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Speaker 1: Eighty guys, we are back on normally the show with

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Speaker 1: normal ish takes for when the news gets weird. I

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Speaker 1: am Mary Catherine Ham.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Carol Markowitz. I'm Mary Catherine. How is your Thanksgiving?

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Speaker 1: You know it was good? Hectic. I went down to

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Speaker 1: the University of Georgia for an eight overtime win over

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Speaker 1: Isacillow Decads. Yeah, I was there from well, we tailgated

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Speaker 1: starting at three and then stayed at the game till

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Speaker 1: midnight plus so, and then I did not party downtown

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Speaker 1: because I don't do that anymore.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a mistake, clearly. At least you got the win, right,

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Speaker 2: The W's all that matters.

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Speaker 1: I have a habit of going to fairly legendary games

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Speaker 1: by accident. I didn't think that was going to be

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Speaker 1: a legendary game, but here we are. So I made

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Speaker 1: it back and now we're in the in our house.

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Speaker 1: We're in the like Christmas March because one once December

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Speaker 1: first hits. Man, we are fully booked.

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Speaker 2: I love it. Yeah. Is your tree up it? Or

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Speaker 2: is long?

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Speaker 1: Is not up? We are working on that for hopefully

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Speaker 1: by Wednesday we'll have that done.

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Speaker 2: All right, send pictures.

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Speaker 1: I will I will.

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Speaker 2: So we come back from the weekend to the news

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Speaker 2: that Joe Biden, in a surprise to absolutely no one,

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Speaker 2: pardoned his son Hunter And he didn't just pardon him

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Speaker 2: of the things that Hunter has been accused of. He

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Speaker 2: has pardoned him a blanket parden for eleven years for

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Speaker 2: crimes we may not even know about yet. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so again, that wasn't a surprise to most people, but

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Speaker 2: some people were shocked. And were you surprised?

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Speaker 1: I was, I guess, yeah, I was not surprised. I

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Speaker 1: think again. I think I've said this before, but self

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Speaker 1: regard is very blinding. And so if you believe that

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Speaker 1: your side is without issues, and you believe and you've

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Speaker 1: talked yourself into the idea that Joe Biden is the

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Speaker 1: avatar of honesty and politics, I suppose you could talk

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Speaker 1: yourself into the idea. He wasn't going to do this,

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Speaker 1: but I just didn't see how that was going to happen.

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Speaker 1: He was at least going to commute the sentence that

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Speaker 1: Hunter Biden got for his crimes, of which he was

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Speaker 1: convicted by a jury, right, and by the way, they

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Speaker 1: weren't made up statutes sort of. Frankenstein in the felonies

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Speaker 1: like Donald Trump's were they were not traditional ones. It

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Speaker 1: was like, because it turns out, Carol, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you know, but if you put like hookers in

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Speaker 1: blow on your deductions for your taxes, like I doesn't

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Speaker 1: like that. They don't like that, they don't like that.

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Speaker 2: I think of you as so like not cursing and

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Speaker 2: hookers and blow.

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Speaker 1: Sorry I went there in the beginning of the podcast.

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Speaker 2: I like it.

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Speaker 1: You sort of have to to talk about Hunter Biden, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I can't do this thing where I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: pretend that he's something he's not because that's what the

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Speaker 1: Left asks of me, and I'm not going to pretend

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Speaker 1: that I can't see exactly what was going on with

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Speaker 1: Hunter and Joe meddling influence throughout this entire thing, which

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Speaker 1: by the way, doesn't feel like vindication. This date of

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen is so interestingly exactly the time that he

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Speaker 1: joined Barisma, the Ukrainian energy company, obviously as a renowned

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian energy expert, Hunter Biden, where he got paid ludicrous

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Speaker 1: amounts of money, and we were all saying or yeah,

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Speaker 1: they were all saying, like it feels like there's something

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Speaker 1: weird going on here, and now I think we have

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Speaker 1: our answer that there's definitely something weird.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: The thing is also all these people who defended him

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Speaker 2: and said he would never pardon his son ever. That's

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Speaker 2: that's what makes our sides so special and unique and different.

