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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When

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Speaker 1: I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds,

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Speaker 1: no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer,

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Speaker 1: no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. That's f I R S T

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Speaker 1: L I T E dot com.

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Speaker 2: All right, welcome to the me Eater Podcast.

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Speaker 1: They we're gonna dig into something of great importance that

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Speaker 1: we touched on a bunch of times in the past.

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Speaker 1: Is what in the world happened to and what is

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Speaker 1: going on with the Columbia River and the same runs.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a story that's played out over

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Speaker 1: centuries historically the Columbia.

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Speaker 2: I pulled this from your guys website. The guests. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to introduce a minute.

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Speaker 1: I had always read that the historically the Columbia had

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Speaker 1: runs annual runs of ten to twelve million salmon. I

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Speaker 1: was reena today it could have been some years as

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Speaker 1: high as sixteen million salmon ran the Columbia. Our good

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Speaker 1: old body's Lewis and Clark, who come up every time

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Speaker 1: you're trying to describe something from the old timey days,

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Speaker 1: describe salmon in the Columbia as being inconceivable the numbers

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Speaker 1: they had fish, salmon species running from March to October, steelhead

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Speaker 1: in there all winter. And then, as we'll get into,

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Speaker 1: just a never ending series of mistakes, intentional actions, accidental

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Speaker 1: action have led it to be where it is just

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Speaker 1: small fractions of that small fractions of those numbers running

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Speaker 1: up and down the river. And we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: with a couple of guests today who have been involved

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Speaker 1: in sam and recovery on the Columbia River from an

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Speaker 1: intertribal perspective. So the Columbia River flowed through, how can

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Speaker 1: you guys, I'm leading up to my intro here of

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Speaker 1: you guys, but can you remind me how many miles

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Speaker 1: of river are in the Columbia basin. I think I

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Speaker 1: was reading about to say, I can't remember the number.

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Speaker 3: Well, the Columbia River itself, like where it's coming from

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Speaker 3: Canada is about seven hundred and fifty miles from the ocean,

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Speaker 3: but half of the Columbia's north of Canada. And then

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Speaker 3: you've got all of the major tribs, you know, from

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Speaker 3: the Yakama, the Wenatchee, the Snake, the Wyamat, you know,

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Speaker 3: just all up and down the river. So you're looking

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Speaker 3: at even now in the high water years, half a

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Speaker 3: million cfs have flowed down by Bonnonville Dam.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so half a million cubic feet per second YEP

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Speaker 1: of water flowing through there. And the folks we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk today about tribal efforts to recover fish. The tribes

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Speaker 1: acknowledging that the states just aren't doing it at the

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Speaker 1: speed they would like and with the vision that they

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Speaker 1: would like them to have. The Feds aren't doing it

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Speaker 1: at the speed they would like, and they're not pursuing

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Speaker 1: the vision they would like them to pursue. So increasingly

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Speaker 1: the tribes Native American tribes have been getting involved in this.

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Speaker 2: And we're going to.

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Speaker 1: Speak today with Doug Hatch, who's the deputy manager of

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Speaker 1: the Fishery Science Department of the Columbia River Intertribal Fish Commission,

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Speaker 1: and also Donella Donnella. Donella Miller is the Fishery Science manager.

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Speaker 1: And real quick, before we dig in too much, can

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Speaker 1: you can you tell people what tribes are in inner

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Speaker 1: tribal organization.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we're a consortia. We represent we're a technical arm

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Speaker 4: of of course the Yackamanation, which I'm a tribal member of,

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Speaker 4: and also the Confederated Tribes and bands of the Yu

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Speaker 4: Matilla Indian Reservation, which my grandmother was from, so I'm

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Speaker 4: also part of Matilla as well, but also the Warm

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Speaker 4: Springs Tribe and Oregon and the nez Pers in Idaho, Okay.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, we work with those four tribes on Columbia

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Speaker 4: basin issues and all four you know treaty tribes. We

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Speaker 4: signed treaties with the government in eighteen fifty five to

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Speaker 4: retain our you know, hunting, fishing, and gathering rights throughout

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Speaker 4: our our usual and accustomed areas. And that's really key

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Speaker 4: because you know, we seated land to the to the

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Speaker 4: government in exchange for the set boundaries of the reservation

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Speaker 4: and also to hunt, fish and gather in perpetuity throughout

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Speaker 4: our you know, our natural areas.

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Speaker 1: And that and then that right is infringed by the

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Speaker 1: fact that then the people you signed the treaty with

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Speaker 1: went ahead and destroyed the fishery.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's really key. The work that we do is,

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Speaker 4: you know, those rights mean nothing if there's no fish

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Speaker 4: to catch. The right isn't just to dip our nets

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Speaker 4: in empty waters. It's actual catch fish. And there's language

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Speaker 4: in the treaty that talks about our ability to maintain

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Speaker 4: a modest living and people can support themselves on it anymore.

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Speaker 4: Our people unfortunately live in poverty up and down the

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Speaker 4: Columbia River at treaty access sites that aren't meant to

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Speaker 4: be lived in. It's more or less boat ramps, and

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Speaker 4: you know, they don't have water power, just a bathroom.

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Speaker 4: But it's not definitely not what we signed up for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So we're gonna tell that story first. I

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Speaker 1: gotta I want to do what day? When did the

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Speaker 1: thing drop that we made in Texas?

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Speaker 2: When is it? Because I explained this all big time.

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Speaker 5: In text already dropped, but we're trying to hit it

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Speaker 5: multiple times.

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Speaker 1: Just being cognizant of the fact that So we record

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Speaker 1: a showdown in Texas talk about taint and meat, skunks,

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Speaker 1: nutsign a cat in that we explained that there's if

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Speaker 1: you subscribe to the show, you're gonna see If you

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Speaker 1: subscribe to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna see some changes coming up.

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Speaker 1: In March nine, So starting is it March nine, that's

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Speaker 1: what that's gonna happen. Yeah, starting in March nine, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna start seeing every week you're gonna see two Meat

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Speaker 1: Eater podcasts drops. The regular Monday thing that you subscribe

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Speaker 1: to you now stays the same, and that's like the

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Speaker 1: interview show. So that would be like what we're doing

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Speaker 1: right here, right now, we're sitting around with tribal fisheries

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Speaker 1: managers having an interview with them about their area of expertise.

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Speaker 2: That's like the.

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Speaker 1: Interview portion of the show, and that will always drop

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Speaker 1: at the same time. In addition to that, there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a weekly news show, news and commentary drop. As

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Speaker 1: I explained, it's like Spencer's concept. We cover our news,

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Speaker 1: your news, and the news on the news show. Okay,

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Speaker 1: three kinds of news that will drop sometime during the week.

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Speaker 1: It'll vary to when it comes out. The folks you

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Speaker 1: know and love, and the kind of material you know

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Speaker 1: and love from Radio Live, that stuff will move on

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Speaker 1: to this news show. Radio Live won't be like a

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Speaker 1: set There won't be a live thing anymore, and it

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Speaker 1: won't occur at a set time anymore. There'll be the

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Speaker 1: news and commentary show which comes out. When it comes out,

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Speaker 1: stay tuned for all that there'll be some new art work.

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Speaker 1: You'll know what happened because there'll be a new artwork.

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Speaker 1: That'll be the best way you'll know that that happens.

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Speaker 1: You'll be like, oh, a new artwork? Must this thing happening?

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Speaker 5: Please subscribe on YouTube and wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 4: That helps a lot.

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Speaker 1: Uh, you know what word I learned today from you

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Speaker 1: guys website. I'm gonna do a trivia test. Don't don't

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Speaker 1: don't you know you guys notice we don't tell anybody.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna trivia test these guys. So I was on

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Speaker 1: the Columbia River Inner Tribal Fish Commission site today.

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Speaker 2: What is the word?

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Speaker 1: I'm like Spenser here, what is the word for a

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Speaker 1: fish that spawns once and dies? It's in the same

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Speaker 1: vein of like anadromous catagromus. It's like that flavor of

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Speaker 1: a word. But it's me you spawn once and die.

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Speaker 5: I've heard it like a scientific name like die.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're being clever like diet.

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Speaker 2: I thought he's being clever too.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think at first. I didn't think he's being

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Speaker 1: clever than I thought he's being clever. It's like, it's

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Speaker 1: that flavor.

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Speaker 2: What is that Latin? I don't know. Is it Latin? Diadronous,

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Speaker 2: catatrouts Oh.

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Speaker 6: No, I should look that up.

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Speaker 7: Monogamous, No, no, I know I've heard it before, but

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Speaker 7: I don't I.

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Speaker 1: Know there was a word you ready, None of you

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Speaker 1: guys got it. I've never even heard the damn word.

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Speaker 5: Catatromist comes from Greek roots.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's Greek. This is probably Greek sel paris.

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Speaker 8: So it's not like those words really at all.

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Speaker 1: When flavor, I mean like a foreign language sounding deal.

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Speaker 1: You know, I guarantee it's greed. I never heard that

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Speaker 1: word in my note You know, you got like a

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Speaker 1: notes function on your phone. I keep words that I

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Speaker 1: need to incorporate into my vocabulary on a little list like.

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Speaker 8: So those but those are only the fish that after

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Speaker 8: they sponsor, not atlantic head, not ocean run.

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Speaker 5: Cuts, semil paris. I should know this because I took Latin.

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Speaker 5: It does have Latin roots. It combines semol meaning once

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Speaker 5: or a single time, and pario meaning to give birth

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Speaker 5: or produce.

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Speaker 2: Another thing. I learned.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go way back deep before you get to this.

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Speaker 1: Nothing I learned on your site. The kind blew my

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Speaker 1: mind is those dams, the dams on the Columbia system.

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Speaker 2: Did a way to think about it.

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Speaker 1: When baby salmon, when Smoltz are coming back down the river,

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Speaker 1: it's basically you lose seven to fifteen percent of them

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Speaker 1: die at each dam. Wow, just an incredible way to

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Speaker 1: think about it.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, can you and how many are there?

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Speaker 2: How many dams are no? Idea? Well, there's four they

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Speaker 2: can stay up to close your mic.

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Speaker 4: Oh, there's four on the the lower part of the

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Speaker 4: Mainstem Columbia, and then you have the four in the

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Speaker 4: lower Snake River. And then there's also privately owned dams

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Speaker 4: that are owned by the Mid Columbia Public Utility districts.

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Speaker 4: So there's four four right in the mid Sea. So

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Speaker 4: there's eight on the main Stem Columbia before you get

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Speaker 4: to Roosevelt, right or well the Grand Cooley.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Chief Joseph is impassable and then Grand Cooley is

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Speaker 3: upstream of that. But yeah, if you're going to the

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Speaker 3: headwaters of the of the Columbia, which would be the

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Speaker 3: Matau River, if you're up there, you're going to go

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Speaker 3: over nine dams on the main stem. More, if you

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Speaker 3: go on up the tributaries, if you go up the Snake,

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Speaker 3: you're going over eight dams before you ever get to

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Speaker 3: the Salmon River, the Naha or any of those big

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Speaker 3: rivers in the Snake.

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Speaker 2: Eight times fifteen, that's a big number.

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Speaker 3: It's big.

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Speaker 6: Let's say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then there's mortality coming upstream too, you know,

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Speaker 3: not just every adult just because there's a fish ladder.

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Speaker 3: You got to find that fish ladder and you got

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Speaker 3: to negotiate it, you got to get over it, you

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Speaker 3: got to avoid the predators. You've got lots of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Can can you guys lay out a little bit, like.

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Speaker 1: What did the system look like before the first major impact,

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Speaker 1: before the first major negative impact came to, which I

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Speaker 1: guess was the canary fish canaries? Like what did like

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Speaker 1: just try to help people visualize, Like nowadays people think

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Speaker 1: about salmon runs and it's like Alaska, right, when you

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Speaker 1: think about salmon runs, it's Bristol Bay, right. This was

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Speaker 1: a bigger salmon run than those, The biggest salmon run,

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Speaker 1: the biggest salmon run in the country, the biggest salmon

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Speaker 1: run in.

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Speaker 2: The world was the Columbia. Yeah, you wouldn't have been

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Speaker 2: that you had to get.

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Speaker 1: You wouldn't go to Alaska to see big salmon runs,

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Speaker 1: like the Columbia was the big salmon run? Like what

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Speaker 1: did that look like? Like what fish were there? You know,

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Speaker 1: to what quantity? Is it even possible? No one scientifically

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Speaker 1: measured it, but like what did it look like?

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Speaker 3: It was?

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Speaker 4: Well, that's why Solilo falls, right, that's historically that was

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Speaker 4: the major trading hub of the Pacific Northwest. You know

224
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Speaker 4: that people came from you know, the the Midwest to

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Speaker 4: trade Buffalo and the ocean area to trade salt for salmon.

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Speaker 2: We had.

227
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Speaker 4: It was even obsidian and tool making and things like that.

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Speaker 4: It was inconceivable. And that's why the over exploitation happened

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Speaker 4: because you know, like you said, you read the old

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Speaker 4: timey descriptions and they thought it was an inexhaustible resource,

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Speaker 4: that there was so much that people were able to

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Speaker 4: gather what they needed. And that's that's what sustained life

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Speaker 4: in our region for millennia. And it was just you know,

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Speaker 4: the the trading and the tribal people living amongst the

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Speaker 4: land is you know, in physically a part of nature,

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Speaker 4: and you know, it's just a it was a completely

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Speaker 4: different way of thinking of you know, like exploitation and

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Speaker 4: things like that, but that I don't know that That's

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Speaker 4: why it seems so that thought process was different from

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Speaker 4: the way that we lived, as you know, taking and

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Speaker 4: being a part of the system versus coming in Like

242
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Speaker 4: how you said, the first major negative impact would have

243
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Speaker 4: been the fish wheels and the and even the sainting

244
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Speaker 4: and things like that, and so those types of things happened.

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Speaker 4: And you know, when you look at different everything is

246
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Speaker 4: always viewed as a resource and how can that benefit man?

247
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Speaker 4: And you know, you hear about the salmon, but even

248
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Speaker 4: further down the road, the salmon kind of became a

249
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Speaker 4: problem to development in the of the Columbia River system

250
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Speaker 4: when they were looking at the placement of the hydro system,

251
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Speaker 4: because then they would have to incorporate fish ladders and

252
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Speaker 4: deal with the salmon. It would have been easier if

253
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Speaker 4: they did away from with all these natural runs and

254
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Speaker 4: we could retain salmon, but you retain it in the

255
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Speaker 4: lower river below the dams, so they didn't have to

256
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Speaker 4: do all these extra steps to maintain the stocks. That's

257
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Speaker 4: why you see a lot of those hatcheries are below

258
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Speaker 4: Bonnaville Dam, and it's unnatural, you know, spring Chinook and

259
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,120
Speaker 4: Koho and things like that, and those hatteries still operate,

260
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Speaker 4: but the tribes have been working to try to restore

261
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Speaker 4: and bring them back into their natal areas throughout and

262
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Speaker 4: even to me, I think those numbers that you read

263
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Speaker 4: are actually kind of low, the.

264
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Speaker 2: Ten to sixteen million.

265
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Speaker 4: Airess, because even today you could get you know, there's

266
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Speaker 4: been a lot of work in the Okanagan Basin and

267
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Speaker 4: Lake Okanagan in Canada where they've we've seen ski returns

268
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Speaker 4: up to eight hundred thousand adult sakai returning past Bonneville.

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Speaker 4: And just to think that's just one lake and there's

270
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Speaker 4: all these other block areas and the tributaries and if

271
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Speaker 4: today we could get back almost a million of just

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Speaker 4: one stock, that and a lot of that work was done.

273
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Speaker 4: It was exhaustive estimate, and they looked at a lot

274
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Speaker 4: of the cannery records and what they were able to process,

275
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Speaker 4: but I think there was more waste than there were

276
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Speaker 4: fish actual process. You see those old pictures where you

277
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Speaker 4: know you have salmon four feet deep and they're just

278
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Speaker 4: working those cannory lines, Well, when that obviously went bad,

279
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Speaker 4: every day they just shove it out and bring in more.

280
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Speaker 4: So there was because you yeah, yeah, that's the way

281
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Speaker 4: it was viewed. And just kind of going back to

282
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Speaker 4: what you what we were talking about the fifteen percent

283
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Speaker 4: at every project. That's only the impact of what that

284
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Speaker 4: dam itself causes, like fish going through the turbines or

285
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Speaker 4: you know, like in the spill way they get disoriented

286
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Speaker 4: and things like that. But that's not adding in all

287
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Speaker 4: of the other factors that those dams create, the reservoirs

288
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Speaker 4: and the slack water water quality and the predation and

289
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 4: all those types of things. So the impacts are huge,

290
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Speaker 4: and you're right, you add it up, there shouldn't be

291
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Speaker 4: any more fish left. It's just amazing that that we

292
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Speaker 4: still have fish coming back.

293
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I's clarifying that percentage.

294
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Speaker 1: I was making a joke about fifteen times eight, but

295
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Speaker 1: the estimate is seven to fifteen percent, so it's not all.

296
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Speaker 2: You know, fifteen percent is the high end of what

297
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:22,639
Speaker 2: the estimated loss.

298
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Speaker 3: Is just direct dam mortality, but that doesn't take into

299
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Speaker 3: account the slack water it creates, the habitat that creates

300
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Speaker 3: for pacivorous predators to eat the fish. They get disoriented

301
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Speaker 3: when they go through the dam, birds pick them off.

302
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Speaker 3: So all of that predation part isn't part of that

303
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Speaker 3: damn mortality. That's just the direct mortality from the dam

304
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Speaker 3: and kind of quickly, I guess historically by the numbers,

305
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Speaker 3: it was right now, you've got a spring chinook run, right,

306
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Speaker 3: that's like eighty to one hundred and fifty thousand fish,

307
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Speaker 3: and then it drops way off for the summers down

308
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Speaker 3: to ten or twenty thousand. And then in the fall

309
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Speaker 3: that's the big run now, and it's gonna run a

310
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Speaker 3: couple hundred thousand fish, you know, you know, a really

311
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Speaker 3: good years half million or something. And historically it was

312
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Speaker 3: it was a big curve, it was a big mountain.

313
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Speaker 3: That summer chinook run. That's so low that was the peak.

314
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Speaker 3: Oh so Harvard, all of these impacts have split it

315
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Speaker 3: into these three different groups of chinook. And so you've

316
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Speaker 3: got the fall chinook, which seems like which is the

317
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Speaker 3: biggest now, But historically that was the tail. You know,

318
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Speaker 3: it was those summer run and so and and that's

319
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Speaker 3: what they were going after the early canneries and stuff

320
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Speaker 3: was the most abundant, you know, group, and so they

321
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 3: they made those big impacts on that, and that was

322
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Speaker 3: the June hogs. That included all of the really big

323
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Speaker 3: fish that went up, you know, into the Lower Snake

324
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Speaker 3: River up in the Upper Columbia. You know, the fish

325
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Speaker 3: that were one hundred and thirty, one hundred and forty pounds.

326
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Speaker 2: Man, jeez, that's a big fish.

327
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Speaker 8: It's like, yeah, yeah, we catch those like eight ten

328
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,160
Speaker 8: pounders in southeast.

329
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,120
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, they gotta be twenty eight where we fish,

330
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 2: they gotta be twenty eight inches. Your eyes like, sweet,

331
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 2: he's twenty.

332
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Speaker 1: And like you go into the bars, you know, you

333
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 1: go into old bars, you know, and you know, I

334
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:19,120
Speaker 1: see these kings you know from whatever, yep, half century ago,

335
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,159
Speaker 1: and you're like, dude, are they you know, are they

336
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 1: there anymore?

337
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,960
Speaker 2: These one hundred plus pound fish? But just like there's not,

338
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 2: and there's fewer and viewer and viewer and viewer fewer

339
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 2: and fewer.

340
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Speaker 3: We do we do sampling up Bonneville, damn. So we

341
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 3: we sample all of the fish runs coming through Bonneville,

342
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 3: and we'll get a text from from from the texts

343
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 3: that are sampling. It's like, here's a really big one.

344
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 3: And a big one now is you know, sixty seventy pounders? Ok? Yeah,

345
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 3: those are pretty rare and it used to not be

346
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,040
Speaker 3: even you know, a mere thirty five years ago. When

347
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,199
Speaker 3: I started, it was we'd get a lot more of

348
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 3: those than we do now. So definitely the size of

349
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 3: mature or the size of the adult fish has gone down.

350
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 4: The largest I've caught was sixty three pounds, and that

351
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:16,440
Speaker 4: seemed like a monster that Gilnetting, yeah, and our fall fishery,

352
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,680
Speaker 4: but I had it, really had an aha moment back

353
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Speaker 4: when so I think I was eighteen as a technician

354
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 4: working in the Metaw River. We're doing spring chinook spawning

355
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,919
Speaker 4: ground surveys and it was getting later in the season,

356
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,199
Speaker 4: and so there was this portion of the mainstem that

357
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 4: would float on the on the Mettaw River and there's

358
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 4: it runs into a wall, there's a big pool, and

359
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,640
Speaker 4: we floated our raft down and it was just there

360
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 4: was a group of probably about thirty big june hogs summerschanook.

361
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 4: They were huge. Of course you get the magnification of

362
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 4: the water, but they were still huge. And we just

363
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 4: floated around in there and watched them. They were just

364
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,880
Speaker 4: holding up, waiting to head up to spawn. But it's

365
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,160
Speaker 4: just so amazing to see those things. And you were

366
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 4: talking about how many miles inland. Also, when I worked

367
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 4: up in the Metal, where I think I looked at it.

368
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 4: I looked on the map to see it was like

369
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 4: eight hundred and forty miles or something.

370
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,120
Speaker 2: Well, they had come that far in this.

371
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Speaker 4: Little bitty tributary to the Metal where we were doing

372
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 4: a spawning ground survey, and I was like, just like,

373
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 4: because we had to hike in and then walk down

374
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 4: the creek, is like, how did this fish even make

375
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 4: it back here? It's amazing. And then we were walking

376
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 4: down another section and there's portions that get dewatered in

377
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,400
Speaker 4: the fall, and we found a couple of springs nook

378
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 4: in this pocket by this boulder, and so my coworker

379
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 4: he takes off one side of his hip waiter and

380
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 4: then we fill it with water and put that fish

381
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 4: in there, and we just ran it like a couple.

382
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 4: He was stranded.

383
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was pulling off because irrigation draw.

384
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, So we ran it back to so he could

385
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 4: reconnect with the river. It's like, you can't make it

386
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 4: this far.

387
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 6: And not live, O man.

388
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: Really.

389
00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the things you run into being out there,

390
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 4: it's just that that's what really helps people's connection to understand,

391
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 4: and you know, just thinking and realizing how much they've

392
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 4: gone through to get back.

393
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you a little bit explain the process, I

394
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: guess just the evolved thinking that that led to the

395
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 1: creation of a tribal organization that would get involved in

396
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: fisheries management. I know, like in some notes Krint had

397
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 1: from pre interviews, she talked about that there was a

398
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 1: growing frustration that the States and the Feds weren't moving

399
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: the way, weren't moving this the way you wanted to move,

400
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: and that the goal was set in a way that

401
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 1: that the tribes weren't comfortable with the goal like say,

402
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 1: like basically the goal being let's save the fish from

403
00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: genetic extinction. Yeah, and that wasn't that that doesn't satisfy

404
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: native peoples on the river.

405
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 4: No, Unfortunately, a lot of the fish are managed on

406
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 4: ESA levels, right, that's holding things on the brink of extinction.

407
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 4: And that's one of the issues with the ESA itself. Well,

408
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 4: for one, it's not proactive, and two they have protections

409
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 4: when things get really bad to save them from extinction.

410
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 4: But there's nothing in the act that's binding its recommendations

411
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 4: towards recovery. There's no requirements to recover species so it's

412
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 4: just the minimal amount possible that you could do to

413
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 4: keep this from this species from going extinct. And you

414
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 4: know that's not acceptable, you know as society, not just

415
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 4: with tribes, of allowing species to go extinct or you know,

416
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 4: we don't want museum relics that in the river that

417
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 4: we look at. You know, we want to be able

418
00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 4: to enjoy the bounty and continue our way alife, you know,

419
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 4: kind of getting what we signed up for in the treaties.

420
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 4: And that's where the really you know, sustainable, healthy and

421
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 4: sustainable populations that were able to harvest because you know,

422
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 4: we've talked about treaty rights and our ability to harvest,

423
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 4: but that's a shared right that we have with you know,

424
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 4: with the public right the treaties. There's been two big

425
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 4: court cases that kind of led to the formation of

426
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 4: our organization and really the formation of the tribes taking

427
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 4: a leading role. First was usb Oregon, and that was

428
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: really the tribes being established as a co manager of

429
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 4: the resource because it was a treaty right, so it's

430
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 4: our you know, we have the obligation to ensure that

431
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 4: it persists for future generations. And then several years later

432
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 4: we had usv. Washington that made the determination that the

433
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 4: tribes were entitled to fifty percent of the harvestable run,

434
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 4: not just fifty percent of the total, the fifty percent

435
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 4: of the harvestable run. And so we have the you

436
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 4: know that unfortunately, you know, I've heard others. You know,

437
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 4: what I've learned is unfortunately we operate operate in gavel

438
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 4: the gavel fish management because you talk about gravel, the

439
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 4: gravel like right, you're inclusive of the entire life cycle.

440
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 4: But unfortunately we work in gavel the gavel because it's

441
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 4: the real Yeah, and that's I saw that. You have

442
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 4: a show out that talks about the recent litigation on

443
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 4: the hydro operations of the on the Snake River dam,

444
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 4: and that's kind of been pulled in really kind of

445
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 4: unfortunately became just a breach campaign. But it's to us,

446
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 4: it's a lot more than that. Because with our with

447
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 4: our culture, everything the importance, everything has a purpose, a

448
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 4: place and a purpose. And so we really have that

449
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 4: holistic management aspect, and you know, we don't really have

450
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 4: the silos that a lot of the state and federal

451
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 4: agencies work under. That's why you know, we have people

452
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 4: that want to work for tribes that really care about,

453
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 4: you know, the resource and things like that, because everything

454
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,959
Speaker 4: that we do is so broad, and you know, like

455
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 4: I'm wearing the sturgeon hat, and you know, like all

456
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 4: species are important to us, not just the salmon, but sturgeon,

457
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 4: lam prey, even you know, trout and bridge lip suckers

458
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 4: and all of those things that are a part of nature.

459
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 4: But you know, we hold all of those things sacred

460
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 4: as our first foods. And so that's the way we

461
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 4: what we bring to the table in our management aspect,

462
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 4: because you know, we're not about esa level. We don't

463
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 4: want museum real li likes. We went healthy and sustainable,

464
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 4: and we would love more than to have work ourselves

465
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 4: out of a job. That's what I've heard one of

466
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 4: my other bosses say. But just you know, the tools

467
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 4: that we have to work with along the way, like

468
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 4: you know, hatch reproduction. I know there's a big a

469
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 4: lot of issues between hatchy versus wild and the tribes

470
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 4: do do a lot of supplementation hatter reproduction, but we

471
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 4: try to bring in non conventional methods. It's not just

472
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: fitch factories pumping out numbers. We're you know, using we

473
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 4: have a genetics lab, a state of the art genetics

474
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 4: lab that we have in cooperation with the University of

475
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 4: Idaho that's located in southern Idaho and Hagerman. So we're

476
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 4: kind of leading the way on the genetics side. And

477
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 4: then also the way we implement our hatcheries is not

478
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 4: just releasing them all directly from the hatchery, but taking

479
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 4: them out to acclamation sites so they could return to

480
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,239
Speaker 4: areas that have suitable spawning habitat and things like that.

481
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 4: And as Doug mentioned, we do all the monitoring at

482
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 4: Bonneville Dam of all the stocks that are coming through.

483
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 4: We're able to take that information and which also aids

484
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 4: in harvest management, and just our work is so broad

485
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 4: and diverse.

486
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 2: We have.

487
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 4: Ocean you know, estuary program that we've acquired about five

488
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 4: years ago now, so we're really looking, you know, like

489
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 4: I said, gravel to gravel and bringing in all aspects,

490
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 4: and you know the tribes have I'd say we're a

491
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 4: lot less risk averse, I think because we take that

492
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 4: approach to be careful to do things. It's like we

493
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 4: don't want to study things to death. You know, things

494
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 4: get wrapped up in ten ten plus year studies before

495
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 4: you could actually even do anything. It's like, and you know, myself,

496
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 4: being the fish science manager, that was kind of I

497
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 4: kind of thought twice about taking this job. It's like,

498
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 4: I don't want to be just a research scientist. But

499
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 4: the approach that the tribes have been taking is like

500
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 4: applied research. You're taking actionable measures and measuring the success

501
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 4: of those actions, and you know, you use what's working

502
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 4: and advance that. And yeah, I think that's the biggest thing.

