1 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, this is Lee clasgaw when We're Talking Transports. 2 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast. I'm your host, 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Lee Klaskow, Senior Freight, Transportation and Logistics analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence, 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's in house research arm of almost five hundred analysts 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: and strategists around the globe. Before diving in a little 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: public service announcement, your support is instrumental to keep bringing 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: great guests and conversations to you, our listeners, and we 8 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: need your support. So please, if you enjoy this podcast, 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: share it, like it, and leave a comment. Also, if 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: you have any ideas for a future episode or just 11 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: want to talk transports, please hit me up on the 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: Bloomberg terminal, on LinkedIn or on Twitter at Logistics. Lee. 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: Now onto our episode I'm very excited to have with 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: us today. Robin Kazski a partner at the law firm 15 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: Locke Gordon. Robin represents corporations including Fortune five hundred companies, 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: self insured, transportation and insurance companies in various matters. With 17 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: nearly twenty years of trial and litigation experience, Robin has 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: tried multimillion dollar cases to verdict in state and Federal Courts. 19 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Talking Transports podcast. 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: Robin, Good morning, Lee. Thanks so much for having me 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: on today. 22 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 3: So one of the main reasons why I want to 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 3: have you on is, you know, to talk about nuclear 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 3: verdicts and all the things that have been going on 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 3: in transportation. But before we talk about that, why don't 26 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 3: you give us a little more color about Lockgardon and 27 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 3: your practice. 28 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 29 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: Absolutely so. I've actually been with Lock Gordon at this 30 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: point in time since about twenty twenty one. We all 31 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 2: of us really hail from I would say, Big Law, right. 32 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: We all come the founding partners and then the attorneys 33 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: that have come on kind of since then. We all 34 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: come from Big Law. But I think everyone got to 35 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: this point point where they decided that was just not 36 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: where they wanted to be anymore. We wanted to be 37 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: more of a boutique law firm, right, We wanted to 38 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: be able to focus and give very individualized attention to 39 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: our clients, and so they left Big Law started this 40 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: firm in twenty twenty one. I came on shortly thereafter, 41 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 2: and at this point it's really you know, there's about 42 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: ten of us attorneys, including the recent addition of two 43 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: additional associates in our Ohio office, with another attorney joining 44 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: our Pennsylvania office in the next two weeks. So we 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: are definitely growing, but I don't think that the plan 46 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: is for us to just continue to grow into another 47 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: one of these larger law firms that all of us 48 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: have come from in the past. That said, you know, 49 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: the goal here was to work with a group of 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: people where we really all just wanted to be around 51 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: one another. And that might seem hokey, but quite honestly, 52 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: it's just it's just true. You have a group of 53 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: attorneys all with an incredible amount of experience trying cases, 54 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: helping clients, whether it's from the inception of something occurring, 55 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 2: seeing it all the way through to trials and appeals, 56 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: and you just have a group that's willing to lean 57 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: on each other, you know, in and out on an 58 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: everyday basis. 59 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 4: And I know you've been a defense attorney for a 60 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 4: lot of trucking and transportation names. 61 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: Can you just talk about your experience doing that? 62 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely? So, I didn't start off as a transportation attorney. 63 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: I'm actually a former criminal defense attorney, and that was 64 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: kind of where I thought I would be. All this 65 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: time going forward, but I would say things changed in 66 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: about two thousand and nine or so. I wound up 67 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: leaving criminal law and moving on to civil practice, and 68 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: I wound up joining a firm in a group that 69 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: was handling primarily commercial motor vehicle accidents and representation of 70 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 2: whether it was self insured trucking companies or insurance companies 71 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: and their insurance. And you know, I think you quickly 72 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: realize that this is a pretty niche area, and it's 73 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: kind of this tight knit family. And although there are 74 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: transportation attorneys obviously at many firms right throughout the areas 75 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: that we all practice in, and I personally am am Pennsylvania, 76 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: New York, and New Jersey, but my partners are actually nationwide. 