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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. SpongeBob made me do it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that kind of sounds laughable. SpongeBob made me do it.

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Speaker 1: The cartoon character who was literally a sponge with legs,

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Speaker 1: but in the context of a dead baby girl. SpongeBob

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Speaker 1: made me do it takes own a whole different light,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it. Sometimes excuses are when you first hear them

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Speaker 1: at first blush laughable. You know what, Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this our cut one our friends at crime online

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Twenty two year old Justine Johnson has her

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Speaker 1: own home, but needing extra help taking care of her

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Speaker 1: three year old daughters Sutton, she moves back in with

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Speaker 1: her and brothers. Justine's older brother, Nestleie Johnson Junior, says,

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Speaker 1: two days after celebrating her third birthday, Sutton and her

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Speaker 1: mother were at home as usual when he left for

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Speaker 1: work around two thirty PM. When he returned home around

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Speaker 1: four am, he asked his seventeen year old brother where

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Speaker 1: their sister and niece. Were. Looking around the house, their

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Speaker 1: brothers can't find Justine or Sutton anywhere. However, the younger

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Speaker 1: brothers spots something when he goes to the back of

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Speaker 1: their house, he sees what appears to be a human

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Speaker 1: child's foot sticking out of a bag, and Justine Johnson

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Speaker 1: is missing. Okay, I want to hear that one more time.

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Speaker 1: I want it to really so king, could you play

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Speaker 1: that one more time? This is Dave mack, our friend

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Speaker 1: at crime online dot Com. Twenty two year old Justine

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Speaker 1: Johnson has her own home, but needing extra help taking

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Speaker 1: care of her three year old daughter, Sutton, she moves

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Speaker 1: back in with her parents and brothers. Justine's older brother,

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Speaker 1: nest Lee Johnson Junior, says, two days after celebrating her

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Speaker 1: third birthday, Sutton and her mother were at home as

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Speaker 1: usual when he left for work around two thirty pm.

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Speaker 1: When he returned home around four am, he asked his

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Speaker 1: seventeen year old brother where their sister and niece were.

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Speaker 1: Looking around the house, their brothers can't find Justine or

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Speaker 1: Sutton anywhere. However, the younger brothers spots something. When he

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Speaker 1: goes to the back of their house. He sees what

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Speaker 1: appears to be a human child's foot sticking out of

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Speaker 1: a bag, and Justine Johnson is missing. Justine Johnson, as

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Speaker 1: you heard, had just celebrated her third birthday a couple

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Speaker 1: of days before then, the brothers find a child's foot

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Speaker 1: protruding out of a bag there in the home. I'm

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation in Sirius XM on eleven.

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Speaker 1: You know what started out as funny, SpongeBob made me

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Speaker 1: do it. It's not so funny anymore? Is it? Just

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Speaker 1: trying to take in because I'm thinking about about my

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Speaker 1: children at age three. I've got some pictures on the

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Speaker 1: table beside the kitchen where we eat supper every night,

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Speaker 1: and they are pictures of John, David and Lucy and

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Speaker 1: David and there when the children are really little. This

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Speaker 1: child had just turned three years old. With me and

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Speaker 1: I'll star panel to make sense of what we know

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Speaker 1: right now. Stacy Hanowitt's assistant state attorney joining me out

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Speaker 1: of Florida. Her specialty is crime on children, and can

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Speaker 1: I tell you something. I prosecuted a lot of violent

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Speaker 1: crimes on children, and those crimes are the ones that

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Speaker 1: you never forget. I remember, Stacy, one case I was

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Speaker 1: prosecuting dealt with a little girl about three years old

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Speaker 1: that was in a vegetative state forever. She was never

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Speaker 1: according to the doctors ever going to come out of

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Speaker 1: a vegetative date. And I was prosecuting her bio father

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Speaker 1: for beating her senseless. She was covered in cigarette burns,

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Speaker 1: she was beaten into a coma from which she never escaped.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Stacy, when you want medical records, sometimes

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Speaker 1: they're very hard to get. I had some medical records

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Speaker 1: that I was using to prosecute the case, but of

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Speaker 1: course Stacy during the trial, during the trial, which means

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Speaker 1: there's no way I could have used the medical records

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Speaker 1: because you have to they're considered scientific documents, and all

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Speaker 1: scientific evidence has to be handed over to the other side,

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Speaker 1: the defense well before trial, so I couldn't use them,

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Speaker 1: no matter what I found in them. I was thumbing

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Speaker 1: through them, listening to what was going on in court,

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Speaker 1: and I saw where this I think she was between

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Speaker 1: two and three year old girl. Stacy had also been raped.

