1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Hi, it's me again, Jamie Tarrabay, and you're listening to 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: a bonus episode of Foundering. In April twenty twenty three, 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: we put on a live show at RSA in San Francisco. 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: It's one of the biggest cybersecurity conferences in the world. 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: I did a live reading of the first episode of 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: the John McAfee story, and then we did a Q 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: and a with one of the people who was featured 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: in that episode. Look out for a recording of the 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: live show on bloomberg dot com for now, though, I 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: wanted to share the Q and a you're going to 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: hear from Alan Lisker. He's an author and expert in 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: cybersecurity who had some interesting things to say about the 13 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: impact McAfee had on the industry. I also talk a 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: little bit about my reporting process for this show, and 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: the moderator you'll hear is Foundering's editor Mark Million. Thank 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: you for listening to the series and I hope you 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: enjoyed the discussion. 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, a Mark Million. I edit Foundering. 19 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 3: I'm also the slideshow operator. 20 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: Alan. 21 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 3: I wanted to start with you. You had this very memorable 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 3: quote in the in the episode buy My Thing Instead. 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 3: Can you expand on that, like, how did McAfee shape 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: today's approach to digital security. 25 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 4: I love that we're highlighting that quote at RSA, which 26 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 4: is the biggest buy my thing convention for security community 27 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 4: in the world. Please don't throw tomatoes at me. Well sure, 28 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 4: I mean. 29 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: So think of it now. 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 4: SISA now has an initiative out there to build better 31 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 4: and more secure software, to mandate that software is more built, 32 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 4: is more secure and built. 33 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: And that is forty. 34 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 4: Years after you know, Macale launched his antivirus program, so 35 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 4: we're still we're. 36 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: Just now catching up to that. 37 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 4: But that has been the model in security forever, and 38 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 4: in a lot of ways it makes us less secure. 39 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 4: So if I walk into any company right now, they 40 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 4: have antivirus, and they have EDRs, they have endpoint protection, 41 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 4: they probably have three or four different agents there on 42 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 4: each individual endpoint. Then you have your web application, firewall, 43 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 4: your firewall, your IDs, your male security program, and so on, 44 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 4: so you have you know, you walk into an organization 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 4: and you have one hundred different security tools, one hundred 46 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 4: different consoles, and yet things like ransomware, which is where 47 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 4: I specialize our running rampant because we can't seem to 48 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 4: stop it because there's too much and the one thing 49 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 4: that caught the ransomware actor is the one console you 50 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 4: haven't looked. 51 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: At this week, and so. 52 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 4: We've made it much more were complex to operate a 53 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 4: secure environment. 54 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 3: Jamie, you talk in the recorded version of this episode 55 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 3: about your background and career a long time foreign correspondent 56 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 3: and conflict reporter. How did that context shape have you 57 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 3: thought about approaching a story like macafee's. 58 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 5: I mean, I think one of the things that he 59 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 5: not to say that he was like a dictator or 60 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 5: a terrorist or anything, but he did have a lot 61 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 5: of things in common with those sorts of men, which 62 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 5: is there's a lot of ego, and there's a lot 63 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 5: of a greater sense of unaccountability and the vanity that 64 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 5: comes with being the leader. And what we found in 65 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 5: our reporting is that he managed to continue to build 66 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 5: these small worlds where he was in charge, and you know, 67 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 5: it was just a lot of the similar kind of 68 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 5: characteristics of that sort of behavior and personality. The cult 69 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 5: of personality was definitely present in a lot of McAfee's 70 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 5: life and through a lot of the people that we 71 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 5: spoke to. 72 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 4: I mean, I see in your reporting almost a direct 73 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 4: through line from like John mcavee to Elon Musk. I 74 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 4: mean that you see a lot of similarities in that 75 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 4: kind of cult of personality, and you know, the I'm 76 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 4: in charge and running things and so I think that. 77 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 4: But I think that not just those two, but I 78 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 4: think there's a lot of that in general in tech 79 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 4: for worse often. 80 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I think a through line of the series. 81 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 3: As Jamie talked in the beginning, you know Adam Newman, 82 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 3: even Jeff Bezos is there's some common traits that exist 83 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 3: between these leaders. Alan clearly McAfee's work had an impact 84 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 3: on security industry. Do you think his personality shape the 85 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: business at all? Like his boosterism and salesmanship and antagonism 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 3: and paranoia like reflected in today's companies or CEOs. 87 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 4: I mean, and I love this company, so I'm going 88 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 4: to pick on them, but but go downstairs and look 89 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 4: at the crowd strike booth and the fact that they 90 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 4: have ten foot tall action figures of adversaries. 