77 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 2: You know, you just realize this is a, like I said, 78 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 2: a close knit community. And so I've been doing this 79 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 2: since about two thousand and nine, representing self insurance and 80 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: insurance companies and their insurance in commercial litigation, whether it's 81 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: catastrophic loss, whether it's you know, subrogation claims, whether it's 82 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 2: property damage, whether it's you know, anything having to do 83 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: with with downtime or any thing that really comes up 84 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: in the trucking and transportation industry. You know that said, 85 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: we obviously do more at our firm. It's all forms 86 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: of commercial litigation. We handle employment law. There's really a 87 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: little a little bit of everything. 88 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure you're going to name names here, 89 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: but some of your clients are some of the publicly 90 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: traded companies and some I'm assuming small. 91 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: Smaller firms absolutely ranges from the mom and pop trucking 92 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: company might have one truck, might have two trucks too. 93 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 2: While I won't name names, I will say we do 94 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: represent the one of the world's largest package delivery companies 95 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: at least by revenue. 96 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: That is okay, all right, great, And so, like I 97 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, you know, I wanted to have you on 98 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: because I know you're you're involved, and you have to 99 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: deal with what's called nuclear verdicts. They sound scary and 100 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: deadly because nuclears in the name. Can you just talk 101 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: tell us, like, you know, what is a nuclear verdict? 102 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: How did we get to these types of verdicts and 103 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: kind of how do you defend against them? 104 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 2: Sure? Absolutely so. Look, nuclear verdicts are most commonly known 105 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: to all of us in the industry as verdicts that 106 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: are in excess of ten million dollars. Now, that said, 107 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 2: you know, interestingly, when I was talking to one of 108 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 2: my partners last week, you know, the term nuclear verdict 109 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 2: can be a little bit misleading, right. Obviously, ten million 110 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: dollars is a lot of money, and nuclear certainly indicates 111 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: that it is something out of the norm. And that 112 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: is the case, right, it is out of the norm 113 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: a ten ten million dollar plus verdict. That said, you know, 114 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: sometimes context is everything. My husband would laugh. I think 115 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 2: that's like my mantra in life, right, context really is everything. 116 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: But I only say that to point out if you 117 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: have a case where you know, past medical expenses or 118 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 2: something like that, or twenty two million dollars, well, suddenly 119 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: a verdict of ten million, right would be would be 120 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: a win. That said, nuclear verdicts as we know them, 121 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 2: being ten million dollar verdicts are higher, are certainly on 122 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: the rise. And so you know, I thought, obviously for 123 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: everyone listening and my husband being a numbers guy, I 124 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: think numbers are just good for everyone, everyone as a 125 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: point of comparison. So I pulled some statistics just so 126 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: everybody can have a little bit of point of comparison. 127 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 2: So if you look up some of the statistics for 128 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: nuclear verdicts. In twenty twenty three, there are about eighty 129 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: nine verdicts in access of ten million dollars. There are 130 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: twenty seven verdicts in access of one hundred million dollars, 131 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: There are eight verdicts in access of five hundred million dollars, 132 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: and two verdicts in excess of one billion dollars, otherwise 133 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: known as a thermonuclear verdict. That said, if you jump 134 00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 2: to twenty twenty four, suddenly the eighty nine verticts in 135 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: access of ten million becomes one hundred and thirty nine 136 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: verdicts in excess of ten million dollars, which is a 137 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: fifty two percent increase from twenty twenty three. Your twenty 138 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: seven verdicts in access of one hundred million dollars suddenly 139 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: becomes forty nine verdicts in access of one hundred million dollars. 140 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, your eight verdicts in excess of 141 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: five hundred million dollars becomes forty nine verdicts in access 142 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 2: of five hundred million, and your two verdicts in access 143 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 2: of one billion dollars becomes five verdicts in access of 144 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: one billion dollars. So it is very clear that the 145 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: numbers are growing, and they are, They're just getting higher 146 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: at such an exponential rate. It's crazy. And when you 147 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: look at the top states for nuclear vertics, you have 148 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: Texas coming in first, you have California coming in second, 149 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: and you have my home state of Pennsylvania coming in third. 150 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: The only reason why Florida has even been sort of 151 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: knocked down to number ten on that list is because 152 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: of tort reform. And then I'm happy to give you 153 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 2: some you know, some some examples. I mean, we hear 154 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: these numbers and they just sound like, I mean, quite 155 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: honestly monopoly numbers. 156 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 3: Right. 157 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: You have again my home state and the number one 158 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: judicial hellhole, Philadelphia County. Super awesome for US. October twenty 159 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: twenty three, there's a product liability case against Mitsubishi Motors 160 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 2: and it is a nearly one billion dollar verdict. I mean, 161 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: the these numbers just sound absolutely preposterous. Right. You have 162 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: Wabash National. There's a verdict of four hundred and sixty 163 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: two million dollars following a two thousand and nineteen crash. 