WEBVTT - Ep. 829: Who Will Save the Columbia River's Salmon? 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.320 This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.319 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.360 can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.600 I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds, 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.160 no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:34.160 no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.559 first light dot com. That's f I R S T 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:43.440 L I T E dot com. 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:45.279 All right, welcome to the me Eater Podcast. 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.880 They we're gonna dig into something of great importance that 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:50.560 we touched on a bunch of times in the past. 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.600 Is what in the world happened to and what is 0:00:54.680 --> 0:01:00.520 going on with the Columbia River and the same runs. 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.360 I mean, this is a story that's played out over 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.600 centuries historically the Columbia. 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:08.840 I pulled this from your guys website. The guests. I'm 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:09.839 going to introduce a minute. 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.520 I had always read that the historically the Columbia had 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:22.080 runs annual runs of ten to twelve million salmon. I 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:23.880 was reena today it could have been some years as 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:30.280 high as sixteen million salmon ran the Columbia. Our good 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:32.240 old body's Lewis and Clark, who come up every time 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.040 you're trying to describe something from the old timey days, 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:41.399 describe salmon in the Columbia as being inconceivable the numbers 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:46.840 they had fish, salmon species running from March to October, steelhead 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.559 in there all winter. And then, as we'll get into, 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:59.600 just a never ending series of mistakes, intentional actions, accidental 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.400 action have led it to be where it is just 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:09.079 small fractions of that small fractions of those numbers running 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.600 up and down the river. And we're going to talk 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:17.280 with a couple of guests today who have been involved 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.800 in sam and recovery on the Columbia River from an 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:27.480 intertribal perspective. So the Columbia River flowed through, how can 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.000 you guys, I'm leading up to my intro here of 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.080 you guys, but can you remind me how many miles 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:37.160 of river are in the Columbia basin. I think I 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.079 was reading about to say, I can't remember the number. 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.519 Well, the Columbia River itself, like where it's coming from 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.800 Canada is about seven hundred and fifty miles from the ocean, 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.000 but half of the Columbia's north of Canada. And then 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.359 you've got all of the major tribs, you know, from 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:59.320 the Yakama, the Wenatchee, the Snake, the Wyamat, you know, 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.680 just all up and down the river. So you're looking 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.160 at even now in the high water years, half a 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:11.280 million cfs have flowed down by Bonnonville Dam. 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.040 Yeah, so half a million cubic feet per second YEP 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.480 of water flowing through there. And the folks we're gonna 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:26.520 talk today about tribal efforts to recover fish. The tribes 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:30.120 acknowledging that the states just aren't doing it at the 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.840 speed they would like and with the vision that they 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:34.880 would like them to have. The Feds aren't doing it 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.760 at the speed they would like, and they're not pursuing 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.640 the vision they would like them to pursue. So increasingly 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.280 the tribes Native American tribes have been getting involved in this. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:45.880 And we're going to. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.680 Speak today with Doug Hatch, who's the deputy manager of 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:54.360 the Fishery Science Department of the Columbia River Intertribal Fish Commission, 0:03:54.880 --> 0:04:03.320 and also Donella Donnella. Donella Miller is the Fishery Science manager. 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.240 And real quick, before we dig in too much, can 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:11.240 you can you tell people what tribes are in inner 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:12.440 tribal organization. 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.839 Yeah, we're a consortia. We represent we're a technical arm 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.359 of of course the Yackamanation, which I'm a tribal member of, 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:26.000 and also the Confederated Tribes and bands of the Yu 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.440 Matilla Indian Reservation, which my grandmother was from, so I'm 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:34.160 also part of Matilla as well, but also the Warm 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.919 Springs Tribe and Oregon and the nez Pers in Idaho, Okay. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:40.839 So yeah, we work with those four tribes on Columbia 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:45.040 basin issues and all four you know treaty tribes. We 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.040 signed treaties with the government in eighteen fifty five to 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:53.880 retain our you know, hunting, fishing, and gathering rights throughout 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.560 our our usual and accustomed areas. And that's really key 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.080 because you know, we seated land to the to the 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:06.839 government in exchange for the set boundaries of the reservation 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:12.880 and also to hunt, fish and gather in perpetuity throughout 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:18.520 our you know, our natural areas. 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.640 And that and then that right is infringed by the 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.040 fact that then the people you signed the treaty with 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.159 went ahead and destroyed the fishery. 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.360 Yeah, and that's really key. The work that we do is, 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.039 you know, those rights mean nothing if there's no fish 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.440 to catch. The right isn't just to dip our nets 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.120 in empty waters. It's actual catch fish. And there's language 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:45.000 in the treaty that talks about our ability to maintain 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:51.800 a modest living and people can support themselves on it anymore. 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.920 Our people unfortunately live in poverty up and down the 0:05:55.520 --> 0:06:00.080 Columbia River at treaty access sites that aren't meant to 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.080 be lived in. It's more or less boat ramps, and 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.760 you know, they don't have water power, just a bathroom. 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:11.400 But it's not definitely not what we signed up for. 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.400 Yeah, yeah, So we're gonna tell that story first. I 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.919 gotta I want to do what day? When did the 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:20.159 thing drop that we made in Texas? 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.359 When is it? Because I explained this all big time. 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.080 In text already dropped, but we're trying to hit it 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:26.480 multiple times. 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.040 Just being cognizant of the fact that So we record 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:34.799 a showdown in Texas talk about taint and meat, skunks, 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:41.880 nutsign a cat in that we explained that there's if 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.000 you subscribe to the show, you're gonna see If you 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:45.360 subscribe to the podcast. 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:46.400 You're gonna see some changes coming up. 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.920 In March nine, So starting is it March nine, that's 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:54.600 what that's gonna happen. Yeah, starting in March nine, you're 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.920 gonna start seeing every week you're gonna see two Meat 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:01.560 Eater podcasts drops. The regular Monday thing that you subscribe 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.520 to you now stays the same, and that's like the 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:05.120 interview show. So that would be like what we're doing 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:09.000 right here, right now, we're sitting around with tribal fisheries 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:12.880 managers having an interview with them about their area of expertise. 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:13.920 That's like the. 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.040 Interview portion of the show, and that will always drop 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:20.200 at the same time. In addition to that, there's gonna 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.840 be a weekly news show, news and commentary drop. As 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:28.520 I explained, it's like Spencer's concept. We cover our news, 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.200 your news, and the news on the news show. Okay, 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.320 three kinds of news that will drop sometime during the week. 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:39.080 It'll vary to when it comes out. The folks you 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:40.720 know and love, and the kind of material you know 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:45.600 and love from Radio Live, that stuff will move on 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:47.640 to this news show. Radio Live won't be like a 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.320 set There won't be a live thing anymore, and it 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.880 won't occur at a set time anymore. There'll be the 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.720 news and commentary show which comes out. When it comes out, 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.440 stay tuned for all that there'll be some new art work. 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:01.960 You'll know what happened because there'll be a new artwork. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:03.800 That'll be the best way you'll know that that happens. 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:06.720 You'll be like, oh, a new artwork? Must this thing happening? 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:10.120 Please subscribe on YouTube and wherever you listen to podcasts. 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:10.880 That helps a lot. 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:13.960 Uh, you know what word I learned today from you 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.520 guys website. I'm gonna do a trivia test. Don't don't 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:20.440 don't you know you guys notice we don't tell anybody. 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:22.480 I'm gonna trivia test these guys. So I was on 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:26.200 the Columbia River Inner Tribal Fish Commission site today. 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:29.240 What is the word? 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:34.480 I'm like Spenser here, what is the word for a 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:39.319 fish that spawns once and dies? It's in the same 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:44.720 vein of like anadromous catagromus. It's like that flavor of 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.000 a word. But it's me you spawn once and die. 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:56.080 I've heard it like a scientific name like die. 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.920 Yeah, you're being clever like diet. 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:03.679 I thought he's being clever too. 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:05.040 I didn't think at first. I didn't think he's being 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.000 clever than I thought he's being clever. It's like, it's 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:09.680 that flavor. 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:13.760 What is that Latin? I don't know. Is it Latin? Diadronous, 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.480 catatrouts Oh. 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:16.280 No, I should look that up. 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:21.960 Monogamous, No, no, I know I've heard it before, but 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:23.480 I don't I. 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:29.120 Know there was a word you ready, None of you 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.200 guys got it. I've never even heard the damn word. 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.120 Catatromist comes from Greek roots. 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.640 Oh it's Greek. This is probably Greek sel paris. 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.280 So it's not like those words really at all. 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:46.000 When flavor, I mean like a foreign language sounding deal. 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.440 You know, I guarantee it's greed. I never heard that 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:51.520 word in my note You know, you got like a 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:53.960 notes function on your phone. I keep words that I 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.880 need to incorporate into my vocabulary on a little list like. 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.400 So those but those are only the fish that after 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:04.840 they sponsor, not atlantic head, not ocean run. 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.640 Cuts, semil paris. I should know this because I took Latin. 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:11.480 It does have Latin roots. It combines semol meaning once 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.079 or a single time, and pario meaning to give birth 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:16.120 or produce. 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:18.880 Another thing. I learned. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:20.880 We're gonna go way back deep before you get to this. 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:22.800 Nothing I learned on your site. The kind blew my 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:27.320 mind is those dams, the dams on the Columbia system. 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:28.800 Did a way to think about it. 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.480 When baby salmon, when Smoltz are coming back down the river, 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:37.200 it's basically you lose seven to fifteen percent of them 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:42.000 die at each dam. Wow, just an incredible way to 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:42.600 think about it. 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.160 Yeah, can you and how many are there? 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:49.240 How many dams are no? Idea? Well, there's four they 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:50.400 can stay up to close your mic. 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.120 Oh, there's four on the the lower part of the 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.160 Mainstem Columbia, and then you have the four in the 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:01.520 lower Snake River. And then there's also privately owned dams 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.920 that are owned by the Mid Columbia Public Utility districts. 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.600 So there's four four right in the mid Sea. So 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.440 there's eight on the main Stem Columbia before you get 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:17.840 to Roosevelt, right or well the Grand Cooley. 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:22.000 Yeah, Chief Joseph is impassable and then Grand Cooley is 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.600 upstream of that. But yeah, if you're going to the 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:29.199 headwaters of the of the Columbia, which would be the 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.439 Matau River, if you're up there, you're going to go 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.840 over nine dams on the main stem. More, if you 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:36.640 go on up the tributaries, if you go up the Snake, 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.120 you're going over eight dams before you ever get to 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.120 the Salmon River, the Naha or any of those big 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:43.080 rivers in the Snake. 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:45.560 Eight times fifteen, that's a big number. 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:46.320 It's big. 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:50.800 Let's say. 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:55.360 Yeah, and then there's mortality coming upstream too, you know, 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.839 not just every adult just because there's a fish ladder. 0:11:57.840 --> 0:11:59.920 You got to find that fish ladder and you got 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:01.760 to negotiate it, you got to get over it, you 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.760 got to avoid the predators. You've got lots of stuff. 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:06.800 Can can you guys lay out a little bit, like. 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:16.120 What did the system look like before the first major impact, 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.120 before the first major negative impact came to, which I 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:23.400 guess was the canary fish canaries? Like what did like 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.960 just try to help people visualize, Like nowadays people think 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:31.360 about salmon runs and it's like Alaska, right, when you 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:36.199 think about salmon runs, it's Bristol Bay, right. This was 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.960 a bigger salmon run than those, The biggest salmon run, 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:42.840 the biggest salmon run in the country, the biggest salmon 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:43.240 run in. 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:49.080 The world was the Columbia. Yeah, you wouldn't have been 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:49.640 that you had to get. 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:51.880 You wouldn't go to Alaska to see big salmon runs, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.480 like the Columbia was the big salmon run? Like what 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.160 did that look like? Like what fish were there? You know, 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.640 to what quantity? Is it even possible? No one scientifically 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.080 measured it, but like what did it look like? 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:06.480 It was? 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.920 Well, that's why Solilo falls, right, that's historically that was 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:15.000 the major trading hub of the Pacific Northwest. You know 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:19.800 that people came from you know, the the Midwest to 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.480 trade Buffalo and the ocean area to trade salt for salmon. 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:23.880 We had. 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.960 It was even obsidian and tool making and things like that. 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:33.000 It was inconceivable. And that's why the over exploitation happened 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.320 because you know, like you said, you read the old 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:40.360 timey descriptions and they thought it was an inexhaustible resource, 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.040 that there was so much that people were able to 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:49.560 gather what they needed. And that's that's what sustained life 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:54.240 in our region for millennia. And it was just you know, 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:58.199 the the trading and the tribal people living amongst the 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:02.360 land is you know, in physically a part of nature, 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.320 and you know, it's just a it was a completely 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:11.280 different way of thinking of you know, like exploitation and 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.960 things like that, but that I don't know that That's 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.600 why it seems so that thought process was different from 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.440 the way that we lived, as you know, taking and 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.320 being a part of the system versus coming in Like 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.840 how you said, the first major negative impact would have 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.200 been the fish wheels and the and even the sainting 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.400 and things like that, and so those types of things happened. 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.920 And you know, when you look at different everything is 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:43.560 always viewed as a resource and how can that benefit man? 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.920 And you know, you hear about the salmon, but even 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.800 further down the road, the salmon kind of became a 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.720 problem to development in the of the Columbia River system 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.720 when they were looking at the placement of the hydro system, 0:14:57.160 --> 0:14:59.720 because then they would have to incorporate fish ladders and 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:02.320 deal with the salmon. It would have been easier if 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.400 they did away from with all these natural runs and 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.080 we could retain salmon, but you retain it in the 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.000 lower river below the dams, so they didn't have to 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.800 do all these extra steps to maintain the stocks. That's 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.760 why you see a lot of those hatcheries are below 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.200 Bonnaville Dam, and it's unnatural, you know, spring Chinook and 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:25.120 Koho and things like that, and those hatteries still operate, 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:28.680 but the tribes have been working to try to restore 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.960 and bring them back into their natal areas throughout and 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.080 even to me, I think those numbers that you read 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.320 are actually kind of low, the. 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:39.640 Ten to sixteen million. 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.920 Airess, because even today you could get you know, there's 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.480 been a lot of work in the Okanagan Basin and 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:50.160 Lake Okanagan in Canada where they've we've seen ski returns 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:54.920 up to eight hundred thousand adult sakai returning past Bonneville. 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.080 And just to think that's just one lake and there's 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.600 all these other block areas and the tributaries and if 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.200 today we could get back almost a million of just 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.080 one stock, that and a lot of that work was done. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.360 It was exhaustive estimate, and they looked at a lot 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.200 of the cannery records and what they were able to process, 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:17.840 but I think there was more waste than there were 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.440 fish actual process. You see those old pictures where you 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.200 know you have salmon four feet deep and they're just 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:28.640 working those cannory lines, Well, when that obviously went bad, 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.320 every day they just shove it out and bring in more. 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:35.440 So there was because you yeah, yeah, that's the way 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:37.480 it was viewed. And just kind of going back to 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.920 what you what we were talking about the fifteen percent 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.640 at every project. That's only the impact of what that 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:48.440 dam itself causes, like fish going through the turbines or 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.720 you know, like in the spill way they get disoriented 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.600 and things like that. But that's not adding in all 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.680 of the other factors that those dams create, the reservoirs 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:03.040 and the slack water water quality and the predation and 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.040 all those types of things. So the impacts are huge, 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.560 and you're right, you add it up, there shouldn't be 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.480 any more fish left. It's just amazing that that we 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:12.840 still have fish coming back. 