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Speaker 1: She had no Hyman. That was the only time I

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Speaker 1: have ever walked out of the courtroom. I just said recess,

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Speaker 1: and I don't even know what happened if the judge

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Speaker 1: obviously granted a recess and I walked to out of

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Speaker 1: the courtroom. I was so upset sad, overwhelmed, angry because

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Speaker 1: like what had happened to this little girl, what she

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Speaker 1: had lived through, you know. Only later it hit me

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Speaker 1: like a cement brick that I couldn't introduce it into

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Speaker 1: evidence under the rules of evidence. It would be unethical

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Speaker 1: and reversible. But I mean, Stacy, how do you live

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Speaker 1: with it every day? Because this happened years ago and

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Speaker 1: I'm still talking about it, you know. Unfortunately, Nancy, I've

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Speaker 1: been doing this for thirty three years and I see

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Speaker 1: these cases all of the time, and it's a horrible

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Speaker 1: thing to say that nothing surprises me. But what we

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Speaker 1: see is the big, major cases that make the news

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Speaker 1: that are in a fish bowl. I see these cases

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Speaker 1: every single day, local cases in every courthouse in every

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Speaker 1: state all over, and so we have to be really

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Speaker 1: cognizant of the fact that this really does go on.

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Speaker 1: Just because we see the big, heavy duty one that

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Speaker 1: make the national news. There are hundreds of cases every

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Speaker 1: single day where kids are being abused and raped, and

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Speaker 1: that's what I deal with. And it's a hard task,

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Speaker 1: but someone has to do it, and I've chosen to

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Speaker 1: do it. You're doing God's work because these people need

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Speaker 1: to go to jail, and I'll tell you why, of

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Speaker 1: all other crimes, I am completely convinced that child molesters

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Speaker 1: and child abusers can and will never be rehabilitated. That

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Speaker 1: goes for all sex offenders, that people that pray on children.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole another animal. Also with me, in addition

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Speaker 1: to Stacy Funnow's is doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists and

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Speaker 1: joy ending US from the Atlanta jurisdiction. She specializes with

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Speaker 1: a practice with women, and I can't wait for her

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Speaker 1: to tune up on all the mental instabilities this suspect

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Speaker 1: may have had translation none. She just mean as hell,

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Speaker 1: mean as a rattlesnake. I'd picked the snake over picking her.

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Speaker 1: Justine Johnson have had to be locked in a room

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Speaker 1: alone with one of them. Dan Corsentino with me, former

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Speaker 1: police chief, former sheriff, served on US Homeland Security Senior

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Speaker 1: Advisory Board, now PI at Dan Corsentino dot com. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Kendall Crown's chief medical Examiner, Tarrant County. That's fort word

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Speaker 1: and I catch this lecture University of Texas, Texas A

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Speaker 1: and M with the faculty University Texas Medical Branch. He

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Speaker 1: goes on and on thank you for taking time to

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Speaker 1: be with us, doctor Kendall Crowns. But first to Coole Waterman,

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Speaker 1: crime reporter with mlive dot Com joining us out of Michigan.

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Speaker 1: You can find them on as to at dollars short.

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Speaker 1: I'm not even going to ask what that means, Cold Waterman,

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Speaker 1: Cole Waterman, who is this mother, Justine Johnson? She is

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Speaker 1: from a place called Oscota. It's an unincorporated community in Michigan.

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Speaker 1: What can you tell me about it? Oh? Oscota Township

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Speaker 1: is near the city of East Tawas. It's popular beachfront

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Speaker 1: location during the spring and summer months for Michiganders. It's

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Speaker 1: not heavily populated. It's rural Twas itself is about less

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Speaker 1: than three thousand at the population so Asakota Township would

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Speaker 1: be even less than that. I do know it's unincorporated

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Speaker 1: like where I grew up, which means kind of out

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Speaker 1: in a very rural area. And I notice also that

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Speaker 1: they're about three thousand personnel stationed nearby at Wartsmith Air

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Speaker 1: Force Base. To Cole Waterman, Cole, did she have any

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Speaker 1: other children or is this her? Only? As far as

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Speaker 1: I've been able to tell, this are only a child.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting, Among many other factors to doctor

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Speaker 1: Angela Arnold joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, I

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Speaker 1: noticed that a lot of children end up dead between

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Speaker 1: ages two and three? Have you noted that? Noticed that?

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Speaker 1: Springing to mind are the little Wells brothers Orson and

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Speaker 1: Oran Wells and Kelly Anthony taught mom Casey Anthony's daughter

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Speaker 1: had I believe just turned two. So what is it

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Speaker 1: about that age between ages two and three that the

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Speaker 1: parents just can't handle? Well, first of all, I think

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Speaker 1: that children are very vulnerable at that age. It's still

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Speaker 1: that's an age at which it's still a little bit

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Speaker 1: easier to manipulate them. But by around the age of

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Speaker 1: you know, a baby's born, it's fun. You go through

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Speaker 1: the first year of life, which is a very difficult

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Speaker 1: time for a parents. Going through the first year of life,

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Speaker 1: I loved it. I loved my children's first year of life,

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Speaker 1: and as they got older that it only got better.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, let me just throw a lay person's analysis,

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Speaker 1: and you tell me if this makes sense. When a

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Speaker 1: child is an infant, some people, not me, will just

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Speaker 1: put it in a car seat and walk around and

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Speaker 1: just lay it down. I've seen people at restaurants put

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Speaker 1: their baby down with like a little cloth over the

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Speaker 1: top of the car seat and they don't look at

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Speaker 1: the baby one time the whole time they eat. It's

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Speaker 1: just there on the floor. And I assume they do