164 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 2: Now it's important when you take some of these really 165 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: really large verdicts and you say, well, what was going 166 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: What was going on there? Right? What's the breakdown in 167 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: terms of compensatory damage in terms of punitive damages? You 168 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: want to know what component of that was pain and 169 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: suffering versus what component of that are things like medical 170 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: expenses or lost wages? You know, I think we see 171 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 2: some of these really big verdicts or like you might 172 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: have heard about some of the roundup verdicts that are 173 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: coming out of states like Pennsylvania and Georgia, and these 174 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: are multi billion dollar verdicts. Now, you hear about these numbers, 175 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: what you don't necessarily hear about then, is what happens 176 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 2: after the jury renders that verdict, right, meaning is it 177 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 2: going up on appeal? Does it settle at some point 178 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: in time after the appeal? Did a judge do what 179 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: is called mold the verdict for one reason or the other. 180 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 2: But you have these numbers that just sound so astronomical, 181 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: and I think it's really important for us to sort 182 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: of understand. You take these numbers, you understand them, you 183 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: hear them, but it's like, what was really going on 184 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: in some of these individual cases, right? And how how 185 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: did we get there? And I think that when we 186 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: are asked all the time. Okay, well, why are nuclear 187 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: verdicts growing? Why is this trend continuing to grow? Why 188 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 2: are you know, the numbers going up by you know, 189 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 2: fifty two percent in you know, in twenty twenty four 190 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 2: and compared to twenty twenty three. I don't think that 191 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: anyone will tell you that it is tied to any 192 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,719 Speaker 2: one particular reason. It is probably due to a confluence 193 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 2: of various different factors. Right. You might just have good 194 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 2: old fashioned good lawyering. I mean, let's give credit where 195 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: credit is due. Right, you have plaintiffs attorneys that are 196 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: working their halls off to weave creative stories and to 197 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 2: constantly take advantage of what they are seeing their colleagues do. 198 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: That is working in one courtroom, maybe not in another. 199 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: They are doing a fantastic job of playing on jurors emotions. Right, 200 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: The probably the largest motivators in high verdicts are anger 201 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: and fear. Okay, well, how do you stoke anger and 202 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,479 Speaker 2: fear in the minds of the jurors when the laws 203 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: in all the states very clearly say not supposed to 204 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 2: render a verdict just because of sympathy or emotions, or 205 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: anger or fear whatnot. Well, but then there have to 206 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 2: be other ways to do it. So plaintiffs lawyers are 207 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: using things like the reptile theory, okay, and the reptile 208 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 2: theory is a way for them to make jurors feel 209 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: scared it, you know, show them that there is a 210 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: danger here that this company or entity is sort of 211 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: putting out there to the public. And they almost want 212 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: to move away from whatever the individual incident accident is 213 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: that maybe was the subject matter of the case, and 214 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: they want to make it broader, right, So reptile theory 215 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: is a great way for them to think, you should 216 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: be scared. This company is dangerous, and this is what 217 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: they're doing, and this is why it's dangerous, and this 218 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: is why you need you need to punish this company. 219 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: You have other things like the use of anchoring, and 220 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: for your listeners that don't have any idea what anchoring 221 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: might be. This is based on a psychological premise of 222 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: giving a number, giving a number to the jury as 223 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: early as possible. So you have plaintiffs lawyers that are 224 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 2: doing a fantastic job of putting out numbers, these very 225 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: very large numbers to the jury panel, whether it's literally 226 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: at the beginning of Wader, which is when they're questioning 227 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 2: the jurors to determine who might sit on a panel 228 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 2: through potentially opening statements, through potentially witness testimony, and then 229 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 2: again in closing. So they're going to give them this 230 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: really high number so that when this number is put 231 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: out there, whether it's ten million, twenty million, five hundred million, 232 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: one billion, the number is there, right, And the idea 233 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: is the jurors are going to hear that number. They're 234 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 2: going to hear it early, and they're going to come 235 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: back to it when they are actually sitting in deliberations 236 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: and now and now talking about what you know, what 237 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: to do. You might have the judiciary. Quite honestly, that's 238 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: coming into play here. And what do I mean the judiciary, Well, 239 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: if you go back and you look at all of 240 