91 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: I mean that is great company. 92 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 4: But but yeah, that that that's sort of Oh, these 93 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 4: are really scary things that you have to fight, and 94 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 4: they are like there. 95 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: It is a real problem. It is a real threat. 96 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 4: But but we we we we do have this almost 97 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 4: fetishization if that's a word, of of the adversary rather 98 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:40,559 Speaker 4: than sort of taking a a more fact based look 99 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 4: at things. So I do think that that that is 100 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 4: absolutely the. 101 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: Case, and there have been and I think this is 102 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: in any. 103 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 4: Industry, but in particular to the areas where McAfee was 104 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 4: in technology and then cryptocurrency later, because it's areas that 105 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 4: a lot of people don't understand. 106 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 2: You do get some Charlotte Tens in there. 107 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 4: You do get some companies that kind of build everything 108 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 4: and I'm not saying mcvy did this, but are able 109 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 4: to build their whole company on lies. 110 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: Essentially, Jamie. 111 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 3: One thing we established in the episode we just heard 112 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 3: and made very clear throughout the series is that mcavee 113 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: is a controversial figure. What were some of the most 114 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 3: surprising things you learned about him during your reporting. 115 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 5: I think one of one of the challenges was figuring 116 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 5: out what was actually real, and you know, we had 117 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 5: to go back to a time that was pre internet, 118 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 5: and you know, a lot of those work experiences that 119 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 5: we talked about the employment history, we couldn't verify so 120 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 5: many of them because they went back to the sixties 121 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 5: and beforehand, and so that was really frustrating. One of 122 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 5: the things that I thought was really telling that we 123 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 5: everyone that we spoke to who was close to him 124 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 5: sort of began with this, Oh, he was so great, 125 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 5: he was such a smart person, he was brilliant, he 126 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 5: was the love of my life. 127 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, the ex wives, Yeah. 128 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 5: And then it was, oh, he was horrible, and you know, 129 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 5: he cheated on me, or he betrayed me or did this, 130 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 5: and then by the end it was like he was 131 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 5: the worst. So your people just kind of went through 132 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 5: this whole journey of how they felt about him, but 133 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 5: their immediate recollections were that he was this positive person 134 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 5: on their lives, and then they remember, oh, no, actually 135 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 5: he kind of you know, destroyed me. So I mean 136 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 5: that was really surprising that it was. It wasn't just 137 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 5: one or two people, it was nearly everyone we spoke to. 138 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 3: I want to give people a chance to ask questions. 139 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 3: We get a couple of microphones in the room. You're 140 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 3: welcome to step up and asked your own questions. 141 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: Alan. 142 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: Something that McAfee talked about, especially leader in his life 143 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: was this push and pulled between security and privacy. I 144 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 3: think this was for him personally, often in the context 145 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 3: of not paying taxes and a sort of creative interpretation 146 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: of privacy is like a license to break the law. 147 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: But this theme of safety versus privacy civil liberties is 148 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 3: a pretty relevant. 149 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 4: One today, right, Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean we we 150 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 4: the the FBI and the Department of Justice is trying 151 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 4: to figure out still trying to figure out how to 152 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 4: find back doors into encryption tools and so on, and 153 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 4: considers that to be really important without any actual evidence 154 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 4: that having those back doors would actually help them solve 155 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 4: cases faster. You know, the the just a couple of 156 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 4: years ago, the you know, the fight between Department of 157 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 4: Justice and Apple over hey are you gonna help us 158 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 4: jail break this phone? And know we're not, and and yeah, 159 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 4: it's a real challenge. And you know, as somebody in 160 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 4: the security industry, I think privacy is really important. 161 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: I think we shouldn't be giving. 162 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 4: Governments back doors to to encryption algorithms and you know, 163 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 4: giving them access to these kind of databases because if 164 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: one if country, one country has access, then essentially all 165 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 4: countries have access to it. 166 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 3: It's funny to bring up to SANDBERD, you know, example, 167 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 3: because that's in our suit. Mcaveee like inserts himself into 168 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 3: the story. Yeah, try to bring the attention back to himself. 169 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 4: Course, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And that was a great example 170 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 4: of he always had to kind of be front and 171 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 4: center on the story. 