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Speaker 1: the same thing at home. With a baby. You can

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Speaker 1: just put it down and if you're of that mind,

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Speaker 1: just leave it whether it needs you or not. When

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Speaker 1: they're two or three, you can't do that. They get

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Speaker 1: up and walk around and wander and can pick up

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Speaker 1: the phone, escape from the door. You have to actually

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Speaker 1: watch them and give them attention. By that age is

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Speaker 1: some parents just aren't cut out for it. And also Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Around that age, they are talking and they can push

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Speaker 1: back a little bit, and sometimes I think parents start

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Speaker 1: to realize, well, this is just getting harder, This is

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Speaker 1: not getting easier at all, and how am I going

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Speaker 1: to maintain this until this child is eighteen years old? Guys,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut too. This is Kendall

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Speaker 1: Keys WNAM five. The call to police came shortly before

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Speaker 1: four Friday morning. Justine Johnson's two brothers had been searching

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Speaker 1: for the twenty two year old at a home on

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Speaker 1: Cedar Lake Road in Oscota Township. Instead, they found a

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Speaker 1: small human foot protruding from a trash bag. That foot

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Speaker 1: belonged to three year old Sutton Mosser, Justine Johnson's daughter.

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Speaker 1: According to the affidavit, Officers located Johnson just before nine

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Speaker 1: that morning walking along the Lake State Railroad tracks. Officers

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Speaker 1: took her to the police department and say when she

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Speaker 1: was given the news of her deceased daughter, she appeared

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Speaker 1: unemotional calm. She told police she didn't want to talk

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Speaker 1: about it. Prime stories with Nancy Grace. You know, I

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Speaker 1: just learned so much. Okay, forgive me, Jackie, but I

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Speaker 1: want to hear that again. The call to police came

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Speaker 1: shortly before four Friday morning. Justine Johnson's two brothers had

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Speaker 1: been searching for the twenty two year old at a

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Speaker 1: home on Cedar Lake Road in Oscota Township. Instead, they

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Speaker 1: found a small human foot protruding from a trash bag.

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Speaker 1: That foot belonged to three year old Sutton Mosser, Justine

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Speaker 1: Johnson's daughter. According to the affidavit, Officers located Johnson just

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Speaker 1: before nine that morning, walking along the Lake State Railroad tracks.

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Speaker 1: Officers took her to the police department and say when

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Speaker 1: she was given the news of her deceased daughter, she

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Speaker 1: appeared unemotional calm. She told police she didn't want to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. Okay, so many things to die say

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Speaker 1: try there a lot of bombs went off in the

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Speaker 1: background when I was hearing that. The first is that

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Speaker 1: it's at four o'clock in the morning when the two

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Speaker 1: brothers find the baby. What does that tell you? Why

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Speaker 1: was it four o'clock in the morning, cold waterman. They've

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Speaker 1: been searching since what time and they find the baby

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Speaker 1: at four am? Well, the older brother went to work

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Speaker 1: in the afternoon and got home from work between three

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Speaker 1: thirty four in the morning. He testified, and when he

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Speaker 1: got home he asked his younger brother, you know, where's Justine?

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Speaker 1: Where Sutton the daughter? And he had just gotten home himself.

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Speaker 1: I've been looking for and that's when they made the discovery.

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Speaker 1: M Then I learned she has found in a trash bag.

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Speaker 1: To Dan Korcentina, former police chief, former sheriff us home

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Speaker 1: web security, remember that Tottenham Casey Anthony put Kelly in

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Speaker 1: a trash bag and threw her away like trash. And

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Speaker 1: I've had so many cases where the child is put

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Speaker 1: in a trash bag. How often have you seen that,

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Speaker 1: Dan Corsentino, Well, I'm saying it a couple of times

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Speaker 1: since State of Colorado, on once in the city where

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Speaker 1: I was the sheriff. And this case where the child

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Speaker 1: is placed in a trash bag and the child is

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Speaker 1: completely discarded, it is a tragic case because there's a

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Speaker 1: disconnect that takes place, obviously between the mother and the child,

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Speaker 1: or if he will, the perpetrator and the child at

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Speaker 1: that point in time. And clearly there's no child that

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Speaker 1: you expect to have become a victim of a predator,

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Speaker 1: like in this case of Justine Johnson where she murdered

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Speaker 1: her own daughter. To doctor Kennel Crown's chief medical examiner

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Speaker 1: in Houston, doctor Kennel crowns, you have done thousands and

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Speaker 1: thousands of autopsies. Have you noticed that so often bodies

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Speaker 1: are put in a trash bag? And what if any

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Speaker 1: evidence can you the medical examiner or your investigators get

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Speaker 1: from the trash bag. Trash bags are often used by

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Speaker 1: individuals that are concealing a body with adults will cut

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Speaker 1: them up and put them in pieces in the trash

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Speaker 1: bag because they're very convenient and you can package them

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Speaker 1: up and throw them out in the dumpster or wherever

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Speaker 1: you want indition them. He had used a lot with

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Speaker 1: children as well, because again a whole child can sit

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Speaker 1: in a trash bag, and it's a very convenient way

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Speaker 1: of transporting them to decrease the amount of bodily fluids