503
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 4: And you know, we've really grown a lot. Like I

504
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 4: mentioned those two court cases usv. Washington, usv. Oregon where

505
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 4: you know, the tribes sued the states over harvest and

506
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 4: you know, co management and things like that. But we've

507
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 4: came a lot a long ways, and even just recently

508
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 4: during that litigation on the Snake River, the hydro Operations

509
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 4: litigation and form the six Sovereigns that's with our four

510
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 4: tribes and the states of Washington and Oregon and come together,

511
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 4: and that's how we entered into a stay in litigation.

512
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 4: It was meant to be a ten year stay with

513
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 4: a set of commitments over the first five years. Then

514
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 4: there was a check in and then it could have

515
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 4: rolled over to another five years and we were just

516
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 4: getting started rolling in that and it was bringing commitments

517
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 4: to the basin and also giving us a voice to

518
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 4: look for appropriations. It's not like we weren't trying to

519
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,959
Speaker 4: upend energy prices or anything like that. It's just like, Okay,

520
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 4: can you pay the true cost of the cheap electricity

521
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: that you're benefiting from? And it's not really grandma's electricity

522
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 4: or the common person, it's corporate, right. It's industrial customers

523
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 4: that have really the huge benefit of our cheap power

524
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 4: in the region. And that's why we're talking about fish

525
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 4: in the Columbia Basin, but really a global global thing, right,

526
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 4: because of all of the industry that our region attracts

527
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 4: because of the cheap power. Like back in the eighties

528
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 4: and whatnot, we had the all of the big aluminum

529
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 4: smelters where we have none of the natural resources to

530
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 4: make aluminum, but they were all there because it was

531
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 4: so cheap to process because of that cheap power. And

532
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 4: then now we're seeing the new onslaught of that is

533
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 4: data centers. We have data centers a.

534
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: Lot all that electricity.

535
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and water. That's the bad thing is like there's

536
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 4: always extraction and then we're already like operating in a deficit,

537
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: but yet we're planning for a future that we don't

538
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 4: even have the resources for. And that's why the tribes

539
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 4: really bring that to the table of like who's looking

540
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 4: out for the resource and what's best for the environment.

541
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 4: And that's why we talk about salmon being a keystone

542
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 4: species because it's it's good for everyone. What's good for

543
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 4: the salmon is good for the environment and for the

544
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,959
Speaker 4: people and us looking out for that in that holistic manner.

545
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: I got three observations I want to hit you with.

546
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: One is you don't need to take the sound. But

547
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: you know, like people like to look at sort of

548
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: singular things that had global impacts. And there's this argument

549
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: that the reason we won World War two is because

550
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: the dams on the Columbia system, because we could out

551
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: we could produce aircraft, we had enough power to smelt

552
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: enough aluminum and we out aircraft the Germans. And so

553
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, whether that's true or not, it always like

554
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: sticks in my head, like thinking about what a mistake

555
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: those ultimately, what a mistake those dams were, And I

556
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: think about that question and always like it's just a

557
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: complication in there. We had on second observations we had

558
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: on RFK Junior when he was running for president, and

559
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: he went and took over Health and Human Services under

560
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: the Trump administration.

561
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: But when he was he.

562
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: Was on he's talking about his career and litigate environmental litigation,

563
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: and he said, when you look at these big, these

564
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: big corporations, and they think there are these like free

565
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 1: enterprise organizations, he says, they never ever pay the cost.

566
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: They don't acknowledge that they don't pay the cost. But

567
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: in producing that electricity or producing those metals, they never

568
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: had to account to the American people of what they

569
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: took from you to make those things. Like, no one's

570
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: ever build them for the cost of an annual run

571
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: of twelve million salmon. No one's paid that, you know.

572
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: He's like, they don't admit it, but they're subsidized. They're

573
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: subsidized by what they take from everybody in terms of

574
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: fish or in terms of anything clean water, Like, has

575
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: anyone ever.

576
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: Build them for do you know what I mean? Does

577
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 2: anyone build them for what the clean water should be worth?

578
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: They'll never pay that shit.

579
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, we have mitigation goals of the impacts of the

580
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 4: hydrosystem that have never been met. Fifty sixty years and

581
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 4: they've never met them. By millions. I think we're barely

582
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 4: even at half of what we should have been getting

583
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 4: sixty years ago. Imagine how much that would add up

584
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 4: to what the tab is. The way that gets wipe

585
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 4: clean is they're working toward interim goals. Fifty years later,

586
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 4: we're still just working towards interim goals. And even today,

587
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 4: the interim goals that we're working towards towards restoration that

588
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 4: we actually have the teeth to push on is five

589
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 4: to eight million, and that was determined by the Northwest

590
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 4: Power and Planning Council. Of that is the direct impacts

591
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 4: of this hydrosystem is the five to eight million, and

592
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 4: then that's when then the other the other losses are

593
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 4: due to irrigation and the tributaries and other types of

594
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 4: urbanization and things like that. So we're we'll never get

595
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 4: fully get back what we had, but you know, I

596
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 4: know we could do better because and a lot of

597
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 4: that too is just people's resistance to change, and you

598
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 4: know that that's the way we've always done things, and

599
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 4: the status quo continues and until they I don't know,

600
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,479
Speaker 4: it's hard, and like you said, you will never get back.

601
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 4: We don't pay the truth cost for power, and a

602
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 4: lot of this stuff is for export foreign companies that

603
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 4: come in and exploit our resources. And you still have

604
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 4: communities that you know, they were promised jobs, but that's

605
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 4: only during the construction and what's ongoing is minimal. Like

606
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 4: even with Google and the City of the Dallas. You know,

607
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 4: they came in and updated their their waste waste treatment plant,

608
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 4: but then they built a data center and then two

609
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 4: more data centers, and now they're overwhelming that infrastructure that

610
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 4: they promised, and they were taking groundwater and so they

611
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 4: have communities just south of town that are coming up

612
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 4: with dry wells and things like that. And now they

613
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 4: want to buy land in the National Forest to be

614
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 4: able to create a reservoir to extract more water.

615
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: And then, like Sam Altman and Elon Musk, they'll never

616
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: they'll you know, he'll emerge as the world's first trillionaire

617
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 1: and there will never be a reckoning. There will never

618
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: be a reckoning for the cost of what they did.

619
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: Never.

620
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was funny. We applied for a grant from

621
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 4: Google because they have this they want to be green

622
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 4: by twenty thirty or something, and then we have a

623
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 4: delta project where the Clicktet River comes into the Columbia

624
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 4: that needs some major work. It's never had any maintenance,

625
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 4: Like you could practically walk halfway across the Columbia because

626
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 4: that sandbar is so big because you don't have the

627
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 4: freshets that that flush it out. And that's one of

628
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 4: our big issues that we'll work on. It's predation, hot

629
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 4: spots and warm water and things like that. But we

630
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 4: applied for that Google grant. It's just downstream, just across

631
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 4: the river. We didn't even make it past the pre

632
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 4: proposal phase. And when we asked why, like why wouldn't

633
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 4: this qualify it has good merit and everything, they gave

634
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 4: us AI response, Yeah.

635
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: So you paid for your own response.

636
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: I want to get in like one of the things

637
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: that I want to talk about, what we want to

638
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 1: talk about. I was like, what can like what are

639
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: things that can be done?

640
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: You know?

641
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 1: And I want to get into that, like like sea

642
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: lions and all that. But there's a thing I want

643
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: to there's a third thing I wanted to bring up.

644
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: And I'm almost I'm embarrassed to tell you this, but

645
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: all these guys here can vouch me on this.

646
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 2: It's like.

647
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: I was raised in the Great Lakes, Okay, and I

648
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: was raised to know that like the real villains in

649
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: fisheries management, it's always the natives.

650
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: Because people can't reconcile. They're like, they're like, how could

651
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: it be that.

652
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: They're conducting commercial fishing, you know, so they run Like

653
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: in the Great Lakes, natals will run fish traps for whitefish,

654
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: which white people don't. I mean, like generally speaking, white

655
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: people don't fish whitefish. Generally some do, but it's not

656
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: like a top tier fish. People don't travel like to

657
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: go there to fish whitefish. People want the non native

658
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: shut or they like large miles of native fish all

659
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: the salmon.

660
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 2: Introduce salmon.

661
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: But you'll go and be like, the reason you didn't

662
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: catch anything today is because of natives, right, And you'll

663
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: hear it so much from guys in the Pacific Northwest,

664
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: where they'll be, like you mentioned earlier, having a gillnet.

665
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 1: They'll be like, that's the problem with the fishery, and

666
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: it's like, but that's what you're raised to believe that

667
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: because it's always like a blame game and you look

668
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: at but bahom it, they fished here for twenty thousand,

669
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: ten thousand, sixteen, like thousands of years supported to people

670
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: on the fishery. Then European culture, like euro American culture,

671
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: came in and destroyed the fishery. The things we did

672
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: destroy the fishery. But now you look and there's some

673
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: native people catching some fishing and that, and that's who's like,

674
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: that's who's the blame. It's pervas I don't even know

675
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: if you realize how pervasive that thinking is, because it's

676
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: like they it can't click, like how could they be

677
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: commercial fishing when I can only keep one fish or

678
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: I can't keep any fish, but they can commercial fish.

679
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: That's who killed all the fish. It's out there, like

680
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: that perspective is just out there.

681
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I've lived it, you know, like growing up

682
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 4: fishing on the Columbia, you do get a lot of

683
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 4: a lot of hate. People come out and yell at

684
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 4: you and and things like that. And we've been shot

685
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 4: at at night in the dark. We were out and

686
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 4: I called the cops. The cops didn't even show up.

687
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 4: You could see the muzzle flash. It sounded like a

688
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,479
Speaker 4: twenty two and we were like, what the he We're

689
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 4: a good thing. We were a ways from shore in

690
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 4: that kind of like a bay area in the nine

691
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 4: to one to one operator, well, can you see what

692
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 4: they're wearing? And I'm like, no, it's dark. I see

693
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 4: a muzzle flash and can you let us know? And

694
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 4: it's like we got down and had to drive out

695
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 4: of there. And another time I always remember there was

696
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 4: an older gentleman. He followed us because you know, we're

697
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 4: tied off of the bank. It was two and a

698
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 4: half hours. He stood on the shore and yelled and

699
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 4: cussed at us, like I called the cops, like I

700
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 4: think he might need to.

701
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 2: I don't want this.

702
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 4: Guy to have a heart attack. Yeah, that's how it

703
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 4: worked up. He was and you know, like chucking rocks

704
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 4: at us and things like that.

705
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: Because people can't picture the long history. They like they

706
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: looked through the dam. They looked through the dam or

707
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: past the dam, and they see you. And that's the problem,

708
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? They're like they can't picture.

709
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: What happened.

710
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, yeah, I guess we're so visible. Right.

711
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 4: There's there's there's plenty of non native gillnet fisheries that

712
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 4: are happening in the Lower River and a lot in

713
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 4: the ocean. But it's just we're visible.

714
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: And that's like, if it wasn't for that little handful

715
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: of fish, everything can be better. It's like, no, dude,

716
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be better if you're not talking about the problem.

717
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 2: You don't want to talk about the real problem. Yeah,

718
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 2: you don't want to talk about the real problem.

719
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

720
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 4: The glass half full thing is I think it's awesome

721
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 4: that people are starting to realize, like, you know, the

722
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,240
Speaker 4: work that we do, it benefits everybody, not just the tribes.

723
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 4: It's everybody. And so like I've been at places like

724
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 4: like a trade show or whatever, and then you know,

725
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 4: somebody will come up look at my tag, like I

726
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 4: want to shake your hand. You know, they're you know,

727
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 4: part of the they're a fishing guide or something like that,

728
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 4: and they'll say, we wouldn't have salmon if it weren't

729
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 4: for the Indians, And you.

730
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: Know, people see that connection.

731
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, a little bit of that. So there, you know,

732
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 4: we're starting to realize and and you know, just the

733
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 4: outreach and the partnerships that we have and that the

734
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 4: benefits that we bring is for all and not just us.

735
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

736
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 3: So it's crazy. I mean we have commissioners that had

737
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 3: spent time in federal prison for fishing, exercising their right

738
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 3: to their treaty reserved right to fish and they were arrested, sentenced,

739
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: spent time in prison for fishing. So it's it's a

740
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 3: crazy deal. I'm from Idaho. I saw this the same

741
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 3: thing you're talking about, Steve with the salmon what happened

742
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 3: in the salmon fisheries in the Columbia. But you know

743
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 3: that led to those court decisions and then that formed,

744
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 3: you know, out of that the tribal co management that

745
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 3: formed the Columbia River Inner Tribal Fish Commission in nineteen

746
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 3: seventy seven, and so this the tribe started building staff

747
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 3: from then and now we're like at one hundred and

748
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 3: fifty to one hundred and seventy people at Critic in Portland.

749
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 3: Each of the four member tribes, the the the Yakama,

750
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 3: Warm Springs, You, Matila, and Nesperse combined, we have like

751
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: seven hundred and fifty people working on fish recovery.

752
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: And I think that's.

753
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: Where we get our the tribes get their power is

754
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 3: that they're co managers and they got a singular focus

755
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 3: on it's the fish Commission, right, It's not the it's

756
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 3: not the fish and Irrigation Commission. It's not we don't

757
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 3: have the things that the states are. You know, they've

758
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 3: got to look after all these other interests and this

759
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 3: is singularly focused on fish recovery. So we're not what

760
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 3: we want to do. We'll provide more fish to our constituents.

761
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 3: Are you know the tribal fishermen that are out there

762
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 3: exercising their treaty right and they're entitled to half of

763
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 3: that harvestable fish, and however they take them. They they

764
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: decide how they're going to take them, and states decide

765
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 3: how much they're going to split their fifty percent into

766
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 3: sport fishing versus commercial fishing, however they want to divide it,

767
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 3: and the tribes don't you know, they're party to that,

768
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 3: but they don't tell the states how they're going to

769
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 3: allocate their fisheries. And you know, kind of should go

770
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 3: the same way for the tribes. This is this is

771
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 3: a big conservation effort and they run hatcheries about ten

772
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 3: hatches that are run by the tribes to get the

773
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 3: money for it. And they don't catch all those fish.

774
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 3: I mean, those fish are going out to the public.

775
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 3: Everybody's catching them from here to the Gulf of Alaska.

776
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 4: Well, we're kind of end users on some of that.

777
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 4: There's some stocks of fish like the klick Atat, the

778
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 4: majority of those are caught in Alaska and by you know,

779
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 4: the other ocean fisheries along the West coast, and you know,

780
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 4: we have a pie chart and then it shows all

781
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 4: of the take and the tribal harvest is just this

782
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 4: little bitty sliver.

783
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 2: That's the people putting them in and doing all the.

784
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 4: Work to the habitat restoration, because the work that we

785
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 4: do goes beyond just fish and that's what you know,

786
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 4: like being in management now of like getting people to

787
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 4: understand like the things that we do, like you know,

788
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 4: energy production is fish issues because of the hydrosystem, and

789
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 4: habitat restoration and even roads like we have our habitat

790
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 4: staff that they've worked with the DOT to like move

791
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 4: a highway and and you know, putting in better fish

792
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 4: passage and just you know, reconnecting rivers which helps you know,

793
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 4: floods and flood management, flood risk and then also especially

794
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 4: in the face of climate change and how things are changing,

795
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 4: like you were just talking about the weather here, you know,

796
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 4: we're seeing that we're you know potentially in our three

797
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 4: years of drought and this year isn't isn't looking much better,

798
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 4: and so we had definitely have our work cut out

799
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 4: for And it goes a long ways, and like Doug

800
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 4: was saying about how the tribes choose to allocate the

801
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 4: other thing that our jobs are so great to me,

802
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 4: and why it means so much is on the cultural side.

803
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 4: You know how much that that these things are natural

804
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 4: resources and salmon we refer to ourselves as salmon people,

805
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 4: you know, and it's cultural preservation and that that's really

806
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 4: what because I grew up in a traditional home with

807
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 4: you know, like my mother and my grandparents and practicing

808
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 4: our you know, hunting, fishing, gathering, and you know, our

809
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 4: tribal religion and all of the things that go along

810
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 4: with that. All of our ceremonies are centered around our

811
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 4: natural resources, around the salmon and things like that, and

812
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 4: you know, sadly we're losing that. And then that's how

813
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 4: you know, people get led astray. You know, you have

814
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 4: you know the effects of drugs and alcohol and stuff.

815
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 4: But if we really had those things that for us

816
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 4: to be able to continue, I think would be better off.

817
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 4: And well I know we would because you know, living

818
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 4: in those communities and it's like we're lost. We're still

819
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 4: lost because we were displaced by the construction of the

820
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 4: dams on the river. We weren't relocated or subsidized or anything.

821
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 4: It's just they came and spray painted on the on

822
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 4: the houses like at Slilo Falls, took an inventory and

823
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 4: that was it. We've never we've never received our Columbia

824
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,760
Speaker 4: River housing. And you know, for the villages that were flooded,

825
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 4: it's just like your house is gone, you have.

826
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: They've painted the ones that were going to be underwater.

827
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, just took an inventory and then people had no

828
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 4: choice but to move to the reservation or drown.

829
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

830
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. And it's funny even me realizing that now,

831
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 4: Like you know, I was born on the reservation and

832
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 4: Topish and I lived at my grandparents house. But I

833
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 4: was even as just as an adult a couple of

834
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 4: years ago, I realized, like that wasn't my grandpa's home.

835
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 4: My grandpa was born, born and raised in at Salilo

836
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 4: and he went to the war. It's so funny. Like

837
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 4: my grandpa's older sister, she used to tell us this story,

838
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 4: and even as an older lady, she would cry about

839
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 4: it. It still gets to me. She was born with cataracts,

840
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 4: so she was legally blind and so she couldn't help

841
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 4: do all the work. So she took care of my grandpa.

842
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 4: And she said, one day, Salilo, the government, the military, police, everything,

843
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 4: they just pulled in with cattle trucks and they took

844
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 4: the children by force and took them to a boarding school.

845
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,479
Speaker 4: And she said people were beaten, arrested, And she said

846
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 4: that she held on to him and was dragged across

847
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 4: the ground, crying, no, don't take him as just a baby,

848
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 4: and she cried as an adult that she said, if

849
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 4: I could have just held them a little longer, maybe

850
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 4: they would have gave up.

851
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 2: Then he went on to fight in the war.

852
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was four years old, taken to the boarding

853
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 4: school in Warm Springs, Oregon. He didn't get to come

854
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 4: home for two years, and that was only because they

855
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 4: were moving them to the boarding school at Fort Simcoe,

856
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 4: which is on the Yakama Reservation. And then he was

857
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 4: there through like elementary school, and then he got shipped

858
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 4: to Chamaua, which is in Oregon. That's a high school,

859
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 4: you know, boarding school, high school. He graduated from there

860
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 4: when he was seventeen and then he enlisted in the

861
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:46,959
Speaker 4: Navy and fought in World War Two.

862
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: You kidding me? Yeah, and his home now sits underwater.

863
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,919
Speaker 4: That's the home that he came back to from the war.

864
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I was talking about, the con

865
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: inflicks between like white dudes at fish and the perspective

866
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 1: that native people's are taking fish. It's like everybody's fighting

867
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: over crumbs. In some regions, everybody's fighting over crumbs and

868
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: they don't even know what happened. Like if it's bread crumbs,

869
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: they don't know what happened.

870
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 2: To the loaf of bread.

871
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: There's you know what I mean, it's just gone and

872
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: now they're going to like fight for crumbs. And one

873
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: of the ways that that like fighting for crumbs and

874
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,439
Speaker 1: it's it's I guess it's important because if once those

875
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: crumbs are gone, everything's gone. You know, to think about

876
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: like in terms of fish, right they if we lose

877
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: the fish, if you lose all the memory of the

878
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: fish and all the runs and all the historic areas,

879
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: it's less that you can build up someday when you

880
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: get it back together. But what turned me on to

881
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 1: even wanting to talk to you guys is this idea

882
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 1: and Heather, my friend Heather Duville sent me some links

883
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 1: about it was was like the sea lion issue, and

884
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that for a minute, or

885
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: have you guys explained the sea line issue for a

886
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: minute just to sort of demonstrate this idea of that

887
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: to fix the problem is like impossible, seemingly impossible damn removal.

888
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: It's so hard, and so you.

889
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: Got to look like, well, that's what would really like

890
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: there's these huge things that would occur and you could

891
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: slowly rebuild the whole thing, but in the meantime you

892
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: got to like fight for crumbs. And it's even gotten

893
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: what we're fighting for crumbs with sea lions. Can you

894
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: talk about that issue a bit, like how sea lions

895
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: play into this thing?

896
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure, So sea lions were heavily managed in the

897
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 3: late eighteen hundreds and then from like nineteen fifteen or

898
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 3: so to nineteen seventy into Columbia. There's a bounty on

899
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 3: sea lions bounty and a sea lion hunter. So the

900
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 3: Oregon Fish Commission hired a guy that would shoot sea

901
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 3: lions and cut their ears off and then get paid

902
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 3: by how many sea lions he took care of.

903
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 6: And that was specifically to protect the salmon room.

904
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 3: Protect the salmon exactly. So that was the management that

905
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 3: went on. And in that era of the early seventies

906
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 3: when all of the environmental laws got passed, you know,

907
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 3: you had the Environmental Protection Act, the Clean Air Act,

908
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 3: Marine Mammal Protection Act is passed in seventy two, and

909
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 3: marine mammals were in terrible shape. I mean it was

910
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 3: really necessary. California sea lions were around twenty twenty five

911
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 3: thousand coastwide, so it's managed as a single stock. It

912
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 3: ranges from Baja California up to Lower BC. So that

913
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 3: stock was twenty or twenty five thousand animals. Now there's

914
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 3: close to three hundred thousand animals and it's at caring capacity.

915
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 3: So the Marine Mammal Protection Act protected marine mammals. If

916
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 3: you were a marine mammals.

917
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 2: That can't protect effectively man.

918
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and super successful, right, But what wasn't part of

919
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 3: the all in and you know you had uh, sea otters, whales,

920
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 3: all kinds of polar bears, all kinds of things that

921
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 3: are super depressed, and there wasn't any thought put into management.

922
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 3: You know, it's like we're going to lose them. We

923
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 3: need to protect them. And it worked really really well

924
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 3: on some populations like California sea lions. I mean they're

925
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,320
Speaker 3: way past recovered. They're at carrying capacity. It's the classic

926
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 3: S curve. It's plateaued. We're at at carraning capacity for

927
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 3: sea lions coast wide.

928
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 2: Is there is there any talk a dlisting?

929
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 3: Oh, they're not well. See, it's different exactly. So if

930
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: you're a marine, mamma, you're protected. Period.

931
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 2: We've talked. We've talked about there's no management.

932
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 3: There's no management provision at all.

933
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: We've talked about this a bunch of times in different

934
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,399
Speaker 1: management things. We're talking about the other day. I can't

935
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: remember what and what context, but ways in which something

936
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: gets so bad you can't picture it getting better, and

937
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: then you draft regulation like that like the wild hoor

938
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: always point out the Wildhorse and Borrow Protection Act. Things

939
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: get so bad you draft regulation because you can't picture

940
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 1: the future ramifications, and then you wind up laying and

941
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: you're like, damn man, we should have thought of that.

942
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 8: Yeah. It's like it's like the sea otters up on

943
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 8: Pow you know that have exploded.

944
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: People like, well, they'll never be abundant, why even make

945
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: a provision for abundance.

946
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean it's just hard to see over

947
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 3: the horizon, right, I mean you see what's there and

948
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 3: it's like it couldn't happen. It gives you hope though

949
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 3: for salmon, Right, maybe maybe we can do this.

950
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 2: But then, what's a good point. Man? With the Ballard

951
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 2: locks up.

952
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 3: You know, the the inlet or the outlet of Lake

953
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 3: Washington in the in the eighties, all of a sudden,

954
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,439
Speaker 3: sea lions started showing up at the Ballard locks there

955
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 3: in Herschel if you remember that, there's these particular California

956
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 3: sea lions started praying on the steel Head run going

957
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 3: into the Ballard locks.

958
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: But they figured it out.

959
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 3: They figured it out. Yeah, and you've got this growing population.

960
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 3: They're expanding right to different places where they where they

961
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 3: really haven't been in years and years because there's no management,

962
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 3: and they they're decimating the winter steel Heead run in

963
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 3: Lake Washington.

964
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 2: Well, that triggered legislation.

965
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 3: Then to finally amend the Marine Mental Protection Act, and

966
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 3: they finally got that done in ninety four and it

967
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 3: was Section one twenty that they put into the act.

968
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 3: So this was management it's only on sea lions, and

969
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 3: it's that they have to be individually identifiable and they

970
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 3: have to be shown to have a significant negative impact

971
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 3: on listed salmon populations. And if you can meet that

972
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 3: criteria and you have a permit, you can remove that

973
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 3: sea lion.

974
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 8: So it was like, we know this one's a bad egg.

975
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 3: We got to get rid of him, right, and how

976
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 3: do you know, how do you know what that sea

977
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 3: line is? Well, you got to catch him, and you

978
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 3: got to put a brand on him, and you've got

979
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 3: to have an observer there that sees him eating a fish.

980
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,439
Speaker 3: Then you got to get then you got to trap

981
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 3: him again and euthanize him, you know. And so it's

982
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 3: very tough. And that was the one was not successful.

983
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,240
Speaker 3: At the Ballard Locks. The still a population when extinct

984
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:34,800
Speaker 3: before really before the legislation was passed extinct, Yeah they're gone.

985
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 3: So then Bonneville Dams could put yeah, yeah it's gone.

986
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 3: And now there's actually a current problem another problem which

987
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 3: is soak run in Lake Washington and it's going down

988
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 3: that same that same round, and the only thing to

989
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 3: manage there is this section one twenty. So they would

990
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 3: have to to get you know, uh, they'd have to

991
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 3: submit an application to to National Marine Fishery Service to

992
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,720
Speaker 3: get a permit through this one twenty.

993
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's all to do with the ballard locks.

994
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:07,280
Speaker 2: That's best, not even the Columbia.

995
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 3: That's not the Columbia.

996
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: Because in the Columbia system, I don't know this is true.

997
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: I was reading the sea lions take more fish than humans. Yeah,

998
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 1: where are they doing that? Because I mean they're not

999
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: getting past dams, right.

1000
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 3: So what happened in about two thousand, Uh, we started

1001
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 3: seeing sea lions at Bonnville Dam, at the tail race

1002
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 3: of Bonville Dam, and it was just a few how

1003
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,439
Speaker 3: far up the river is that? One hundred and forty

1004
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 3: five miles?

1005
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 2: Wow, those suns of bitches swim that far the ocean.

1006
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I've got all kinds of stories. We've trapped,

1007
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 3: we've radio tracked them, and they will they'll go back

1008
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 3: to Astoria and back upstream two or three times in

1009
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 3: a year. It takes them just a couple of days.

1010
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 2: Are you serious?

1011
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 3: There they are?

1012
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 2: They're they're pretty remarkable animals. One hundred and forty miles

1013
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 2: up the river. Yeah, dude, anymal lick of salt?

1014
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1015
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 2: No, no, Well then this problem. Once these animals.

1016
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 3: Saw, hey, this is this is the buffet, right, Because

1017
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 3: you've got this concentration of fish at the tail race.

1018
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:13,959
Speaker 3: They're trying to find the sea ladder or the fish

1019
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 3: ladder entrances, and so they're congregating. You get a collection

1020
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 3: of fish, and the sea lions find that and it's

1021
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 3: like this is great. They come back every year, they

1022
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 3: bring their buddies. They become habituated with it, and they

1023
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 3: start taking out a whole bunch of fish. So then

1024
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 3: the corp of engineers who runs.

1025
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 2: The dam, I gotta I gotta back up on that.

1026
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 2: This is an unanswerable question.

1027
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: A sea lion, like a sea lion, goes way to

1028
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 1: hel up the river, like a pioneer sea lion, because

1029
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: way up the river he's like, holy smokes, this is

1030
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: the promised land, right, and he goes back down at

1031
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: some point.

1032
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 2: No one will know.

1033
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: No one can answer this. How how is it conveyed?

1034
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: Like how does it convey to another sea lion?

1035
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Where Billy was. Honey bees

1036
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 2: have that deal. Honey bees have that deal. When they

1037
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 2: come back and they have they have like a thing

1038
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 2: they do. People call it a dance and they don't,

1039
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 2: you know, they don't perceive it as a dance. I'm sure, but.

1040
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: Honey bees come back and they have a movement pattern

1041
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 1: that says, I'm into it, heavy duty piling that way.

1042
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 8: Couldn't it just be like a generation Like it's like

1043
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 8: generational learning, like.

1044
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: Your kids offspring, Yeah, you bring offspring.

1045
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, you bring your mate. Yeah, then you bring your offspring.

1046
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, because your mate's like, what are they doing?

