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Speaker 1: Also media Ah, Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a

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Speaker 1: podcast where I the host, Robert Evans, am pretty hungover

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Speaker 1: because last night I saw Twisters.

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Speaker 2: Molly, Molly Conger our guest for today. Have you seen

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Speaker 2: Twisters or Twister? You know the classic film that it's

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Speaker 2: based on.

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Speaker 3: I assume I've seen the original, you know in snippets

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Speaker 3: on T and T as a child.

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Speaker 2: You wouldn't forget it. One of the great Phil Paxton.

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Speaker 3: Roles So's Twisters Too is like the son of the original,

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Speaker 3: The son is the original Twister, like just put they

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Speaker 3: just put an s on it, which is fine.

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Speaker 2: It's a fine movie. There's not more tornadoes than there

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Speaker 2: were in Twister. But Twister, there's about four minutes of

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Speaker 2: Twister that isn't actively a tornado like that movie really

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Speaker 2: gives you a lot of twisters, and so does Twisters.

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Speaker 3: But it's the son of the original Torneo trying to

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Speaker 3: reckon with his father's Well.

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Speaker 2: That's one of the through lines with both movies is

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Speaker 2: that all of both the main character in a Twister

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Speaker 2: movie has always lost loved ones to a tornado and

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Speaker 2: is trying to fight the tornado for revenge. And in

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Speaker 2: this one. They develop a way to kill tornadoes, and

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Speaker 2: so that's that's what they're trying to do, is murder

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Speaker 2: a tornado and vengeance because she lost all of her

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Speaker 2: friends to a tornado.

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Speaker 3: It was It's great.

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Speaker 4: It was described to me by a friend who saw

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Speaker 4: it as Glenn Powell in a very long Wrangler jeans ad.

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Speaker 2: Oh he is, so you know how you know, Molly,

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Speaker 2: how like some some of those Alex Jones freaks believe

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Speaker 2: in like race specific bioweapons, like they made a disease

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Speaker 2: that only targets white people or can't hurt Jews or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Right, Twister, this time is personal.

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Speaker 2: The guy in Twister, his jeans are like they were

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Speaker 2: DNA coded for him, Like you couldn't get a fit

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Speaker 2: of jeans that tight unless they were literally grown around

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Speaker 2: your body.

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Speaker 3: Wasn't that Wasn't that a thing for a while, where

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Speaker 3: like the denim guys were like wearing their jeans in

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Speaker 3: the bathtub and letting them dry to their body. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't feel like that's the thing anyone would do

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Speaker 2: on a regular basis.

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Speaker 3: No, it was like you know, the guys who like

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Speaker 3: blogged about you know, they didn't wash their jeans. They

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Speaker 3: put them in a freezer instead.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand jeans, guys. I never liked jeans. But

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Speaker 2: this movie's great. It's got a really good truck. They're

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Speaker 2: all ram trucks, unfortunately, but one of the trucks is

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Speaker 2: really good. It shoots fireworks at the tornadoes, which winds

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Speaker 2: up being a critical part of fighting the tornadoes.

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Speaker 3: Well, how else would you get whatever you put it

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Speaker 3: in the tornado tornado? Yeah, I mean, I guess you

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Speaker 3: could feed it to a cow. I know the Twister

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Speaker 3: likes to eat cows.

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Speaker 2: They only feed things to the tornado in the way

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Speaker 2: that is the most dangerous they could possibly do. Although

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Speaker 2: one of the other through lines in the Twister universe

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Speaker 2: is that automotive glasses invulnerable, cannot be harmed.

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Speaker 3: You are cyber trucks.

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Speaker 2: It's great stuff, great movie. What's different about them is

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Speaker 2: the first movie is like Oklahoma porn, and that you're

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Speaker 2: watching Oklahoma be destroyed, and that's great because it's a terrible.

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Speaker 3: Place people like you especially Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this one. It's like Oklahoma porn. But they

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Speaker 2: love Oklahoma, although they do they do have the tornado

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Speaker 2: attack a rodeo which is a great seat.

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Speaker 3: I hope Party Bus the Rodeo Bowl was safe.

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Speaker 2: I think the well No, actually, the bulls get sucked up.

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Speaker 2: A lot of things get sucked into tornadoes in this movie.

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Speaker 2: There's a high body count. It's great, good movie.

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Speaker 3: I enjoyed it.

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Speaker 2: I got very drunk and now my head hurts. How

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Speaker 2: are you, Molly?

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm doing great today.

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Speaker 4: Robert, would you buy the Glen Powell jeans?

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Speaker 2: No, because those jeans would clearly only fit Glenn Powell.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Oh, and you're at a phase of your life now

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Speaker 3: where comfortable pants are an affordable luxury.

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Speaker 4: I like to think Glenn Powell's either three D printed,

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Speaker 4: made from AI or the ink might have just run

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Speaker 4: out a little bit.

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Speaker 3: I'm googling Glenn Powell. I don't know what.

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Speaker 2: He's one of those guys who's handsome in a way

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Speaker 2: that like I can't like, there's nothing about him that

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Speaker 2: I can say is like not good looking, but also

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Speaker 2: it's off. It's upsetting, kind of like Anthony Starr from

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Speaker 2: the Boys, which which works for the role that he's playing.

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Speaker 2: There's just something a little bit uncomfortable about how good

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Speaker 2: looking he is, and Glenn Powell he's like he's got

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Speaker 2: like resting family annihilator face, one of those guys who

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Speaker 2: there's a terrible crime lingering inside you somewhere.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, did this man exist before? If never? He doesn't

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Speaker 3: look familiar to me at all.

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Speaker 2: He's I don't know if I'd seen him in anything

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Speaker 2: before Twisters.

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Speaker 4: I always he has kids three d No, He's been

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Speaker 4: everywhere for like the last year. It's been very big

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Speaker 4: in my group chat. We've been talking about why why

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Speaker 4: this man is being forced upon all of us? And

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Speaker 4: now he's reached you, Robert, he's getting to me.

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Speaker 2: I gotta say, honestly, downgrade from Bill Paxton. But what

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Speaker 2: isn't a downgrade from Bill Paxton? That man had a

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Speaker 2: great face? Oh Bill?

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Speaker 4: And now and now that is the cold open, cold

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Speaker 4: open has done.

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Speaker 3: That's is it done?

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Speaker 2: Oh shit, Molly, today we're talking about apartheid. Oh and

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Speaker 2: we're back apartheid. I hardly know, Tiede. That doesn't the

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Speaker 2: joke doesn't work that way.

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Speaker 3: It worked in writing speaking.

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Speaker 2: I really work in writing because is not a thing

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Speaker 2: you know, or a name or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: Molly.

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Speaker 2: This is not just about apartheid, right, I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: set during apartheid. I'm not just going to do an

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Speaker 2: apartheid episode because I don't know if that just doesn't

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Speaker 2: feel like the behind the bastard's way to do this part.

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Speaker 3: I didn't have a childhood we can examine.

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Speaker 2: Uh yeah, well arguable. But you know, you have your

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Speaker 2: new pot cast Weird Little Guys coming out where you

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Speaker 2: talk about all of the weird little guys trying to

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Speaker 2: ruin life for everybody else, these crazy little Nazis who

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Speaker 2: become mass shooters and terrorists and commit all sorts of

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Speaker 2: wacky crimes and also are like always into bizarre shit.

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Speaker 2: Besides that kind of stuff, it.

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Speaker 3: Turns out they're usually perverts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're usually some usually sex crimes, usually some sort

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Speaker 2: of pervert shit.

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Speaker 3: The first couple of groups I've written, I'm like, I

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Speaker 3: did not choose a trio of child sex perverts on purpose.

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Speaker 3: It's just always there. Yeah, it's the you.

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Speaker 2: Get, like Twitter and stuff loves to make fun of

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Speaker 2: like middle aged kinks who are like really into whatever

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Speaker 2: their weird kink is. But like, I do think that

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Speaker 2: being able to talk about it in a way that

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Speaker 2: is cringe worthy to ninety percent of the population probably

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Speaker 2: helped stop you from I don't know, like setting off

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Speaker 2: a bomb in a post office, Like you need to

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Speaker 2: do something with that pervert energy that's not just perversion,

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Speaker 2: otherwise it can curdle. Now, we don't know what perversion

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Speaker 2: the object of our episode for this week has, but

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Speaker 2: this is we are going to talk Molly about a

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Speaker 2: weird little guy and this is appropriate, a weird little

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Speaker 2: guy of apartheid. And this guy is appropriate both because

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Speaker 2: of your show and because the like on the week

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Speaker 2: we record this. One of the big news stories is

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Speaker 2: that a right wing paramilitary mob supported by members of

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Speaker 2: the Kanesset has laid siege to an IDF base in

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Speaker 2: Israel and defensive soldiers who carried out gang rape and

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Speaker 2: torture on Palestinian prisoners. You know, the gist of the story,

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Speaker 2: not that this is a story you should just get

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Speaker 2: the gist of You should read some reporting on it.