172 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: So yes, absolutely, But it. 173 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 5: Is also really smart about like the zeitgeist, right, he 174 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 5: knew where and. 175 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 6: What and that. 176 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 5: I mean, like I kind of felt by the end 177 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 5: that he should have really just chosen a career in 178 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 5: Hollywood because he was so good at figuring out how 179 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 5: to use fear and and and sort of what it 180 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 5: was that what that drew attention, and he was really 181 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 5: he just knew, he understood people so well, and because 182 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,479 Speaker 5: you know, so much what he did was so fantastical, 183 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 5: I really thought that Hollywood would have been his true home. 184 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 2: Yes, he was very charismatic. 185 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 4: Absolutely, he would have made billions producing movies and so on. 186 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 4: Update war games only instead of you know, just a 187 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 4: just a basic computer, it's now a government funded AI 188 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 4: that is starting World War three, right, I mean, you know, 189 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 4: that would have been the perfect movie for him. 190 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,479 Speaker 3: Jamie McAfee associated with some pretty shady characters. 191 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 2: You talked about how. 192 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: Separating fact from fiction was a challenge in your reporting. 193 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: What other sorts of reporting challenges? Is this great for you? 194 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 5: I mean the shady characters, unreliable narrators, that. 195 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 4: Was what help me. 196 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 2: I'm not one of the shady characters. 197 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 5: Characters you are not, but I think it was really 198 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 5: hard to find someone who was connected in some way 199 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 5: with him, who could be truly honest and and you know, 200 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 5: really just sort of call it what it was. And 201 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 5: that was always really hard. And whenever we would sort 202 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 5: of say to someone, well, apparently there's video of you 203 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 5: doing this, so like, no, it's not true, never happening. 204 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 5: So that was always a challenge. And I think at 205 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 5: least one of our interviewees had an ancle bracelet for 206 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 5: a while, so that was also challenging. 207 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting to prep for this. I grabbed I 208 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 4: ordered a couple of biographies on McAfee, And when you 209 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 4: start reading through the biographies, I guess the people that 210 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 4: he would allow in to write biographies were also kind 211 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 4: of self serving and shady. And I'm reading the biography 212 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 4: and I'm like, this is more about you and how 213 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 4: great you are as a biographer, and I'm like, all right, well, 214 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 4: but but you know, I do think he did foster 215 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 4: that kind of environment, especially later in life, which I 216 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 4: thought was interesting. 217 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 5: Really good at co opting media, really really really good 218 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 5: at it. 219 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 3: We have a question from the ans. Could you identify yourself? 220 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 7: Yeah, Oh, my name is Rushmama, cybersecurity architect life. We 221 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 7: met last month. 222 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 5: You might remember me, but I remember you. 223 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 7: But Jamie, you're an amazing storyteller. I'm just curious to 224 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 7: know how did you come to the title Foundering, especially 225 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 7: when you mentioned that so many times you came across 226 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 7: during your interviews that he's not necessarily a leader, not 227 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 7: necessarily somebody who would put the company together to take 228 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 7: it to the next step. So was there any struggle 229 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 7: about coming to this title? 230 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: What solidified the title? 231 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 5: I'm going to defer to at least one person in 232 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 5: the room who came up with that title. 233 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the title for a series we've been doing 234 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 3: for a few years, where I mean it's like a 235 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 3: double meaning ever playing off a founder because it's the 236 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 3: founder of a company, but foundering also refers to a 237 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 3: shift thinking. So oftentimes these entrepreneurial stories, there's some great 238 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 3: chanceallenges in our first subject, which Ellen here, Ellen Hewitt 239 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 3: from Bloomberg, who was the host of We focused on 240 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 3: Adam Newman from We Work, who was definitely foundering, and 241 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: then sank. Not all of our subjects sank entirely. Some 242 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 3: got to leave on their own terms, like Jeff Bezos 243 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: who Brad Stone, the host of that series, is here too. 244 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 3: And so yeah, that was the story behind the title. 245 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: Another question from the audience was. 246 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 8: More about kind of the kernel of his brilliance. So 247 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 8: we heard about different aspects of what made him successful, 248 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 8: his salesmanship, the relationships he developed, but what was at 249 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 8: the start of his success in building his company. Was 250 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 8: there some sort of technical brilliance or was it more 251 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 8: smoke and mirrors? 