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:14.400 Yeah, I's clarifying that percentage. 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.399 I was making a joke about fifteen times eight, but 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.440 the estimate is seven to fifteen percent, so it's not all. 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.360 You know, fifteen percent is the high end of what 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:22.639 the estimated loss. 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:26.080 Is just direct dam mortality, but that doesn't take into 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.760 account the slack water it creates, the habitat that creates 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:34.120 for pacivorous predators to eat the fish. They get disoriented 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.560 when they go through the dam, birds pick them off. 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.080 So all of that predation part isn't part of that 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:44.240 damn mortality. That's just the direct mortality from the dam 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.119 and kind of quickly, I guess historically by the numbers, 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.360 it was right now, you've got a spring chinook run, right, 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.320 that's like eighty to one hundred and fifty thousand fish, 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:56.920 and then it drops way off for the summers down 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.680 to ten or twenty thousand. And then in the fall 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.439 that's the big run now, and it's gonna run a 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.560 couple hundred thousand fish, you know, you know, a really 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.880 good years half million or something. And historically it was 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.520 it was a big curve, it was a big mountain. 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.800 That summer chinook run. That's so low that was the peak. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:21.199 Oh so Harvard, all of these impacts have split it 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.880 into these three different groups of chinook. And so you've 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.000 got the fall chinook, which seems like which is the 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:30.560 biggest now, But historically that was the tail. You know, 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.920 it was those summer run and so and and that's 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.560 what they were going after the early canneries and stuff 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:42.000 was the most abundant, you know, group, and so they 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.359 they made those big impacts on that, and that was 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.480 the June hogs. That included all of the really big 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.639 fish that went up, you know, into the Lower Snake 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:53.480 River up in the Upper Columbia. You know, the fish 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.680 that were one hundred and thirty, one hundred and forty pounds. 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.480 Man, jeez, that's a big fish. 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.920 It's like, yeah, yeah, we catch those like eight ten 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.160 pounders in southeast. 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.120 Like, yeah, they gotta be twenty eight where we fish, 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:09.040 they gotta be twenty eight inches. Your eyes like, sweet, 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.200 he's twenty. 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:12.399 And like you go into the bars, you know, you 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.280 go into old bars, you know, and you know, I 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:19.120 see these kings you know from whatever, yep, half century ago, 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.159 and you're like, dude, are they you know, are they 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:22.960 there anymore? 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.960 These one hundred plus pound fish? But just like there's not, 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.600 and there's fewer and viewer and viewer and viewer fewer 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:31.960 and fewer. 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.920 We do we do sampling up Bonneville, damn. So we 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.840 we sample all of the fish runs coming through Bonneville, 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:42.520 and we'll get a text from from from the texts 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:44.280 that are sampling. It's like, here's a really big one. 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:49.600 And a big one now is you know, sixty seventy pounders? Ok? Yeah, 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.720 those are pretty rare and it used to not be 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.040 even you know, a mere thirty five years ago. When 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.199 I started, it was we'd get a lot more of 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.800 those than we do now. So definitely the size of 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.840 mature or the size of the adult fish has gone down. 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.000 The largest I've caught was sixty three pounds, and that 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:16.440 seemed like a monster that Gilnetting, yeah, and our fall fishery, 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.680 but I had it, really had an aha moment back 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.600 when so I think I was eighteen as a technician 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:26.600 working in the Metaw River. We're doing spring chinook spawning 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.919 ground surveys and it was getting later in the season, 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.199 and so there was this portion of the mainstem that 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:34.720 would float on the on the Mettaw River and there's 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.280 it runs into a wall, there's a big pool, and 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.640 we floated our raft down and it was just there 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.879 was a group of probably about thirty big june hogs summerschanook. 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.480 They were huge. Of course you get the magnification of 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.119 the water, but they were still huge. And we just 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:52.639 floated around in there and watched them. They were just 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:55.880 holding up, waiting to head up to spawn. But it's 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.160 just so amazing to see those things. And you were 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:02.320 talking about how many miles inland. Also, when I worked 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:04.800 up in the Metal, where I think I looked at it. 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:06.760 I looked on the map to see it was like 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.200 eight hundred and forty miles or something. 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.120 Well, they had come that far in this. 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.200 Little bitty tributary to the Metal where we were doing 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.520 a spawning ground survey, and I was like, just like, 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:18.680 because we had to hike in and then walk down 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.000 the creek, is like, how did this fish even make 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.359 it back here? It's amazing. And then we were walking 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:28.280 down another section and there's portions that get dewatered in 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.400 the fall, and we found a couple of springs nook 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.400 in this pocket by this boulder, and so my coworker 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.320 he takes off one side of his hip waiter and 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.560 then we fill it with water and put that fish 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:42.800 in there, and we just ran it like a couple. 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:44.720 He was stranded. 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:46.760 Yeah, he was pulling off because irrigation draw. 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.200 Yeah, So we ran it back to so he could 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:52.399 reconnect with the river. It's like, you can't make it 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:53.080 this far. 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.800 And not live, O man. 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:56.280 Really. 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.240 Yeah, So the things you run into being out there, 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:05.240 it's just that that's what really helps people's connection to understand, 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:10.280 and you know, just thinking and realizing how much they've 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:11.440 gone through to get back. 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:18.199 Yeah, can you a little bit explain the process, I 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:21.240 guess just the evolved thinking that that led to the 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:24.720 creation of a tribal organization that would get involved in 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:29.320 fisheries management. I know, like in some notes Krint had 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:34.040 from pre interviews, she talked about that there was a 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:40.840 growing frustration that the States and the Feds weren't moving 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.800 the way, weren't moving this the way you wanted to move, 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:48.560 and that the goal was set in a way that 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:52.680 that the tribes weren't comfortable with the goal like say, 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:55.200 like basically the goal being let's save the fish from 0:22:55.200 --> 0:23:00.960 genetic extinction. Yeah, and that wasn't that that doesn't satisfy 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:02.600 native peoples on the river. 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:08.040 No, Unfortunately, a lot of the fish are managed on 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.359 ESA levels, right, that's holding things on the brink of extinction. 0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:16.600 And that's one of the issues with the ESA itself. Well, 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:21.000 for one, it's not proactive, and two they have protections 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:24.320 when things get really bad to save them from extinction. 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:28.640 But there's nothing in the act that's binding its recommendations 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:34.280 towards recovery. There's no requirements to recover species so it's 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.639 just the minimal amount possible that you could do to 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:41.600 keep this from this species from going extinct. And you 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:45.560 know that's not acceptable, you know as society, not just 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:49.399 with tribes, of allowing species to go extinct or you know, 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:52.480 we don't want museum relics that in the river that 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:54.720 we look at. You know, we want to be able 0:23:54.760 --> 0:24:00.399 to enjoy the bounty and continue our way alife, you know, 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:02.600 kind of getting what we signed up for in the treaties. 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:06.679 And that's where the really you know, sustainable, healthy and 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:11.600 sustainable populations that were able to harvest because you know, 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:14.600 we've talked about treaty rights and our ability to harvest, 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:18.399 but that's a shared right that we have with you know, 0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:23.760 with the public right the treaties. There's been two big 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:27.439 court cases that kind of led to the formation of 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:31.919 our organization and really the formation of the tribes taking 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:37.639 a leading role. First was usb Oregon, and that was 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:41.800 really the tribes being established as a co manager of 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:44.840 the resource because it was a treaty right, so it's 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:47.600 our you know, we have the obligation to ensure that 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:51.879 it persists for future generations. And then several years later 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:57.040 we had usv. Washington that made the determination that the 0:24:57.119 --> 0:25:02.800 tribes were entitled to fifty percent of the harvestable run, 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:05.520 not just fifty percent of the total, the fifty percent 0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:09.919 of the harvestable run. And so we have the you 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:13.679 know that unfortunately, you know, I've heard others. You know, 0:25:14.440 --> 0:25:19.000 what I've learned is unfortunately we operate operate in gavel 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:22.399 the gavel fish management because you talk about gravel, the 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.879 gravel like right, you're inclusive of the entire life cycle. 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:29.560 But unfortunately we work in gavel the gavel because it's 0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:35.399 the real Yeah, and that's I saw that. You have 0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:38.439 a show out that talks about the recent litigation on 0:25:38.560 --> 0:25:41.920 the hydro operations of the on the Snake River dam, 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:44.919 and that's kind of been pulled in really kind of 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:50.640 unfortunately became just a breach campaign. But it's to us, 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:53.680 it's a lot more than that. Because with our with 0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:58.879 our culture, everything the importance, everything has a purpose, a 0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:01.800 place and a purpose. And so we really have that 0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:06.600 holistic management aspect, and you know, we don't really have 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:08.840 the silos that a lot of the state and federal 0:26:08.840 --> 0:26:12.200 agencies work under. That's why you know, we have people 0:26:12.200 --> 0:26:14.879 that want to work for tribes that really care about, 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:18.200 you know, the resource and things like that, because everything 0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:20.959 that we do is so broad, and you know, like 0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:24.160 I'm wearing the sturgeon hat, and you know, like all 0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:27.919 species are important to us, not just the salmon, but sturgeon, 0:26:28.119 --> 0:26:32.919 lam prey, even you know, trout and bridge lip suckers 0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:36.639 and all of those things that are a part of nature. 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:39.520 But you know, we hold all of those things sacred 0:26:39.560 --> 0:26:42.760 as our first foods. And so that's the way we 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:46.280 what we bring to the table in our management aspect, 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:50.040 because you know, we're not about esa level. We don't 0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:53.000 want museum real li likes. We went healthy and sustainable, 0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:57.840 and we would love more than to have work ourselves 0:26:57.880 --> 0:26:59.480 out of a job. That's what I've heard one of 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:04.680 my other bosses say. But just you know, the tools 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:06.760 that we have to work with along the way, like 0:27:07.560 --> 0:27:09.680 you know, hatch reproduction. I know there's a big a 0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:13.160 lot of issues between hatchy versus wild and the tribes 0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:16.679 do do a lot of supplementation hatter reproduction, but we 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:20.480 try to bring in non conventional methods. It's not just 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:24.800 fitch factories pumping out numbers. We're you know, using we 0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:28.240 have a genetics lab, a state of the art genetics 0:27:28.320 --> 0:27:30.800 lab that we have in cooperation with the University of 0:27:30.840 --> 0:27:35.879 Idaho that's located in southern Idaho and Hagerman. So we're 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:38.919 kind of leading the way on the genetics side. And 0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:43.080 then also the way we implement our hatcheries is not 0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:45.960 just releasing them all directly from the hatchery, but taking 0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:49.399 them out to acclamation sites so they could return to 0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:53.239 areas that have suitable spawning habitat and things like that. 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:56.400 And as Doug mentioned, we do all the monitoring at 0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:59.359 Bonneville Dam of all the stocks that are coming through. 0:28:00.040 --> 0:28:04.600 We're able to take that information and which also aids 0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:08.800 in harvest management, and just our work is so broad 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:09.480 and diverse. 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:09.920 We have. 0:28:11.400 --> 0:28:14.880 Ocean you know, estuary program that we've acquired about five 0:28:14.960 --> 0:28:18.000 years ago now, so we're really looking, you know, like 0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:21.440 I said, gravel to gravel and bringing in all aspects, 0:28:21.520 --> 0:28:27.879 and you know the tribes have I'd say we're a 0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:32.840 lot less risk averse, I think because we take that 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:37.760 approach to be careful to do things. It's like we 0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:40.120 don't want to study things to death. You know, things 0:28:40.160 --> 0:28:43.960 get wrapped up in ten ten plus year studies before 0:28:44.000 --> 0:28:48.120 you could actually even do anything. It's like, and you know, myself, 0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:53.480 being the fish science manager, that was kind of I 0:28:53.560 --> 0:28:56.480 kind of thought twice about taking this job. It's like, 0:28:56.520 --> 0:28:59.360 I don't want to be just a research scientist. But 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:03.280 the approach that the tribes have been taking is like 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:07.960 applied research. You're taking actionable measures and measuring the success 0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:10.840 of those actions, and you know, you use what's working 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:15.280 and advance that. And yeah, I think that's the biggest thing. 0:29:15.360 --> 0:29:18.360 And you know, we've really grown a lot. Like I 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:22.760 mentioned those two court cases usv. Washington, usv. Oregon where 0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:27.640 you know, the tribes sued the states over harvest and 0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:30.720 you know, co management and things like that. But we've 0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:34.280 came a lot a long ways, and even just recently 0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:39.880 during that litigation on the Snake River, the hydro Operations 0:29:39.920 --> 0:29:43.840 litigation and form the six Sovereigns that's with our four 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:47.840 tribes and the states of Washington and Oregon and come together, 0:29:48.360 --> 0:29:51.040 and that's how we entered into a stay in litigation. 0:29:51.160 --> 0:29:53.480 It was meant to be a ten year stay with 0:29:53.960 --> 0:29:57.600 a set of commitments over the first five years. Then 0:29:57.640 --> 0:29:59.400 there was a check in and then it could have 0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.120 rolled over to another five years and we were just 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:06.120 getting started rolling in that and it was bringing commitments 0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:11.480 to the basin and also giving us a voice to 0:30:11.560 --> 0:30:15.640 look for appropriations. It's not like we weren't trying to 0:30:16.720 --> 0:30:20.959 upend energy prices or anything like that. It's just like, Okay, 0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:24.000 can you pay the true cost of the cheap electricity 0:30:24.040 --> 0:30:29.000 that you're benefiting from? And it's not really grandma's electricity 0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:33.240 or the common person, it's corporate, right. It's industrial customers 0:30:33.360 --> 0:30:36.680 that have really the huge benefit of our cheap power 0:30:36.680 --> 0:30:39.960 in the region. And that's why we're talking about fish 0:30:40.000 --> 0:30:45.280 in the Columbia Basin, but really a global global thing, right, 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:50.040 because of all of the industry that our region attracts 0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:52.880 because of the cheap power. Like back in the eighties 0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:55.800 and whatnot, we had the all of the big aluminum 0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:59.000 smelters where we have none of the natural resources to 0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:02.400 make aluminum, but they were all there because it was 0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:06.520 so cheap to process because of that cheap power. And 0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:09.880 then now we're seeing the new onslaught of that is 0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:12.760 data centers. We have data centers a. 0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:14.120 Lot all that electricity. 0:31:14.360 --> 0:31:17.760 Yeah, and water. That's the bad thing is like there's 0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:22.560 always extraction and then we're already like operating in a deficit, 0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:26.200 but yet we're planning for a future that we don't 0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:29.920 even have the resources for. And that's why the tribes 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:33.160 really bring that to the table of like who's looking 0:31:33.200 --> 0:31:36.000 out for the resource and what's best for the environment. 0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:38.960 And that's why we talk about salmon being a keystone 0:31:39.000 --> 0:31:43.320 species because it's it's good for everyone. What's good for 0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:45.840 the salmon is good for the environment and for the 0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:49.959 people and us looking out for that in that holistic manner. 0:31:51.200 --> 0:31:53.080 I got three observations I want to hit you with. 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:57.120 One is you don't need to take the sound. But 0:31:57.160 --> 0:32:00.040 you know, like people like to look at sort of 0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:06.880 singular things that had global impacts. And there's this argument 0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:09.800 that the reason we won World War two is because 0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:12.800 the dams on the Columbia system, because we could out 0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:16.560 we could produce aircraft, we had enough power to smelt 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:21.720 enough aluminum and we out aircraft the Germans. And so 0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:24.480 you know, whether that's true or not, it always like 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:26.800 sticks in my head, like thinking about what a mistake 0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:31.560 those ultimately, what a mistake those dams were, And I 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:34.120 think about that question and always like it's just a 0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:37.320 complication in there. We had on second observations we had 0:32:37.360 --> 0:32:43.960 on RFK Junior when he was running for president, and 0:32:44.160 --> 0:32:46.360 he went and took over Health and Human Services under 0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:47.320 the Trump administration. 0:32:47.440 --> 0:32:48.480 But when he was he. 0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:52.040 Was on he's talking about his career and litigate environmental litigation, 0:32:53.400 --> 0:32:56.240 and he said, when you look at these big, these 0:32:56.240 --> 0:33:02.880 big corporations, and they think there are these like free 0:33:03.000 --> 0:33:08.959 enterprise organizations, he says, they never ever pay the cost. 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:14.680 They don't acknowledge that they don't pay the cost. But 0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:19.440 in producing that electricity or producing those metals, they never 0:33:19.520 --> 0:33:21.920 had to account to the American people of what they 0:33:22.160 --> 0:33:27.240 took from you to make those things. Like, no one's 0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:32.640 ever build them for the cost of an annual run 0:33:33.600 --> 0:33:37.840 of twelve million salmon. No one's paid that, you know. 0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:41.320 He's like, they don't admit it, but they're subsidized. They're 0:33:41.360 --> 0:33:44.400 subsidized by what they take from everybody in terms of 0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:46.480 fish or in terms of anything clean water, Like, has 0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:47.200 anyone ever. 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:50.560 Build them for do you know what I mean? Does 0:33:50.600 --> 0:33:53.320 anyone build them for what the clean water should be worth? 