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Speaker 2: It's like, just don't love politicians this much. It's not normal.

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Speaker 2: It's not normal to love politicians. I again, have lots

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Speaker 2: of politicians that I, you know, respect or admire or whatever,

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Speaker 2: but I know they're going to do things to annoy

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Speaker 2: me and piss me off and upset me and disappoint me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'll just say I was a big Sarah

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Speaker 2: Palin fan. So yeah, I've been on this wild ride.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I understand now. I think that the entire thing

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Speaker 1: is just I occasionally say that I think we're in

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Speaker 1: an abusive relationship, like an emotionally abusive relationship with the

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Speaker 1: press and Democrats. And this is yet another example where

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Speaker 1: the gaslighting is so intense from this guy who's like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, the justice system was used improperly against

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Speaker 1: my son. So I have to first of all, who's

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Speaker 1: justice system is it? You're the deal, Yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: your DOJ right, and then to the extent that it

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Speaker 1: was used improperly on Hunter Biden. It was to excuse

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Speaker 1: his crimes, it was to help him get out of them,

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Speaker 1: to pass the statute of limitations, to shut up people

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Speaker 1: who brought forth information about his crimes. And in the

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Speaker 1: end they got caught in court, the government Joe Biden's

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Speaker 1: DOJ doing a way too generous plea deal that a

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Speaker 1: judge was like, wait, run that by me again, right,

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Speaker 1: And they couldn't get away with it because of this

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Speaker 1: judge who flagged it because they tried to hand Hunter

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Speaker 1: Biden the thing that Joe Biden's been handing him his

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Speaker 1: whole life, which is a take it out of jail

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Speaker 1: free right.

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Speaker 2: So that's actually it's funny. I tweeted today about how

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Speaker 2: this kind of behavior has obviously been nothing but terrible

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Speaker 2: for Hunter Biden, and then I saw that you tweeted

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Speaker 2: something very similar to last night. I'm glad our parenting

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Speaker 2: style of lines. You can't give kids passes their whole

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Speaker 2: entire lives and then expect them to turn out Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's just not how it goes. So I think this

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Speaker 2: is the latest in the pardoning that he's gotten. This

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Speaker 2: one's a little more official than the ones he's gotten

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Speaker 2: his whole entire life from his parents. But it's just

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Speaker 2: a bad way to raise your kids, and you're going

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Speaker 2: to get a bad out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm a little uncomfortable with this line that this

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Speaker 1: is like the love of a father. No more than

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Speaker 1: a little uncomfortable with this is the love of a father,

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Speaker 1: and this is what good parents do. There's plenty to

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Speaker 1: be said for Grace. I know the prodigal Sons her story.

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Speaker 1: But as you say, Carol, the reason he's here is

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Speaker 1: because his father has bailed him out of every bad

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Speaker 1: decision at every turn his entire life, which created a

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Speaker 1: person who needed a presidential pardon. And I reject that

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Speaker 1: that is love that is helpful to your children. Yep,

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Speaker 1: it's just not, you know.

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Speaker 2: Side note to this. Over the weekend story broke that

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Speaker 2: Pete Hecss's mom send him emails while he was going

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Speaker 2: through a divorce, really criticizing his treatment of women, and

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Speaker 2: people are like, well, this is disqualifying. The mom has

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Speaker 2: said that, you know, she basically takes it back and

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Speaker 2: they have a good relationship now and all of that.

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Speaker 2: But that's actually good parenting to me, that is good parenting,

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Speaker 2: saying you are being a little dirt bag and stop that.

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Speaker 2: I think that nothing wrong with that.

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Speaker 1: Not inviting to the state dinner, like that's Hunter's right path,

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Speaker 1: right is like, Oh, you did another insanely bad thing,

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Speaker 1: probably criminal, Why don't you come on down to the

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Speaker 1: state dinner and show off that you're still close with everybody.