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Speaker 1: that are getting around. As far as what evidence can

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Speaker 1: be recovered, anything that's less in a trash bag is

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Speaker 1: up for grabs for taking evidence. The bodily fluids of

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Speaker 1: courts are going to be still in there, and anything

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Speaker 1: else that's from the trash bag off, and people will

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Speaker 1: throw other sort of trash in there that's at the

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Speaker 1: seem like they used to cleaned up with brag teatures,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. And that was the case here, Doctor Kendall Crowns,

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Speaker 1: you're exactly correct, and let me just break it down

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Speaker 1: the way I would for a jury. You said it

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Speaker 1: in a very doctorately way. But trash bags don't leak,

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Speaker 1: They don't leak blood or bodily fluids. They're easy, especially

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Speaker 1: if they're the black trash bags, to put something in

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Speaker 1: it and transport it with no one knowing what's in there.

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Speaker 1: To doctor ange Arnold before I go any further, regarding

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Speaker 1: the physical discoveries made in the trash bag along with

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Speaker 1: this baby's body, the whole psychopathy of putting a body,

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Speaker 1: a child's body in a trash bag and discarding it. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm a JD, not an MD with a specialty and psychiatry,

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Speaker 1: So feel free to jomp in doctor Angie. We need

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Speaker 1: you right now, Nancy, as you said the word discarded,

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Speaker 1: and to me, that says so much more about the

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Speaker 1: actual act of having killed this child. You know, everybody says, oh,

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Speaker 1: SpongeBob made me do it, I didn't know what I

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Speaker 1: was doing. Well, you knew enough about what you were

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Speaker 1: doing to put the body in a trash bag so

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Speaker 1: that nobody would figure find out what you had done.

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Speaker 1: And it is it's just a discarding of somebody, as

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Speaker 1: if someone else on the show said, like, they're just trash. So, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I believe that the biggest problem with us is that

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Speaker 1: it ultimately shows a lack of attachment between the mother

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Speaker 1: and the child, because, as you often say on your shows,

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Speaker 1: you talk about the attachment that you have with your

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Speaker 1: twins and the love that exudes from you because of

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Speaker 1: that attachment that has developed between you and your twins,

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Speaker 1: and that's very normal. But there are people that have

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Speaker 1: babies and they do not develop an attachment with that child.

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Speaker 1: There it is an attachment disorder. As far as I'm concerned,

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Speaker 1: that is the only way that someone can heap this

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Speaker 1: kind of violence on a young child. I knew you'd

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Speaker 1: find some type of personality disorder that you could peg

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Speaker 1: on this, but you unwillingly torpedoed defense Sirie of some

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Speaker 1: sort of insanity because she knew enough to put her baby,

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Speaker 1: this gorgeous baby, girls setting moster who just turned three,

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Speaker 1: and a trash bag to get rid of evidence. Now,

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Speaker 1: you don't get rid of something if you want it

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Speaker 1: to be seen. Well, I'm hearing something. Oh it's doctor Angie,

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Speaker 1: still talking. Go ahead, Nancy. I am not using that

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Speaker 1: as an excuse at all, But I'm just trying to

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Speaker 1: help people in the audience understand that there are people

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Speaker 1: that do you know, everybody just thinks you have a baby.

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Speaker 1: The baby's so cute. You attached to the baby, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I see it every day in my practice. Women who

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Speaker 1: do not attach to the babies that they have carried

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Speaker 1: and born, and for lots of different reasons. It is

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Speaker 1: not an excuse, but it is something that exists. I

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Speaker 1: give me one reason, give me one legitimate reason. One

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Speaker 1: legitimate reason could could be postpartum depression. Okay, baby's born

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Speaker 1: depression is not insanity. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, we

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Speaker 1: are talking about the death of a girl, a baby

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Speaker 1: girl who had just celebrated her third day. As doctor

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Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns pointed out, a lot of times killers put

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Speaker 1: and sillery evidence into bags, trash bags, or wherever they

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Speaker 1: discard a body, and that's true in this case as well.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut number three. This is

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Speaker 1: Kendall Keys to n M five. Back on Cedar Lake Road,

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Speaker 1: State police were busy pouring over the scene. Inside the bags,

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Speaker 1: Sutton's body was dressed in a pink and white disposable diaper,

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Speaker 1: wrapped in bedding. She had been stabbed multiple times. There

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Speaker 1: was also a sweatshirt and a pair of size eleven

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Speaker 1: women's pants, pants that police say had quote a notable

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Speaker 1: amount of blood on them. According to the Alpha, David

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Speaker 1: Johnson told police that she wore size eleven pants. One

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Speaker 1: brother told police he saw her wearing the sweatshirt the

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Speaker 1: day before and that she was using drugs at the time.

