WEBVTT - McAfee Bonus: Q&A 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:05.160 Hi, it's me again, Jamie Tarrabay, and you're listening to 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:12.760 a bonus episode of Foundering. In April twenty twenty three, 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:16.560 we put on a live show at RSA in San Francisco. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.680 It's one of the biggest cybersecurity conferences in the world. 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:23.959 I did a live reading of the first episode of 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.840 the John McAfee story, and then we did a Q 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:29.440 and a with one of the people who was featured 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:32.919 in that episode. Look out for a recording of the 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:37.440 live show on bloomberg dot com for now, though, I 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:40.440 wanted to share the Q and a you're going to 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.199 hear from Alan Lisker. He's an author and expert in 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.120 cybersecurity who had some interesting things to say about the 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.240 impact McAfee had on the industry. I also talk a 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.760 little bit about my reporting process for this show, and 0:00:55.800 --> 0:01:01.360 the moderator you'll hear is Foundering's editor Mark Million. Thank 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.360 you for listening to the series and I hope you 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:05.440 enjoyed the discussion. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:15.680 Hey, everyone, a Mark Million. I edit Foundering. 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:17.720 I'm also the slideshow operator. 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:18.520 Alan. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.920 I wanted to start with you. You had this very memorable 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.399 quote in the in the episode buy My Thing Instead. 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.800 Can you expand on that, like, how did McAfee shape 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:31.520 today's approach to digital security. 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:35.880 I love that we're highlighting that quote at RSA, which 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.400 is the biggest buy my thing convention for security community 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:44.320 in the world. Please don't throw tomatoes at me. Well sure, 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:44.759 I mean. 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:46.760 So think of it now. 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.760 SISA now has an initiative out there to build better 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.640 and more secure software, to mandate that software is more built, 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:57.320 is more secure and built. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.000 And that is forty. 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:03.600 Years after you know, Macale launched his antivirus program, so 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:04.600 we're still we're. 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:05.840 Just now catching up to that. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:11.560 But that has been the model in security forever, and 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.200 in a lot of ways it makes us less secure. 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:19.080 So if I walk into any company right now, they 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.560 have antivirus, and they have EDRs, they have endpoint protection, 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:26.640 they probably have three or four different agents there on 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.600 each individual endpoint. Then you have your web application, firewall, 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:35.120 your firewall, your IDs, your male security program, and so on, 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.679 so you have you know, you walk into an organization 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.880 and you have one hundred different security tools, one hundred 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.639 different consoles, and yet things like ransomware, which is where 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.440 I specialize our running rampant because we can't seem to 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:52.239 stop it because there's too much and the one thing 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:54.840 that caught the ransomware actor is the one console you 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:55.600 haven't looked. 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:56.840 At this week, and so. 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.600 We've made it much more were complex to operate a 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:02.600 secure environment. 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.560 Jamie, you talk in the recorded version of this episode 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:12.120 about your background and career a long time foreign correspondent 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:17.760 and conflict reporter. How did that context shape have you 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.040 thought about approaching a story like macafee's. 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:23.400 I mean, I think one of the things that he 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:25.960 not to say that he was like a dictator or 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.359 a terrorist or anything, but he did have a lot 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.080 of things in common with those sorts of men, which 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.120 is there's a lot of ego, and there's a lot 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:40.400 of a greater sense of unaccountability and the vanity that 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:44.800 comes with being the leader. And what we found in 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.000 our reporting is that he managed to continue to build 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:53.560 these small worlds where he was in charge, and you know, 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:55.640 it was just a lot of the similar kind of 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.200 characteristics of that sort of behavior and personality. The cult 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:04.080 of personality was definitely present in a lot of McAfee's 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.800 life and through a lot of the people that we 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:07.280 spoke to. 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:12.080 I mean, I see in your reporting almost a direct 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.720 through line from like John mcavee to Elon Musk. I 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.960 mean that you see a lot of similarities in that 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:22.120 kind of cult of personality, and you know, the I'm 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.160 in charge and running things and so I think that. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.200 But I think that not just those two, but I 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.679 think there's a lot of that in general in tech 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:30.480 for worse often. 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.560 Yeah, that's I think a through line of the series. 