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Speaker 1: I do think this business relationship between the two of

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Speaker 1: them and the influence pedaling has been almost thrown in

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Speaker 1: our faces during these four years. And I should note

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Speaker 1: also that this administration started with the widespread censorship and

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Speaker 1: disinformation campaign about Hunter Biden's laptop, which dealt with all

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Speaker 1: of these issues and had evidence for all of the

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Speaker 1: crimes that he's now pardoned of, and then we're bookending

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Speaker 1: it with this pardon for eleven years of whatever crimes

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Speaker 1: could have happened. Yeah, it's dirty, man, It's obviously dirty

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Speaker 1: on its face. It is.

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Speaker 2: And there's definitely still people who want to defend him

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Speaker 2: because he's not Trump. And Nate Silver is getting a

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Speaker 2: lot of hate from other people on the left because

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Speaker 2: he's saying, no, this is not acceptable, and this is

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Speaker 2: not appropriate, and this just shouldn't be done, and all

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Speaker 2: these people are like, oh, Nate Silver sucks now and

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Speaker 2: he's just the worst. Andy Kazinski also is getting a

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Speaker 2: lot of really vile hate because you're saying this is

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Speaker 2: not acceptable and no, you know, I'm glad that they're

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Speaker 2: speaking up and saying that their side has done something wrong,

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Speaker 2: but the avalanche of comments that they're getting saying like

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Speaker 2: you should just defend Joe Biden is not that comforting

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 1: Also, look what Joe Biden did to your party his

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Speaker 1: insistence on staying in the race. Yeah, partly because he

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Speaker 1: probably sensed that he needed to pardon his son and

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Speaker 1: maybe himself at some point and maybe his brother who else? Right,

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Speaker 1: who else is coming? That destroyed their chances to win

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Speaker 1: this presidential election over Donald Trump. I'm so mad about that.

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Speaker 1: I think so Dave Portnoy, who of Barstool Sports, who

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Speaker 1: endorsed Donald Trump and isn't often super political, but he

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Speaker 1: will jump in on things that annoy him and famously

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Speaker 1: just destroyed a Washington Post reporter who tried to destroy

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Speaker 1: his pizza fest up in New York. He had a

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Speaker 1: clip that I think speaks to what's annoying people like

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Speaker 1: Nate and Andy and people like us. Here's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of him talking about it.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I thought I was done with political rants, but

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Speaker 4: I guess I got one more.

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Speaker 3: This Hunter Biden thing. It's in the news. Everyone's talking

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Speaker 3: about it. Joe Biden after and the Democrats after.

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Speaker 4: Probably saying no less than nine million, four hundred and

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Speaker 4: eighty two times unequivocally that Joe Biden would not pardon

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Speaker 4: Hunter Biden if Trump was elected.

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Speaker 3: But the president would not pardon nor commute sensor his

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Speaker 3: son Hunter if to make sure that that is not

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Speaker 3: the way to Shangefield.

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Speaker 1: The next six months the President's stage were not still

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Speaker 1: an now it's still an al always. Do you know

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Speaker 1: it's still a no. It will be a no. It

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Speaker 1: is a no. And I don't have anything else to add.

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Speaker 1: People he pardoned his son, No.

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Speaker 3: He'd have to go through the jury system. Nobody's loved

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Speaker 3: the law. Blah blah blah. What's he doing? Of course

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Speaker 3: he pardons them. Of course he does know that. It's

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Speaker 3: like for eleven years, so anything he could possibly done

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Speaker 3: in the history of time he has pardoned. For now.

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Speaker 3: I'll start by saying, if if I could do that

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Speaker 3: for a loved one, a family member. I would probably

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Speaker 3: do the same thing. I won't lie about it and

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Speaker 3: be like, yeah, I'm gonna protect my own no shit.

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Speaker 4: If Trump gets elected and they're gonna make Hunter Biden

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Speaker 4: go to court and investigate them all this, yeah I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna protect him.