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 2: these individual cases where we have these nuclear verdicts, and 241 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: I think also just in port or to clarify, you know, 242 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: when we talk about nuclear verdicts, we're talking about when 243 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: the number of damages, the amount of damages assessed is 244 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 2: so disproportionate to the actual like economic damages. Okay, what 245 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 2: is a person's past medical expenses? What literally the medical 246 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: treatment that they have to you know, pay for a 247 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: cost or the insurance company or whatnot. What was the 248 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: amount of the lost wages? What is the amount of 249 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: lost income? Maybe in the future when that number might 250 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: be x, But then the amount of damages that a 251 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: jury awards for pain and suffering is suddenly ten times 252 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: X or twenty times X or fifty times X. Right, 253 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 2: that's more what we're talking about when we see nuclear verdicts. 254 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: But going back to if you were to really take 255 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: a hard look at those individual cases where a nuclear 256 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: verdict came in or or a thermonuclear verdict came in, 257 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: you'd want to see what was going on in that 258 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: particular case. What was it that very specifically made the 259 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: jurors potentially angry or scared? Was it a ruling by 260 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: the judiciary, that's where the judiciary might come in, right, evidence? 261 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: What evidence came in? Did something come in in that 262 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: particular case that really stoked the emotions of the juror 263 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: that was potentially very prejudicial, that was over the objections, 264 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: let's say, of defense counsel that was really inflammatory. And 265 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: if that evidence had not come in, would you really 266 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: have been in a situation where that nuclear verdict might 267 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 2: have been rendered or not? So you have things, like 268 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: I said, you know, the reptile theory, factoring in really 269 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: good storytelling and creativity by the plane of spar you 270 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: have rulings potentially by the judges on what evidence you 271 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: know comes in or doesn't come in. And then I 272 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: would be remiss not to mention advertising. Right. Advertising has 273 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: become huge, and it's been a fantastic way I think 274 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 2: for plaintiffs lawyers to really normalize these giant numbers. I mean, 275 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: every time we're in the car with our kids and 276 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 2: we're driving down to the Jersey Shore, I can think 277 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 2: of a very specific stretch of highway that we're always 278 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 2: on and it's just billboard, billboard, billboard, billboard, billboard, right, 279 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 2: and they And the best is my kids even know 280 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 2: the names of some of these firms and the advertise 281 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: they spend millions of dollars on advertising, right, one one 282 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: million dollar verdict, ten million dollar verdict, one hundred million 283 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: dollar verdict. Well, in reality us seeing that, right, the 284 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 2: average person, just seeing that on a billboard, it's normalizing 285 00:17:54,400 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: these these giant, crazy astronomical numbers, right. So they and 286 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 2: it almost ties in I think a little bit to 287 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: anchoring right there. The plaintiffs lawyers in a courtroom are 288 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: prepping the jurors to hear about these very large numbers. Well, 289 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 2: the advertising billboards makes it look like that's the norm. 290 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 2: That is what they are going to do for their clients. 291 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 2: If you hire them, you're going to get a million dollar, 292 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 2: you're going to get a ten million dollar, You're going 293 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 2: to get one hundred million dollar verdict if you use 294 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: our law firm. So I think advertising has just become 295 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 2: absolutely huge in probably the last decade or so. And 296 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,719 Speaker 2: I don't mean to keep talking, but this is something 297 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: I could probably spend six hours on, which I know 298 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: we don't have the time for today. 299 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, one of the reasons why it's 300 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 3: so important for folks that aren't chucking because it increases 301 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 3: their insurance costs. They have higher claims, and then you 302 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 3: know they're going to need to increase rates to you know, 303 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 3: get a certain return on capital, so they keep on 304 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 3: reinvesting their equipment. So it does have a knock on 305 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 3: effect not only to the trucking companies, but also to 306 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 3: shippers and consumers as well. 307 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: So you know, it has become inflationary. And can you 308 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: give maybe an example. 309 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 4: Of you know one of these verdicts where there was 310 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 4: a true disconnect between the guilt or the liability of 311 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 4: the carrier versus you know what was awarded. 312 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 2: Sure, So, I mean look going back to you know 313 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: some of these some of these cases, I mean when 314 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: you think about so we have the case even maybe 315 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: from October twenty twenty three, okay, which was in Philadelphia County. 