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.400 As Jamie talked in the beginning, you know Adam Newman, 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:43.479 even Jeff Bezos is there's some common traits that exist 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:50.560 between these leaders. Alan clearly McAfee's work had an impact 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.159 on security industry. Do you think his personality shape the 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.680 business at all? Like his boosterism and salesmanship and antagonism 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.200 and paranoia like reflected in today's companies or CEOs. 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:05.880 I mean, and I love this company, so I'm going 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.360 to pick on them, but but go downstairs and look 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.240 at the crowd strike booth and the fact that they 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.920 have ten foot tall action figures of adversaries. 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.880 I mean that is great company. 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.240 But but yeah, that that that's sort of Oh, these 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.320 are really scary things that you have to fight, and 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:25.520 they are like there. 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.360 It is a real problem. It is a real threat. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.560 But but we we we we do have this almost 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:35.240 fetishization if that's a word, of of the adversary rather 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:40.559 than sort of taking a a more fact based look 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.080 at things. So I do think that that that is 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:44.080 absolutely the. 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:49.120 Case, and there have been and I think this is 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:49.800 in any. 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.640 Industry, but in particular to the areas where McAfee was 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:57.520 in technology and then cryptocurrency later, because it's areas that 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:58.840 a lot of people don't understand. 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:00.720 You do get some Charlotte Tens in there. 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.279 You do get some companies that kind of build everything 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.800 and I'm not saying mcvy did this, but are able 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.320 to build their whole company on lies. 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.080 Essentially, Jamie. 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.039 One thing we established in the episode we just heard 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.680 and made very clear throughout the series is that mcavee 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.800 is a controversial figure. What were some of the most 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.560 surprising things you learned about him during your reporting. 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.599 I think one of one of the challenges was figuring 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:38.960 out what was actually real, and you know, we had 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.840 to go back to a time that was pre internet, 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.080 and you know, a lot of those work experiences that 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:48.240 we talked about the employment history, we couldn't verify so 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.800 many of them because they went back to the sixties 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.520 and beforehand, and so that was really frustrating. One of 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.320 the things that I thought was really telling that we 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.280 everyone that we spoke to who was close to him 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.520 sort of began with this, Oh, he was so great, 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.520 he was such a smart person, he was brilliant, he 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:09.760 was the love of my life. 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:11.520 Yeah, the ex wives, Yeah. 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:15.480 And then it was, oh, he was horrible, and you know, 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.000 he cheated on me, or he betrayed me or did this, 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:19.520 and then by the end it was like he was 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:21.600 the worst. So your people just kind of went through 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.480 this whole journey of how they felt about him, but 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.920 their immediate recollections were that he was this positive person 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:31.920 on their lives, and then they remember, oh, no, actually 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.600 he kind of you know, destroyed me. So I mean 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.120 that was really surprising that it was. It wasn't just 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.560 one or two people, it was nearly everyone we spoke to. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.840 I want to give people a chance to ask questions. 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.320 We get a couple of microphones in the room. You're 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.400 welcome to step up and asked your own questions. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:54.000 Alan. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:58.000 Something that McAfee talked about, especially leader in his life 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:03.080 was this push and pulled between security and privacy. I 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:07.240 think this was for him personally, often in the context 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.000 of not paying taxes and a sort of creative interpretation 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.320 of privacy is like a license to break the law. 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:19.240 But this theme of safety versus privacy civil liberties is 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:20.360 a pretty relevant. 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.200 One today, right, Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean we we 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.240 the the FBI and the Department of Justice is trying 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.240 to figure out still trying to figure out how to 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.880 find back doors into encryption tools and so on, and 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:36.559 considers that to be really important without any actual evidence 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.880 that having those back doors would actually help them solve 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.920 cases faster. You know, the the just a couple of 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.920 years ago, the you know, the fight between Department of 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.920 Justice and Apple over hey are you gonna help us 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.520 jail break this phone? And know we're not, and and yeah, 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.120 it's a real challenge. And you know, as somebody in 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.400 the security industry, I think privacy is really important. 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:01.480 I think we shouldn't be giving. 