1047
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: I a film follow them just like it's so hard

1048
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: to like imagine by the mechanism by which you come

1049
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 1: back and then there's more. But yeah, like you just

1050
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: bring your offspring than some generations down the road. Everybody

1051
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: knows what's the honey pot.

1052
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 3: These these sea lions that go to Bonneville Dam are

1053
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 3: like the big sea lions that have been recorded, so

1054
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 3: a California sea lione. And it's only males. So the

1055
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 3: biology really is the female state. They stay down in

1056
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 3: the rookeries that are mainly in the in the Channel

1057
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 3: islands in California, so the off Santa Barbara. So that's

1058
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 3: where the females stay and they don't venture out of there.

1059
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 3: They stay very close to those islands.

1060
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: The males that are going one hundred and forty miles

1061
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 1: up the Columbia are breeding with females in the Channel Islands.

1062
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 2: Amazing.

1063
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 3: Huh yeah, wow, yeah, So what it is.

1064
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 8: It's like me telling I found this really good hunting spot.

1065
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 8: You want to come and check it out with me?

1066
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 2: You can't, but you can't talk though, but.

1067
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 8: Obviously they talk.

1068
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 3: So there's photos of them at the rookeries, like on

1069
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 3: sam Miguill Island where there's a male sea lion, male

1070
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 3: sea lion, and then all of a sudden there's this

1071
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 3: gigantic male sea lion. Oh the brand on him. He

1072
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 3: was a monoville. Really. Oh yeah, we have animals that

1073
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 3: we had captured, branded and then recaptured two months I

1074
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 3: think it was two months later, a month and a

1075
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 3: half later, and it gained four hundred pounds.

1076
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 7: Whoa, that's a lot of salmon.

1077
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a lot of fish, and they do have

1078
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 3: So this is the spring of the year. California sea

1079
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 3: lions arrive at Bonneville early April, and then by the

1080
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 3: end of May they leave and they go because then

1081
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 3: it's it's time to go to the breeding grounds. So

1082
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 3: they leave the system and the stellar sea lions that

1083
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 3: are there now, which is a newer story. They also

1084
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 3: leave the system by the end of May, and then

1085
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,919
Speaker 3: the California sea lions show up back up the next

1086
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 3: the next April.

1087
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 2: Okay, what are they feeding on specifically when they get

1088
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: there that time of year.

1089
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 3: At Bonneville Spring Chinook? Yeah, spring Chinook is the big

1090
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 3: that's the big one, and a little bit of There's

1091
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 3: probably some steel head around as well, but it's primarily

1092
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 3: primarily spring Chinook. They also eat sturgeon that lower the

1093
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:03,919
Speaker 3: Columbia River. The lower Columbia sturgeon population has really gone

1094
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 3: down and a lot of those would come up in

1095
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 3: a big congregating area would be the tail race of Bonneville,

1096
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 3: and they just got decimated by sea lions.

1097
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 8: So they don't No, this is like a two part question.

1098
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 8: Those sea lions don't have any impact on like non

1099
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 8: native game fish that are in there now, like walleye

1100
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 8: and small mouth And then what kind of impact are

1101
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 8: the walleye and small mouth bass having on salmon as well?

1102
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.

1103
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 3: They're opportunistic feeders, right, So whatever is the most about it,

1104
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 3: that's what they're gonna eat. And a sea lion that's

1105
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 3: at the ocean is going to have a really diverse diet,

1106
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 3: and then the further up river they go, the more

1107
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 3: salmon centric their diet is. And when they get to Bonneville,

1108
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 3: it's they're eating depending on time, they're eating salmon, steelhead primarily,

1109
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 3: they're eating sturgeon now and then, and then they're eating

1110
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 3: some lamprey as well. And that's really it. We we

1111
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 3: see a few other things. You'll see sucker, maybe an

1112
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 3: occasional walleye or whatever.

1113
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 8: But do you that you guys view that like walleye

1114
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 8: and smallmouth as a big problem for salmon or is.

1115
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 9: It more like larger predators like sea lions, way and

1116
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 9: smallmouth or a problem for sure, and it's probably a

1117
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 9: bigger problem upstream of Bonneville.

1118
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 4: Cut in the reservoirs.

1119
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1120
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: The thing with the sea lion issue that I hadn't

1121
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,439
Speaker 1: really put the thought of before, But I mean, that's

1122
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: almost that's almost a dam problem, Like the dam is

1123
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 1: creating the fishery for the sea lions, yep, because it's

1124
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 1: creating a holding pen form where they can't get.

1125
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 3: Past right right. And and like you brought up Lewis

1126
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 3: and Clark when they went through Salilo they they talk

1127
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 3: about seeing foca. Well they'd never seen a sea lion,

1128
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 3: so they thought it was a seal. That was what

1129
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 3: they called seals. Oh, so they were okay, they ran

1130
01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:58,919
Speaker 3: into the way up the hell so they ran into

1131
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,440
Speaker 3: them there and they were in October, right late September,

1132
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 3: early October at Soalilo.

1133
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 2: And.

1134
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 3: They shot one but they were but they weren't able

1135
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 3: to collect it. So they were trying to document it

1136
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 3: and stuff.

1137
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 2: But so they had historically used the resource.

1138
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, so our tribal members are certain that they came

1139
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 3: up there in the fishery. They took care of the

1140
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 3: of the problem. The sea lions didn't stay long as

1141
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 3: a competitor there.

1142
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 2: Through the archaeological stuff.

1143
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 3: That they've done, they do find sea lion bones, but

1144
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 3: not in huge numbers. So they probably had hunts that

1145
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 3: would go down to get sea lions occasionally or trade

1146
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 3: or something. But there isn't It isn't like salmon bones

1147
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 3: that you just see everywhere.

1148
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 2: So it wasn't a.

1149
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 3: Nowhere near as important as like salmon or something.

1150
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 8: Like the competition factor when you've got fifteen million salmon,

1151
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 8: like there's room for the sea lions to take exactly yeah,

1152
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 8: you know, yeah.

1153
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 2: You say the stellars are coming up there too, They're

1154
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:05,479
Speaker 2: coming from the north. Yeah.

1155
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 3: So, so as the plot thickens and the story goes on,

1156
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 3: by the states of Oregon and Washington put in for

1157
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 3: this one to twenty permit to remove animals at Bonneville.

1158
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 2: About the animal rights people love that shit.

1159
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 3: It was it was a challenge, yeah, and they got it.

1160
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 3: They got to permit in eight and that was after

1161
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 3: documenting the presence of these animals for a long time,

1162
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 3: and they're how many animals are there, how many fish

1163
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 3: are they eating, how many days are they staying there,

1164
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 3: all of that stuff. All that information was necessary to

1165
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 3: get the permit. As soon as they got the permit,

1166
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 3: then Stellar seed so they got to permit to remove

1167
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 3: California Sea lions. And then two years later Stellar sea

1168
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 3: lions are in bigger numbers at Bonneville than California Sea lions.

1169
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 3: And what had happened. Stellars are gigantic, Stellar male and

1170
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 3: again it's males only, and they'll go they'll go a ton.

1171
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 8: Can you for people who don't know the difference, can

1172
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,200
Speaker 8: you explain, like where the stellars are coming from and

1173
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 8: versus the California.

1174
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 5: Want.

1175
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, So California sea lions range from British Columbia to

1176
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 3: southern part of Baja and the rookeries are primarily in

1177
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 3: Baja and along California. And then you got a couple

1178
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 3: of little places at California or along Oregon coast, but

1179
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 3: that's it. Stellar sea lions are more northern, so they

1180
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 3: will range down into California, but they'll go up into

1181
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 3: British Columbia, probably up into Alaska. And you have them,

1182
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 3: and you haven't broke into two stocks. This is the

1183
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,959
Speaker 3: Eastern stock, which is like the one hundred and forty

1184
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 3: fourth latitude. Anything that's east of the one hundred and

1185
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:47,160
Speaker 3: forty fourth degree latitude is the Eastern stock is stellar

1186
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 3: sea lions. Those are the ones that we're getting at Bonneville.

1187
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 3: To the west of that are the ones that are.

1188
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 2: Up in.

1189
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 3: Southeast Alaska off the Illusions and then further up.

1190
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 2: So those dudes aren't calling all the way down to

1191
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 2: the Columbia.

1192
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:03,720
Speaker 3: No, they're not, and they're not in very good shape.

1193
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 3: They're they're listed at they're a listed species. Those Western

1194
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 3: stock the Eastern rock that the Eastern stock, I'll just

1195
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 3: think of that rock the Eastern stock was listed as

1196
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 3: threatened and then we're delisted by twenty thirteen, twenty twelve thirteen.

1197
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:27,919
Speaker 3: So that was why they You couldn't even if even

1198
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:29,959
Speaker 3: if they'd have been showing up at Bonneville, that would

1199
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 3: have been on the permit. We never states never would

1200
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 3: have got a permit to remove them because they were listed.

1201
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 3: Now they're now they're unlisted and they are part of

1202
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 3: the removal program.

1203
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 2: Now, oh, I want to get to that program.

1204
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: I got one that little technical question you mentioned earlier,

1205
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,439
Speaker 1: catching them and branding them yep, he explaining that catching

1206
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 1: them how and branding them how?

1207
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the way we catch them is a trap.

1208
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 3: That's a dock. It's like a sixteen by sixteen square

1209
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 3: foot dock with chain link fence around it, a big

1210
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 3: chain link fan, and then like a gate that's on

1211
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 3: a guillotine type thing and you can hold it up

1212
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 3: with an electronic device to trigger so we can remotely

1213
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 3: drop that gate. You wait for sea lions to get

1214
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 3: on that track. No, so they just haul out, so

1215
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 3: they want a place to rest, and so you're looking

1216
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 3: for places for them to haul out, and so that's

1217
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 3: the that's part of the trap. Is you gotta you

1218
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 3: gotta set these traps where they've been hauling out where

1219
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 3: you think you can get them to use, and then

1220
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 3: they get accustomed to it and they'll haul out and

1221
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 3: then you'll drop the drop the trap, and then we

1222
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 3: have a barge with these transfer cages. You go up

1223
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 3: against it, against that trap, open the doors, run them

1224
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:45,679
Speaker 3: into that transfer cage.

1225
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:48,599
Speaker 2: He probably, Yeah, how do they react when you walk

1226
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 2: up to him?

1227
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:49,640
Speaker 5: So?

1228
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 3: Stellar sea lions can be pretty ornery. They don't, Yeah,

1229
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 3: they don't take to it real well. California sea lions

1230
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 3: are pretty pretty docile. They will, they'll move around. You

1231
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 3: could get in there with a piece of plywood in

1232
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 3: front and you could kind of hurt them, but nobody

1233
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 3: would do that with a Stellar sea lion right there.

1234
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 3: They're big. I mean, it's a two thousand pound animal

1235
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 3: that's pissed. In fact, we're taught now we put these arrays.

1236
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:19,760
Speaker 3: So we take these sixteen by sixteen traps and we

1237
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:22,880
Speaker 3: put three of them together. A couple of times we

1238
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 3: had single traps and you'd get three or four or

1239
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 3: five Stellar sea lions in there, and then they'd start

1240
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 3: doing the WWF and they'd roll the trap over so, yeah,

1241
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 3: they're they're big.

1242
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:39,679
Speaker 2: And then you branded them with a cattle brand. Yeah

1243
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 2: what's the brand?

1244
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,720
Speaker 3: Uh so a ladder up there at c and then

1245
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 3: a number different locations. There's branding programs at different places.

1246
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 3: And the states used the state of Oregon used to

1247
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 3: brand at Astoria. So there's there's animals from there, there's

1248
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 3: you know, all these different places where studies have been done.

1249
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 3: They have kind of a coding system. Where do you

1250
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 3: hit them on the hip, right on the back, across

1251
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 3: the back? How long do they live?

1252
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 8: Like are you seeing the same ones.

1253
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 3: Year after year after year after right? So adult these

1254
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 3: are these are mature adults that we see primarily. We

1255
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,680
Speaker 3: do see occasionally a few smaller sea lions now, but

1256
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:23,320
Speaker 3: they'll live. They can live, you know, like in captivity

1257
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 3: they might live to be in their twenties, but they'll

1258
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:28,759
Speaker 3: probably in the wild maybe fifteen.

1259
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 1: And how many like at peak spring Chinook run, how

1260
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: many are in that dam or at the foot of

1261
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 1: that dam?

1262
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 2: How many sea lions?

1263
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:41,679
Speaker 3: So from the observation program that the corp of Engineers does,

1264
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 3: the highest observed consumption was ten thousand fish that they

1265
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,679
Speaker 3: saw that they documented being eaten.

1266
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,599
Speaker 2: There in a tail race, and what does that mean

1267
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:54,559
Speaker 2: over how much time.

1268
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:57,920
Speaker 3: That's over the spring, So that's April through mid.

1269
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:00,240
Speaker 2: Mid May to little they'll see ten thousand.

1270
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 3: And that's cherry pick and that's the top that's the

1271
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:07,120
Speaker 3: top number. But that were represented almost five percent of

1272
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,720
Speaker 3: the spring chinook run that was going over the dam.

1273
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:12,679
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're losing five percent to sea lions.

1274
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's within this quarter of a mile that

1275
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 3: you can see from the face of the dam and

1276
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:19,440
Speaker 3: do the observations.

1277
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 5: UH.

1278
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:23,719
Speaker 3: National Marine Fishery Service has done studies in the Lower

1279
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,400
Speaker 3: River where they put pit tags in them, so that's

1280
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 3: you know, that's the way we track salmon in the

1281
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 3: Columbia and it's basically the same things that you getting

1282
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 3: your dog UH to track them. And there's a huge

1283
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 3: program in the Columbia where they these pit tags go

1284
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:45,559
Speaker 3: over antennas. It activates the antenna and records the numbers,

1285
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,840
Speaker 3: so they're all individually numbered, so we know any any

1286
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 3: salmon that we've put a tag and we know by

1287
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 3: by individual and at all of the dam ladders, like

1288
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:58,599
Speaker 3: at Bonneville, we get have pit tag detectors, so when

1289
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,559
Speaker 3: they crossed the dam, we we know it. So they

1290
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 3: captured these by gilmetting in the lower river down by Astoria.

1291
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:09,200
Speaker 3: National Maune Fishery Service would capture these fish, put pit

1292
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 3: tags in them this is spring chinook, and then release

1293
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 3: those fish and also took genetic samples and with the

1294
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 3: genetic samples, we could figure out what their origin was,

1295
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 3: so you could subtract off any fish that were going

1296
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 3: to lower river tributaries. Also, harvest is highly regulated and

1297
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:29,240
Speaker 3: we know what the harvest estimates are for each week,

1298
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 3: so subtract off harvest, and then you have the number

1299
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:35,120
Speaker 3: of fish that you tag that should go over Bonneville.

1300
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:38,560
Speaker 3: And in the biggest year, which was twenty fifteen, the

1301
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 3: biggest loss, fifty percent of the spring chinook run was

1302
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:49,560
Speaker 3: lost between Astoria and Bonneville. And that's peer reviewed publication.

1303
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 3: Fifty percent attributed to sea lions. And so we had

1304
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 3: a two hundred thousand fish were eaten by sea lions.

1305
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 3: Two hundred thousand fish cross Bona. That's the largest springs

1306
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,280
Speaker 3: nook run we've seen in decades.

1307
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,360
Speaker 8: Going back to what Steve said, how many sea lions

1308
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 8: are consuming two hundred thousand salmon?

1309
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's crazy. It's ballpark it's not that many, right,

1310
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:25,760
Speaker 3: you know that are at Bonneville. It's like I think

1311
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:28,640
Speaker 3: a couple of years we've maybe seen two hundred a

1312
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 3: little over two hundred individuals, so it isn't huge. And

1313
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 3: the animals that have been from this group of branded animals,

1314
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 3: there's a big haul outside at Astoria called the East

1315
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 3: Morning Basin and will cite animals there, and then the

1316
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:46,679
Speaker 3: ones that you'll see at Bonneville or at Wi Land

1317
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:50,640
Speaker 3: at Falls another place where they congregate similar situation with

1318
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:54,000
Speaker 3: sea lions. It's only about seven percent of that branded

1319
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 3: population go that far up, but that seven come back

1320
01:13:58,600 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 3: every year just like you're talking.

1321
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 2: But they habituate. There's faithful as the salmon man.

1322
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:06,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, once they've locked into it, they come back

1323
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 3: and we'll see them multiple years, three, four or five years.

1324
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 7: But so the tribal rights, because it seems like sometimes

1325
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 7: they can trump other laws and rules and rags. But

1326
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 7: I'm guessing that doesn't work in this case, to trump

1327
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:25,080
Speaker 7: the Marine Protect Mammal Protection Act.

1328
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, because of the Act. And that's what I've been

1329
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 4: talking about, is all.

1330
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:31,080
Speaker 2: You guys don't have harvest rights on sea lions.

1331
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 4: No, because historically they didn't come back in those those numbers,

1332
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 4: and they're not coming above Well, we have a few

1333
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 4: that come above Bonneville Dam that where our gilnet fisheries

1334
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 4: are only above Bonneville Dam in the Zone six fishing area,

1335
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:53,760
Speaker 4: and so we don't we don't harvest them. Like the

1336
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 4: big numbers are the Lower River and how you said

1337
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 4: the sea lions are a down problem, Well it goes

1338
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:02,799
Speaker 4: beyond just the problem when they're using that entire stretch

1339
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:06,000
Speaker 4: of the Lower River from Astoria. One year at Astoria,

1340
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 4: what he was talking about that east mooring basin, I

1341
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:12,840
Speaker 4: think there were was it ten thousand, eight thousand, It

1342
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 4: was a.

1343
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:16,360
Speaker 3: Right around four thousand, Yeah, at the East Morning Basin.

1344
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 3: In the East Morning Basin, it's not very big, you know,

1345
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 3: it went from the early two thousands. There would be

1346
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:25,559
Speaker 3: a couple of hundred a year and they do counts

1347
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 3: every day on these and they'd haul out on the docks.

1348
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,280
Speaker 3: The East Morning Basin is not used anymore. Used to

1349
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 3: be commercial vessels there as well as recreational, and it

1350
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:37,160
Speaker 3: was taken over by sea lions basically.

1351
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 1: Well, but I think what Yanni's asking is like picture that, Like,

1352
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 1: for instance, I have more familiarity with regulatory structure in Alaska.

1353
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:56,560
Speaker 1: But there are cases where you have NOAH administered species.

1354
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:59,559
Speaker 1: You have like US and Fish Wildlife Service administered species,

1355
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 1: whatever you have like tribal harvest rights where like you

1356
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:09,920
Speaker 1: know they can harvest, they can harvest walrus, they can

1357
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:11,680
Speaker 1: harvest whale species.

1358
01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 5: Right.

1359
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:15,759
Speaker 2: The things that would be off often is everybody else.

1360
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:19,959
Speaker 1: If if you're if the inner tribal group on the Columbia,

1361
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:24,959
Speaker 1: like if you wanted to, you wouldn't have the authority

1362
01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:27,799
Speaker 1: of just saying we're going to do sea lion control

1363
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 1: on our own because we're not beholden to we're not

1364
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:37,800
Speaker 1: beholden to EESA, or we're not behold in the marine

1365
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,160
Speaker 1: mammal Protection actly, you don't have that ability that you

1366
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:41,960
Speaker 1: don't have that legal ability just to take it into

1367
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 1: your own hands.

1368
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:46,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, we actually have. You know, Yakma has written their

1369
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 4: own resolution right, which is a tribal law that the

1370
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 4: taking of sea lions to protect life and property. And

1371
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:55,959
Speaker 4: it was funny I actually ended up in that situation

1372
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 4: where I fish by the city of the Dalls. There

1373
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 4: was an animal. There was a boat basin right where

1374
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 4: people have houseboats and whatnot. Well, there was one that

1375
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:07,880
Speaker 4: was actually living on a dock in there and those

1376
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 4: people were feeding it. It was there for a couple

1377
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 4: of years, right, it wouldn't leave, and it was I'd

1378
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 4: be running my nets and it would be swimming back

1379
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 4: and forth right next to me. And you know, they

1380
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:20,160
Speaker 4: had passed that resolution and my supervisor at the time

1381
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:22,400
Speaker 4: was like, you could shoot it, and I was like, yeah,

1382
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:26,080
Speaker 4: that would be real good optics yacumanation fish biologists, and

1383
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 4: I don't want to end up in court for the

1384
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:30,160
Speaker 4: next ten years. I didn't want to be the test

1385
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 4: case on it. But in hindsight, maybe I should have. Yeah,

1386
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:37,559
Speaker 4: I could have. But those types of things are happening.

1387
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 4: But like I said, the animals aren't up where we gillnet.

1388
01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 4: They're down below, so it would be hard for us

1389
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 4: to and we still have those laws in place. But

1390
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,800
Speaker 4: you know, and a lot of it is just being

1391
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:52,560
Speaker 4: good co managers. Right, we don't want to you know,

1392
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:53,080
Speaker 4: we want to.

1393
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:55,840
Speaker 2: Work together with you don't want to, yeah, on that

1394
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:56,400
Speaker 2: kind of thing.

1395
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, because there's so many other issues, like we talked

1396
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 4: about death by a thou and cuts. Right, this predation

1397
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:05,120
Speaker 4: the sea lion is a huge impact, but there's tons

1398
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:08,640
Speaker 4: of other things that we work together on. Yeah, so

1399
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:09,320
Speaker 4: just pushing it.

1400
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:12,000
Speaker 1: If you make too much smoke around the sea lion

1401
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:15,280
Speaker 1: issue and you create like a bad optic situation, it

1402
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 1: could impact you addressing.

1403
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:19,720
Speaker 2: All of the other issues that are making the problem.

1404
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 4: In funding as well. Just because you get the permit

1405
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:26,200
Speaker 4: doesn't mean that you're getting any funding that comes from

1406
01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:32,320
Speaker 4: appropriations and things like that. Is so this the program

1407
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:35,640
Speaker 4: that we have, like how Doug's explaining the trapping and

1408
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:39,560
Speaker 4: it has to be chemically euthanized by a licensed veterinarian

1409
01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:44,839
Speaker 4: and things like that, So it's really inefficient, like because

1410
01:18:45,479 --> 01:18:48,640
Speaker 4: there's that's in the act right that it has to

1411
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:52,840
Speaker 4: be chemically euthanized by a licensed veterinarian. Like it would

1412
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 4: be so much easier if you had it and you

1413
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:58,200
Speaker 4: could just shoot it. You know, that's humane as well,

1414
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 4: like rather than dragging them through all of that, yeah,

1415
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 4: like torture before leading them to their death. And you know,

1416
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 4: it's really inefficient the laws that are put upon us

1417
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:16,160
Speaker 4: to be able to do this work, Like we could

1418
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 4: be doing a lot more like darting. You could dart

1419
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:21,280
Speaker 4: to euthanize, but then you have to be able to

1420
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 4: recover the animal as well. So it's like you have

1421
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 4: no choice put to trap. And you know, like you said,

1422
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:30,840
Speaker 4: you see the same animals and as I was mentioning too,

1423
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:33,639
Speaker 4: like it's not just a dawn problem anymore. That's why

1424
01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 4: I brought up how many come to the mouth astoria.

1425
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 4: There are thousands there, but they're learning traits, like when

1426
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:44,639
Speaker 4: we have smelt runs returning, when we have sizeable smelt

1427
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:47,320
Speaker 4: runs coming up, and you know, historically they were in

1428
01:19:47,400 --> 01:19:50,040
Speaker 4: the lower tributaries and a lot come back to the

1429
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:53,559
Speaker 4: Cowlitz River. Well, the sea lions follow the smelt up

1430
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:56,679
Speaker 4: to the Cowlitz River, and they'll be hundreds, like five

1431
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,919
Speaker 4: hundred plus sea lions at the mouth of the Cowlitz

1432
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 4: beating on the smell, which are also threatened as well.

1433
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:08,040
Speaker 2: And there is a zilt narrow down on something that's small.

1434
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:10,880
Speaker 4: I don't know that, and so they follow up the smell.

1435
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:14,320
Speaker 4: They hang around there. When the smelt run trickles off,

1436
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:17,160
Speaker 4: then they can move upstream, like to the Lewis River

1437
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:22,240
Speaker 4: and eat you know, juvenile celmonids leaving the system. And

1438
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:24,800
Speaker 4: then by then it's time to head up to Bonneville

1439
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:27,800
Speaker 4: because you have spring schnook coming, so they're exploiting that

1440
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:32,400
Speaker 4: whole stretch of the Lower River and the removal program

1441
01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:37,040
Speaker 4: starts at the I two five bridge up to McNary Dam,

1442
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:40,680
Speaker 4: so it's really site specific. We don't have the ability

1443
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:45,880
Speaker 4: or the flexibility to address to these changing needs. For one,

1444
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 4: we don't have funding. It's largely underfunded. There's so much

1445
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 4: red tape and how you do things it's inefficient, and

1446
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 4: we don't have the ability to react and take action

1447
01:20:56,400 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 4: where it's necessary. Like Doug said about that that still

1448
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:03,120
Speaker 4: had population and ballard locks going extinct. You know, the

1449
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:05,800
Speaker 4: same thing could happen with their sake, same thing could

1450
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:10,120
Speaker 4: happen with ours, and there's no hierarchy. There's no act

1451
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:14,679
Speaker 4: amongst the Act about how the MMPA plays into the ESA.

1452
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 4: And another whole can of worms is the Migratory Bird

1453
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 4: Treaty Act. Right, you have huge avian impacts of goals

1454
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:26,040
Speaker 4: and things like that that are eating like up to

1455
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:29,360
Speaker 4: seventy percent of juveniles still had leaving the system.

1456
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 3: Are goals yeah, yeah, goals, cormorants yeah.

1457
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 4: And then now we have pelicans too that are feeding

1458
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:41,560
Speaker 4: on adult sake. Like I mentioned that year that we

1459
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 4: had the eight hundred thousand returning past Bonneville, the majority

1460
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 4: going to like Okanagant. Half of them died because that

1461
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 4: year there was also a heat dome, warm lethal temperatures.

1462
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 4: There were swimming zombies and pelicans just eating them like crazy.

1463
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:03,720
Speaker 4: We have pelicans that are resident in the Columbia there,

1464
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:08,360
Speaker 4: it's like a couple thousand breeding pairs. Right, It's it's

1465
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:12,519
Speaker 4: a ton. They don't leave the system anymore, and you.

1466
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 1: Can't just go out and start doing control measures. I know,

1467
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:17,639
Speaker 1: I guess cormorants are delisted at least some times.

1468
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:18,919
Speaker 3: They're all protected.

1469
01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:20,720
Speaker 4: They're all protected under the microprograt.

1470
01:22:22,439 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 2: But there's places where there are form rant like there's

1471
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:26,000
Speaker 2: squished your nasts and shit.

1472
01:22:26,120 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, it takes so much to get that

1473
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:32,280
Speaker 4: to that, Like you wouldn't even think the seagulls you

1474
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 4: see everywhere at dumps and at places eating French fries, right,

1475
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:41,320
Speaker 4: how protected they are. There's rocks like by Island in

1476
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:45,040
Speaker 4: the mid Columbia, right, it's called Miller Island, and it's

1477
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:48,000
Speaker 4: just the outcropping of rocks where there's this goal colony

1478
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 4: that I think it was like they were attributed to

1479
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 4: eating Mid Columbia Steelhead thirty one percent of the juveniles

1480
01:22:56,360 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 4: out migrating from that one colony. And we are still

1481
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:02,640
Speaker 4: working in that process, Like you have to do so

1482
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:07,439
Speaker 4: much effort of non lethal hazing where we're using like

1483
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:10,959
Speaker 4: boom cannons and the next year we used the falcon

1484
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:13,799
Speaker 4: and then finally we were able to do some lethal

1485
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:17,200
Speaker 4: take and able to oil like some eggs and things

1486
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:19,800
Speaker 4: like that. But when you do those things, you're just

1487
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 4: playing whackable. You're just moving, yeah, somewhere else. So there's

1488
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:28,400
Speaker 4: really are no ability to manage even on that.

1489
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,720
Speaker 2: And so yeah, that river would flow with blood. Man

1490
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:33,439
Speaker 2: if you just needed to get rid of everything there

1491
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:35,840
Speaker 2: was eating, but everything that was eating sane.

1492
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:38,280
Speaker 8: Well's the thing is fish always kind of get the

1493
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,960
Speaker 8: short straw when like you can't be shooting birds that

1494
01:23:42,080 --> 01:23:44,880
Speaker 8: people like to watch or sea lions that people liked,

1495
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 8: you know.

1496
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:48,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's the the biggest thing. There's no act

1497
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 4: amongst the acts. There's no hierarchy. How do we we

1498
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:55,240
Speaker 4: have these species, these fish that are on the brink

1499
01:23:55,280 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 4: of extinction and these sea lions that are exceeding carrying capacity.