316 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 2: It's Mitsubishi Motors nearly a one billion dollar verdict for 317 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 2: a faulty seat belt design. Okay, this is one person 318 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 2: that winds up dying as a result of this accident, 319 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 2: which is off right. It's said, there's no human being 320 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: in this world that's going to tell you that that 321 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: is not tragic. Right, These are these are accidents. No 322 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 2: one is intending for these things to happen. But that said, 323 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 2: when you look at what the breakdown is of the verdict, okay, 324 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: which was nine hundred and seventy six million dollars, the 325 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 2: breakdown of the verdict was one hundred and seventy six 326 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: point five million dollars in compensatory damages. And compensatory damages 327 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 2: are supposed to put the person back in the condition 328 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 2: that person was prior to the accident, But then you 329 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 2: have eight hundred million dollars in punitive damages. That is 330 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: a wopping discrepancy, right, a wopping discrepancy in those two 331 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,719 Speaker 2: in those two numbers, which is why it's obviously now 332 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: on appeal to the Pennsylvania Superior Court and they're trying 333 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 2: to move for a new trial. But then when you 334 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 2: have you just you have other cases. You you have 335 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 2: in Georgia there was a Schneider National case forty seven 336 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 2: million dollar verdict for a fatal crash. Again, you have 337 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 2: one individual that passed away as a result of that accident. 338 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: Now you know about more notable cases, you know, like 339 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 2: for example, let's say you know the Tracy Morgan case. 340 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: And when you I think talk to lay people about well, 341 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 2: why why do these numbers become so big? And how 342 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 2: do you calculate damages? I think the average person doesn't 343 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 2: really understand what goes into our day to day when 344 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 2: we're talking about how to compute damages and well, okay, 345 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: why does forty seven million dollars sound so incredibly high 346 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 2: for you know, an accident that might have involved let's 347 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 2: say one one fatality And it's like, well, when you 348 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: have somebody like a celebrity, okay, and you and a 349 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: plaintiff's attorney can get up in front of a jury 350 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: and talk about how high those numbers should be because 351 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: this is how much money he was earning, and this 352 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 2: is how much money maybe he can't earn going forward. 353 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 2: That is not the norm, which is why when you 354 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 2: have a case like even the Schneider case in Georgia 355 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 2: with a forty seven million dollar verdict, you have to 356 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: ask yourself, well, what was it play there? Right? And 357 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 2: without going through all of the very particular you know, 358 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 2: transcripts from that trial, you're not going to know what 359 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 2: was that? What was that one thing that maybe just 360 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: really inflamed the jurors. But I would bet a lot 361 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: of money that if you went back to all of 362 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: these cases, there was something in particular that made those 363 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: juries angry with the company or it made them scared 364 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: of the company, and that is why maybe a verdict 365 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: was so high. But when you see things like one 366 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 2: hundred and seventy six million in compensatory eight hundred million 367 00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 2: in you know, impunitive damages, that that is just there's 368 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 2: a disconnect, right, There's just a disconnect. It's the number 369 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: is so disproportionately high in contrast to the amount of 370 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: money that we're supposed to be giving an individual to 371 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 2: put him or her back in the place that they 372 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: were prior to, let's say, an accident. But then these 373 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 2: verdicts are just you know, they they have such a 374 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: larger impact on everyone. It's it's the mom and pop 375 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 2: trucking companies, it's the larger companies. It's the increase in 376 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 2: insurance premiums. It's the cost that then needs to be 377 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 2: passed down to the shippers, which, by the way, guys 378 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 2: ultimately gets passed down to you and me paying for 379 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 2: the items that are being transported by these companies. So 380 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: it has such large ramifications for the industry, and there's 381 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: a trickle down effect so that it eventually just gets 382 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 2: to you and me, whether we're you know, a lawyer 383 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: or we're checking people out at the local supermarket. 384 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 4: Right. 385 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: You know you mentioned earlier tort reform in Florida. 386 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 3: Are there any other states that are looking to do 387 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 3: something similar to I guess limit the payouts and I 388 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 3: guess I don't know if you if you know anything 389 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 3: about the Florida rule, what did they change? 390 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: So in terms of I think things that maybe can 391 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 2: be done to sort of fight back against some of 392 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 2: these you know, nuclear and thermonuclear verdicts. Obviously, there's tort 393 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 2: reform going on throughout the United States, and certainly some states, 394 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: states like Florida, states like Iowa have enacted tort reform. 