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:05.720 Governments back doors to to encryption algorithms and you know, 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.559 giving them access to these kind of databases because if 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.040 one if country, one country has access, then essentially all 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:14.480 countries have access to it. 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:17.760 It's funny to bring up to SANDBERD, you know, example, 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.640 because that's in our suit. Mcaveee like inserts himself into 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.000 the story. Yeah, try to bring the attention back to himself. 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.240 Course, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And that was a great example 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:29.200 of he always had to kind of be front and 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:30.240 center on the story. 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.040 So yes, absolutely, But it. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.360 Is also really smart about like the zeitgeist, right, he 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:36.840 knew where and. 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:37.760 What and that. 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:39.800 I mean, like I kind of felt by the end 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.000 that he should have really just chosen a career in 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:46.200 Hollywood because he was so good at figuring out how 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:50.640 to use fear and and and sort of what it 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.839 was that what that drew attention, and he was really 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:59.079 he just knew, he understood people so well, and because 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.479 you know, so much what he did was so fantastical, 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:03.880 I really thought that Hollywood would have been his true home. 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:06.560 Yes, he was very charismatic. 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:11.440 Absolutely, he would have made billions producing movies and so on. 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.559 Update war games only instead of you know, just a 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.000 just a basic computer, it's now a government funded AI 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:24.040 that is starting World War three, right, I mean, you know, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:28.040 that would have been the perfect movie for him. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.479 Jamie McAfee associated with some pretty shady characters. 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:35.079 You talked about how. 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.800 Separating fact from fiction was a challenge in your reporting. 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.840 What other sorts of reporting challenges? Is this great for you? 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.960 I mean the shady characters, unreliable narrators, that. 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.280 Was what help me. 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:49.720 I'm not one of the shady characters. 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.320 Characters you are not, but I think it was really 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.600 hard to find someone who was connected in some way 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:59.520 with him, who could be truly honest and and you know, 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.920 really just sort of call it what it was. And 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.360 that was always really hard. And whenever we would sort 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.680 of say to someone, well, apparently there's video of you 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.160 doing this, so like, no, it's not true, never happening. 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.160 So that was always a challenge. And I think at 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.480 least one of our interviewees had an ancle bracelet for 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.360 a while, so that was also challenging. 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.679 Yeah, it's interesting to prep for this. I grabbed I 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.640 ordered a couple of biographies on McAfee, And when you 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:30.720 start reading through the biographies, I guess the people that 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.240 he would allow in to write biographies were also kind 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.560 of self serving and shady. And I'm reading the biography 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.160 and I'm like, this is more about you and how 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:42.480 great you are as a biographer, and I'm like, all right, well, 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.120 but but you know, I do think he did foster 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.840 that kind of environment, especially later in life, which I 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:49.040 thought was interesting. 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.760 Really good at co opting media, really really really good 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:53.120 at it. 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.720 We have a question from the ans. Could you identify yourself? 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.480 Yeah, Oh, my name is Rushmama, cybersecurity architect life. We 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:01.280 met last month. 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.439 You might remember me, but I remember you. 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:09.160 But Jamie, you're an amazing storyteller. I'm just curious to 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:14.640 know how did you come to the title Foundering, especially 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.559 when you mentioned that so many times you came across 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:22.800 during your interviews that he's not necessarily a leader, not 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:26.640 necessarily somebody who would put the company together to take 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.880 it to the next step. So was there any struggle 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:31.199 about coming to this title? 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:33.040 What solidified the title? 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.760 I'm going to defer to at least one person in 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:37.600 the room who came up with that title. 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:43.920 Yeah, it's the title for a series we've been doing 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.560 for a few years, where I mean it's like a 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.200 double meaning ever playing off a founder because it's the 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.959 founder of a company, but foundering also refers to a 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:59.720 shift thinking. So oftentimes these entrepreneurial stories, there's some great 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:04.600 chanceallenges in our first subject, which Ellen here, Ellen Hewitt 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.200 from Bloomberg, who was the host of We focused on 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:09.920 Adam Newman from We Work, who was definitely foundering, and 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.360 then sank. Not all of our subjects sank entirely. Some 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.520 got to leave on their own terms, like Jeff Bezos 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.640 who Brad Stone, the host of that series, is here too. 