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Speaker 2: But the gist of it is they won. Those guys

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Speaker 2: got released, and that's pretty bad. There was some talk

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Speaker 2: that like is Israel heading down the road of a

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Speaker 2: civil conflict, but they just caved on. It's totally fine

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Speaker 2: if our guys like the kind of shit they were

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Speaker 2: doing to some of these captives. Was like, there was

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Speaker 2: a debate in the Kannesset about it, and one lawmaker

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Speaker 2: was like, is it legitimate to shove a stick into

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Speaker 2: someone's rectum? And another parliamentarian was like, yeah, if he's

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Speaker 2: a Hammas militant, everything is legitimate. And it's disagree. I

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Speaker 2: disagree with that if they are Hamas militants, but they're

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Speaker 2: they're usually not like you're just picking people up off

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Speaker 2: the street, you know, we know that in a lot

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Speaker 2: of these cases, it's a lot of people who are

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Speaker 2: getting grabbed for absolutely no reason, which is always, by

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Speaker 2: the way, always the case when a government is grabbing

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Speaker 2: a bunch of terrorists and torturing them. It's always some dudes,

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Speaker 2: you know, and ladies and whatever kids, But it's it's

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Speaker 2: usually not the scary thing they say.

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Speaker 3: It is they found a way to make prison break uncool.

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Speaker 3: Like normally a mob storming a prison would be no

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Speaker 3: storming prisons. Yeah, not this, but really, they really wrecked it.

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Speaker 3: They really wrecked it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like how a lot of

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Speaker 2: people are hating the Olympics, which normally I'm in favor of,

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Speaker 2: but they're doing it for all of the weird, crazy

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Speaker 2: gross reasons like, no, no, you don't hate the Olympics

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Speaker 2: for that, not because some lady want a boxing match.

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Speaker 2: You hate the Olympics for all of the good reasons

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Speaker 2: to hate the Olympics, not because.

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Speaker 3: It's you know, satanic grooming of your children. What comes

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Speaker 3: of it?

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Speaker 2: You were ruining the things that I have been hating

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Speaker 2: long before you did. Anyway, it's bad to torture people.

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Speaker 2: There's no justification for what we're seeing in Israel now,

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Speaker 2: which is you know, I think a dark turn. This

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Speaker 2: stuff has been going on for a while. The reporting

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Speaker 2: on the torture at that base had come out through

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Speaker 2: like New York Times had done a story on it,

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Speaker 2: as well as some like local Israeli papers, So it's

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Speaker 2: been like pretty heavily reported. And this kind of thing,

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Speaker 2: it's the inevitable result of building an apartheid state, right.

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Speaker 2: You saw a lot of shit like this in South

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Speaker 2: Africa because you had these chunk of the population who

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Speaker 2: were you know, terrorists carrying out what they saw was

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Speaker 2: liberatory acts of terrorism. You know, Nelson Mandela like was

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Speaker 2: a terrorist, right, Like That's that's the reality of the situation.

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Speaker 2: And whenever you have that the apartheid state is going

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Speaker 2: to respond by demonizing the chunk of the population that

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Speaker 2: those terrorists come out of and doing horrible, horrible things

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Speaker 2: to them, including generally horrific acts of police violence. Right.

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Speaker 2: The police are kind of going to be oftentimes your

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Speaker 2: kind of ground level enforcers of the very worst parts

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Speaker 2: of this society. And that's true everywhere you know, stuff

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Speaker 2: like this happens. We could talk and we have talked

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Speaker 2: in the past about the use of dogs against black

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Speaker 2: detainees by US police during the Jim Crow era, right,

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Speaker 2: And obviously aspects of that continue on for today, but

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Speaker 2: a lot of how dogs were used to do violence

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Speaker 2: to black people, particularly during the Civil rights era, is

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Speaker 2: directly relevant to stuff that happened in apartheid South Africa. Right.

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Speaker 2: Every single time you have kind of any sort of

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Speaker 2: apartheid regime being held in place, and it's always held

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Speaker 2: in place by police, there's always really really fucked up

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Speaker 2: dog stories.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: It happens every single time, and it's actually going to

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Speaker 2: happen in this story because the subject of our episodes

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Speaker 2: is a he's a guy who winds up as a

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Speaker 2: security guard. He's probably a serial killer. It's probably fair

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Speaker 2: to call him a serial killer. He's definitely a serial murderer.

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Speaker 2: And he was also a dog cop and apartheid South Africa.

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Speaker 2: His name, Oh yeah, no yet we are we'll be

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Speaker 2: talking about and of all the dog cops South African

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Speaker 2: apartheid era dog cops might be the worst dog cops.

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Speaker 2: These guys pretty ugly stuff. His name was Lewis ben Shore. Now,

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Speaker 2: because this isn't apartheid episode, it is going to be

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Speaker 2: bleak as all hell, and because this is an episode

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Speaker 2: about South Africa, thankfully, it will also involve ridiculous names.

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Speaker 2: So we do have that coming for us, right, Molly.

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Speaker 2: I will promise you some very silly names.

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Speaker 3: And we can pronounce the Dutch as badly as we want.

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Speaker 3: We're not going to do well, We're not going to.

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Speaker 2: This first name might got our bad Guy's full name

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Speaker 2: was cybrind Jacobus loudwick Us van Schure, which and.

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Speaker 3: We're not looking up how to actually pronounce that. Well, no,

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Speaker 3: we're not.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't deserve it, although I will tell you load

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Speaker 2: Wickus is where we get the Lewis, which I guess

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Speaker 2: makes sense, like if I knew a load Wickss, I

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Speaker 2: would probably call him Lewis, because that's that's a that's

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Speaker 2: quite a name to have to say. Although I do

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Speaker 2: think I'm getting the wickest part right, just because I

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Speaker 2: watched the movie District nine in preparation for this, you know,

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Speaker 2: which really really reminded me how much CGI has aged

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Speaker 2: in the last what has it been twenty years? Anyway,

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Speaker 2: cybri and Jacobus Loadwikes fan sure was born at some

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Speaker 2: point in nineteen fifty one in South Africa. This is

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Speaker 2: one of those guys where we really don't know a

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Speaker 2: whole lot about his childhood given where he lived much

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Speaker 2: of his life. He may have been born in East London,

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Speaker 2: which is a city, not a part of London, because

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Speaker 2: South Africa. You know, when British people had their time

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Speaker 2: running South Africa, they just kind of named a bunch

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Speaker 2: of shit after places they had left behind because it

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Speaker 2: was too well and dreary, which is what they did

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Speaker 2: to a lot of the world's.

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Speaker 3: Bringing a little bit of.

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Speaker 2: Home, Yeah, bringing a little bit of home along with

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Speaker 2: your terrible cuisine. Now, I hope most listeners are at

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Speaker 2: least broadly familiar with the concept of apartheid in South Africa,

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Speaker 2: which literally means separateness in Afrikaans what became South Africa.

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Speaker 2: The country started as a colony of the Dutch East

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Speaker 2: India Company in the seventeenth century. The mission initially was

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Speaker 2: purely capitalist in the most mercenary sense imaginable. The most

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Speaker 2: notable early official was a guy named Jan von Reibek,

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Speaker 2: who arrived in sixteen fifty two to set up a

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Speaker 2: refreshment station for passing cargo ships. His job was to

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Speaker 2: make money delivering as much quality agricultural product into the

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Speaker 2: holds of company ships as possible, but greed led the

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Speaker 2: company to take more and more good farmland, which pissed

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Speaker 2: off the people who had been living there for you know,

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Speaker 2: a long time and didn't care much for the fact

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Speaker 2: that all these white people were now saying, you can't

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Speaker 2: walk around here, you can't hunt here, you know, like

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Speaker 2: you can't like we've got this now, we need it

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Speaker 2: for our boats to take away. So they launch raids

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Speaker 2: on company farms and there's some small battles between guards

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Speaker 2: and local warriors. Much of the violence is centered around

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Speaker 2: or in response to, cattle raids by the indigenous Kokoy people.

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Speaker 2: Van Rybeck felt like the problem could be solved by

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Speaker 2: making it more of a pain in the ass for

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Speaker 2: the Kokoi to access their ancestral lands. So in sixteen

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Speaker 2: fifty nine he had his forces start to build a

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Speaker 2: giant fence. As is always the case, whenever you build

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Speaker 2: a fence with guard towers, you're gonna do some fucked

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Speaker 2: up shit, right, Like, no story that started with let's

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Speaker 2: build a giant fence ever ended very well, and this

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Speaker 2: fence is no different from that. Since fences are hard

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Speaker 2: to build, he listed the aid of Mother nature and

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Speaker 2: planted a huge hedge of wild almond trees and thorny

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Speaker 2: scrubs across sections. He didn't want to bother using work.