395 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 2: If I'm not mistaken, I believe Iowa has like a 396 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 2: five million dollar cap on damages, and there are certainly 397 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 2: bills that are working their way through various states, you know, 398 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 2: for the same type of result. Obviously, if there is 399 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: a cap on compensatory damages, then that you know, that 400 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 2: would certainly change the way that these numbers are you know, know, 401 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: are looking now punitive damages Again, It's it's again state 402 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: by state. Some states might have a ratio damages cannot 403 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 2: be more than you know, two times, three times, four times, 404 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: and that is something that you know, the push would 405 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: be in terms of reform obviously as well. But you know, 406 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: in addition to that, there are things that we as 407 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: the defense bar just quite simply need to do better 408 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 2: in terms of trying to fight back against these nuclear 409 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 2: verdicts and better represent our clients and just have an 410 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 2: overall better outcome for the industry. As a whole, you 411 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: have not only tort reform, but third party litigation funding 412 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 2: has become huge. There are these outside entities that are 413 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: actually funding litigation. Litigation is really expensive, you know, hiring 414 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: all these experts and witnesses and mock trials and folk 415 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: groups and all these different things. They are very, very costly. 416 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 2: So you actually have third parties that are funding litigation 417 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 2: and then taking a piece of a piece of the 418 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 2: pie even when it comes in. And that's huge because 419 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: then there are ethical concerns at play too, in terms 420 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: of who's calling the shots right, who's talking about strategy 421 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 2: and what you know, impact if any are these third 422 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 2: party litigation companies sources having on the decisions that are 423 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 2: being made between a planeff's attorney and his or her client. 424 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 2: And so you actually have you know, some judges or 425 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: some courts that are entering orders that there has to 426 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 2: be automatic disclosure of third party litigation. I think we 427 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 2: as defense lawyers, you know, I think it's known, very 428 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 2: well known, the planeffs attorneys have always worked better together 429 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 2: as truly a team. It has been more of a 430 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: team sport. They are constantly evolving and they are teaching 431 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 2: each other what works what doesn't work. We don't do 432 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: that as much as the defense bar. And it's understandable why. 433 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 2: In a certain regard, meaning plaintiff's attorneys, it's more like 434 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: a one off, right, Okay, you might have a repeat customer, 435 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: God forbid, something else bad happens, or they need you. 436 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: But generally you might be representing an individual, his or 437 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 2: her family and a state. You're going to do that 438 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 2: one time. Defense attorneys, we're just fighting for clients, right, 439 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: we're fighting for repeat business. And so we've known for 440 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 2: a long time that the plaintiff's bar, they put on 441 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 2: these great conferences, they talk about what works well, what 442 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: doesn't work well. We have to be better as defense 443 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 2: attorneys at sharing information. I think we have to also 444 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: just embrace the uncomfortable more. There's too many times where 445 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: you know things are being addressed at a trial, whether 446 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: it's you know, going into the gray area in terms 447 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: of cross examining or questioning witnesses at trial, or whether 448 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: it's what you're talking about during your closing arguments. And 449 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 2: I think sometimes defense attorneys are too afraid to confront 450 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: the awkward, the things that are being said by plantiffs Council, 451 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: the big numbers that are being put up there by 452 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 2: Plantiffs Council. We teach our children that they have to 453 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 2: get comfortable in the uncomfortable. Well, we have to, you know, 454 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: practice as we preach too. We as defense attorneys have 455 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 2: to be willing to live in the uncomfortable too. We 456 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 2: have to do a better job. We have to work together. 457 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: We have to share more information in terms of what 458 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: is working and what is not working. We have to 459 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: confront the big numbers when Planiffs Council. If you're in 460 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,239 Speaker 2: a state, when I was talking earlier about anchoring and 461 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 2: putting out numbers early and as frequently as possible to 462 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: adjury these big numbers, to normalize them, you have to 463 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 2: understand you're not allowed to do that in every state. Okay, 464 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: so even Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania is a state where the plaintiff's 465 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: atorney is not able to get up and say, oh, 466 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: here is why you should award this particular plaintiff five 467 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 2: hundred million dollars. You can't do that everywhere. You can 468 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: do that some places, but you can't do that everywhere. 