1500
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,600
Speaker 4: That's why they're moving to find other food sources and

1501
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:08,160
Speaker 4: like looking at the future with sea level rise and

1502
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 4: change and everything. That was what Doug's been working on

1503
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:15,360
Speaker 4: with Noah National Marine Fishery Service as well, looking at

1504
01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:19,719
Speaker 4: impacts to the juvenile out migration. That's what he says.

1505
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:23,040
Speaker 4: They eat a lot more French fries than we ever imagined.

1506
01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:31,200
Speaker 2: Hm. So are you guys involved in the my I

1507
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:34,599
Speaker 2: have an older brother, he's in his early eighties.

1508
01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:38,880
Speaker 1: He's been turning in. He fishes the Columbia every day

1509
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 1: in the summer. He's been turning in. You know, he's

1510
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:44,760
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of boy hunting on northern on

1511
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:48,479
Speaker 1: the Pike mentals. Right, what's the story with that? Are

1512
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:49,240
Speaker 1: you guys involved in that?

1513
01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:55,439
Speaker 3: We're We're not peripherally, but I mean Washington State of

1514
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 3: Washington is the one that runs that program.

1515
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:00,799
Speaker 1: Is that Is that like productive that just like Tidley

1516
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 1: winks like, is that you think it's just pissing in

1517
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:05,640
Speaker 1: the wind or.

1518
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:09,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, because when you have a bounty like that, you

1519
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:11,760
Speaker 4: have people exploiting it, right, And I think there was

1520
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:14,280
Speaker 4: somebody that was growing some you.

1521
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:17,880
Speaker 1: Know, and some dudes you're clearing one hundred thousand bucks

1522
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:21,559
Speaker 1: a year. He's not he was telling me he recently

1523
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:22,960
Speaker 1: had a check for seventy.

1524
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:23,520
Speaker 3: Some dollars.

1525
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 8: Covered his gas.

1526
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:31,880
Speaker 2: It's just primarily a small mouth fisherman, but he likes

1527
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:34,520
Speaker 2: to make a little side. Yeah, Northern Pikes.

1528
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:38,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, and with that being an actual native species, just

1529
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 4: the you know, the change in the reservoir system. But

1530
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:44,040
Speaker 4: I think we're getting a lot bigger issue on the

1531
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:47,839
Speaker 4: predation from the warm water fish, the bass and walleye.

1532
01:25:48,160 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 2: Oh, like there's more that's doing more damage in northern

1533
01:25:51,400 --> 01:25:52,040
Speaker 2: Pike mentals.

1534
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:52,759
Speaker 3: Probably.

1535
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:55,320
Speaker 1: And then I got buddies, like, God bless them. I

1536
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:57,920
Speaker 1: got buddies that like to fish. Those like to fish.

1537
01:25:57,960 --> 01:25:58,680
Speaker 1: Small mom out there.

1538
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:01,960
Speaker 2: They're all up in arms about people pointing the finger

1539
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:02,599
Speaker 2: at small mouth.

1540
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's because it's like the crumb fight, dude. The

1541
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 1: crumb fight is a complex crumb fight.

1542
01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 8: Why would you want to get rid of this beautiful game?

1543
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:12,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

1544
01:26:12,960 --> 01:26:16,160
Speaker 3: And then you have these gigantic walleye that they're catching

1545
01:26:16,439 --> 01:26:19,280
Speaker 3: up there around you Matilla area, right, And so it's

1546
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:23,000
Speaker 3: attracting people to come there to catch these big walleye. Well,

1547
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 3: a big walleye eats a lot of smolts.

1548
01:26:25,320 --> 01:26:27,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's probably some group like walleye fishermen in the

1549
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:31,760
Speaker 1: Columbia know it's like fighting to like preserve the walleye or.

1550
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:34,679
Speaker 4: Whatever, you know, up and down it is and that's

1551
01:26:34,720 --> 01:26:37,679
Speaker 4: a big issue. Like and then you have the fishing guides,

1552
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:40,320
Speaker 4: right they say, well, that's our that's our off season

1553
01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 4: from salmon. Is like restore the salmon. Then you'd have

1554
01:26:43,439 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 4: a lot more salmon openings. Like they show those big

1555
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:49,120
Speaker 4: walleye and they cut them open and there's like tons

1556
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:53,360
Speaker 4: of smolts in them, and multiply that this guy.

1557
01:26:53,439 --> 01:27:00,800
Speaker 2: Your big walleye got, you can have them get. You

1558
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:03,240
Speaker 2: know what shows that mind frame is like totally different

1559
01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:06,400
Speaker 2: water system, but you're familiar here. We have the Yellowstone Park.

1560
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:08,040
Speaker 2: You know, Yellowstone Lake had a.

1561
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:12,960
Speaker 1: At some point in time they put lake trout in there,

1562
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:16,120
Speaker 1: which real detrimental to the cutthroats.

1563
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:16,600
Speaker 3: And so.

1564
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:19,800
Speaker 1: At one point they like made it that I think

1565
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:23,479
Speaker 1: it was mandatory retention. You know, if you caught it,

1566
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:25,760
Speaker 1: you had to kill it. I had a buddy he

1567
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:28,720
Speaker 1: lived here in town years ago. He would love that

1568
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:31,200
Speaker 1: go up there and fish, and I remember I was

1569
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:33,320
Speaker 1: asking about it and he's like, yeah, I like to

1570
01:27:33,400 --> 01:27:35,720
Speaker 1: hit it, but I'm always conscious to not damage the

1571
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:40,920
Speaker 1: resource of the lake trout because like people just get

1572
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:43,600
Speaker 1: that's just how people's minds work, you know, And you

1573
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:45,840
Speaker 1: go out and you catch some big old small mouth

1574
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:46,519
Speaker 1: and then it's just.

1575
01:27:48,240 --> 01:27:50,960
Speaker 2: You know, there's like a certain human adaptability. I guess

1576
01:27:51,080 --> 01:27:53,640
Speaker 2: man like people, maybe you.

1577
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:58,760
Speaker 1: Get where you get where you get fatalistic or pessimistic

1578
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:01,799
Speaker 1: or something, and you get where, we're not gonna the salmon.

1579
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:05,920
Speaker 1: Things not going to get fixed. And I love the

1580
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:11,080
Speaker 1: fish and they're not going to fix that. So I'm

1581
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:14,439
Speaker 1: here for small mouth. I'm here for walleye and that'll

1582
01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:16,200
Speaker 1: have to That'll do. That'll do for me.

1583
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:18,879
Speaker 6: I much try to see the one hundred pounds chinooks

1584
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:20,720
Speaker 6: I'm saying.

1585
01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:22,360
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get into the like you know

1586
01:28:22,360 --> 01:28:25,040
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like that's probably without thinking about it,

1587
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:26,120
Speaker 1: that's where people ride.

1588
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 8: Plus you're like you've created a recreational fishery that never

1589
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:32,600
Speaker 8: existed before, so people jump on it.

1590
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 7: You know, you do we know how and stop me

1591
01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:38,120
Speaker 7: if I'm going to jump ahead too much. But I

1592
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:39,040
Speaker 7: gotta get this question.

1593
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:40,640
Speaker 2: You can ask, why can't we just get rid of

1594
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:41,560
Speaker 2: all the damnsus?

1595
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:45,760
Speaker 7: No, it is damn related, But do we know how

1596
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:50,360
Speaker 7: now with all of our knowledge to do hydro electric

1597
01:28:50,439 --> 01:28:53,840
Speaker 7: power and salmon simultaneously.

1598
01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:54,920
Speaker 6: Oh, it is there.

1599
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:57,840
Speaker 7: It's technologically yeah, has someone figured out how to do it,

1600
01:28:57,920 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 7: but we just don't have the funds to do it. Like,

1601
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 7: is there a way to make these things not be

1602
01:29:02,640 --> 01:29:05,599
Speaker 7: part of the central you know system of the river

1603
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:08,920
Speaker 7: where like the nature could still do its thing, but

1604
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:11,679
Speaker 7: offset from that you'd have hydroelectric power.

1605
01:29:13,080 --> 01:29:13,760
Speaker 3: We keep it.

1606
01:29:14,200 --> 01:29:19,040
Speaker 4: It's ever changing goalposts, right, there's no limit or there's

1607
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 4: no oversight of carrying capacity. It's always more like we

1608
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:27,600
Speaker 4: could be we could have there's room for salmon and

1609
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:31,800
Speaker 4: the Northwest, you know, in the environment with this amount

1610
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:35,280
Speaker 4: of electricity and that spill, right, having spill keeping the

1611
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:38,800
Speaker 4: river or river and not just you know, the way

1612
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:42,200
Speaker 4: they want to operate it for the grid stability is

1613
01:29:42,320 --> 01:29:44,439
Speaker 4: to turn it off and on like a like a

1614
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:47,800
Speaker 4: battery like a light switch, and which is unnatural. You know,

1615
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:50,719
Speaker 4: like you have you know, your peak loading and things

1616
01:29:50,840 --> 01:29:54,200
Speaker 4: like that for to support industry and and things like that,

1617
01:29:54,439 --> 01:29:58,000
Speaker 4: so that that's what's really damaging. You don't have the

1618
01:29:58,120 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 4: spill to flush out the the juvenile salmon because that's.

1619
01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 2: Just when spring runoff.

1620
01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:06,600
Speaker 4: Ok and then even in the even in the summertime,

1621
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 4: right like late spring when when fish are moving out,

1622
01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 4: like the journey that used to take two weeks now

1623
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 4: takes two months and they've expended so many of their

1624
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:21,120
Speaker 4: resources before they even get to the ocean that survival decreases.

1625
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:23,920
Speaker 4: And the same thing when adults are returning. You have

1626
01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:28,479
Speaker 4: you know, the temperature the Columbia is warming earlier and

1627
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:33,559
Speaker 4: earlier every year, so that you know you have it's

1628
01:30:33,680 --> 01:30:37,600
Speaker 4: reaching sixty eight degrees like days earlier. We have a

1629
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:41,080
Speaker 4: chart that I could share with you over time of

1630
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 4: when you're reaching these lethal temperatures. And that's why we

1631
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:47,000
Speaker 4: have dying sokki now. Before we used to be seeing

1632
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:49,880
Speaker 4: those getting up to the lethal temperatures in the fall,

1633
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:52,400
Speaker 4: but then you'd get fall rains that would cool it

1634
01:30:52,520 --> 01:30:56,160
Speaker 4: back down. But you're not seeing that anymore. So it's

1635
01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:59,880
Speaker 4: just a lot. That's why the litigation has been there

1636
01:30:59,920 --> 01:31:02,760
Speaker 4: for so many years is because it's hydro operations is

1637
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:05,560
Speaker 4: the huge factor in survival.

1638
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 1: But is there a like however, you measure the amount

1639
01:31:09,520 --> 01:31:12,960
Speaker 1: of electricity Okay, like take any particular dam and you

1640
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:16,160
Speaker 1: measure how much what are they measured as what is

1641
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:19,200
Speaker 1: a dam measured as it puts off blank megawatts?

1642
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:19,519
Speaker 2: Okay?

1643
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:24,200
Speaker 1: To Tiani's point, be like, if you take a dam

1644
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:26,880
Speaker 1: and it produces one hundred megawatts, I don't know what

1645
01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:28,160
Speaker 1: tell one hundred megawatts?

1646
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:29,120
Speaker 2: Would you know?

1647
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 1: Would an engineer now look and go like, oh man,

1648
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:37,120
Speaker 1: nowadays I could give you one hundred megawatts without all that,

1649
01:31:38,240 --> 01:31:40,720
Speaker 1: or I could give you one hundred megawatts with a

1650
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:45,320
Speaker 1: much better fish passage system were we to start from scratch, you,

1651
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:47,720
Speaker 1: I mean, like, is there ways of which there's an

1652
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:52,320
Speaker 1: engineering solution? And I always saying like that that were

1653
01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:54,960
Speaker 1: they're constantly asking for more and more and more megawatts.

1654
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:57,599
Speaker 1: But if there weren't, just theoretically, if they weren't asking

1655
01:31:57,680 --> 01:32:01,120
Speaker 1: for more megawatts, could you get it all in a

1656
01:32:01,160 --> 01:32:03,240
Speaker 1: way that wasn't so damaging to the fish?

1657
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:04,240
Speaker 2: Now that we have.

1658
01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:09,880
Speaker 1: All these technological advancements that have occurred since nineteen fifty.

1659
01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:13,840
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, that's tough to do so and all

1660
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:16,640
Speaker 3: of them are different, right. Wells Dam, which is one

1661
01:32:16,680 --> 01:32:20,120
Speaker 3: of the the highest passable dam on the Columbia, has

1662
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 3: what they call a hydro combined so the spillway it

1663
01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:27,200
Speaker 3: sits and then underneath it is the pin stocks for

1664
01:32:27,280 --> 01:32:32,719
Speaker 3: the powerhouse, Well, they're the attraction flow for the pins

1665
01:32:32,920 --> 01:32:34,720
Speaker 3: is all in one place and you can kind of

1666
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:38,040
Speaker 3: direct your fish up into the spillway and get them

1667
01:32:38,120 --> 01:32:42,080
Speaker 3: over other places. You've got the spillway a quarter of

1668
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:44,880
Speaker 3: a mile away from where the powerhouse is. Some of

1669
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:47,800
Speaker 3: them are built at and Eld, you know, I mean

1670
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 3: they're every one of them is a different place because

1671
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:53,040
Speaker 3: they had to be to put them in those locations.

1672
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:55,679
Speaker 3: And so I think it would be like the complete

1673
01:32:56,640 --> 01:33:00,360
Speaker 3: tear down and rebuild. So the infrastructure cost would be huge.

1674
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:04,679
Speaker 3: And unless unless Nerve starts making turbines, there isn't really

1675
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:06,080
Speaker 3: a way to do it, you know.

1676
01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's not like retro fitting and things. It's

1677
01:33:09,160 --> 01:33:10,600
Speaker 1: just they build them and that's what they are.

1678
01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:13,360
Speaker 3: They're better and better, they're updating.

1679
01:33:14,439 --> 01:33:18,760
Speaker 4: We just visited. I toured John Day Dam recently, which

1680
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:21,920
Speaker 4: is I think the lere third largest power producer. They

1681
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:25,479
Speaker 4: have Grand Cooley, Bonnaville and then John Day. And the

1682
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 4: size of the turbans are huge. Like you go in there,

1683
01:33:29,960 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 4: like the dam doesn't look that big when you're driving,

1684
01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 4: but the width of it those turbans in there, I

1685
01:33:34,320 --> 01:33:38,000
Speaker 4: think they're like sixty or ninety foot diameter, Like that's

1686
01:33:38,080 --> 01:33:41,280
Speaker 4: how big, and they're like thirty feet tall. Like there's

1687
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:44,559
Speaker 4: one that's needed repairs. They had it lifted, you could

1688
01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:47,280
Speaker 4: see it. They've been doing repairs on it for ten years.

1689
01:33:48,080 --> 01:33:51,559
Speaker 4: And they were saying that that one's the next one

1690
01:33:51,680 --> 01:33:55,000
Speaker 4: schedule to be updated with this newer turbine that they

1691
01:33:55,080 --> 01:33:57,840
Speaker 4: have at Bonneville, and that's supposed to be you know,

1692
01:33:58,240 --> 01:33:59,360
Speaker 4: more fish safe and.

1693
01:34:00,240 --> 01:34:03,080
Speaker 2: Fish cause these are literally killed. They're they're literally hitting

1694
01:34:03,160 --> 01:34:03,920
Speaker 2: fish and killing them.

1695
01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:08,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, what but that but just going on the scale

1696
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:13,120
Speaker 4: is like I had to physically see it to understand,

1697
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 4: Like my god, these things are massive in the amount

1698
01:34:16,479 --> 01:34:20,160
Speaker 4: of money. Like there sed that project schedules to start

1699
01:34:20,240 --> 01:34:24,439
Speaker 4: in I think he said twenty thirty cost several billion

1700
01:34:24,560 --> 01:34:27,679
Speaker 4: dollars and take twenty years to complete.

1701
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:31,599
Speaker 2: So that's fixing existing stuff.

1702
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:32,280
Speaker 6: M hmm.

1703
01:34:34,160 --> 01:34:37,439
Speaker 8: There's like has to be These power companies are like

1704
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:41,439
Speaker 8: have to be under some pressure to at least on

1705
01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 8: the face of things, show that they're doing things to

1706
01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:48,200
Speaker 8: help these runs. Like what kind of partners are they.

1707
01:34:48,240 --> 01:34:48,680
Speaker 3: To work with?

1708
01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:51,080
Speaker 8: Like is it just like do you feel like it's

1709
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:55,040
Speaker 8: just lip service or is there like like a bona

1710
01:34:55,120 --> 01:34:58,160
Speaker 8: fide effort to help out or like what's the what's

1711
01:34:58,240 --> 01:35:01,000
Speaker 8: the relationship with these power companies.

1712
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:04,840
Speaker 4: Well, the hardest thing is because it's not a power company,

1713
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 4: it's the federal government. Right, so they could more or

1714
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:11,200
Speaker 4: less do what they want on the timescale that they

1715
01:35:11,280 --> 01:35:14,720
Speaker 4: want and how things get done with you know, ten

1716
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:19,760
Speaker 4: years of studies and appropriations five years out and it's

1717
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 4: not even sufficient for today's dollar, let alone in five years.

1718
01:35:23,640 --> 01:35:27,599
Speaker 8: So the dams are managed by the federal government.

1719
01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:32,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're operating corp of engineers and the business end,

1720
01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:37,040
Speaker 4: the marketing end of the power is Boneville Power Administration,

1721
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:43,000
Speaker 4: And that's one hundred percent of business focused on money,

1722
01:35:43,280 --> 01:35:47,639
Speaker 4: not looking at mitigation. They have the Fish and Wildlife program,

1723
01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:54,280
Speaker 4: Like there's been years of like unanticipated revenues, Like they've

1724
01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:59,759
Speaker 4: made like millions and millions more than they anticipated. Okay,

1725
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:03,360
Speaker 4: so the Fish and Wildlife program is X amount. They

1726
01:36:03,439 --> 01:36:06,880
Speaker 4: have all this unanticipated revenue, there's a cap on how

1727
01:36:06,960 --> 01:36:09,880
Speaker 4: much goes to the fish and Wildlife program. The rest

1728
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:11,679
Speaker 4: of it they go back to pay down their debt

1729
01:36:11,760 --> 01:36:14,920
Speaker 4: with the Feds, and they also give breaks. They give

1730
01:36:15,040 --> 01:36:19,400
Speaker 4: money back to their industrial users, like what what company.

1731
01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:21,840
Speaker 8: Do they just kind of view you guys as like

1732
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:23,400
Speaker 8: a fly buzzing in their ear.

1733
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:25,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, sadly.

1734
01:36:25,479 --> 01:36:30,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. The solutions are aren't new. I mean basically it's

1735
01:36:30,160 --> 01:36:32,439
Speaker 3: running a river more like a natural river. The more

1736
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:34,880
Speaker 3: you could do that, the better it is for fish.

1737
01:36:35,640 --> 01:36:36,760
Speaker 2: But I mean it's like.

1738
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:39,640
Speaker 1: Even with the dams. Yeah, they're like even with the

1739
01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:42,280
Speaker 1: dams in place. I guess that's kind of like I

1740
01:36:42,320 --> 01:36:46,599
Speaker 1: guess I'll jump to what would be sort of version

1741
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:51,639
Speaker 1: of my last My last question would be years ago,

1742
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:57,760
Speaker 1: we had Mike Simpson on and and Idaho representative House Representatives.

1743
01:36:58,160 --> 01:37:00,640
Speaker 1: He came on and he was at the time, I

1744
01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:02,360
Speaker 1: don't think it went anywhere. He was pitching a plan

1745
01:37:02,479 --> 01:37:07,240
Speaker 1: on a damn removal plan which had so many facets

1746
01:37:07,280 --> 01:37:09,960
Speaker 1: around agricultural production, shipping and all that, and it.

1747
01:37:10,080 --> 01:37:10,720
Speaker 2: Came with this.

1748
01:37:11,800 --> 01:37:14,600
Speaker 1: It came with this stipulation that were they to do

1749
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:20,080
Speaker 1: this this removal project, all the litigants, all the environmental

1750
01:37:20,160 --> 01:37:24,800
Speaker 1: groups imagine tribes would agree to sort of this this

1751
01:37:25,120 --> 01:37:28,519
Speaker 1: like cease. They would they would stop lawsuits for some

1752
01:37:28,600 --> 01:37:32,280
Speaker 1: period of time on on fisheries that dam is still standing, right,

1753
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:38,080
Speaker 1: So like a sort of like broad ultimate question would

1754
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:43,479
Speaker 1: be what are the odds that dams come out? Like

1755
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:47,200
Speaker 1: if you had the crystal ball a century into the future,

1756
01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:51,599
Speaker 1: do we have fewer dams then? And then the offshoot

1757
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:54,000
Speaker 1: of the question is if is if no, the dams

1758
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:56,400
Speaker 1: will never It's not really the major dams will never

1759
01:37:56,520 --> 01:38:02,120
Speaker 1: go away. Then it's it's what could be done differently?

1760
01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:04,000
Speaker 1: And you're kind of getting at I guess like you

1761
01:38:04,120 --> 01:38:06,680
Speaker 1: could the dams could still be there, but there are

1762
01:38:06,840 --> 01:38:09,880
Speaker 1: other things that are plausible that could help.

1763
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:13,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, you got to run it as close to a

1764
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:15,920
Speaker 3: natural river as you can. It's priorities, right, if you

1765
01:38:16,439 --> 01:38:20,800
Speaker 3: prioritize fish passage higher than you do now, it's prioritized

1766
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:24,000
Speaker 3: for dam or for power production, right, and so it's

1767
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:28,720
Speaker 3: maximize or optimized power production. And then whatever's left it's

1768
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:32,080
Speaker 3: the crumbs. Whatever's left. We could do what we can

1769
01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:35,040
Speaker 3: around the edges for fish, but if you raise that

1770
01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:38,080
Speaker 3: and made the fish more important, you know, you can

1771
01:38:38,160 --> 01:38:40,280
Speaker 3: look at papers from the fifties, they knew some of

1772
01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 3: the solutions. These aren't new, but it's it's always been

1773
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:48,880
Speaker 3: that the money is from the dams and the power production,

1774
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:52,360
Speaker 3: and that's that's run the whole system. And it's all

1775
01:38:52,920 --> 01:38:54,840
Speaker 3: it all operates and revolves around that.

1776
01:38:55,960 --> 01:38:58,880
Speaker 2: Did they when they were conceptualizing those dams?

1777
01:38:59,320 --> 01:39:01,800
Speaker 1: I've has a lot of pep this question. I've ever

1778
01:39:01,880 --> 01:39:05,000
Speaker 1: got a great answer to it. But like when they

1779
01:39:05,040 --> 01:39:09,040
Speaker 1: were pitching the dams, the engineers, right, everybody's getting together

1780
01:39:09,120 --> 01:39:12,160
Speaker 1: on these dams. Did was did they realize? Do you

1781
01:39:12,240 --> 01:39:20,000
Speaker 1: think they knew? Do you think their discussions included conversations

1782
01:39:20,280 --> 01:39:22,559
Speaker 1: about how catastrophic this would be for fish?

1783
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:22,720
Speaker 5: Like?

1784
01:39:22,840 --> 01:39:24,240
Speaker 2: Did they they knew?

1785
01:39:24,760 --> 01:39:30,839
Speaker 4: There was actually the the memos were discovered by opb

1786
01:39:31,160 --> 01:39:35,320
Speaker 4: Oregan Public broadcasting. Recently, you did a Tony Chick did

1787
01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:40,519
Speaker 4: a series Salmon War's podcast. But yeah, he had the

1788
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:44,200
Speaker 4: memos that talked about the kind of the cost benefit

1789
01:39:44,280 --> 01:39:46,639
Speaker 4: of analysis. Like I said, the salmon became a problem

1790
01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:49,360
Speaker 4: because then they'd have to put in fish passage, and

1791
01:39:49,840 --> 01:39:52,040
Speaker 4: they also labeled it as an Indian problem. We get

1792
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:54,720
Speaker 4: rid of the salmon, we don't have to deal with

1793
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 4: the Indian problem on on the Mansteam River anymore. So

1794
01:39:58,880 --> 01:40:01,559
Speaker 4: that was in all of it was a choice, even

1795
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:06,360
Speaker 4: on the upper it because they looked at building Bonneville

1796
01:40:06,439 --> 01:40:10,840
Speaker 4: without passage with or without and thankfully with and but

1797
01:40:11,080 --> 01:40:13,400
Speaker 4: you know, you look up in Hill's Canyon, Hills Canyon

1798
01:40:13,479 --> 01:40:16,400
Speaker 4: down there's no passage, but there could be. They could

1799
01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:21,520
Speaker 4: bore through the the mountain too for their their turbines,

1800
01:40:21,760 --> 01:40:23,720
Speaker 4: you know, to make the turbines more efficient, but they

1801
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:27,360
Speaker 4: couldn't provide passage. So all of those things you visit them,

1802
01:40:27,439 --> 01:40:30,479
Speaker 4: it's it's it was a choice and all based on

1803
01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:34,479
Speaker 4: cost and also looking at long term maintenance. And he

1804
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:39,360
Speaker 4: talked about like will these be here forever? No, because

1805
01:40:39,880 --> 01:40:44,000
Speaker 4: there's there's lack of maintenance. Like Doug said, like okay,

1806
01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:47,639
Speaker 4: every all the all the the money and the emphasis

1807
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,479
Speaker 4: is put on power production and things get fixed really fast.

1808
01:40:51,600 --> 01:40:54,080
Speaker 4: But when there's an issue with the passage thing or

1809
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:58,320
Speaker 4: especially monitoring, that's the first thing to get sliced off

1810
01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:02,519
Speaker 4: of the budget. And and you were talking about, you know, litigation.

1811
01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:05,840
Speaker 4: We had that stay in litigation which was going good.

1812
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:08,759
Speaker 4: We were just getting started, but in June of twenty

1813
01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:13,880
Speaker 4: five it was canceled terminated by the current administration. So

1814
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:16,880
Speaker 4: we lost all of that headway that we had made

1815
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:19,640
Speaker 4: over those those couple of years with the Biden administration.

1816
01:41:19,880 --> 01:41:22,680
Speaker 4: So we're back to we still have the six sovereigns

1817
01:41:22,760 --> 01:41:27,880
Speaker 4: working together pushing to advance those efforts and looking for appropriations.

1818
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:31,519
Speaker 4: But we don't have the commitments from the agencies of

1819
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:35,960
Speaker 4: the federal government, the Bureau Reclamation, Army Corps, and everything

1820
01:41:36,120 --> 01:41:40,000
Speaker 4: like that to address these problems. And you know, when

1821
01:41:40,040 --> 01:41:42,840
Speaker 4: we started our advocacy, we were talking about the billion

1822
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:47,479
Speaker 4: dollar backlog, the billion dollar backlog in needs in the

1823
01:41:47,560 --> 01:41:50,759
Speaker 4: Columbia Basin. Well, once we started writing it down on paper,

1824
01:41:51,200 --> 01:41:53,759
Speaker 4: it actually came out to be like two billion dollars,

1825
01:41:54,160 --> 01:41:58,560
Speaker 4: Like a billion dollars in passage at the dams, and

1826
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:04,439
Speaker 4: then like another billion and hatchery maintenance because they built

1827
01:42:04,439 --> 01:42:08,160
Speaker 4: these hatcheries, they're so outdated and never reach full production.

1828
01:42:08,320 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 4: They have failing intakes, crumbling raceways, they're not efficient. And

1829
01:42:13,439 --> 01:42:16,599
Speaker 4: so the things that we advocate for isn't just for us,

1830
01:42:16,720 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 4: it's actually, can you appropriate the money for you to

1831
01:42:20,640 --> 01:42:23,559
Speaker 4: fund yourself to do the things that you should be doing.

1832
01:42:24,479 --> 01:42:28,120
Speaker 4: And then even you know, looking at habitat restoration and

1833
01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:33,759
Speaker 4: you know, the roads and culverts and irrigation intakes and everything.

1834
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:38,240
Speaker 4: We're just like out there looking for everybody to do

1835
01:42:38,439 --> 01:42:41,120
Speaker 4: the right thing of what we all should be doing

1836
01:42:41,520 --> 01:42:44,920
Speaker 4: for our environment. And you know, it's like a shared

1837
01:42:44,960 --> 01:42:50,560
Speaker 4: responsibility from all of us, and like the accumination. We

1838
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:54,200
Speaker 4: were involved with a damn removal project that didn't get

1839
01:42:54,200 --> 01:42:57,320
Speaker 4: as much media attention as like Elwa dam but it's

1840
01:42:57,360 --> 01:42:59,720
Speaker 4: actually it was actually a bigger project, and it took

1841
01:43:00,680 --> 01:43:03,960
Speaker 4: like nineteen years for that damn removal and the only

1842
01:43:04,000 --> 01:43:05,840
Speaker 4: reason that got done it was because it was with

1843
01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:09,200
Speaker 4: the private company. It was Pacific Core, And then it

1844
01:43:09,439 --> 01:43:12,960
Speaker 4: came down to the license for them to update the license,

1845
01:43:13,520 --> 01:43:16,240
Speaker 4: they had to either provide passage or take it down,

1846
01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:20,080
Speaker 4: and then they drug that out for five years. The tribes,

1847
01:43:20,200 --> 01:43:25,040
Speaker 4: Yakima and Cryptic actually pitched in money together to fund

1848
01:43:25,160 --> 01:43:29,679
Speaker 4: the study, the cost benefit analysis that showed that removal

1849
01:43:29,720 --> 01:43:33,080
Speaker 4: would be cheaper, and then Pacific Corps finally breached it.