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Speaker 3: But the Democrats Biden, they didn't do that. They're like, no,

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Speaker 3: what are we crazy? Now?

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Speaker 5: This is the point of this rant, and I've been

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Speaker 5: saying it over and over and over, and why the

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Speaker 5: Democrats got slaughtered in the election because they think they're

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Speaker 5: morally superior to everybody else.

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Speaker 2: That's it, That's really it. I think that people have

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Speaker 2: had enough, and a lot of the wokeness and the

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Speaker 2: cancel stuff really ties into that because they think we

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Speaker 2: are better. We will enforce your behavior, we will enforce

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Speaker 2: your speech and say that you're just not as good

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Speaker 2: as us, and so we have to tell you what

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Speaker 2: to do. So people have had it.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's bad behavior comes without the lecture, and people

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Speaker 1: that they like that better, Like they don't like being

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Speaker 1: lectured by people who are transparently dishonest jerks, Yeah, who

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Speaker 1: are violating every rule that they say that they're better

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Speaker 1: at observing and one of my favorite responses is this

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Speaker 1: idea that like, and it's animated the entire Trump era.

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Speaker 1: If you're a righteous Democrat or a Republican who's turned

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Speaker 1: into a Democrat because of Trump, your job is to

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Speaker 1: imagine the worst that Trump can do. And honestly, sometimes

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Speaker 1: he gives them rhetorical evidence for this and then use

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Speaker 1: it to justify doing a much worse version of the

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Speaker 1: thing Donald Trump is that he will do or that

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Speaker 1: you think he might. This is bad behavior and I'm

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Speaker 1: really sick of hearing about it from them.

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Speaker 2: That's really it. They just you know, yeah, pretend that

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Speaker 2: he's going to do something, then they do worst that

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Speaker 2: you nailed it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I mean, that's what Russiagate was, Like, I

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Speaker 1: can imagine that Trump would do this dastardly thing. Now,

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Speaker 1: let's create a situation where we bake a bunch of evidence. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the hunter Biden's laptop is over here being very real. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: while are we told its misinformation? The whole thing is dirty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's going to be four years of this kind

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Speaker 2: of thing though. They're not going to stop, I don't think. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we will see, we'll see how it goes. But I

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Speaker 2: don't think any lessons have been learned. We've talked about

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Speaker 2: that on here before. I don't see a lot of

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Speaker 2: change or introspection. Like I said, a lot of comments

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Speaker 2: are saying, why aren't we defending Joe Biden from this?

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Speaker 1: So, you know, looking forward to four years of this,

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Speaker 1: I know, I shudder to think what they're cooking up.

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Speaker 1: As they did Russia Gate, I think people are a

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Speaker 1: lot more wary of it. I think, yeah, we've reached

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Speaker 1: the limits of them just being like ew, that's bad. Right,

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Speaker 1: people react to it, and I don't think that's gonna

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Speaker 1: work anymore, like, oh, that's traitorous. Okay, we're gonna we're

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Speaker 1: gonna take a minute to figure out what's actually going

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Speaker 1: on here.

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Speaker 2: I hope you might not be a Russian spy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, my gosh, the number of times I said that

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Speaker 1: on CNN and was looked at like I had a

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Speaker 1: third eyeball. It's like, I don't think you guys are

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Speaker 1: onto a thing here. I don't think this is real.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back on normally, all right.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of trust and government, Donald Trump has made some

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Speaker 1: more appointments, one of which is quite splashy. Cash Pattel

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Speaker 1: to the head of the FBI. Now, this would have

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Speaker 1: been the only story this week, Carol, had Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: not pardoned this son Hunter Biden. And I bet that

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Speaker 1: the people who are lamenting, who are sort of begrudgingly

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Speaker 1: lamenting Joe Biden doing that, are annoyed that they can't

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Speaker 1: just lambast Cash Btel all day, because now Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: has given Cash Btel and Donald Trump the very reason