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:21.920 And so yeah, that was the story behind the title. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.120 Another question from the audience was. 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.400 More about kind of the kernel of his brilliance. So 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.000 we heard about different aspects of what made him successful, 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:37.000 his salesmanship, the relationships he developed, but what was at 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.800 the start of his success in building his company. Was 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.320 there some sort of technical brilliance or was it more 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:46.720 smoke and mirrors? 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.720 I mean, according to the interviews that we did, the 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:57.640 product was like good. There was a whole controversy about 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:01.520 whether he even like created it himself or whether one 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.720 of the programmers that he employed did it. And it's 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.560 a rabbit hole like it really. I even heard from 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.199 one person that I spoke to that when he was 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.040 working at Lockheed Martin, one of his colleagues at Lockheed 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.320 Martin had actually came up with it and John had 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.240 stolen it from him. And then when it so, I mean, 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:20.760 this is why I said it was so hard to 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.480 verify exactly what was happening. But what we do know 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:29.520 for sure is that Dennis l the computer programmer who 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:34.520 worked with McFee, was instrumental in sort of creating that 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:39.400 first version, and obviously it fit in need. But I 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.640 don't really know much about fighting viruses back then. But 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.320 they were like for specific viruses, right, so you had 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:50.200 to constantly iterate and find new solutions, is that right? 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.840 Yeah, I mean, so what you were looking at in 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.880 back in the early eighties was you had two You 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.400 had McAfee and you had Norton, and then you had 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:03.240 a whole bunch of scammy uh uh pretend anti virus 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.120 programs that didn't actually do anything, just kind of like 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:13.560 now actually, But but yeah, and you know, basically the 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.280 way it worked was it was entirely a subscription model. 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.840 They would identify a new virus and then they would 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.160 and they would add it to the signature. So it 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.920 was all signature based and that was kind of the 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.560 brilliance of it. When you're only dealing with one virus 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.080 a month, or one mutation of a virus a month, 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:34.240 you can add new signatures monthly and do pretty well, 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:35.960 and so they were able to stay ahead of it. 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.480 The problem was when you moved from that one a 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.760 month to you know, hundreds of variations a day, then 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.600 it became much much more difficult to keep up. But yes, 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:50.040 in the in the early eighties and mid eighties, McAfee 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.320 and Norton were your options for better, for for better 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:56.680 you know, internet security and to protect. 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.560 You from these viruses that were a real problem. 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.880 I think the uh, the question of who programmed it 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.800 is like similar to the sort of like Steve Jobs 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.640 versus Steve Wozniak like debate, which is who who was 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.120 the genius? And I think they were they were both geniuses. 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.680 And like mcaview's ability to market the to create the 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.440 Ghostbusters Dan and drive it to the sites and like 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.360 go on TV and get people interested and scare everyone 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.000 about the Michelangel virus, that was an effect that you know, 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.600 he created an industry that's like pretty amazing. 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.360 Well, and we see that even today there are incident 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.240 response companies that have like their promotional incident response truck 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.920 like like you know, it looks like an ambulance or 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.080 or something like that. So that again when we talk 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.760 about through lines, that that continues through uh where where 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:47.160 where they have that ability? 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:51.080 Alan, How unique of a figure do you think McAfee was, Like, 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.040 have you come across other mcafeees during the course of 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:54.520 your time? 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:55.920 Was or is? 0:16:57.840 --> 0:16:57.920 So? 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.240 I think in in the early cybersecurity industry, I think 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:03.360 he was fairly unique. 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:05.520 I do think there are maybe. 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.480 With less cocaine, although I'm not at the CEO level, 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:13.320 so I could be completely wrong about that. I think 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.119 there are. We still see them pop up. The type 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:22.840 of salesman you have to especially if you're a startup, 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:24.760 you have to be a bit of a salesman to 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:29.920 sell your product, right, and McVie did make a good product, 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:32.720 But I do think we have a lot of the 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:36.520 people who are more of the salespeople without the good 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.560 product behind it in in security industry, again because it 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:44.919 is such a complex industry, but I think the best 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.959 CEOs also have to be able to sell their product. 