WEBVTT - Valarie Kaur 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.400 The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now. 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.880 It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:12.480 it's still only me, Craig Ferguson on my own, standing 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.800 on a stage telling comedy words. Come and see me, 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:18.560 buy tickets, bring your loved ones, or don't come and 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:21.400 see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones. 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:23.919 I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:26.160 you should at least know what's happening, and it is. 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.160 The tour kicks off late September and goes through the 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.000 end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.960 the Craig Ferguson Show dot com slash tour. They are 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.080 available at the Craig Ferguson show dot com slash tour 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:44.720 or at your local outlet in your region. My name 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.800 is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:53.360 I talk to interest in people about what brings them happiness. 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:56.400 Now listen. 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.520 I know sometimes on this podcast I have stand up 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:05.400 comedian telling dirty stories about what they do, and that's fun, 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:06.520 but that's not today. 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:07.600 Today. 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:12.080 My guest is activist and filmmaker Valerie Core. This is 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.160 a deep one, I think a really good one. Please welcome, 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:21.479 Valerie Core. I'm very interested to see that you're using 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.720 little wiry headphonts because I think of you as a 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.679 very ex savvy person. I thought you would be very bluetoothy. 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:32.399 No, I'm not, mostly because I lose things or my 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.399 children pick up the little tiny things. 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:36.280 Oh they do. That's right. 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.840 When my kids were very young, there were no air 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:43.440 pods because I imagine it's like a really choky thing, right, 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:45.280 you'd have to be really careful with air pods. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:47.320 I mean they're five and nine. 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:49.720 So my little things disappear all the time and are 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:53.840 part of like my daughter's doll scenes. So it must 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:55.680 have maybe like it would have been a soccer ball 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:56.720 or something for her dolls. 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.640 Now, listen, I wanted to I want to start with 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:06.560 the idea because I I became aware of you through 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.920 your ted talk, Right, that's how I become and and 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:14.200 your message is relentlessly and very. 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.440 Aggressive is the wrong word. But but but. 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:23.120 But stridently positive, right, You're it's a it's a positive. 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.639 I think it's a positive thing, a force for. 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:28.919 Good, if you like, I'll take that. I actually don't 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:30.799 use the word positive, but we can. We can come 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:31.160 back to that. 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.760 All right, good, well, let's talk about that, because the 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:35.880 reason why I bring it up is because I thought, well, 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.239 when someone like when when I when I come across 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.520 someone like you in the in the zeitgeist, there's not 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:45.680 many like that seems unfair like this, when when I 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.360 came across you and the Zeitgeist or you on the Internet. 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:55.440 Let's let's be honest. I thought, well, the Internet seeks 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.640 a balance all the time. So if if you're saying 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:01.720 something like which I think is positive or I think 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.120 it is a good message, there will be plenty of 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.720 people trying to redress that with negativity. And if you 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.679 have a revolutionarily love project, then you're going to get 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.280 I think you make yourself a target for some Internet hate. 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.239 For that, well, just because that's the way it seems 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.160 to go, people don't they need to have. 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:23.280 Some balance for it. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:25.639 So what I wanted to do first is talk to 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.400 you a little bit about you so that people can't say, well, 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:34.400 you know, she was a Nazi, and you know, I 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.800 know you were in a Nazi But I mean it's 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:40.520 like people can't, you know, let's learn about let's consider 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:42.800 the source before we consider the message. 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:43.440 Do you know what I mean? 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:47.440 That's really was because I know next to nothing, even 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.200 although I grew up around quite a lot of I 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.040 used to say the word seek, but you say the 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:52.880 word sick. 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:53.920 Is it pronounced sick? 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:55.000 It is pronounced sick. 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.120 But really we're just so happy you know who we 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.640 are in the first place, so we usually don't correct. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.680 I was raised in Glasgow. There is a sick community 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.640 in Glasgow. It's not you know, I had been around 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.280 people from your community before, or people from your from 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.240 your background. There is that exists in Glasgow, and and 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.480 so I was familiar with it, but not really in 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.560 the sense of how it differs from It's it's. 