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Speaker 1: to say, yeah, we need a skull crusher at the FBI,

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Speaker 1: and this is why he's going there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I have to say that I've been

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Speaker 2: reading up on Cash Hotel. I did not know a

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Speaker 2: lot about him, but a lot of people in my

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Speaker 2: life who I wouldn't imagine would be thrilled about this

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Speaker 2: appointment are very happy about it. Kind of who I

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Speaker 2: consider not moderates, but maybe just like very calm, sane

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Speaker 2: conservatives are saying, this is someone who is very smart

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Speaker 2: and can do a really good job at shaking up

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Speaker 2: an organization that needs it. So, Yeah, I think that

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Speaker 2: it's interesting that they stepped all over the Cash Totel story.

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Speaker 2: It's also interesting this constantly this feeling of like how

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Speaker 2: many of these appointments. Are the Democrats going to be

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Speaker 2: able to persuade Republican senators to vote down? And I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know how many that's going to be.

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Speaker 2: I know that not all the appointments need Senate confirmation,

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Speaker 2: but the ones that do, it's interesting because they can't

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Speaker 2: both them all down, right, that's probably not going to happen.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, yeah, I'm open minded. I think the

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Speaker 1: FBI quite obviously has some very big issues with politicization.

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Speaker 1: We've seen it over and over again, and no matter

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Speaker 1: how much Biden gaslights me, I understand what's happening over there,

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Speaker 1: and I do think it needs reform. And so I

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Speaker 1: want to hear from him, and I want him to

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Speaker 1: be asked tough questions and all the things that you

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Speaker 1: do during confirmation. But I think again, we've reached the

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Speaker 1: limit of just the Washington establishment being.

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Speaker 2: Like this person's a clown, We are dying.

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Speaker 1: They don't know. We're not doing that anymore. And cash

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Speaker 1: Hotel can be there to answer questions, he can be vetted. Sure,

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Speaker 1: one thing I do if you think is interesting about this,

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Speaker 1: He's like, I don't know if you saw the mini

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Speaker 1: mini dust up about the Donald Trump admit or transition

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Speaker 1: might not let the FBI vet its candidates, and I

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Speaker 1: maybe we talked about this. You can vet them other ways.

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Speaker 1: Other people can vet them, private entities can invent them.

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Speaker 1: Why would the Trump administration or incoming Trump administration trust

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Speaker 1: the FBI to do this. I literally spied on them

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Speaker 1: last time. Yeah, under false pretenses. So yeah, the inserns

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Speaker 1: are warranted, yes, But Patel was He was a public defender.

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Speaker 1: At one point. He was the chief of staff of

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Speaker 1: the U S Secretary of Defense during the first Trump presidency.

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Speaker 1: He served in the National Security Council and a senior

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Speaker 1: advisor to the acting Director of National Intelligence. So he's got,

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Speaker 1: you know, some things there. He has not been an

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Speaker 1: FBI agent, which is traditionally the path. But again, I

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Speaker 1: don't think people are looking for traditional paths right from

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Yep, they're done with that. They're done with like this

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Speaker 2: is the guy who's next in line, so he has

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Speaker 2: to take this role. I think that they've seen some

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Speaker 2: really bad things from those bureaucrats, so everybody expects to

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Speaker 2: take the position in the last four years, and I

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Speaker 2: don't know, I think they elected Donald Trump to not

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Speaker 2: be that guy, and he's very much not being that guy.

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Speaker 1: And they're also going to have a little tizzy. So

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Speaker 1: it just should preview it over the idea that Chris Ray,

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Speaker 1: who is the current FBI director, he either has to

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Speaker 1: resign or be fired.

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Speaker 2: He's going to be hired.

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Speaker 1: I think it's and like Trump might end up having

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Speaker 1: to fire him. And I just want to assure everyone that, yes,

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Speaker 1: the FBI director has a ten year term. It was

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Speaker 1: put in in order to prevent the hooverism of the FBI,

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Speaker 1: so that someone serves for a long time. It's supposed

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Speaker 1: to it's supposed to detach you from politicization. Yet I

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Speaker 1: think we see that that maybe didn't work out great.