0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:54.600 They'll never pay that shit. 0:33:55.760 --> 0:33:59.240 Yeah, we have mitigation goals of the impacts of the 0:33:59.280 --> 0:34:04.320 hydrosystem that have never been met. Fifty sixty years and 0:34:04.400 --> 0:34:07.560 they've never met them. By millions. I think we're barely 0:34:07.560 --> 0:34:10.320 even at half of what we should have been getting 0:34:10.960 --> 0:34:13.640 sixty years ago. Imagine how much that would add up 0:34:13.680 --> 0:34:16.680 to what the tab is. The way that gets wipe 0:34:16.760 --> 0:34:20.920 clean is they're working toward interim goals. Fifty years later, 0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:24.760 we're still just working towards interim goals. And even today, 0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:28.319 the interim goals that we're working towards towards restoration that 0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:32.600 we actually have the teeth to push on is five 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.960 to eight million, and that was determined by the Northwest 0:34:36.000 --> 0:34:39.560 Power and Planning Council. Of that is the direct impacts 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:43.120 of this hydrosystem is the five to eight million, and 0:34:43.160 --> 0:34:46.719 then that's when then the other the other losses are 0:34:46.760 --> 0:34:50.480 due to irrigation and the tributaries and other types of 0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:55.640 urbanization and things like that. So we're we'll never get 0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:58.759 fully get back what we had, but you know, I 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:00.839 know we could do better because and a lot of 0:35:00.840 --> 0:35:06.600 that too is just people's resistance to change, and you 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:09.160 know that that's the way we've always done things, and 0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:13.960 the status quo continues and until they I don't know, 0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:17.479 it's hard, and like you said, you will never get back. 0:35:18.200 --> 0:35:20.880 We don't pay the truth cost for power, and a 0:35:20.920 --> 0:35:25.000 lot of this stuff is for export foreign companies that 0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:28.840 come in and exploit our resources. And you still have 0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:31.799 communities that you know, they were promised jobs, but that's 0:35:31.880 --> 0:35:36.600 only during the construction and what's ongoing is minimal. Like 0:35:36.680 --> 0:35:40.880 even with Google and the City of the Dallas. You know, 0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:45.640 they came in and updated their their waste waste treatment plant, 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:49.719 but then they built a data center and then two 0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:53.560 more data centers, and now they're overwhelming that infrastructure that 0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:57.879 they promised, and they were taking groundwater and so they 0:35:57.880 --> 0:36:01.040 have communities just south of town that are coming up 0:36:01.080 --> 0:36:03.759 with dry wells and things like that. And now they 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:08.560 want to buy land in the National Forest to be 0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:12.600 able to create a reservoir to extract more water. 0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.719 And then, like Sam Altman and Elon Musk, they'll never 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:19.799 they'll you know, he'll emerge as the world's first trillionaire 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:22.439 and there will never be a reckoning. There will never 0:36:22.480 --> 0:36:24.680 be a reckoning for the cost of what they did. 0:36:25.960 --> 0:36:26.200 Never. 0:36:26.840 --> 0:36:29.479 Yeah, it was funny. We applied for a grant from 0:36:29.520 --> 0:36:31.680 Google because they have this they want to be green 0:36:31.800 --> 0:36:35.279 by twenty thirty or something, and then we have a 0:36:35.320 --> 0:36:38.360 delta project where the Clicktet River comes into the Columbia 0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:41.280 that needs some major work. It's never had any maintenance, 0:36:41.360 --> 0:36:45.280 Like you could practically walk halfway across the Columbia because 0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:47.840 that sandbar is so big because you don't have the 0:36:47.880 --> 0:36:51.000 freshets that that flush it out. And that's one of 0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:54.160 our big issues that we'll work on. It's predation, hot 0:36:54.200 --> 0:36:57.200 spots and warm water and things like that. But we 0:36:57.280 --> 0:37:01.760 applied for that Google grant. It's just downstream, just across 0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:03.759 the river. We didn't even make it past the pre 0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:08.440 proposal phase. And when we asked why, like why wouldn't 0:37:08.480 --> 0:37:11.600 this qualify it has good merit and everything, they gave 0:37:11.680 --> 0:37:19.799 us AI response, Yeah. 0:37:19.080 --> 0:37:20.600 So you paid for your own response. 0:37:23.160 --> 0:37:27.319 I want to get in like one of the things 0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:28.520 that I want to talk about, what we want to 0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:30.879 talk about. I was like, what can like what are 0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:31.759 things that can be done? 0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:32.400 You know? 0:37:32.680 --> 0:37:34.399 And I want to get into that, like like sea 0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:36.080 lions and all that. But there's a thing I want 0:37:36.120 --> 0:37:37.640 to there's a third thing I wanted to bring up. 0:37:37.640 --> 0:37:40.120 And I'm almost I'm embarrassed to tell you this, but 0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:42.000 all these guys here can vouch me on this. 0:37:42.480 --> 0:37:42.879 It's like. 0:37:44.680 --> 0:37:47.920 I was raised in the Great Lakes, Okay, and I 0:37:48.040 --> 0:37:53.200 was raised to know that like the real villains in 0:37:53.280 --> 0:37:56.000 fisheries management, it's always the natives. 0:37:57.920 --> 0:38:00.680 Because people can't reconcile. They're like, they're like, how could 0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:01.040 it be that. 0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:05.839 They're conducting commercial fishing, you know, so they run Like 0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:09.120 in the Great Lakes, natals will run fish traps for whitefish, 0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:12.600 which white people don't. I mean, like generally speaking, white 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:15.400 people don't fish whitefish. Generally some do, but it's not 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:18.799 like a top tier fish. People don't travel like to 0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:22.000 go there to fish whitefish. People want the non native 0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:25.640 shut or they like large miles of native fish all 0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:26.200 the salmon. 0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:27.040 Introduce salmon. 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:29.440 But you'll go and be like, the reason you didn't 0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:34.080 catch anything today is because of natives, right, And you'll 0:38:34.120 --> 0:38:37.759 hear it so much from guys in the Pacific Northwest, 0:38:38.040 --> 0:38:40.000 where they'll be, like you mentioned earlier, having a gillnet. 0:38:40.000 --> 0:38:42.799 They'll be like, that's the problem with the fishery, and 0:38:42.840 --> 0:38:45.759 it's like, but that's what you're raised to believe that 0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:48.759 because it's always like a blame game and you look 0:38:48.800 --> 0:38:54.120 at but bahom it, they fished here for twenty thousand, 0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:59.320 ten thousand, sixteen, like thousands of years supported to people 0:38:59.360 --> 0:39:05.160 on the fishery. Then European culture, like euro American culture, 0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:08.160 came in and destroyed the fishery. The things we did 0:39:08.239 --> 0:39:10.880 destroy the fishery. But now you look and there's some 0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:14.279 native people catching some fishing and that, and that's who's like, 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:16.279 that's who's the blame. It's pervas I don't even know 0:39:16.280 --> 0:39:20.160 if you realize how pervasive that thinking is, because it's 0:39:20.200 --> 0:39:22.480 like they it can't click, like how could they be 0:39:22.480 --> 0:39:26.200 commercial fishing when I can only keep one fish or 0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:28.320 I can't keep any fish, but they can commercial fish. 0:39:28.640 --> 0:39:32.480 That's who killed all the fish. It's out there, like 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:34.560 that perspective is just out there. 0:39:36.040 --> 0:39:40.600 Yeah, and I've lived it, you know, like growing up 0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:43.080 fishing on the Columbia, you do get a lot of 0:39:43.320 --> 0:39:45.799 a lot of hate. People come out and yell at 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:49.680 you and and things like that. And we've been shot 0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:52.640 at at night in the dark. We were out and 0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:55.239 I called the cops. The cops didn't even show up. 0:39:55.800 --> 0:39:58.520 You could see the muzzle flash. It sounded like a 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:00.479 twenty two and we were like, what the he We're 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:02.360 a good thing. We were a ways from shore in 0:40:02.400 --> 0:40:05.359 that kind of like a bay area in the nine 0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:07.120 to one to one operator, well, can you see what 0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:09.439 they're wearing? And I'm like, no, it's dark. I see 0:40:09.440 --> 0:40:12.680 a muzzle flash and can you let us know? And 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:14.879 it's like we got down and had to drive out 0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:17.400 of there. And another time I always remember there was 0:40:17.640 --> 0:40:20.640 an older gentleman. He followed us because you know, we're 0:40:20.680 --> 0:40:22.920 tied off of the bank. It was two and a 0:40:22.960 --> 0:40:26.600 half hours. He stood on the shore and yelled and 0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:29.880 cussed at us, like I called the cops, like I 0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:30.719 think he might need to. 0:40:30.800 --> 0:40:31.399 I don't want this. 0:40:31.360 --> 0:40:33.320 Guy to have a heart attack. Yeah, that's how it 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:36.440 worked up. He was and you know, like chucking rocks 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:37.759 at us and things like that. 0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:41.920 Because people can't picture the long history. They like they 0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:45.880 looked through the dam. They looked through the dam or 0:40:45.920 --> 0:40:49.560 past the dam, and they see you. And that's the problem, 0:40:49.840 --> 0:40:52.160 do you know what I mean? They're like they can't picture. 0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:54.400 What happened. 0:40:54.960 --> 0:40:59.120 Yeah, you know, yeah, I guess we're so visible. Right. 0:40:59.280 --> 0:41:02.960 There's there's there's plenty of non native gillnet fisheries that 0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:06.239 are happening in the Lower River and a lot in 0:41:06.280 --> 0:41:08.520 the ocean. But it's just we're visible. 0:41:08.760 --> 0:41:11.960 And that's like, if it wasn't for that little handful 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:14.040 of fish, everything can be better. It's like, no, dude, 0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:17.680 it wouldn't be better if you're not talking about the problem. 0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:20.080 You don't want to talk about the real problem. Yeah, 0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:21.720 you don't want to talk about the real problem. 0:41:22.120 --> 0:41:22.359 Yeah. 0:41:22.400 --> 0:41:25.440 The glass half full thing is I think it's awesome 0:41:25.480 --> 0:41:28.719 that people are starting to realize, like, you know, the 0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:32.240 work that we do, it benefits everybody, not just the tribes. 0:41:32.280 --> 0:41:37.400 It's everybody. And so like I've been at places like 0:41:37.400 --> 0:41:40.080 like a trade show or whatever, and then you know, 0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:42.120 somebody will come up look at my tag, like I 0:41:42.200 --> 0:41:44.360 want to shake your hand. You know, they're you know, 0:41:44.480 --> 0:41:47.920 part of the they're a fishing guide or something like that, 0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:50.400 and they'll say, we wouldn't have salmon if it weren't 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:51.719 for the Indians, And you. 0:41:51.640 --> 0:41:54.080 Know, people see that connection. 0:41:54.440 --> 0:41:56.279 Yeah, a little bit of that. So there, you know, 0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:59.239 we're starting to realize and and you know, just the 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:02.520 outreach and the partnerships that we have and that the 0:42:02.560 --> 0:42:05.520 benefits that we bring is for all and not just us. 0:42:06.160 --> 0:42:06.359 Yeah. 0:42:06.560 --> 0:42:10.439 So it's crazy. I mean we have commissioners that had 0:42:10.640 --> 0:42:15.120 spent time in federal prison for fishing, exercising their right 0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:20.520 to their treaty reserved right to fish and they were arrested, sentenced, 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:26.680 spent time in prison for fishing. So it's it's a 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:29.919 crazy deal. I'm from Idaho. I saw this the same 0:42:29.960 --> 0:42:34.920 thing you're talking about, Steve with the salmon what happened 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:39.719 in the salmon fisheries in the Columbia. But you know 0:42:39.760 --> 0:42:43.400 that led to those court decisions and then that formed, 0:42:44.080 --> 0:42:47.319 you know, out of that the tribal co management that 0:42:47.360 --> 0:42:50.800 formed the Columbia River Inner Tribal Fish Commission in nineteen 0:42:50.840 --> 0:42:55.160 seventy seven, and so this the tribe started building staff 0:42:55.600 --> 0:42:58.440 from then and now we're like at one hundred and 0:42:58.480 --> 0:43:02.040 fifty to one hundred and seventy people at Critic in Portland. 0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:06.080 Each of the four member tribes, the the the Yakama, 0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:10.600 Warm Springs, You, Matila, and Nesperse combined, we have like 0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:15.040 seven hundred and fifty people working on fish recovery. 0:43:15.760 --> 0:43:16.640 And I think that's. 0:43:16.440 --> 0:43:19.960 Where we get our the tribes get their power is 0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:23.760 that they're co managers and they got a singular focus 0:43:23.840 --> 0:43:26.799 on it's the fish Commission, right, It's not the it's 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:29.040 not the fish and Irrigation Commission. It's not we don't 0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:32.520 have the things that the states are. You know, they've 0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:35.080 got to look after all these other interests and this 0:43:35.200 --> 0:43:40.040 is singularly focused on fish recovery. So we're not what 0:43:40.160 --> 0:43:46.359 we want to do. We'll provide more fish to our constituents. 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:49.160 Are you know the tribal fishermen that are out there 0:43:49.400 --> 0:43:52.239 exercising their treaty right and they're entitled to half of 0:43:52.280 --> 0:43:56.359 that harvestable fish, and however they take them. They they 0:43:56.400 --> 0:43:59.600 decide how they're going to take them, and states decide 0:43:59.600 --> 0:44:02.560 how much they're going to split their fifty percent into 0:44:02.560 --> 0:44:06.719 sport fishing versus commercial fishing, however they want to divide it, 0:44:07.200 --> 0:44:09.560 and the tribes don't you know, they're party to that, 0:44:09.640 --> 0:44:11.440 but they don't tell the states how they're going to 0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:15.560 allocate their fisheries. And you know, kind of should go 0:44:15.640 --> 0:44:19.120 the same way for the tribes. This is this is 0:44:19.160 --> 0:44:24.839 a big conservation effort and they run hatcheries about ten 0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:28.160 hatches that are run by the tribes to get the 0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:30.760 money for it. And they don't catch all those fish. 0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:33.000 I mean, those fish are going out to the public. 0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:36.799 Everybody's catching them from here to the Gulf of Alaska. 0:44:37.880 --> 0:44:41.359 Well, we're kind of end users on some of that. 0:44:41.400 --> 0:44:44.200 There's some stocks of fish like the klick Atat, the 0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:48.799 majority of those are caught in Alaska and by you know, 0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:53.520 the other ocean fisheries along the West coast, and you know, 0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:56.080 we have a pie chart and then it shows all 0:44:56.120 --> 0:44:58.719 of the take and the tribal harvest is just this 0:44:58.800 --> 0:45:00.000 little bitty sliver. 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:02.839 That's the people putting them in and doing all the. 0:45:02.760 --> 0:45:06.279 Work to the habitat restoration, because the work that we 0:45:06.320 --> 0:45:10.080 do goes beyond just fish and that's what you know, 0:45:10.280 --> 0:45:13.600 like being in management now of like getting people to 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:16.759 understand like the things that we do, like you know, 0:45:16.960 --> 0:45:21.400 energy production is fish issues because of the hydrosystem, and 0:45:21.760 --> 0:45:26.080 habitat restoration and even roads like we have our habitat 0:45:26.120 --> 0:45:29.279 staff that they've worked with the DOT to like move 0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:32.880 a highway and and you know, putting in better fish 0:45:32.920 --> 0:45:37.319 passage and just you know, reconnecting rivers which helps you know, 0:45:37.440 --> 0:45:41.720 floods and flood management, flood risk and then also especially 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:44.960 in the face of climate change and how things are changing, 0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:47.520 like you were just talking about the weather here, you know, 0:45:47.600 --> 0:45:51.480 we're seeing that we're you know potentially in our three 0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:55.560 years of drought and this year isn't isn't looking much better, 0:45:55.840 --> 0:45:59.799 and so we had definitely have our work cut out 0:45:59.840 --> 0:46:03.919 for And it goes a long ways, and like Doug 0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:06.680 was saying about how the tribes choose to allocate the 0:46:06.719 --> 0:46:10.480 other thing that our jobs are so great to me, 0:46:10.600 --> 0:46:13.960 and why it means so much is on the cultural side. 0:46:14.560 --> 0:46:19.440 You know how much that that these things are natural 0:46:19.480 --> 0:46:22.480 resources and salmon we refer to ourselves as salmon people, 0:46:23.000 --> 0:46:28.160 you know, and it's cultural preservation and that that's really 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:30.799 what because I grew up in a traditional home with 0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:36.239 you know, like my mother and my grandparents and practicing 0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:39.359 our you know, hunting, fishing, gathering, and you know, our 0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:42.440 tribal religion and all of the things that go along 0:46:42.480 --> 0:46:45.840 with that. All of our ceremonies are centered around our 0:46:45.920 --> 0:46:49.920 natural resources, around the salmon and things like that, and 0:46:50.360 --> 0:46:53.000 you know, sadly we're losing that. And then that's how 0:46:53.600 --> 0:46:56.359 you know, people get led astray. You know, you have 0:46:56.600 --> 0:46:59.760 you know the effects of drugs and alcohol and stuff. 0:46:59.800 --> 0:47:03.439 But if we really had those things that for us 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:06.840 to be able to continue, I think would be better off. 0:47:07.040 --> 0:47:10.280 And well I know we would because you know, living 0:47:10.320 --> 0:47:14.759 in those communities and it's like we're lost. We're still 0:47:14.800 --> 0:47:18.800 lost because we were displaced by the construction of the 0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:23.440 dams on the river. We weren't relocated or subsidized or anything. 0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:27.319 It's just they came and spray painted on the on 0:47:27.440 --> 0:47:31.120 the houses like at Slilo Falls, took an inventory and 0:47:31.719 --> 0:47:35.520 that was it. We've never we've never received our Columbia 0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:38.760 River housing. And you know, for the villages that were flooded, 0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:41.239 it's just like your house is gone, you have. 0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:43.000 They've painted the ones that were going to be underwater. 0:47:44.280 --> 0:47:47.400 Yeah, just took an inventory and then people had no 0:47:47.520 --> 0:47:50.360 choice but to move to the reservation or drown. 0:47:50.960 --> 0:47:51.320 Yeah. 0:47:51.600 --> 0:47:55.399 Yeah, yeah. And it's funny even me realizing that now, 0:47:55.560 --> 0:47:57.320 Like you know, I was born on the reservation and 0:47:57.400 --> 0:48:00.799 Topish and I lived at my grandparents house. But I 0:48:00.880 --> 0:48:03.320 was even as just as an adult a couple of 0:48:03.400 --> 0:48:06.200 years ago, I realized, like that wasn't my grandpa's home. 0:48:06.520 --> 0:48:10.600 My grandpa was born, born and raised in at Salilo 0:48:11.360 --> 0:48:14.080 and he went to the war. It's so funny. Like 0:48:15.920 --> 0:48:20.320 my grandpa's older sister, she used to tell us this story, 0:48:20.400 --> 0:48:23.560 and even as an older lady, she would cry about 0:48:23.560 --> 0:48:28.040 it. It still gets to me. She was born with cataracts, 0:48:28.280 --> 0:48:31.000 so she was legally blind and so she couldn't help 0:48:31.040 --> 0:48:33.440 do all the work. So she took care of my grandpa. 0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:40.120 And she said, one day, Salilo, the government, the military, police, everything, 0:48:40.160 --> 0:48:44.040 they just pulled in with cattle trucks and they took 0:48:44.120 --> 0:48:47.760 the children by force and took them to a boarding school. 0:48:48.320 --> 0:48:52.479 And she said people were beaten, arrested, And she said 0:48:52.480 --> 0:48:56.200 that she held on to him and was dragged across 0:48:56.239 --> 0:48:59.680 the ground, crying, no, don't take him as just a baby, 0:48:59.840 --> 0:49:05.200 and she cried as an adult that she said, if 0:49:05.200 --> 0:49:07.480 I could have just held them a little longer, maybe 0:49:07.480 --> 0:49:08.359 they would have gave up. 0:49:09.920 --> 0:49:11.239 Then he went on to fight in the war. 0:49:12.480 --> 0:49:16.320 Yeah, he was four years old, taken to the boarding 0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:19.960 school in Warm Springs, Oregon. He didn't get to come 0:49:20.000 --> 0:49:24.359 home for two years, and that was only because they 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:28.520 were moving them to the boarding school at Fort Simcoe, 0:49:28.600 --> 0:49:32.279 which is on the Yakama Reservation. And then he was 0:49:32.320 --> 0:49:35.160 there through like elementary school, and then he got shipped 0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:38.240 to Chamaua, which is in Oregon. That's a high school, 0:49:38.480 --> 0:49:41.600 you know, boarding school, high school. He graduated from there 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:45.279 when he was seventeen and then he enlisted in the 0:49:45.360 --> 0:49:46.959 Navy and fought in World War Two. 0:49:47.320 --> 0:49:50.560 You kidding me? Yeah, and his home now sits underwater. 0:49:51.280 --> 0:49:53.919 That's the home that he came back to from the war. 0:49:55.480 --> 0:49:59.920 Yeah, you know what I was talking about, the con 0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:04.120 inflicks between like white dudes at fish and the perspective 0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:09.760 that native people's are taking fish. It's like everybody's fighting 0:50:09.760 --> 0:50:13.880 over crumbs. In some regions, everybody's fighting over crumbs and 0:50:13.920 --> 0:50:16.160 they don't even know what happened. Like if it's bread crumbs, 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:17.239 they don't know what happened. 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:17.800 To the loaf of bread. 0:50:18.560 --> 0:50:21.440 There's you know what I mean, it's just gone and 0:50:21.480 --> 0:50:27.319 now they're going to like fight for crumbs. And one 0:50:27.360 --> 0:50:29.160 of the ways that that like fighting for crumbs and 0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:31.439 it's it's I guess it's important because if once those 0:50:31.440 --> 0:50:33.799 crumbs are gone, everything's gone. You know, to think about 0:50:33.840 --> 0:50:36.120 like in terms of fish, right they if we lose 0:50:36.160 --> 0:50:39.080 the fish, if you lose all the memory of the 0:50:39.080 --> 0:50:41.520 fish and all the runs and all the historic areas, 0:50:41.640 --> 0:50:43.719 it's less that you can build up someday when you 0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:46.400 get it back together. But what turned me on to 0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:48.280 even wanting to talk to you guys is this idea 0:50:48.280 --> 0:50:50.720 and Heather, my friend Heather Duville sent me some links 0:50:50.719 --> 0:50:56.839 about it was was like the sea lion issue, and 0:50:57.200 --> 0:50:58.640 I want to talk about that for a minute, or 0:50:58.680 --> 0:51:00.440 have you guys explained the sea line issue for a 0:51:00.480 --> 0:51:03.759 minute just to sort of demonstrate this idea of that 0:51:04.920 --> 0:51:10.520 to fix the problem is like impossible, seemingly impossible damn removal. 0:51:10.560 --> 0:51:13.239 It's so hard, and so you. 0:51:13.200 --> 0:51:14.960 Got to look like, well, that's what would really like 0:51:15.040 --> 0:51:18.960 there's these huge things that would occur and you could 0:51:19.040 --> 0:51:21.400 slowly rebuild the whole thing, but in the meantime you 0:51:21.440 --> 0:51:24.640 got to like fight for crumbs. And it's even gotten 0:51:24.719 --> 0:51:29.000 what we're fighting for crumbs with sea lions. Can you 0:51:29.239 --> 0:51:32.480 talk about that issue a bit, like how sea lions 0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:33.239 play into this thing? 0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:40.680 Yeah? Sure, So sea lions were heavily managed in the 0:51:40.800 --> 0:51:45.719 late eighteen hundreds and then from like nineteen fifteen or 0:51:45.760 --> 0:51:49.080 so to nineteen seventy into Columbia. There's a bounty on 0:51:49.239 --> 0:51:52.120 sea lions bounty and a sea lion hunter. So the 0:51:52.800 --> 0:51:56.080 Oregon Fish Commission hired a guy that would shoot sea 0:51:56.120 --> 0:51:58.760 lions and cut their ears off and then get paid 0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:01.280 by how many sea lions he took care of. 0:52:01.360 --> 0:52:04.240 And that was specifically to protect the salmon room. 0:52:04.160 --> 0:52:07.880 Protect the salmon exactly. So that was the management that 0:52:07.920 --> 0:52:12.040 went on. And in that era of the early seventies 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:14.839 when all of the environmental laws got passed, you know, 0:52:14.880 --> 0:52:18.440 you had the Environmental Protection Act, the Clean Air Act, 0:52:19.920 --> 0:52:23.400 Marine Mammal Protection Act is passed in seventy two, and 0:52:23.480 --> 0:52:26.400 marine mammals were in terrible shape. I mean it was 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:31.719 really necessary. California sea lions were around twenty twenty five 0:52:31.760 --> 0:52:35.680 thousand coastwide, so it's managed as a single stock. It 0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:42.560 ranges from Baja California up to Lower BC. So that 0:52:42.640 --> 0:52:46.560 stock was twenty or twenty five thousand animals. Now there's 0:52:46.640 --> 0:52:50.640 close to three hundred thousand animals and it's at caring capacity. 0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:55.080 So the Marine Mammal Protection Act protected marine mammals. If 0:52:55.080 --> 0:52:56.359 you were a marine mammals. 0:52:56.120 --> 0:52:57.840 That can't protect effectively man. 0:52:57.800 --> 0:53:02.480 Yeah, and super successful, right, But what wasn't part of 0:53:02.520 --> 0:53:06.960 the all in and you know you had uh, sea otters, whales, 0:53:07.120 --> 0:53:09.560 all kinds of polar bears, all kinds of things that 0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:14.600 are super depressed, and there wasn't any thought put into management. 0:53:15.200 --> 0:53:17.279 You know, it's like we're going to lose them. We 0:53:17.440 --> 0:53:21.040 need to protect them. And it worked really really well 0:53:21.120 --> 0:53:25.160 on some populations like California sea lions. I mean they're 0:53:25.239 --> 0:53:29.320 way past recovered. They're at carrying capacity. It's the classic 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:33.640 S curve. It's plateaued. We're at at carraning capacity for 0:53:33.719 --> 0:53:34.920 sea lions coast wide. 0:53:37.239 --> 0:53:38.680 Is there is there any talk a dlisting? 