1850
01:43:33,520 --> 01:43:35,400
Speaker 4: But it's like we have to hold their hand and

1851
01:43:35,520 --> 01:43:38,360
Speaker 4: walk them through everything and keep pushing all the time.

1852
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:42,680
Speaker 4: It's just more like pushing and paying to hold them

1853
01:43:42,720 --> 01:43:45,799
Speaker 4: accountable of things that they should be doing and funding

1854
01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:49,960
Speaker 4: things appropriately. We could have these acts and permits and everything,

1855
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:54,400
Speaker 4: but unless we have the resources to enact them, it's meaningless.

1856
01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:56,760
Speaker 2: So I'm going to go out on a limb on

1857
01:43:56,840 --> 01:43:57,160
Speaker 2: this one.

1858
01:43:57,200 --> 01:43:59,439
Speaker 1: But I mean the way the Trump administration's playing out

1859
01:43:59,520 --> 01:44:02,960
Speaker 1: with their life conservation record, I can't imagine there have

1860
01:44:03,120 --> 01:44:04,519
Speaker 1: any help on salmon issues.

1861
01:44:05,760 --> 01:44:07,680
Speaker 2: It's got to be low priority to them.

1862
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:11,559
Speaker 4: It was actually the Trump administration that signed the permit

1863
01:44:11,840 --> 01:44:18,040
Speaker 4: for the the removal h really yeah. But the thing

1864
01:44:18,120 --> 01:44:22,840
Speaker 4: that we get from congressionals and actually our our supervisor,

1865
01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:27,519
Speaker 4: our executive director actually just testified in Congress last month

1866
01:44:27,680 --> 01:44:35,000
Speaker 4: on this pinniped issue. And we're a Republican witness because and.

1867
01:44:35,200 --> 01:44:35,840
Speaker 5: We have our.

1868
01:44:37,479 --> 01:44:39,880
Speaker 1: I was saying that being like an interesting trade off

1869
01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:42,080
Speaker 1: is what the administration is going to give you is

1870
01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:46,320
Speaker 1: probably greater latitude because like like of a like of

1871
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:49,519
Speaker 1: a general suspicion of some of these acts that were passed,

1872
01:44:49,680 --> 01:44:54,400
Speaker 1: greater latitude for some things like removal of species, but

1873
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:58,880
Speaker 1: sort of just like generally less sympathy about river flows

1874
01:44:58,960 --> 01:44:59,240
Speaker 1: and things.

1875
01:44:59,240 --> 01:45:02,040
Speaker 3: I would imagine, Yeah, that's what we're after is that

1876
01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:05,000
Speaker 3: you know, there's no management provision in a Marie Mental

1877
01:45:05,040 --> 01:45:08,480
Speaker 3: Protection Act. We'd like an amendment to add management provisions

1878
01:45:08,560 --> 01:45:11,479
Speaker 3: and so a way that you could analyze the problem.

1879
01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:14,680
Speaker 3: And if it's river otters somewhere, if it's California sea

1880
01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:17,800
Speaker 3: lions or sellars, or whatever the problem is, there would

1881
01:45:17,800 --> 01:45:20,240
Speaker 3: be a process you could go through to get some

1882
01:45:20,680 --> 01:45:24,120
Speaker 3: management in place and be able to do that. The

1883
01:45:24,400 --> 01:45:27,599
Speaker 3: I guess I get quickly back to the sea lion thing.

1884
01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:31,640
Speaker 3: What we talked about earlier was the one to twenty removals,

1885
01:45:31,680 --> 01:45:34,400
Speaker 3: and then there was an amendment that was passed in

1886
01:45:34,520 --> 01:45:36,840
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen. It was signed by Trump and his first

1887
01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:41,639
Speaker 3: administration that did recognize the co management of the tribes,

1888
01:45:41,720 --> 01:45:45,320
Speaker 3: so tribes, our four treaty tribes were able to be

1889
01:45:45,600 --> 01:45:49,360
Speaker 3: party two permits along with the states, and then our

1890
01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:52,800
Speaker 3: tribes could delegate to critfic to do that and we've

1891
01:45:52,840 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 3: been doing that since. But it's you know, red tape

1892
01:45:56,600 --> 01:45:58,840
Speaker 3: is a killer. Because that was passed in December of

1893
01:45:58,920 --> 01:46:03,120
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, we immediately applied for a permit and our

1894
01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:07,160
Speaker 3: joint permit was finally issued in August of twenty so

1895
01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:10,720
Speaker 3: two years, two years, and then we start implementing it.

1896
01:46:10,880 --> 01:46:14,320
Speaker 3: And then that provision and it's one twenty f it

1897
01:46:15,160 --> 01:46:16,679
Speaker 3: allows area management.

1898
01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:19,160
Speaker 2: So that was the above the two five bridge.

1899
01:46:19,840 --> 01:46:23,280
Speaker 3: If an animal's up there, he's individually identifiable and he's

1900
01:46:23,320 --> 01:46:25,880
Speaker 3: having a significant negative impact. So if you can collect

1901
01:46:25,920 --> 01:46:29,440
Speaker 3: that animal, you can euthanize it, but it's very restrictive.

1902
01:46:29,479 --> 01:46:32,640
Speaker 3: You can't go out and specifically you can't shoot them.

1903
01:46:32,720 --> 01:46:35,880
Speaker 3: You have to trap chemically euthanize. So there's still some

1904
01:46:36,479 --> 01:46:39,280
Speaker 3: burden to it, but it isn't the level that we

1905
01:46:39,400 --> 01:46:42,240
Speaker 3: used to do when it was individual sea lion management.

1906
01:46:42,320 --> 01:46:44,519
Speaker 3: So it's a little better, but it only applies to

1907
01:46:44,640 --> 01:46:45,200
Speaker 3: the Columbia.

1908
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:48,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, on the question about the different administrations, I

1909
01:46:48,160 --> 01:46:49,559
Speaker 1: don't want to put you in a rough spot. Maybe

1910
01:46:49,560 --> 01:46:53,240
Speaker 1: maybe my assumption is wrong, but like I smember years ago,

1911
01:46:54,960 --> 01:46:57,400
Speaker 1: I can't remember, it was the first time Trump was running.

1912
01:46:57,800 --> 01:46:59,479
Speaker 1: He was kind of he was in California. He was

1913
01:46:59,520 --> 01:47:02,599
Speaker 1: like RIDI and the delta smelt, you know, like, why

1914
01:47:02,640 --> 01:47:06,760
Speaker 1: would you ever sacrifice anything for some little fish? And

1915
01:47:06,800 --> 01:47:08,880
Speaker 1: I think there's just in that way, like sort of

1916
01:47:08,920 --> 01:47:12,800
Speaker 1: a dismissiveness about some fisheries issues. But have you guys

1917
01:47:12,880 --> 01:47:16,040
Speaker 1: found that, like, have you gotten more done in during

1918
01:47:16,080 --> 01:47:18,920
Speaker 1: the Trump administrations than you do during the Bien administrations?

1919
01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:19,960
Speaker 2: Or is it not that simple?

1920
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:23,080
Speaker 4: No, it's not that simple. A lot has to do

1921
01:47:23,280 --> 01:47:28,080
Speaker 4: with funding that's coming into the federal agencies. The federal

1922
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:31,800
Speaker 4: agencies now that we work with have been gutted, right,

1923
01:47:32,040 --> 01:47:35,320
Speaker 4: So there's less less people to do the same amount

1924
01:47:35,360 --> 01:47:38,760
Speaker 4: of work and with less money, which which is.

1925
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:41,680
Speaker 1: A problem in so you felt the impact some of

1926
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:45,840
Speaker 1: the cuts of land management agencies, Yeah, and that and

1927
01:47:46,080 --> 01:47:49,040
Speaker 1: like but like also a red tape reduction, so less

1928
01:47:49,120 --> 01:47:50,280
Speaker 1: money and less red tape.

1929
01:47:51,880 --> 01:47:54,559
Speaker 4: No, it's still there, it's just the processes just take

1930
01:47:54,640 --> 01:47:57,559
Speaker 4: longer now, you know, or you don't have somebody there

1931
01:47:57,680 --> 01:48:00,200
Speaker 4: to you don't have that human there to process us.

1932
01:48:00,240 --> 01:48:02,760
Speaker 4: This permit which we ran into last year on a

1933
01:48:02,800 --> 01:48:06,200
Speaker 4: tagging project, like we couldn't access that area because there

1934
01:48:06,320 --> 01:48:09,960
Speaker 4: was no the person was Doze that did wrote that

1935
01:48:10,080 --> 01:48:13,240
Speaker 4: permit for us, and just things like that. I think

1936
01:48:13,880 --> 01:48:17,559
Speaker 4: the around this predation thing is like the one crumb

1937
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:22,840
Speaker 4: that we could actually get done during this time. And

1938
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:25,600
Speaker 4: because like I said, we were a Republican witness and

1939
01:48:26,000 --> 01:48:29,719
Speaker 4: resistance to change and we're mindful of you know, egg

1940
01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:32,880
Speaker 4: and transportation and things like that, but we're looking for

1941
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:37,120
Speaker 4: responsible ways to do things. There's beyond the status quo.

1942
01:48:37,479 --> 01:48:40,320
Speaker 4: And you know, there's a lot of interest in just

1943
01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:44,559
Speaker 4: protecting the dams. So they're quick to point at sea lions.

1944
01:48:45,439 --> 01:48:48,000
Speaker 4: They are a huge impact, but that's not the only impact.

1945
01:48:48,120 --> 01:48:50,960
Speaker 4: But if that's the only thing we could get right now,

1946
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 4: then we need to maximize our effort and jump on

1947
01:48:54,640 --> 01:48:58,040
Speaker 4: that and get these things done now while we have

1948
01:48:58,160 --> 01:48:59,600
Speaker 4: the chance while the focus is.

1949
01:48:59,640 --> 01:49:00,680
Speaker 2: On on that.

1950
01:49:01,320 --> 01:49:09,240
Speaker 1: That's a conservation gamble that just in the conservation movement

1951
01:49:09,280 --> 01:49:13,559
Speaker 1: at large. That is a gamble that causes for people

1952
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:17,479
Speaker 1: that like things simple. That's a gamble people have to

1953
01:49:17,520 --> 01:49:19,840
Speaker 1: live in that makes people uncomfortable, especially people that want

1954
01:49:19,880 --> 01:49:21,280
Speaker 1: things to be very cut and dried, good.

1955
01:49:21,160 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 2: Guy, bad guy, really simple. But that an organization yourselves,

1956
01:49:26,240 --> 01:49:29,800
Speaker 2: or any number of conservation organizations with a new administration

1957
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:33,439
Speaker 2: comes in and you're like, here's all the things we're

1958
01:49:33,520 --> 01:49:37,920
Speaker 2: not going to get, but there's this, you know, and

1959
01:49:38,000 --> 01:49:40,280
Speaker 2: we can be friendly and try to get this one thing,

1960
01:49:41,880 --> 01:49:44,120
Speaker 2: or we can dig in our heels and spend four

1961
01:49:44,200 --> 01:49:45,800
Speaker 2: years with nothing, you know.

1962
01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:47,560
Speaker 1: I mean, and a lot of people want you just

1963
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:50,479
Speaker 1: to dig in your heels and get nothing rather than

1964
01:49:50,560 --> 01:49:53,719
Speaker 1: look like you're cooperating, you know, And then it flips.

1965
01:49:53,960 --> 01:49:56,080
Speaker 2: Then four years later it flips the other way around.

1966
01:49:56,160 --> 01:50:00,880
Speaker 1: You're like, you know, killing sea lines is out, yeah, right,

1967
01:50:01,000 --> 01:50:03,120
Speaker 1: but we might get some sympathy on this other issue.

1968
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:06,600
Speaker 4: You know, it was really hard. We're kind of a

1969
01:50:06,720 --> 01:50:09,800
Speaker 4: perfect storm we ran into. Was right.

1970
01:50:10,040 --> 01:50:10,479
Speaker 3: We had that.

1971
01:50:12,400 --> 01:50:15,479
Speaker 4: We've had this accords agreement since two thousand and eight.

1972
01:50:15,560 --> 01:50:18,360
Speaker 4: It's the Bonneville Fish Accords, where it was a ten

1973
01:50:18,439 --> 01:50:23,400
Speaker 4: year agreement twenty and eight to twenty eighteen where there

1974
01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:26,880
Speaker 4: was a set program We said we won't sue you,

1975
01:50:27,400 --> 01:50:30,320
Speaker 4: and you fund these programs. And the benefit in that

1976
01:50:30,640 --> 01:50:34,360
Speaker 4: is we weren't having to justify and fight every year

1977
01:50:34,640 --> 01:50:38,720
Speaker 4: for funding to do this or that. We're really micromanaged.

1978
01:50:39,240 --> 01:50:42,919
Speaker 4: Even now today, we're still really micromanaged as Phish managers,

1979
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:46,479
Speaker 4: the expert micromanaged by the funding agencies of course, because

1980
01:50:46,840 --> 01:50:49,920
Speaker 4: they control the purse strings, and that's still a frustration

1981
01:50:50,080 --> 01:50:53,200
Speaker 4: for us. But the accords gave us the ability to

1982
01:50:53,360 --> 01:50:57,280
Speaker 4: do non eesa work and work on things like sturgeon

1983
01:50:57,439 --> 01:51:00,400
Speaker 4: and lamprey and things like that kind of ban what

1984
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:02,719
Speaker 4: we were doing, and we made a lot of progress

1985
01:51:02,800 --> 01:51:06,719
Speaker 4: and since then we never signed another long term agreement.

1986
01:51:06,840 --> 01:51:12,960
Speaker 4: We went through two three year extensions in eighteen and

1987
01:51:13,360 --> 01:51:18,000
Speaker 4: so we were just starting to negotiate that a new

1988
01:51:18,160 --> 01:51:21,679
Speaker 4: long term agreement. Bonneville rolled the dice on the election

1989
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:26,479
Speaker 4: and they won. We didn't get another agreement, and they

1990
01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:30,479
Speaker 4: gave us another extension. But in that and I mentioned

1991
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:36,320
Speaker 4: the litigation on the hydro operations Arounda, the EESA litigation,

1992
01:51:36,760 --> 01:51:40,000
Speaker 4: And so we were in that stay. We were living good,

1993
01:51:40,439 --> 01:51:44,960
Speaker 4: looking forward to a new another you know, favorable administration,

1994
01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:49,320
Speaker 4: and it flipped the opposite way. We lost that agreement.

1995
01:51:49,439 --> 01:51:53,880
Speaker 4: It was terminated. And then this Bonneville piece, they have

1996
01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:59,120
Speaker 4: no the accords ended, they have no written, legal binding

1997
01:51:59,200 --> 01:52:03,760
Speaker 4: commitment to accept this really hard, long process of you know,

1998
01:52:04,000 --> 01:52:07,800
Speaker 4: the Power Council, the Northwest Power Act, their commitments to

1999
01:52:07,880 --> 01:52:11,360
Speaker 4: the fish and wildlife program, their responsibilities that it's really tough.

2000
01:52:11,479 --> 01:52:16,559
Speaker 4: The so the accords ending, and then there was money

2001
01:52:16,880 --> 01:52:19,400
Speaker 4: left over from that that was tied up in their

2002
01:52:19,680 --> 01:52:26,240
Speaker 4: years of red tape to build facilities or do certain projects. Well,

2003
01:52:26,920 --> 01:52:31,360
Speaker 4: when the tribes signed to take the litigation back into court,

2004
01:52:31,560 --> 01:52:36,320
Speaker 4: the state was ended, Okay, let's reinitiate this litigation. Bonneville

2005
01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:40,559
Speaker 4: viewed that as a negative action towards them, and they said,

2006
01:52:41,240 --> 01:52:43,519
Speaker 4: we don't owe you that money anymore. You violated the

2007
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:48,200
Speaker 4: Of course, it was fifty million dollars to the tribes.

2008
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:51,600
Speaker 4: That there's still our tribes are having to go to

2009
01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:56,439
Speaker 4: DC to lobby to get that money back too. Like,

2010
01:52:56,560 --> 01:52:59,960
Speaker 4: we have projects we've been working on for fifteen years

2011
01:53:00,160 --> 01:53:00,280
Speaker 4: and that.

2012
01:53:00,280 --> 01:53:05,680
Speaker 1: Would have been fifty million bucks towards salmon. Yeah, not

2013
01:53:05,880 --> 01:53:07,320
Speaker 1: like for people to walk home and put in their

2014
01:53:07,360 --> 01:53:07,960
Speaker 1: bank accounts.

2015
01:53:09,400 --> 01:53:12,400
Speaker 4: No, it was all earmarked for projects that we weren't

2016
01:53:12,479 --> 01:53:15,920
Speaker 4: able to get done on the ground because of their

2017
01:53:16,000 --> 01:53:16,599
Speaker 4: red tape.

2018
01:53:16,920 --> 01:53:17,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2019
01:53:18,439 --> 01:53:25,000
Speaker 8: So I got a question about the Klamath, Like the

2020
01:53:25,120 --> 01:53:28,639
Speaker 8: dams aren't coming down on the Columbia right at least

2021
01:53:28,720 --> 01:53:33,040
Speaker 8: not anytime soon. But you know, a year or two

2022
01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:35,759
Speaker 8: ago when they took out the four dams on the Klamate,

2023
01:53:35,880 --> 01:53:41,360
Speaker 8: it's like now seen as a success for salmon. Is Like,

2024
01:53:41,439 --> 01:53:43,360
Speaker 8: I know you guys are focused on the Columbia, but

2025
01:53:43,640 --> 01:53:47,880
Speaker 8: is there like opportunities like the Klamath on other rivers

2026
01:53:48,000 --> 01:53:49,920
Speaker 8: besides the Columbia.

2027
01:53:50,479 --> 01:53:53,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, that one I mentioned on the on the White Salmon,

2028
01:53:53,360 --> 01:53:55,240
Speaker 4: the one that we did with Pacific Corp. Which is

2029
01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:58,280
Speaker 4: funny that was the same company that owned the Klamath

2030
01:53:58,400 --> 01:54:01,840
Speaker 4: dams that removed them, and it was a lot because

2031
01:54:01,920 --> 01:54:06,200
Speaker 4: of you know, reservoir succession and things were so bad

2032
01:54:06,479 --> 01:54:09,759
Speaker 4: in that system, they had no choice, which we're seeing

2033
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:12,559
Speaker 4: in the Columbia every year by a degradation of water

2034
01:54:12,680 --> 01:54:16,600
Speaker 4: quality set them in accumulation and things like that. We're

2035
01:54:16,640 --> 01:54:19,760
Speaker 4: not keeping up in the Columbia either. And like, like

2036
01:54:19,880 --> 01:54:23,639
Speaker 4: I mentioned that the dam on the Little White Salmon

2037
01:54:23,760 --> 01:54:26,040
Speaker 4: that was removed, but it took nineteen years.

2038
01:54:26,000 --> 01:54:26,479
Speaker 3: To do that.

2039
01:54:29,040 --> 01:54:30,360
Speaker 8: On the Klamath pretty quick.

2040
01:54:31,439 --> 01:54:34,520
Speaker 4: No, they were in the fight for decades as well.

2041
01:54:34,800 --> 01:54:38,120
Speaker 4: You just don't hear about it until until like things

2042
01:54:38,200 --> 01:54:43,920
Speaker 4: are happening. Yeah, and then always, like I mentioned, the

2043
01:54:44,000 --> 01:54:46,320
Speaker 4: only reason we got that dam removed is because of

2044
01:54:46,360 --> 01:54:50,360
Speaker 4: the licensing process that required fish passage. It was the

2045
01:54:50,400 --> 01:54:53,080
Speaker 4: same thing on the Klamath. They could have done fixes

2046
01:54:53,800 --> 01:54:56,960
Speaker 4: to maintain the dams, but it was cheaper for them

2047
01:54:57,000 --> 01:54:59,240
Speaker 4: to take them out. Like how you were saying, it's

2048
01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:03,800
Speaker 4: like things get costed out and it's never it's not like, yay,

2049
01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:07,040
Speaker 4: we won, they did the right thing. It's like they

2050
01:55:07,120 --> 01:55:10,640
Speaker 4: did what was cheapest for their pocket. Yeah, that that's

2051
01:55:10,720 --> 01:55:11,680
Speaker 4: always the trade off.

2052
01:55:11,840 --> 01:55:14,120
Speaker 1: So I think, how quickly do you see how quickly

2053
01:55:14,200 --> 01:55:15,960
Speaker 1: when when a dam comes down like that, like in

2054
01:55:16,040 --> 01:55:18,880
Speaker 1: the clam or whatever, how quickly do you see results in.

2055
01:55:18,960 --> 01:55:20,480
Speaker 2: Terms of fish passage.

2056
01:55:20,680 --> 01:55:23,480
Speaker 4: The next year? It was it was like that in

2057
01:55:24,240 --> 01:55:27,160
Speaker 4: the White Salmon when we removed that dam. Actually, a

2058
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:29,840
Speaker 4: few years ago I hosted the we had a ten

2059
01:55:29,960 --> 01:55:33,840
Speaker 4: year Returning Salmon celebration there because they thought it would

2060
01:55:33,880 --> 01:55:36,240
Speaker 4: take like several years to rebuild. But those fish have

2061
01:55:36,320 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 4: been coming back, like you open the door, they're they're gonna.

2062
01:55:39,360 --> 01:55:42,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, run past fall I think.

2063
01:55:43,000 --> 01:55:47,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so it was that very next year. Yeah,

2064
01:55:49,640 --> 01:55:54,360
Speaker 4: this was the place my grandma was talking about. But yeah,

2065
01:55:54,760 --> 01:55:58,360
Speaker 4: it's just when you when you reconnect, you know, have

2066
01:55:58,520 --> 01:56:01,400
Speaker 4: those openings, then they're going to find the resources and

2067
01:56:01,520 --> 01:56:08,160
Speaker 4: return to those those areas they find their niche m yeah,

2068
01:56:08,320 --> 01:56:11,000
Speaker 4: I see. Doug has some pretty cool pictures of sea

2069
01:56:11,080 --> 01:56:12,120
Speaker 4: lions at Estoria.

2070
01:56:12,160 --> 01:56:12,440
Speaker 3: I was.

2071
01:56:13,960 --> 01:56:14,640
Speaker 2: Bringing it out.

2072
01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I want to show you those things. We

2073
01:56:17,080 --> 01:56:18,880
Speaker 3: don't have a great media for for that.

2074
01:56:19,080 --> 01:56:22,520
Speaker 6: But yeah, oh we can share with Phil and he

2075
01:56:22,560 --> 01:56:23,120
Speaker 6: can put them.

2076
01:56:23,040 --> 01:56:25,840
Speaker 3: On okay, yeah, yeah, pretty And these were from twenty

2077
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:28,720
Speaker 3: fifteen when that kind of been the peak of the

2078
01:56:28,960 --> 01:56:31,720
Speaker 3: sea lan issue. But they're just like all the docks

2079
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:34,920
Speaker 3: in the East Morning Basin and History are completely covered

2080
01:56:34,960 --> 01:56:38,720
Speaker 3: with sea lions and then patrolling in the water trying

2081
01:56:38,760 --> 01:56:40,120
Speaker 3: to find a spot to get out.

2082
01:56:41,720 --> 01:56:43,400
Speaker 2: I keep sort of asking this, and I think Brody

2083
01:56:43,400 --> 01:56:44,800
Speaker 2: asked too. But that's wy I'll be clear on it.

2084
01:56:46,600 --> 01:56:52,080
Speaker 1: In a century, the big like in one hundred years,

2085
01:56:53,160 --> 01:56:56,360
Speaker 1: the big Columbia dams will still be there.

2086
01:56:58,160 --> 01:57:01,640
Speaker 4: It's hard to say because things are getting so bad now,

2087
01:57:02,000 --> 01:57:08,040
Speaker 4: Like you're starting to have closures of parks and boat

2088
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:11,840
Speaker 4: ramps and areas because of toxic algo blooms in the

2089
01:57:11,920 --> 01:57:15,320
Speaker 4: summer because of heat. And I know right there in

2090
01:57:15,360 --> 01:57:19,320
Speaker 4: the Tri Cities there's been dogs that are dying people.

2091
01:57:19,440 --> 01:57:21,200
Speaker 4: You know, the dogs are running around in the water.

2092
01:57:21,880 --> 01:57:24,760
Speaker 4: And so I think when it starts, it's gonna start

2093
01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:29,240
Speaker 4: impacting people and those types of resources because of the

2094
01:57:30,320 --> 01:57:31,879
Speaker 4: degradation of water quality.

2095
01:57:32,440 --> 01:57:34,480
Speaker 2: And we didn't do it for sam and might do

2096
01:57:34,560 --> 01:57:35,160
Speaker 2: it for dogs.

2097
01:57:35,600 --> 01:57:39,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, but cattle the wrong.

2098
01:57:39,800 --> 01:57:43,640
Speaker 2: Suburbanites dog and they're gonna be like this cannot stand. Yeah.

2099
01:57:44,000 --> 01:57:46,800
Speaker 4: And then you know, like when cattle end up in

2100
01:57:46,920 --> 01:57:50,440
Speaker 4: those toxic algo bloom situations, it's like, well, if you

2101
01:57:50,480 --> 01:57:53,560
Speaker 4: would have just had this buffer from the stream to

2102
01:57:53,720 --> 01:57:57,240
Speaker 4: protect the nutrient loading in your creek, then your cattle

2103
01:57:57,240 --> 01:57:59,880
Speaker 4: wouldn't have died. But there's still up in arms of

2104
01:58:00,000 --> 01:58:02,000
Speaker 4: about their cattle dying because of it.

2105
01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:04,040
Speaker 2: So it could be like a broader.

2106
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:11,960
Speaker 1: Like a broader litany of environmental degradations could bring up

2107
01:58:12,040 --> 01:58:16,520
Speaker 1: in the future more serious discussions about like doing something

2108
01:58:16,640 --> 01:58:17,440
Speaker 1: really radical.

2109
01:58:18,120 --> 01:58:22,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's the thing, you know, Like I mentioned

2110
01:58:22,080 --> 01:58:25,520
Speaker 4: the Six Sovereigns and then we had that Resilient Columbia

2111
01:58:25,600 --> 01:58:30,160
Speaker 4: Basin Agreement. But our negotiating piece was the creation of

2112
01:58:30,360 --> 01:58:36,440
Speaker 4: the Columbia Basin Restoration Initiative. That's an initiative that's created

2113
01:58:36,600 --> 01:58:40,320
Speaker 4: and vetted by the Six Sovereigns. It's the tribes because

2114
01:58:40,680 --> 01:58:43,000
Speaker 4: our tribes we've had with crypt Fik, we've had the

2115
01:58:43,120 --> 01:58:46,960
Speaker 4: waikanashmu wa Kishwit, you know for twenty years, you know

2116
01:58:47,160 --> 01:58:51,040
Speaker 4: that set these these recovery plans and recovery goals. Well,

2117
01:58:51,600 --> 01:58:55,040
Speaker 4: this was taking that to the next step and coming

2118
01:58:55,120 --> 01:58:58,000
Speaker 4: together with our co manager. It's our guiding north star

2119
01:58:58,240 --> 01:59:01,560
Speaker 4: that we're still working towards. And so that's what we're

2120
01:59:01,720 --> 01:59:06,520
Speaker 4: looking at today about you know, habitat restoration in the

2121
01:59:06,600 --> 01:59:10,600
Speaker 4: mid Columbia. And also, like I mentioned, the it's cold

2122
01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:16,120
Speaker 4: water Refusia, the the through the migration corridor the Columbia

2123
01:59:16,160 --> 01:59:19,000
Speaker 4: where you have the tributary mouths, the deltas that are

2124
01:59:19,360 --> 01:59:22,040
Speaker 4: all full of sediment and you know, have all the

2125
01:59:22,120 --> 01:59:25,280
Speaker 4: predation and water quality issues and things like that. So

2126
01:59:26,080 --> 01:59:29,640
Speaker 4: we're able to like have this input of cold water

2127
01:59:29,800 --> 01:59:33,720
Speaker 4: to corral so that returning adults they have respite as

2128
01:59:33,800 --> 01:59:37,600
Speaker 4: they travel these hundreds of miles upstream. And that's something

2129
01:59:37,680 --> 01:59:40,720
Speaker 4: that's doable today. You know, we just got to break

2130
01:59:40,800 --> 01:59:43,680
Speaker 4: through the red tape and get the funding to actually

2131
01:59:43,800 --> 01:59:47,600
Speaker 4: do it, and that would be a huge benefit for salmon.