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:49.600 I don't think that's a bad thing. You know, as 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.679 a technical person, I get all queasy and uncomfortable around 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.560 selling stuff, but you can't do that as a CEO. 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:59.800 So we have a question from my boss, Brad. 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.000 I would encourage everybody to listen to the podcast, it's 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:09.359 really crazy, but in particular the last episode is wild 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:13.400 because McAfee authors this incredible last chapter where he runs 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.760 for president, he gets into crypto, and he gets arrested, 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.000 and then he dies under mysterious circumstances. 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:20.000 So I'm wondering, you know. 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.920 Jamie, what did you end up concluding about this last 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:29.840 chapter in his life and the mysterious, somewhat mysterious circumstances 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:30.359 of his death. 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.800 And then Alan, the one for you is. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.680 Like, why do you think we're still talking about John McAfee. 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:39.680 Why does he continue to resonate in this industry? 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.560 I mean, I was trying to. I really struggle with 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.879 this because it's really hard to sort of imagine a 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:52.280 seventy ydd year old man running around the world rather 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:58.439 than like pay taxes. I couldn't understand why he felt 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:02.600 he had to react sorely to something like that, And 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.800 all I could think was it was his narcissism and 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.639 his ego and this this idea, this belief that he 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.479 had that people cared about him, you know, and that 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:18.040 without his online audience or his fans or whenever he 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.359 would go to these conferences and speak, he was you know, 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:23.760 in Alan. You saw him speaking in a couple of 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.800 places as well that you know, he had this adulation 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:33.800 and I don't know, I was really it just seems 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.280 like the most obvious thing is just go to court, 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.199 but that's he's never done that. He had all of 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.359 these instances where he was meant to go to court 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.440 to face up to charges and he just point blank 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.680 refused to. And they think that if you entrench yourself 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.720 in your positions so stubbornly, I think seventy five year 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.919 olds can be stubborn, then, you know. But and then 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.880 I think the sort of the conspiracy around his death 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.479 was just part of fo menting and making sure that 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:06.080 he could do what he could to keep his name 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:10.440 out there as long as possible. I mean, it's really 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:15.360 an exercise in just like extreme narcissism. But a lot 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:19.240 of people, you know, brought into it. We get a 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:23.000 lot of reactions still online to the story that he's 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.639 not dead, so that's always fun. 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.840 Well, I mean, you look at the contrast between John 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.760 McAfee and Peter Norton. Does anybody know what Peter Norton's 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.400 doing these days? I mean, you know there's a guy 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.879 who paid his taxes made his money, and you know, 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:46.920 is off doing whatever we talked about him because he 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.280 wanted to be in the public eye and he wanted 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.760 to keep that public persona and that was that was 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.359 important to him. And I do think that there is 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.760 for a lot of the security community. I think there's 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:01.520 a very libertarian streak in the security community. So a 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.040 lot of what he said resonated with with with many 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:09.119 people in the security community. A little overboard for for 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.840 for for many, but but I do think that that 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.480 that kind of resonation, you know, was important, and there 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:17.159 were people that agreed with a lot of what he 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:18.960 had to say. You know, I think he had a 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.879 very good stance on privacy. For example, Personally, I'm not 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.840 a fan of cryptocurrencies, but that's because I deal with 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.439 ransomware and I only see cryptocurrency is being used for 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.680 bad things. But you know, so in that way, he's 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:37.160 managed to stay relevant because he was always chasing after 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:38.320 the next relevant thing. 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:43.879 We're almost out a time, but I want Jamie to 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.439 ask one more question. What is the one thing you 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.960 hope listeners take away from the series? 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:57.200 Oh my god, I mean, I think in a lot 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.680 of ways, it's it's a really great story. Like I 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:02.000 think what happened to John McAfee, Like he came from 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:07.000 nothing and he built this incredible company and it helped start, 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:09.960 you know, an industry. And I think that sort of 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.760 the the good parts of what he did and what 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:18.760 he accomplished I really worth sort of paying attention to. 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:21.399 Like he saw an opportunity, he had an idea, and 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:24.719