252 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 5: I mean, according to the interviews that we did, the 253 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 5: product was like good. There was a whole controversy about 254 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 5: whether he even like created it himself or whether one 255 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 5: of the programmers that he employed did it. And it's 256 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 5: a rabbit hole like it really. I even heard from 257 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 5: one person that I spoke to that when he was 258 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 5: working at Lockheed Martin, one of his colleagues at Lockheed 259 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 5: Martin had actually came up with it and John had 260 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 5: stolen it from him. And then when it so, I mean, 261 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 5: this is why I said it was so hard to 262 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 5: verify exactly what was happening. But what we do know 263 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 5: for sure is that Dennis l the computer programmer who 264 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 5: worked with McFee, was instrumental in sort of creating that 265 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 5: first version, and obviously it fit in need. But I 266 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 5: don't really know much about fighting viruses back then. But 267 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 5: they were like for specific viruses, right, so you had 268 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 5: to constantly iterate and find new solutions, is that right? 269 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, so what you were looking at in 270 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 4: back in the early eighties was you had two You 271 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 4: had McAfee and you had Norton, and then you had 272 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 4: a whole bunch of scammy uh uh pretend anti virus 273 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 4: programs that didn't actually do anything, just kind of like 274 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 4: now actually, But but yeah, and you know, basically the 275 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 4: way it worked was it was entirely a subscription model. 276 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 4: They would identify a new virus and then they would 277 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 4: and they would add it to the signature. So it 278 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 4: was all signature based and that was kind of the 279 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 4: brilliance of it. When you're only dealing with one virus 280 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 4: a month, or one mutation of a virus a month, 281 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 4: you can add new signatures monthly and do pretty well, 282 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 4: and so they were able to stay ahead of it. 283 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 4: The problem was when you moved from that one a 284 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 4: month to you know, hundreds of variations a day, then 285 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 4: it became much much more difficult to keep up. But yes, 286 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 4: in the in the early eighties and mid eighties, McAfee 287 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 4: and Norton were your options for better, for for better 288 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 4: you know, internet security and to protect. 289 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: You from these viruses that were a real problem. 290 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 3: I think the uh, the question of who programmed it 291 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: is like similar to the sort of like Steve Jobs 292 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: versus Steve Wozniak like debate, which is who who was 293 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: the genius? And I think they were they were both geniuses. 294 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 3: And like mcaview's ability to market the to create the 295 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 3: Ghostbusters Dan and drive it to the sites and like 296 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 3: go on TV and get people interested and scare everyone 297 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 3: about the Michelangel virus, that was an effect that you know, 298 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 3: he created an industry that's like pretty amazing. 299 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 4: Well, and we see that even today there are incident 300 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 4: response companies that have like their promotional incident response truck 301 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 4: like like you know, it looks like an ambulance or 302 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 4: or something like that. So that again when we talk 303 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 4: about through lines, that that continues through uh where where 304 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 4: where they have that ability? 305 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: Alan, How unique of a figure do you think McAfee was, Like, 306 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 3: have you come across other mcafeees during the course of 307 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 3: your time? 308 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: Was or is? 309 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 9: So? 310 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 4: I think in in the early cybersecurity industry, I think 311 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 4: he was fairly unique. 312 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: I do think there are maybe. 313 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 4: With less cocaine, although I'm not at the CEO level, 314 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 4: so I could be completely wrong about that. I think 315 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 4: there are. We still see them pop up. The type 316 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 4: of salesman you have to especially if you're a startup, 317 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 4: you have to be a bit of a salesman to 318 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 4: sell your product, right, and McVie did make a good product, 319 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 4: But I do think we have a lot of the 320 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 4: people who are more of the salespeople without the good 321 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 4: product behind it in in security industry, again because it 322 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 4: is such a complex industry, but I think the best 323 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 4: CEOs also have to be able to sell their product. 324 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 4: I don't think that's a bad thing. You know, as 325 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 4: a technical person, I get all queasy and uncomfortable around 326 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 4: selling stuff, but you can't do that as a CEO. 327 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 3: So we have a question from my boss, Brad. 328 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 10: I would encourage everybody to listen to the podcast, it's 329 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 10: really crazy, but in particular the last episode is wild 330 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 10: because McAfee authors this incredible last chapter where he runs 331 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 10: for president, he gets into crypto, and he gets arrested, 332 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 10: and then he dies under mysterious circumstances. 333 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: So I'm wondering, you know. 334 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 9: Jamie, what did you end up concluding about this last 335 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 9: chapter in his life and the mysterious, somewhat mysterious circumstances 336 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 9: of his death. 337 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 2: And then Alan, the one for you is. 338 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 10: Like, why do you think we're still talking about John McAfee. 339 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 10: Why does he continue to resonate in this industry? 