0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:45.160 Oh, they're not well. See, it's different exactly. So if 0:53:45.200 --> 0:53:48.600 you're a marine, mamma, you're protected. Period. 0:53:48.880 --> 0:53:51.360 We've talked. We've talked about there's no management. 0:53:51.040 --> 0:53:53.000 There's no management provision at all. 0:53:53.480 --> 0:53:55.520 We've talked about this a bunch of times in different 0:53:55.719 --> 0:53:57.399 management things. We're talking about the other day. I can't 0:53:57.400 --> 0:54:00.440 remember what and what context, but ways in which something 0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:04.640 gets so bad you can't picture it getting better, and 0:54:04.680 --> 0:54:07.480 then you draft regulation like that like the wild hoor 0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:10.279 always point out the Wildhorse and Borrow Protection Act. Things 0:54:10.320 --> 0:54:13.920 get so bad you draft regulation because you can't picture 0:54:17.440 --> 0:54:20.440 the future ramifications, and then you wind up laying and 0:54:20.440 --> 0:54:22.640 you're like, damn man, we should have thought of that. 0:54:23.000 --> 0:54:26.520 Yeah. It's like it's like the sea otters up on 0:54:26.640 --> 0:54:28.719 Pow you know that have exploded. 0:54:28.760 --> 0:54:31.719 People like, well, they'll never be abundant, why even make 0:54:31.760 --> 0:54:33.080 a provision for abundance. 0:54:33.400 --> 0:54:35.359 Yeah, and I mean it's just hard to see over 0:54:35.360 --> 0:54:37.799 the horizon, right, I mean you see what's there and 0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:40.160 it's like it couldn't happen. It gives you hope though 0:54:40.200 --> 0:54:42.799 for salmon, Right, maybe maybe we can do this. 0:54:43.200 --> 0:54:46.000 But then, what's a good point. Man? With the Ballard 0:54:46.040 --> 0:54:47.120 locks up. 0:54:47.000 --> 0:54:50.279 You know, the the inlet or the outlet of Lake 0:54:50.440 --> 0:54:54.640 Washington in the in the eighties, all of a sudden, 0:54:54.719 --> 0:54:57.439 sea lions started showing up at the Ballard locks there 0:54:57.520 --> 0:55:01.600 in Herschel if you remember that, there's these particular California 0:55:01.640 --> 0:55:05.080 sea lions started praying on the steel Head run going 0:55:05.120 --> 0:55:06.200 into the Ballard locks. 0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:08.120 But they figured it out. 0:55:08.239 --> 0:55:12.200 They figured it out. Yeah, and you've got this growing population. 0:55:12.280 --> 0:55:15.839 They're expanding right to different places where they where they 0:55:15.840 --> 0:55:19.080 really haven't been in years and years because there's no management, 0:55:19.560 --> 0:55:24.920 and they they're decimating the winter steel Heead run in 0:55:25.280 --> 0:55:26.080 Lake Washington. 0:55:26.520 --> 0:55:28.839 Well, that triggered legislation. 0:55:28.760 --> 0:55:31.680 Then to finally amend the Marine Mental Protection Act, and 0:55:31.719 --> 0:55:34.879 they finally got that done in ninety four and it 0:55:34.960 --> 0:55:38.319 was Section one twenty that they put into the act. 0:55:38.400 --> 0:55:42.160 So this was management it's only on sea lions, and 0:55:42.200 --> 0:55:46.880 it's that they have to be individually identifiable and they 0:55:46.920 --> 0:55:50.160 have to be shown to have a significant negative impact 0:55:50.560 --> 0:55:53.920 on listed salmon populations. And if you can meet that 0:55:53.960 --> 0:55:57.719 criteria and you have a permit, you can remove that 0:55:57.840 --> 0:55:58.400 sea lion. 0:55:58.920 --> 0:56:01.560 So it was like, we know this one's a bad egg. 0:56:01.800 --> 0:56:03.960 We got to get rid of him, right, and how 0:56:04.000 --> 0:56:06.120 do you know, how do you know what that sea 0:56:06.120 --> 0:56:08.080 line is? Well, you got to catch him, and you 0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:10.040 got to put a brand on him, and you've got 0:56:10.040 --> 0:56:13.440 to have an observer there that sees him eating a fish. 0:56:13.800 --> 0:56:15.439 Then you got to get then you got to trap 0:56:15.520 --> 0:56:19.839 him again and euthanize him, you know. And so it's 0:56:19.960 --> 0:56:24.640 very tough. And that was the one was not successful. 0:56:24.719 --> 0:56:28.240 At the Ballard Locks. The still a population when extinct 0:56:28.560 --> 0:56:34.800 before really before the legislation was passed extinct, Yeah they're gone. 0:56:36.320 --> 0:56:41.400 So then Bonneville Dams could put yeah, yeah it's gone. 0:56:41.440 --> 0:56:45.200 And now there's actually a current problem another problem which 0:56:45.239 --> 0:56:48.279 is soak run in Lake Washington and it's going down 0:56:48.320 --> 0:56:52.680 that same that same round, and the only thing to 0:56:52.760 --> 0:56:55.280 manage there is this section one twenty. So they would 0:56:55.280 --> 0:56:58.600 have to to get you know, uh, they'd have to 0:56:58.640 --> 0:57:01.880 submit an application to to National Marine Fishery Service to 0:57:01.920 --> 0:57:03.720 get a permit through this one twenty. 0:57:04.280 --> 0:57:06.120 Yeah, and that's all to do with the ballard locks. 0:57:06.200 --> 0:57:07.280 That's best, not even the Columbia. 0:57:07.400 --> 0:57:08.680 That's not the Columbia. 0:57:08.280 --> 0:57:11.560 Because in the Columbia system, I don't know this is true. 0:57:11.719 --> 0:57:18.640 I was reading the sea lions take more fish than humans. Yeah, 0:57:18.680 --> 0:57:21.120 where are they doing that? Because I mean they're not 0:57:21.160 --> 0:57:23.720 getting past dams, right. 0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:27.600 So what happened in about two thousand, Uh, we started 0:57:27.640 --> 0:57:31.040 seeing sea lions at Bonnville Dam, at the tail race 0:57:31.040 --> 0:57:33.960 of Bonville Dam, and it was just a few how 0:57:34.000 --> 0:57:35.439 far up the river is that? One hundred and forty 0:57:35.440 --> 0:57:35.960 five miles? 0:57:36.960 --> 0:57:39.280 Wow, those suns of bitches swim that far the ocean. 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:42.640 Yeah, And I've got all kinds of stories. We've trapped, 0:57:42.680 --> 0:57:45.720 we've radio tracked them, and they will they'll go back 0:57:45.760 --> 0:57:49.640 to Astoria and back upstream two or three times in 0:57:49.720 --> 0:57:51.360 a year. It takes them just a couple of days. 0:57:52.000 --> 0:57:52.800 Are you serious? 0:57:53.440 --> 0:57:54.240 There they are? 0:57:54.480 --> 0:57:58.160 They're they're pretty remarkable animals. One hundred and forty miles 0:57:58.280 --> 0:58:00.840 up the river. Yeah, dude, anymal lick of salt? 0:58:01.200 --> 0:58:01.400 Yeah? 0:58:01.960 --> 0:58:06.280 No, no, Well then this problem. Once these animals. 0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:08.440 Saw, hey, this is this is the buffet, right, Because 0:58:08.440 --> 0:58:11.720 you've got this concentration of fish at the tail race. 0:58:11.720 --> 0:58:13.959 They're trying to find the sea ladder or the fish 0:58:14.040 --> 0:58:18.080 ladder entrances, and so they're congregating. You get a collection 0:58:18.200 --> 0:58:21.200 of fish, and the sea lions find that and it's 0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:25.160 like this is great. They come back every year, they 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:29.400 bring their buddies. They become habituated with it, and they 0:58:29.520 --> 0:58:33.520 start taking out a whole bunch of fish. So then 0:58:33.560 --> 0:58:35.160 the corp of engineers who runs. 0:58:35.000 --> 0:58:36.960 The dam, I gotta I gotta back up on that. 0:58:40.000 --> 0:58:41.240 This is an unanswerable question. 0:58:42.600 --> 0:58:45.680 A sea lion, like a sea lion, goes way to 0:58:45.720 --> 0:58:48.960 hel up the river, like a pioneer sea lion, because 0:58:49.000 --> 0:58:51.200 way up the river he's like, holy smokes, this is 0:58:51.280 --> 0:58:55.840 the promised land, right, and he goes back down at 0:58:55.880 --> 0:58:56.240 some point. 0:58:57.240 --> 0:58:57.680 No one will know. 0:58:57.840 --> 0:59:00.840 No one can answer this. How how is it conveyed? 0:59:02.360 --> 0:59:04.640 Like how does it convey to another sea lion? 0:59:07.680 --> 0:59:12.280 You know what I mean? Where Billy was. Honey bees 0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:14.160 have that deal. Honey bees have that deal. When they 0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:16.480 come back and they have they have like a thing 0:59:16.560 --> 0:59:18.480 they do. People call it a dance and they don't, 0:59:18.720 --> 0:59:20.880 you know, they don't perceive it as a dance. I'm sure, but. 0:59:20.960 --> 0:59:24.040 Honey bees come back and they have a movement pattern 0:59:24.440 --> 0:59:28.320 that says, I'm into it, heavy duty piling that way. 0:59:29.280 --> 0:59:32.520 Couldn't it just be like a generation Like it's like 0:59:32.720 --> 0:59:33.920 generational learning, like. 0:59:34.200 --> 0:59:37.120 Your kids offspring, Yeah, you bring offspring. 0:59:36.760 --> 0:59:40.480 Yeah, you bring your mate. Yeah, then you bring your offspring. 0:59:40.320 --> 0:59:42.040 Yeah, because your mate's like, what are they doing? 0:59:42.120 --> 0:59:44.320 I a film follow them just like it's so hard 0:59:44.360 --> 0:59:48.320 to like imagine by the mechanism by which you come 0:59:48.440 --> 0:59:50.520 back and then there's more. But yeah, like you just 0:59:50.560 --> 0:59:54.080 bring your offspring than some generations down the road. Everybody 0:59:54.160 --> 0:59:55.800 knows what's the honey pot. 0:59:56.000 --> 0:59:59.120 These these sea lions that go to Bonneville Dam are 0:59:59.280 --> 1:00:04.000 like the big sea lions that have been recorded, so 1:00:04.200 --> 1:00:08.120 a California sea lione. And it's only males. So the 1:00:08.280 --> 1:00:12.520 biology really is the female state. They stay down in 1:00:12.600 --> 1:00:15.400 the rookeries that are mainly in the in the Channel 1:00:15.440 --> 1:00:20.480 islands in California, so the off Santa Barbara. So that's 1:00:20.520 --> 1:00:23.000 where the females stay and they don't venture out of there. 1:00:23.080 --> 1:00:24.960 They stay very close to those islands. 1:00:25.200 --> 1:00:27.960 The males that are going one hundred and forty miles 1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:31.200 up the Columbia are breeding with females in the Channel Islands. 1:00:31.320 --> 1:00:31.720 Amazing. 1:00:31.840 --> 1:00:35.040 Huh yeah, wow, yeah, So what it is. 1:00:35.240 --> 1:00:38.320 It's like me telling I found this really good hunting spot. 1:00:38.600 --> 1:00:40.240 You want to come and check it out with me? 1:00:40.440 --> 1:00:42.560 You can't, but you can't talk though, but. 1:00:42.640 --> 1:00:43.640 Obviously they talk. 1:00:45.840 --> 1:00:48.440 So there's photos of them at the rookeries, like on 1:00:48.600 --> 1:00:53.000 sam Miguill Island where there's a male sea lion, male 1:00:53.080 --> 1:00:54.560 sea lion, and then all of a sudden there's this 1:00:55.400 --> 1:00:58.360 gigantic male sea lion. Oh the brand on him. He 1:00:58.480 --> 1:01:01.960 was a monoville. Really. Oh yeah, we have animals that 1:01:02.080 --> 1:01:06.040 we had captured, branded and then recaptured two months I 1:01:06.080 --> 1:01:07.440 think it was two months later, a month and a 1:01:07.480 --> 1:01:09.880 half later, and it gained four hundred pounds. 1:01:10.640 --> 1:01:12.160 Whoa, that's a lot of salmon. 1:01:12.360 --> 1:01:14.600 Yeah, it's a lot of fish, and they do have 1:01:14.840 --> 1:01:17.560 So this is the spring of the year. California sea 1:01:17.600 --> 1:01:22.200 lions arrive at Bonneville early April, and then by the 1:01:22.400 --> 1:01:24.560 end of May they leave and they go because then 1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:27.040 it's it's time to go to the breeding grounds. So 1:01:27.200 --> 1:01:29.280 they leave the system and the stellar sea lions that 1:01:29.320 --> 1:01:31.800 are there now, which is a newer story. They also 1:01:32.000 --> 1:01:35.960 leave the system by the end of May, and then 1:01:36.080 --> 1:01:38.919 the California sea lions show up back up the next 1:01:39.120 --> 1:01:39.920 the next April. 1:01:40.120 --> 1:01:42.480 Okay, what are they feeding on specifically when they get 1:01:42.480 --> 1:01:43.480 there that time of year. 1:01:43.800 --> 1:01:47.320 At Bonneville Spring Chinook? Yeah, spring Chinook is the big 1:01:47.680 --> 1:01:50.720 that's the big one, and a little bit of There's 1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:53.720 probably some steel head around as well, but it's primarily 1:01:54.720 --> 1:01:59.000 primarily spring Chinook. They also eat sturgeon that lower the 1:01:59.080 --> 1:02:03.919 Columbia River. The lower Columbia sturgeon population has really gone 1:02:04.000 --> 1:02:06.840 down and a lot of those would come up in 1:02:06.920 --> 1:02:10.240 a big congregating area would be the tail race of Bonneville, 1:02:10.520 --> 1:02:12.520 and they just got decimated by sea lions. 1:02:13.080 --> 1:02:17.160 So they don't No, this is like a two part question. 1:02:17.560 --> 1:02:21.120 Those sea lions don't have any impact on like non 1:02:21.240 --> 1:02:23.800 native game fish that are in there now, like walleye 1:02:23.880 --> 1:02:27.600 and small mouth And then what kind of impact are 1:02:27.640 --> 1:02:30.800 the walleye and small mouth bass having on salmon as well? 1:02:31.920 --> 1:02:32.360 Yeah, so. 1:02:34.960 --> 1:02:37.840 They're opportunistic feeders, right, So whatever is the most about it, 1:02:38.120 --> 1:02:40.440 that's what they're gonna eat. And a sea lion that's 1:02:40.560 --> 1:02:42.960 at the ocean is going to have a really diverse diet, 1:02:43.520 --> 1:02:45.600 and then the further up river they go, the more 1:02:46.120 --> 1:02:50.400 salmon centric their diet is. And when they get to Bonneville, 1:02:50.520 --> 1:02:56.280 it's they're eating depending on time, they're eating salmon, steelhead primarily, 1:02:56.440 --> 1:02:58.960 they're eating sturgeon now and then, and then they're eating 1:02:59.000 --> 1:03:02.000 some lamprey as well. And that's really it. We we 1:03:02.160 --> 1:03:04.840 see a few other things. You'll see sucker, maybe an 1:03:04.840 --> 1:03:06.480 occasional walleye or whatever. 1:03:06.640 --> 1:03:10.600 But do you that you guys view that like walleye 1:03:10.640 --> 1:03:13.280 and smallmouth as a big problem for salmon or is. 1:03:13.280 --> 1:03:17.920 It more like larger predators like sea lions, way and 1:03:18.040 --> 1:03:20.960 smallmouth or a problem for sure, and it's probably a 1:03:21.040 --> 1:03:23.920 bigger problem upstream of Bonneville. 1:03:23.520 --> 1:03:24.560 Cut in the reservoirs. 1:03:25.120 --> 1:03:25.360 Yeah. 1:03:26.560 --> 1:03:29.840 The thing with the sea lion issue that I hadn't 1:03:29.880 --> 1:03:32.439 really put the thought of before, But I mean, that's 1:03:32.440 --> 1:03:37.360 almost that's almost a dam problem, Like the dam is 1:03:37.440 --> 1:03:40.880 creating the fishery for the sea lions, yep, because it's 1:03:40.920 --> 1:03:43.000 creating a holding pen form where they can't get. 1:03:42.880 --> 1:03:46.360 Past right right. And and like you brought up Lewis 1:03:46.400 --> 1:03:50.240 and Clark when they went through Salilo they they talk 1:03:50.280 --> 1:03:52.640 about seeing foca. Well they'd never seen a sea lion, 1:03:52.720 --> 1:03:54.360 so they thought it was a seal. That was what 1:03:54.480 --> 1:03:57.160 they called seals. Oh, so they were okay, they ran 1:03:57.240 --> 1:03:58.919 into the way up the hell so they ran into 1:03:59.000 --> 1:04:02.440 them there and they were in October, right late September, 1:04:02.480 --> 1:04:04.720 early October at Soalilo. 1:04:04.920 --> 1:04:05.000 And. 1:04:06.680 --> 1:04:09.680 They shot one but they were but they weren't able 1:04:09.720 --> 1:04:12.760 to collect it. So they were trying to document it 1:04:12.840 --> 1:04:13.200 and stuff. 1:04:13.640 --> 1:04:16.040 But so they had historically used the resource. 1:04:16.840 --> 1:04:21.720 Yeah, so our tribal members are certain that they came 1:04:21.800 --> 1:04:23.600 up there in the fishery. They took care of the 1:04:23.960 --> 1:04:27.080 of the problem. The sea lions didn't stay long as 1:04:27.120 --> 1:04:28.520 a competitor there. 1:04:29.440 --> 1:04:31.200 Through the archaeological stuff. 1:04:30.920 --> 1:04:35.120 That they've done, they do find sea lion bones, but 1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:38.280 not in huge numbers. So they probably had hunts that 1:04:38.360 --> 1:04:42.240 would go down to get sea lions occasionally or trade 1:04:42.440 --> 1:04:45.280 or something. But there isn't It isn't like salmon bones 1:04:45.320 --> 1:04:47.760 that you just see everywhere. 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:48.480 So it wasn't a. 1:04:50.000 --> 1:04:53.080 Nowhere near as important as like salmon or something. 1:04:52.880 --> 1:04:56.640 Like the competition factor when you've got fifteen million salmon, 1:04:57.160 --> 1:05:00.360 like there's room for the sea lions to take exactly yeah, 1:05:00.400 --> 1:05:01.440 you know, yeah. 1:05:01.960 --> 1:05:03.960 You say the stellars are coming up there too, They're 1:05:04.000 --> 1:05:05.479 coming from the north. Yeah. 1:05:05.640 --> 1:05:08.760 So, so as the plot thickens and the story goes on, 1:05:09.040 --> 1:05:12.040 by the states of Oregon and Washington put in for 1:05:12.200 --> 1:05:15.520 this one to twenty permit to remove animals at Bonneville. 1:05:15.720 --> 1:05:17.520 About the animal rights people love that shit. 1:05:18.160 --> 1:05:21.320 It was it was a challenge, yeah, and they got it. 1:05:21.480 --> 1:05:24.560 They got to permit in eight and that was after 1:05:25.160 --> 1:05:28.520 documenting the presence of these animals for a long time, 1:05:28.600 --> 1:05:31.280 and they're how many animals are there, how many fish 1:05:31.320 --> 1:05:33.720 are they eating, how many days are they staying there, 1:05:33.800 --> 1:05:36.320 all of that stuff. All that information was necessary to 1:05:36.360 --> 1:05:38.960 get the permit. As soon as they got the permit, 1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:42.800 then Stellar seed so they got to permit to remove 1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:46.480 California Sea lions. And then two years later Stellar sea 1:05:46.560 --> 1:05:50.240 lions are in bigger numbers at Bonneville than California Sea lions. 1:05:51.240 --> 1:05:56.200 And what had happened. Stellars are gigantic, Stellar male and 1:05:56.320 --> 1:05:59.640 again it's males only, and they'll go they'll go a ton. 1:06:00.040 --> 1:06:02.160 Can you for people who don't know the difference, can 1:06:02.240 --> 1:06:05.200 you explain, like where the stellars are coming from and 1:06:05.440 --> 1:06:06.520 versus the California. 1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:06.720 Want. 1:06:06.880 --> 1:06:11.000 Yeah, So California sea lions range from British Columbia to 1:06:11.720 --> 1:06:16.400 southern part of Baja and the rookeries are primarily in 1:06:16.480 --> 1:06:19.000 Baja and along California. And then you got a couple 1:06:19.080 --> 1:06:22.240 of little places at California or along Oregon coast, but 1:06:22.360 --> 1:06:25.720 that's it. Stellar sea lions are more northern, so they 1:06:25.880 --> 1:06:29.000 will range down into California, but they'll go up into 1:06:29.080 --> 1:06:32.880 British Columbia, probably up into Alaska. And you have them, 1:06:34.200 --> 1:06:36.800 and you haven't broke into two stocks. This is the 1:06:36.880 --> 1:06:39.959 Eastern stock, which is like the one hundred and forty 1:06:40.000 --> 1:06:44.040 fourth latitude. Anything that's east of the one hundred and 1:06:44.040 --> 1:06:47.160 forty fourth degree latitude is the Eastern stock is stellar 1:06:47.240 --> 1:06:50.320 sea lions. Those are the ones that we're getting at Bonneville. 1:06:50.800 --> 1:06:52.680 To the west of that are the ones that are. 1:06:52.640 --> 1:06:52.960 Up in. 1:06:55.160 --> 1:06:58.720 Southeast Alaska off the Illusions and then further up. 1:06:58.920 --> 1:07:00.720 So those dudes aren't calling all the way down to 1:07:00.800 --> 1:07:01.320 the Columbia. 1:07:01.440 --> 1:07:03.720 No, they're not, and they're not in very good shape. 1:07:03.800 --> 1:07:08.640 They're they're listed at they're a listed species. Those Western 1:07:08.720 --> 1:07:14.600 stock the Eastern rock that the Eastern stock, I'll just 1:07:14.680 --> 1:07:18.600 think of that rock the Eastern stock was listed as 1:07:18.680 --> 1:07:23.000 threatened and then we're delisted by twenty thirteen, twenty twelve thirteen. 1:07:24.680 --> 1:07:27.919 So that was why they You couldn't even if even 1:07:27.920 --> 1:07:29.959 if they'd have been showing up at Bonneville, that would 1:07:29.960 --> 1:07:32.160 have been on the permit. We never states never would 1:07:32.160 --> 1:07:34.440 have got a permit to remove them because they were listed. 1:07:35.200 --> 1:07:37.840 Now they're now they're unlisted and they are part of 1:07:37.880 --> 1:07:39.120 the removal program. 1:07:39.400 --> 1:07:41.000 Now, oh, I want to get to that program. 1:07:41.040 --> 1:07:43.360 I got one that little technical question you mentioned earlier, 1:07:43.480 --> 1:07:47.439 catching them and branding them yep, he explaining that catching 1:07:47.480 --> 1:07:48.880 them how and branding them how? 1:07:49.160 --> 1:07:51.480 Yeah, So the way we catch them is a trap. 1:07:51.600 --> 1:07:55.800 That's a dock. It's like a sixteen by sixteen square 1:07:55.840 --> 1:07:59.120 foot dock with chain link fence around it, a big 1:07:59.280 --> 1:08:02.600 chain link fan, and then like a gate that's on 1:08:02.720 --> 1:08:05.960 a guillotine type thing and you can hold it up 1:08:06.000 --> 1:08:09.760 with an electronic device to trigger so we can remotely 1:08:11.000 --> 1:08:13.720 drop that gate. You wait for sea lions to get 1:08:13.800 --> 1:08:17.160 on that track. No, so they just haul out, so 1:08:17.240 --> 1:08:20.320 they want a place to rest, and so you're looking 1:08:20.400 --> 1:08:23.240 for places for them to haul out, and so that's 1:08:23.320 --> 1:08:26.720 the that's part of the trap. Is you gotta you 1:08:26.800 --> 1:08:29.880 gotta set these traps where they've been hauling out where 1:08:29.920 --> 1:08:32.639 you think you can get them to use, and then 1:08:32.680 --> 1:08:35.519 they get accustomed to it and they'll haul out and 1:08:35.600 --> 1:08:38.120 then you'll drop the drop the trap, and then we 1:08:38.200 --> 1:08:41.400 have a barge with these transfer cages. You go up 1:08:41.479 --> 1:08:44.479 against it, against that trap, open the doors, run them 1:08:44.479 --> 1:08:45.679 into that transfer cage. 1:08:45.760 --> 1:08:48.599 He probably, Yeah, how do they react when you walk 1:08:48.680 --> 1:08:49.040 up to him? 1:08:49.600 --> 1:08:49.640 So? 1:08:49.920 --> 1:08:55.160 Stellar sea lions can be pretty ornery. They don't, Yeah, 1:08:55.240 --> 1:08:57.840 they don't take to it real well. California sea lions 1:08:57.840 --> 1:09:01.439 are pretty pretty docile. They will, they'll move around. You 1:09:01.520 --> 1:09:03.960 could get in there with a piece of plywood in 1:09:04.040 --> 1:09:06.320 front and you could kind of hurt them, but nobody 1:09:06.360 --> 1:09:08.479 would do that with a Stellar sea lion right there. 1:09:09.560 --> 1:09:12.439 They're big. I mean, it's a two thousand pound animal 1:09:12.880 --> 1:09:17.280 that's pissed. In fact, we're taught now we put these arrays. 1:09:17.439 --> 1:09:19.760 So we take these sixteen by sixteen traps and we 1:09:19.840 --> 1:09:22.880 put three of them together. A couple of times we 1:09:23.000 --> 1:09:26.120 had single traps and you'd get three or four or 1:09:26.200 --> 1:09:28.519 five Stellar sea lions in there, and then they'd start 1:09:29.040 --> 1:09:34.360 doing the WWF and they'd roll the trap over so, yeah, 1:09:34.520 --> 1:09:35.320 they're they're big. 1:09:36.920 --> 1:09:39.679 And then you branded them with a cattle brand. Yeah 1:09:40.439 --> 1:09:41.080 what's the brand? 1:09:41.960 --> 1:09:44.720 Uh so a ladder up there at c and then 1:09:44.800 --> 1:09:49.360 a number different locations. There's branding programs at different places. 1:09:49.400 --> 1:09:51.920 And the states used the state of Oregon used to 1:09:51.960 --> 1:09:56.040 brand at Astoria. So there's there's animals from there, there's 1:09:56.479 --> 1:09:59.240 you know, all these different places where studies have been done. 1:09:59.320 --> 1:10:01.160 They have kind of a coding system. Where do you 1:10:01.200 --> 1:10:04.000 hit them on the hip, right on the back, across 1:10:04.120 --> 1:10:07.000 the back? How long do they live? 1:10:07.120 --> 1:10:08.960 Like are you seeing the same ones. 1:10:08.840 --> 1:10:11.920 Year after year after year after right? So adult these 1:10:11.960 --> 1:10:15.280 are these are mature adults that we see primarily. We 1:10:15.320 --> 1:10:18.680 do see occasionally a few smaller sea lions now, but 1:10:19.960 --> 1:10:23.320 they'll live. They can live, you know, like in captivity 1:10:23.360 --> 1:10:25.400 they might live to be in their twenties, but they'll 1:10:25.439 --> 1:10:28.759 probably in the wild maybe fifteen. 1:10:29.720 --> 1:10:34.040 And how many like at peak spring Chinook run, how 1:10:34.080 --> 1:10:35.920 many are in that dam or at the foot of 1:10:35.960 --> 1:10:36.280 that dam? 1:10:37.320 --> 1:10:38.200 How many sea lions? 1:10:38.439 --> 1:10:41.679 So from the observation program that the corp of Engineers does, 1:10:41.760 --> 1:10:48.160 the highest observed consumption was ten thousand fish that they 1:10:48.240 --> 1:10:50.679 saw that they documented being eaten. 1:10:50.880 --> 1:10:53.599 There in a tail race, and what does that mean 1:10:53.640 --> 1:10:54.559 over how much time. 1:10:54.840 --> 1:10:57.920 That's over the spring, So that's April through mid. 1:10:58.040 --> 1:11:00.240 Mid May to little they'll see ten thousand. 1:11:01.320 --> 1:11:03.280 And that's cherry pick and that's the top that's the 1:11:03.400 --> 1:11:07.120 top number. But that were represented almost five percent of 1:11:07.280 --> 1:11:09.720 the spring chinook run that was going over the dam. 1:11:10.479 --> 1:11:12.679 Okay, so you're losing five percent to sea lions. 1:11:12.880 --> 1:11:16.200 Yeah, well that's within this quarter of a mile that 1:11:16.320 --> 1:11:18.280 you can see from the face of the dam and 1:11:18.360 --> 1:11:19.440 do the observations. 1:11:20.000 --> 1:11:20.120 UH. 1:11:20.760 --> 1:11:23.719 National Marine Fishery Service has done studies in the Lower 1:11:23.840 --> 1:11:26.400 River where they put pit tags in them, so that's 1:11:26.760 --> 1:11:29.240 you know, that's the way we track salmon in the 1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:31.960 Columbia and it's basically the same things that you getting 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:36.800 your dog UH to track them. And there's a huge 1:11:36.880 --> 1:11:40.840 program in the Columbia where they these pit tags go 1:11:41.000 --> 1:11:45.559 over antennas. It activates the antenna and records the numbers, 1:11:45.600 --> 1:11:48.840 so they're all individually numbered, so we know any any 1:11:48.880 --> 1:11:50.760 salmon that we've put a tag and we know by 1:11:51.080 --> 1:11:54.920 by individual and at all of the dam ladders, like 1:11:55.000 --> 1:11:58.599 at Bonneville, we get have pit tag detectors, so when 1:11:58.680 --> 1:12:01.559 they crossed the dam, we we know it. So they 1:12:01.680 --> 1:12:05.200 captured these by gilmetting in the lower river down by Astoria. 1:12:06.760 --> 1:12:09.200 National Maune Fishery Service would capture these fish, put pit 1:12:09.280 --> 1:12:12.160 tags in them this is spring chinook, and then release 1:12:12.200 --> 1:12:15.160 those fish and also took genetic samples and with the 1:12:15.200 --> 1:12:19.080 genetic samples, we could figure out what their origin was, 1:12:19.160 --> 1:12:22.080 so you could subtract off any fish that were going 1:12:22.080 --> 1:12:26.200 to lower river tributaries. Also, harvest is highly regulated and 1:12:26.280 --> 1:12:29.240 we know what the harvest estimates are for each week, 1:12:29.720 --> 1:12:32.519 so subtract off harvest, and then you have the number 1:12:32.560 --> 1:12:35.120 of fish that you tag that should go over Bonneville. 1:12:35.880 --> 1:12:38.560 And in the biggest year, which was twenty fifteen, the 1:12:38.600 --> 1:12:42.280 biggest loss, fifty percent of the spring chinook run was 1:12:42.400 --> 1:12:49.560 lost between Astoria and Bonneville. And that's peer reviewed publication. 1:12:49.880 --> 1:12:53.800 Fifty percent attributed to sea lions. And so we had 1:12:53.880 --> 1:12:56.880 a two hundred thousand fish were eaten by sea lions. 1:12:57.600 --> 1:13:00.800 Two hundred thousand fish cross Bona. That's the largest springs 1:13:00.920 --> 1:13:03.280 nook run we've seen in decades. 1:13:05.400 --> 1:13:08.360 Going back to what Steve said, how many sea lions 1:13:09.000 --> 1:13:11.960 are consuming two hundred thousand salmon? 1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:21.240 Yeah, it's crazy. It's ballpark it's not that many, right, 1:13:21.720 --> 1:13:25.760 you know that are at Bonneville. It's like I think 1:13:26.160 --> 1:13:28.640 a couple of years we've maybe seen two hundred a 1:13:28.680 --> 1:13:31.800 little over two hundred individuals, so it isn't huge. And 1:13:32.240 --> 1:13:36.040 the animals that have been from this group of branded animals, 1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:39.360 there's a big haul outside at Astoria called the East 1:13:39.400 --> 1:13:44.280 Morning Basin and will cite animals there, and then the 1:13:44.360 --> 1:13:46.679 ones that you'll see at Bonneville or at Wi Land 1:13:46.720 --> 1:13:50.640 at Falls another place where they congregate similar situation with 1:13:50.720 --> 1:13:54.000 sea lions. It's only about seven percent of that branded 1:13:54.080 --> 1:13:58.000 population go that far up, but that seven come back 1:13:58.600 --> 1:13:59.920 every year just like you're talking. 1:14:00.080 --> 1:14:02.840 But they habituate. There's faithful as the salmon man. 1:14:02.960 --> 1:14:06.120 Yeah, well, once they've locked into it, they come back 1:14:06.840 --> 1:14:09.559 and we'll see them multiple years, three, four or five years. 