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Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me of Stacy Hanowitz. I've got

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Speaker 1: so many directions in which to go right now, but

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Speaker 1: space King of Pants. We all remember the Jodi Arias

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Speaker 1: case right where she murdered her lover or Travis Alexander

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Speaker 1: by stabbing him I believe twenty nine, although they couldn't

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Speaker 1: really tell because there's so many stab wounds. They started

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Speaker 1: overlapping each other, but about twenty nine times, As shot

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Speaker 1: him in the head, left him in the shower to decompose,

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Speaker 1: because even though they had broken up, she was angry

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Speaker 1: he was taking another date on a trip to Chink

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Speaker 1: to Kim Kom. Now, this is why I'm bringing her up,

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Speaker 1: Stacy Honowitz. She left her digital camera in the dirty

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Speaker 1: clothes that the bloody clothes that she put in the washer,

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Speaker 1: and police found it and on the camera they found

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Speaker 1: a digital photo of her leg wearing her pants that

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Speaker 1: belonged to her at the crime scene. There was something

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Speaker 1: else in the photo, like part of the dead body

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Speaker 1: or blood on the floor, something that placed those pants

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Speaker 1: and that leg at the scene at the time of

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Speaker 1: the murder. It's not the first time a pair of

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Speaker 1: pants have been involved. Oh I just thought of another one.

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Speaker 1: My longtime friend and colleague, Daniel Horowitz's wife. She was

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Speaker 1: a beautiful on the inside and I spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time with them. She was murdered and a pair

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Speaker 1: of jeans, just a pair of blue jeans, have been

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Speaker 1: taken from the home. Turned out the purp had taken

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Speaker 1: them to wear them because his clothes were so bloody.

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Speaker 1: So pants. Unusually, Stacy Hanowitz enter in as very critical

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Speaker 1: evidence in a lot of cases. Explain it really makes

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Speaker 1: sense when you break it down. Well, listen, I mean

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Speaker 1: the old adages criminals are stupid. We know that. We

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Speaker 1: see half the time cases are solved because the criminal

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Speaker 1: has left a princess at the scene. And I don't

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Speaker 1: mean physical print of his fingers. I'm talking about some

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Speaker 1: sort of article of clothing and in this case pants.

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Speaker 1: And so when we're analyzing these cases and when we're

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Speaker 1: looking for evidence to bring into court, that's a crucial

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Speaker 1: piece of evidence that's going to match up. And what

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Speaker 1: you have here is exactly what the doctor has previously said.

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Speaker 1: You have somebody that has discarded this child, and in

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Speaker 1: discarding this child, it's almost like she wants to get

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Speaker 1: caught because she's leaving something of herself there, and we

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Speaker 1: have all of these things to bring into court. Is evidence,

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Speaker 1: the pants, it's discarding, the leaving whatever it is found

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Speaker 1: in the bag, coupled with her ability to say to

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Speaker 1: the detective, I don't want to talk about this right now.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that for a moment. Now. I've had

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Speaker 1: mini mini defense lawyers argue quote, and they always use

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Speaker 1: the same tired phrase. There's no playbook for grief that

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Speaker 1: is complete and total byesque. I want to tell that

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Speaker 1: to a jury. I'd be mad if you didn't. But

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Speaker 1: when you clam up and say I don't want to

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Speaker 1: talk about it, I would have had a million questions.

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Speaker 1: Where is she, what happened? Who did this? Where's the body?

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to her right now this minute. I

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Speaker 1: can't stay and talk to you. I've got to get

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Speaker 1: to my daughter. That's what I would expect to happen.

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Speaker 1: But none of that happened. When mommy was told her daughter,

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Speaker 1: her baby, if three years old, was dead. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our cut five. This is Jamie Sheera w

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Speaker 1: n M five. Who is this little girl? Listen? It

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Speaker 1: was full life was it very smart. She knew so

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Speaker 1: many colors. She could come almost to thirty. Alissa Johnson

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Speaker 1: remembering her three year old granddaughter son and Mosser as

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Speaker 1: a beautiful and bright young girl who could put a

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Speaker 1: smile on any one's face. The two were clothes. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't grandmother, I was grandmom. The baby would be more

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Speaker 1: than anythink. She was so close to me. She always

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Speaker 1: waited I'm going to come home for Johnson tells TV

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Speaker 1: five she was downstaged when she learned about Sutton's death,

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Speaker 1: the details devastating. The young girl had suffered multiple staff

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Speaker 1: wounds to her chest. Her body had been found in

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Speaker 1: a trash bag Friday morning at a home on Cedar

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Speaker 1: Lake Road in Oscolda township where she lived with her

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Speaker 1: grandmom and mother Justine Johnson. I don't tell me it's

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Speaker 1: that true that they needed to get to my baby.

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Speaker 1: Couldn't be happening. Let's see what you're hearing right there?

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Speaker 1: Is you are hearing Alyssa Johnson, not the mother, the grandmom,

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Speaker 1: and she is referring to Sutton as her baby. It

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Speaker 1: reminds me so much of top Mom, Casey Anthony, her

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Speaker 1: mother Cindy Anthony was really raising Casey at Kelly as

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Speaker 1: her baby, because top Mom certainly was not taking care

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Speaker 1: of her two. Doctor Kendall Crowns, chief medical Examiner a

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Speaker 1: Tyrant County Fort Worth. Multiple stab wounds is a particularly

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Speaker 1: heinous way to murder someone. You're within a foot of

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Speaker 1: them as you stab them over and over and over,

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Speaker 1: unlike putting a pillow over their face where you don't

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Speaker 1: see their face and they just die in a couple

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Speaker 1: of minutes. Unlike shooting someone at a distance like a sniper,

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Speaker 1: where you never get up close to the victim. They're

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Speaker 1: not it's not personal, you never in contact with them.