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.080 Hindu, right, Is it a Hindu thing? 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:21.520 No, it is. 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.480 Oh, it's just separate, completely, separate completely. 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.839 It's its own, it's it's it's its own religious tradition, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:31.120 its own wisdom tradition. It's one of the youngest wisdom 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.280 traditions in the world. There are twenty six million six worldwide, 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.920 half a million in the US. And it emerged from 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:42.279 a time where the dominant religions were Hinduism and Islam. 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.440 But is it is it is its own wisdom tradition. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.520 And it is Is it a tradition that you still practice? 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:51.800 Are you still very much involved in it or is it? 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.120 Are you more secular in your in your life now? 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:00.760 I grew up with the stories and most song prayers 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:03.240 that my grandfather used to tell me as he tucked 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:05.680 me into bed at night. You know, I grew up 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.800 on the farmlands of California. My family has lived and 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.400 farmed in California in the United States for one hundred. 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.000 And ten years. So deep history here. 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:17.920 So I could have been someone who kind of floated 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.640 away from the tradition, but it was poured into me 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:25.239 by my grandfather and his songs, his stories, His love 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:30.119 infused me with a like I inherited a treasure chest 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.839 that I could reach into to find courage to live 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:34.360 my life. 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.360 And that's what I do still. 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:41.200 What is the Sikh religion? That was sick religion? I 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.920 big a part of the Sikh religion? Is it? Is it? 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:49.200 Is it? Is it monotheism? Is it? Is it? No? 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:49.560 Yeah? 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:50.839 Western category? 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:53.160 Yeah, I really don't know. 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:53.680 Yeah. 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.600 Yeah, it's a it's a It's a tradition rooted in love, 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.119 love above all deeply loved and maybe the best way 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:02.440 to share it with you was through the origin story. 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.760 Okay, great, so that would be great. 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:07.680 Like I'll play my grandfather, you play me. 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:09.760 Okay, that's good. All right. 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:12.920 I have to say visually, you've let yourself go. But okay, 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.000 if I viewed that there, it is all right. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:17.200 Let's let's go. 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.640 Half a millennium ago, halfway around the world, in South 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.760 Asia and the land of Punjab, there lived a man 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:25.640 named Nanik. 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:27.800 And Nanik looked around him. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.680 It was a time of conquest and cast and cruelty, 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.560 and he took all that pain into his heart. He 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.080 meditated by the river every morning for fourteen years, and 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.400 then one morning he did not return home. People thought 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.440 he was a dead man, a drowned man. The sun 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:45.640 rose and then fell, The sun rose and fell, and 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.520 then the third day the sun rose, and Nonik emerged 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:49.120 from the river. 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:51.880 But he was stricken. He had a stricken look in 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:52.279 his eye. 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:54.600 He did not speak, he did not stir, until finally 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:59.720 he gave one utterance, Na Goo Hindu, na Goo Musliman 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:06.360 there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim, which means 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:10.400 there is no me against you at all. This was 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.560 beyond love thy neighbor as yourself. This was beyond like 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:18.400 taken the stranger. This was see no stranger. That we 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.800 are part of one another, we belong to one another, 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:25.000 that we constitute each other, and that belonging to each 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.280 other is the wellspring of love. That you can look 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.000 upon the face of anyone and say you are a 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:30.560 part of me. 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:31.880 I do not yet know. 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.640 And so the origin of the faith is it, Oh God, 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:41.560 oneness ever unfolding. And Nonik began not to give commandments 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:45.640 or stories, but he began to sing, sing songs of love, 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.320 because to taste the truth of oneness, you have to 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.120 get out of language, out of dichotomy, out of subject 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.800 and object. You have to you know, those moments when 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:55.800 the music swells, or you look in the face of 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.560 your child, or you're on the mountaintop and you're just 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:03.120 there's just no language at all. Good. Eonik was saying, like, 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.800 those are not incidental moments, those are not throwaway moments. 