1:14:10.560 --> 1:14:14.960 But so the tribal rights, because it seems like sometimes 1:14:15.439 --> 1:14:19.000 they can trump other laws and rules and rags. But 1:14:19.200 --> 1:14:21.519 I'm guessing that doesn't work in this case, to trump 1:14:21.640 --> 1:14:25.080 the Marine Protect Mammal Protection Act. 1:14:25.360 --> 1:14:27.800 Yeah, because of the Act. And that's what I've been 1:14:27.880 --> 1:14:29.080 talking about, is all. 1:14:29.160 --> 1:14:31.080 You guys don't have harvest rights on sea lions. 1:14:31.400 --> 1:14:35.960 No, because historically they didn't come back in those those numbers, 1:14:36.080 --> 1:14:39.040 and they're not coming above Well, we have a few 1:14:39.160 --> 1:14:44.040 that come above Bonneville Dam that where our gilnet fisheries 1:14:44.080 --> 1:14:48.120 are only above Bonneville Dam in the Zone six fishing area, 1:14:48.760 --> 1:14:53.760 and so we don't we don't harvest them. Like the 1:14:53.840 --> 1:14:56.160 big numbers are the Lower River and how you said 1:14:56.280 --> 1:14:59.000 the sea lions are a down problem, Well it goes 1:14:59.040 --> 1:15:02.799 beyond just the problem when they're using that entire stretch 1:15:02.840 --> 1:15:06.000 of the Lower River from Astoria. One year at Astoria, 1:15:06.520 --> 1:15:08.760 what he was talking about that east mooring basin, I 1:15:08.800 --> 1:15:12.840 think there were was it ten thousand, eight thousand, It 1:15:13.040 --> 1:15:13.240 was a. 1:15:13.320 --> 1:15:16.360 Right around four thousand, Yeah, at the East Morning Basin. 1:15:17.000 --> 1:15:20.320 In the East Morning Basin, it's not very big, you know, 1:15:20.720 --> 1:15:23.280 it went from the early two thousands. There would be 1:15:23.320 --> 1:15:25.559 a couple of hundred a year and they do counts 1:15:25.600 --> 1:15:27.920 every day on these and they'd haul out on the docks. 1:15:28.160 --> 1:15:31.280 The East Morning Basin is not used anymore. Used to 1:15:31.320 --> 1:15:34.320 be commercial vessels there as well as recreational, and it 1:15:35.000 --> 1:15:37.160 was taken over by sea lions basically. 1:15:37.880 --> 1:15:44.120 Well, but I think what Yanni's asking is like picture that, Like, 1:15:44.200 --> 1:15:49.519 for instance, I have more familiarity with regulatory structure in Alaska. 1:15:49.600 --> 1:15:56.560 But there are cases where you have NOAH administered species. 1:15:56.720 --> 1:15:59.559 You have like US and Fish Wildlife Service administered species, 1:15:59.600 --> 1:16:04.960 whatever you have like tribal harvest rights where like you 1:16:05.040 --> 1:16:09.920 know they can harvest, they can harvest walrus, they can 1:16:10.000 --> 1:16:11.680 harvest whale species. 1:16:12.120 --> 1:16:12.240 Right. 1:16:13.560 --> 1:16:15.759 The things that would be off often is everybody else. 1:16:16.960 --> 1:16:19.959 If if you're if the inner tribal group on the Columbia, 1:16:20.720 --> 1:16:24.959 like if you wanted to, you wouldn't have the authority 1:16:25.040 --> 1:16:27.799 of just saying we're going to do sea lion control 1:16:29.120 --> 1:16:34.040 on our own because we're not beholden to we're not 1:16:34.160 --> 1:16:37.800 beholden to EESA, or we're not behold in the marine 1:16:37.800 --> 1:16:40.160 mammal Protection actly, you don't have that ability that you 1:16:40.200 --> 1:16:41.960 don't have that legal ability just to take it into 1:16:42.000 --> 1:16:42.559 your own hands. 1:16:43.280 --> 1:16:46.200 Yeah, we actually have. You know, Yakma has written their 1:16:46.240 --> 1:16:50.040 own resolution right, which is a tribal law that the 1:16:50.160 --> 1:16:53.160 taking of sea lions to protect life and property. And 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:55.959 it was funny I actually ended up in that situation 1:16:56.479 --> 1:16:59.360 where I fish by the city of the Dalls. There 1:16:59.479 --> 1:17:02.479 was an animal. There was a boat basin right where 1:17:02.520 --> 1:17:05.360 people have houseboats and whatnot. Well, there was one that 1:17:05.520 --> 1:17:07.880 was actually living on a dock in there and those 1:17:07.920 --> 1:17:10.000 people were feeding it. It was there for a couple 1:17:10.040 --> 1:17:13.280 of years, right, it wouldn't leave, and it was I'd 1:17:13.320 --> 1:17:15.360 be running my nets and it would be swimming back 1:17:15.400 --> 1:17:17.519 and forth right next to me. And you know, they 1:17:17.560 --> 1:17:20.160 had passed that resolution and my supervisor at the time 1:17:20.280 --> 1:17:22.400 was like, you could shoot it, and I was like, yeah, 1:17:22.479 --> 1:17:26.080 that would be real good optics yacumanation fish biologists, and 1:17:26.400 --> 1:17:28.000 I don't want to end up in court for the 1:17:28.120 --> 1:17:30.160 next ten years. I didn't want to be the test 1:17:30.240 --> 1:17:34.200 case on it. But in hindsight, maybe I should have. Yeah, 1:17:34.280 --> 1:17:37.559 I could have. But those types of things are happening. 1:17:38.120 --> 1:17:41.320 But like I said, the animals aren't up where we gillnet. 1:17:41.760 --> 1:17:44.040 They're down below, so it would be hard for us 1:17:44.160 --> 1:17:46.280 to and we still have those laws in place. But 1:17:46.920 --> 1:17:49.800 you know, and a lot of it is just being 1:17:49.840 --> 1:17:52.560 good co managers. Right, we don't want to you know, 1:17:52.680 --> 1:17:53.080 we want to. 1:17:53.120 --> 1:17:55.840 Work together with you don't want to, yeah, on that 1:17:56.000 --> 1:17:56.400 kind of thing. 1:17:56.520 --> 1:17:58.880 Yeah, because there's so many other issues, like we talked 1:17:58.920 --> 1:18:01.880 about death by a thou and cuts. Right, this predation 1:18:02.080 --> 1:18:05.120 the sea lion is a huge impact, but there's tons 1:18:05.160 --> 1:18:08.640 of other things that we work together on. Yeah, so 1:18:08.920 --> 1:18:09.320 just pushing it. 1:18:09.520 --> 1:18:12.000 If you make too much smoke around the sea lion 1:18:12.439 --> 1:18:15.280 issue and you create like a bad optic situation, it 1:18:15.320 --> 1:18:17.120 could impact you addressing. 1:18:16.800 --> 1:18:19.720 All of the other issues that are making the problem. 1:18:19.720 --> 1:18:22.519 In funding as well. Just because you get the permit 1:18:22.920 --> 1:18:26.200 doesn't mean that you're getting any funding that comes from 1:18:26.280 --> 1:18:32.320 appropriations and things like that. Is so this the program 1:18:32.439 --> 1:18:35.640 that we have, like how Doug's explaining the trapping and 1:18:35.760 --> 1:18:39.560 it has to be chemically euthanized by a licensed veterinarian 1:18:40.240 --> 1:18:44.839 and things like that, So it's really inefficient, like because 1:18:45.479 --> 1:18:48.640 there's that's in the act right that it has to 1:18:48.720 --> 1:18:52.840 be chemically euthanized by a licensed veterinarian. Like it would 1:18:52.840 --> 1:18:54.400 be so much easier if you had it and you 1:18:54.439 --> 1:18:58.200 could just shoot it. You know, that's humane as well, 1:18:58.520 --> 1:19:02.320 like rather than dragging them through all of that, yeah, 1:19:02.560 --> 1:19:05.840 like torture before leading them to their death. And you know, 1:19:06.320 --> 1:19:13.519 it's really inefficient the laws that are put upon us 1:19:13.640 --> 1:19:16.160 to be able to do this work, Like we could 1:19:16.200 --> 1:19:19.160 be doing a lot more like darting. You could dart 1:19:19.280 --> 1:19:21.280 to euthanize, but then you have to be able to 1:19:21.360 --> 1:19:24.960 recover the animal as well. So it's like you have 1:19:25.120 --> 1:19:27.880 no choice put to trap. And you know, like you said, 1:19:27.920 --> 1:19:30.840 you see the same animals and as I was mentioning too, 1:19:31.000 --> 1:19:33.639 like it's not just a dawn problem anymore. That's why 1:19:33.640 --> 1:19:36.840 I brought up how many come to the mouth astoria. 1:19:36.960 --> 1:19:41.559 There are thousands there, but they're learning traits, like when 1:19:41.600 --> 1:19:44.639 we have smelt runs returning, when we have sizeable smelt 1:19:44.680 --> 1:19:47.320 runs coming up, and you know, historically they were in 1:19:47.400 --> 1:19:50.040 the lower tributaries and a lot come back to the 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:53.559 Cowlitz River. Well, the sea lions follow the smelt up 1:19:53.640 --> 1:19:56.679 to the Cowlitz River, and they'll be hundreds, like five 1:19:56.800 --> 1:19:59.919 hundred plus sea lions at the mouth of the Cowlitz 1:20:00.040 --> 1:20:03.760 beating on the smell, which are also threatened as well. 1:20:04.360 --> 1:20:08.040 And there is a zilt narrow down on something that's small. 1:20:08.040 --> 1:20:10.880 I don't know that, and so they follow up the smell. 1:20:11.080 --> 1:20:14.320 They hang around there. When the smelt run trickles off, 1:20:14.720 --> 1:20:17.160 then they can move upstream, like to the Lewis River 1:20:17.720 --> 1:20:22.240 and eat you know, juvenile celmonids leaving the system. And 1:20:22.320 --> 1:20:24.800 then by then it's time to head up to Bonneville 1:20:24.920 --> 1:20:27.800 because you have spring schnook coming, so they're exploiting that 1:20:27.880 --> 1:20:32.400 whole stretch of the Lower River and the removal program 1:20:32.640 --> 1:20:37.040 starts at the I two five bridge up to McNary Dam, 1:20:37.200 --> 1:20:40.680 so it's really site specific. We don't have the ability 1:20:41.160 --> 1:20:45.880 or the flexibility to address to these changing needs. For one, 1:20:46.000 --> 1:20:49.160 we don't have funding. It's largely underfunded. There's so much 1:20:49.240 --> 1:20:52.280 red tape and how you do things it's inefficient, and 1:20:52.840 --> 1:20:56.000 we don't have the ability to react and take action 1:20:56.400 --> 1:21:00.280 where it's necessary. Like Doug said about that that still 1:21:00.280 --> 1:21:03.120 had population and ballard locks going extinct. You know, the 1:21:03.160 --> 1:21:05.800 same thing could happen with their sake, same thing could 1:21:05.840 --> 1:21:10.120 happen with ours, and there's no hierarchy. There's no act 1:21:10.439 --> 1:21:14.679 amongst the Act about how the MMPA plays into the ESA. 1:21:15.360 --> 1:21:19.000 And another whole can of worms is the Migratory Bird 1:21:19.040 --> 1:21:23.240 Treaty Act. Right, you have huge avian impacts of goals 1:21:23.400 --> 1:21:26.040 and things like that that are eating like up to 1:21:26.439 --> 1:21:29.360 seventy percent of juveniles still had leaving the system. 1:21:29.920 --> 1:21:34.960 Are goals yeah, yeah, goals, cormorants yeah. 1:21:35.040 --> 1:21:37.960 And then now we have pelicans too that are feeding 1:21:38.040 --> 1:21:41.560 on adult sake. Like I mentioned that year that we 1:21:41.680 --> 1:21:45.479 had the eight hundred thousand returning past Bonneville, the majority 1:21:45.520 --> 1:21:48.840 going to like Okanagant. Half of them died because that 1:21:49.000 --> 1:21:53.040 year there was also a heat dome, warm lethal temperatures. 1:21:53.120 --> 1:21:59.120 There were swimming zombies and pelicans just eating them like crazy. 1:21:59.240 --> 1:22:03.720 We have pelicans that are resident in the Columbia there, 1:22:04.160 --> 1:22:08.360 it's like a couple thousand breeding pairs. Right, It's it's 1:22:08.439 --> 1:22:12.519 a ton. They don't leave the system anymore, and you. 1:22:12.560 --> 1:22:14.880 Can't just go out and start doing control measures. I know, 1:22:15.040 --> 1:22:17.639 I guess cormorants are delisted at least some times. 1:22:18.080 --> 1:22:18.919 They're all protected. 1:22:18.960 --> 1:22:20.720 They're all protected under the microprograt. 1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:24.760 But there's places where there are form rant like there's 1:22:24.760 --> 1:22:26.000 squished your nasts and shit. 1:22:26.120 --> 1:22:29.400 You know, yeah, it takes so much to get that 1:22:29.680 --> 1:22:32.280 to that, Like you wouldn't even think the seagulls you 1:22:32.360 --> 1:22:36.280 see everywhere at dumps and at places eating French fries, right, 1:22:36.800 --> 1:22:41.320 how protected they are. There's rocks like by Island in 1:22:41.439 --> 1:22:45.040 the mid Columbia, right, it's called Miller Island, and it's 1:22:45.120 --> 1:22:48.000 just the outcropping of rocks where there's this goal colony 1:22:48.479 --> 1:22:51.120 that I think it was like they were attributed to 1:22:51.640 --> 1:22:56.320 eating Mid Columbia Steelhead thirty one percent of the juveniles 1:22:56.360 --> 1:22:59.439 out migrating from that one colony. And we are still 1:22:59.520 --> 1:23:02.640 working in that process, Like you have to do so 1:23:02.880 --> 1:23:07.439 much effort of non lethal hazing where we're using like 1:23:07.600 --> 1:23:10.959 boom cannons and the next year we used the falcon 1:23:11.240 --> 1:23:13.799 and then finally we were able to do some lethal 1:23:13.880 --> 1:23:17.200 take and able to oil like some eggs and things 1:23:17.320 --> 1:23:19.800 like that. But when you do those things, you're just 1:23:19.880 --> 1:23:24.000 playing whackable. You're just moving, yeah, somewhere else. So there's 1:23:24.320 --> 1:23:28.400 really are no ability to manage even on that. 1:23:28.880 --> 1:23:31.720 And so yeah, that river would flow with blood. Man 1:23:31.800 --> 1:23:33.439 if you just needed to get rid of everything there 1:23:33.560 --> 1:23:35.840 was eating, but everything that was eating sane. 1:23:36.000 --> 1:23:38.280 Well's the thing is fish always kind of get the 1:23:38.400 --> 1:23:41.960 short straw when like you can't be shooting birds that 1:23:42.080 --> 1:23:44.880 people like to watch or sea lions that people liked, 1:23:45.000 --> 1:23:45.200 you know. 1:23:45.720 --> 1:23:48.760 Yeah, so that's the the biggest thing. There's no act 1:23:48.840 --> 1:23:52.000 amongst the acts. There's no hierarchy. How do we we 1:23:52.120 --> 1:23:55.240 have these species, these fish that are on the brink 1:23:55.280 --> 1:24:00.519 of extinction and these sea lions that are exceeding carrying capacity. 1:24:00.640 --> 1:24:03.600 That's why they're moving to find other food sources and 1:24:04.320 --> 1:24:08.160 like looking at the future with sea level rise and 1:24:08.640 --> 1:24:11.160 change and everything. That was what Doug's been working on 1:24:11.360 --> 1:24:15.360 with Noah National Marine Fishery Service as well, looking at 1:24:15.439 --> 1:24:19.719 impacts to the juvenile out migration. That's what he says. 1:24:19.800 --> 1:24:23.040 They eat a lot more French fries than we ever imagined. 1:24:24.040 --> 1:24:31.200 Hm. So are you guys involved in the my I 1:24:31.240 --> 1:24:34.599 have an older brother, he's in his early eighties. 1:24:35.479 --> 1:24:38.880 He's been turning in. He fishes the Columbia every day 1:24:38.920 --> 1:24:42.479 in the summer. He's been turning in. You know, he's 1:24:42.479 --> 1:24:44.760 been doing a lot of boy hunting on northern on 1:24:44.880 --> 1:24:48.479 the Pike mentals. Right, what's the story with that? Are 1:24:48.479 --> 1:24:49.240 you guys involved in that? 1:24:50.520 --> 1:24:55.439 We're We're not peripherally, but I mean Washington State of 1:24:55.600 --> 1:24:58.200 Washington is the one that runs that program. 1:24:58.439 --> 1:25:00.799 Is that Is that like productive that just like Tidley 1:25:00.840 --> 1:25:05.120 winks like, is that you think it's just pissing in 1:25:05.160 --> 1:25:05.640 the wind or. 1:25:06.760 --> 1:25:09.200 Yeah, because when you have a bounty like that, you 1:25:09.280 --> 1:25:11.760 have people exploiting it, right, And I think there was 1:25:11.800 --> 1:25:14.280 somebody that was growing some you. 1:25:14.320 --> 1:25:17.880 Know, and some dudes you're clearing one hundred thousand bucks 1:25:17.920 --> 1:25:21.559 a year. He's not he was telling me he recently 1:25:21.600 --> 1:25:22.960 had a check for seventy. 1:25:22.640 --> 1:25:23.520 Some dollars. 1:25:26.400 --> 1:25:27.240 Covered his gas. 1:25:28.560 --> 1:25:31.880 It's just primarily a small mouth fisherman, but he likes 1:25:31.920 --> 1:25:34.520 to make a little side. Yeah, Northern Pikes. 1:25:35.840 --> 1:25:38.680 Yeah, and with that being an actual native species, just 1:25:38.800 --> 1:25:41.040 the you know, the change in the reservoir system. But 1:25:41.600 --> 1:25:44.040 I think we're getting a lot bigger issue on the 1:25:44.200 --> 1:25:47.839 predation from the warm water fish, the bass and walleye. 1:25:48.160 --> 1:25:51.360 Oh, like there's more that's doing more damage in northern 1:25:51.400 --> 1:25:52.040 Pike mentals. 1:25:52.320 --> 1:25:52.759 Probably. 1:25:52.800 --> 1:25:55.320 And then I got buddies, like, God bless them. I 1:25:55.400 --> 1:25:57.920 got buddies that like to fish. Those like to fish. 1:25:57.960 --> 1:25:58.680 Small mom out there. 1:26:00.000 --> 1:26:01.960 They're all up in arms about people pointing the finger 1:26:01.960 --> 1:26:02.599 at small mouth. 1:26:03.280 --> 1:26:06.720 Yeah, that's because it's like the crumb fight, dude. The 1:26:06.760 --> 1:26:08.800 crumb fight is a complex crumb fight. 1:26:09.160 --> 1:26:11.200 Why would you want to get rid of this beautiful game? 1:26:12.120 --> 1:26:12.839 Yeah, exactly. 1:26:12.960 --> 1:26:16.160 And then you have these gigantic walleye that they're catching 1:26:16.439 --> 1:26:19.280 up there around you Matilla area, right, And so it's 1:26:19.320 --> 1:26:23.000 attracting people to come there to catch these big walleye. Well, 1:26:23.120 --> 1:26:25.200 a big walleye eats a lot of smolts. 1:26:25.320 --> 1:26:27.960 Yeah, there's probably some group like walleye fishermen in the 1:26:28.000 --> 1:26:31.760 Columbia know it's like fighting to like preserve the walleye or. 1:26:31.760 --> 1:26:34.679 Whatever, you know, up and down it is and that's 1:26:34.720 --> 1:26:37.679 a big issue. Like and then you have the fishing guides, 1:26:37.760 --> 1:26:40.320 right they say, well, that's our that's our off season 1:26:40.400 --> 1:26:43.360 from salmon. Is like restore the salmon. Then you'd have 1:26:43.439 --> 1:26:45.960 a lot more salmon openings. Like they show those big 1:26:46.400 --> 1:26:49.120 walleye and they cut them open and there's like tons 1:26:49.240 --> 1:26:53.360 of smolts in them, and multiply that this guy. 1:26:53.439 --> 1:27:00.800 Your big walleye got, you can have them get. You 1:27:00.880 --> 1:27:03.240 know what shows that mind frame is like totally different 1:27:03.360 --> 1:27:06.400 water system, but you're familiar here. We have the Yellowstone Park. 1:27:06.479 --> 1:27:08.040 You know, Yellowstone Lake had a. 1:27:09.680 --> 1:27:12.960 At some point in time they put lake trout in there, 1:27:14.360 --> 1:27:16.120 which real detrimental to the cutthroats. 1:27:16.360 --> 1:27:16.600 And so. 1:27:18.240 --> 1:27:19.800 At one point they like made it that I think 1:27:19.840 --> 1:27:23.479 it was mandatory retention. You know, if you caught it, 1:27:23.560 --> 1:27:25.760 you had to kill it. I had a buddy he 1:27:25.840 --> 1:27:28.720 lived here in town years ago. He would love that 1:27:29.040 --> 1:27:31.200 go up there and fish, and I remember I was 1:27:31.280 --> 1:27:33.320 asking about it and he's like, yeah, I like to 1:27:33.400 --> 1:27:35.720 hit it, but I'm always conscious to not damage the 1:27:35.800 --> 1:27:40.920 resource of the lake trout because like people just get 1:27:41.000 --> 1:27:43.600 that's just how people's minds work, you know, And you 1:27:43.760 --> 1:27:45.840 go out and you catch some big old small mouth 1:27:45.880 --> 1:27:46.519 and then it's just. 1:27:48.240 --> 1:27:50.960 You know, there's like a certain human adaptability. I guess 1:27:51.080 --> 1:27:53.640 man like people, maybe you. 1:27:53.680 --> 1:27:58.760 Get where you get where you get fatalistic or pessimistic 1:27:58.880 --> 1:28:01.799 or something, and you get where, we're not gonna the salmon. 1:28:01.920 --> 1:28:05.920 Things not going to get fixed. And I love the 1:28:06.000 --> 1:28:11.080 fish and they're not going to fix that. So I'm 1:28:11.240 --> 1:28:14.439 here for small mouth. I'm here for walleye and that'll 1:28:14.479 --> 1:28:16.200 have to That'll do. That'll do for me. 1:28:16.840 --> 1:28:18.879 I much try to see the one hundred pounds chinooks 1:28:20.360 --> 1:28:20.720 I'm saying. 1:28:20.720 --> 1:28:22.360 I'm just trying to get into the like you know 1:28:22.360 --> 1:28:25.040 what I mean, Like that's probably without thinking about it, 1:28:25.120 --> 1:28:26.120 that's where people ride. 1:28:26.200 --> 1:28:29.840 Plus you're like you've created a recreational fishery that never 1:28:30.000 --> 1:28:32.600 existed before, so people jump on it. 1:28:32.720 --> 1:28:36.280 You know, you do we know how and stop me 1:28:36.280 --> 1:28:38.120 if I'm going to jump ahead too much. But I 1:28:38.240 --> 1:28:39.040 gotta get this question. 1:28:39.080 --> 1:28:40.640 You can ask, why can't we just get rid of 1:28:40.680 --> 1:28:41.560 all the damnsus? 1:28:42.200 --> 1:28:45.760 No, it is damn related, But do we know how 1:28:46.920 --> 1:28:50.360 now with all of our knowledge to do hydro electric 1:28:50.439 --> 1:28:53.840 power and salmon simultaneously. 1:28:53.880 --> 1:28:54.920 Oh, it is there. 1:28:55.120 --> 1:28:57.840 It's technologically yeah, has someone figured out how to do it, 1:28:57.920 --> 1:29:00.439 but we just don't have the funds to do it. Like, 1:29:00.600 --> 1:29:02.439 is there a way to make these things not be 1:29:02.640 --> 1:29:05.599 part of the central you know system of the river 1:29:05.800 --> 1:29:08.920 where like the nature could still do its thing, but 1:29:09.160 --> 1:29:11.679 offset from that you'd have hydroelectric power. 1:29:13.080 --> 1:29:13.760 We keep it. 1:29:14.200 --> 1:29:19.040 It's ever changing goalposts, right, there's no limit or there's 1:29:19.120 --> 1:29:24.080 no oversight of carrying capacity. It's always more like we 1:29:24.200 --> 1:29:27.600 could be we could have there's room for salmon and 1:29:28.479 --> 1:29:31.800 the Northwest, you know, in the environment with this amount 1:29:31.800 --> 1:29:35.280 of electricity and that spill, right, having spill keeping the 1:29:35.400 --> 1:29:38.800 river or river and not just you know, the way 1:29:38.840 --> 1:29:42.200 they want to operate it for the grid stability is 1:29:42.320 --> 1:29:44.439 to turn it off and on like a like a 1:29:44.520 --> 1:29:47.800 battery like a light switch, and which is unnatural. You know, 1:29:48.000 --> 1:29:50.719 like you have you know, your peak loading and things 1:29:50.840 --> 1:29:54.200 like that for to support industry and and things like that, 1:29:54.439 --> 1:29:58.000 so that that's what's really damaging. You don't have the 1:29:58.120 --> 1:30:02.400 spill to flush out the the juvenile salmon because that's. 1:30:02.280 --> 1:30:03.360 Just when spring runoff. 1:30:04.080 --> 1:30:06.600 Ok and then even in the even in the summertime, 1:30:06.760 --> 1:30:10.120 right like late spring when when fish are moving out, 1:30:10.360 --> 1:30:13.280 like the journey that used to take two weeks now 1:30:13.400 --> 1:30:16.920 takes two months and they've expended so many of their 1:30:17.000 --> 1:30:21.120 resources before they even get to the ocean that survival decreases. 1:30:21.600 --> 1:30:23.920 And the same thing when adults are returning. You have 1:30:24.520 --> 1:30:28.479 you know, the temperature the Columbia is warming earlier and 1:30:28.600 --> 1:30:33.559 earlier every year, so that you know you have it's 1:30:33.680 --> 1:30:37.600 reaching sixty eight degrees like days earlier. We have a 1:30:37.760 --> 1:30:41.080 chart that I could share with you over time of 1:30:41.200 --> 1:30:43.920 when you're reaching these lethal temperatures. And that's why we 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:47.000 have dying sokki now. Before we used to be seeing 1:30:47.080 --> 1:30:49.880 those getting up to the lethal temperatures in the fall, 1:30:50.200 --> 1:30:52.400 but then you'd get fall rains that would cool it 1:30:52.520 --> 1:30:56.160 back down. But you're not seeing that anymore. So it's 1:30:56.320 --> 1:30:59.880 just a lot. That's why the litigation has been there 1:30:59.920 --> 1:31:02.760 for so many years is because it's hydro operations is 1:31:03.200 --> 1:31:05.560 the huge factor in survival. 1:31:05.960 --> 1:31:09.519 But is there a like however, you measure the amount 1:31:09.520 --> 1:31:12.960 of electricity Okay, like take any particular dam and you 1:31:13.080 --> 1:31:16.160 measure how much what are they measured as what is 1:31:16.200 --> 1:31:19.200 a dam measured as it puts off blank megawatts? 1:31:19.240 --> 1:31:19.519 Okay? 1:31:21.600 --> 1:31:24.200 To Tiani's point, be like, if you take a dam 1:31:24.479 --> 1:31:26.880 and it produces one hundred megawatts, I don't know what 1:31:26.920 --> 1:31:28.160 tell one hundred megawatts? 1:31:28.640 --> 1:31:29.120 Would you know? 1:31:29.200 --> 1:31:31.840 Would an engineer now look and go like, oh man, 1:31:32.280 --> 1:31:37.120 nowadays I could give you one hundred megawatts without all that, 1:31:38.240 --> 1:31:40.720 or I could give you one hundred megawatts with a 1:31:40.840 --> 1:31:45.320 much better fish passage system were we to start from scratch, you, 1:31:45.479 --> 1:31:47.720 I mean, like, is there ways of which there's an 1:31:47.880 --> 1:31:52.320 engineering solution? And I always saying like that that were 1:31:52.360 --> 1:31:54.960 they're constantly asking for more and more and more megawatts. 1:31:55.000 --> 1:31:57.599 But if there weren't, just theoretically, if they weren't asking 1:31:57.680 --> 1:32:01.120 for more megawatts, could you get it all in a 1:32:01.160 --> 1:32:03.240 way that wasn't so damaging to the fish? 1:32:03.520 --> 1:32:04.240 Now that we have. 1:32:06.400 --> 1:32:09.880 All these technological advancements that have occurred since nineteen fifty. 1:32:10.320 --> 1:32:13.840 You know, yeah, that's tough to do so and all 1:32:13.880 --> 1:32:16.640 of them are different, right. Wells Dam, which is one 1:32:16.680 --> 1:32:20.120 of the the highest passable dam on the Columbia, has 1:32:20.200 --> 1:32:24.200 what they call a hydro combined so the spillway it 1:32:24.320 --> 1:32:27.200 sits and then underneath it is the pin stocks for 1:32:27.280 --> 1:32:32.719 the powerhouse, Well, they're the attraction flow for the pins 1:32:32.920 --> 1:32:34.720 is all in one place and you can kind of 1:32:34.840 --> 1:32:38.040 direct your fish up into the spillway and get them 1:32:38.120 --> 1:32:42.080 over other places. You've got the spillway a quarter of 1:32:42.120 --> 1:32:44.880 a mile away from where the powerhouse is. Some of 1:32:44.960 --> 1:32:47.800 them are built at and Eld, you know, I mean 1:32:47.840 --> 1:32:49.880 they're every one of them is a different place because 1:32:49.880 --> 1:32:53.040 they had to be to put them in those locations. 1:32:53.600 --> 1:32:55.679 And so I think it would be like the complete 1:32:56.640 --> 1:33:00.360 tear down and rebuild. So the infrastructure cost would be huge. 1:33:00.439 --> 1:33:04.679 And unless unless Nerve starts making turbines, there isn't really 1:33:04.960 --> 1:33:06.080 a way to do it, you know. 1:33:06.240 --> 1:33:09.080 Yeah, So there's not like retro fitting and things. It's 1:33:09.160 --> 1:33:10.600 just they build them and that's what they are. 1:33:10.840 --> 1:33:13.360 They're better and better, they're updating. 1:33:14.439 --> 1:33:18.760 We just visited. I toured John Day Dam recently, which 1:33:18.880 --> 1:33:21.920 is I think the lere third largest power producer. They 1:33:21.960 --> 1:33:25.479 have Grand Cooley, Bonnaville and then John Day. And the 1:33:25.600 --> 1:33:29.760 size of the turbans are huge. Like you go in there, 1:33:29.960 --> 1:33:32.080 like the dam doesn't look that big when you're driving, 1:33:32.120 --> 1:33:34.280 but the width of it those turbans in there, I 1:33:34.320 --> 1:33:38.000 think they're like sixty or ninety foot diameter, Like that's 1:33:38.080 --> 1:33:41.280 how big, and they're like thirty feet tall. Like there's 1:33:41.400 --> 1:33:44.559 one that's needed repairs. They had it lifted, you could 1:33:44.600 --> 1:33:47.280 see it. They've been doing repairs on it for ten years. 1:33:48.080 --> 1:33:51.559 And they were saying that that one's the next one 1:33:51.680 --> 1:33:55.000 schedule to be updated with this newer turbine that they 1:33:55.080 --> 1:33:57.840 have at Bonneville, and that's supposed to be you know, 1:33:58.240 --> 1:33:59.360 more fish safe and. 1:34:00.240 --> 1:34:03.080 Fish cause these are literally killed. They're they're literally hitting 1:34:03.160 --> 1:34:03.920 fish and killing them. 1:34:04.800 --> 1:34:08.960 Yeah, what but that but just going on the scale 1:34:09.560 --> 1:34:13.120 is like I had to physically see it to understand, 1:34:13.200 --> 1:34:16.360 Like my god, these things are massive in the amount 1:34:16.479 --> 1:34:20.160 of money. Like there sed that project schedules to start 1:34:20.240 --> 1:34:24.439 in I think he said twenty thirty cost several billion 1:34:24.560 --> 1:34:27.679 dollars and take twenty years to complete. 1:34:28.560 --> 1:34:31.599 So that's fixing existing stuff. 1:34:31.800 --> 1:34:32.280 M hmm. 1:34:34.160 --> 1:34:37.439 There's like has to be These power companies are like 1:34:37.640 --> 1:34:41.439 have to be under some pressure to at least on 1:34:41.520 --> 1:34:43.960 the face of things, show that they're doing things to 1:34:44.360 --> 1:34:48.200 help these runs. Like what kind of partners are they. 1:34:48.240 --> 1:34:48.680 To work with? 1:34:48.920 --> 1:34:51.080 Like is it just like do you feel like it's 1:34:51.200 --> 1:34:55.040 just lip service or is there like like a bona 1:34:55.120 --> 1:34:58.160 fide effort to help out or like what's the what's 1:34:58.240 --> 1:35:01.000 the relationship with these power companies. 1:35:01.600 --> 1:35:04.840 Well, the hardest thing is because it's not a power company, 1:35:04.920 --> 1:35:08.040 it's the federal government. Right, so they could more or 1:35:08.120 --> 1:35:11.200 less do what they want on the timescale that they 1:35:11.280 --> 1:35:14.720 want and how things get done with you know, ten 1:35:14.800 --> 1:35:19.760 years of studies and appropriations five years out and it's 1:35:19.800 --> 1:35:23.400 not even sufficient for today's dollar, let alone in five years. 1:35:23.640 --> 1:35:27.599 So the dams are managed by the federal government. 1:35:28.240 --> 1:35:32.800 Yeah, they're operating corp of engineers and the business end, 1:35:33.760 --> 1:35:37.040 the marketing end of the power is Boneville Power Administration, 1:35:37.840 --> 1:35:43.000 And that's one hundred percent of business focused on money, 1:35:43.280 --> 1:35:47.639 not looking at mitigation. They have the Fish and Wildlife program, 1:35:48.200 --> 1:35:54.280 Like there's been years of like unanticipated revenues, Like they've 1:35:54.360 --> 1:35:59.759 made like millions and millions more than they anticipated. Okay, 1:36:00.160 --> 1:36:03.360 so the Fish and Wildlife program is X amount. They 1:36:03.439 --> 1:36:06.880 have all this unanticipated revenue, there's a cap on how 1:36:06.960 --> 1:36:09.880 much goes to the fish and Wildlife program. The rest 1:36:09.920 --> 1:36:11.679 of it they go back to pay down their debt 1:36:11.760 --> 1:36:14.920 with the Feds, and they also give breaks. They give 1:36:15.040 --> 1:36:19.400 money back to their industrial users, like what what company. 