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Speaker 1: Multiple stab wounds that is nasty. Doctor Kendall Crowns, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree. It's so very up close and personally. You're

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Speaker 1: usually right on top of them with a knife, stabbing

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Speaker 1: them over and over. And also most people don't die

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Speaker 1: right away with stab wounds, so there's a lot of movement,

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Speaker 1: a lot of screaming involved, a lot of blood being

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Speaker 1: thrown about. So stabbing is a very rough way to

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Speaker 1: kill the money. You know, it's amazing to me, Cole

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Speaker 1: Waterman that the woman that we just heard crying about

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Speaker 1: baby Sutton has this to say take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our cut for w n M. TV five spoke with

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Speaker 1: Justine Johnson's mother, Sutton's grandmother, Elisa Johnson, on Monday. She

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Speaker 1: maintained her daughter's innocence and said she hoped for justice

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Speaker 1: for her granddaughter. I don't believe Justine could ever do

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Speaker 1: something like that because she would always teach Sutton that

427
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: she is kind, she is beautiful, and she is loved,

428
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: and she would have stop it in Sutton everything. Johnson

429
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: also told TV five she has been the target of

430
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: angry comments regarding her daughter and that she remains firm

431
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: and her support of her. I will be there for

432
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: Justine no matter what. Anybody calls me. That is my child.

433
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: Nobody understands that, and they really don't A mother's true love. Okay,

434
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: let me understand something called Waterman crime reporter mlive dot com.

435
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: I agree with standing by your child no matter what

436
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: and trying to help them. Well, what good does it

437
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: do baby Sutton For grandma to whine that she's getting

438
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: quote angry comments from people when she keeps declaring Justine

439
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: Johnson's innocent as her as, what good it does herd

440
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: deceased granddaughter. I can't say, I have no idea. I mean,

441
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what the mother or grandmother is going

442
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: through in this situation of your daughter is accused of

443
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: killing your granddaughter and what you know, an emotional psychological

444
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: tool that would take on heard having to be stuck

445
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: in between all of this crime stories with Nancy Grace.

446
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: Granny doesn't seem to be able to except her daughter,

447
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: Justine Johnson had anything to do with the brutal murder

448
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: of the grandchild Sutton, who just turned three years old

449
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: a couple of days before, even though her daughter's bloody

450
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: pants were found in the trash bag with the child's body. Well,

451
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: maybe this will convince her. Remember when we said SpongeBob

452
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: made me do it? Well, the chickens are coming home

453
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: to rus. Take a listen to our cut seven ABC twelve.

454
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: Justine Johnson told an investigator that she was watching SpongeBob

455
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: on TV and had an hallucination. The cartoon character told

456
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: her to kill her child or face death herself. He

457
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: was at this Oscota township home in September when twenty

458
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: two year old Justine Johnson's brother made the grizzly discovery

459
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: the body of Justine's three year old daughter, Sutton, was

460
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: found in a trash bag. She had been stabbed at death.

461
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: Johnson was not at the home when her daughter's body

462
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: was discovered, and an affidavit indicates police officers founder four

463
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: and a half hours later, walking on railroad tracks us

464
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: go to township. A family member said she had been

465
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: using drugs. Johnson was questioned but told the officers she

466
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: did not want to talk about the death of her child.

467
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: I bet she doesn't. What exactly did she say? Jacole Waterman,

468
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: crime reporter mlive dot com. According to the affidavits, she

469
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: didn't really say much of anything. She acted calm and

470
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: unemotional when the cops informed her of her daughter's death,

471
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: and apparently she just shut down and said, you don't

472
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: want to talk anymore, And that was extended her statement

473
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: to the police. Wow. Stacy Hanna Wentz, Assistant States Attorney

474
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: Joinings out of Florida. Stacey, you know what, Yeah, I

475
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: almost like it better. What a defendant does that so

476
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: I can argue to a jury how little they care

477
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: about the victim? Now? Did you hear a conflicting statement

478
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: earlier that SpongeBob told her to either kill her child

479
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: or die herself. You know a lot of people would

480
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: have chosen to die themselves rather than kill their own child. Well,

481
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: the theme is there. I mean, any prosecutor trying this

482
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: case would say, here's the same. She wanted to kill

483
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: the kid, she discarded the kids, she put the kid

484
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: in a trash bag, and then she didn't want to

485
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: talk about it. So I mean everything and the panther

486
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: and are in the trash bag. So I mean, unless

487
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: she's got the best doctor in the world, that's going

488
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: to say at the time of the murder, she did

489
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: not know the difference between right and wrong, which I

490
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: beg to differ would be very difficult because she knew

491
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: exactly what to do with the body afterwards. So that's

492
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: what she's facing. She's gonna look, she's gonna pull on

493
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: in Sanny defense. We all know that because the evidence

494
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: is overwhelming in the stase that she did it, and

495
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: she was saying, what was the other evidence called waterman. Well,

496
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: in addition to the clothing found with Sutton's body, which

497
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: seems to have been indeed her mother's, I believe a

498
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: knife was recovered as the scene, but I'm not positive

499
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: on that one. Investigators found several bloodstains on a hallway

500
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: closet door, on living room couches, items in a bedroom.