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:10.680 Those moments of wonder are actually sacred insights into the 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.800 true nature of things, the oneness that always is. And 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:16.840 so we can't stay there. We have to live, Like Craig, 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.680 you're over there and I'm over here right. We have 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.760 to live in a world of separation, but separation is 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.480 an illusion. So how do we we have an experience 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.000 of oneness and then we remember the truth of it. 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:29.720 And the way we do that is we move through 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.200 the world seeing all others as sisters, as brothers, as 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.640 kin And if I see you as my brother, Couric, 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.000 that means I gotta show up for you when you 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.040 need me, serve you when you need me, fight for 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:40.600 you when you. 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:41.320 Are in harm's way. 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:47.920 And so our people became sounth sabahi, sage warriors, the 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.880 warrior fights, the sage loves. I learned it as a 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:53.760 path of revolutionary love. 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:59.040 It's a beautiful story and very poetic. I think, you know, 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.760 I'm about a little contrarian. So I wonder like when 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.560 it's interesting because I think, well, you fight again, you know, 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.960 you fight when, fight for me, when you fight for 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.200 your brothers or sisters when you need to. But who 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.760 you fighting against if we're all, if we're all brothers 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:15.640 and sisters. 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:15.760 You know what I mean. 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.520 It's the other thing. I think it's fascinating though, because 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:22.920 I have this is me talking. 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:24.560 I don't know about anybody else. 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:29.240 But I tend to like, before I hear someone's story, 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.280 I judge them, do you know what I mean? Like 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.240 it's like if I see someone, look at that guy, 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.640 I look at that jerik, you know, on a bus 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.280 or on an airplane, and then you and then you 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:43.000 hear someone's story and you and and every everything changes 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.640 if you get to know who someone is, you know 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:48.440 it kind of do you have someone else there with? 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.600 My mother just walked in with a big players. 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.320 That's lovely, that's very nice. 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.160 Do you want to say hi, Craig Ferguson. 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:04.199 Hello, Oh hello, very nice to meet you. What did 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:05.280 you make for breakfast? 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.120 I she made me eggs? 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.400 Thank you lovely? 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:13.599 I love you. I haven't seen her in weeks. I 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:15.800 got in last night and she just comes in. 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:23.959 That is very nice. That's that's very nice, very nice. 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:25.560 That is very nice. 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.920 So so you just got in last night where you're 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.959 away with your way working because you go around a lot, right. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.840 Your book just came out. Stage Warrior just came out. 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.439 So yeah, we. 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.520 Did our big we it's a movement building tour because 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.199 we did a big New York kickoff of it. We're 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.000 going to do La We're going to forty five cities 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.880 around the country, and we're spreading the message of revolutionary love. 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.120 We're telling stories, we're bringing songs, we're bringing tools for 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:50.160 how to What is the. 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.400 Message of revolutionary love? Then? What is that? 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.800 Revolutionary love is the call of our times. Revolutionary love 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.400 is the choice to leave no one outside of our 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:00.440 circle of care? 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:02.080 How do you do that? 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:06.680 Especially when people when people are you know, if someone 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.480 rejects your message, Yeah, you know, I mean, I mean 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.520 because sometimes it's difficult to help. I know this because look, 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:19.760 I spend my life around people who are either focused 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:24.280 on not drinking or focused on drinking alcohol. And so 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.720 sometimes when you want to help someone, they don't want 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:29.520 to help. They don't want to be part of your movement, 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.200 they don't want to be part of your thing, and 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.600 they'd rather literally in some cases, rather die. 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:36.360 How do you reach out to someone like that? 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.200 Yeah? The first thing to know, because I like what 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.199 you said about, Well, you're fighting if everyone's your brother 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:43.800 or sister, or who are you fighting against? 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:44.520 Here's the thing. 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.800 We have opponents in this world. An opponent is anyone 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.200 who's ideas, believes, or actions oppose your own. I don't 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.400 call them enemies, and that's the radical intervention. An enemy 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.920 is a fixed and permanent position, but an opponent is 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.360 a fluid category. They might be they might stay your 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.080 opponent this whole lifetime, right, they might never see you 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:13.480 or want to support you, or just saying opponent opens 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.520 up the possibility that transformation could happen. And how do 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:20.120 you practice loving one's opponent? That practice I call ten 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:24.679 the wound because I've I'm an activist for twenty years. 