1:36:20.000 --> 1:36:21.840 Do they just kind of view you guys as like 1:36:21.920 --> 1:36:23.400 a fly buzzing in their ear. 1:36:23.920 --> 1:36:25.080 Yeah, sadly. 1:36:25.479 --> 1:36:30.080 Yeah. The solutions are aren't new. I mean basically it's 1:36:30.160 --> 1:36:32.439 running a river more like a natural river. The more 1:36:32.520 --> 1:36:34.880 you could do that, the better it is for fish. 1:36:35.640 --> 1:36:36.760 But I mean it's like. 1:36:36.840 --> 1:36:39.640 Even with the dams. Yeah, they're like even with the 1:36:39.760 --> 1:36:42.280 dams in place. I guess that's kind of like I 1:36:42.320 --> 1:36:46.599 guess I'll jump to what would be sort of version 1:36:46.640 --> 1:36:51.639 of my last My last question would be years ago, 1:36:51.680 --> 1:36:57.760 we had Mike Simpson on and and Idaho representative House Representatives. 1:36:58.160 --> 1:37:00.640 He came on and he was at the time, I 1:37:00.640 --> 1:37:02.360 don't think it went anywhere. He was pitching a plan 1:37:02.479 --> 1:37:07.240 on a damn removal plan which had so many facets 1:37:07.280 --> 1:37:09.960 around agricultural production, shipping and all that, and it. 1:37:10.080 --> 1:37:10.720 Came with this. 1:37:11.800 --> 1:37:14.600 It came with this stipulation that were they to do 1:37:14.800 --> 1:37:20.080 this this removal project, all the litigants, all the environmental 1:37:20.160 --> 1:37:24.800 groups imagine tribes would agree to sort of this this 1:37:25.120 --> 1:37:28.519 like cease. They would they would stop lawsuits for some 1:37:28.600 --> 1:37:32.280 period of time on on fisheries that dam is still standing, right, 1:37:34.640 --> 1:37:38.080 So like a sort of like broad ultimate question would 1:37:38.080 --> 1:37:43.479 be what are the odds that dams come out? Like 1:37:43.800 --> 1:37:47.200 if you had the crystal ball a century into the future, 1:37:48.400 --> 1:37:51.599 do we have fewer dams then? And then the offshoot 1:37:51.600 --> 1:37:54.000 of the question is if is if no, the dams 1:37:54.000 --> 1:37:56.400 will never It's not really the major dams will never 1:37:56.520 --> 1:38:02.120 go away. Then it's it's what could be done differently? 1:38:02.320 --> 1:38:04.000 And you're kind of getting at I guess like you 1:38:04.120 --> 1:38:06.680 could the dams could still be there, but there are 1:38:06.840 --> 1:38:09.880 other things that are plausible that could help. 1:38:11.280 --> 1:38:13.320 Yeah, you got to run it as close to a 1:38:13.400 --> 1:38:15.920 natural river as you can. It's priorities, right, if you 1:38:16.439 --> 1:38:20.800 prioritize fish passage higher than you do now, it's prioritized 1:38:20.840 --> 1:38:24.000 for dam or for power production, right, and so it's 1:38:24.520 --> 1:38:28.720 maximize or optimized power production. And then whatever's left it's 1:38:28.800 --> 1:38:32.080 the crumbs. Whatever's left. We could do what we can 1:38:32.240 --> 1:38:35.040 around the edges for fish, but if you raise that 1:38:35.280 --> 1:38:38.080 and made the fish more important, you know, you can 1:38:38.160 --> 1:38:40.280 look at papers from the fifties, they knew some of 1:38:40.320 --> 1:38:45.360 the solutions. These aren't new, but it's it's always been 1:38:45.520 --> 1:38:48.880 that the money is from the dams and the power production, 1:38:49.040 --> 1:38:52.360 and that's that's run the whole system. And it's all 1:38:52.920 --> 1:38:54.840 it all operates and revolves around that. 1:38:55.960 --> 1:38:58.880 Did they when they were conceptualizing those dams? 1:38:59.320 --> 1:39:01.800 I've has a lot of pep this question. I've ever 1:39:01.880 --> 1:39:05.000 got a great answer to it. But like when they 1:39:05.040 --> 1:39:09.040 were pitching the dams, the engineers, right, everybody's getting together 1:39:09.120 --> 1:39:12.160 on these dams. Did was did they realize? Do you 1:39:12.240 --> 1:39:20.000 think they knew? Do you think their discussions included conversations 1:39:20.280 --> 1:39:22.559 about how catastrophic this would be for fish? 1:39:22.680 --> 1:39:22.720 Like? 1:39:22.840 --> 1:39:24.240 Did they they knew? 1:39:24.760 --> 1:39:30.839 There was actually the the memos were discovered by opb 1:39:31.160 --> 1:39:35.320 Oregan Public broadcasting. Recently, you did a Tony Chick did 1:39:35.360 --> 1:39:40.519 a series Salmon War's podcast. But yeah, he had the 1:39:40.640 --> 1:39:44.200 memos that talked about the kind of the cost benefit 1:39:44.280 --> 1:39:46.639 of analysis. Like I said, the salmon became a problem 1:39:46.800 --> 1:39:49.360 because then they'd have to put in fish passage, and 1:39:49.840 --> 1:39:52.040 they also labeled it as an Indian problem. We get 1:39:52.120 --> 1:39:54.720 rid of the salmon, we don't have to deal with 1:39:54.800 --> 1:39:58.720 the Indian problem on on the Mansteam River anymore. So 1:39:58.880 --> 1:40:01.559 that was in all of it was a choice, even 1:40:01.600 --> 1:40:06.360 on the upper it because they looked at building Bonneville 1:40:06.439 --> 1:40:10.840 without passage with or without and thankfully with and but 1:40:11.080 --> 1:40:13.400 you know, you look up in Hill's Canyon, Hills Canyon 1:40:13.479 --> 1:40:16.400 down there's no passage, but there could be. They could 1:40:16.439 --> 1:40:21.520 bore through the the mountain too for their their turbines, 1:40:21.760 --> 1:40:23.720 you know, to make the turbines more efficient, but they 1:40:23.760 --> 1:40:27.360 couldn't provide passage. So all of those things you visit them, 1:40:27.439 --> 1:40:30.479 it's it's it was a choice and all based on 1:40:30.680 --> 1:40:34.479 cost and also looking at long term maintenance. And he 1:40:34.600 --> 1:40:39.360 talked about like will these be here forever? No, because 1:40:39.880 --> 1:40:44.000 there's there's lack of maintenance. Like Doug said, like okay, 1:40:44.240 --> 1:40:47.639 every all the all the the money and the emphasis 1:40:47.720 --> 1:40:51.479 is put on power production and things get fixed really fast. 1:40:51.600 --> 1:40:54.080 But when there's an issue with the passage thing or 1:40:54.800 --> 1:40:58.320 especially monitoring, that's the first thing to get sliced off 1:40:58.360 --> 1:41:02.519 of the budget. And and you were talking about, you know, litigation. 1:41:02.720 --> 1:41:05.840 We had that stay in litigation which was going good. 1:41:05.920 --> 1:41:08.759 We were just getting started, but in June of twenty 1:41:08.840 --> 1:41:13.880 five it was canceled terminated by the current administration. So 1:41:14.040 --> 1:41:16.880 we lost all of that headway that we had made 1:41:16.920 --> 1:41:19.640 over those those couple of years with the Biden administration. 1:41:19.880 --> 1:41:22.680 So we're back to we still have the six sovereigns 1:41:22.760 --> 1:41:27.880 working together pushing to advance those efforts and looking for appropriations. 1:41:28.000 --> 1:41:31.519 But we don't have the commitments from the agencies of 1:41:31.640 --> 1:41:35.960 the federal government, the Bureau Reclamation, Army Corps, and everything 1:41:36.120 --> 1:41:40.000 like that to address these problems. And you know, when 1:41:40.040 --> 1:41:42.840 we started our advocacy, we were talking about the billion 1:41:42.880 --> 1:41:47.479 dollar backlog, the billion dollar backlog in needs in the 1:41:47.560 --> 1:41:50.759 Columbia Basin. Well, once we started writing it down on paper, 1:41:51.200 --> 1:41:53.759 it actually came out to be like two billion dollars, 1:41:54.160 --> 1:41:58.560 Like a billion dollars in passage at the dams, and 1:41:58.640 --> 1:42:04.439 then like another billion and hatchery maintenance because they built 1:42:04.439 --> 1:42:08.160 these hatcheries, they're so outdated and never reach full production. 1:42:08.320 --> 1:42:13.040 They have failing intakes, crumbling raceways, they're not efficient. And 1:42:13.439 --> 1:42:16.599 so the things that we advocate for isn't just for us, 1:42:16.720 --> 1:42:20.400 it's actually, can you appropriate the money for you to 1:42:20.640 --> 1:42:23.559 fund yourself to do the things that you should be doing. 1:42:24.479 --> 1:42:28.120 And then even you know, looking at habitat restoration and 1:42:28.960 --> 1:42:33.759 you know, the roads and culverts and irrigation intakes and everything. 1:42:33.920 --> 1:42:38.240 We're just like out there looking for everybody to do 1:42:38.439 --> 1:42:41.120 the right thing of what we all should be doing 1:42:41.520 --> 1:42:44.920 for our environment. And you know, it's like a shared 1:42:44.960 --> 1:42:50.560 responsibility from all of us, and like the accumination. We 1:42:50.680 --> 1:42:54.200 were involved with a damn removal project that didn't get 1:42:54.200 --> 1:42:57.320 as much media attention as like Elwa dam but it's 1:42:57.360 --> 1:42:59.720 actually it was actually a bigger project, and it took 1:43:00.680 --> 1:43:03.960 like nineteen years for that damn removal and the only 1:43:04.000 --> 1:43:05.840 reason that got done it was because it was with 1:43:05.960 --> 1:43:09.200 the private company. It was Pacific Core, And then it 1:43:09.439 --> 1:43:12.960 came down to the license for them to update the license, 1:43:13.520 --> 1:43:16.240 they had to either provide passage or take it down, 1:43:16.920 --> 1:43:20.080 and then they drug that out for five years. The tribes, 1:43:20.200 --> 1:43:25.040 Yakima and Cryptic actually pitched in money together to fund 1:43:25.160 --> 1:43:29.679 the study, the cost benefit analysis that showed that removal 1:43:29.720 --> 1:43:33.080 would be cheaper, and then Pacific Corps finally breached it. 1:43:33.520 --> 1:43:35.400 But it's like we have to hold their hand and 1:43:35.520 --> 1:43:38.360 walk them through everything and keep pushing all the time. 1:43:38.520 --> 1:43:42.680 It's just more like pushing and paying to hold them 1:43:42.720 --> 1:43:45.799 accountable of things that they should be doing and funding 1:43:45.880 --> 1:43:49.960 things appropriately. We could have these acts and permits and everything, 1:43:50.040 --> 1:43:54.400 but unless we have the resources to enact them, it's meaningless. 1:43:55.320 --> 1:43:56.760 So I'm going to go out on a limb on 1:43:56.840 --> 1:43:57.160 this one. 1:43:57.200 --> 1:43:59.439 But I mean the way the Trump administration's playing out 1:43:59.520 --> 1:44:02.960 with their life conservation record, I can't imagine there have 1:44:03.120 --> 1:44:04.519 any help on salmon issues. 1:44:05.760 --> 1:44:07.680 It's got to be low priority to them. 1:44:08.360 --> 1:44:11.559 It was actually the Trump administration that signed the permit 1:44:11.840 --> 1:44:18.040 for the the removal h really yeah. But the thing 1:44:18.120 --> 1:44:22.840 that we get from congressionals and actually our our supervisor, 1:44:22.840 --> 1:44:27.519 our executive director actually just testified in Congress last month 1:44:27.680 --> 1:44:35.000 on this pinniped issue. And we're a Republican witness because and. 1:44:35.200 --> 1:44:35.840 We have our. 1:44:37.479 --> 1:44:39.880 I was saying that being like an interesting trade off 1:44:40.040 --> 1:44:42.080 is what the administration is going to give you is 1:44:42.160 --> 1:44:46.320 probably greater latitude because like like of a like of 1:44:46.439 --> 1:44:49.519 a general suspicion of some of these acts that were passed, 1:44:49.680 --> 1:44:54.400 greater latitude for some things like removal of species, but 1:44:54.560 --> 1:44:58.880 sort of just like generally less sympathy about river flows 1:44:58.960 --> 1:44:59.240 and things. 1:44:59.240 --> 1:45:02.040 I would imagine, Yeah, that's what we're after is that 1:45:02.280 --> 1:45:05.000 you know, there's no management provision in a Marie Mental 1:45:05.040 --> 1:45:08.480 Protection Act. We'd like an amendment to add management provisions 1:45:08.560 --> 1:45:11.479 and so a way that you could analyze the problem. 1:45:11.600 --> 1:45:14.680 And if it's river otters somewhere, if it's California sea 1:45:14.720 --> 1:45:17.800 lions or sellars, or whatever the problem is, there would 1:45:17.800 --> 1:45:20.240 be a process you could go through to get some 1:45:20.680 --> 1:45:24.120 management in place and be able to do that. The 1:45:24.400 --> 1:45:27.599 I guess I get quickly back to the sea lion thing. 1:45:28.200 --> 1:45:31.640 What we talked about earlier was the one to twenty removals, 1:45:31.680 --> 1:45:34.400 and then there was an amendment that was passed in 1:45:34.520 --> 1:45:36.840 twenty eighteen. It was signed by Trump and his first 1:45:36.880 --> 1:45:41.639 administration that did recognize the co management of the tribes, 1:45:41.720 --> 1:45:45.320 so tribes, our four treaty tribes were able to be 1:45:45.600 --> 1:45:49.360 party two permits along with the states, and then our 1:45:49.439 --> 1:45:52.800 tribes could delegate to critfic to do that and we've 1:45:52.840 --> 1:45:56.519 been doing that since. But it's you know, red tape 1:45:56.600 --> 1:45:58.840 is a killer. Because that was passed in December of 1:45:58.920 --> 1:46:03.120 twenty eighteen, we immediately applied for a permit and our 1:46:03.200 --> 1:46:07.160 joint permit was finally issued in August of twenty so 1:46:07.760 --> 1:46:10.720 two years, two years, and then we start implementing it. 1:46:10.880 --> 1:46:14.320 And then that provision and it's one twenty f it 1:46:15.160 --> 1:46:16.679 allows area management. 1:46:16.840 --> 1:46:19.160 So that was the above the two five bridge. 1:46:19.840 --> 1:46:23.280 If an animal's up there, he's individually identifiable and he's 1:46:23.320 --> 1:46:25.880 having a significant negative impact. So if you can collect 1:46:25.920 --> 1:46:29.440 that animal, you can euthanize it, but it's very restrictive. 1:46:29.479 --> 1:46:32.640 You can't go out and specifically you can't shoot them. 1:46:32.720 --> 1:46:35.880 You have to trap chemically euthanize. So there's still some 1:46:36.479 --> 1:46:39.280 burden to it, but it isn't the level that we 1:46:39.400 --> 1:46:42.240 used to do when it was individual sea lion management. 1:46:42.320 --> 1:46:44.519 So it's a little better, but it only applies to 1:46:44.640 --> 1:46:45.200 the Columbia. 1:46:45.640 --> 1:46:48.120 So yeah, on the question about the different administrations, I 1:46:48.160 --> 1:46:49.559 don't want to put you in a rough spot. Maybe 1:46:49.560 --> 1:46:53.240 maybe my assumption is wrong, but like I smember years ago, 1:46:54.960 --> 1:46:57.400 I can't remember, it was the first time Trump was running. 1:46:57.800 --> 1:46:59.479 He was kind of he was in California. He was 1:46:59.520 --> 1:47:02.599 like RIDI and the delta smelt, you know, like, why 1:47:02.640 --> 1:47:06.760 would you ever sacrifice anything for some little fish? And 1:47:06.800 --> 1:47:08.880 I think there's just in that way, like sort of 1:47:08.920 --> 1:47:12.800 a dismissiveness about some fisheries issues. But have you guys 1:47:12.880 --> 1:47:16.040 found that, like, have you gotten more done in during 1:47:16.080 --> 1:47:18.920 the Trump administrations than you do during the Bien administrations? 1:47:19.000 --> 1:47:19.960 Or is it not that simple? 1:47:21.000 --> 1:47:23.080 No, it's not that simple. A lot has to do 1:47:23.280 --> 1:47:28.080 with funding that's coming into the federal agencies. The federal 1:47:28.160 --> 1:47:31.800 agencies now that we work with have been gutted, right, 1:47:32.040 --> 1:47:35.320 So there's less less people to do the same amount 1:47:35.360 --> 1:47:38.760 of work and with less money, which which is. 1:47:38.800 --> 1:47:41.680 A problem in so you felt the impact some of 1:47:41.920 --> 1:47:45.840 the cuts of land management agencies, Yeah, and that and 1:47:46.080 --> 1:47:49.040 like but like also a red tape reduction, so less 1:47:49.120 --> 1:47:50.280 money and less red tape. 1:47:51.880 --> 1:47:54.559 No, it's still there, it's just the processes just take 1:47:54.640 --> 1:47:57.559 longer now, you know, or you don't have somebody there 1:47:57.680 --> 1:48:00.200 to you don't have that human there to process us. 1:48:00.240 --> 1:48:02.760 This permit which we ran into last year on a 1:48:02.800 --> 1:48:06.200 tagging project, like we couldn't access that area because there 1:48:06.320 --> 1:48:09.960 was no the person was Doze that did wrote that 1:48:10.080 --> 1:48:13.240 permit for us, and just things like that. I think 1:48:13.880 --> 1:48:17.559 the around this predation thing is like the one crumb 1:48:17.840 --> 1:48:22.840 that we could actually get done during this time. And 1:48:23.040 --> 1:48:25.600 because like I said, we were a Republican witness and 1:48:26.000 --> 1:48:29.719 resistance to change and we're mindful of you know, egg 1:48:29.880 --> 1:48:32.880 and transportation and things like that, but we're looking for 1:48:33.360 --> 1:48:37.120 responsible ways to do things. There's beyond the status quo. 1:48:37.479 --> 1:48:40.320 And you know, there's a lot of interest in just 1:48:40.600 --> 1:48:44.559 protecting the dams. So they're quick to point at sea lions. 1:48:45.439 --> 1:48:48.000 They are a huge impact, but that's not the only impact. 1:48:48.120 --> 1:48:50.960 But if that's the only thing we could get right now, 1:48:51.600 --> 1:48:54.519 then we need to maximize our effort and jump on 1:48:54.640 --> 1:48:58.040 that and get these things done now while we have 1:48:58.160 --> 1:48:59.600 the chance while the focus is. 1:48:59.640 --> 1:49:00.680 On on that. 1:49:01.320 --> 1:49:09.240 That's a conservation gamble that just in the conservation movement 1:49:09.280 --> 1:49:13.559 at large. That is a gamble that causes for people 1:49:13.600 --> 1:49:17.479 that like things simple. That's a gamble people have to 1:49:17.520 --> 1:49:19.840 live in that makes people uncomfortable, especially people that want 1:49:19.880 --> 1:49:21.280 things to be very cut and dried, good. 1:49:21.160 --> 1:49:26.040 Guy, bad guy, really simple. But that an organization yourselves, 1:49:26.240 --> 1:49:29.800 or any number of conservation organizations with a new administration 1:49:29.960 --> 1:49:33.439 comes in and you're like, here's all the things we're 1:49:33.520 --> 1:49:37.920 not going to get, but there's this, you know, and 1:49:38.000 --> 1:49:40.280 we can be friendly and try to get this one thing, 1:49:41.880 --> 1:49:44.120 or we can dig in our heels and spend four 1:49:44.200 --> 1:49:45.800 years with nothing, you know. 1:49:45.840 --> 1:49:47.560 I mean, and a lot of people want you just 1:49:47.640 --> 1:49:50.479 to dig in your heels and get nothing rather than 1:49:50.560 --> 1:49:53.719 look like you're cooperating, you know, And then it flips. 1:49:53.960 --> 1:49:56.080 Then four years later it flips the other way around. 1:49:56.160 --> 1:50:00.880 You're like, you know, killing sea lines is out, yeah, right, 1:50:01.000 --> 1:50:03.120 but we might get some sympathy on this other issue. 1:50:03.200 --> 1:50:06.600 You know, it was really hard. We're kind of a 1:50:06.720 --> 1:50:09.800 perfect storm we ran into. Was right. 1:50:10.040 --> 1:50:10.479 We had that. 1:50:12.400 --> 1:50:15.479 We've had this accords agreement since two thousand and eight. 1:50:15.560 --> 1:50:18.360 It's the Bonneville Fish Accords, where it was a ten 1:50:18.439 --> 1:50:23.400 year agreement twenty and eight to twenty eighteen where there 1:50:23.520 --> 1:50:26.880 was a set program We said we won't sue you, 1:50:27.400 --> 1:50:30.320 and you fund these programs. And the benefit in that 1:50:30.640 --> 1:50:34.360 is we weren't having to justify and fight every year 1:50:34.640 --> 1:50:38.720 for funding to do this or that. We're really micromanaged. 1:50:39.240 --> 1:50:42.919 Even now today, we're still really micromanaged as Phish managers, 1:50:43.000 --> 1:50:46.479 the expert micromanaged by the funding agencies of course, because 1:50:46.840 --> 1:50:49.920 they control the purse strings, and that's still a frustration 1:50:50.080 --> 1:50:53.200 for us. But the accords gave us the ability to 1:50:53.360 --> 1:50:57.280 do non eesa work and work on things like sturgeon 1:50:57.439 --> 1:51:00.400 and lamprey and things like that kind of ban what 1:51:00.520 --> 1:51:02.719 we were doing, and we made a lot of progress 1:51:02.800 --> 1:51:06.719 and since then we never signed another long term agreement. 1:51:06.840 --> 1:51:12.960 We went through two three year extensions in eighteen and 1:51:13.360 --> 1:51:18.000 so we were just starting to negotiate that a new 1:51:18.160 --> 1:51:21.679 long term agreement. Bonneville rolled the dice on the election 1:51:22.840 --> 1:51:26.479 and they won. We didn't get another agreement, and they 1:51:26.560 --> 1:51:30.479 gave us another extension. But in that and I mentioned 1:51:30.640 --> 1:51:36.320 the litigation on the hydro operations Arounda, the EESA litigation, 1:51:36.760 --> 1:51:40.000 And so we were in that stay. We were living good, 1:51:40.439 --> 1:51:44.960 looking forward to a new another you know, favorable administration, 1:51:45.400 --> 1:51:49.320 and it flipped the opposite way. We lost that agreement. 1:51:49.439 --> 1:51:53.880 It was terminated. And then this Bonneville piece, they have 1:51:54.040 --> 1:51:59.120 no the accords ended, they have no written, legal binding 1:51:59.200 --> 1:52:03.760 commitment to accept this really hard, long process of you know, 1:52:04.000 --> 1:52:07.800 the Power Council, the Northwest Power Act, their commitments to 1:52:07.880 --> 1:52:11.360 the fish and wildlife program, their responsibilities that it's really tough. 1:52:11.479 --> 1:52:16.559 The so the accords ending, and then there was money 1:52:16.880 --> 1:52:19.400 left over from that that was tied up in their 1:52:19.680 --> 1:52:26.240 years of red tape to build facilities or do certain projects. Well, 1:52:26.920 --> 1:52:31.360 when the tribes signed to take the litigation back into court, 1:52:31.560 --> 1:52:36.320 the state was ended, Okay, let's reinitiate this litigation. Bonneville 1:52:36.439 --> 1:52:40.559 viewed that as a negative action towards them, and they said, 1:52:41.240 --> 1:52:43.519 we don't owe you that money anymore. You violated the 1:52:44.400 --> 1:52:48.200 Of course, it was fifty million dollars to the tribes. 1:52:48.360 --> 1:52:51.600 That there's still our tribes are having to go to 1:52:51.920 --> 1:52:56.439 DC to lobby to get that money back too. Like, 1:52:56.560 --> 1:52:59.960 we have projects we've been working on for fifteen years 1:53:00.160 --> 1:53:00.280 and that. 1:53:00.280 --> 1:53:05.680 Would have been fifty million bucks towards salmon. Yeah, not 1:53:05.880 --> 1:53:07.320 like for people to walk home and put in their 1:53:07.360 --> 1:53:07.960 bank accounts. 1:53:09.400 --> 1:53:12.400 No, it was all earmarked for projects that we weren't 1:53:12.479 --> 1:53:15.920 able to get done on the ground because of their 1:53:16.000 --> 1:53:16.599 red tape. 1:53:16.920 --> 1:53:17.120 Yeah. 1:53:18.439 --> 1:53:25.000 So I got a question about the Klamath, Like the 1:53:25.120 --> 1:53:28.639 dams aren't coming down on the Columbia right at least 1:53:28.720 --> 1:53:33.040 not anytime soon. But you know, a year or two 1:53:33.080 --> 1:53:35.759 ago when they took out the four dams on the Klamate, 1:53:35.880 --> 1:53:41.360 it's like now seen as a success for salmon. Is Like, 1:53:41.439 --> 1:53:43.360 I know you guys are focused on the Columbia, but 1:53:43.640 --> 1:53:47.880 is there like opportunities like the Klamath on other rivers 1:53:48.000 --> 1:53:49.920 besides the Columbia. 1:53:50.479 --> 1:53:53.280 Yeah, that one I mentioned on the on the White Salmon, 1:53:53.360 --> 1:53:55.240 the one that we did with Pacific Corp. Which is 1:53:55.280 --> 1:53:58.280 funny that was the same company that owned the Klamath 1:53:58.400 --> 1:54:01.840 dams that removed them, and it was a lot because 1:54:01.920 --> 1:54:06.200 of you know, reservoir succession and things were so bad 1:54:06.479 --> 1:54:09.759 in that system, they had no choice, which we're seeing 1:54:09.800 --> 1:54:12.559 in the Columbia every year by a degradation of water 1:54:12.680 --> 1:54:16.600 quality set them in accumulation and things like that. We're 1:54:16.640 --> 1:54:19.760 not keeping up in the Columbia either. And like, like 1:54:19.880 --> 1:54:23.639 I mentioned that the dam on the Little White Salmon 1:54:23.760 --> 1:54:26.040 that was removed, but it took nineteen years. 1:54:26.000 --> 1:54:26.479 To do that. 1:54:29.040 --> 1:54:30.360 On the Klamath pretty quick. 1:54:31.439 --> 1:54:34.520 No, they were in the fight for decades as well. 1:54:34.800 --> 1:54:38.120 You just don't hear about it until until like things 1:54:38.200 --> 1:54:43.920 are happening. Yeah, and then always, like I mentioned, the 1:54:44.000 --> 1:54:46.320 only reason we got that dam removed is because of 1:54:46.360 --> 1:54:50.360 the licensing process that required fish passage. It was the 1:54:50.400 --> 1:54:53.080 same thing on the Klamath. They could have done fixes 1:54:53.800 --> 1:54:56.960 to maintain the dams, but it was cheaper for them 1:54:57.000 --> 1:54:59.240 to take them out. Like how you were saying, it's 1:54:59.360 --> 1:55:03.800 like things get costed out and it's never it's not like, yay, 1:55:03.920 --> 1:55:07.040 we won, they did the right thing. It's like they 1:55:07.120 --> 1:55:10.640 did what was cheapest for their pocket. Yeah, that that's 1:55:10.720 --> 1:55:11.680 always the trade off. 1:55:11.840 --> 1:55:14.120 So I think, how quickly do you see how quickly 1:55:14.200 --> 1:55:15.960 when when a dam comes down like that, like in 1:55:16.040 --> 1:55:18.880 the clam or whatever, how quickly do you see results in. 1:55:18.960 --> 1:55:20.480 Terms of fish passage. 1:55:20.680 --> 1:55:23.480 The next year? It was it was like that in 1:55:24.240 --> 1:55:27.160 the White Salmon when we removed that dam. Actually, a 1:55:27.200 --> 1:55:29.840 few years ago I hosted the we had a ten 1:55:29.960 --> 1:55:33.840 year Returning Salmon celebration there because they thought it would 1:55:33.880 --> 1:55:36.240 take like several years to rebuild. But those fish have 1:55:36.320 --> 1:55:39.480 been coming back, like you open the door, they're they're gonna. 1:55:39.360 --> 1:55:42.840 Yeah, run past fall I think. 1:55:43.000 --> 1:55:47.320 Yeah, yeah, so it was that very next year. Yeah, 1:55:49.640 --> 1:55:54.360 this was the place my grandma was talking about. But yeah, 1:55:54.760 --> 1:55:58.360 it's just when you when you reconnect, you know, have 1:55:58.520 --> 1:56:01.400 those openings, then they're going to find the resources and 1:56:01.520 --> 1:56:08.160 return to those those areas they find their niche m yeah, 1:56:08.320 --> 1:56:11.000 I see. Doug has some pretty cool pictures of sea 1:56:11.080 --> 1:56:12.120 lions at Estoria. 1:56:12.160 --> 1:56:12.440 I was. 1:56:13.960 --> 1:56:14.640 Bringing it out. 1:56:15.040 --> 1:56:17.040 Yeah, yeah, I want to show you those things. We 1:56:17.080 --> 1:56:18.880 don't have a great media for for that. 1:56:19.080 --> 1:56:22.520 But yeah, oh we can share with Phil and he 1:56:22.560 --> 1:56:23.120 can put them. 1:56:23.040 --> 1:56:25.840 On okay, yeah, yeah, pretty And these were from twenty 1:56:25.920 --> 1:56:28.720 fifteen when that kind of been the peak of the 1:56:28.960 --> 1:56:31.720 sea lan issue. But they're just like all the docks 1:56:31.800 --> 1:56:34.920 in the East Morning Basin and History are completely covered 1:56:34.960 --> 1:56:38.720 with sea lions and then patrolling in the water trying 1:56:38.760 --> 1:56:40.120 to find a spot to get out. 1:56:41.720 --> 1:56:43.400 I keep sort of asking this, and I think Brody 1:56:43.400 --> 1:56:44.800 asked too. But that's wy I'll be clear on it. 1:56:46.600 --> 1:56:52.080 In a century, the big like in one hundred years, 1:56:53.160 --> 1:56:56.360 the big Columbia dams will still be there. 1:56:58.160 --> 1:57:01.640 It's hard to say because things are getting so bad now, 1:57:02.000 --> 1:57:08.040 Like you're starting to have closures of parks and boat 1:57:08.120 --> 1:57:11.840 ramps and areas because of toxic algo blooms in the 1:57:11.920 --> 1:57:15.320 summer because of heat. And I know right there in 1:57:15.360 --> 1:57:19.320 the Tri Cities there's been dogs that are dying people. 1:57:19.440 --> 1:57:21.200 You know, the dogs are running around in the water. 1:57:21.880 --> 1:57:24.760 And so I think when it starts, it's gonna start 1:57:25.000 --> 1:57:29.240 impacting people and those types of resources because of the 1:57:30.320 --> 1:57:31.879 degradation of water quality. 1:57:32.440 --> 1:57:34.480 And we didn't do it for sam and might do 1:57:34.560 --> 1:57:35.160 it for dogs. 1:57:35.600 --> 1:57:39.920 Yeah, but cattle the wrong. 1:57:39.800 --> 1:57:43.640 Suburbanites dog and they're gonna be like this cannot stand. Yeah. 1:57:44.000 --> 1:57:46.800 And then you know, like when cattle end up in 1:57:46.920 --> 1:57:50.440 those toxic algo bloom situations, it's like, well, if you 1:57:50.480 --> 1:57:53.560 would have just had this buffer from the stream to 1:57:53.720 --> 1:57:57.240 protect the nutrient loading in your creek, then your cattle 1:57:57.240 --> 1:57:59.880 wouldn't have died. But there's still up in arms of 1:58:00.000 --> 1:58:02.000 about their cattle dying because of it. 1:58:02.120 --> 1:58:04.040 So it could be like a broader. 1:58:06.200 --> 1:58:11.960 Like a broader litany of environmental degradations could bring up 1:58:12.040 --> 1:58:16.520 in the future more serious discussions about like doing something 1:58:16.640 --> 1:58:17.440 really radical. 1:58:18.120 --> 1:58:22.040 Yeah, and that's the thing, you know, Like I mentioned 1:58:22.080 --> 1:58:25.520 the Six Sovereigns and then we had that Resilient Columbia 1:58:25.600 --> 1:58:30.160 Basin Agreement. But our negotiating piece was the creation of 1:58:30.360 --> 1:58:36.440 the Columbia Basin Restoration Initiative. That's an initiative that's created 1:58:36.600 --> 1:58:40.320 and vetted by the Six Sovereigns. It's the tribes because 1:58:40.680 --> 1:58:43.000 our tribes we've had with crypt Fik, we've had the 1:58:43.120 --> 1:58:46.960 waikanashmu wa Kishwit, you know for twenty years, you know 1:58:47.160 --> 1:58:51.040 that set these these recovery plans and recovery goals. Well, 1:58:51.600 --> 1:58:55.040 this was taking that to the next step and coming 1:58:55.120 --> 1:58:58.000 together with our co manager. It's our guiding north star 1:58:58.240 --> 1:59:01.560 that we're still working towards. And so that's what we're 1:59:01.720 --> 1:59:06.520 looking at today about you know, habitat restoration in the 1:59:06.600 --> 1:59:10.600 mid Columbia. And also, like I mentioned, the it's cold 1:59:10.680 --> 1:59:16.120 water Refusia, the the through the migration corridor the Columbia 1:59:16.160 --> 1:59:19.000 where you have the tributary mouths, the deltas that are 1:59:19.360 --> 1:59:22.040 all full of sediment and you know, have all the 1:59:22.120 --> 1:59:25.280 predation and water quality issues and things like that. So 1:59:26.080 --> 1:59:29.640 we're able to like have this input of cold water 1:59:29.800 --> 1:59:33.720 to corral so that returning adults they have respite as 1:59:33.800 --> 1:59:37.600 they travel these hundreds of miles upstream. And that's something 1:59:37.680 --> 1:59:40.720 that's doable today. You know, we just got to break 1:59:40.800 --> 1:59:43.680 through the red tape and get the funding to actually 1:59:43.800 --> 1:59:47.600 do it, and that would be a huge benefit for salmon. 