501
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: A forensic scientists testify to stated that three knives were

502
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: found in a bedroom. The baby's body was wrapped in

503
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: a comforter inside of the bag, along with a pair

504
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: of jeans that tested positive for human blood, sudden headstab

505
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: boons in her neck, chest, and abdomen, with one large

506
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: wound exposing part of the child's small intestines. The report

507
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: also said a bathtub upstairs was partially full of water

508
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: that showed a red tint consistent with blood. In the

509
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: back room of the home, he found a blue tote

510
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: bag with two garbage bags stacked on top with a

511
00:32:52,760 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: foot exposed. Okay, let me understand the trash bag with

512
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: the foot protruding was found in the home cold waterman.

513
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yes, it seems that the trash bag

514
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: and another trash bag were in a circular blue plastic

515
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: tote in kind of a back room of Michigan mudroom.

516
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: And they're called here, I believe, and that's where her brothers,

517
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: when looking for her, found the bag with Sutton's foot

518
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: sticking out of it. Yeah, let's take a listen to

519
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: our Terry Camp ABC twelve, Johnson told an investigator with

520
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: Child Protective Services that she had been hallucinating and she

521
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: heard a cartoon character tell her something. Jim Baccarella is

522
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: the Yiasco County prosecutor. She said that the television, specifically SpongeBob,

523
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: told her that she had to do this to the

524
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: child or she would retail. While Johnson has been found

525
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: competent for trial, Baccarella says there's a second component to

526
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: a psychological exam in criminal matters, value regarding criminal responsibility,

527
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: which is basically whether or not she knew the difference

528
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 1: between right and wrong at the time this event occurred.

529
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: That evaluation might take place as Johnson was bound over

530
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: for trial on felony murder in first degree child abuse

531
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: charges that would be used if she chose to raise

532
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: the affirmative defense of not guilty betteries of insanity. Now,

533
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: in case you're wondering, in case you don't have children

534
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 1: and don't know who SpongeBob is. He is a square

535
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: yellow sponge named SpongeBob square Pants because his pants are

536
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 1: square because his body is a sponge. He lives in

537
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 1: a pineapple with his pet snail Gary in the city

538
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: of Bikini Bottom on the floor of the Pacific Ocean.

539
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 1: He works as a fry cook at the Krusty Crab

540
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: and during his time off, SpongeBob has a knack for

541
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: attracting trouble with his star his starfish best friend Patrick

542
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: arrogant octopus, squidward tentacles. His neighbor dislikes SpongeBob because of

543
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: his childlike behavior. So SpongeBob is the bad guy in

544
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: this scenario. You know what, Justine Johnson, You're gonna rot

545
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: in hell. Woman with a little pit stop, with life

546
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: without parole, I can only pray, if not more. It's

547
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: not the first time a parent has taken out their

548
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: hatred and loathing and anxiety in frustration on a child.

549
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut fifteen from Newsweek. This

550
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: mom said, not SpongeBob, but the devil made her do it. Oh,

551
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: the devil rears his ugly head again. Listen, she said

552
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: the devil made her do it. And this week a

553
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist basically agreed. In a testimony this week, doctor

554
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,959
Speaker 1: Philip Presnick said that elsbe at a Placoska on trial

555
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: for killing two children and two dogs, had a psychotic

556
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: belief that devils had entered the children and that by

557
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: taking their lives, she was allowing the children to enter heaven.

558
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: Resnick added that Plakoska, who was pleaded not guilty by

559
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: reason of insanity, could not fully understand her criminal actions

560
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: when she stabbed her son Justin plus a playmate, Olivia Dwarski,

561
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: and the dogs. On October thirty of twenty twelve, The

562
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune reports Resnick had examined Plakoska for the trial

563
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: and testified that she claimed she saw black shadow and

564
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: believed the demon was entering the children, then the shadow

565
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: urged Plakoska to kill them. The testimony from Resnick, a

566
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: professor at Case Western University in Cleveland who has been

567
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: involved with other demonic possession cases such as Jeffrey Dahmer,

568
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: is countered to the prosecution case. Okay to you, doctor

569
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: Angela Arnold Psychiatrists joining us out of Atlanta, the devil, SpongeBob,

570
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: all sorts of entities directing parents, specifically mothers, to kill

571
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 1: their children. Help me out, doddre Angie. Of course, if

572
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: that's true, people are going to consider that a psychosis,

573
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 1: and it's all and it's often used in a defense.

574
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: I think it's very hard to prove. Now, I will

575
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: say doctor Resnick is he works on an awful lot

576
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: of these cases. He is an amazing forensic psychiatrist. Did

577
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: I ask you that because I don't remember asking you that. No,

578
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: But I'll ask you about parents saying that they were

579
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: told to kill their children. I believe that's what I

580
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: asked you about. I know, and you know what, Nancy,

581
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 1: what I think it's a very hard thing to prove.