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Speaker 3: Gangs on what is he maleficent like building a big

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Speaker 3: thorny hedge.

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Speaker 2: It's a very Disney racism fence that Yan is created here.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I guess that's eco friendly, right? Was he

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Speaker 3: using species? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You can't fault him for being green. I will say

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Speaker 2: that he at least is an environmentally friendly architect of

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Speaker 2: the earliest stages of the apartheid system. As an article

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Speaker 2: on the hedge fence by Zobeta Jaffer notes, quote, for many,

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Speaker 2: this hedge marks the first step on the road to

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Speaker 2: apartheid and symbolizes how white South Africa cut itself off

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Speaker 2: from the rest of Africa, dispossessed the indigenous people, and

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Speaker 2: kept the best of the resources for itself. Now, Dutch

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Speaker 2: colonial possessions didn't stay limited to the land they'd taken

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Speaker 2: in Van Reibeck's era, and over the next century and

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Speaker 2: a half, white colonizers, who came to call themselves Boers,

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Speaker 2: moved towards the interior. They eventually collided with a migration

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Speaker 2: of Bantu people, and great violence proceeded from their clash

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Speaker 2: that ensued. For you know, they had a war. They

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Speaker 2: had wars and stuff alast for the Boers and for

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Speaker 2: everyone else. Really, the British were also really interested in

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Speaker 2: having some of this land and will to deploy better,

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Speaker 2: more competent violence to do it. They took the Cape

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Speaker 2: Colony in seventeen ninety five, abolished Dutch as the language

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Speaker 2: of administration because fuck you guys, that's why.

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Speaker 3: And by the.

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Speaker 2: End of the eighteen hundreds, you know, things are sailing

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Speaker 2: along well. The British empires giant. They got a whole

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Speaker 2: bunch of South Africa. Everybody's happy, except for nobody is

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Speaker 2: actually very happy. Now I should note that while the British,

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Speaker 2: there's some things you can say that they like improve

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Speaker 2: race wise during the time they're in charge of South Africa.

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Speaker 2: For you know, for instance, they end slavery right like

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Speaker 2: within the British Empire, which includes this, slavery becomes legal

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Speaker 2: in the mid eighteen hundreds. But they also pass some

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Speaker 2: of the first race laws, like a lot of the

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Speaker 2: laws that become the undergirding legal parts of the apartheid

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Speaker 2: system start as British colonial laws. So it's a mix

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Speaker 2: of things. The whole story is bigger than we're going

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Speaker 2: to get to in this episode, but this paragraph from

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Speaker 2: journalist Heidi Holland's book The Color of Murder does a

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Speaker 2: decent job of setting up the next few moves. Around

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Speaker 2: eighteen thirty eight, clinging to a dream of racial exclusivity,

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Speaker 2: but leaving behind their homes in the fields they had cultivated,

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Speaker 2: the Afrikaaners set out to escape the British by migrating

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Speaker 2: northwards across the Drakensburg Mountains into Natal and over the

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Speaker 2: Orange River into the Transvall the great tracks some bloody

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Speaker 2: nineteenth century battles with Zulu warriors and their defeat in

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Speaker 2: the war with the British seventy years later helped create

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Speaker 2: a fierce nationalism among the Afrikaaners. The concentration camps of

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Speaker 2: the Anglo Boer War, in which men, women and children

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Speaker 2: perished at the hands of the British, left Afrikaaners a

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Speaker 2: profoundly defeated tribe with a defensive psyche that was to

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Speaker 2: have disastrous repercussions in later years. Now, we've talked in

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Speaker 2: this podcast about how one of the first modern concentration

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Speaker 2: camps was set up by the British during the Boer

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Speaker 2: War and they were in turning, they turned black South

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Speaker 2: Africans and Boers, right, and they killed a significant chunk

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Speaker 2: of the Boer population through these camps, Like these were

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Speaker 2: really terrible places, thought until they read Heidi's book about

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Speaker 2: how that chapter played into the apartheid government. Right, it

359
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 2: makes sense when you think about these sense the fact

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Speaker 2: that any reading you do of like white culture in

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Speaker 2: South Africa during apartheid, there's this constant sense of life

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Speaker 2: under siege and this constant sense of aggrievement. Right, we

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00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,360
Speaker 2: are owed something that we don't have. We are owed domination. Right,

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Speaker 2: we are owed almost this vengeance because of the things

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Speaker 2: that have been done to us. Right, the sense of

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Speaker 2: persecution is a major fueling factor for apartheid, Right, Like

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Speaker 2: the fact that the British kicked the shit out of

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Speaker 2: them is a big part of why they're going to

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Speaker 2: be so shitty for so long. Right, it has a

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Speaker 2: it's that kind of like I have now been bullied

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Speaker 2: and I am going to go find someone weaker to

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Speaker 2: bully the helly the hell out of right, Like, that's

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Speaker 2: a big part of the actual psyche of apartheid.

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Speaker 3: It just seems like they should have taken that beef

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Speaker 3: with the British back home, like go do that in

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Speaker 3: the English channel or something.

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Speaker 2: You go fuck up the bread, Like, come on, guys,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna throw it

379
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,320
Speaker 2: out here. Take Manchester. You probably take Manchester. They don't

380
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,199
Speaker 2: have that many guns anymore. I bet you guys have

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00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 2: more guns. Go take Manchester. You know, nobody's gonna complain.

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Speaker 2: If somebody is like, hey, you want to come to

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Speaker 2: a free Manchester from the Bower's rally, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: say no, let them have it.

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Speaker 3: I'm fine with that. That just doesn't sound like my business.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not my business. So something happens to Manchester.

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Speaker 3: Some what are they called menkunions, They're going to be

388
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Speaker 3: really Matt Robert, Oh.

389
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, there's gonna be a lot of

390
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 2: Mancoonian terrorism in Johannesburg. But that's not my problem either. Now,

391
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Speaker 2: British victory in the Boer War came not long before

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Speaker 2: the outbreak of World War One, and if you know

393
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Speaker 2: your colonial history, you know that the British Empire didn't

394
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Speaker 2: have a long healthy life after at that point. Right,

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Speaker 2: South Africa becomes independent pretty early. It's the same status

396
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Speaker 2: Canada has obviously as Americans. It's Molly and i'ed divine

397
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 2: right to not know how the Canadian government actually works.

398
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Speaker 2: So I don't actually know if the British have any

399
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 2: power in Canada anymore. I don't think so. I'm pretty

400
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,679
Speaker 2: sure you guys are have your training wheels off, but

401
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 2: I'm not going to check that out.

402
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:08,919
Speaker 3: Swans in Canada belong to the.

403
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Speaker 2: King too, belong to one of the kings. But yeah,

404
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,119
Speaker 2: I don't understand it at all. I also feel like,

405
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 2: you know, well, actually the Canadians beat us in the

406
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Speaker 2: one war we had with them.

407
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Speaker 3: But whatever, I don't think they could do it again.

408
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think they. I don't think they'd win

409
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 2: this time, right, I don't know. Maybe if it was

410
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 2: like no, I think the Great Lakes I think actually,

411
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 2: if I'm remembering the documentary operation Canadian Bacon well enough

412
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 2: or was that the name of that John Goodman movie.

413
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Speaker 2: I got to look this up now, Molly, have you

414
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 2: seen this movie?

415
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Speaker 3: I think you're making it up.

416
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Speaker 2: No, no, no, it's a John Goodman movie where a

417
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 2: bunch of yokels from the Great Lakes region invade Canada.

418
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Speaker 2: It's a classic. I need to watch it with Garrison.

419
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 2: The film is just Canadian Bacon, Okay, Okay, So that's

420
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Speaker 2: kind of.

421
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 3: A mouthful for a title.

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00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Canadian Bacon's a fine title. It's a good

423
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:06,440
Speaker 2: movie anyway.

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Speaker 3: So yeah.

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Speaker 2: South Africa gets its independence pretty early in the nineteenth century,

426
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Speaker 2: more or less, but domestic peace is elusive. There are

427
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 2: tensions not only between black and white, but between English

428
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 2: speaking whites and Boers. Eventually, the Afrikaaners won in nineteen

429
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Speaker 2: forty eight and the National Party came to power, pushing

430
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Speaker 2: a program of enforced racial separatism backed by state violence.

431
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 2: And this is kind of when apartheid officially slides into

432
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Speaker 2: being right. You had aspects of that enforced by racial

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Speaker 2: laws that had pre existed it back to the colonial era.

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Speaker 2: But it's the National Party that comes to power with

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00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 2: the problems that basically, we are going to make, you know,

436
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 2: separate white and black people, right like that, that's our program.