1:59:48.160 --> 1:59:51.040 Like we have all these recovery plans for the basins 1:59:51.200 --> 1:59:55.400 and you know habitat projects just waiting to be funded 1:59:55.960 --> 1:59:59.360 and then addressing these things. You know, predation have been 1:59:59.720 --> 2:00:03.560 this wiki wheel about predation over the past few years, 2:00:03.760 --> 2:00:07.240 like the pinniped predation, but also the avian predation and 2:00:07.680 --> 2:00:11.400 the piscine the warm water predators. But there's also invasives 2:00:11.520 --> 2:00:16.640 that are heavily impacting our river system and that's American shad. 2:00:17.320 --> 2:00:20.920 Those were introduced in the eighteen hundreds and there was 2:00:20.960 --> 2:00:25.000 a very problematic I saw article from the Seattle Times 2:00:25.240 --> 2:00:29.520 on the shad issue that they're just becoming accepted. That 2:00:29.720 --> 2:00:32.120 was the title, There's a new top fish in the 2:00:32.200 --> 2:00:35.560 Columbia and it doesn't mine the warm water where you 2:00:35.720 --> 2:00:40.240 have we've had years of eight million shad returning road 2:00:41.000 --> 2:00:46.240 and so that's totally unnatural. And that's that that feeds 2:00:46.320 --> 2:00:50.040 the predators when you know, because their life cycle is opposite. 2:00:50.160 --> 2:00:53.160 So when these warm water predators there, the salmonids are 2:00:53.160 --> 2:00:56.160 out there eating juvenile shad, and then you have all 2:00:56.240 --> 2:01:00.680 the pelicans that are feasting on shad and they're spawning 2:01:00.760 --> 2:01:03.880 in the main stem. So it's a huge nutrient load. 2:01:04.280 --> 2:01:07.879 And so you have all this aquatic vegetation and algae 2:01:07.960 --> 2:01:11.200 growth because it's it's not meant to be there, right, 2:01:11.880 --> 2:01:15.520 you have barren tributaries that don't get those marine nutrients, 2:01:15.600 --> 2:01:19.160 but they're all piled in the main stem, and why 2:01:19.280 --> 2:01:20.800 the main stam's green now? 2:01:22.960 --> 2:01:24.640 But dude, go ahead one more. 2:01:25.760 --> 2:01:28.520 You hinted at how far the sam will go earlier 2:01:29.160 --> 2:01:31.840 if those dams weren't there, Like what would be the 2:01:32.080 --> 2:01:35.760 terminal point for these these chanook Like how far would 2:01:35.760 --> 2:01:37.200 they go and where would they end up? 2:01:38.280 --> 2:01:42.200 I know, like distance wise in the Snake basin would 2:01:42.240 --> 2:01:45.560 be at Twin Falls because you have the falls that 2:01:45.800 --> 2:01:48.880 was it's huge. And then they went all the way 2:01:48.960 --> 2:01:52.960 up into the tributaries and the headwaters. And in Canada, 2:01:53.640 --> 2:01:56.000 you know that little piece of Montana where the Cootney 2:01:56.200 --> 2:01:59.840 is and and you know, like you have the win 2:02:00.080 --> 2:02:06.280 actually the Metau, the Antaia and the Yakama Basin, so 2:02:06.520 --> 2:02:10.160 all up into the Cascades up into Canada around in Montana. 2:02:10.560 --> 2:02:14.360 How far it stretches Idaho and even Nevada right too. 2:02:14.720 --> 2:02:16.200 Yeah, it's incredible, man. 2:02:16.240 --> 2:02:17.960 Yeah, Steell, had they'd go all the way up the 2:02:18.640 --> 2:02:21.280 Yhi River there in the Nevada, you'd get them up 2:02:21.320 --> 2:02:25.840 the Salmon River up past Stanley almost a glean of 2:02:25.880 --> 2:02:28.120 Summit right at the headwaters the Salmon which is like 2:02:28.640 --> 2:02:31.360 forty miles north of sun Valley, so like twice as 2:02:31.400 --> 2:02:33.320 far as where you you were seeing them. 2:02:33.560 --> 2:02:37.360 Yeah, and even like the other species, Like I always said, 2:02:37.400 --> 2:02:42.520 we're you know, comprehensive and holistic in our salmon recovery efforts, 2:02:42.600 --> 2:02:45.480 like lamprey, I think, you know, we put you know, 2:02:45.560 --> 2:02:48.480 their sacred food source to us. And they were also medicinal, 2:02:48.720 --> 2:02:51.120 you know, like because there's so oily that that was 2:02:51.200 --> 2:02:53.760 your skin salve and your ear drops and stuff when 2:02:54.360 --> 2:02:56.920 you know, before you could go to the drug store. 2:02:57.120 --> 2:03:01.040 And but the the benefit that they brought to the 2:03:01.160 --> 2:03:04.360 system and all of the nutrients in the forests and 2:03:04.560 --> 2:03:09.040 the animals, and you know, like forest habitat, like they're 2:03:09.480 --> 2:03:13.840 lacking those marine driven nutrients for the standing forests. And 2:03:13.920 --> 2:03:17.640 then also like management. I think back to I watched 2:03:17.680 --> 2:03:21.800 your hunting show Blue Mountain, Blue Mountain Bulls, and it 2:03:21.920 --> 2:03:25.000 was on fire, right there was forest fire. We're seeing 2:03:25.080 --> 2:03:28.800 that more and more. It's forest management practices. But also 2:03:29.520 --> 2:03:32.560 you know, like we don't have the same nutrients coming 2:03:32.640 --> 2:03:36.360 into the forest to grow, but you know those that's 2:03:36.400 --> 2:03:38.840 the other side of the aspects. We will touch all 2:03:39.000 --> 2:03:42.000 aspects of it, and I think lamprey is a huge 2:03:42.080 --> 2:03:45.400 part of that. Doug showed me a picture. It's the 2:03:45.480 --> 2:03:49.200 Bruno River that flows into Nevada. It's they do watered 2:03:49.240 --> 2:03:52.200 this this dam or whatever they're standing on the cement. 2:03:52.720 --> 2:03:57.000 There's like thousands and thousands of lamprey and that's hundreds 2:03:57.080 --> 2:04:00.840 of miles from the ocean in this one little tributary. 2:04:01.320 --> 2:04:05.480 Imagine how many there were all throughout the basin, millions 2:04:05.520 --> 2:04:09.200 and millions, and all of that's gone now and there's 2:04:09.240 --> 2:04:13.400 an effect. It's a ripple effect through the entire ecosystem 2:04:13.840 --> 2:04:16.480 and so us just to try to put all these 2:04:16.560 --> 2:04:21.680 building blocks back together to create that better tomorrow, because 2:04:21.720 --> 2:04:24.680 we can't restore the salmon back to barren streams even 2:04:24.760 --> 2:04:27.720 looking at you know, benthic organisms and things like that, 2:04:28.080 --> 2:04:32.680 so you know, working with beavers and all of that stuff. 2:04:32.760 --> 2:04:35.600 So we're coming at it from all angles. 2:04:35.920 --> 2:04:38.640 And to bring it back to your simile parous fish. See, 2:04:38.680 --> 2:04:42.000 these fish died, right, they go up and they die, 2:04:42.200 --> 2:04:45.480 and they brought all those nutrients from the ocean back 2:04:45.600 --> 2:04:48.560 to the forest and they get hauled out by bears 2:04:48.640 --> 2:04:51.560 and otters and everything else and brought in and so 2:04:51.680 --> 2:04:55.520 it's the whole thing has been cut off. Those forests 2:04:55.600 --> 2:04:59.800 have lost all of that nutrient input for one hundred years, 2:05:00.040 --> 2:05:00.720 in fifty years. 2:05:01.000 --> 2:05:04.200 My brother's a fisheries biologists in Alaska and they've been 2:05:04.280 --> 2:05:07.160 tracking that by with marine isotopes. 2:05:07.240 --> 2:05:11.640 Yeah, so you have all these these like traceable elements. 2:05:11.720 --> 2:05:13.120 Yeah, Strontium is one that. 2:05:13.160 --> 2:05:15.840 That you know came from the ocean yep. 2:05:16.160 --> 2:05:18.400 And the way it got from the ocean into the 2:05:18.480 --> 2:05:21.800 mountains was on a fish, right, And then you look 2:05:21.840 --> 2:05:25.800 at how that stuff is used by vegetation and animals 2:05:25.920 --> 2:05:29.200 and it's like marine just a picture of like that 2:05:29.360 --> 2:05:31.880 fish are a way of like wheel barrowing in. 2:05:33.720 --> 2:05:35.960 Nutrients into nutrient poor regions. 2:05:36.640 --> 2:05:36.880 Yeah. 2:05:37.160 --> 2:05:38.880 Yeah, and you pluck that out and it's like you're 2:05:38.920 --> 2:05:40.200 not fertilizing it anymore. 2:05:40.440 --> 2:05:42.400 Yeah, I mean you get up like I said, in 2:05:42.480 --> 2:05:45.280 that upper part of the salmon, it's just granitic soil. 2:05:45.360 --> 2:05:48.760 There's no nutrients to speak of up there. Ultra clear water. 2:05:48.880 --> 2:05:52.920 It's gin clear, but the nutrients aren't coming from what's running. 2:05:53.040 --> 2:05:56.520 So it used to get millions of pounds of natural fertilized. 2:05:56.040 --> 2:05:57.360 Exactly, you know, exactly. 2:05:58.560 --> 2:06:01.040 And the other thing you were, like you honestly you 2:06:01.080 --> 2:06:04.240 were asking is there a way to operate the hydrosystem 2:06:04.320 --> 2:06:07.520 and still have salmon? But like I said, the ever 2:06:07.640 --> 2:06:11.360 changing goalposts and maybe things that would help would be 2:06:11.760 --> 2:06:15.160 like you know, bringing on renewables and also battery storage 2:06:15.520 --> 2:06:18.320 so you're not depending on the river to be your 2:06:18.360 --> 2:06:21.440 battery that you turn off and on. But then there's impacts, 2:06:21.480 --> 2:06:24.160 there's trade offs and everything you do. But that's where 2:06:24.200 --> 2:06:26.240 the tribes come in and advocate to do things in 2:06:26.360 --> 2:06:29.640 a responsible manner. Like all of our tribes have their own, 2:06:30.280 --> 2:06:33.320 you know, utilities. We're looking at different types of energy 2:06:33.360 --> 2:06:36.200 production and that was part of the agreement, and the 2:06:36.280 --> 2:06:43.080 litigation was funding for energy projects, you know, administered by 2:06:43.120 --> 2:06:46.920 the tribes like the Yakmination. They're working on a solar 2:06:47.040 --> 2:06:51.200 over irrigation project and also a dry pump storage project 2:06:51.320 --> 2:06:55.520 using rail railroad cars that you lift up and down 2:06:55.600 --> 2:07:01.360 the hill. And they're working at pump storage at several places. 2:07:01.440 --> 2:07:05.240 One is a really big issue for our tribes and 2:07:05.360 --> 2:07:09.960 especially the Acmination is a golden al pump storage project. 2:07:10.080 --> 2:07:13.440 It's they want to withdraw withdraw water from the Columbia, 2:07:14.000 --> 2:07:17.720 build a reservoir up on the hill, and then you know, 2:07:17.840 --> 2:07:20.040 they just pump it in a loop. You know, they 2:07:20.520 --> 2:07:23.560 generate power when they need it and then pump it 2:07:23.680 --> 2:07:26.800 back up off peak when it's cheap. And then so 2:07:26.920 --> 2:07:29.840 you have all these For one, they're boring through the 2:07:29.920 --> 2:07:32.640 mountain and then they want to tap into the John 2:07:32.680 --> 2:07:36.160 Day power line system to export that power. And then 2:07:36.200 --> 2:07:39.960 there's also a super fun site blow from an abandoned 2:07:40.000 --> 2:07:43.880 aluminum smelter that's never been cleaned up, and it's one 2:07:43.920 --> 2:07:47.360 of our sacred sites. It's like a push pump. It's 2:07:47.480 --> 2:07:49.960 like the mother of all roots. It's a place where 2:07:50.080 --> 2:07:54.840 we still go and gather and they just like, okay, yeah, 2:07:54.920 --> 2:07:57.240 you move aside, and we're going to do this here now. 2:07:57.480 --> 2:08:01.720 And it's literally drilling a thirty diameter tunnel through the 2:08:01.800 --> 2:08:05.240 mountain and you'll see that also all in the surrounding 2:08:05.360 --> 2:08:10.880 area of the windmills, the wind generation, which like why 2:08:10.960 --> 2:08:14.440 does it have to be all on our you know, 2:08:14.760 --> 2:08:19.040 native lands, open lands, Like isn't there like low value 2:08:19.080 --> 2:08:23.240 agriculture that they could incorporate, agra, voltaics and things like that. 2:08:23.480 --> 2:08:26.960 It's always looking at what's cheapest and easiest, and that's 2:08:27.160 --> 2:08:30.160 like these public lands that they get a thirty year 2:08:30.240 --> 2:08:32.600 lease from and you know, once they go in and 2:08:33.680 --> 2:08:36.360 alter it, it's you know, it's never the same. And 2:08:36.440 --> 2:08:40.280 it impacts the withdrawals from the river for these things. 2:08:40.320 --> 2:08:44.520 And even the solar has huge impacts to the water 2:08:44.640 --> 2:08:48.000 table because they need water to clean the solar panels, 2:08:48.400 --> 2:08:51.280 so there's a huge water usage even with solar production. 2:08:51.960 --> 2:08:54.960 So what we're saying is we're not against all of 2:08:55.000 --> 2:08:58.560 these things, but like, let's not be in a rush 2:08:58.680 --> 2:09:01.800 to do it, and let's do things right, and we 2:09:01.920 --> 2:09:04.800 can't put all of these burdens on the backs of 2:09:04.880 --> 2:09:08.200 the salmon and all the users who depend on them, 2:09:08.320 --> 2:09:11.920 the tribal people and the community members, because we're the 2:09:12.040 --> 2:09:15.560 ones that these resources are extracted and all the burdens 2:09:15.600 --> 2:09:18.240 placed on us, and it's all goes outside. It's all 2:09:18.880 --> 2:09:26.200 international companies exporting power to California into these industrial users 2:09:26.320 --> 2:09:29.480 and data centers and things like that. It's like again 2:09:29.560 --> 2:09:33.080 and again the same story. So let's do things slow down, 2:09:33.440 --> 2:09:36.120 do things better, Like, yeah we can, we need to 2:09:36.200 --> 2:09:40.400 do better, find renewables, but let's do it right. So 2:09:40.840 --> 2:09:43.920 not just what's cheapest. What's cheapest today may not be 2:09:44.040 --> 2:09:47.080 in the long run because even if they maybe they 2:09:47.120 --> 2:09:50.160 if they would have put more maintenance into the hydrosystem, 2:09:50.240 --> 2:09:52.880 now we wouldn't be we wouldn't have these billion dollar 2:09:53.000 --> 2:09:54.880 backlogs and and things like that. 2:09:55.520 --> 2:10:00.680 So yeah, man, you guys aren me. Something's going to 2:10:00.680 --> 2:10:01.680 put on a good mood. 2:10:02.760 --> 2:10:05.160 They got some success stories we could go over. 2:10:06.040 --> 2:10:08.680 Yeah, pulls out too. 2:10:08.880 --> 2:10:12.120 There's like speaking of Boogeyman, Like I feel like we 2:10:12.240 --> 2:10:16.320 grew up in the lamprey was the devil of all. 2:10:16.440 --> 2:10:19.480 Devil was non native, right, Yeah, I know, but still, 2:10:20.400 --> 2:10:22.520 you know, like I've never heard of a good lamprey. 2:10:22.760 --> 2:10:25.760 And here you guys are trying to like promote it. 2:10:25.840 --> 2:10:27.400 So can we just touch on that a little bit, Yeah, 2:10:27.400 --> 2:10:29.800 because when we grew up in Michigan, it was like 2:10:29.880 --> 2:10:33.080 when you went to the hatchery we had, I can't 2:10:33.080 --> 2:10:35.080 remember the name of the hit hatchery. Now they're in 2:10:35.200 --> 2:10:37.000 Kalama Zoo, but like every year you'd go on a 2:10:37.040 --> 2:10:39.800 field trip there and like it would just be nothing 2:10:39.920 --> 2:10:42.800 but placards on the walls about how the lamp wege 2:10:42.920 --> 2:10:44.120 is killing off everything. 2:10:44.160 --> 2:10:46.360 It's like a system that a system. It's like any 2:10:46.480 --> 2:10:50.240 any invasive species story. It's a system that hadn't adapted 2:10:50.600 --> 2:10:53.960 with it, and then all of a sudden, tada, here's 2:10:53.960 --> 2:10:57.760 a bunch of lampreys and like every non native species story, 2:10:57.880 --> 2:11:01.600 it just explodes at great expense to native fish. 2:11:02.680 --> 2:11:05.640 And so then you hear like, oh, you know where 2:11:05.720 --> 2:11:06.720 they are from. 2:11:07.320 --> 2:11:10.160 But in your neck of the woods they co exist, Yeah, and. 2:11:10.480 --> 2:11:15.800 They're they have that relationship. Right. They're parasitic but not lethal. 2:11:16.160 --> 2:11:18.280 You could see sometimes you catch salmon it has a 2:11:18.320 --> 2:11:20.680 little round mark with the teeth. 2:11:21.360 --> 2:11:23.960 Lake trout, yeah, but in the Great Lakes system they 2:11:24.000 --> 2:11:26.040 were killing Yeah, because again, as a fish that was 2:11:26.160 --> 2:11:27.120 hadn't adapted with the. 2:11:27.200 --> 2:11:28.960 Risk, you know, yeah, so they do. 2:11:29.240 --> 2:11:32.240 They are parasitic, they but they don't kill their hosts 2:11:32.520 --> 2:11:35.320 like they drop off, and they can swim and migrate 2:11:35.400 --> 2:11:38.160 and everything. And then the benefit that they serve to 2:11:38.240 --> 2:11:41.600 the salmon is, you know, they're spawning in these tributaries 2:11:41.640 --> 2:11:44.880 as well, and then they're breaking down all the the 2:11:45.000 --> 2:11:48.560 detritus and things like that. So they're the filters and 2:11:48.720 --> 2:11:50.720 the cleaners of in the tributaries. 2:11:50.800 --> 2:11:55.640 And so yeah, it's and these are Pacific lamprey that 2:11:55.760 --> 2:11:58.480 we have. Those are sea lamprey in the Great Lakes, Okay. 2:11:58.600 --> 2:12:00.480 And you know that's like you said, that's an an 2:12:00.520 --> 2:12:03.920 invasive in the Great Lakes. These are these are native fish. 2:12:04.240 --> 2:12:05.600 And so where is the sea lamprey? 2:12:05.680 --> 2:12:07.720 Originally from East coast and. 2:12:08.120 --> 2:12:11.040 Yeah, and what happened was sea lamp rays couldn't get 2:12:11.040 --> 2:12:14.840 past Niagara Falls and so then when they got moved 2:12:15.400 --> 2:12:18.640 eventually like that was a natural barrier and so the 2:12:18.760 --> 2:12:21.320 upper systems never had them. And then eventually on ship 2:12:21.440 --> 2:12:25.200 ballast or whatever, lampreys got moved above a natural barrier 2:12:25.240 --> 2:12:29.800 and then and just decimated lake trout, you know, and 2:12:29.880 --> 2:12:33.480 they started all those different programs of poisoning spawning beds 2:12:33.560 --> 2:12:36.640 and it still goes on. Why, Like you're talking about 2:12:36.720 --> 2:12:39.400 like another Doge cut was there was a big dough 2:12:39.520 --> 2:12:43.760 there was a big Doge cut around like all this 2:12:44.000 --> 2:12:46.240 work to try to get lampreys under control in the 2:12:46.280 --> 2:12:48.720 Great Lakes system, and then they were acting the people 2:12:48.800 --> 2:12:51.840 that run the program, and that was when that. 2:12:51.920 --> 2:12:52.240 Was going on. 2:12:52.360 --> 2:12:54.240 I pointed out, like on the show, I pointed out 2:12:54.320 --> 2:12:56.800 that there's a little bit of a like you said, 2:12:56.840 --> 2:12:59.800 like paying attention to what the ramifications are. We've spent 2:13:00.040 --> 2:13:02.839 millions and millions and millions of dollars getting them under control, 2:13:03.440 --> 2:13:05.640 and then you and then you go to save a 2:13:05.720 --> 2:13:08.840 couple of bucks by ditching some dudes, you know, and 2:13:08.920 --> 2:13:11.120 then all of a sudden, the whole investment goes out 2:13:11.200 --> 2:13:13.000 the window, you know, because you're trying to save a 2:13:13.040 --> 2:13:18.240 couple of dollars. Right, Yeah, but that's different watershed, different problems. 2:13:18.480 --> 2:13:21.840 Do people ever eat these pacific Yeah? 2:13:22.120 --> 2:13:25.400 Yeah, Actually I meant to bring some today, but I 2:13:25.440 --> 2:13:27.560 didn't get to meet up with my with my friend 2:13:27.640 --> 2:13:29.960 that she had some that she had put away that 2:13:31.360 --> 2:13:34.320 it was we dried them, you know, you eat them fresh, 2:13:34.720 --> 2:13:38.720 roast them, and they're really really rich. I'd say, it's 2:13:38.760 --> 2:13:41.480 an acquired taste. I'll send some to you guys. You 2:13:41.520 --> 2:13:44.200 can taste it some dried lamprey. But yeah, it's really 2:13:44.280 --> 2:13:48.880 oily fish. And you know, like that was highly sought after, right, 2:13:49.040 --> 2:13:50.840 you need those calories to. 2:13:51.640 --> 2:13:53.720 They're in a Scofia's cook But one of the things 2:13:53.760 --> 2:13:57.200 that when I was doing Scavenger's Guide to Oat Cuisine, 2:13:57.240 --> 2:13:59.920 one of the things I bombed out on was getting lamprey. 2:14:00.160 --> 2:14:03.800 But that was in the Scofias cookbooks like French French Preparation, 2:14:03.920 --> 2:14:06.120 French Lamprey Preparation, a. 2:14:06.160 --> 2:14:08.800 Bit like ru orl. 2:14:08.960 --> 2:14:09.040 Right. 2:14:09.880 --> 2:14:12.400 Yeah, it's like, yeah, you head, you think you're looking 2:14:12.440 --> 2:14:12.640 at it. 2:14:12.680 --> 2:14:16.760 Eel and they're crazy. Just the biology of them is 2:14:16.800 --> 2:14:19.880 pretty crazy. They're carlaginous fish. They're an ancient fish. 2:14:20.080 --> 2:14:20.560 Jallis. 2:14:21.200 --> 2:14:24.000 They're four hundred million years old, I mean, and they 2:14:24.080 --> 2:14:26.520 were here that long ago. I mean when that was 2:14:26.600 --> 2:14:30.560 when you know, the continents were all connected, and they've 2:14:30.600 --> 2:14:34.600 been able to figure out how to survive until man 2:14:34.720 --> 2:14:37.800 put enough dams on the river that we've you know, 2:14:37.880 --> 2:14:40.360 they went down to critically low numbers in the Columbia, 2:14:40.440 --> 2:14:43.280 probably down to twenty thousand or so. It's we've had 2:14:43.400 --> 2:14:46.520 lamprey programs going for a while. Now it's the tribes 2:14:46.560 --> 2:14:49.360 and it is coming back, and we've got lamprey that 2:14:49.440 --> 2:14:53.560 we've got coming back to Idaho and other higher tributaries. 2:14:53.720 --> 2:14:56.880 They're really they're a weak swimmer, so getting over dams 2:14:57.040 --> 2:14:59.640 is a difficult thing. There's been a lot of technology 2:14:59.680 --> 2:15:01.680 stuff to try and figure out how to get a 2:15:01.760 --> 2:15:02.760 move but it's getting. 2:15:02.640 --> 2:15:05.640 You go to like the Yukon costco quem Colbac River 2:15:06.320 --> 2:15:09.280 that's like an indigenous subsistence fishery still with lampreys. 2:15:09.480 --> 2:15:14.120 Yeah, it was fifty percent at each mainstem project that 2:15:14.240 --> 2:15:17.680 you'd lose of adult lamprey returning. So that's why it 2:15:17.800 --> 2:15:20.800 was the tribes that took the initiative to start the 2:15:21.000 --> 2:15:25.200 lamprey translocation so collect that Jonnaville dam and then take 2:15:25.240 --> 2:15:28.440 them up to the tributaries and that's how we're starting 2:15:28.480 --> 2:15:31.000 to see fish returning. So we want to do more 2:15:31.040 --> 2:15:35.440 of that and also installing passage for lamprey, like a 2:15:35.480 --> 2:15:38.240 wetted wall, you know, for them to work their way 2:15:38.320 --> 2:15:40.960 up because they can't go up the fish ladders because 2:15:41.000 --> 2:15:45.400 there's you know, perpendicular surfaces there. Yeah, so they're trying 2:15:45.440 --> 2:15:47.720 to swim up. They can't make it, but they could 2:15:47.760 --> 2:15:50.440 go all the way up that wetted wall, and so 2:15:50.560 --> 2:15:54.880 we're looking at adult passage at the dam's translocation. Another 2:15:54.960 --> 2:15:59.320 hard thing is a lot of the juveniles get sucked 2:15:59.360 --> 2:16:01.800 out into ear because you know, it's like a little 2:16:01.880 --> 2:16:06.000 worm in the slats on a screen. You know, they 2:16:06.040 --> 2:16:09.800 would have to be outrageously small to keep the lamprey out. 2:16:10.120 --> 2:16:12.480 So they wound up going through sprinkler systems. 2:16:12.720 --> 2:16:15.440 End up in all the irrigation canals and whatnot, and 2:16:15.560 --> 2:16:18.640 we do salvages when they shut down the canal, we'll 2:16:18.680 --> 2:16:20.880 go in there and try to salvage as many of 2:16:20.960 --> 2:16:21.360 the jus. 2:16:23.160 --> 2:16:26.360 And they're super complicated, so the life history of them 2:16:26.440 --> 2:16:29.400 and so everything you learned about salmon doesn't really apply. 2:16:29.840 --> 2:16:32.600 So it's trying to relearn all these things. They don't 2:16:32.680 --> 2:16:36.200 home like a salmon. If you get it in a 2:16:36.280 --> 2:16:38.680 particular area, they're going to come back to that spot 2:16:39.160 --> 2:16:41.160 to spawn, and lamprey don't. 2:16:41.320 --> 2:16:44.240 So it's well, they don't have like their site fidelity 2:16:44.280 --> 2:16:45.200 that just go wherever they go. 2:16:45.400 --> 2:16:48.680 They're just distributed by currents. 2:16:48.879 --> 2:16:52.080 Yeah, so a degree there is some that come back 2:16:52.120 --> 2:16:54.760 and they do have a pheromone that they give off, 2:16:54.879 --> 2:16:58.240 and if there's juveniles there, they'll come back to that location. 2:16:58.840 --> 2:17:02.640 But it wasn't necessary where they were born, so it's 2:17:03.680 --> 2:17:05.840 complicated to try and restor them, and really it needs 2:17:06.080 --> 2:17:08.760 a broader coast wide effort then if you need to 2:17:08.879 --> 2:17:11.800 improve it in a lot of streams, not just You 2:17:11.920 --> 2:17:14.600 can't just do a stream like you do with salmon 2:17:14.800 --> 2:17:17.120 and expect that that homing is going to help you 2:17:17.240 --> 2:17:19.039 out and they'll come back. Isn't going to happen. 2:17:19.240 --> 2:17:22.480 And they're anagronous, but not the word I was saying earlier. 2:17:22.840 --> 2:17:26.640 They're not similar Paris. They're inter ol Paris. Yeah, they 2:17:26.720 --> 2:17:30.520 can repeat spawn, although not that much. And we don't 2:17:30.560 --> 2:17:32.879 know so much of it. We just don't know about 2:17:32.879 --> 2:17:35.000 it because it hasn't been a sexy fish to study. 2:17:35.200 --> 2:17:37.600 No, right, yeah, well there's a lot going on with 2:17:37.720 --> 2:17:40.960 them now. And what's crazy. It's funny, but it's not. 2:17:41.800 --> 2:17:44.560 We were at the dam right Bonneville down where they 2:17:44.600 --> 2:17:46.920 have the fish bewing windows and that's where they count 2:17:47.320 --> 2:17:52.120 right back in the nineties, the core actually used to 2:17:52.240 --> 2:17:55.360 have an air blast system. Those damn lamprey getting in 2:17:55.480 --> 2:17:57.800 the way. They would air blast them off. 2:17:58.600 --> 2:18:01.560 Oh really yeah, yeah, looked like a series of moss, 2:18:01.720 --> 2:18:03.840 you know. Or they'd be attached to the window and 2:18:04.120 --> 2:18:07.520 it would obstruct the view to count salm. And so 2:18:07.600 --> 2:18:09.800 they blast them off every ten or fifteen minutes, and 2:18:09.800 --> 2:18:11.160 they push him down the ladder. 2:18:11.400 --> 2:18:11.520 Yea. 2:18:11.760 --> 2:18:15.400 My brother Danny is a salmon biologist in Alaska. He 2:18:15.560 --> 2:18:17.640 works on that stable isotope issues and a bunch of 2:18:17.680 --> 2:18:21.800 other stuff, a lot of like warm water issues and 2:18:21.879 --> 2:18:26.840 other things, but impacts warm water. One of his first, 2:18:27.000 --> 2:18:30.080 I think his first paid fisheries gig was he was 2:18:30.120 --> 2:18:32.640 in walla wall of Washington and he was paid to 2:18:32.680 --> 2:18:34.279 sit there looking out that window. 2:18:35.600 --> 2:18:39.760 Count fish. This is one of his first paid gigs. Man. Yeah, 2:18:40.160 --> 2:18:42.880 living like living in basically living inside the damn counting 2:18:42.920 --> 2:18:44.280 fish in the window and writing it down. 2:18:44.800 --> 2:18:45.000 Yeah. 2:18:47.360 --> 2:18:49.000 Well, man, I feel like we could go. 2:18:49.080 --> 2:18:52.800 On all day, but we didn't even hit success stories 2:18:53.440 --> 2:18:54.480 or more success stories. 2:18:54.600 --> 2:18:57.360 Well yeah, who can conveniently give us some success stories? 2:18:58.520 --> 2:18:58.640 Uh? 2:18:58.840 --> 2:19:00.600 Well, we can just read them off from them, will 2:19:00.680 --> 2:19:05.000 have them give us the short version. Steel had reconditioning. 2:19:06.640 --> 2:19:09.200 Yeah, so that's a thing I've been working on for 2:19:09.480 --> 2:19:14.520 twenty five years, along with a really good group of people. 2:19:15.480 --> 2:19:20.040 But basically so Steell had our ittero Paris. They repeat spawn. 2:19:20.120 --> 2:19:22.560 There's they're rainbow trout, so they can spawn and they 2:19:22.600 --> 2:19:25.440 can spawn again. They'll go up to whatever river they're 2:19:25.480 --> 2:19:27.760 in and then they spawn and they try to go 2:19:27.879 --> 2:19:30.440 back downstream and go back to the ocean. And in 2:19:30.560 --> 2:19:34.680 a totally natural system, the number of repeat spawners that 2:19:34.760 --> 2:19:38.080 you have in your population will range anywhere from you know, 2:19:38.240 --> 2:19:41.280 five to six percent up to maybe thirty or forty percent. 2:19:41.480 --> 2:19:43.760 It's kind of dependent on how close you are to 2:19:43.800 --> 2:19:46.120 the ocean. Closer to the ocean, the higher you get 2:19:46.200 --> 2:19:50.520 of these repeat spawners through the hydrosystem. They don't don't 2:19:50.560 --> 2:19:52.760 make it. I mean, it is definitely not set up 2:19:52.840 --> 2:19:55.880 for a large fished pass downstream. And a lot of 2:19:55.959 --> 2:19:59.600 them will go through the bypasses, the juvenile bypass system, 2:19:59.640 --> 2:20:03.080 and they're they get screened off and we collect those fish, 2:20:03.240 --> 2:20:07.440 collect them at lower Granite other places. We take those 2:20:07.520 --> 2:20:11.080 fish then into a hatchery, put them in tanks. We've 2:20:11.120 --> 2:20:17.800 got specialized fish culture, fish care, and well we'll feed 2:20:17.920 --> 2:20:21.320 them to where they survive and then they'll remature. And 2:20:21.440 --> 2:20:24.320 this has been concentrated on wild fish, so there's a 2:20:24.360 --> 2:20:26.880 fish that successfully spawned. There were no eggs in it 2:20:26.959 --> 2:20:30.120 when we collected them in that damn they go up. 2:20:30.600 --> 2:20:35.000 We've reconditioned them, release them either that fall or some 2:20:35.200 --> 2:20:37.959 of them will skip and they won't spawn again until 2:20:37.959 --> 2:20:40.520 the following fall. Will hold them for eighteen months, keep 2:20:40.600 --> 2:20:43.160 feeding them. We let them go downstream of where we 2:20:43.280 --> 2:20:45.880 had collected them, and then they go back upstream and 2:20:46.000 --> 2:20:46.760 spawn and. 2:20:46.800 --> 2:20:48.480 They skip their whole return to the ocean. 2:20:48.600 --> 2:20:53.320 Right, So we circumvented that. Yeah, yeah, so. 2:20:53.400 --> 2:20:56.000 You've cut out whatever mortality happens out on the open 2:20:56.040 --> 2:20:56.959 ocean exactly. 2:20:57.360 --> 2:21:02.000 Our communications director he made it a little pamphlet and 2:21:02.120 --> 2:21:05.439 it shows like the steelhead spa where he's kicked. 