469 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: In the states where that is able to be done, 470 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: we have to put up our own numbers. We have 471 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 2: to explain to the jury early and as often as 472 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 2: possible why that number is astronomical and why our number 473 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 2: is more reasonable. We have to talk about what what 474 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: is the true impact of maybe an accident, What was 475 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: the true impact on that you know, particular individual's life, 476 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: and what does their life look like now? And then 477 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 2: why a number like one hundred thousand dollars or two 478 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars or even five hundred thousand dollars that 479 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 2: isn't miss amount of money, a life changing amount of money, 480 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 2: and we have to talk about that because that is 481 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: something that the everyday duror who is no different than us, 482 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 2: can understand. We can put things in perspective, what a 483 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: bills cost, what does college cost? What does you know 484 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 2: buying a truck cost? And I think we have to 485 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 2: do a better job of being willing to put up 486 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: our own numbers and explain to a jury why what 487 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 2: we are saying at the end of the day is 488 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 2: more reasonable than what is coming out of the mouths 489 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: of the plaintiff's attorneys. I think, you know, there was 490 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 2: a great suggestion that was made by my partner to 491 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 2: me last week, and that was we need to use 492 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: focus groups not these really really expensive mock trials. We 493 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: need to use focus groups. Let's grab a group of 494 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: twenty people, thirty people, forty people. Let's show them video 495 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 2: if we have it. Let them ask the questions, let 496 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: them tell us what are they interested in? What caught 497 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 2: their attention? What do they want to know more? What 498 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: is really peaking their interests? What made them upset, what 499 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 2: made them angry? What made them scared to try to 500 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: play better on? What do we really need to focus 501 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 2: on in terms of how we are going to speak 502 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 2: to perspective jurors, you know, for this case. And so 503 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,959 Speaker 2: I think there really are a number of things in 504 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: addition to the tort reform and in addition to third 505 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 2: party litigation funding, you know, the disclosure of information and 506 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 2: living in the uncomfortable and quite honestly, hiring better lawyers 507 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,719 Speaker 2: that are just willing to use different tactics instead of 508 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: some of the you know, older stuff that we've been 509 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: kind of focused on. That clearly has kind of gotten 510 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 2: us to this point because while the Plaineff's attorneys, I 511 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: think have been willing to evolve more, I'm not sure 512 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: that the defense bar has been keeping pace right. 513 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 3: And what are are there some legal issues that truckers 514 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 3: must contend with outside of these. 515 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: Nuclear verdicts. 516 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 2: Well, if you're talking about individual you know, mom and 517 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: pop type shops, or if you're talking it depends on 518 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: whether you're talking about you know, actual the person that 519 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 2: was driving. I mean, look, it's you know, you're being 520 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 2: everything's gone over with a fine toothed comb. You might 521 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, you might lose lose your job, your mom 522 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: and pop might shut down. If you have a big verdict, 523 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: come in and that's it, right. I mean, if insurance 524 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: covers a verdict, great, If xcess insurance covers a verdict, great, 525 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 2: But if excess insurance doesn't cut it, then the cost 526 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: is being passed on to the company itself. The company 527 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 2: is going to be responsible for paying a verdict. That 528 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 2: might be it. Right, If Joe Smith has his own 529 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: trucking company and he has one truck or two trucks, 530 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 2: well that might be the end of Joe Smith's you know, 531 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: trucking career. Obviously it's different when we're talking about these 532 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 2: larger companies, but there's a lot of there's a lot 533 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 2: of scrutiny if a larger company gets you know, hit 534 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: with a large verdict. They're obviously going to have to 535 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 2: spend more money on hiring. The hiring pool might get 536 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 2: get smaller. If they had a driver that was driving, 537 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 2: let's say, for three months before a terrible accident occurred, Well, 538 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 2: maybe they're no longer going to hire drivers that have 539 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: let's say, just gotten their CDL. Maybe they're going to 540 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: want drivers that have a minimum of a year experience 541 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 2: or two experience, so that the number of people that 542 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 2: might be eligible for a job at a particular company 543 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 2: might might decrease. I think it really depends on what 544 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 2: we're you know, what we're sort of talking about in 545 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 2: terms of the impact on the individual drivers. 546 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:48,479 Speaker 1: I guess, you know. 547 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 3: The real I guess question that I had was like, 548 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 3: are there any other kind of legal issues that you 549 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 3: deal with as a lawyer for transportation companies that comes 550 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 3: up often outside of like, you know, these sort of 551 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 3: huge liability cases. 552 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 2: So are there other other legal issues you said that 553 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: that come up outside of liability issues? Yeah, like these. 