340 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 5: I mean, I was trying to. I really struggle with 341 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 5: this because it's really hard to sort of imagine a 342 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 5: seventy ydd year old man running around the world rather 343 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 5: than like pay taxes. I couldn't understand why he felt 344 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 5: he had to react sorely to something like that, And 345 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 5: all I could think was it was his narcissism and 346 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 5: his ego and this this idea, this belief that he 347 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,479 Speaker 5: had that people cared about him, you know, and that 348 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 5: without his online audience or his fans or whenever he 349 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 5: would go to these conferences and speak, he was you know, 350 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 5: in Alan. You saw him speaking in a couple of 351 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 5: places as well that you know, he had this adulation 352 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 5: and I don't know, I was really it just seems 353 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 5: like the most obvious thing is just go to court, 354 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 5: but that's he's never done that. He had all of 355 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 5: these instances where he was meant to go to court 356 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 5: to face up to charges and he just point blank 357 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 5: refused to. And they think that if you entrench yourself 358 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 5: in your positions so stubbornly, I think seventy five year 359 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 5: olds can be stubborn, then, you know. But and then 360 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 5: I think the sort of the conspiracy around his death 361 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,479 Speaker 5: was just part of fo menting and making sure that 362 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 5: he could do what he could to keep his name 363 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 5: out there as long as possible. I mean, it's really 364 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 5: an exercise in just like extreme narcissism. But a lot 365 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 5: of people, you know, brought into it. We get a 366 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 5: lot of reactions still online to the story that he's 367 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 5: not dead, so that's always fun. 368 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you look at the contrast between John 369 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 4: McAfee and Peter Norton. Does anybody know what Peter Norton's 370 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 4: doing these days? I mean, you know there's a guy 371 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 4: who paid his taxes made his money, and you know, 372 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 4: is off doing whatever we talked about him because he 373 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 4: wanted to be in the public eye and he wanted 374 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 4: to keep that public persona and that was that was 375 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 4: important to him. And I do think that there is 376 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 4: for a lot of the security community. I think there's 377 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 4: a very libertarian streak in the security community. So a 378 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 4: lot of what he said resonated with with with many 379 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 4: people in the security community. A little overboard for for 380 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 4: for for many, but but I do think that that 381 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 4: that kind of resonation, you know, was important, and there 382 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 4: were people that agreed with a lot of what he 383 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 4: had to say. You know, I think he had a 384 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 4: very good stance on privacy. For example, Personally, I'm not 385 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 4: a fan of cryptocurrencies, but that's because I deal with 386 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 4: ransomware and I only see cryptocurrency is being used for 387 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 4: bad things. But you know, so in that way, he's 388 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 4: managed to stay relevant because he was always chasing after 389 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 4: the next relevant thing. 390 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 3: We're almost out a time, but I want Jamie to 391 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 3: ask one more question. What is the one thing you 392 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: hope listeners take away from the series? 393 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 5: Oh my god, I mean, I think in a lot 394 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 5: of ways, it's it's a really great story. Like I 395 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 5: think what happened to John McAfee, Like he came from 396 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 5: nothing and he built this incredible company and it helped start, 397 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 5: you know, an industry. And I think that sort of 398 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 5: the the good parts of what he did and what 399 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 5: he accomplished I really worth sort of paying attention to. 400 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 5: Like he saw an opportunity, he had an idea, and 401 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,719 Speaker 5: he went for it and really went for it. And 402 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 5: I think the other part of that is, you know, 403 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 5: it's such a slippery slope. 404 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 6: You you you become powerful and wealthy, and you were 405 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 6: surrounded by your neighborers and you never hear the word no, 406 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,239 Speaker 6: and you start to believe that you don't have to 407 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 6: operate on the same level as everyone else. 408 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 5: And there's a big lesson in that as well. And 409 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 5: you know we see that every day. Actually you're right 410 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 5: about that. 411 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 3: All right, Well, thank you Alan for sitting down with 412 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 3: us now twice if you count the podcast interview, absolutely 413 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 3: and thanks to Jamie for doing what is a very 414 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 3: awkward dance for a journalist of sitting up here and 415 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 3: performing for an audio. And I hope you all give 416 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: a round him applause for our executive producer Sean. When 417 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 3: Sean came out this morning's bite having a tiny baby 418 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 3: at home and was not letting her sleep, and Brad 419 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 3: and Tom and Hannah, and this is the first time 420 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 3: we've been able to get almost the entire team together. 421 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 3: But most of all, thank you to all of you 422 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 3: for coming today And if you like the show, find 423 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 3: us in your podcast app, subscribe, leave a review, thank you, 424 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 3: and I hope you enjoy the rest of the conference.