2:21:05.240 --> 2:21:09.360 Bag No kid really yeah, and you'll say like, we'll 2:21:09.400 --> 2:21:12.160 take care of everything, brother, Yeah, and then when you're 2:21:12.160 --> 2:21:13.520 ready to go again, we'll let you go. 2:21:13.760 --> 2:21:16.520 And they home back to the same stream and we have. 2:21:16.720 --> 2:21:17.960 How many fish? Can you actually do that? 2:21:18.120 --> 2:21:20.560 Well, it's a it's a it's a safety net thing, right. 2:21:20.600 --> 2:21:23.800 I Mean, you got these low number numbers of fish 2:21:23.879 --> 2:21:26.680 in certain populations and you can target it to those 2:21:26.760 --> 2:21:29.280 streams by having a weird some way of collecting to 2:21:29.400 --> 2:21:31.840 that stream, and especially in a place where you're really 2:21:31.879 --> 2:21:35.600 worried about them blinking out, or you get bigger collections, 2:21:35.680 --> 2:21:38.440 more generalized, like Lower Granite has the whole Snake River. 2:21:39.120 --> 2:21:43.119 We release them though in the fish one hundred maybe 2:21:43.200 --> 2:21:45.560 or one hundred and fifty, we've been concentrated. We've been 2:21:45.600 --> 2:21:49.000 doing it at a research scale. This is now I'm 2:21:49.120 --> 2:21:51.880 trying to do It's finally now we're gearing up to 2:21:51.959 --> 2:21:53.920 do this as a production scale. It's in those first 2:21:54.000 --> 2:21:57.840 tried project at a production scale. But there's fish that 2:21:57.959 --> 2:22:00.959 go back to the Imnaha, the upper sand and remember 2:22:01.080 --> 2:22:05.280 the Grand drawn, the clear water, the sea sash, everywhere 2:22:05.600 --> 2:22:05.880 this is. 2:22:05.920 --> 2:22:09.800 But it'll like, it's great, it's great wildfish, and I 2:22:09.879 --> 2:22:11.760 know we're looking for positives. It's great, but it's like 2:22:11.920 --> 2:22:13.720 that is sort of like definite, you know, the term 2:22:13.800 --> 2:22:17.960 conservation dependent. That is like like the poster child of 2:22:18.040 --> 2:22:22.960 conservation dependence, right, you know, I mean we have the 2:22:23.000 --> 2:22:27.240 fish because we literally handle it and care for it. 2:22:27.800 --> 2:22:32.880 You know, Yeah, it's it's great, but but I mean, 2:22:33.120 --> 2:22:36.440 you know, I don't want to be Debbie Downer. It's great, 2:22:36.480 --> 2:22:38.320 but it's like, holy shit, has it come to that? 2:22:38.760 --> 2:22:40.680 Do you know what I mean, that's the problem is 2:22:40.800 --> 2:22:44.120 that wild steelhead recovery nothing's really worked. 2:22:44.360 --> 2:22:45.599 Yeah, you do supplementation. 2:22:45.800 --> 2:22:47.640 Some things that have worked we've been able to pull 2:22:47.720 --> 2:22:50.800 off with Simon hasn't worked for steel hell. We get 2:22:50.879 --> 2:22:53.480 hatchery fish, but getting more wild. 2:22:53.640 --> 2:22:53.840 Yeah. 2:22:53.879 --> 2:22:56.119 All this conversation about how do you get these big 2:22:56.240 --> 2:22:58.680 ass fish out of the ocean to their spawning grounds, 2:22:58.680 --> 2:23:00.600 and with steelhead, it's like, Okay, let's get these big 2:23:00.680 --> 2:23:03.320 ass fish out of the ocean up to their spawning grounds, 2:23:03.680 --> 2:23:06.480 back to the ocean, right yep. 2:23:06.520 --> 2:23:07.720 And you're like, oh, that's tricky. 2:23:08.320 --> 2:23:08.560 Yep. 2:23:08.680 --> 2:23:10.520 Right, they're not going back down yep. 2:23:10.800 --> 2:23:14.280 What about like Snake River, fall Chanook and then Sake 2:23:14.480 --> 2:23:18.080 and Cooho. We've got those on the list for your 2:23:18.120 --> 2:23:18.959 success stories. 2:23:20.440 --> 2:23:20.640 Yeah. 2:23:20.720 --> 2:23:24.120 So in about the early nineties, Snake River fall Chanook 2:23:24.120 --> 2:23:27.920 were under one hundred fish at Lower Granite and Nesper's 2:23:28.000 --> 2:23:33.240 tribe had a patchy program for fall Chinook, and that 2:23:33.720 --> 2:23:36.760 stock has rebounded to where the peak was about ninety 2:23:36.840 --> 2:23:40.480 thousand fish in the Snake River. I think it's hovering 2:23:40.600 --> 2:23:44.000 now around anywhere from thirty to fifty thousand with. 2:23:44.080 --> 2:23:45.119 Some natural reproduction. 2:23:45.320 --> 2:23:47.400 Yeah yeah, yeah, so you get some natural So the 2:23:47.520 --> 2:23:50.960 idea there is to collect the fish and then out 2:23:51.240 --> 2:23:54.640 outplant those juveniles so that they'll return to the So. 2:23:54.760 --> 2:23:57.920 There you're helping them. You're helping them get back to 2:23:58.000 --> 2:23:58.440 the ocean. 2:23:58.600 --> 2:24:02.280 Yeah, kind of that. It's integrated hatchery program. So you're 2:24:02.320 --> 2:24:05.440 taking in wildfish as well as the hatchery fish trained 2:24:05.480 --> 2:24:09.520 to maintain the genetic you know, your genetic integrity. 2:24:09.560 --> 2:24:11.760 And and those are getting back home on their own fins. 2:24:11.760 --> 2:24:13.880 I mean they're going back up to Yeah, they'll later 2:24:14.320 --> 2:24:15.080 make it up on their own. 2:24:15.120 --> 2:24:17.520 Now there's fisheries. Now, there wasn't a false when I 2:24:17.640 --> 2:24:20.560 was in college. There wasn't falseho fisheries in the in 2:24:20.640 --> 2:24:21.240 the Snake River. 2:24:21.320 --> 2:24:23.440 There are how big as a fall chinook there on 2:24:23.520 --> 2:24:24.000 that river. 2:24:24.600 --> 2:24:29.080 Twenty five twenty twenty five pounds twenty to thirty Yeah. Yeah, 2:24:30.440 --> 2:24:33.520 and it's fisheries all the way down as well as 2:24:34.040 --> 2:24:34.680 off the coast. 2:24:35.400 --> 2:24:38.560 Yeah. Yeah, dudes are catching those fish, catching them everywhere. 2:24:39.440 --> 2:24:41.840 What about Soke and Coho, It says I you had 2:24:41.959 --> 2:24:43.040 some reintroductions. 2:24:43.440 --> 2:24:46.680 Yeah, and that was a tribally led effort. Like how 2:24:46.720 --> 2:24:50.360 I had mentioned a lot of the hatchery production being 2:24:50.400 --> 2:24:53.280 in the lower River, which was unnatural. You're just feeding 2:24:53.360 --> 2:24:58.320 your your sport and commercial harvest and totally excluding the 2:24:58.440 --> 2:25:02.280 tribes and everybody inland. So it was we started the 2:25:02.400 --> 2:25:07.959 coho reintroductions back in the nineties and taking juveniles from 2:25:08.000 --> 2:25:11.359 the lower River and taking them back into their tributaries 2:25:11.600 --> 2:25:15.480 like in the Metau and the Wenatchee, the Yakma, and 2:25:16.080 --> 2:25:19.200 that was highly successful and so that was replicated by 2:25:19.200 --> 2:25:24.199 the Nez Perce tribe and it was actually the state 2:25:24.240 --> 2:25:29.000 of Idaho has a law against reintroduction programs, and it 2:25:29.280 --> 2:25:34.200 was by by night that Actually it's our tribal chairman now, 2:25:34.440 --> 2:25:37.400 Gerald Lewis, he worked in fisheries for a number of 2:25:37.520 --> 2:25:39.800 years and it was back when he was in fisheries, 2:25:40.120 --> 2:25:42.400 he drove the truck in the middle of the night 2:25:43.320 --> 2:25:46.600 of taking those coho up to the Nez Perce tribe 2:25:47.040 --> 2:25:51.520 so that they could reintroduce them. It was illegally, yeah, 2:25:52.080 --> 2:25:54.320 so under thread of arrest by. 2:25:54.240 --> 2:25:54.959 The state. 2:25:56.879 --> 2:25:59.520 And because because they don't want to then create like 2:25:59.640 --> 2:26:01.200 new e s a issues for themselves. 2:26:01.320 --> 2:26:05.040 Yeah, we're responsibilities for maintaining and and all that type 2:26:05.080 --> 2:26:05.360 of thing. 2:26:05.680 --> 2:26:12.000 So I don't know, the leveless cynicism unbelievable. Yeah, So 2:26:12.600 --> 2:26:16.600 like don't put some there because then will be obligated 2:26:16.640 --> 2:26:18.920 to like do something to allow them to live. 2:26:20.360 --> 2:26:25.080 So that the cohen reintroductions were highly successful. We brought 2:26:25.360 --> 2:26:27.959 we started out bringing in juveniles and we'd hold them 2:26:28.040 --> 2:26:31.080 in acclamation ponds for a month or so and then 2:26:31.200 --> 2:26:34.280 release them from there. And then as they started returning, 2:26:34.520 --> 2:26:38.160 then we started building things out into a full supplementation 2:26:38.360 --> 2:26:41.920 program where we're getting getting our own brood to spawn 2:26:42.080 --> 2:26:45.560 and all these generations and and then we're still incorporating 2:26:45.600 --> 2:26:49.000 some of the lower river like as needed. But yeah, 2:26:49.080 --> 2:26:52.680 it's almost becoming a self sufficient program. And but also 2:26:53.000 --> 2:26:57.760 you have the the anti hatchery group, but we're leading 2:26:58.080 --> 2:27:02.360 on the genetics side where we're incorporating, you know, trying 2:27:02.400 --> 2:27:05.160 to have that genetic diversity, and we use stocks that 2:27:05.280 --> 2:27:10.480 were like similar to this area and distance and things 2:27:10.600 --> 2:27:13.080 like that. But you know, we're just being mindful of 2:27:13.640 --> 2:27:17.520 the work that we do. So there wouldn't be there 2:27:17.520 --> 2:27:20.800 wouldn't be Coho above Bonneville Dam if it wasn't for 2:27:20.879 --> 2:27:23.680 the efforts of the tribes. And I always credit our 2:27:24.000 --> 2:27:28.160 senior most biologist, Tom Scribner with Yakuma, and he hates 2:27:28.200 --> 2:27:30.720 that I call him out all the time. But that 2:27:30.920 --> 2:27:34.120 was his life's work. He did years and years of 2:27:34.240 --> 2:27:38.279 advocacy and then also fighting with our state co managers 2:27:38.360 --> 2:27:41.320 because they were against it because there was worries because 2:27:42.120 --> 2:27:44.520 you know, coho are more voracious eaters and they were 2:27:44.560 --> 2:27:47.720 worried about them eating the spring chinook. It's like these 2:27:47.840 --> 2:27:51.640 things coexisted for millions of years. It's like we just 2:27:51.720 --> 2:27:54.600 need to get them back and they'll work out their 2:27:54.680 --> 2:27:57.640 areas and where they live and you know, like it 2:27:57.720 --> 2:28:00.320 took us to mess them up, let's help them cover. 2:28:00.920 --> 2:28:04.400 And the same thing with the Sakai reintroduction. You know, 2:28:04.520 --> 2:28:07.800 we were working with the Okanagan Nation Alliance in Canada 2:28:08.400 --> 2:28:14.040 collecting fish at Wanapum Dam, which is just upstream of 2:28:14.080 --> 2:28:17.400 the Snake River because the Snake River Sakai are listed, 2:28:17.560 --> 2:28:23.520 so that's what that has all the ESA restrictions and concerns. 2:28:23.640 --> 2:28:27.480 So we're collecting above the snake and then so we're 2:28:28.000 --> 2:28:32.600 did reintroduction programs into the Yakoma into Lake klee Elam 2:28:35.120 --> 2:28:39.040 and we just completed a passage project at Lake cole 2:28:39.120 --> 2:28:42.680 Elam because that was used as an irrigation reservoir. You know, 2:28:42.879 --> 2:28:44.960 it was checked up and so there was no passage 2:28:45.040 --> 2:28:47.840 and that's how that's how the sakai were extrapated, and 2:28:47.920 --> 2:28:52.640 the tributaries was from irrigation error reclamation. You know, these dams, 2:28:53.240 --> 2:28:58.680 these diversions without passage, no fish screens and dewatering events 2:28:58.760 --> 2:29:01.080 and things like that. So you know, the tribes have 2:29:01.200 --> 2:29:04.800 really been working together with bo R and the local 2:29:04.840 --> 2:29:09.720 irrigation districts to be able to get fish, like how 2:29:09.800 --> 2:29:12.720 can we work together. The Akama Basin Integrated Plan is 2:29:12.800 --> 2:29:16.280 a great success story of that. They got this like 2:29:16.560 --> 2:29:20.600 thirty million dollar fish passage structure at Lake Leelam for 2:29:20.720 --> 2:29:23.640 juveniles to out migrate. They'll still have to truck the 2:29:23.760 --> 2:29:26.520 adults over the dam, but they could go up into 2:29:26.560 --> 2:29:29.280 the tributaries and Spahan, we're in the lake and have 2:29:29.520 --> 2:29:33.080 access to get out. So that's been a huge success story. 2:29:33.160 --> 2:29:36.320 And we've been talking working with the Nez Presh tribe. 2:29:36.560 --> 2:29:40.520 They want to do reintroductions into Lake Wallawa for skei 2:29:40.600 --> 2:29:45.280 as all awesome, Yeah, but that's really complicated because you know, 2:29:45.560 --> 2:29:49.480 like with the ESA listings and what poor shape the 2:29:50.160 --> 2:29:53.320 Snake River Sakai are in. So they're collecting at Bonnaville 2:29:53.360 --> 2:29:56.879 Dam and they actually utilize our genetic technology they collect 2:29:56.920 --> 2:30:00.920 at Bonnaville Dam and then they screen out and you know, 2:30:01.720 --> 2:30:02.240 they could. 2:30:02.080 --> 2:30:04.720 See the kidney. You can screen out the EESA ones 2:30:04.760 --> 2:30:08.880 from the nun Yeah. So like you we can move 2:30:09.040 --> 2:30:11.880 you buddy, you got to stay put, no kid Yeah. 2:30:12.520 --> 2:30:16.400 And I think that's one of the big success stories too, 2:30:16.560 --> 2:30:20.880 is collaboration. I mean through the six sovereigns stuff that 2:30:21.200 --> 2:30:24.200 that Danella was talking about with the other with states 2:30:24.240 --> 2:30:28.720 of Oregon, Washington, the Treaty tribes we work great with 2:30:29.320 --> 2:30:32.440 and at Bonneville. Dan that's an integrated crew that we 2:30:32.560 --> 2:30:35.000 have with the Sea Lion project. It's got people from 2:30:35.160 --> 2:30:40.360 State of Idaho, Oregon, Washington, and Critfic that we have 2:30:40.560 --> 2:30:43.680 the all working together. It's under the same permit and 2:30:43.800 --> 2:30:48.200 it's all jointly done. So from the dark times that 2:30:48.320 --> 2:30:51.840 you talked about earlier, it's it's we're not all the 2:30:51.879 --> 2:30:54.400 way there, but it's better. It's looking it's a lot 2:30:54.480 --> 2:30:57.760 better than when I started. It's it's it's it's improving, 2:30:57.840 --> 2:31:00.600 and it gives you hope that I think, you know, 2:31:00.760 --> 2:31:01.600 it can get better. 2:31:01.959 --> 2:31:03.720 Yeah, that man. 2:31:04.840 --> 2:31:06.840 One of the things I appreciate about the conversation is 2:31:06.840 --> 2:31:10.120 I've always looked at the whole issue being that be 2:31:10.240 --> 2:31:14.160 like I always looked at it like binary be that 2:31:14.280 --> 2:31:19.080 the dam stay and the fish go, or the dams 2:31:19.160 --> 2:31:22.160 go and the fish stay. And it's encouraging to think 2:31:22.200 --> 2:31:24.320 that there could be I mean, as much as it 2:31:24.480 --> 2:31:28.360 is like becomes a very conservation dependent, very expensive, but 2:31:28.560 --> 2:31:32.280 you could see some level of progress, you know, and 2:31:32.400 --> 2:31:34.320 like at least hang on and wait for like a 2:31:34.400 --> 2:31:37.120 better day, you know, like just to have something to save. 2:31:38.120 --> 2:31:38.280 Right. 2:31:39.400 --> 2:31:41.000 I don't know I've mentioned a couple times ready, but 2:31:41.680 --> 2:31:43.920 my brother was the fisheries guy in Alaska. He had 2:31:43.959 --> 2:31:48.840 this really interesting perspective about Alaska versus Alaska versus the 2:31:48.920 --> 2:31:53.640 Lower forty eight. You said that conservation the Lower forty 2:31:53.680 --> 2:31:58.240 eight is it's all recovery. I mean, we're like we're 2:31:58.280 --> 2:31:59.520 in recovery mode. 2:32:00.280 --> 2:32:00.600 Up there. 2:32:00.680 --> 2:32:05.480 They're still in almost like a classification mode. They're still 2:32:05.520 --> 2:32:09.760 trying to go like what's here, right, Like what is here? 2:32:10.720 --> 2:32:13.280 Trying to count things, describe things, get a sense of 2:32:13.360 --> 2:32:15.280 what's there. And down here it's like we just look 2:32:15.320 --> 2:32:18.840 at like what's gone, you know what I mean, how 2:32:18.920 --> 2:32:20.560 we try to fix our mistakes. 2:32:21.840 --> 2:32:25.640 So hard because it's salmon our international issue, right, even 2:32:25.720 --> 2:32:28.080 the harvest of salmon, because that's why we have the 2:32:28.560 --> 2:32:32.400 Pacific Salmon Commission Pacific Salmon Treaty and looking. You know, 2:32:32.520 --> 2:32:36.320 when things really tanked back in the eighties and the 2:32:36.920 --> 2:32:40.160 numbers were in dire straits and in the Columbia Basin, 2:32:40.360 --> 2:32:43.840 and that's when you know, those court cases were happening, 2:32:44.000 --> 2:32:47.200 and our tribal fisheries programs were really being established and 2:32:47.600 --> 2:32:51.119 the tribes started their supplementation efforts. That's when you could 2:32:51.200 --> 2:32:54.720 see the rebound in the in the the curve on 2:32:54.800 --> 2:32:57.840 the graph of when our tribes started doing that that 2:32:57.920 --> 2:32:59.199 way to get us here. 2:32:59.480 --> 2:33:01.480 We haven't even gotten into all that stuff with like 2:33:01.600 --> 2:33:04.720 high seas drift nets and dudes out in almost an 2:33:04.760 --> 2:33:07.240 international waters peeling off American salmon. 2:33:07.360 --> 2:33:08.280 Man like, we need to get. 2:33:08.200 --> 2:33:11.400 Into that stuff in the bycatch of salmon and other 2:33:11.480 --> 2:33:12.400 fisheries is. 2:33:12.959 --> 2:33:15.080 Yeah, And then they go digging into kans of salmon 2:33:15.120 --> 2:33:17.760 and it's full of canned steelhead that they're catching out 2:33:17.840 --> 2:33:18.600 on the high seas. 2:33:18.680 --> 2:33:20.080 You know, it's just like unbelievable. 2:33:20.120 --> 2:33:22.440 Man, big the year the odd years with the high 2:33:22.520 --> 2:33:26.680 pink numbers that's being seen, we're seeing decreased signal in 2:33:26.840 --> 2:33:30.760 chinook and other lower forty eight fish. And you know 2:33:30.879 --> 2:33:34.920 those are Alaska as well as as Japan and some 2:33:35.080 --> 2:33:37.840 of those Asian countries that are putting out a lot 2:33:37.879 --> 2:33:38.520 of pinks. 2:33:38.760 --> 2:33:42.039 So it's into those nets, man, And. 2:33:42.520 --> 2:33:46.400 That's all it's done, just for corporate interest, right. That's 2:33:46.480 --> 2:33:50.520 not anything natural, it's not a natural population, it's not 2:33:50.640 --> 2:33:54.480 a public service. It's these groups putting out all this 2:33:55.160 --> 2:33:59.920 pink catchery production just for this commercial fishery, low value 2:34:00.040 --> 2:34:03.360 commercial fishery in comparison to what they could be having 2:34:03.440 --> 2:34:03.879 in sake. 2:34:04.000 --> 2:34:06.160 I sent Yanni the other day. Do you have that 2:34:06.280 --> 2:34:09.680 text message? Pull up that text message I sent Yannie. 2:34:09.800 --> 2:34:13.400 Some fish price stuff will close out, almost close out 2:34:13.440 --> 2:34:13.600 with this. 2:34:14.040 --> 2:34:15.960 And we can't forget about where to go if you 2:34:16.000 --> 2:34:16.680 want to donate. 2:34:16.840 --> 2:34:20.640 Yeah, but we're talking about just relative value here when 2:34:20.640 --> 2:34:24.160 you're talking about like the pink, like the pink industry. 2:34:24.840 --> 2:34:28.320 Yeah that mm hmm nickel. This is paid at the dock. 2:34:28.879 --> 2:34:33.600 Yeah, Steve and I exchanged at times a lot of texts, 2:34:33.680 --> 2:34:34.320 so it's. 2:34:34.240 --> 2:34:36.840 Taking just a second. I think it was six cents 2:34:37.240 --> 2:34:40.959 six and then compared to like a sake or king. 2:34:41.200 --> 2:34:42.320 Hopefully Yannie can find it. 2:34:43.120 --> 2:34:46.320 There's there's been years that when I grew up fishing, 2:34:46.600 --> 2:34:48.520 we were getting two and a half cents a pound 2:34:49.160 --> 2:34:54.560 for Tooley's on the on the Toby. It's the it's 2:34:54.640 --> 2:34:57.280 a different stock of fish like that runs in the 2:34:57.640 --> 2:35:01.480 lower river. You have upriver brights that farther upstream or 2:35:01.840 --> 2:35:06.280 like th hu Eliott. Yeah, yeah, but two and a 2:35:06.320 --> 2:35:07.280 half cents a pound. 2:35:09.120 --> 2:35:12.880 Yeah, these were overall average prices paid the fisherman in 2:35:12.920 --> 2:35:16.119 twenty twenty five. This is the Alaska Fishing Game Department. 2:35:16.600 --> 2:35:18.920 Chinook took six forty a pound. 2:35:20.480 --> 2:35:22.959 Next down this was paid the fisherman at the docks six. 2:35:24.160 --> 2:35:27.880 Next down the line was Coho at one, Sakka at 2:35:27.920 --> 2:35:32.600 one seventeen. Surprisingly to me, chumps were eighty cents, and 2:35:32.680 --> 2:35:33.800 then the pinks came in. 2:35:33.840 --> 2:35:38.160 At thirty well thirty cents, okay, But like just a 2:35:38.280 --> 2:35:41.199 relative picture the way that the values on these fish 2:35:41.240 --> 2:35:43.080 are perceived, you know, and then like the amount of 2:35:43.240 --> 2:35:45.800 like yeah, the other thing about the man, this is 2:35:45.800 --> 2:35:47.360 such a rich subject. Do you go on and on? 2:35:47.520 --> 2:35:51.480 But like the hat the pink hatchery stuff is you 2:35:51.560 --> 2:35:54.040 think like you think when you're running cattle, when you're 2:35:54.120 --> 2:35:56.280 running cattle and you want to run graze cattle on 2:35:56.360 --> 2:35:59.080 public land, you pay a grazing fee. You have a 2:35:59.160 --> 2:36:03.039 contract and pay raising fee. A cannery runs a pink hatch, 2:36:04.160 --> 2:36:07.880 they're grazing for free. That stuff goes out in the 2:36:07.959 --> 2:36:14.600 open ocean and grazes for free, and then it comes 2:36:14.680 --> 2:36:16.000 back and you sell it for thirty cent you know, 2:36:16.040 --> 2:36:18.320 I mean, you sell it for thirty cents a pound, dude. 2:36:18.360 --> 2:36:19.680 It's competing with wildfish. 2:36:20.280 --> 2:36:22.440 And then compared to the market, I was looking at 2:36:22.600 --> 2:36:26.240 just Pike Place fish prices as of yesterday, and of 2:36:26.320 --> 2:36:29.800 course it's probably be more expensive, but thirty to forty 2:36:29.879 --> 2:36:33.439 pounds for wild dollars chinook. 2:36:33.320 --> 2:36:36.279 Thirty to forty bucks for wild pound pound of wild chinook. 2:36:36.440 --> 2:36:40.920 Yeah, and then that's that was an average. Then Pike 2:36:40.959 --> 2:36:45.200 Place was fifty five for full as Sacy is about 2:36:45.240 --> 2:36:49.959 fifty dollars a pound for full ats and coho is twenty. 2:36:49.680 --> 2:36:52.119 Eight or pink's on her uh. 2:36:52.840 --> 2:36:57.000 No, ste white sturgeon was like average ten to thirty, 2:36:57.240 --> 2:36:59.000 depending upon you know, you. 2:36:59.040 --> 2:36:59.920 Know who else we didn't get to. 2:37:00.560 --> 2:37:04.600 We didn't get the bitching about killer whales, who I 2:37:04.680 --> 2:37:06.720 guess could go into a school of pinks. If there's 2:37:06.720 --> 2:37:08.520 a king in there. They going to that school. It 2:37:08.560 --> 2:37:11.039 could be thousands of pinks and they're gonna grab the king. 2:37:12.879 --> 2:37:17.440 Dude, they know they know the price, Like, yeah, isn't 2:37:17.480 --> 2:37:17.920 that wild. 2:37:18.560 --> 2:37:21.520 They'll they could, they'll sort through, They'll sort through and 2:37:21.600 --> 2:37:24.360 find kings because like that's the good one, that's the 2:37:24.480 --> 2:37:25.640 bad one right there. 2:37:26.000 --> 2:37:28.520 Well, that's like with sea lions, right Doug was talking 2:37:28.560 --> 2:37:32.439 about the stellars that eat a sturgeon. They were primarily 2:37:32.520 --> 2:37:35.640 going after the big females and eating out the bellies. 2:37:35.840 --> 2:37:39.120 Roll yeah, yeah, animals. 2:37:39.440 --> 2:37:42.879 Well, it gives me hope, Like you're your aha moment 2:37:43.000 --> 2:37:45.280 story of seeing those giant fish in that pool. I 2:37:45.360 --> 2:37:47.640 feel like the stuff you guys are doing, if at 2:37:47.680 --> 2:37:51.440 the minimum, you're giving the opportunity for future generations to 2:37:51.560 --> 2:37:55.240 have that moment. Hopefully we can keep the whole thing going. 2:37:55.480 --> 2:37:57.920 And then to think that we could have like what 2:37:58.080 --> 2:38:02.040 Alaska has like literally right here or within a half 2:38:02.040 --> 2:38:04.960 a day's drive where we're sitting right now, and that 2:38:05.120 --> 2:38:08.640 we don't, and that we're not putting more effort into doing. 2:38:08.480 --> 2:38:10.760 It because I've walked across the river around them. 2:38:11.080 --> 2:38:12.000 It's kind of crazy. 2:38:12.240 --> 2:38:15.879 It's the resistance to change and moving beyond the status 2:38:15.959 --> 2:38:18.920 quo of that's the way we've always done things. Like 2:38:19.640 --> 2:38:22.280 you have this old car that's all beat up and 2:38:22.480 --> 2:38:26.240 I'm barely keeping it running, but I refuse to to 2:38:26.360 --> 2:38:26.840 trade it in. 2:38:27.720 --> 2:38:31.080 Well, it's the baseline syndrome too, right. None of us 2:38:31.160 --> 2:38:34.240 here in this room have ever would ever know see, 2:38:34.400 --> 2:38:36.400 have seen or would know what it was like to 2:38:36.480 --> 2:38:38.320 have those kind of fisheries right here. 2:38:39.160 --> 2:38:41.320 Yeah, Like my little kids, like if if we don't 2:38:41.400 --> 2:38:44.000 turn things around on Sam, and my little kids would 2:38:44.000 --> 2:38:44.200 be like. 2:38:44.360 --> 2:38:46.840 Man, twenty twenty five is bitch, and dude, we got 2:38:46.920 --> 2:38:50.440 three kings. Yeah, you never see that now. 2:38:51.760 --> 2:38:52.800 Well, there's a lot of misca. 2:38:53.000 --> 2:38:54.480 That was the good old days, dude. 2:38:55.160 --> 2:38:57.920 There's a lot of misconceptions too. People don't understand that, 2:38:58.120 --> 2:39:01.200 Like what are they complaining about. Like they see those 2:39:01.320 --> 2:39:03.760 reels and those videos of all those fish coming back 2:39:03.800 --> 2:39:07.879 to those pink catcheries, you know, and that's what they're showing. 2:39:08.280 --> 2:39:12.120 That's not what's going on in the in reality and 2:39:12.320 --> 2:39:15.400 having fish coming back to the rivers and the spawning 2:39:15.480 --> 2:39:19.879 grounds and things like that, that's more natural. But they 2:39:20.000 --> 2:39:23.200 see these these outrageous things and think that's not a 2:39:23.240 --> 2:39:27.040 big deal. And there's also a lot of misconception. And 2:39:27.320 --> 2:39:30.360 call it the numbers game, right, they're looking at the 2:39:30.480 --> 2:39:34.800 total number of salmon that passed Bonnaville down. That's kind 2:39:34.840 --> 2:39:38.280 of what the outsiders view is success of the health 2:39:38.360 --> 2:39:41.720 of the river. Like you know, we're around two million now, 2:39:42.200 --> 2:39:44.720 but a lot of that is still lower river hatcheries. 2:39:44.800 --> 2:39:49.640 You have a little white salmon and spring chinook catcheries, 2:39:49.879 --> 2:39:54.760 but where they're not whereas wild wild chinook, wild spring 2:39:54.920 --> 2:39:58.600 chinook in the Upper and mid Columbia, you're only getting 2:39:58.680 --> 2:39:59.359 like a thousand. 2:40:00.120 --> 2:40:03.800 Yeah, I gotcha of that. So you make them. You 2:40:03.800 --> 2:40:05.440 can show what you want to show with the numbers. 2:40:06.120 --> 2:40:12.520 And then also understanding that harvest is limited by those 2:40:12.600 --> 2:40:17.640 weaker stocks because you have ESA restrictions on spring chinook 2:40:17.920 --> 2:40:21.240 all throughout the basin, so you have very little access 2:40:21.360 --> 2:40:25.480 to harvest spring chinook. And you know the numbers are slow, well, 2:40:26.000 --> 2:40:28.160 sea lions are eating most of them before they get 2:40:28.240 --> 2:40:32.080 to us. And then we fight over the what seventeen 2:40:32.160 --> 2:40:36.359 percent harvests that shared between the states and the tribes. 2:40:37.120 --> 2:40:41.240 And then also in the summer, because of the ESA 2:40:41.360 --> 2:40:47.400 listed Sokai concerns and we can't access we can't fish 2:40:47.560 --> 2:40:52.360 those on the successful Okanagan fish or you know Upper 2:40:52.400 --> 2:40:56.160 Columbia fish because of ESA restrictions, and the same thing 2:40:56.280 --> 2:41:01.360 happens in our fall fisheries. We have mesh restriction sizes 2:41:01.480 --> 2:41:09.199 because of b run steelhead limitations. So it's like things 2:41:09.240 --> 2:41:11.560 are great, but like, no, it's not. You have to 2:41:11.600 --> 2:41:14.800 look at the real picture of what's going on throughout 2:41:14.840 --> 2:41:15.320 the basin. 2:41:16.120 --> 2:41:19.080 Well, well that's that, man, We go on all day. 2:41:19.080 --> 2:41:20.600 But this has been great talking to you guys about 2:41:20.640 --> 2:41:23.760 I've learned a ton and I'm just one person. 2:41:23.879 --> 2:41:26.720 We have a ton of great experts on any subject 2:41:26.800 --> 2:41:29.000 you want to touch on, and it would be really 2:41:29.040 --> 2:41:32.560 awesome to you know, like focus more on the CBRI, 2:41:32.920 --> 2:41:36.480 the Columbia Basin Restoration Initiative, and you know, that's what 2:41:36.600 --> 2:41:40.720 we're continuing to work for towards and advocate for to 2:41:41.000 --> 2:41:45.280 get these actions done to continue the success and also 2:41:45.760 --> 2:41:49.440 you know, looking for partnerships of you know, how we 2:41:49.520 --> 2:41:52.560 could work together because you know, the only time we 2:41:52.879 --> 2:41:55.959 make actionable change is when we set aside our differences 2:41:56.080 --> 2:41:59.959 to focus on our commonalities and that's when we connect 2:42:00.120 --> 2:42:03.080 and also connecting as people like how I said about 2:42:03.360 --> 2:42:06.320 you know, salmon. It's the heart of our culture. It's cultural, 2:42:06.920 --> 2:42:10.840 it's spiritual, you know, like and even things don't have 2:42:10.959 --> 2:42:13.360 to be religious to be spiritual. It could be that 2:42:13.600 --> 2:42:16.040 way for you or anybody else. Like I talked to 2:42:16.120 --> 2:42:18.760 a lot of our staff. I shared my aha moment 2:42:18.920 --> 2:42:21.520 of that seeing that fish eight hundred miles away, and 2:42:21.920 --> 2:42:25.320 they've talked about sitting alongside the stream bank and seeing 2:42:25.400 --> 2:42:29.119 that fish jumping to get over this barrier or things 2:42:29.240 --> 2:42:32.360 like that. Like we can all feel that connection if 2:42:32.400 --> 2:42:36.080 we get out there and it's there's you can't put 2:42:36.120 --> 2:42:36.840 a value on that. 2:42:37.720 --> 2:42:41.360 So take a first step. Audience members, if you want 2:42:41.440 --> 2:42:45.520 to donate, can you guys plug your website. I know 2:42:45.600 --> 2:42:47.320 there's a donate tab therea. 2:42:47.360 --> 2:42:50.080 Yeah on our on our web page, the Columbia River 2:42:50.240 --> 2:42:51.600 Inner Tribal Fish Commission. 2:42:51.920 --> 2:42:52.400 It's at. 2:42:53.959 --> 2:42:59.800 Www dot CRYTF dot org. So ce R I t 2:43:00.000 --> 2:43:01.840 e FC dot org. 2:43:03.879 --> 2:43:06.199 All you non Indian fellers out here, these are the fish, 2:43:07.920 --> 2:43:13.200 same old fish. Thanks for coming on, guys, Thank thanks, 2:43:13.320 --> 2:43:13.640 thank you,