2132
01:59:48,160 --> 01:59:51,040
Speaker 4: Like we have all these recovery plans for the basins

2133
01:59:51,200 --> 01:59:55,400
Speaker 4: and you know habitat projects just waiting to be funded

2134
01:59:55,960 --> 01:59:59,360
Speaker 4: and then addressing these things. You know, predation have been

2135
01:59:59,720 --> 02:00:03,560
Speaker 4: this wiki wheel about predation over the past few years,

2136
02:00:03,760 --> 02:00:07,240
Speaker 4: like the pinniped predation, but also the avian predation and

2137
02:00:07,680 --> 02:00:11,400
Speaker 4: the piscine the warm water predators. But there's also invasives

2138
02:00:11,520 --> 02:00:16,640
Speaker 4: that are heavily impacting our river system and that's American shad.

2139
02:00:17,320 --> 02:00:20,920
Speaker 4: Those were introduced in the eighteen hundreds and there was

2140
02:00:20,960 --> 02:00:25,000
Speaker 4: a very problematic I saw article from the Seattle Times

2141
02:00:25,240 --> 02:00:29,520
Speaker 4: on the shad issue that they're just becoming accepted. That

2142
02:00:29,720 --> 02:00:32,120
Speaker 4: was the title, There's a new top fish in the

2143
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:35,560
Speaker 4: Columbia and it doesn't mine the warm water where you

2144
02:00:35,720 --> 02:00:40,240
Speaker 4: have we've had years of eight million shad returning road

2145
02:00:41,000 --> 02:00:46,240
Speaker 4: and so that's totally unnatural. And that's that that feeds

2146
02:00:46,320 --> 02:00:50,040
Speaker 4: the predators when you know, because their life cycle is opposite.

2147
02:00:50,160 --> 02:00:53,160
Speaker 4: So when these warm water predators there, the salmonids are

2148
02:00:53,160 --> 02:00:56,160
Speaker 4: out there eating juvenile shad, and then you have all

2149
02:00:56,240 --> 02:01:00,680
Speaker 4: the pelicans that are feasting on shad and they're spawning

2150
02:01:00,760 --> 02:01:03,880
Speaker 4: in the main stem. So it's a huge nutrient load.

2151
02:01:04,280 --> 02:01:07,879
Speaker 4: And so you have all this aquatic vegetation and algae

2152
02:01:07,960 --> 02:01:11,200
Speaker 4: growth because it's it's not meant to be there, right,

2153
02:01:11,880 --> 02:01:15,520
Speaker 4: you have barren tributaries that don't get those marine nutrients,

2154
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:19,160
Speaker 4: but they're all piled in the main stem, and why

2155
02:01:19,280 --> 02:01:20,800
Speaker 4: the main stam's green now?

2156
02:01:22,960 --> 02:01:24,640
Speaker 2: But dude, go ahead one more.

2157
02:01:25,760 --> 02:01:28,520
Speaker 8: You hinted at how far the sam will go earlier

2158
02:01:29,160 --> 02:01:31,840
Speaker 8: if those dams weren't there, Like what would be the

2159
02:01:32,080 --> 02:01:35,760
Speaker 8: terminal point for these these chanook Like how far would

2160
02:01:35,760 --> 02:01:37,200
Speaker 8: they go and where would they end up?

2161
02:01:38,280 --> 02:01:42,200
Speaker 4: I know, like distance wise in the Snake basin would

2162
02:01:42,240 --> 02:01:45,560
Speaker 4: be at Twin Falls because you have the falls that

2163
02:01:45,800 --> 02:01:48,880
Speaker 4: was it's huge. And then they went all the way

2164
02:01:48,960 --> 02:01:52,960
Speaker 4: up into the tributaries and the headwaters. And in Canada,

2165
02:01:53,640 --> 02:01:56,000
Speaker 4: you know that little piece of Montana where the Cootney

2166
02:01:56,200 --> 02:01:59,840
Speaker 4: is and and you know, like you have the win

2167
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:06,280
Speaker 4: actually the Metau, the Antaia and the Yakama Basin, so

2168
02:02:06,520 --> 02:02:10,160
Speaker 4: all up into the Cascades up into Canada around in Montana.

2169
02:02:10,560 --> 02:02:14,360
Speaker 4: How far it stretches Idaho and even Nevada right too.

2170
02:02:14,720 --> 02:02:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible, man.

2171
02:02:16,240 --> 02:02:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Steell, had they'd go all the way up the

2172
02:02:18,640 --> 02:02:21,280
Speaker 3: Yhi River there in the Nevada, you'd get them up

2173
02:02:21,320 --> 02:02:25,840
Speaker 3: the Salmon River up past Stanley almost a glean of

2174
02:02:25,880 --> 02:02:28,120
Speaker 3: Summit right at the headwaters the Salmon which is like

2175
02:02:28,640 --> 02:02:31,360
Speaker 3: forty miles north of sun Valley, so like twice as

2176
02:02:31,400 --> 02:02:33,320
Speaker 3: far as where you you were seeing them.

2177
02:02:33,560 --> 02:02:37,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and even like the other species, Like I always said,

2178
02:02:37,400 --> 02:02:42,520
Speaker 4: we're you know, comprehensive and holistic in our salmon recovery efforts,

2179
02:02:42,600 --> 02:02:45,480
Speaker 4: like lamprey, I think, you know, we put you know,

2180
02:02:45,560 --> 02:02:48,480
Speaker 4: their sacred food source to us. And they were also medicinal,

2181
02:02:48,720 --> 02:02:51,120
Speaker 4: you know, like because there's so oily that that was

2182
02:02:51,200 --> 02:02:53,760
Speaker 4: your skin salve and your ear drops and stuff when

2183
02:02:54,360 --> 02:02:56,920
Speaker 4: you know, before you could go to the drug store.

2184
02:02:57,120 --> 02:03:01,040
Speaker 4: And but the the benefit that they brought to the

2185
02:03:01,160 --> 02:03:04,360
Speaker 4: system and all of the nutrients in the forests and

2186
02:03:04,560 --> 02:03:09,040
Speaker 4: the animals, and you know, like forest habitat, like they're

2187
02:03:09,480 --> 02:03:13,840
Speaker 4: lacking those marine driven nutrients for the standing forests. And

2188
02:03:13,920 --> 02:03:17,640
Speaker 4: then also like management. I think back to I watched

2189
02:03:17,680 --> 02:03:21,800
Speaker 4: your hunting show Blue Mountain, Blue Mountain Bulls, and it

2190
02:03:21,920 --> 02:03:25,000
Speaker 4: was on fire, right there was forest fire. We're seeing

2191
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:28,800
Speaker 4: that more and more. It's forest management practices. But also

2192
02:03:29,520 --> 02:03:32,560
Speaker 4: you know, like we don't have the same nutrients coming

2193
02:03:32,640 --> 02:03:36,360
Speaker 4: into the forest to grow, but you know those that's

2194
02:03:36,400 --> 02:03:38,840
Speaker 4: the other side of the aspects. We will touch all

2195
02:03:39,000 --> 02:03:42,000
Speaker 4: aspects of it, and I think lamprey is a huge

2196
02:03:42,080 --> 02:03:45,400
Speaker 4: part of that. Doug showed me a picture. It's the

2197
02:03:45,480 --> 02:03:49,200
Speaker 4: Bruno River that flows into Nevada. It's they do watered

2198
02:03:49,240 --> 02:03:52,200
Speaker 4: this this dam or whatever they're standing on the cement.

2199
02:03:52,720 --> 02:03:57,000
Speaker 4: There's like thousands and thousands of lamprey and that's hundreds

2200
02:03:57,080 --> 02:04:00,840
Speaker 4: of miles from the ocean in this one little tributary.

2201
02:04:01,320 --> 02:04:05,480
Speaker 4: Imagine how many there were all throughout the basin, millions

2202
02:04:05,520 --> 02:04:09,200
Speaker 4: and millions, and all of that's gone now and there's

2203
02:04:09,240 --> 02:04:13,400
Speaker 4: an effect. It's a ripple effect through the entire ecosystem

2204
02:04:13,840 --> 02:04:16,480
Speaker 4: and so us just to try to put all these

2205
02:04:16,560 --> 02:04:21,680
Speaker 4: building blocks back together to create that better tomorrow, because

2206
02:04:21,720 --> 02:04:24,680
Speaker 4: we can't restore the salmon back to barren streams even

2207
02:04:24,760 --> 02:04:27,720
Speaker 4: looking at you know, benthic organisms and things like that,

2208
02:04:28,080 --> 02:04:32,680
Speaker 4: so you know, working with beavers and all of that stuff.

2209
02:04:32,760 --> 02:04:35,600
Speaker 4: So we're coming at it from all angles.

2210
02:04:35,920 --> 02:04:38,640
Speaker 3: And to bring it back to your simile parous fish. See,

2211
02:04:38,680 --> 02:04:42,000
Speaker 3: these fish died, right, they go up and they die,

2212
02:04:42,200 --> 02:04:45,480
Speaker 3: and they brought all those nutrients from the ocean back

2213
02:04:45,600 --> 02:04:48,560
Speaker 3: to the forest and they get hauled out by bears

2214
02:04:48,640 --> 02:04:51,560
Speaker 3: and otters and everything else and brought in and so

2215
02:04:51,680 --> 02:04:55,520
Speaker 3: it's the whole thing has been cut off. Those forests

2216
02:04:55,600 --> 02:04:59,800
Speaker 3: have lost all of that nutrient input for one hundred years,

2217
02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:00,720
Speaker 3: in fifty years.

2218
02:05:01,000 --> 02:05:04,200
Speaker 1: My brother's a fisheries biologists in Alaska and they've been

2219
02:05:04,280 --> 02:05:07,160
Speaker 1: tracking that by with marine isotopes.

2220
02:05:07,240 --> 02:05:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you have all these these like traceable elements.

2221
02:05:11,720 --> 02:05:13,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, Strontium is one that.

2222
02:05:13,160 --> 02:05:15,840
Speaker 2: That you know came from the ocean yep.

2223
02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:18,400
Speaker 1: And the way it got from the ocean into the

2224
02:05:18,480 --> 02:05:21,800
Speaker 1: mountains was on a fish, right, And then you look

2225
02:05:21,840 --> 02:05:25,800
Speaker 1: at how that stuff is used by vegetation and animals

2226
02:05:25,920 --> 02:05:29,200
Speaker 1: and it's like marine just a picture of like that

2227
02:05:29,360 --> 02:05:31,880
Speaker 1: fish are a way of like wheel barrowing in.

2228
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:35,960
Speaker 2: Nutrients into nutrient poor regions.

2229
02:05:36,640 --> 02:05:36,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2230
02:05:37,160 --> 02:05:38,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you pluck that out and it's like you're

2231
02:05:38,920 --> 02:05:40,200
Speaker 2: not fertilizing it anymore.

2232
02:05:40,440 --> 02:05:42,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you get up like I said, in

2233
02:05:42,480 --> 02:05:45,280
Speaker 3: that upper part of the salmon, it's just granitic soil.

2234
02:05:45,360 --> 02:05:48,760
Speaker 3: There's no nutrients to speak of up there. Ultra clear water.

2235
02:05:48,880 --> 02:05:52,920
Speaker 3: It's gin clear, but the nutrients aren't coming from what's running.

2236
02:05:53,040 --> 02:05:56,520
Speaker 2: So it used to get millions of pounds of natural fertilized.

2237
02:05:56,040 --> 02:05:57,360
Speaker 3: Exactly, you know, exactly.

2238
02:05:58,560 --> 02:06:01,040
Speaker 4: And the other thing you were, like you honestly you

2239
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:04,240
Speaker 4: were asking is there a way to operate the hydrosystem

2240
02:06:04,320 --> 02:06:07,520
Speaker 4: and still have salmon? But like I said, the ever

2241
02:06:07,640 --> 02:06:11,360
Speaker 4: changing goalposts and maybe things that would help would be

2242
02:06:11,760 --> 02:06:15,160
Speaker 4: like you know, bringing on renewables and also battery storage

2243
02:06:15,520 --> 02:06:18,320
Speaker 4: so you're not depending on the river to be your

2244
02:06:18,360 --> 02:06:21,440
Speaker 4: battery that you turn off and on. But then there's impacts,

2245
02:06:21,480 --> 02:06:24,160
Speaker 4: there's trade offs and everything you do. But that's where

2246
02:06:24,200 --> 02:06:26,240
Speaker 4: the tribes come in and advocate to do things in

2247
02:06:26,360 --> 02:06:29,640
Speaker 4: a responsible manner. Like all of our tribes have their own,

2248
02:06:30,280 --> 02:06:33,320
Speaker 4: you know, utilities. We're looking at different types of energy

2249
02:06:33,360 --> 02:06:36,200
Speaker 4: production and that was part of the agreement, and the

2250
02:06:36,280 --> 02:06:43,080
Speaker 4: litigation was funding for energy projects, you know, administered by

2251
02:06:43,120 --> 02:06:46,920
Speaker 4: the tribes like the Yakmination. They're working on a solar

2252
02:06:47,040 --> 02:06:51,200
Speaker 4: over irrigation project and also a dry pump storage project

2253
02:06:51,320 --> 02:06:55,520
Speaker 4: using rail railroad cars that you lift up and down

2254
02:06:55,600 --> 02:07:01,360
Speaker 4: the hill. And they're working at pump storage at several places.

2255
02:07:01,440 --> 02:07:05,240
Speaker 4: One is a really big issue for our tribes and

2256
02:07:05,360 --> 02:07:09,960
Speaker 4: especially the Acmination is a golden al pump storage project.

2257
02:07:10,080 --> 02:07:13,440
Speaker 4: It's they want to withdraw withdraw water from the Columbia,

2258
02:07:14,000 --> 02:07:17,720
Speaker 4: build a reservoir up on the hill, and then you know,

2259
02:07:17,840 --> 02:07:20,040
Speaker 4: they just pump it in a loop. You know, they

2260
02:07:20,520 --> 02:07:23,560
Speaker 4: generate power when they need it and then pump it

2261
02:07:23,680 --> 02:07:26,800
Speaker 4: back up off peak when it's cheap. And then so

2262
02:07:26,920 --> 02:07:29,840
Speaker 4: you have all these For one, they're boring through the

2263
02:07:29,920 --> 02:07:32,640
Speaker 4: mountain and then they want to tap into the John

2264
02:07:32,680 --> 02:07:36,160
Speaker 4: Day power line system to export that power. And then

2265
02:07:36,200 --> 02:07:39,960
Speaker 4: there's also a super fun site blow from an abandoned

2266
02:07:40,000 --> 02:07:43,880
Speaker 4: aluminum smelter that's never been cleaned up, and it's one

2267
02:07:43,920 --> 02:07:47,360
Speaker 4: of our sacred sites. It's like a push pump. It's

2268
02:07:47,480 --> 02:07:49,960
Speaker 4: like the mother of all roots. It's a place where

2269
02:07:50,080 --> 02:07:54,840
Speaker 4: we still go and gather and they just like, okay, yeah,

2270
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:57,240
Speaker 4: you move aside, and we're going to do this here now.

2271
02:07:57,480 --> 02:08:01,720
Speaker 4: And it's literally drilling a thirty diameter tunnel through the

2272
02:08:01,800 --> 02:08:05,240
Speaker 4: mountain and you'll see that also all in the surrounding

2273
02:08:05,360 --> 02:08:10,880
Speaker 4: area of the windmills, the wind generation, which like why

2274
02:08:10,960 --> 02:08:14,440
Speaker 4: does it have to be all on our you know,

2275
02:08:14,760 --> 02:08:19,040
Speaker 4: native lands, open lands, Like isn't there like low value

2276
02:08:19,080 --> 02:08:23,240
Speaker 4: agriculture that they could incorporate, agra, voltaics and things like that.

2277
02:08:23,480 --> 02:08:26,960
Speaker 4: It's always looking at what's cheapest and easiest, and that's

2278
02:08:27,160 --> 02:08:30,160
Speaker 4: like these public lands that they get a thirty year

2279
02:08:30,240 --> 02:08:32,600
Speaker 4: lease from and you know, once they go in and

2280
02:08:33,680 --> 02:08:36,360
Speaker 4: alter it, it's you know, it's never the same. And

2281
02:08:36,440 --> 02:08:40,280
Speaker 4: it impacts the withdrawals from the river for these things.

2282
02:08:40,320 --> 02:08:44,520
Speaker 4: And even the solar has huge impacts to the water

2283
02:08:44,640 --> 02:08:48,000
Speaker 4: table because they need water to clean the solar panels,

2284
02:08:48,400 --> 02:08:51,280
Speaker 4: so there's a huge water usage even with solar production.

2285
02:08:51,960 --> 02:08:54,960
Speaker 4: So what we're saying is we're not against all of

2286
02:08:55,000 --> 02:08:58,560
Speaker 4: these things, but like, let's not be in a rush

2287
02:08:58,680 --> 02:09:01,800
Speaker 4: to do it, and let's do things right, and we

2288
02:09:01,920 --> 02:09:04,800
Speaker 4: can't put all of these burdens on the backs of

2289
02:09:04,880 --> 02:09:08,200
Speaker 4: the salmon and all the users who depend on them,

2290
02:09:08,320 --> 02:09:11,920
Speaker 4: the tribal people and the community members, because we're the

2291
02:09:12,040 --> 02:09:15,560
Speaker 4: ones that these resources are extracted and all the burdens

2292
02:09:15,600 --> 02:09:18,240
Speaker 4: placed on us, and it's all goes outside. It's all

2293
02:09:18,880 --> 02:09:26,200
Speaker 4: international companies exporting power to California into these industrial users

2294
02:09:26,320 --> 02:09:29,480
Speaker 4: and data centers and things like that. It's like again

2295
02:09:29,560 --> 02:09:33,080
Speaker 4: and again the same story. So let's do things slow down,

2296
02:09:33,440 --> 02:09:36,120
Speaker 4: do things better, Like, yeah we can, we need to

2297
02:09:36,200 --> 02:09:40,400
Speaker 4: do better, find renewables, but let's do it right. So

2298
02:09:40,840 --> 02:09:43,920
Speaker 4: not just what's cheapest. What's cheapest today may not be

2299
02:09:44,040 --> 02:09:47,080
Speaker 4: in the long run because even if they maybe they

2300
02:09:47,120 --> 02:09:50,160
Speaker 4: if they would have put more maintenance into the hydrosystem,

2301
02:09:50,240 --> 02:09:52,880
Speaker 4: now we wouldn't be we wouldn't have these billion dollar

2302
02:09:53,000 --> 02:09:54,880
Speaker 4: backlogs and and things like that.

2303
02:09:55,520 --> 02:10:00,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, man, you guys aren me. Something's going to

2304
02:10:00,680 --> 02:10:01,680
Speaker 2: put on a good mood.

2305
02:10:02,760 --> 02:10:05,160
Speaker 8: They got some success stories we could go over.

2306
02:10:06,040 --> 02:10:08,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, pulls out too.

2307
02:10:08,880 --> 02:10:12,120
Speaker 6: There's like speaking of Boogeyman, Like I feel like we

2308
02:10:12,240 --> 02:10:16,320
Speaker 6: grew up in the lamprey was the devil of all.

2309
02:10:16,440 --> 02:10:19,480
Speaker 7: Devil was non native, right, Yeah, I know, but still,

2310
02:10:20,400 --> 02:10:22,520
Speaker 7: you know, like I've never heard of a good lamprey.

2311
02:10:22,760 --> 02:10:25,760
Speaker 6: And here you guys are trying to like promote it.

2312
02:10:25,840 --> 02:10:27,400
Speaker 7: So can we just touch on that a little bit, Yeah,

2313
02:10:27,400 --> 02:10:29,800
Speaker 7: because when we grew up in Michigan, it was like

2314
02:10:29,880 --> 02:10:33,080
Speaker 7: when you went to the hatchery we had, I can't

2315
02:10:33,080 --> 02:10:35,080
Speaker 7: remember the name of the hit hatchery. Now they're in

2316
02:10:35,200 --> 02:10:37,000
Speaker 7: Kalama Zoo, but like every year you'd go on a

2317
02:10:37,040 --> 02:10:39,800
Speaker 7: field trip there and like it would just be nothing

2318
02:10:39,920 --> 02:10:42,800
Speaker 7: but placards on the walls about how the lamp wege

2319
02:10:42,920 --> 02:10:44,120
Speaker 7: is killing off everything.

2320
02:10:44,160 --> 02:10:46,360
Speaker 1: It's like a system that a system. It's like any

2321
02:10:46,480 --> 02:10:50,240
Speaker 1: any invasive species story. It's a system that hadn't adapted

2322
02:10:50,600 --> 02:10:53,960
Speaker 1: with it, and then all of a sudden, tada, here's

2323
02:10:53,960 --> 02:10:57,760
Speaker 1: a bunch of lampreys and like every non native species story,

2324
02:10:57,880 --> 02:11:01,600
Speaker 1: it just explodes at great expense to native fish.

2325
02:11:02,680 --> 02:11:05,640
Speaker 2: And so then you hear like, oh, you know where

2326
02:11:05,720 --> 02:11:06,720
Speaker 2: they are from.

2327
02:11:07,320 --> 02:11:10,160
Speaker 6: But in your neck of the woods they co exist, Yeah, and.

2328
02:11:10,480 --> 02:11:15,800
Speaker 4: They're they have that relationship. Right. They're parasitic but not lethal.

2329
02:11:16,160 --> 02:11:18,280
Speaker 4: You could see sometimes you catch salmon it has a

2330
02:11:18,320 --> 02:11:20,680
Speaker 4: little round mark with the teeth.

2331
02:11:21,360 --> 02:11:23,960
Speaker 1: Lake trout, yeah, but in the Great Lakes system they

2332
02:11:24,000 --> 02:11:26,040
Speaker 1: were killing Yeah, because again, as a fish that was

2333
02:11:26,160 --> 02:11:27,120
Speaker 1: hadn't adapted with the.

2334
02:11:27,200 --> 02:11:28,960
Speaker 2: Risk, you know, yeah, so they do.

2335
02:11:29,240 --> 02:11:32,240
Speaker 4: They are parasitic, they but they don't kill their hosts

2336
02:11:32,520 --> 02:11:35,320
Speaker 4: like they drop off, and they can swim and migrate

2337
02:11:35,400 --> 02:11:38,160
Speaker 4: and everything. And then the benefit that they serve to

2338
02:11:38,240 --> 02:11:41,600
Speaker 4: the salmon is, you know, they're spawning in these tributaries

2339
02:11:41,640 --> 02:11:44,880
Speaker 4: as well, and then they're breaking down all the the

2340
02:11:45,000 --> 02:11:48,560
Speaker 4: detritus and things like that. So they're the filters and

2341
02:11:48,720 --> 02:11:50,720
Speaker 4: the cleaners of in the tributaries.

2342
02:11:50,800 --> 02:11:55,640
Speaker 3: And so yeah, it's and these are Pacific lamprey that

2343
02:11:55,760 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 3: we have. Those are sea lamprey in the Great Lakes, Okay.

2344
02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:00,480
Speaker 3: And you know that's like you said, that's an an

2345
02:12:00,520 --> 02:12:03,920
Speaker 3: invasive in the Great Lakes. These are these are native fish.

2346
02:12:04,240 --> 02:12:05,600
Speaker 6: And so where is the sea lamprey?

2347
02:12:05,680 --> 02:12:07,720
Speaker 3: Originally from East coast and.

2348
02:12:08,120 --> 02:12:11,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what happened was sea lamp rays couldn't get

2349
02:12:11,040 --> 02:12:14,840
Speaker 1: past Niagara Falls and so then when they got moved

2350
02:12:15,400 --> 02:12:18,640
Speaker 1: eventually like that was a natural barrier and so the

2351
02:12:18,760 --> 02:12:21,320
Speaker 1: upper systems never had them. And then eventually on ship

2352
02:12:21,440 --> 02:12:25,200
Speaker 1: ballast or whatever, lampreys got moved above a natural barrier

2353
02:12:25,240 --> 02:12:29,800
Speaker 1: and then and just decimated lake trout, you know, and

2354
02:12:29,880 --> 02:12:33,480
Speaker 1: they started all those different programs of poisoning spawning beds

2355
02:12:33,560 --> 02:12:36,640
Speaker 1: and it still goes on. Why, Like you're talking about

2356
02:12:36,720 --> 02:12:39,400
Speaker 1: like another Doge cut was there was a big dough

2357
02:12:39,520 --> 02:12:43,760
Speaker 1: there was a big Doge cut around like all this

2358
02:12:44,000 --> 02:12:46,240
Speaker 1: work to try to get lampreys under control in the

2359
02:12:46,280 --> 02:12:48,720
Speaker 1: Great Lakes system, and then they were acting the people

2360
02:12:48,800 --> 02:12:51,840
Speaker 1: that run the program, and that was when that.

2361
02:12:51,920 --> 02:12:52,240
Speaker 2: Was going on.

2362
02:12:52,360 --> 02:12:54,240
Speaker 1: I pointed out, like on the show, I pointed out

2363
02:12:54,320 --> 02:12:56,800
Speaker 1: that there's a little bit of a like you said,

2364
02:12:56,840 --> 02:12:59,800
Speaker 1: like paying attention to what the ramifications are. We've spent

2365
02:13:00,040 --> 02:13:02,839
Speaker 1: millions and millions and millions of dollars getting them under control,

2366
02:13:03,440 --> 02:13:05,640
Speaker 1: and then you and then you go to save a

2367
02:13:05,720 --> 02:13:08,840
Speaker 1: couple of bucks by ditching some dudes, you know, and

2368
02:13:08,920 --> 02:13:11,120
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, the whole investment goes out

2369
02:13:11,200 --> 02:13:13,000
Speaker 1: the window, you know, because you're trying to save a

2370
02:13:13,040 --> 02:13:18,240
Speaker 1: couple of dollars. Right, Yeah, but that's different watershed, different problems.

2371
02:13:18,480 --> 02:13:21,840
Speaker 6: Do people ever eat these pacific Yeah?

2372
02:13:22,120 --> 02:13:25,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, Actually I meant to bring some today, but I

2373
02:13:25,440 --> 02:13:27,560
Speaker 4: didn't get to meet up with my with my friend

2374
02:13:27,640 --> 02:13:29,960
Speaker 4: that she had some that she had put away that

2375
02:13:31,360 --> 02:13:34,320
Speaker 4: it was we dried them, you know, you eat them fresh,

2376
02:13:34,720 --> 02:13:38,720
Speaker 4: roast them, and they're really really rich. I'd say, it's

2377
02:13:38,760 --> 02:13:41,480
Speaker 4: an acquired taste. I'll send some to you guys. You

2378
02:13:41,520 --> 02:13:44,200
Speaker 4: can taste it some dried lamprey. But yeah, it's really

2379
02:13:44,280 --> 02:13:48,880
Speaker 4: oily fish. And you know, like that was highly sought after, right,

2380
02:13:49,040 --> 02:13:50,840
Speaker 4: you need those calories to.

2381
02:13:51,640 --> 02:13:53,720
Speaker 1: They're in a Scofia's cook But one of the things

2382
02:13:53,760 --> 02:13:57,200
Speaker 1: that when I was doing Scavenger's Guide to Oat Cuisine,

2383
02:13:57,240 --> 02:13:59,920
Speaker 1: one of the things I bombed out on was getting lamprey.

2384
02:14:00,160 --> 02:14:03,800
Speaker 1: But that was in the Scofias cookbooks like French French Preparation,

2385
02:14:03,920 --> 02:14:06,120
Speaker 1: French Lamprey Preparation, a.

2386
02:14:06,160 --> 02:14:08,800
Speaker 6: Bit like ru orl.

2387
02:14:08,960 --> 02:14:09,040
Speaker 5: Right.

2388
02:14:09,880 --> 02:14:12,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, yeah, you head, you think you're looking

2389
02:14:12,440 --> 02:14:12,640
Speaker 2: at it.

2390
02:14:12,680 --> 02:14:16,760
Speaker 3: Eel and they're crazy. Just the biology of them is

2391
02:14:16,800 --> 02:14:19,880
Speaker 3: pretty crazy. They're carlaginous fish. They're an ancient fish.

2392
02:14:20,080 --> 02:14:20,560
Speaker 2: Jallis.