582
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: How do you reconcile Let me just ask you this,

583
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: if it's even possible, which I do not believe that

584
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: it is in any reasonable minded Gerrar, how do you

585
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: reconcile the fact that mommy did not confess when she

586
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: was asked what happened, said she didn't want to talk

587
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: about it, left the premises, and hid out for hours

588
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: on end from her home so she wouldn't be found.

589
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: Hid the child's body after murdering her in a trash hack.

590
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: That tells me she knew what she did was wrong. Right,

591
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: So how can you know at the time of the

592
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: incident what you did was wrong yet still be insane?

593
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: Because I would submit to a jury that's impossible. I

594
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: agree with you, Nancy, I completely agree with you. The

595
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: fact that she hid the body in a trash bag

596
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: is very significant to de course a Tina former police chief,

597
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: sheriff and Homeland Security advisor Way and Dan. The evidence

598
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: speaks for itself in this case. This is a crime

599
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: of rage, a disconnect between the mother and the child

600
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: in this situation. And when you started making a look

601
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: at the collection of evidence, which is a smoking gun,

602
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: thirteen finger prints that are found, palm finger and palm

603
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: prints there recovered from the toe bag, in addition to

604
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: the blood, in addition to the nines, this case is

605
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: simply going to be one in Lesson. There's some case

606
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: made for this insanity plea. But this woman's going away

607
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: for a long time and she should in this jurisdiction

608
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: of Michigan, col Waterman, I do not believe they have

609
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: the death penalty or do they No, Michigan's a non

610
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: death penalty, states, but a conviction of first degree of murder,

611
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: which she has charged with, mandates a life without parole sentence.

612
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: It's not just moms. I want to remind you of

613
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 1: a case we just covered here at Crime Stories, and

614
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: you will remember it. Immediately. It's a case of Matthew

615
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: Taylor Coleman, who was a surf instructor, surfing instructor to

616
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: the wealthy and privileged, and he murdered all his children

617
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: because he bought into QAnon and Illuminati conspiracy theories and

618
00:39:53,000 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: thought his children had quote serpent DNA, serpent DNA. Does

619
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: anybody on the panel know what illuminati is? Illuminati is

620
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory that there's a consortium or cabal of rich, elite,

621
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 1: highly influential people that essentially control all world events. Anything

622
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: happens in the world, the Illuminati organizing it, essentially is

623
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: what they believe. And in that case, this dad, otherwise

624
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: perfectly saying teaching or rich kids and soccer moms who

625
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: have time to go get surfing lessons all day long,

626
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: bought into QAnon and Illuminati theories online and was convinced

627
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: that his children had surpent DNA. Now you see right there,

628
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 1: I did a bad thing, Stacy Honwitz. I was kind

629
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: of smart. I kind of laughed. But the children are dead. Well,

630
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 1: we see so much of this, I mean, this is enough.

631
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: New Man. See we've been covering these cases for a

632
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: long time. Remember the woman in Texas that drowned their

633
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: five kids in the bathtub methodically yeah, I mean so,

634
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: And we see the difference. We know that in these

635
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: cases they're not confessing, they're not saying yes, it's me,

636
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: I did it. They're getting doctors on board because they

637
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: are going to put forth in insanity defense. They have

638
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: to be able to say if they didn't know the

639
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: difference between right and wrong, And we see in these

640
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: cases that clearly, in this case, you know exactly what

641
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: to do in order to discard the body. Now, you

642
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: might want to look at a case where the insanity

643
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: defense is used, and it has been one because a

644
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: parent has killed a child and in the moment when

645
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: the police are called in, the parents is hovering over

646
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 1: this child, trying to comfort them or do something for them, screaming,

647
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: oh my god, what did I do? What did I do?

648
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: Then we might see a situation where there was in

649
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: fact a psychotic break at the time and the person

650
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: didn't know the difference between right and wrong. But when

651
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: you have somebody that clearly wants to clean up the

652
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: crime scene and not go anywhere near it and not

653
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: talk to the police, you are hard t used to

654
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: be able to stand in front of a jury and

655
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: say I didn't know the difference between right and wrong

656
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: when I killed this child. And I think that's what

657
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: we're dealing with in all of these cases, the same scenario.

658
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: And we have the mom who kills her children, beats

659
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: her boys in the head with a rock, telling her

660
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: an angel, saying that an angel made her do it.

661
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: I mean, the list of the real killers is very

662
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: long and day, but it always boils down to one

663
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: of the parents committing murder on their child because they

664
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: were frustrated and didn't want to have the child anymore.

665
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: Then the theory of psychotic break rears it, said Cole Waterman.

666
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: What is next for this mother? Next up? Her case

667
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: has been bound over to the circuit court, so her

668
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: options going forward are either a trial by jury or

669
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,479
Speaker 1: judge or I don't know if any plea negotiations would

670
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: be going on in the case like this, but who knows. Yeah,

671
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: you're right about that. I'm sure the prosecutors are want

672
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: to keep that a secret if they were plating this

673
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: out cheap. We wait as justice unfalls Nancy Grace Scrum's story,

674
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye Friend,