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.520 I've sat with former correctional officers, police officers, murderers, people 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.120 who have killed people in my community, my own former abusers, 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.719 And every time I want to hate them, I have 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.400 to do what my ancestors taught me what to do, 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.800 to wonder, to wonder about them, Why why do they 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:41.120 say that? 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:42.040 Why do they do that? 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:44.000 And beneath the slogans and the sound bites like when 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.880 you want to hate them, if you hear their story, 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.319 you see their wound, and I've come to understand they're Oh, 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.640 there are no such thing as monsters in this world. 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.680 There are only human beings who are wounded, who act 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.520 out of their fear or insecurity or rage. That does 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.920 not make them any less dangerous. Sure, but when we 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.880 see their wound, they lose their power over us. We 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.160 become free and we become smarter about how to respond. 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.600 All right, it's not just enough to like remove bad 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.200 actors from power, Like what are the cultures, what are 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.320 the institutions, what are the what are the norms that 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:16.320 drive that behavior? 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.080 And then I get smarter about how how to respond. 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:23.920 Yeah, it's an interesting thing. 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.600 I mean, I remember talking to a long time ago, 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.640 talking to a man who changed my life. I'm sure 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:34.440 you're very familiar with it. Is Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Yes, 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:40.080 who was talking about the idea of you know, resentment 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.800 being you know, as like drinking a poison and then 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:45.600 expecting someone else to die. 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.160 Yes, you know, it's. 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:53.280 The the idea of because father Tutu was one of 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:56.080 the architects of the Truth and Reconciliation Committee. Is is 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.600 it similar to that idea that trying to resolve conflict 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:04.599 through resolution rather than continuation of conflicts? 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:05.560 Is that the idea? 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.840 Absolutely, it's you know, I'm saying it's coming from my 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.720 tradition and my ancestors, but it's really the heart of 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.280 all the great wisdom traditions. 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.240 It is, sure, I understand that. 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:20.520 Yeah, I wonder is it is it something that applies 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:24.200 because America right now, particularly as you run up to 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:29.160 the election, the it's very it's it's quite tribal. 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:31.960 There are apps right now. 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:36.240 Right, Yeah, I mean, and it's and it's it's really 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:41.280 hard to to reach across the I want to see 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.920 the aisle, but it's just like to reach across any 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:49.480 any gap without people in a post truth environment. Right, 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.520 It's kind of where I was at the at the 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:55.600 beginning that you know, what I wanted to establish with 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.960 everyone that I talked to, especially about something like this, 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.440 is there d angels for talking about it? Because people 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:06.120 will lie about you? You know, how do how do 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:09.120 you take that? I mean even if you see someone's wound. 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:14.840 I'm sure that you know, if if if someone says 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.400 something hateful about you or your family on the internet, 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:19.360 how do. 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.240 You deal with that? Do you just ignore it? I 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.400 mean how do you how'd you cope with it? 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.200 Yeah? 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.240 James Baldwin said, love has never been a popular movement, 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.160 Like it's never It's never been popular or safe or 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:39.440 easy to stand in one shared humanity or stand in love. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.800 And I certainly I mean I I my message sort 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.720 of is challenging for people across the political spectrum. You know, sure, 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.520 you know, I fight for social justice in this country, 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.760 So of course I have people on the far right 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.400 who see me as their opponent or their enemy. Really, 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:59.160 but then I have people who call themselves progressives, and 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:02.040 when I call for for love as like the most 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.280 revolutionary necessary force to transition this country, they're like, oh, 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:06.000 we're ready for war. 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:07.880 We're not ready for love. We're ready for war. 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.040 And so that's when like the hate that I get 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:15.960 is from across the spectrum, and what I invite people 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:20.760 into is understanding that everyone has a different role in 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.160 the labor of revolutionary love. At any given time, when 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.720 we are being so hurt in the face of onslaught 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:31.240 assaults injustice, it is okay, it is rightful to feel rage. 