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Speaker 1: And the president has a right to appoint people. That's

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Speaker 1: what happens when you get elected. Chris Ray was not elected,

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Speaker 1: that's right, but Donald Trump was. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So since our last episode, there's been a bunch of nominations,

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Speaker 2: and I think the one that we were really excited about,

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Speaker 2: though we haven't discussed don here yet, I think we

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Speaker 2: were hoping. But Jay Badashara is going to the NIH

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Speaker 2: and that's just huge. It's really karma in action. But

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Speaker 2: also he's just such a fantastic guy, and I think

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Speaker 2: he's going to do so great there. I think he

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Speaker 2: will bring trust back to an organization that desperately needs it.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think that that's probably I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think you tweeted it. It's your favorite pick. I think

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Speaker 2: it's you know, top three of mine as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very excited. It's poetic for him to go

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Speaker 1: to the organization who's head at the time, Francis Collins

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Speaker 1: and in a concert with Anthony Fauci, worked to smear

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Speaker 1: him publicly for being part of the Great Barrington Declaration.

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Speaker 1: And the Great Barrington Declaration was just like a very

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Speaker 1: simple truth speaking idea that was like, hey, I think

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Speaker 1: we'd be better off if we didn't deprive a bunch

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Speaker 1: of Americans of their freedom and focused our protection on

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Speaker 1: older people who are more vulnerable to this disease.

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Speaker 2: All right, things are part super Saiyane right now. To

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Speaker 2: everybody except Taylor Lorenz. Pretty much, she's a for those

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Speaker 2: who don't know, the Washington Post columnist who's tweeted today

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Speaker 2: that she's spending thousands of dollars on a book party

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Speaker 2: to keep it COVID safe. In December twenty twenty four

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Speaker 2: you got tests to go, Yeah, you got it, and

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Speaker 2: the rest of us are just what did she say,

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Speaker 2: like willy nilly breathing the air. I don't remember the

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Speaker 2: exact language, but it was something like that.

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Speaker 1: It was dirtier than that. But I've already gone dirty

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Speaker 1: once in this podcast, so I won't do it again. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to see him there. He's the kind of

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Speaker 1: reformer that I appreciate. He's less of a bomb thrower.

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Speaker 1: He's a very smart, respected person. He's sort of astoundingly

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Speaker 1: mild mannered for what he went through. He's been like

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Speaker 1: sort of unfailingly kind to his critics, which I know

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Speaker 1: is like sometimes not the thing that my mega friends

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Speaker 1: are looking for, but amazing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I think sometimes you need to lay

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Speaker 2: the back down, but he is. I like that he

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Speaker 2: does it in a very thoughtful, calm manner.

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Speaker 1: He does still lay this back down.

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Speaker 2: It's just not you know, he doesn't curse or anything.

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Speaker 1: But like, if you're if you're if you're building my

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Speaker 1: kind of reformer ideal, that's more in line with it

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Speaker 1: than a cashptel. Although I am, as I said, open

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Speaker 1: minded to hear from it. So so the other.

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Speaker 2: Pick that I don't know. I'm kind of mixed on

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Speaker 2: this one, but Chad Kronister for head of the DEA

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Speaker 2: and the way the reason I'm mixed on it is

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Speaker 2: because Ron DeSantis came out and defended him, and I,

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Speaker 2: you know, generally trust Ron de Santis, but like I

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Speaker 2: said earlier in the episode, I don't love politicians and

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Speaker 2: they make mistakes sometime. Connistuur is known for he arrested

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Speaker 2: a pasture during the COVID, you know, the beginning of COVID,

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Speaker 2: and I just think, you know, unless you've apologized, unless

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Speaker 2: you have you know, had some sort of like awakening

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Speaker 2: where you realize that what you did was really wrong,

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Speaker 2: and if you have that, I'd like to hear about that.