437
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 2: One of the first architects of the system is a

438
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: guy named Hendrik ver Ward who became leader of the country.

439
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 2: He started out as he was the education minister. Initially,

440
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 2: I think he used to be a teacher, and he's

441
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 2: a very racist guy described in a speech his belief

442
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 2: that black citizens could never be more than huers of

443
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 2: wood and drawers of water. So that's a good basis

444
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: for a stable society. Race becomes a strictly managed legal category,

445
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 2: marked an ID card, something that delineated when and where

446
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 2: people could travel and exist legally. Now this is not

447
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 2: a natural state of affairs. It doesn't work very well

448
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 2: for very long in any of the places in the

449
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 2: world that try versions of this, and it always has

450
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 2: to be enforced through state violence. In South Africa, the

451
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 2: government developed a wider variety of tools, civil and military

452
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 2: for this purpose. One of these tools was Section forty

453
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: nine of the Criminal Procedures Act, which established a legal

454
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 2: obligation for police to interfere in criminal activity and define

455
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,719
Speaker 2: the degree of force they were allowed to use to

456
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 2: do it. Section forty nine and its predecessors had existed

457
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 2: in various forms in South African law back to the

458
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: colonial era, but the most significant amendment of the apartheid

459
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 2: era in nineteen seventy seven. It read as follows. If

460
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 2: any person authorized under this Act to arrest or assist

461
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 2: in arresting another, attempts to arrest such person, and such

462
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 2: person resists the attempt and cannot be arrested without the

463
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: use of force, or flees when it is clear that

464
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 2: an attempt to arrest him is being made, or resists

465
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,959
Speaker 2: such attempt and flees, the person so authorized may, in

466
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: order to affect the arrest, use such force as may,

467
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 2: in the circumstances, be reasonably necessary to overcome the resistance

468
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 2: or to prevent the person concerned from fleeing. Where the

469
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 2: person concerned is to be arrested for an offense referred

470
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 2: to in Schedule one, or is to be arrested on

471
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: the ground that he is reasonably suspected of having committed

472
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 2: such an offense, and to the person authorized under this

473
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: Act to arrest or to assist in arresting him cannot

474
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: arrest or prevent him from fleeing by other means than

475
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 2: by killing him, the killing shall be deemed justifiable.

476
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 3: So they just sort of codified what cops already do

477
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 3: when they shoot a fourteen year old boy in the back.

478
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 2: Yes, and this is a you noted, not so different

479
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 2: from how the cops. The law treats police in the

480
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: United States. Now, that is a process that developed here

481
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: becoming more normal, not that cops haven't always used violence,

482
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: but it becoming as normal as it is for police

483
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: to shoot fleeing people. That has become more normal, right

484
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: as laws have been added to the United States and

485
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 2: his court cases have kind of increased the amount of

486
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 2: immunity that police have in situations like that. Apartheid South

487
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: Africa pretty early on codifies a system of immunity that

488
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 2: allows cops to shoot people in the back.

489
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 3: The difference is it doesn't allow it. It sounds like

490
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 3: it man did al.

491
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 2: Well, it could be argued to mandate it, right.

492
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 3: Because whereas American police, you know, over and over again,

493
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 3: this goes to court court say no, if cops don't

494
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 3: want to do anything, they don't have to. They're not

495
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 3: obliged to intervene. They're not obliged to help. But I

496
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 3: thought you said that they are required to interact.

497
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 2: That's how the laws. I don't think anyone. I've never

498
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: come across cases people being punished for not shooting someone

499
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 2: in the back. But there's basically the law says you

500
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 2: have to intervene if you are one of these kinds

501
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: of people authorized by this act and you think that

502
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: you come across a crime, right, and you are allowed

503
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: if you choose to to use lethal force if someone

504
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 2: tries to run away from you, right, So not just

505
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 2: self defense, but if someone is fleeing arrest. And this

506
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 2: law another way in which it differs from kind of

507
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: how the US treats stuff like this, because obviously our

508
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 2: cops do this shit all the time. In South Africa,

509
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: the law can extend to a wider variety of white citizens,

510
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: including people working as security guards for local businesses.

511
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 3: Right, Oh, that's not who you want doing this. No, No,

512
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: it is not good. No, it is.

513
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: Not and it is not going to end well. One

514
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 2: South African legal expert analyzing this law before it was

515
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: amended in nineteen ninety eight, noted as described in a

516
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: study by Cartha Ghizy Sammy Kistan of the University of

517
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 2: on Pretoria in response to the confirment of such open

518
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 2: ended powers on the arrestor to shoot and kill. For instance,

519
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 2: a young child who had stolen or was reasonably suspected

520
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: of having stolen an item of such relatively trivial value

521
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: as an apple and who had fled an arrest could

522
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 2: be shot.

523
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 3: Oh no, So like at this point, we're talking like

524
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 3: CBS door security guard run to cops just shooting children.

525
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you jack an apple and the rent a cop

526
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: can empty a nine millimeter into your back, perfectly legal.

527
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: I feel like that's going to escalate.

528
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: Really, it's going to happen a lot. Now. This brings

529
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: us back to our weird little guy for this episode,

530
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: Lewis van Schore. Now, I found very little that's verifiable

531
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,719
Speaker 2: about his childhood. In early life, his father was a

532
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 2: cruel authoritarian who bullied him. He's basically said by some

533
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 2: people who knew him that, like his dad never gave

534
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 2: him a break. He was probably an abused kid, right,

535
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 2: It's probably fair to say he was abused as a kid,

536
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 2: he would certainly have been exposed to outrageous levels of

537
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: racism because he is a white kid in apartheid in

538
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: South Africa. I will say, I'm not sure this guy

539
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: is actually particularly racist for white people in apartheid South Africa.

540
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: I do actually have to note that I don't think

541
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 2: he's motivated by racism. We'll talk about this because this

542
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: is debatable. I think this guy's just a serial killer

543
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: and the best way to do that is going to

544
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: be getting into law enforcement and apartheid South that's the

545
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: easiest way to get away with murdering people. But I

546
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: think it's the murdering he's motivated by more than the

547
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 2: color of the people he's murdering, right.

548
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 3: Just a great opportunity, It's just a.

549
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: It's really easy to get away with murdering poor black

550
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: people in apartheid South Africa if you're a cop, and

551
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: that's why he wants to be a cop. That's my

552
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 2: take on it. But we'll see where you land. So,

553
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: schooling is not something that interests Lewis, and he drops

554
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: out at age sixteen to join the police. He starts

555
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 2: carrying a gun immediately as soon as he drops out

556
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: of school. He is a an armed police officer as

557
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: a teenage boy, I a problem with that system. Really

558
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: bad idea, but worst person to give a gun and

559
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: a bad's The fact that he would get to carry

560
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: a gun seems to have been a major part of

561
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: why he wanted to do this, right. He specifically became

562
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 2: a cop because he wanted to walk around with a gun.

563
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 2: Van Shure was big. He's a physically powerful guy. Basically,

564
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 2: everyone who meets him, even as an old man, is like, yeah,

565
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: he was like physically a very imposing man and he

566
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: is never afraid of violence. The police in South Africa

567
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: in those days had a special use for men like that,

568
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: enforcing the increasingly unpopular apartheid system through hideous violence. Now,

569
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: as in the United States, a great deal of police

570
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: racial violence was accomplished using dogs, and Van Shure was

571
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: quickly promoted to work as a handler in the dog unit.

572
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: South African police had established dog units, initially for detective

573
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: work in rural areas and gold mines. After nineteen ten,

574
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: many of the first detection dogs were used for tracking,

575
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: and by the nineteen thirties there were several hundred police

576
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: dogs in service and a breeding program. I do love

577
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: that a dog, right.

578
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 3: Perfect, she's mad.

579
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 2: No poor dogs, although these are the dogs they breed

580
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: in South Africa to be race violence dogs are pretty

581
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: brutal animals.

582
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 3: You do have to say, do you know what kind

583
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 3: of dogs they were fond of?

584
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: They start with like German shepherds, but they kind of

585
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: breed their own, like these are our South African doing

586
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: race violence.

587
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 3: Dogs, right, Oh, they made they made special ones.

588
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: Everyone kind of does. You know, when you get when

589
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: you develop your own system of race based dog based

590
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: race based violence, you're gonna make your own dogs for

591
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: Everyone's a little different. The kind of racism you want

592
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: to do in the you know, Mississippi with dogs might

593
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: be different than the kind of racism you want to

594
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: do in Pretoria, you know, or in uh or wherever. Yeah, right, exactly, the.

595
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 3: Head you know what you want to use native flora and.

596
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: Fauna, exactly exactly. Thank thank you for understanding, Molly.