2393
02:14:21,200 --> 02:14:24,000
Speaker 3: They're four hundred million years old, I mean, and they

2394
02:14:24,080 --> 02:14:26,520
Speaker 3: were here that long ago. I mean when that was

2395
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:30,560
Speaker 3: when you know, the continents were all connected, and they've

2396
02:14:30,600 --> 02:14:34,600
Speaker 3: been able to figure out how to survive until man

2397
02:14:34,720 --> 02:14:37,800
Speaker 3: put enough dams on the river that we've you know,

2398
02:14:37,880 --> 02:14:40,360
Speaker 3: they went down to critically low numbers in the Columbia,

2399
02:14:40,440 --> 02:14:43,280
Speaker 3: probably down to twenty thousand or so. It's we've had

2400
02:14:43,400 --> 02:14:46,520
Speaker 3: lamprey programs going for a while. Now it's the tribes

2401
02:14:46,560 --> 02:14:49,360
Speaker 3: and it is coming back, and we've got lamprey that

2402
02:14:49,440 --> 02:14:53,560
Speaker 3: we've got coming back to Idaho and other higher tributaries.

2403
02:14:53,720 --> 02:14:56,880
Speaker 3: They're really they're a weak swimmer, so getting over dams

2404
02:14:57,040 --> 02:14:59,640
Speaker 3: is a difficult thing. There's been a lot of technology

2405
02:14:59,680 --> 02:15:01,680
Speaker 3: stuff to try and figure out how to get a

2406
02:15:01,760 --> 02:15:02,760
Speaker 3: move but it's getting.

2407
02:15:02,640 --> 02:15:05,640
Speaker 1: You go to like the Yukon costco quem Colbac River

2408
02:15:06,320 --> 02:15:09,280
Speaker 1: that's like an indigenous subsistence fishery still with lampreys.

2409
02:15:09,480 --> 02:15:14,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was fifty percent at each mainstem project that

2410
02:15:14,240 --> 02:15:17,680
Speaker 4: you'd lose of adult lamprey returning. So that's why it

2411
02:15:17,800 --> 02:15:20,800
Speaker 4: was the tribes that took the initiative to start the

2412
02:15:21,000 --> 02:15:25,200
Speaker 4: lamprey translocation so collect that Jonnaville dam and then take

2413
02:15:25,240 --> 02:15:28,440
Speaker 4: them up to the tributaries and that's how we're starting

2414
02:15:28,480 --> 02:15:31,000
Speaker 4: to see fish returning. So we want to do more

2415
02:15:31,040 --> 02:15:35,440
Speaker 4: of that and also installing passage for lamprey, like a

2416
02:15:35,480 --> 02:15:38,240
Speaker 4: wetted wall, you know, for them to work their way

2417
02:15:38,320 --> 02:15:40,960
Speaker 4: up because they can't go up the fish ladders because

2418
02:15:41,000 --> 02:15:45,400
Speaker 4: there's you know, perpendicular surfaces there. Yeah, so they're trying

2419
02:15:45,440 --> 02:15:47,720
Speaker 4: to swim up. They can't make it, but they could

2420
02:15:47,760 --> 02:15:50,440
Speaker 4: go all the way up that wetted wall, and so

2421
02:15:50,560 --> 02:15:54,880
Speaker 4: we're looking at adult passage at the dam's translocation. Another

2422
02:15:54,960 --> 02:15:59,320
Speaker 4: hard thing is a lot of the juveniles get sucked

2423
02:15:59,360 --> 02:16:01,800
Speaker 4: out into ear because you know, it's like a little

2424
02:16:01,880 --> 02:16:06,000
Speaker 4: worm in the slats on a screen. You know, they

2425
02:16:06,040 --> 02:16:09,800
Speaker 4: would have to be outrageously small to keep the lamprey out.

2426
02:16:10,120 --> 02:16:12,480
Speaker 2: So they wound up going through sprinkler systems.

2427
02:16:12,720 --> 02:16:15,440
Speaker 4: End up in all the irrigation canals and whatnot, and

2428
02:16:15,560 --> 02:16:18,640
Speaker 4: we do salvages when they shut down the canal, we'll

2429
02:16:18,680 --> 02:16:20,880
Speaker 4: go in there and try to salvage as many of

2430
02:16:20,960 --> 02:16:21,360
Speaker 4: the jus.

2431
02:16:23,160 --> 02:16:26,360
Speaker 3: And they're super complicated, so the life history of them

2432
02:16:26,440 --> 02:16:29,400
Speaker 3: and so everything you learned about salmon doesn't really apply.

2433
02:16:29,840 --> 02:16:32,600
Speaker 3: So it's trying to relearn all these things. They don't

2434
02:16:32,680 --> 02:16:36,200
Speaker 3: home like a salmon. If you get it in a

2435
02:16:36,280 --> 02:16:38,680
Speaker 3: particular area, they're going to come back to that spot

2436
02:16:39,160 --> 02:16:41,160
Speaker 3: to spawn, and lamprey don't.

2437
02:16:41,320 --> 02:16:44,240
Speaker 2: So it's well, they don't have like their site fidelity

2438
02:16:44,280 --> 02:16:45,200
Speaker 2: that just go wherever they go.

2439
02:16:45,400 --> 02:16:48,680
Speaker 8: They're just distributed by currents.

2440
02:16:48,879 --> 02:16:52,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so a degree there is some that come back

2441
02:16:52,120 --> 02:16:54,760
Speaker 3: and they do have a pheromone that they give off,

2442
02:16:54,879 --> 02:16:58,240
Speaker 3: and if there's juveniles there, they'll come back to that location.

2443
02:16:58,840 --> 02:17:02,640
Speaker 3: But it wasn't necessary where they were born, so it's

2444
02:17:03,680 --> 02:17:05,840
Speaker 3: complicated to try and restor them, and really it needs

2445
02:17:06,080 --> 02:17:08,760
Speaker 3: a broader coast wide effort then if you need to

2446
02:17:08,879 --> 02:17:11,800
Speaker 3: improve it in a lot of streams, not just You

2447
02:17:11,920 --> 02:17:14,600
Speaker 3: can't just do a stream like you do with salmon

2448
02:17:14,800 --> 02:17:17,120
Speaker 3: and expect that that homing is going to help you

2449
02:17:17,240 --> 02:17:19,039
Speaker 3: out and they'll come back. Isn't going to happen.

2450
02:17:19,240 --> 02:17:22,480
Speaker 2: And they're anagronous, but not the word I was saying earlier.

2451
02:17:22,840 --> 02:17:26,640
Speaker 3: They're not similar Paris. They're inter ol Paris. Yeah, they

2452
02:17:26,720 --> 02:17:30,520
Speaker 3: can repeat spawn, although not that much. And we don't

2453
02:17:30,560 --> 02:17:32,879
Speaker 3: know so much of it. We just don't know about

2454
02:17:32,879 --> 02:17:35,000
Speaker 3: it because it hasn't been a sexy fish to study.

2455
02:17:35,200 --> 02:17:37,600
Speaker 4: No, right, yeah, well there's a lot going on with

2456
02:17:37,720 --> 02:17:40,960
Speaker 4: them now. And what's crazy. It's funny, but it's not.

2457
02:17:41,800 --> 02:17:44,560
Speaker 4: We were at the dam right Bonneville down where they

2458
02:17:44,600 --> 02:17:46,920
Speaker 4: have the fish bewing windows and that's where they count

2459
02:17:47,320 --> 02:17:52,120
Speaker 4: right back in the nineties, the core actually used to

2460
02:17:52,240 --> 02:17:55,360
Speaker 4: have an air blast system. Those damn lamprey getting in

2461
02:17:55,480 --> 02:17:57,800
Speaker 4: the way. They would air blast them off.

2462
02:17:58,600 --> 02:18:01,560
Speaker 3: Oh really yeah, yeah, looked like a series of moss,

2463
02:18:01,720 --> 02:18:03,840
Speaker 3: you know. Or they'd be attached to the window and

2464
02:18:04,120 --> 02:18:07,520
Speaker 3: it would obstruct the view to count salm. And so

2465
02:18:07,600 --> 02:18:09,800
Speaker 3: they blast them off every ten or fifteen minutes, and

2466
02:18:09,800 --> 02:18:11,160
Speaker 3: they push him down the ladder.

2467
02:18:11,400 --> 02:18:11,520
Speaker 2: Yea.

2468
02:18:11,760 --> 02:18:15,400
Speaker 1: My brother Danny is a salmon biologist in Alaska. He

2469
02:18:15,560 --> 02:18:17,640
Speaker 1: works on that stable isotope issues and a bunch of

2470
02:18:17,680 --> 02:18:21,800
Speaker 1: other stuff, a lot of like warm water issues and

2471
02:18:21,879 --> 02:18:26,840
Speaker 1: other things, but impacts warm water. One of his first,

2472
02:18:27,000 --> 02:18:30,080
Speaker 1: I think his first paid fisheries gig was he was

2473
02:18:30,120 --> 02:18:32,640
Speaker 1: in walla wall of Washington and he was paid to

2474
02:18:32,680 --> 02:18:34,279
Speaker 1: sit there looking out that window.

2475
02:18:35,600 --> 02:18:39,760
Speaker 2: Count fish. This is one of his first paid gigs. Man. Yeah,

2476
02:18:40,160 --> 02:18:42,880
Speaker 2: living like living in basically living inside the damn counting

2477
02:18:42,920 --> 02:18:44,280
Speaker 2: fish in the window and writing it down.

2478
02:18:44,800 --> 02:18:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2479
02:18:47,360 --> 02:18:49,000
Speaker 2: Well, man, I feel like we could go.

2480
02:18:49,080 --> 02:18:52,800
Speaker 5: On all day, but we didn't even hit success stories

2481
02:18:53,440 --> 02:18:54,480
Speaker 5: or more success stories.

2482
02:18:54,600 --> 02:18:57,360
Speaker 2: Well yeah, who can conveniently give us some success stories?

2483
02:18:58,520 --> 02:18:58,640
Speaker 4: Uh?

2484
02:18:58,840 --> 02:19:00,600
Speaker 8: Well, we can just read them off from them, will

2485
02:19:00,680 --> 02:19:05,000
Speaker 8: have them give us the short version. Steel had reconditioning.

2486
02:19:06,640 --> 02:19:09,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's a thing I've been working on for

2487
02:19:09,480 --> 02:19:14,520
Speaker 3: twenty five years, along with a really good group of people.

2488
02:19:15,480 --> 02:19:20,040
Speaker 3: But basically so Steell had our ittero Paris. They repeat spawn.

2489
02:19:20,120 --> 02:19:22,560
Speaker 3: There's they're rainbow trout, so they can spawn and they

2490
02:19:22,600 --> 02:19:25,440
Speaker 3: can spawn again. They'll go up to whatever river they're

2491
02:19:25,480 --> 02:19:27,760
Speaker 3: in and then they spawn and they try to go

2492
02:19:27,879 --> 02:19:30,440
Speaker 3: back downstream and go back to the ocean. And in

2493
02:19:30,560 --> 02:19:34,680
Speaker 3: a totally natural system, the number of repeat spawners that

2494
02:19:34,760 --> 02:19:38,080
Speaker 3: you have in your population will range anywhere from you know,

2495
02:19:38,240 --> 02:19:41,280
Speaker 3: five to six percent up to maybe thirty or forty percent.

2496
02:19:41,480 --> 02:19:43,760
Speaker 3: It's kind of dependent on how close you are to

2497
02:19:43,800 --> 02:19:46,120
Speaker 3: the ocean. Closer to the ocean, the higher you get

2498
02:19:46,200 --> 02:19:50,520
Speaker 3: of these repeat spawners through the hydrosystem. They don't don't

2499
02:19:50,560 --> 02:19:52,760
Speaker 3: make it. I mean, it is definitely not set up

2500
02:19:52,840 --> 02:19:55,880
Speaker 3: for a large fished pass downstream. And a lot of

2501
02:19:55,959 --> 02:19:59,600
Speaker 3: them will go through the bypasses, the juvenile bypass system,

2502
02:19:59,640 --> 02:20:03,080
Speaker 3: and they're they get screened off and we collect those fish,

2503
02:20:03,240 --> 02:20:07,440
Speaker 3: collect them at lower Granite other places. We take those

2504
02:20:07,520 --> 02:20:11,080
Speaker 3: fish then into a hatchery, put them in tanks. We've

2505
02:20:11,120 --> 02:20:17,800
Speaker 3: got specialized fish culture, fish care, and well we'll feed

2506
02:20:17,920 --> 02:20:21,320
Speaker 3: them to where they survive and then they'll remature. And

2507
02:20:21,440 --> 02:20:24,320
Speaker 3: this has been concentrated on wild fish, so there's a

2508
02:20:24,360 --> 02:20:26,880
Speaker 3: fish that successfully spawned. There were no eggs in it

2509
02:20:26,959 --> 02:20:30,120
Speaker 3: when we collected them in that damn they go up.

2510
02:20:30,600 --> 02:20:35,000
Speaker 3: We've reconditioned them, release them either that fall or some

2511
02:20:35,200 --> 02:20:37,959
Speaker 3: of them will skip and they won't spawn again until

2512
02:20:37,959 --> 02:20:40,520
Speaker 3: the following fall. Will hold them for eighteen months, keep

2513
02:20:40,600 --> 02:20:43,160
Speaker 3: feeding them. We let them go downstream of where we

2514
02:20:43,280 --> 02:20:45,880
Speaker 3: had collected them, and then they go back upstream and

2515
02:20:46,000 --> 02:20:46,760
Speaker 3: spawn and.

2516
02:20:46,800 --> 02:20:48,480
Speaker 2: They skip their whole return to the ocean.

2517
02:20:48,600 --> 02:20:53,320
Speaker 3: Right, So we circumvented that. Yeah, yeah, so.

2518
02:20:53,400 --> 02:20:56,000
Speaker 1: You've cut out whatever mortality happens out on the open

2519
02:20:56,040 --> 02:20:56,959
Speaker 1: ocean exactly.

2520
02:20:57,360 --> 02:21:02,000
Speaker 4: Our communications director he made it a little pamphlet and

2521
02:21:02,120 --> 02:21:05,439
Speaker 4: it shows like the steelhead spa where he's kicked.

2522
02:21:05,240 --> 02:21:09,360
Speaker 1: Bag No kid really yeah, and you'll say like, we'll

2523
02:21:09,400 --> 02:21:12,160
Speaker 1: take care of everything, brother, Yeah, and then when you're

2524
02:21:12,160 --> 02:21:13,520
Speaker 1: ready to go again, we'll let you go.

2525
02:21:13,760 --> 02:21:16,520
Speaker 3: And they home back to the same stream and we have.

2526
02:21:16,720 --> 02:21:17,960
Speaker 2: How many fish? Can you actually do that?

2527
02:21:18,120 --> 02:21:20,560
Speaker 3: Well, it's a it's a it's a safety net thing, right.

2528
02:21:20,600 --> 02:21:23,800
Speaker 3: I Mean, you got these low number numbers of fish

2529
02:21:23,879 --> 02:21:26,680
Speaker 3: in certain populations and you can target it to those

2530
02:21:26,760 --> 02:21:29,280
Speaker 3: streams by having a weird some way of collecting to

2531
02:21:29,400 --> 02:21:31,840
Speaker 3: that stream, and especially in a place where you're really

2532
02:21:31,879 --> 02:21:35,600
Speaker 3: worried about them blinking out, or you get bigger collections,

2533
02:21:35,680 --> 02:21:38,440
Speaker 3: more generalized, like Lower Granite has the whole Snake River.

2534
02:21:39,120 --> 02:21:43,119
Speaker 3: We release them though in the fish one hundred maybe

2535
02:21:43,200 --> 02:21:45,560
Speaker 3: or one hundred and fifty, we've been concentrated. We've been

2536
02:21:45,600 --> 02:21:49,000
Speaker 3: doing it at a research scale. This is now I'm

2537
02:21:49,120 --> 02:21:51,880
Speaker 3: trying to do It's finally now we're gearing up to

2538
02:21:51,959 --> 02:21:53,920
Speaker 3: do this as a production scale. It's in those first

2539
02:21:54,000 --> 02:21:57,840
Speaker 3: tried project at a production scale. But there's fish that

2540
02:21:57,959 --> 02:22:00,959
Speaker 3: go back to the Imnaha, the upper sand and remember

2541
02:22:01,080 --> 02:22:05,280
Speaker 3: the Grand drawn, the clear water, the sea sash, everywhere

2542
02:22:05,600 --> 02:22:05,880
Speaker 3: this is.

2543
02:22:05,920 --> 02:22:09,800
Speaker 1: But it'll like, it's great, it's great wildfish, and I

2544
02:22:09,879 --> 02:22:11,760
Speaker 1: know we're looking for positives. It's great, but it's like

2545
02:22:11,920 --> 02:22:13,720
Speaker 1: that is sort of like definite, you know, the term

2546
02:22:13,800 --> 02:22:17,960
Speaker 1: conservation dependent. That is like like the poster child of

2547
02:22:18,040 --> 02:22:22,960
Speaker 1: conservation dependence, right, you know, I mean we have the

2548
02:22:23,000 --> 02:22:27,240
Speaker 1: fish because we literally handle it and care for it.

2549
02:22:27,800 --> 02:22:32,880
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, it's it's great, but but I mean,

2550
02:22:33,120 --> 02:22:36,440
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to be Debbie Downer. It's great,

2551
02:22:36,480 --> 02:22:38,320
Speaker 1: but it's like, holy shit, has it come to that?

2552
02:22:38,760 --> 02:22:40,680
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean, that's the problem is

2553
02:22:40,800 --> 02:22:44,120
Speaker 3: that wild steelhead recovery nothing's really worked.

2554
02:22:44,360 --> 02:22:45,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, you do supplementation.

2555
02:22:45,800 --> 02:22:47,640
Speaker 3: Some things that have worked we've been able to pull

2556
02:22:47,720 --> 02:22:50,800
Speaker 3: off with Simon hasn't worked for steel hell. We get

2557
02:22:50,879 --> 02:22:53,480
Speaker 3: hatchery fish, but getting more wild.

2558
02:22:53,640 --> 02:22:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2559
02:22:53,879 --> 02:22:56,119
Speaker 1: All this conversation about how do you get these big

2560
02:22:56,240 --> 02:22:58,680
Speaker 1: ass fish out of the ocean to their spawning grounds,

2561
02:22:58,680 --> 02:23:00,600
Speaker 1: and with steelhead, it's like, Okay, let's get these big

2562
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:03,320
Speaker 1: ass fish out of the ocean up to their spawning grounds,

2563
02:23:03,680 --> 02:23:06,480
Speaker 1: back to the ocean, right yep.

2564
02:23:06,520 --> 02:23:07,720
Speaker 2: And you're like, oh, that's tricky.

2565
02:23:08,320 --> 02:23:08,560
Speaker 3: Yep.

2566
02:23:08,680 --> 02:23:10,520
Speaker 2: Right, they're not going back down yep.

2567
02:23:10,800 --> 02:23:14,280
Speaker 8: What about like Snake River, fall Chanook and then Sake

2568
02:23:14,480 --> 02:23:18,080
Speaker 8: and Cooho. We've got those on the list for your

2569
02:23:18,120 --> 02:23:18,959
Speaker 8: success stories.

2570
02:23:20,440 --> 02:23:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2571
02:23:20,720 --> 02:23:24,120
Speaker 3: So in about the early nineties, Snake River fall Chanook

2572
02:23:24,120 --> 02:23:27,920
Speaker 3: were under one hundred fish at Lower Granite and Nesper's

2573
02:23:28,000 --> 02:23:33,240
Speaker 3: tribe had a patchy program for fall Chinook, and that

2574
02:23:33,720 --> 02:23:36,760
Speaker 3: stock has rebounded to where the peak was about ninety

2575
02:23:36,840 --> 02:23:40,480
Speaker 3: thousand fish in the Snake River. I think it's hovering

2576
02:23:40,600 --> 02:23:44,000
Speaker 3: now around anywhere from thirty to fifty thousand with.

2577
02:23:44,080 --> 02:23:45,119
Speaker 2: Some natural reproduction.

2578
02:23:45,320 --> 02:23:47,400
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, so you get some natural So the

2579
02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:50,960
Speaker 3: idea there is to collect the fish and then out

2580
02:23:51,240 --> 02:23:54,640
Speaker 3: outplant those juveniles so that they'll return to the So.

2581
02:23:54,760 --> 02:23:57,920
Speaker 2: There you're helping them. You're helping them get back to

2582
02:23:58,000 --> 02:23:58,440
Speaker 2: the ocean.

2583
02:23:58,600 --> 02:24:02,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of that. It's integrated hatchery program. So you're

2584
02:24:02,320 --> 02:24:05,440
Speaker 3: taking in wildfish as well as the hatchery fish trained

2585
02:24:05,480 --> 02:24:09,520
Speaker 3: to maintain the genetic you know, your genetic integrity.

2586
02:24:09,560 --> 02:24:11,760
Speaker 1: And and those are getting back home on their own fins.

2587
02:24:11,760 --> 02:24:13,880
Speaker 1: I mean they're going back up to Yeah, they'll later

2588
02:24:14,320 --> 02:24:15,080
Speaker 1: make it up on their own.

2589
02:24:15,120 --> 02:24:17,520
Speaker 3: Now there's fisheries. Now, there wasn't a false when I

2590
02:24:17,640 --> 02:24:20,560
Speaker 3: was in college. There wasn't falseho fisheries in the in

2591
02:24:20,640 --> 02:24:21,240
Speaker 3: the Snake River.

2592
02:24:21,320 --> 02:24:23,440
Speaker 6: There are how big as a fall chinook there on

2593
02:24:23,520 --> 02:24:24,000
Speaker 6: that river.

2594
02:24:24,600 --> 02:24:29,080
Speaker 3: Twenty five twenty twenty five pounds twenty to thirty Yeah. Yeah,

2595
02:24:30,440 --> 02:24:33,520
Speaker 3: and it's fisheries all the way down as well as

2596
02:24:34,040 --> 02:24:34,680
Speaker 3: off the coast.

2597
02:24:35,400 --> 02:24:38,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, dudes are catching those fish, catching them everywhere.

2598
02:24:39,440 --> 02:24:41,840
Speaker 8: What about Soke and Coho, It says I you had

2599
02:24:41,959 --> 02:24:43,040
Speaker 8: some reintroductions.

2600
02:24:43,440 --> 02:24:46,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that was a tribally led effort. Like how

2601
02:24:46,720 --> 02:24:50,360
Speaker 4: I had mentioned a lot of the hatchery production being

2602
02:24:50,400 --> 02:24:53,280
Speaker 4: in the lower River, which was unnatural. You're just feeding

2603
02:24:53,360 --> 02:24:58,320
Speaker 4: your your sport and commercial harvest and totally excluding the

2604
02:24:58,440 --> 02:25:02,280
Speaker 4: tribes and everybody inland. So it was we started the

2605
02:25:02,400 --> 02:25:07,959
Speaker 4: coho reintroductions back in the nineties and taking juveniles from

2606
02:25:08,000 --> 02:25:11,359
Speaker 4: the lower River and taking them back into their tributaries

2607
02:25:11,600 --> 02:25:15,480
Speaker 4: like in the Metau and the Wenatchee, the Yakma, and

2608
02:25:16,080 --> 02:25:19,200
Speaker 4: that was highly successful and so that was replicated by

2609
02:25:19,200 --> 02:25:24,199
Speaker 4: the Nez Perce tribe and it was actually the state

2610
02:25:24,240 --> 02:25:29,000
Speaker 4: of Idaho has a law against reintroduction programs, and it

2611
02:25:29,280 --> 02:25:34,200
Speaker 4: was by by night that Actually it's our tribal chairman now,

2612
02:25:34,440 --> 02:25:37,400
Speaker 4: Gerald Lewis, he worked in fisheries for a number of

2613
02:25:37,520 --> 02:25:39,800
Speaker 4: years and it was back when he was in fisheries,

2614
02:25:40,120 --> 02:25:42,400
Speaker 4: he drove the truck in the middle of the night

2615
02:25:43,320 --> 02:25:46,600
Speaker 4: of taking those coho up to the Nez Perce tribe

2616
02:25:47,040 --> 02:25:51,520
Speaker 4: so that they could reintroduce them. It was illegally, yeah,

2617
02:25:52,080 --> 02:25:54,320
Speaker 4: so under thread of arrest by.

2618
02:25:54,240 --> 02:25:54,959
Speaker 2: The state.

2619
02:25:56,879 --> 02:25:59,520
Speaker 1: And because because they don't want to then create like

2620
02:25:59,640 --> 02:26:01,200
Speaker 1: new e s a issues for themselves.

2621
02:26:01,320 --> 02:26:05,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're responsibilities for maintaining and and all that type

2622
02:26:05,080 --> 02:26:05,360
Speaker 4: of thing.

2623
02:26:05,680 --> 02:26:12,000
Speaker 1: So I don't know, the leveless cynicism unbelievable. Yeah, So

2624
02:26:12,600 --> 02:26:16,600
Speaker 1: like don't put some there because then will be obligated

2625
02:26:16,640 --> 02:26:18,920
Speaker 1: to like do something to allow them to live.

2626
02:26:20,360 --> 02:26:25,080
Speaker 4: So that the cohen reintroductions were highly successful. We brought

2627
02:26:25,360 --> 02:26:27,959
Speaker 4: we started out bringing in juveniles and we'd hold them

2628
02:26:28,040 --> 02:26:31,080
Speaker 4: in acclamation ponds for a month or so and then

2629
02:26:31,200 --> 02:26:34,280
Speaker 4: release them from there. And then as they started returning,

2630
02:26:34,520 --> 02:26:38,160
Speaker 4: then we started building things out into a full supplementation

2631
02:26:38,360 --> 02:26:41,920
Speaker 4: program where we're getting getting our own brood to spawn

2632
02:26:42,080 --> 02:26:45,560
Speaker 4: and all these generations and and then we're still incorporating

2633
02:26:45,600 --> 02:26:49,000
Speaker 4: some of the lower river like as needed. But yeah,

2634
02:26:49,080 --> 02:26:52,680
Speaker 4: it's almost becoming a self sufficient program. And but also

2635
02:26:53,000 --> 02:26:57,760
Speaker 4: you have the the anti hatchery group, but we're leading

2636
02:26:58,080 --> 02:27:02,360
Speaker 4: on the genetics side where we're incorporating, you know, trying

2637
02:27:02,400 --> 02:27:05,160
Speaker 4: to have that genetic diversity, and we use stocks that

2638
02:27:05,280 --> 02:27:10,480
Speaker 4: were like similar to this area and distance and things

2639
02:27:10,600 --> 02:27:13,080
Speaker 4: like that. But you know, we're just being mindful of

2640
02:27:13,640 --> 02:27:17,520
Speaker 4: the work that we do. So there wouldn't be there

2641
02:27:17,520 --> 02:27:20,800
Speaker 4: wouldn't be Coho above Bonneville Dam if it wasn't for

2642
02:27:20,879 --> 02:27:23,680
Speaker 4: the efforts of the tribes. And I always credit our

2643
02:27:24,000 --> 02:27:28,160
Speaker 4: senior most biologist, Tom Scribner with Yakuma, and he hates

2644
02:27:28,200 --> 02:27:30,720
Speaker 4: that I call him out all the time. But that

2645
02:27:30,920 --> 02:27:34,120
Speaker 4: was his life's work. He did years and years of

2646
02:27:34,240 --> 02:27:38,279
Speaker 4: advocacy and then also fighting with our state co managers

2647
02:27:38,360 --> 02:27:41,320
Speaker 4: because they were against it because there was worries because

2648
02:27:42,120 --> 02:27:44,520
Speaker 4: you know, coho are more voracious eaters and they were

2649
02:27:44,560 --> 02:27:47,720
Speaker 4: worried about them eating the spring chinook. It's like these

2650
02:27:47,840 --> 02:27:51,640
Speaker 4: things coexisted for millions of years. It's like we just

2651
02:27:51,720 --> 02:27:54,600
Speaker 4: need to get them back and they'll work out their

2652
02:27:54,680 --> 02:27:57,640
Speaker 4: areas and where they live and you know, like it

2653
02:27:57,720 --> 02:28:00,320
Speaker 4: took us to mess them up, let's help them cover.

2654
02:28:00,920 --> 02:28:04,400
Speaker 4: And the same thing with the Sakai reintroduction. You know,

2655
02:28:04,520 --> 02:28:07,800
Speaker 4: we were working with the Okanagan Nation Alliance in Canada

2656
02:28:08,400 --> 02:28:14,040
Speaker 4: collecting fish at Wanapum Dam, which is just upstream of

2657
02:28:14,080 --> 02:28:17,400
Speaker 4: the Snake River because the Snake River Sakai are listed,

2658
02:28:17,560 --> 02:28:23,520
Speaker 4: so that's what that has all the ESA restrictions and concerns.