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.480 That our rage is loaded with information and energy. It 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.640 connects us to our ability to fight for ourselves, to 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:38.760 defend ourselves. So if I'm getting attacked and my family's 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.400 getting attacked, yes, like this is why people were warriors, right, 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.640 we defend ourselves with one hand. But then we don't 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.720 lose the sight of the sage because in the next moment, 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.120 maybe not out, But in the next moment, next season, 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.040 there might be an opportunity to say about what about 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.040 their children? What story are they telling themselves? 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:57.560 How do I create? 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.160 How do I respond in such a way that after 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.000 the battle is on, after the election is over, we 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.640 can still find a way to live with each other. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.360 How do you come to this? 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.720 Is there a radical moment in your life that you say, Okay, look, 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.920 because you studied you were you studied divinity, right, that 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:25.320 was your college. 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.400 Yeah, I studied religion. 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.359 I studied law and became a lawyer, a filmmaker, and 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.240 an organizer, a faith leader. But you know, out of 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.919 all the things I studied, nothing showed me more than living. 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:41.000 I think the. 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:46.240 Moment that that changed me was I became an activist 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.959 after a family friend was murdered in the wake of 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.520 September eleventh, more than twenty years ago. Now, the racial 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:58.240 violence that exploded across the United States and the aftermath 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:02.960 of those terrorist attacks targeted sick Americans because our people 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:07.880 to show their devotion to love and service. Where articles 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:10.600 of faith keep our hair long, and our men some 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.919 women wrap their long hair in a turban and so 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.360 since nine to eleven, looking at the screen and seeing 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.960 a picture of Osama bin Laden again and again said, 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:25.159 oh our nations do enemy looks like my family. You're right, 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.280 And so sick Americans were at the forefront of all 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.920 of that violence in this country, alongside our Muslim brothers 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.960 and sisters. And the first person murdered in the aftermath 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.280 was bulbursingh so deep. He was standing in front of 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.800 his gas station in Mesa, Arizona when he was killed, 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:45.280 and his death turned me a whole generation of us 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:50.920 into activists. Twenty years later, the backlash, the aftermath never ended. 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.240 Hate violence never went down to the levels they were 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.040 before nine to eleven. And so we're just living in 0:18:56.080 --> 0:19:00.240 a world where the threat of terror and violence is 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.320 this constant. And so for many years, for fifteen years 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.119 after Bilbi your uncle's murder, I could only think of 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:13.359 the killer with rage, a rightful rage, right and hate 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.160 bordering on hate, like he took so much from us. 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.440 And it was fifteen years later when I just you know, 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.080 it's what Desmond Tutu said, right, Am I drinking? 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.960 Am I drinking this poison and hurting myself? 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:26.320 Is he? 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:31.280 Fifteen years later, the younger brother of Bilbier uncle. 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:36.240 Rana and I decided to try to change the story. 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:40.399 We made a phone call to the Arizona State Prison 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.000 federal prison where Frank Rogue was being held. 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.520 And this is the gentleman who murdered Uh, yeah, well 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:47.760 be here. 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.000 Yeah, that's right. And Craig, at first, I thought this 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:52.080 was a terrible mistake. 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:54.359 I mean, it sounds like a really bad idea. 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:56.080 If I would have been around you at the time, 0:19:56.200 --> 0:20:00.159 I'd like, this is probably maybe something else would be 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:00.760 a bad idea. 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:04.240 Yeah, limits to love, like you don't call your uncle's 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.800 murderer and try to make things better like that, right. 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.080 So and in the beginning he said, well, I'm sorry, 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:10.800 I'm sorry. 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:12.720 He was kind of flailing or he's like, I'm sorry 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:15.200 for what happened to your uncle, but I'm also sorry 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.119 for the thousands who were killed on nine to eleven. 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.200 Refusing to take a response, but I'm feeling rage rise 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:21.680 in me, like fire in a cage. 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:27.760 And maybe because I was holding that rage, it gave 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:33.879 Rana the space to wonder about Frank, to listen and 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:38.320 to hear what I could not hear. Rana says, Frank, 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:40.240 this is the first time I've heard you say you 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:45.600 were sorry, and Frank says, yet, yes, I am sorry 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.040