597
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 3: I'm trying to see a picture of these dogs.

598
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: It's like I'm just trying to talking about dogs using Yeah,

599
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: so no police dogs. There's initially like if the police

600
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: us like the dogs are just for tracking, right, and

601
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 2: if they're used to harm suspects. There's like penalties and

602
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: stuff that have to be paid. But you know, Molly

603
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: speaking of using dogs to brutalize captive populations. You know,

604
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: our audience is kind of a captive population. And here's

605
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: these ads.

606
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: And we.

607
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 4: What was happening there? What are you doing? Did you

608
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 4: did you forget what you were doing? What happened?

609
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 3: Nothing?

610
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: We're back, We're back, We're here, We're here.

611
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: Why not?

612
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: So? There were initially penalties when police dogs were used

613
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: to harm suspects, but as dogs who would you know,

614
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: were like they started using dogs more more less for

615
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: like crimes out in the bush, and more for like

616
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: gang crime, and then for crowd control, for breaking up

617
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: particularly strikes and riots. And once that happens, the kind

618
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: of the prescription against using dogs to hurt people goes

619
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: away very quickly.

620
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: Right.

621
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: Professor Sandra Swartz studies the use of dogs and apartheid policing,

622
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: and she claims, quote things changed fast with the increasingly

623
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: heavy hand of the apartheid state in nineteen sixty one

624
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: and SAPs study toward Europe shifted the focus of canine policing.

625
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: Sharpville had occurred and the police wanted a different kind

626
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: of dog, one that could impose physical and psychological order

627
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: on the African population. These crew dogs, mainly German shepherds,

628
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: were imported, bred and donated. The force was multiplied with

629
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: an emphasis on force. Yeah, they have this big protest

630
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: riot thing, and they're like, we need to tear some

631
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: people up with dogs, Like that's how we're going to

632
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: keep a lid on this whole.

633
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: No one likes apartheid thing, rather get shot.

634
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, of course, like almost certainly, yes, absolutely, I'm

635
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: much less scared of of well, like a normal dog bite,

636
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: I'm much less scared of than a bullet, But a

637
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: mauling by a German shepherd, I think I would prefer

638
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: taking my chances with a round of nine millimeter.

639
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 3: One bullet hole you can you can stitch that up.

640
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, geez, I mean, neither of them is a great option.

641
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, I've seen I've been around too many really

642
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: bad dog fights, you know, to want to now, I'm

643
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: not running them. You know, I'm not running them.

644
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 3: Okay, clarification, Robert.

645
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: They just happen a lot.

646
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 3: You know, you live at Robert dogfight ring.

647
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: People don't take care of their dogs. Everyone's on methamphetamine.

648
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: Not me, but everyone else. A lot of dogs have

649
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: a lot of fights, is what I'm saying.

650
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 3: What you're telling me is that you did method a dogfight.

651
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 4: That's basically what I got from that as well.

652
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: There's pieces of that in my life, Mollie, but not

653
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: the whole picture in Oklahoma. It wasn't in Oaklan. I mean,

654
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: I saw dog fights in Oklahoma, but I was too

655
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: young to be doing.

656
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 3: Met Molly.

657
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy six, midway through Lewis's policing career, dogs

658
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: became targets of gorilla attacks on the police. A school

659
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: uprising that year began with the killing of a police

660
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 2: dog and some like So. I can't obviously the dogs

661
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: aren't at fault, they're dogs, But I also can't blame

662
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: people who are being mauled by dogs from murdering police dogs.

663
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: And they would do it regrettably, respect They would do

664
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 2: it pretty brutally. They necklaced some of these dogs, which

665
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: was a method of actually it started out. It was

666
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: a way that like it within sort of like black

667
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: communities in South Africa, if you had other black people

668
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: kind of like talking to the cops right like rolling

669
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: on folks, you would necklace them, right, and they it

670
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: extends to you know, they do it to some captured dogs.

671
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: Eventually they do it to other people too. But it's basically,

672
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: you fill a tire with gasoline and you stick it

673
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: over a person and you light it on fire. It's

674
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: a way of saying, don't do what this guy did, or,

675
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: in the case of the dogs, don't do what this

676
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 2: dog did. Now, I think the people who might be

677
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 2: thinking of talking to the cops probably understand the message.

678
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 2: I don't think the dogs do. But nobody's nobody. When

679
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 2: you're fighting a you know, effectively trying to overthrow your government,

680
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: everything you do isn't going to be squeaky clean, right.

681
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 2: It's an ugly, ugly thing.

682
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 3: And it's like data Toulpicard. Sometimes terrorism is the answer.

683
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: Sometimes terrorism is the answer. Although I do think maybe

684
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 2: you didn't need to necklace the dogs, but I'm not

685
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: going to I'm mon, throw the apartheid government of you.

686
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: You know, you guys did what you what you thought

687
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: you had to do.

688
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 4: For necklace dog apologists.

689
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, these dogs were evil.

690
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: The dogs weren't evil, they were being used for an

691
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: evil purpose. And if you're the person being mauled by

692
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: the dog. I understand that, like you're not going to

693
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: think about the animals.

694
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 3: As well, base And to be fair, none of those

695
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: dogs that none of them meet a fine end. I

696
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 3: mean even still today no modern American policing g average

697
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 3: police dog dies from being left in a hot car.

698
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it happens a lot. I just don't understand how

699
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: that happens anywhere? Do you people not know? Like it's

700
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: the same thing when people do it to babies, Like

701
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 2: what is how are we still having this problem?

702
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 3: Anyway?

703
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: Whatever, Lewis is not a particularly noteworthy dog cop, and

704
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: without access to detailed police records, only a few of

705
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 2: which still exist, we have to turn to other documented

706
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 2: history for an idea of the kinds of things Lewis

707
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: was doing with his police dog. I found a story

708
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: related in an article by the Stellenbosch Institute for Advanced

709
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: Study based on a lecture by Professor Sandra Schwart. This

710
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: story is from nineteen ninety eight, so four years after

711
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: the official end of apartheid, but a lot of like

712
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: the different things that were put in place for apartheid

713
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: legally or still in place, and we can assume this

714
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: represents maybe a less extreme example of the kind of

715
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 2: violence Lewis would have been involved in. Police of the

716
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 2: East Rand dog unit arrested three Mozambican immigrants looking for work.

717
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: The police initially demanded a bribe, then turned the suspects

718
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: in debate by passing two dogs who didn't bite to

719
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: bring in Rex, a proper South African police dog who

720
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 2: knew how to hurt. The resulting video showed the tasting

721
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 2: blood method, a shocking video of snarling savagery and a

722
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 2: terrible failure for the immediate post apartheid state. The video,

723
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,959
Speaker 2: complete with laughter, was regularly shown at police brise until

724
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: it was leaked to the media and policemen were arrested

725
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 2: and imprisoned. The incident strongly reflected the broken relationship between

726
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: the citizenry and the police, the brute power of the

727
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 2: state and the state's power of the brute bad dogs

728
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: on the loose, said Swart. And so that is they

729
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: have this tasting blood method of like basically letting the

730
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 2: dogs like rip people up in order to get them

731
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 2: into a frenzy. And this video of police shaking down

732
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 2: people for bribes and then having their dog maul them.

733
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 2: Police are like prep playing it at police gatherings for

734
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: each other as like entertainment, Like you guys will watch

735
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 2: our colleagues fuck up these dudes with their terrifying dog

736
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: like that's that's that's how apartheid cops. You know, all

737
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: these guys had been apartheid cops. That's how they like relaxed,

738
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: you know, so like that. These are the kind of

739
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: people that Lewis is. This is who we're talking about,

740
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 2: right right.

741
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 3: It's not regrettable violence for them. It's it's like a

742
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 3: foam lobby.

743
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 2: But it's a perk of the job that you get

744
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: to have a dog rip a person to shreds. You know,

745
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: that's why you take this gig. He described his job

746
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: with the police in one interview as handling attacker dogs,

747
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,959
Speaker 2: which he's sicked on people he always described as protesters

748
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 2: and criminals. Nearly all of these people, he admitted, were black.

749
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: He said of this that it was quot hunting, but

750
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 2: a different species. And I don't fully know what he

751
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: meant by that. I think I know what he meant

752
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 2: by that, but there's actually a couple of things he

753
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 2: could mean there.

754
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that really works on two terrible lives.

755
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 2: Yes, are you saying it's like hunting a different species

756
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: than you normally hunt.

757
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 3: Or a different species like you.

758
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 2: Then you wouldn't say it's like hunting but a different species,

759
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: because usually hunting isn't the same species as you. Right,

760
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 2: most people don't hunt the same species they are.

761
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 3: I don't know.

762
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: I don't actually understand entirely what he was saying there.

763
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a different species of hunting, you know, I

764
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 2: don't know.