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Speaker 2: I just I kind of don't have a lot of

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Speaker 2: grace for those people again unless they apologize and see

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Speaker 2: what they did wrong and are contrite about it. But

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Speaker 2: if you're arresting a pastor, I just don't want to

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Speaker 2: see you achieve, you know, further prominence in any role.

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Speaker 1: Really yeah, to me, the COVID bad behavior and like

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Speaker 1: depriving people there's civil liberties over an infectious disease is

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Speaker 1: a signal yep, that under even mild to medium pressure,

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Speaker 1: you might be willing to do the same again, and

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Speaker 1: you need to repent before I believe that you might

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Speaker 1: not do that.

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Speaker 2: That's really it. So I don't know why DeSantis. I

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Speaker 2: think maybe they have a good working personal relationship or whatever.

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Speaker 1: He's a sheriff in ways in Florida, but.

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Speaker 2: I don't know exactly where. But apparently has been kind

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Speaker 2: of helpful to DeSantis in other ways when they got

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Speaker 2: rid of the Soros back prosecutor. But nevertheless, I am

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Speaker 2: not as forgiving, so or again I am as forgiving

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Speaker 2: I am, but let me hear some contrash.

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Speaker 1: You got to have remorse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'm a talk forgiveness. Right, going

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Speaker 2: to take a short break and come right back with normally.

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Speaker 1: Shall we talk about the dating scene?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, let's talk about the dating scene? Sorry happened?

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Speaker 2: Whose fault was it that Trump got elected?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you know, it's the men's fault. It's

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Speaker 1: always the men's fault, Carol. And as a podcast of

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Speaker 1: ladies that is nonetheless a fan of men.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we like the men.

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Speaker 1: We did want to talk about this. This is a

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Speaker 1: New York Times opinion piece how our messed up dating

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Speaker 1: culture leads to loneliness, anger, and Donald Trump. Sarah Burnstein

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Speaker 1: is the author. It's very long, by the way, but

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Speaker 1: I'm going to give you the thesis at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan elon Musk representatives of pro culture are on

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Speaker 1: the ascent, bringing with them an army of disaffected young men.

433
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: But where did they come from? Many argue that a

434
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 1: generation of men are resentful because they have fallen behind

435
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 1: women in work, in school. I believe this shift would

436
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: not have been so destabilizing were it not for the

437
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: fact that our society still has one glass slippered foot

438
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 1: in the world of Cinderella, by which she means that

439
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: men men are falling behind on all of these metrics.

440
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: And she does lay that out educational attainment, their general

441
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: happiness in life, the economic opportunities for them, and yet

442
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 1: our culture does nothing but girl power. She's saying, the

443
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: real problem is that women haven't let go of their

444
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: desire to date a more successful man and marry a

445
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: more successful man.

446
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 2: Right, So I actually read this article as she's blaming women.

447
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 2: I know it's supposed to be a pro woman article,

448
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: but she ends up arguing that women should lower their standards.

449
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 2: I don't know. She writes that women should quote let

450
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: go of the male breadwinner norm. I mean, you know

451
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 2: who would be thrilled with that? Men? Men would be thrilled.

452
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 2: You know, the idea that men are like just dying

453
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: to like support and to be the sole breadwinner. It's

454
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: just come on, it's just not true.

455
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 1: Well, and I think part of the part of the

456
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: issue with Democrats is that throughout this campaign they revealed,

457
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: and for throughout the last ten years, they revealed that

458
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: they don't much care for men. So she's like going

459
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: on this long journey to explain why men didn't vote

460
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: for Kamala Harris really, because that's like her actual concern

461
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: is that they get in line and do that. But

462
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: if you tell them that you don't like them over

463
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: and over again and that they're toxic and they're the

464
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: problem with everything, they don't want to hang out with you.

465
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: I don't understand why they have trouble understanding that.