554 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: Sort of like nuclear vertic liability issues. 555 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 3: They might not be as sexier, they could be smaller, 556 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 3: you know, just just I'm just curious, as a you know, 557 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 3: transportation a lawyer that specializes in transportation. 558 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: You know, is there anything else come across your desk 559 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: that you have to deal with? 560 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 2: Yes, I play in my everyday life. I play psychologists, 561 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 2: I play therapists. Play. We try to play employment attorney. 562 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: I mean, look, it's when you when you represent so 563 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 2: we represent primary insurers, we represent you know, self insured 564 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 2: trucking companies, we represent you know, the insurance. It really 565 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 2: depends on who you're representing on a daily basis, and 566 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 2: a lot of what I do is I get cat calls. 567 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: We get these catastrophic you know, lass type calls right away, 568 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 2: which means I am boots on the ground from this 569 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: second something happens right and that is huge. Suddenly I become, 570 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: you know, private investigator. I do become a little bit 571 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 2: you know, psychologist or a therapist. Sometimes to these folks, 572 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 2: you get a driver on the phone, and you're talking 573 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 2: to a driver after a horrific accident has occurred, where 574 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: someone has potentially died or someone has suffered serious injuries. 575 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 2: You have to sort of take your lawyer off for 576 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 2: a moment and realize you are talking to somebody that's 577 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 2: been involved in potentially the worst day of his or 578 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 2: her life and So this is kind of what I 579 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 2: deal with on the daily. It's not just thinking about 580 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 2: nuclear verdicts. It's talking to people about how they're gonna 581 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: keep on keeping on, how they're gonna get back to 582 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 2: work the next day potentially or the next week, and 583 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: how are they going to continue, you know, living living 584 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: their lives. And there's been a lot of times where 585 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 2: my family has listened to me on the phone, whether 586 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 2: it's with a school bus driver and a child's been hurt, 587 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 2: whether it's with you know, a local mom and pop 588 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: and that person's now worried about losing his or her business, 589 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 2: whether it's a driver for a huge fortune five hundred company, 590 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 2: and again you know, someone's died and they just don't 591 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 2: know how they're gonna move on. I mean, this is 592 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 2: what I do on the daily. I talk to people 593 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 2: about their livelihood. I talk to people about potentially what 594 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 2: we're going to have to deal with two years from now, 595 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 2: three years from now, four years from now, What does 596 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: their employment look like? What is you know, what's the 597 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: future for the company. Is this going to shutter the company? 598 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 2: What you know is it is it just going to 599 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 2: increase insurance premiums? Do we talk about you know, early 600 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 2: early resolution. Look in the end, I think every good 601 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 2: defense attorney is going to tell you there are a 602 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,399 Speaker 2: lot of plaintiffs out there, and our hearts go out 603 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 2: to anyone that is injured or obviously you know, killed 604 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 2: at its worst as a result of a terrible accident 605 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 2: in the transportation industry. But we have to find a way, 606 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 2: no different than when I was a criminal defense attorney 607 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 2: and I had to look beyond, you know, sort of 608 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 2: the moral ramifications of whatever was going on, and then 609 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 2: I had to defend my client to the best of 610 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 2: my ability, because that is what our country and our 611 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 2: system allows for. It's it's really the same here. You 612 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 2: have to be able and I deal with on the 613 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: daily the worst day of somebody's life. Whether it is 614 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 2: the person that was hurt, whether it is the other 615 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 2: that was involved because he or she was driving, doesn't 616 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 2: matter whether it was a truck, you know, a box truck, 617 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 2: a van, a school bus, whatever it might be. That 618 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 2: you have to be able to talk to these people 619 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 2: and really hold their hands through the worst time of 620 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 2: their lives. 621 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 5: Thanks for your time and insight, Robin. 622 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. It's been 623 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 2: a lot of fun for my first time. 624 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 5: And thank you for tuning in. If you liked the episode, 625 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 5: please subscribe. 626 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 2: And leave a review. 627 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 5: We've lined up a number of great guests for the podcast, 628 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 5: so please check back to hear conversations with C suite executives, shippers, regulators, 629 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 5: and decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you 630 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 5: have any ideas for future episodes, please hit me up 631 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 5: on the Bloomberg terminal or on Twitter at logistics Late. Also, 632 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 5: thank you for talking transports with me and let's keep 633 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 5: those supply chains moving. 634 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: Bye.