765
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's that's not good. It's not good on

766
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 3: any level.

767
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 2: He's not good at any level. And it's confusing wordplay.

768
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 3: Doesn't normally hunt people, but he doesn't see black people

769
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 3: like he does.

770
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 2: He does hunt people, but they are all black people. Now,

771
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: this is not an episode on the use of police dogs,

772
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: but I do find the subject fascinating. And before we

773
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: continue with Lewis's story, I want to read one more

774
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: quote about his job by Swart. Quote, police dogs were

775
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: creatures poised between citizenry and state, between technology and sentience,

776
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: agency and training, between good and evil, and always between

777
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 2: nose and teeth. And I think that's a great quote

778
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 2: about police dogs, but I also think it describes Lewis

779
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: pretty well, right, right, is this he is this creature

780
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 2: positioned between the citizenry, the citizenry and the state and

781
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 2: kind of reduced to animal violence in order to serve

782
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: a role protecting the state from its citizenry, you know.

783
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 3: And this sort of like barely contains like snapping its

784
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 3: jaws at the end of it, barely.

785
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: Barely capable of thought, right, Like, that's Lewis, and that's

786
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: these these dogs that are bred just to maame people.

787
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 2: Numerous friends and family members describe Lewis as not a

788
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: bright guy and someone who is often prone to violence.

789
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: His colleagues on the force may believed that this may

790
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: have been something he did out of insecurity, that he

791
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: was so violent because he thought he was dumb. One

792
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 2: colleagues said he was not a clever bloke, but he

793
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 2: would go to Helen back to get his man. It

794
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: was his way of proving that he was as good

795
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: as the others, right, Like, I don't have smarts, so

796
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to have to compensate by being extra fucking aggressive.

797
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 3: I've met some cops, right, that's a cop.

798
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds about right.

799
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 3: Now.

800
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 2: The picture of biographer Heidi Holland paints of Lewis suggests

801
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: a man who was perhaps performatively macho, if not reflexively so.

802
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 2: On the sports field, the hulking Lewis was able to

803
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: show his physical talent more convincingly, playing flanker for the

804
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 2: Police rugby team and earning provincial colors in the Eastern

805
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: Capes Tug of Wars squad. He also starred in four

806
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: wheel drive challenges, racing over hillsides and beaches and his

807
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: superpowered land Rover with its monster mag wheels and heavy

808
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 2: black roll bar. Dressed in shorts with the ever ready

809
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: holster on his hip, Lewis felt happy, according to his

810
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 2: first wife, to keep fit, he ran cross country barefoot.

811
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: A beer swilling man's man. He was by all accounts

812
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,760
Speaker 2: well liked in the police force and in East London's

813
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: white community generally. I hate that this guy is a

814
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 2: barefoot runner too.

815
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm so.

816
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 3: Did you say that the police force has a Tug

817
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 3: of War team? They do? Yes? Yes, Molly. Is this

818
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 3: a traditional South African sport?

819
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: Yes, it's the only sport that South Africans love. That's

820
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: probably not true. But I'm not feeling very charitable towards.

821
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 3: South Africa today, or should you on any day? Yeah?

822
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's actually it's the Eastern

823
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: Capes Tug of Wars squad, so that might be just

824
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 2: a Tug of War squad that he was also in.

825
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 2: And he's on the police rugby team.

826
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 3: Okay, so he's just playing like like just been like a.

827
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 2: Local yeah, kind of sporting league thing.

828
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good for men to have hobbies.

829
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: It's good for men to have hobbies. Considering what this

830
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: guy does for a job. Yeah, you really want him

831
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 2: on his hobbies as much as possible.

832
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 3: It's good for men to have some hobbies.

833
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, always a good idea. Lewis is well liked because

834
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 2: the white residents of East London understood that their prosperity

835
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: and comfort was undergirded by violence done by men like him.

836
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: So what if he was stupid and boorish, which he was.

837
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: Lewis was a serious You could call him a serial monogamist.

838
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 2: He's married four times before age forty, so he's not

839
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: great at being married, and he meets it.

840
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 3: Do these all and divorce? Oh yes, yes, okay, they're alive. Yes,

841
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 3: they are alive.

842
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: They are alive. You're not going to be surprised to

843
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: hear that. There's some spousal abuse in this story.

844
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 3: But oh, he wasn't a kind.

845
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 2: I feel like I barely even need to say that.

846
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 2: Obviously I'm going to He meets his second wife, Beverly,

847
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 2: while she's married to someone else. One member of their

848
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 2: church later told that journalist Heidi he would go on

849
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: fishing trips with Bev's husband and then stake away to

850
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: be with her. So he's like, driving this guy out

851
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: to the woods to go fish and then just runs

852
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 2: back home and a fuck his wife.

853
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 3: Seems the least efficient way to do that.

854
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: He's an enormous man.

855
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 3: You have not like normally a fishing trip is a

856
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 3: good alibi, but you're will him.

857
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 2: Somehow the tactic worked. So maybe Bev just didn't like

858
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 2: smart men.

859
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 3: It's just like bruised idiots like us. Yeah.

860
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 2: She leaves her husband for for Lewis, and the couple

861
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 2: gets married in nineteen seventy eight. They set up a

862
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 2: home with Beverly's three young sons on a small farm.

863
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 3: So he seems like the kind of guy who would

864
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 3: be totally chill raising another man's sons. I think that's issues.

865
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 3: He's actually fine with this, Like all of the kids say,

866
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 3: he never hurt us. So he's a wife beating, serial killer,

867
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 3: apartheid enforcer, but he's a good step dad.

868
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 2: And I don't think good, but like not bad in

869
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: any particular way.

870
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 3: I can still be surprised.

871
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I kind of was like, oh boy, I

872
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 2: bet this kid's doing guys doing some fucked up shit too.

873
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: And like now his kids, like said, seem to feel

874
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 2: pretty positively towards him, So I don't know.

875
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, I judged unfairly.

876
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are so he's basically has a homestead, right,

877
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 2: He and Bev are homesteading, right, And this is obviously

878
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: something people in the US do, I do it, but

879
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: it's part of the white South African dream. It is

880
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: a Boer tradition right before, right, right, and this like

881
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 2: that's a big part of like I mean, it's a

882
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 2: big part of like the American tradition too, right, Like

883
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: we're going to go out onto some land that he

884
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: used to be someone else's and build a homestead, you know.

885
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy nine, Lewis and Bev had their first child, Sabrina,

886
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 2: And Sabrina is going to be a very important part

887
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: of this story for reasons that are quite surprising, but

888
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 2: we'll get to that now. Her sons, Beverly sons, have

889
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: testified that he beat Lewis beat their mother right, although

890
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 2: they insist again he was never violent towards them. His

891
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: kids are really the only people that he's peaceful and

892
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 2: kind of supportive to violence is never far from his

893
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 2: behavior at the best of times, though. One way Van

894
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 2: Schure made a place for himself in the local community

895
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: was by using his police skills to train dogs for

896
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: other small farmers. One of the small farmers that he

897
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 2: helped was a guy named Basil Niemann, who was later

898
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 2: charged in court for sicking his German shepherds on an

899
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: elderly black farm worker. Nieman later ran for parliament. Like

900
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: this story of him going to court for mauling a

901
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: man with dogs gets kind of famous, so he does

902
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: sort of the right wing pivot from getting famous for

903
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 2: being shitty and he runs for parliament. Lewis campaigns for him,

904
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: like handing out posters that show a growling German shepherd

905
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: and the slogan I'll be your watchdog. Yeah, the meaning

906
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 2: of those sides was not missed by anybody, right Like, yeah, he.

907
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 3: Wasn't ted Kennedy running with flyers and say like, you know,

908
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 3: I'll drive you Gus, I'll drive the legislative vehicle. Yeah.

909
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 2: Now, for most of Lewis's life, South Africa had been

910
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: embroiled in the Namibian War of Independence, which his people

911
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 2: generally called the angle In Bush War. This was a

912
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 2: hideous little conflict that ranged from the late sixties to

913
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety, and during parts of it, South African police

914
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 2: were sent to the border and participated in aspects of

915
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: the fighting. Right, these are police being used to secure

916
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: the border, but the nature of the conflict means that

917
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 2: they are engaged in combat. Right, at least that happens

918
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: sometimes now. Lewis would later claim that he hated these duties,

919
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: which were dangerous and terrifying. His wife, Beverly, says that

920
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 2: was nonsense, and that he had actually volunteered to fight

921
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: at the border because he really likes fighting. Given what

922
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 2: we can verify about Lewis and what comes next, I'm

923
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 2: pretty sure Bev is the one telling the truth here.