466
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: It's also funny that she opens it with Elon Musk

467
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: and Joe Rogan, two extremely like wildly beyond all measure

468
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: successful men, only to then talk about men who don't

469
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 2: succeed It's like, make the connection for me, just that

470
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 2: they're men, that's.

471
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 1: It, Like, yeah, you know, so they're just they're just

472
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: like I mean, that's part of it is that they

473
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: are just a picture of things. She vaguely doesn't like,

474
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 1: right because actually Elon Musk and Joe Rogan are quite

475
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 1: different people, hugely different people in hugely different fields. But

476
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: she's like ew.

477
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 2: Right, yeah yeah, And then she's like and these these

478
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: men also, yeah, they count bone gpt on X, which

479
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: is where I saw the story in the first place,

480
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: points out that the article basically does blame women for

481
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 2: Trump's selection, and he says, quote, is women cause Donald

482
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: Trump to happen by doing too well after getting rights

483
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 2: and still demanding marry up? And this is the New

484
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 2: York Times. Like she thinks she's making a pro woman

485
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: argument here. I just don't see it.

486
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: And I also love the idea that women have succeeded more.

487
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: We shouldn't make sure that men have equal opportunities. We

488
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: should just get women to go. I guess I'll just

489
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: throw my hands up and marry whomever right well, because

490
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: it makes them itch to think about doing anything to

491
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: make sure that men succeed. They don't like that idea

492
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: at all.

493
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's not the solution, Mary Catherine.

494
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: No.

495
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: By the way, one of the things that I keep

496
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: telling liberal friends who might be concerned about the young

497
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: men and the fact that they went right, is if

498
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: indeed we have an entire generation of disaffected young men,

499
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: who whose adolescence or early adulthood was destroyed by COVID insanity,

500
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: who spend a lot of time online, who are maybe

501
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: a little bit underemployed, who didn't go to college, all

502
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: these things that might lead them not to be engaged

503
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: in society. If they remain disengaged, that's bad for all

504
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: of us. You know what's good for us If they

505
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: make their disaffection known by voting for a candidate free election.

506
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: That is an extremely healthy way. Yeah, like, I think

507
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: I think we're actually on the right track. But because

508
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 1: they didn't engage by voting for Kamala Harris, right, still

509
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: scary and bad. Yeah.

510
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's really something that The New York Times

511
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: has now decided that women need to just settle and,

512
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 2: you know, marry one of these losers and make them

513
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: vote for the right person next side.

514
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: That sounds like such a bad recipe for both the

515
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: women and the man, like exact that, Yeah, letting go

516
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: of the male breadwinner norm is not an instant fixed

517
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: for our culture, but we can't move forward without that step.

518
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: After all, breadwinner is not only a limiting identity, it's

519
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: also a relative one. If we don't release men from

520
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: the expectation, any plan to help them regain lost ground

521
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: will have to also ensure that women never catch up.

522
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 2: And then then there was the line in there that

523
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: was like, men are only comfortable, according to studies when

524
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 2: a woman makes forty percent of what they make. And

525
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: my husband sent me that and was like, I can

526
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: put aside my pride and you could make two hundred

527
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: percent of what I make.

528
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: I'll be happy to study aside. Also, I do. I

529
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: think the idea that the New York Times can't engage

530
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: with is that it might be okay for women to

531
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: want someone who's more successful, That they might want to

532
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: not be in a traditional working role, That they might

533
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: want to have what they're doing at home supported by

534
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: someone who is capable of breadwinning. Like a lot of

535
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: people want that.

536
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can't go there, obviously, that would be a

537
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: bridge too far. No, they're gonna get instead, they're gonna

538
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: concoct this whole other society.

539
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a pathology that you might have a

540
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: dude out making money and his wife at home taking

541
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: care of the house. I don't, I know, wild and crazy.

542
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays

543
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 2: and Thursdays, and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts.

544
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: Get in touch with us at normallythepod at gmail dot com.

545
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: We love hearing from you. Thanks for listening, and when

546
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: things get weird at normally