2659
02:28:23,640 --> 02:28:27,480
Speaker 4: So we're collecting above the snake and then so we're

2660
02:28:28,000 --> 02:28:32,600
Speaker 4: did reintroduction programs into the Yakoma into Lake klee Elam

2661
02:28:35,120 --> 02:28:39,040
Speaker 4: and we just completed a passage project at Lake cole

2662
02:28:39,120 --> 02:28:42,680
Speaker 4: Elam because that was used as an irrigation reservoir. You know,

2663
02:28:42,879 --> 02:28:44,960
Speaker 4: it was checked up and so there was no passage

2664
02:28:45,040 --> 02:28:47,840
Speaker 4: and that's how that's how the sakai were extrapated, and

2665
02:28:47,920 --> 02:28:52,640
Speaker 4: the tributaries was from irrigation error reclamation. You know, these dams,

2666
02:28:53,240 --> 02:28:58,680
Speaker 4: these diversions without passage, no fish screens and dewatering events

2667
02:28:58,760 --> 02:29:01,080
Speaker 4: and things like that. So you know, the tribes have

2668
02:29:01,200 --> 02:29:04,800
Speaker 4: really been working together with bo R and the local

2669
02:29:04,840 --> 02:29:09,720
Speaker 4: irrigation districts to be able to get fish, like how

2670
02:29:09,800 --> 02:29:12,720
Speaker 4: can we work together. The Akama Basin Integrated Plan is

2671
02:29:12,800 --> 02:29:16,280
Speaker 4: a great success story of that. They got this like

2672
02:29:16,560 --> 02:29:20,600
Speaker 4: thirty million dollar fish passage structure at Lake Leelam for

2673
02:29:20,720 --> 02:29:23,640
Speaker 4: juveniles to out migrate. They'll still have to truck the

2674
02:29:23,760 --> 02:29:26,520
Speaker 4: adults over the dam, but they could go up into

2675
02:29:26,560 --> 02:29:29,280
Speaker 4: the tributaries and Spahan, we're in the lake and have

2676
02:29:29,520 --> 02:29:33,080
Speaker 4: access to get out. So that's been a huge success story.

2677
02:29:33,160 --> 02:29:36,320
Speaker 4: And we've been talking working with the Nez Presh tribe.

2678
02:29:36,560 --> 02:29:40,520
Speaker 4: They want to do reintroductions into Lake Wallawa for skei

2679
02:29:40,600 --> 02:29:45,280
Speaker 4: as all awesome, Yeah, but that's really complicated because you know,

2680
02:29:45,560 --> 02:29:49,480
Speaker 4: like with the ESA listings and what poor shape the

2681
02:29:50,160 --> 02:29:53,320
Speaker 4: Snake River Sakai are in. So they're collecting at Bonnaville

2682
02:29:53,360 --> 02:29:56,879
Speaker 4: Dam and they actually utilize our genetic technology they collect

2683
02:29:56,920 --> 02:30:00,920
Speaker 4: at Bonnaville Dam and then they screen out and you know,

2684
02:30:01,720 --> 02:30:02,240
Speaker 4: they could.

2685
02:30:02,080 --> 02:30:04,720
Speaker 1: See the kidney. You can screen out the EESA ones

2686
02:30:04,760 --> 02:30:08,880
Speaker 1: from the nun Yeah. So like you we can move

2687
02:30:09,040 --> 02:30:11,880
Speaker 1: you buddy, you got to stay put, no kid Yeah.

2688
02:30:12,520 --> 02:30:16,400
Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the big success stories too,

2689
02:30:16,560 --> 02:30:20,880
Speaker 3: is collaboration. I mean through the six sovereigns stuff that

2690
02:30:21,200 --> 02:30:24,200
Speaker 3: that Danella was talking about with the other with states

2691
02:30:24,240 --> 02:30:28,720
Speaker 3: of Oregon, Washington, the Treaty tribes we work great with

2692
02:30:29,320 --> 02:30:32,440
Speaker 3: and at Bonneville. Dan that's an integrated crew that we

2693
02:30:32,560 --> 02:30:35,000
Speaker 3: have with the Sea Lion project. It's got people from

2694
02:30:35,160 --> 02:30:40,360
Speaker 3: State of Idaho, Oregon, Washington, and Critfic that we have

2695
02:30:40,560 --> 02:30:43,680
Speaker 3: the all working together. It's under the same permit and

2696
02:30:43,800 --> 02:30:48,200
Speaker 3: it's all jointly done. So from the dark times that

2697
02:30:48,320 --> 02:30:51,840
Speaker 3: you talked about earlier, it's it's we're not all the

2698
02:30:51,879 --> 02:30:54,400
Speaker 3: way there, but it's better. It's looking it's a lot

2699
02:30:54,480 --> 02:30:57,760
Speaker 3: better than when I started. It's it's it's it's improving,

2700
02:30:57,840 --> 02:31:00,600
Speaker 3: and it gives you hope that I think, you know,

2701
02:31:00,760 --> 02:31:01,600
Speaker 3: it can get better.

2702
02:31:01,959 --> 02:31:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that man.

2703
02:31:04,840 --> 02:31:06,840
Speaker 1: One of the things I appreciate about the conversation is

2704
02:31:06,840 --> 02:31:10,120
Speaker 1: I've always looked at the whole issue being that be

2705
02:31:10,240 --> 02:31:14,160
Speaker 1: like I always looked at it like binary be that

2706
02:31:14,280 --> 02:31:19,080
Speaker 1: the dam stay and the fish go, or the dams

2707
02:31:19,160 --> 02:31:22,160
Speaker 1: go and the fish stay. And it's encouraging to think

2708
02:31:22,200 --> 02:31:24,320
Speaker 1: that there could be I mean, as much as it

2709
02:31:24,480 --> 02:31:28,360
Speaker 1: is like becomes a very conservation dependent, very expensive, but

2710
02:31:28,560 --> 02:31:32,280
Speaker 1: you could see some level of progress, you know, and

2711
02:31:32,400 --> 02:31:34,320
Speaker 1: like at least hang on and wait for like a

2712
02:31:34,400 --> 02:31:37,120
Speaker 1: better day, you know, like just to have something to save.

2713
02:31:38,120 --> 02:31:38,280
Speaker 5: Right.

2714
02:31:39,400 --> 02:31:41,000
Speaker 1: I don't know I've mentioned a couple times ready, but

2715
02:31:41,680 --> 02:31:43,920
Speaker 1: my brother was the fisheries guy in Alaska. He had

2716
02:31:43,959 --> 02:31:48,840
Speaker 1: this really interesting perspective about Alaska versus Alaska versus the

2717
02:31:48,920 --> 02:31:53,640
Speaker 1: Lower forty eight. You said that conservation the Lower forty

2718
02:31:53,680 --> 02:31:58,240
Speaker 1: eight is it's all recovery. I mean, we're like we're

2719
02:31:58,280 --> 02:31:59,520
Speaker 1: in recovery mode.

2720
02:32:00,280 --> 02:32:00,600
Speaker 2: Up there.

2721
02:32:00,680 --> 02:32:05,480
Speaker 1: They're still in almost like a classification mode. They're still

2722
02:32:05,520 --> 02:32:09,760
Speaker 1: trying to go like what's here, right, Like what is here?

2723
02:32:10,720 --> 02:32:13,280
Speaker 1: Trying to count things, describe things, get a sense of

2724
02:32:13,360 --> 02:32:15,280
Speaker 1: what's there. And down here it's like we just look

2725
02:32:15,320 --> 02:32:18,840
Speaker 1: at like what's gone, you know what I mean, how

2726
02:32:18,920 --> 02:32:20,560
Speaker 1: we try to fix our mistakes.

2727
02:32:21,840 --> 02:32:25,640
Speaker 4: So hard because it's salmon our international issue, right, even

2728
02:32:25,720 --> 02:32:28,080
Speaker 4: the harvest of salmon, because that's why we have the

2729
02:32:28,560 --> 02:32:32,400
Speaker 4: Pacific Salmon Commission Pacific Salmon Treaty and looking. You know,

2730
02:32:32,520 --> 02:32:36,320
Speaker 4: when things really tanked back in the eighties and the

2731
02:32:36,920 --> 02:32:40,160
Speaker 4: numbers were in dire straits and in the Columbia Basin,

2732
02:32:40,360 --> 02:32:43,840
Speaker 4: and that's when you know, those court cases were happening,

2733
02:32:44,000 --> 02:32:47,200
Speaker 4: and our tribal fisheries programs were really being established and

2734
02:32:47,600 --> 02:32:51,119
Speaker 4: the tribes started their supplementation efforts. That's when you could

2735
02:32:51,200 --> 02:32:54,720
Speaker 4: see the rebound in the in the the curve on

2736
02:32:54,800 --> 02:32:57,840
Speaker 4: the graph of when our tribes started doing that that

2737
02:32:57,920 --> 02:32:59,199
Speaker 4: way to get us here.

2738
02:32:59,480 --> 02:33:01,480
Speaker 1: We haven't even gotten into all that stuff with like

2739
02:33:01,600 --> 02:33:04,720
Speaker 1: high seas drift nets and dudes out in almost an

2740
02:33:04,760 --> 02:33:07,240
Speaker 1: international waters peeling off American salmon.

2741
02:33:07,360 --> 02:33:08,280
Speaker 2: Man like, we need to get.

2742
02:33:08,200 --> 02:33:11,400
Speaker 4: Into that stuff in the bycatch of salmon and other

2743
02:33:11,480 --> 02:33:12,400
Speaker 4: fisheries is.

2744
02:33:12,959 --> 02:33:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then they go digging into kans of salmon

2745
02:33:15,120 --> 02:33:17,760
Speaker 1: and it's full of canned steelhead that they're catching out

2746
02:33:17,840 --> 02:33:18,600
Speaker 1: on the high seas.

2747
02:33:18,680 --> 02:33:20,080
Speaker 2: You know, it's just like unbelievable.

2748
02:33:20,120 --> 02:33:22,440
Speaker 3: Man, big the year the odd years with the high

2749
02:33:22,520 --> 02:33:26,680
Speaker 3: pink numbers that's being seen, we're seeing decreased signal in

2750
02:33:26,840 --> 02:33:30,760
Speaker 3: chinook and other lower forty eight fish. And you know

2751
02:33:30,879 --> 02:33:34,920
Speaker 3: those are Alaska as well as as Japan and some

2752
02:33:35,080 --> 02:33:37,840
Speaker 3: of those Asian countries that are putting out a lot

2753
02:33:37,879 --> 02:33:38,520
Speaker 3: of pinks.

2754
02:33:38,760 --> 02:33:42,039
Speaker 2: So it's into those nets, man, And.

2755
02:33:42,520 --> 02:33:46,400
Speaker 4: That's all it's done, just for corporate interest, right. That's

2756
02:33:46,480 --> 02:33:50,520
Speaker 4: not anything natural, it's not a natural population, it's not

2757
02:33:50,640 --> 02:33:54,480
Speaker 4: a public service. It's these groups putting out all this

2758
02:33:55,160 --> 02:33:59,920
Speaker 4: pink catchery production just for this commercial fishery, low value

2759
02:34:00,040 --> 02:34:03,360
Speaker 4: commercial fishery in comparison to what they could be having

2760
02:34:03,440 --> 02:34:03,879
Speaker 4: in sake.

2761
02:34:04,000 --> 02:34:06,160
Speaker 1: I sent Yanni the other day. Do you have that

2762
02:34:06,280 --> 02:34:09,680
Speaker 1: text message? Pull up that text message I sent Yannie.

2763
02:34:09,800 --> 02:34:13,400
Speaker 1: Some fish price stuff will close out, almost close out

2764
02:34:13,440 --> 02:34:13,600
Speaker 1: with this.

2765
02:34:14,040 --> 02:34:15,960
Speaker 5: And we can't forget about where to go if you

2766
02:34:16,000 --> 02:34:16,680
Speaker 5: want to donate.

2767
02:34:16,840 --> 02:34:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we're talking about just relative value here when

2768
02:34:20,640 --> 02:34:24,160
Speaker 1: you're talking about like the pink, like the pink industry.

2769
02:34:24,840 --> 02:34:28,320
Speaker 2: Yeah that mm hmm nickel. This is paid at the dock.

2770
02:34:28,879 --> 02:34:33,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, Steve and I exchanged at times a lot of texts,

2771
02:34:33,680 --> 02:34:34,320
Speaker 7: so it's.

2772
02:34:34,240 --> 02:34:36,840
Speaker 2: Taking just a second. I think it was six cents

2773
02:34:37,240 --> 02:34:40,959
Speaker 2: six and then compared to like a sake or king.

2774
02:34:41,200 --> 02:34:42,320
Speaker 2: Hopefully Yannie can find it.

2775
02:34:43,120 --> 02:34:46,320
Speaker 4: There's there's been years that when I grew up fishing,

2776
02:34:46,600 --> 02:34:48,520
Speaker 4: we were getting two and a half cents a pound

2777
02:34:49,160 --> 02:34:54,560
Speaker 4: for Tooley's on the on the Toby. It's the it's

2778
02:34:54,640 --> 02:34:57,280
Speaker 4: a different stock of fish like that runs in the

2779
02:34:57,640 --> 02:35:01,480
Speaker 4: lower river. You have upriver brights that farther upstream or

2780
02:35:01,840 --> 02:35:06,280
Speaker 4: like th hu Eliott. Yeah, yeah, but two and a

2781
02:35:06,320 --> 02:35:07,280
Speaker 4: half cents a pound.

2782
02:35:09,120 --> 02:35:12,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, these were overall average prices paid the fisherman in

2783
02:35:12,920 --> 02:35:16,119
Speaker 7: twenty twenty five. This is the Alaska Fishing Game Department.

2784
02:35:16,600 --> 02:35:18,920
Speaker 7: Chinook took six forty a pound.

2785
02:35:20,480 --> 02:35:22,959
Speaker 2: Next down this was paid the fisherman at the docks six.

2786
02:35:24,160 --> 02:35:27,880
Speaker 7: Next down the line was Coho at one, Sakka at

2787
02:35:27,920 --> 02:35:32,600
Speaker 7: one seventeen. Surprisingly to me, chumps were eighty cents, and

2788
02:35:32,680 --> 02:35:33,800
Speaker 7: then the pinks came in.

2789
02:35:33,840 --> 02:35:38,160
Speaker 2: At thirty well thirty cents, okay, But like just a

2790
02:35:38,280 --> 02:35:41,199
Speaker 2: relative picture the way that the values on these fish

2791
02:35:41,240 --> 02:35:43,080
Speaker 2: are perceived, you know, and then like the amount of

2792
02:35:43,240 --> 02:35:45,800
Speaker 2: like yeah, the other thing about the man, this is

2793
02:35:45,800 --> 02:35:47,360
Speaker 2: such a rich subject. Do you go on and on?

2794
02:35:47,520 --> 02:35:51,480
Speaker 1: But like the hat the pink hatchery stuff is you

2795
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:54,040
Speaker 1: think like you think when you're running cattle, when you're

2796
02:35:54,120 --> 02:35:56,280
Speaker 1: running cattle and you want to run graze cattle on

2797
02:35:56,360 --> 02:35:59,080
Speaker 1: public land, you pay a grazing fee. You have a

2798
02:35:59,160 --> 02:36:03,039
Speaker 1: contract and pay raising fee. A cannery runs a pink hatch,

2799
02:36:04,160 --> 02:36:07,880
Speaker 1: they're grazing for free. That stuff goes out in the

2800
02:36:07,959 --> 02:36:14,600
Speaker 1: open ocean and grazes for free, and then it comes

2801
02:36:14,680 --> 02:36:16,000
Speaker 1: back and you sell it for thirty cent you know,

2802
02:36:16,040 --> 02:36:18,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you sell it for thirty cents a pound, dude.

2803
02:36:18,360 --> 02:36:19,680
Speaker 1: It's competing with wildfish.

2804
02:36:20,280 --> 02:36:22,440
Speaker 5: And then compared to the market, I was looking at

2805
02:36:22,600 --> 02:36:26,240
Speaker 5: just Pike Place fish prices as of yesterday, and of

2806
02:36:26,320 --> 02:36:29,800
Speaker 5: course it's probably be more expensive, but thirty to forty

2807
02:36:29,879 --> 02:36:33,439
Speaker 5: pounds for wild dollars chinook.

2808
02:36:33,320 --> 02:36:36,279
Speaker 2: Thirty to forty bucks for wild pound pound of wild chinook.

2809
02:36:36,440 --> 02:36:40,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then that's that was an average. Then Pike

2810
02:36:40,959 --> 02:36:45,200
Speaker 5: Place was fifty five for full as Sacy is about

2811
02:36:45,240 --> 02:36:49,959
Speaker 5: fifty dollars a pound for full ats and coho is twenty.

2812
02:36:49,680 --> 02:36:52,119
Speaker 2: Eight or pink's on her uh.

2813
02:36:52,840 --> 02:36:57,000
Speaker 5: No, ste white sturgeon was like average ten to thirty,

2814
02:36:57,240 --> 02:36:59,000
Speaker 5: depending upon you know, you.

2815
02:36:59,040 --> 02:36:59,920
Speaker 2: Know who else we didn't get to.

2816
02:37:00,560 --> 02:37:04,600
Speaker 1: We didn't get the bitching about killer whales, who I

2817
02:37:04,680 --> 02:37:06,720
Speaker 1: guess could go into a school of pinks. If there's

2818
02:37:06,720 --> 02:37:08,520
Speaker 1: a king in there. They going to that school. It

2819
02:37:08,560 --> 02:37:11,039
Speaker 1: could be thousands of pinks and they're gonna grab the king.

2820
02:37:12,879 --> 02:37:17,440
Speaker 2: Dude, they know they know the price, Like, yeah, isn't

2821
02:37:17,480 --> 02:37:17,920
Speaker 2: that wild.

2822
02:37:18,560 --> 02:37:21,520
Speaker 1: They'll they could, they'll sort through, They'll sort through and

2823
02:37:21,600 --> 02:37:24,360
Speaker 1: find kings because like that's the good one, that's the

2824
02:37:24,480 --> 02:37:25,640
Speaker 1: bad one right there.

2825
02:37:26,000 --> 02:37:28,520
Speaker 4: Well, that's like with sea lions, right Doug was talking

2826
02:37:28,560 --> 02:37:32,439
Speaker 4: about the stellars that eat a sturgeon. They were primarily

2827
02:37:32,520 --> 02:37:35,640
Speaker 4: going after the big females and eating out the bellies.

2828
02:37:35,840 --> 02:37:39,120
Speaker 4: Roll yeah, yeah, animals.

2829
02:37:39,440 --> 02:37:42,879
Speaker 7: Well, it gives me hope, Like you're your aha moment

2830
02:37:43,000 --> 02:37:45,280
Speaker 7: story of seeing those giant fish in that pool. I

2831
02:37:45,360 --> 02:37:47,640
Speaker 7: feel like the stuff you guys are doing, if at

2832
02:37:47,680 --> 02:37:51,440
Speaker 7: the minimum, you're giving the opportunity for future generations to

2833
02:37:51,560 --> 02:37:55,240
Speaker 7: have that moment. Hopefully we can keep the whole thing going.

2834
02:37:55,480 --> 02:37:57,920
Speaker 7: And then to think that we could have like what

2835
02:37:58,080 --> 02:38:02,040
Speaker 7: Alaska has like literally right here or within a half

2836
02:38:02,040 --> 02:38:04,960
Speaker 7: a day's drive where we're sitting right now, and that

2837
02:38:05,120 --> 02:38:08,640
Speaker 7: we don't, and that we're not putting more effort into doing.

2838
02:38:08,480 --> 02:38:10,760
Speaker 2: It because I've walked across the river around them.

2839
02:38:11,080 --> 02:38:12,000
Speaker 6: It's kind of crazy.

2840
02:38:12,240 --> 02:38:15,879
Speaker 4: It's the resistance to change and moving beyond the status

2841
02:38:15,959 --> 02:38:18,920
Speaker 4: quo of that's the way we've always done things. Like

2842
02:38:19,640 --> 02:38:22,280
Speaker 4: you have this old car that's all beat up and

2843
02:38:22,480 --> 02:38:26,240
Speaker 4: I'm barely keeping it running, but I refuse to to

2844
02:38:26,360 --> 02:38:26,840
Speaker 4: trade it in.

2845
02:38:27,720 --> 02:38:31,080
Speaker 7: Well, it's the baseline syndrome too, right. None of us

2846
02:38:31,160 --> 02:38:34,240
Speaker 7: here in this room have ever would ever know see,

2847
02:38:34,400 --> 02:38:36,400
Speaker 7: have seen or would know what it was like to

2848
02:38:36,480 --> 02:38:38,320
Speaker 7: have those kind of fisheries right here.

2849
02:38:39,160 --> 02:38:41,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like my little kids, like if if we don't

2850
02:38:41,400 --> 02:38:44,000
Speaker 1: turn things around on Sam, and my little kids would

2851
02:38:44,000 --> 02:38:44,200
Speaker 1: be like.

2852
02:38:44,360 --> 02:38:46,840
Speaker 2: Man, twenty twenty five is bitch, and dude, we got

2853
02:38:46,920 --> 02:38:50,440
Speaker 2: three kings. Yeah, you never see that now.

2854
02:38:51,760 --> 02:38:52,800
Speaker 4: Well, there's a lot of misca.

2855
02:38:53,000 --> 02:38:54,480
Speaker 2: That was the good old days, dude.

2856
02:38:55,160 --> 02:38:57,920
Speaker 4: There's a lot of misconceptions too. People don't understand that,

2857
02:38:58,120 --> 02:39:01,200
Speaker 4: Like what are they complaining about. Like they see those

2858
02:39:01,320 --> 02:39:03,760
Speaker 4: reels and those videos of all those fish coming back

2859
02:39:03,800 --> 02:39:07,879
Speaker 4: to those pink catcheries, you know, and that's what they're showing.

2860
02:39:08,280 --> 02:39:12,120
Speaker 4: That's not what's going on in the in reality and

2861
02:39:12,320 --> 02:39:15,400
Speaker 4: having fish coming back to the rivers and the spawning

2862
02:39:15,480 --> 02:39:19,879
Speaker 4: grounds and things like that, that's more natural. But they

2863
02:39:20,000 --> 02:39:23,200
Speaker 4: see these these outrageous things and think that's not a

2864
02:39:23,240 --> 02:39:27,040
Speaker 4: big deal. And there's also a lot of misconception. And

2865
02:39:27,320 --> 02:39:30,360
Speaker 4: call it the numbers game, right, they're looking at the

2866
02:39:30,480 --> 02:39:34,800
Speaker 4: total number of salmon that passed Bonnaville down. That's kind

2867
02:39:34,840 --> 02:39:38,280
Speaker 4: of what the outsiders view is success of the health

2868
02:39:38,360 --> 02:39:41,720
Speaker 4: of the river. Like you know, we're around two million now,

2869
02:39:42,200 --> 02:39:44,720
Speaker 4: but a lot of that is still lower river hatcheries.

2870
02:39:44,800 --> 02:39:49,640
Speaker 4: You have a little white salmon and spring chinook catcheries,

2871
02:39:49,879 --> 02:39:54,760
Speaker 4: but where they're not whereas wild wild chinook, wild spring

2872
02:39:54,920 --> 02:39:58,600
Speaker 4: chinook in the Upper and mid Columbia, you're only getting

2873
02:39:58,680 --> 02:39:59,359
Speaker 4: like a thousand.

2874
02:40:00,120 --> 02:40:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I gotcha of that. So you make them. You

2875
02:40:03,800 --> 02:40:05,440
Speaker 2: can show what you want to show with the numbers.

2876
02:40:06,120 --> 02:40:12,520
Speaker 4: And then also understanding that harvest is limited by those

2877
02:40:12,600 --> 02:40:17,640
Speaker 4: weaker stocks because you have ESA restrictions on spring chinook

2878
02:40:17,920 --> 02:40:21,240
Speaker 4: all throughout the basin, so you have very little access

2879
02:40:21,360 --> 02:40:25,480
Speaker 4: to harvest spring chinook. And you know the numbers are slow, well,

2880
02:40:26,000 --> 02:40:28,160
Speaker 4: sea lions are eating most of them before they get

2881
02:40:28,240 --> 02:40:32,080
Speaker 4: to us. And then we fight over the what seventeen

2882
02:40:32,160 --> 02:40:36,359
Speaker 4: percent harvests that shared between the states and the tribes.

2883
02:40:37,120 --> 02:40:41,240
Speaker 4: And then also in the summer, because of the ESA

2884
02:40:41,360 --> 02:40:47,400
Speaker 4: listed Sokai concerns and we can't access we can't fish

2885
02:40:47,560 --> 02:40:52,360
Speaker 4: those on the successful Okanagan fish or you know Upper

2886
02:40:52,400 --> 02:40:56,160
Speaker 4: Columbia fish because of ESA restrictions, and the same thing

2887
02:40:56,280 --> 02:41:01,360
Speaker 4: happens in our fall fisheries. We have mesh restriction sizes

2888
02:41:01,480 --> 02:41:09,199
Speaker 4: because of b run steelhead limitations. So it's like things

2889
02:41:09,240 --> 02:41:11,560
Speaker 4: are great, but like, no, it's not. You have to

2890
02:41:11,600 --> 02:41:14,800
Speaker 4: look at the real picture of what's going on throughout

2891
02:41:14,840 --> 02:41:15,320
Speaker 4: the basin.

2892
02:41:16,120 --> 02:41:19,080
Speaker 2: Well, well that's that, man, We go on all day.

2893
02:41:19,080 --> 02:41:20,600
Speaker 2: But this has been great talking to you guys about

2894
02:41:20,640 --> 02:41:23,760
Speaker 2: I've learned a ton and I'm just one person.

2895
02:41:23,879 --> 02:41:26,720
Speaker 4: We have a ton of great experts on any subject

2896
02:41:26,800 --> 02:41:29,000
Speaker 4: you want to touch on, and it would be really

2897
02:41:29,040 --> 02:41:32,560
Speaker 4: awesome to you know, like focus more on the CBRI,

2898
02:41:32,920 --> 02:41:36,480
Speaker 4: the Columbia Basin Restoration Initiative, and you know, that's what

2899
02:41:36,600 --> 02:41:40,720
Speaker 4: we're continuing to work for towards and advocate for to

2900
02:41:41,000 --> 02:41:45,280
Speaker 4: get these actions done to continue the success and also

2901
02:41:45,760 --> 02:41:49,440
Speaker 4: you know, looking for partnerships of you know, how we

2902
02:41:49,520 --> 02:41:52,560
Speaker 4: could work together because you know, the only time we

2903
02:41:52,879 --> 02:41:55,959
Speaker 4: make actionable change is when we set aside our differences

2904
02:41:56,080 --> 02:41:59,959
Speaker 4: to focus on our commonalities and that's when we connect

2905
02:42:00,120 --> 02:42:03,080
Speaker 4: and also connecting as people like how I said about

2906
02:42:03,360 --> 02:42:06,320
Speaker 4: you know, salmon. It's the heart of our culture. It's cultural,

2907
02:42:06,920 --> 02:42:10,840
Speaker 4: it's spiritual, you know, like and even things don't have

2908
02:42:10,959 --> 02:42:13,360
Speaker 4: to be religious to be spiritual. It could be that

2909
02:42:13,600 --> 02:42:16,040
Speaker 4: way for you or anybody else. Like I talked to

2910
02:42:16,120 --> 02:42:18,760
Speaker 4: a lot of our staff. I shared my aha moment

2911
02:42:18,920 --> 02:42:21,520
Speaker 4: of that seeing that fish eight hundred miles away, and

2912
02:42:21,920 --> 02:42:25,320
Speaker 4: they've talked about sitting alongside the stream bank and seeing

2913
02:42:25,400 --> 02:42:29,119
Speaker 4: that fish jumping to get over this barrier or things

2914
02:42:29,240 --> 02:42:32,360
Speaker 4: like that. Like we can all feel that connection if

2915
02:42:32,400 --> 02:42:36,080
Speaker 4: we get out there and it's there's you can't put

2916
02:42:36,120 --> 02:42:36,840
Speaker 4: a value on that.

2917
02:42:37,720 --> 02:42:41,360
Speaker 5: So take a first step. Audience members, if you want

2918
02:42:41,440 --> 02:42:45,520
Speaker 5: to donate, can you guys plug your website. I know

2919
02:42:45,600 --> 02:42:47,320
Speaker 5: there's a donate tab therea.

2920
02:42:47,360 --> 02:42:50,080
Speaker 4: Yeah on our on our web page, the Columbia River

2921
02:42:50,240 --> 02:42:51,600
Speaker 4: Inner Tribal Fish Commission.

2922
02:42:51,920 --> 02:42:52,400
Speaker 3: It's at.

2923
02:42:53,959 --> 02:42:59,800
Speaker 4: Www dot CRYTF dot org. So ce R I t

2924
02:43:00,000 --> 02:43:01,840
Speaker 4: e FC dot org.

2925
02:43:03,879 --> 02:43:06,199
Speaker 2: All you non Indian fellers out here, these are the fish,

2926
02:43:07,920 --> 02:43:13,200
Speaker 2: same old fish. Thanks for coming on, guys, Thank thanks,

2927
02:43:13,320 --> 02:43:13,640
Speaker 2: thank you,