924
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 2: Wanting to fight in the angle In Bush War is

925
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 2: a very Lewis thing, So I'm gonna guess she's probably

926
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: given us the truth. More or less either way. Lewis

927
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 2: quits the police in nineteen eighty. He says, because I

928
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: just didn't want to fight anymore, and Beverly is like, well,

929
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 2: I made him quit the police because he was cheating

930
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 2: on me constantly, and I wanted him to get a

931
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 2: job closer to home so that he would cheat on

932
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 2: me slightly.

933
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 3: Less and for at that point, girl, just get out.

934
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, Bev is kind of Bev's a piece of shit too,

935
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 2: that's it. She deserves the abuse, but she's also going

936
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: to be a terrible person in this story, so her

937
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 2: judgment's not great.

938
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 3: Right.

939
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 2: Lewis does try to do as she asks for a while.

940
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: He gets a job at a carpet store.

941
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 3: What are those skills does this man have? Yeah, Like,

942
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 3: there's no attack ons at the carpet store. One of

943
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 3: the interesting things because he's abusive to her, she is

944
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 3: much smarter than him. She becomes she's like incredibly wealthy

945
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 3: by the time she dies, Like she is a wildly

946
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 3: successful entrepreneur. She just starts and runs numerous successful companies.

947
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,919
Speaker 3: There's an interesting dynamic going on between them. We don't

948
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 3: get all of it. But he gets a job at

949
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 3: a carpet company, that his wife owns. But Lewis fan

950
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: sure not the kind of man who wants to work

951
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 3: at a carpet store, right, Like, he's just not not

952
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: a great salesman.

953
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: Not a great salesman, not a lot of adrenaline in

954
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 2: selling carpets.

955
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 3: You know, you can't bully a customer into buying a rug.

956
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Lewis was the kind of guy who

957
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 2: would tell you he was made for action. My own

958
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: argument might be that adrenaline and violence are both addictive,

959
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: and he was addicted to adrenaline in violence. But you know,

960
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: whatever you say about him, Lewis was good at violence.

961
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 2: So before long he started looking for another career path.

962
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 2: He applied for work as a daytime security guard, but

963
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 2: this was hardly any more exciting than the carpet store.

964
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 2: Desperate for action, he asked to rejoin the police. And

965
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: this is one of the more interesting but unexplained parts

966
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: of the story. The cops turn him down. Now we

967
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 2: don't really know why possible. You know, he's in his

968
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 2: like thirties, something like that, forty closing in on forty.

969
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,240
Speaker 2: And you know, by this point it's the early nineteen eighties,

970
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 2: mid eighties, and the apartheid regime is facing like a

971
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 2: lot more condemnation from the international community, and the gorilla

972
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: war rights has kind of from within has stepped up

973
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 2: several notch and a lot of these gorilla a lot

974
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: of attacks, right, A lot of the terrorist attacks on

975
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 2: the state are inspired by police violence. Right, Like the

976
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 2: people who are trying to tear down the system get

977
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 2: angry because the cops do something brutal and they carry

978
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 2: out an attack.

979
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 3: Right.

980
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: There is a decent chance people on the force were like,

981
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 2: Lewis was a great cop, you know, a decade ago

982
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 2: or whatever. But we are in a different world now

983
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: and if we have him on the force, he's going

984
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 2: to do something that gets us bombed, right, which is

985
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 2: probably true. You know, like that's not an un what

986
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: it would be the.

987
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 3: Best idea any of those guys ever had.

988
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we really do. He is not the man

989
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: for this hour. Now, that doesn't mean the racial regime

990
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: in East London had no job for him, though. Eventually

991
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 2: he was advised to seek work at a company owned

992
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 2: by a former police major, Falcon Security. Now this is

993
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: not a mall cop outfit. It's purview proceeded directly from

994
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: a number of the social changes that had swept South

995
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 2: Africa in the last few years. As I said in

996
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven, the criminal Code is amended to basically

997
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: allow security guards to murder people for unning away. Up

998
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 2: to the end of the seventies, most security firms had

999
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: just provided silent alarms and then police would come in

1000
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: to actually investigate and maybe arrest people. But this caused

1001
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 2: the cops to waste a lot of time on false alarms,

1002
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 2: and the police are like, we don't want to do

1003
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: this anymore. Lewis's boss at Falcon, Major CJH. Cloat, who's

1004
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 2: also a former cop, was one of the entrepreneurs who

1005
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 2: sailed into the gap with a new kind of full

1006
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 2: service security form firm. Major later told a reporter I

1007
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: know Van Schure was was the kind of bloke that

1008
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: liked to use his firearm. That I know because I

1009
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 2: killed one and he used to say, ha, I'm ahead

1010
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: of you.

1011
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 4: This is this is not lego Ghibli and those rings

1012
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 4: just murderer kills.

1013
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 3: You're just murderers. You are not in a sure so

1014
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 3: they're just they're making like what like furgated neighborhoods like

1015
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 3: a It hasually small businesses. I think I think it's

1016
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,399
Speaker 3: mostly like it's like a private murder police force. Yeah, yeah,

1017
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 3: accountable to no one and allowed by the state to

1018
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 3: shoot kids in the back.

1019
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 2: Well, they are accountable to the police, but the way

1020
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 2: that the police monitor them is by going good job.

1021
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 3: This is probably going to go good.

1022
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's going to be great. But you know what

1023
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 2: else is going to be great? Molly?

1024
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: Oh?

1025
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 3: Is it products and services?

1026
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 2: I hope it's not an ad for Falcon security. That

1027
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:23,240
Speaker 2: would be really awkward.

1028
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 3: A simply say ad yeah, simply.

1029
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: Safe, simply safe. Now we've got a guy with a gun. Uh,

1030
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 2: we're back anyway. It is unclear to me when Lewis

1031
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 2: made his first kill. Most official reporting suggests all or

1032
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: nearly all of his killings occurred in a three year

1033
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 2: spree near the end of the eighties. Some of what

1034
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: I've read leads me to question that. I think it

1035
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: definitely he started shooting people earlier, but he kind of

1036
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a period of ramping up to the

1037
00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 2: speed of murder that he's going to be at, you know,

1038
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: those during that three year period. What we know is

1039
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 2: that Section forty nine provided Clote and Van Schuur with

1040
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 2: all the legal cover for murder they needed. So long

1041
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 2: as they argued that they had tried to get a

1042
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 2: suspect to stop and surrender and that suspect had run,

1043
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 2: they had what amounted to legal impunity. The precise nature

1044
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 2: of the law meant that shooting someone in the back

1045
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 2: was not just legal. You could argue it was your duty.

1046
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 2: Like legally speaking, Beverly was, by all accounts a huge racist.

1047
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 2: She's going to become an exceedingly wealthy burst after this

1048
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: and a real prominent bigot. But she does not seem

1049
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: to have been a fan of murder, and her husband's

1050
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 2: behavior either disgusted her or at least frightened her. I

1051
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 2: should probably also emphasize that she knew he was cheating

1052
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 2: more or less constantly on her, all of which factored

1053
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 2: into her leaving him in nineteen eighty three. Right now,

1054
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 2: the murder, it may, I mean she says that, like

1055
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 2: she says that him taking this job was like the

1056
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: final straw, right, and maybe I.

1057
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 3: Could accept one or the other. But yeah, chanting she

1058
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 3: did on by a serial killer, absolutely not.

1059
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 2: Now. The inciting incident seems to have been when Sabrina,

1060
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 2: who is not quite four at this point, caught Lewis

1061
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 2: making out with her preschool teacher and told Bev how

1062
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 2: he is such a piece of shit. This led to

1063
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: horrific fights, and eventually Sabrina would claim her dad threatened

1064
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 2: to murder her mom. Bev rightfully took Sabrina and her

1065
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: brothers away to Queensland as soon as they were gone.

1066
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: In the divorce final Lewis married Sabrina's teacher. She and

1067
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 2: her mother had to start a new life, with her

1068
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 2: haunted by the knowledge that she had broken up her parents' marriage.

1069
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: Even though obviously that's not your fault. You didn't do

1070
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 2: anything wrong that was coming, but yeah, you know that's

1071
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: she's four. Lewis continued to run through ryot wives at

1072
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 2: a steady rate after this. He divorced the teacher two

1073
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 2: years later after having two daughters with her. No not

1074
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 2: I love match, and then in nineteen ninety he proposes

1075
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 2: to the daughter of a wealthy local businessman. This may

1076
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 2: have been an attempt by Lewis, who's still working as a

1077
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 2: security guard at that point and regularly shooting suspects to

1078
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: gain a more reputable place for himself in society. As

1079
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 2: he aged If so, it didn't work out, largely because

1080
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 2: he seems to have been a bad husband. One local

1081
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 2: reporter described his four wives as either vulnerable, overweight, or

1082
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,399
Speaker 2: meek okay, a little rude. The papers at the time

1083
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 2: always like to tell you when his wives are fat,

1084
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 2: which I think is gross. The arm chair psychiatry done

1085
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 2: by journalists after his murders became public described this as

1086
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: him seeking to fill his life with mentally weaker people.

