 772 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I don't know. I heard Reality 773 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: Winner is out of jail or whatever, so you know 774 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,759 Speaker 1: she's looking for a job. She can hit me up. No, 775 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I think that memes are fundamental to crypto. 776 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: I think that it's honestly what keeps people involved is 777 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 1: just like it's crypto. Twitter is one of the funniest places. 778 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean we have somebody on the team 779 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: today who's title. You know, it's like our official job 780 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: offered them. Their title is memes et cetera. Right, So 781 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: it's like memes are a super vital part of building 782 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: in crypto. Um, it's essentially our flavor of marketing. Whether 783 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,920 Speaker 1: you know any CIA agent is, you know, looking to 784 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 1: leave the agency for a career change, I mean, we're 785 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: more than happy to talk. It's like, memes are a 786 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: skill you have to be good. And uh, some people 787 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,839 Speaker 1: out there playing some real good four D chess and 788 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: with the memes, and you know we respect that. Yes, 789 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 1: so if you've got the skills. So I have two questions. 790 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,239 Speaker 1: One is very short and one is a little more substitutive, 791 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: The very short one is are you sitting still on 792 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: the stalwart dot Ethan Tracy Halloway dot you do? You? Do? You? 793 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: I have both of those. Oh yeah, you said you 794 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: would send it to me, you know, Tracy, I gotta 795 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,560 Speaker 1: get my assistant to get that over to you. I'm 796 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: so sorry, but yes, I have been keeping those safe 797 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: for you guys for a long time. I knew that 798 00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: some day you would want them. Thank you. I do 799 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: want one, and I do too. The other more substantive 800 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,479 Speaker 1: question is, you know, there's this other question about Web three, 801 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 1: and I've seen people debate it, which is like, whether 802 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: all of the services that we sort of think about 803 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,360 Speaker 1: with respect to Web two will eventually be like on 804 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: a blockchain like Uber on a blockchain where it's a 805 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,879 Speaker 1: dow and there's a token and no company or Airbnb 806 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: you live a token, etcetera. Is that something that you envision? 807 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: I think in the far off future that it's definitely, 808 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, an inevitability. I think that the biggest obstacle 809 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,840 Speaker 1: there is actually regulation. Personally, I think that that stuff 810 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,720 Speaker 1: is is a little bit of a pipe dream today 811 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: for two reasons. One is technical and the second is regulatory. 812 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,640 Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of improvements needed to 813 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:49,520 Speaker 1: the tooling and infrastructure available to dows to actually enable that, um, 814 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 1: Like using a doll today is pretty clunky, um and 815 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: would not scale to the size of like you know, 816 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 1: imagine if every Uber driver wanted to vote on some 817 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: sort of company policy today, that would be really difficult 818 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,120 Speaker 1: to do via a DOW. But I think that there's 819 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: merits to the idea of new corporate structures enabled by tokens. 820 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 1: That's honestly how I've thought about this from the beginning, 821 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 1: Right It's like, there can you know, this technology can 822 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 1: honestly enable like a new renaissance in capitalism where there's 823 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: all entirely new corporate structures available to everybody. Right So, 824 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,440 Speaker 1: whether you're a small business, um, whether you're trying to 825 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: create some sort of like you know, large network like Uber, 826 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: there's advantages to the flexibility of like you know, it's 827 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:38,439 Speaker 1: like remixing your corporate structure with a click of a button, right, 828 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: Like doing that today is incredibly difficult, Like you know, 829 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: changing around how you know your corporate structure works today 830 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: is like difficult. It requires lawyers, And honestly, if you're 831 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 1: like a small business, you don't really know how to 832 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,360 Speaker 1: do that. So I think that that that is definitely 833 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,680 Speaker 1: within our future. But I think that, you know, our 834 00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: politicians don't really know how to use email today, so 835 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: I think that in reality, their knee us to be uh, 836 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's going to take some time for regulatory 837 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: clarity to happen on kind of like real world dow 838 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,240 Speaker 1: you know experiments. Mike, that was awesome. That was really fun. 839 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to having us getting our done you 840 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: handles and h thank you for coming on out. Love. 841 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 1: Thanks Mike, that was fun. Gang, Thank you. Have a 842 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: good morning GM. GM. You know, Tracy, I really like 843 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: that conversation. I was thinking about a recent episode that 844 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 1: we did with Matt Wong of Paradigm, and I do 845 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 1: kind of think that like the more compelling crypto visions 846 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,879 Speaker 1: that you hear are sort of like what I see. 847 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,280 Speaker 1: The parallels that I see is like organic and unique 848 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 1: to crypto in other words, like the models where it's like, oh, 849 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,440 Speaker 1: this is going to replace X or Y or you know, 850 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, like defy, like I don't know whether 851 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,239 Speaker 1: that's what's going to happen there. But the idea of 852 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,800 Speaker 1: just like things that are like totally new to crypto, 853 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 1: like some sort of like token gated community, even though 854 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: there's not any community that I really want to be 855 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: part of that I've seen, or something related to interesting 856 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: art with n f t s Like I have to say, 857 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 1: like the idea of like new stuff new is like 858 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,799 Speaker 1: is uh seems compelling to me, even if I don't 859 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: know what it is. Yeah, I think that's right. And also, um, 860 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: Mike's idea of like just making the Internet more fun 861 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,040 Speaker 1: once again, I think I think that's a big part 862 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: of it, because I think there are a lot of 863 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 1: people who are maybe in their thirties or late twenties now, 864 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:53,839 Speaker 1: who can remember what it was like, you know, when 865 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,319 Speaker 1: they first started going online. Um, maybe they were on 866 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 1: something like a o L or Netscape or whatever, and 867 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,319 Speaker 1: it was it was genuinely a fun time and you 868 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:09,880 Speaker 1: were discovering new things, um, chatting with new people. Remember AOL? Okay, 869 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,839 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm getting my timeline mixed up. I 870 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,920 Speaker 1: remember AOL. But anyway, I think, like, I think what's 871 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,960 Speaker 1: nice about Mike's approach and others like him is they're 872 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,759 Speaker 1: not taking it so seriously as some of the maximalists 873 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,840 Speaker 1: who are like, we're creating a brand new financial system 874 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: with its own ideology. This is about actually creating things 875 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: that people want to use. Yeah, And you know, I 876 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,240 Speaker 1: loved his point in the beginning about the difference between 877 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: the iPhone and the Windows phone, and it's like we 878 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: didn't really know, you know, it's like the first iPhone 879 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,279 Speaker 1: like didn't like there wasn't even an app store at 880 00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,920 Speaker 1: the time. But I think everybody sort of intuitively recognized 881 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,840 Speaker 1: that because of this new like highly usable phone, it 882 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,799 Speaker 1: would like open up these new possibilities, like it would 883 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,200 Speaker 1: create eight new things. And so I sort of see that, 884 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,799 Speaker 1: Like what he's saying is like if you get designed 885 00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,319 Speaker 1: right and if you um create this sort of like 886 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,239 Speaker 1: just a better experience, then maybe like these new things 887 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,239 Speaker 1: that people want to do that aren't the same as 888 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,919 Speaker 1: just like over like shrinking a spreadsheet with the Windows phone, 889 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,799 Speaker 1: like that will that will open it up in some way? Yeah, 890 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,360 Speaker 1: Or just being able to see where you're like defy 891 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,279 Speaker 1: etherorium has got to that would be useful and in 892 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,400 Speaker 1: a decentralized identity, like the idea of like you know, 893 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,880 Speaker 1: we both like sort of played around with, you know, swap. 894 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,440 Speaker 1: The idea of being able to log into an app 895 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,359 Speaker 1: with a wallet as opposed to I'm gonna like set 896 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,040 Speaker 1: up my name and password and mother's made name and 897 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,000 Speaker 1: all that stuff. The idea of just being able to 898 00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,960 Speaker 1: do that with a name or a dott Eth handle 899 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,440 Speaker 1: or a wallet is like pretty interesting and potentially it 900 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,520 Speaker 1: seems like powerful and I could see that actually appealing 901 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,680 Speaker 1: to a lot of people. Yeah, I agree. All right, Um, 902 00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,200 Speaker 1: well that was a fun conversation. So shall we leave 903 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,280 Speaker 1: it there? Yeah, that was good one. Let's leave it there. Okay. 904 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,600 Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. 905 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,719 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 906 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,399 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe wi Isn't though. You could 907 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our guest 908 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,080 Speaker 1: Mike de Murray, the co founder of Rainbow dot Me. 909 00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 1: His handle is at Mike de Murray. Follow our producer 910 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,360 Speaker 1: Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson. Follow the Bloomberg 911 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,239 Speaker 1: head of podcast Francesca Levi at Francesco Today, and check 912 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,120 Speaker 1: out all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle 913 00:52:31,600 --> 00:53:00,200 Speaker 1: at podcasts. Thanks for listening to