1087
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 2: I don't know if I buy that, because again, Bev

1088
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 2: is an exceptionally competent and powerful businesswoman, So I don't

1089
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 2: know if it is a case of him filling his

1090
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 2: life with mentally weaker people.

1091
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 3: Some of them were meek and some were just fat.

1092
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,240
Speaker 3: Maybe she was strong and fack.

1093
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: Bev gets fat, which is part of why I think

1094
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 2: these journalists are like, she's mentally weaker than him, but

1095
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 2: like she's like a multi milli millionaire entrepreneur. I don't

1096
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 2: understand why you think she's mentally weak.

1097
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 3: So we're really drawing a lot of conclusions about the

1098
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 3: wives here.

1099
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I might say the single mother who was able

1100
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 2: to leave her husband to start a new life and

1101
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 2: become a millionaire on her own is probably mentally stronger

1102
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 2: than the man who just shoots people in the back

1103
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 2: for a living.

1104
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 3: Well, I mean he does it for the love of

1105
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 3: the game. He does do it for the.

1106
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 2: Love of the game. You know, find a thing you

1107
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 2: love and you'll never work a day in your life.

1108
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,320
Speaker 2: Bev is kind of thriving. After the breakup, Lewis continues

1109
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 2: to do the only thing he'd ever been good at. Violence.

1110
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 2: By the late nineteen eighties, Falcon Security had a contract

1111
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 2: to protect seventy percent of all white owned businesses in

1112
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 2: East London. Local business owners started to see Lewis as

1113
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 2: their version of the Punisher, a killing machine you sent

1114
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 2: in to trim the grass, periodically murdering young men who

1115
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 2: had the temerity to commit property crime and thus keeping

1116
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 2: criminality under wraps.

1117
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 3: Is A.

1118
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 2: Jacobson, a South African journalist, claims he was a kind

1119
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 2: of vigilante killer. He was a dirty, hairy character. These

1120
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 2: weren't intruders who were, in a lot of cases pretty desperate,

1121
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 2: digging through bins, maybe stealing some food. Petty criminals do

1122
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:07,919
Speaker 2: these people don't realize this is real life.

1123
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 3: This is not a movie, isn't a TV show? What

1124
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 3: are you doing about you're not reducing the amount of

1125
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 3: violence in the community by killing people in the parking lot.

1126
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 2: I think the white people in town see it as like, yeah,

1127
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 2: that's what you're doing is making them keep their heads down. Right,

1128
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 2: you want to kill the ones who commit crimes, you know,

1129
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 2: because that'll scare the others and it'll just generally it'll

1130
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 2: keep the system in place, it'll let them know their place, right,

1131
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 2: Like that's why they like what he's doing, Right.

1132
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 3: I guess it's just I don't know. I mean, it's

1133
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 3: like what we're seeing right now with Israel, Right, It's

1134
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 3: like the people who mature psychologically in this kind of

1135
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 3: environment just have a different understanding of violence than we do.

1136
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 2: I guess.

1137
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, they see him as part of the wall because

1138
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 3: there's like a dead guy in the parking lot. Yeah,

1139
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 3: like you're seeing this, Yeah, he's he is.

1140
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 2: Part of the wall that they see their life as

1141
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 2: depending on. Now, it's an unfortunate reality with cases like

1142
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: this that some chunk of the populace will always say, well,

1143
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 2: you just can't let people steal. And so this is

1144
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 2: where I provide you with more detail on the kind

1145
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 2: of murders that Lewis committed. Sometimes more than one a week.

1146
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: Here's an experts may be. Yeah, he shoots people. He

1147
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 2: shoots people so many times.

1148
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 3: So is there a separate thriving industry of like whoever

1149
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 3: comes and picks up the bodies?

1150
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of

1151
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: work for the hospitals, there's a lot of work for

1152
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 2: the morgues. There's a lot of Actually a lot of

1153
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 2: these guys go into unmarked grades.

1154
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 3: He just thinks he's like the season one and two

1155
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 3: the Arrow on CW. What is happening here? I can't

1156
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 3: comment on this an amazing shot, and like everyone he

1157
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 3: shoots dies or is he shooting ten guys a week?

1158
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 3: He's ten guys a week.

1159
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 2: He's shooting at the height of his shooting people, he's

1160
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 2: shooting about one person a week, and he's killing about

1161
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 2: one person a month.

1162
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 3: Bruh, Stop, that's weird. That's just being a murderer.

1163
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: I don't think it's weird. That's yeah, that's just being

1164
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 2: a murder. Murderer. Yeah, I'm going to read you for

1165
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 2: an example of how the kind of murders he's committing.

1166
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:16,439
Speaker 3: Here's an excerpt from.

1167
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: A BBC report in a particularly brutal case. On eleventh

1168
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 2: July nineteen eighty eight, Van Shore shot a fourteen year

1169
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: old boy who had broken into a restaurant searching for

1170
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 2: petty change. The boy, who we have not named to

1171
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 2: protect his privacy, told the police he hid in the

1172
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 2: toilet when he saw Van Shure with his gun. He

1173
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 2: said the security guard called him out, told him to

1174
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 2: stand next to the wall, and then shot him repeatedly.

1175
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 2: He told me to stand up, but I couldn't, said

1176
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 2: the boy. While I was lying there, he kicked me

1177
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 2: in the mouth. He picked me up and propped me

1178
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 2: up against a table, and then he shot me again.

1179
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 2: So this is not a security guard comes across. It's

1180
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 2: not supposed to be right.

1181
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 3: Wait, so even under this like bizarre framework where it's

1182
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 3: cool to shoot the seat in the back while he

1183
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 3: runs away, like you can't this.

1184
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 2: No, because he's not running away, Like this is supposed

1185
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 2: to be illegal. But here's the thing. Lewis says, he

1186
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 2: ran away. The black boy he shot says he did

1187
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 2: all this horrible ship to me. Guess who the cops believe.

1188
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh, they don't have like no ballistics or anything.

1189
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 3: They're not doing any doing science.

1190
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not doing that on these cases A working

1191
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 2: a part time in the floor.

1192
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 3: They don't come with.

1193
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 2: Thelster walking around in there doing you don't give a ship.

1194
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 2: And in fact, this boy, as he is like in

1195
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 2: the fucking hospital recovering from being shot within an inch

1196
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: of his fucking life, gets charged with breaking an entering

1197
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 2: and basically all of the survivors get charged in like

1198
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 2: sentenced for breaking an entering after Lewis nearly murders them.

1199
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 3: So that's cool.

1200
00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 2: Uh. Now, the good news is that in this case,

1201
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 2: the but Lewis shot survived. But Lewis is going to

1202
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 2: kill other children, and in part two we'll talk about that,

1203
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 2: and we'll talk about his daughter, Sabrina. It's going to

1204
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 2: be great, Molly, It's going to be a lovely time.

1205
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 2: But first off, most importantly, how are you doing?

1206
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 3: Oh, you know, not as good as about an hour ago,

1207
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 3: but still pretty good?

1208
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1209
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 3: Great, excellent.

1210
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 4: Well, Molly, do you have anything you want to before.

1211
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 3: Plug the idea of not using dogs as weapons? No,

1212
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 3: but I also have a new podcast. Yeah it feels

1213
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 3: so gross to say, yeah, well, welcome to the club.

1214
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think you should not use dogs as weapons,

1215
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 2: but you might use a weapon as a dog, you know,

1216
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 2: try that out, you know, pick up.

1217
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 3: Instead of any of that, you should open your podcast

1218
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 3: app of choice and subscribe to Weird Little Guys, my

1219
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 3: new weekly show.

1220
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, subscribe to Weird Little Guys. Then put a put

1221
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 2: a dog lee sure out of Thompson submachine gun and

1222
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 2: just drag it into the park, you know, and give

1223
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 2: everyone a good time.

1224
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 4: And uh, because people, people have been asking, uh. The

1225
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 4: the Apple ad free version of our network, cooler Zone

1226
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 4: Media is available now and the Android version is getting

1227
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 4: so unbelievably close, so close, so close, friends.

1228
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 3: Yep.

1229
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 2: Well everyone, this has been Behind the Bastards, a podcast

1230
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: about a piece of ship. And this this this week

1231
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 2: we got a real, real piece of ship for you.

1232
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 2: So be back, enjoy, enjoy the ship. Suck up this ship,

1233
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 2: you know, slip up the ship everyone. There will be

1234
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 2: more on Thursday.

1235
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 3: Bye bye.

1236
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1237
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,479
Speaker 4: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1238
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 4: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1239
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast m