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Speaker 1: Since our original coverage of Andre Brown's case, there have

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Speaker 1: been some terrifying developments. Our listeners might recall that Andre's

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Speaker 1: team revealed a very compelling alternate suspect in this case,

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Speaker 1: someone who looked like Andrea, lived in the neighborhood, had

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Speaker 1: a motive, and who at the time of the crime,

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Speaker 1: was not recovering from a debilitating injury, unlike Andrea, who

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Speaker 1: could barely walk, let alone chase the victims in this case, so,

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Speaker 1: Andrea's conviction was overturned. But despite this information, the Bronx

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Speaker 1: District Attorney's office appealed the decision that overturned Andrea's conviction,

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Speaker 1: and they won. So this Friday, yes, this upcoming Friday,

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Speaker 1: April twenty fifth, twenty twenty five, they aimed to take

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Speaker 1: Andre from his wife and children and the freedom that

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Speaker 1: he richly deserves to serve out the remaining seventeen years

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Speaker 1: of someone else's forty year sentence. So I am pleading

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Speaker 1: with you to help save an innocent man from further injustice.

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Speaker 1: There's a petition for clemency linked in the episode description.

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Speaker 1: Scroll to it, sign it, share it, and perhaps by

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Speaker 1: this weekend there will be one less terrible thing happening.

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Speaker 2: In this world.

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Speaker 1: On the evening of January fifteenth, nineteen ninety nine, a

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Speaker 1: masked man approached two teenage boys in front of a

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Speaker 1: bodega in the Bronx, on a corner known for drug activity.

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Speaker 1: The assailant drew a gun and shot one of the

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Speaker 1: young men several times while the other ran off. The

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Speaker 1: gunman chased the other young man down the block and

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Speaker 1: around the corner before paralyzing him with one shot to

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Speaker 1: the back. While both victims survived, only one was conscious,

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Speaker 1: but he couldn't or wouldn't provide a lead. An eyewitness

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Speaker 1: said that she recognized the shooter as a guy from

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Speaker 1: the neighbor named Drey. The police remembered Andre Brown, a

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Speaker 1: neighborhood kid who was shot in the leg one year

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Speaker 1: prior in a drug dispute. The specter of his injured

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Speaker 1: leg and alternate suspects were ignored when both the witness

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Speaker 1: and the victim agreed that Andre was the assailant.

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Speaker 2: But this is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to wrongful conviction. You can listen to this

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Speaker 3: and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early

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Speaker 3: and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good plus

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Speaker 3: on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Back to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: Recently, Jason Flamm and I were asked to record an

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Speaker 1: interview in front of a live audience at the annual

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Speaker 1: United Justice Coalition Summit.

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Speaker 2: The UJC aims to raise awareness around.

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Speaker 1: Social justice issues and the need for criminal legal system reform.

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Speaker 1: So for our live interview, we thought of a mutual friend,

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Speaker 1: someone whose case I covered on my podcast Unjustin Unsolved. Well,

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Speaker 1: he was still wrongfully incarcerated, Andre Brown. Andrea agreed to

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Speaker 1: join us at the summit along with his attorney Oscar Michelin.

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Speaker 4: Thanks everybody for being here.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna ask, first of all, how many people in

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Speaker 3: this room were wrongfully convicted and sentenced? Oh my god,

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Speaker 3: see that? And how many people here know somebody who

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Speaker 3: was wrongfully convicted? Oh my god, that's a lot of hands.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. This shit is everywhere.

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Speaker 3: It's horrible, and I'm really really thrilled to be here

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Speaker 3: with these amazing, amazing people, Maggie Feeling, Oscar and of

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Speaker 3: course Andre Brown. And I'm so glad that Andrea is here.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm so glad you're here, because I'm so

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Speaker 3: glad you're here with your amazing, beautiful family and everything.

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Speaker 4: But his case start with this, okay.

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Speaker 3: It features a witness who didn't testify, but her testimony

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Speaker 3: was allowed in any way, which meant that no one.

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Speaker 4: Was allowed to cross examine her.

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Speaker 3: Second of all, the shooter shot one guy execution style,

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Speaker 3: then chased his friend caught up to him on the street.

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Speaker 3: Now that this was an eighteen year old kid running

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Speaker 3: for his life and somehow this guy was fast enough

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Speaker 3: to catch up with him and shoot him and paralyze

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Speaker 3: him too. Andre had a bullet wound in his leg

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Speaker 3: and had a syndrome that meant that he could barely walk,

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Speaker 3: much less run. And it also features a lawyer who,

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Speaker 3: while he was representing Andrea a trial, had a side

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Speaker 3: hustle which was committing so many crimes for the Banano

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Speaker 3: crime family that he ended up being the only attorney

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Speaker 3: in American history to enter the witness Protection program.

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Speaker 4: So it's a shit show.

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Speaker 3: So get ready to hear what we're about to hear,

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Speaker 3: because this is just different and Andre is just a

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Speaker 3: different kind of guy.

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Speaker 4: I mean to no one is to love him. So

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Speaker 4: with that, Maggie, all right.

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Speaker 1: So hello everyone, thanks for coming. I'm just gonna start

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Speaker 1: from the top with Andre, why don't you tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 5: I was raised in a two parent household. It was

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Speaker 5: the Uptime area, the Northeast Bronx. The crack epidemic was

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Speaker 5: going on, a lot of gun shots being fired continuously.

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Speaker 5: The trains were littered homeless people, and it was just

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Speaker 5: a real, just tragic time in the Bronx. My life

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Speaker 5: was a fair life. My mother was a stewardess for

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Speaker 5: the airlines, and she raised us and groomed us to

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Speaker 5: be good individuals. And then my mother and my father separated.

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Speaker 5: At that time, I was in high school and now

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Speaker 5: I was taken on the onus of raising my brothers.

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Speaker 5: So I said, how can I now change the course

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Speaker 5: of their lives and allow myself to continue in an

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Speaker 5: upward manner. First, I took on a job at creating barrel,

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Speaker 5: trying to think that it would be able to fit

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Speaker 5: the bill, and it didn't. It couldn't feed my little

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Speaker 5: sister or my other two brothers. So at that time

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Speaker 5: I said, you know what, I have to do something else.

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Speaker 5: And my friend introduced me to selling drugs. And when

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Speaker 5: I started to sell drugs, literally I thought I was

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Speaker 5: a genius Sabbath, And this is how your mind gets

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Speaker 5: cultivated poorly in the streets. You start to really engage

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Speaker 5: and think that you know better than law enforcement, you

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Speaker 5: know better than society, and you also know better than

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Speaker 5: that old adage cartoon the Turtle and the rabbit, thinking that, oh,

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Speaker 5: I know what I'm doing. I'm running past this little

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Speaker 5: working man, this turtle. So in selling drugs, in thinking

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Speaker 5: I was a genius, I got shot a simple leg shot,

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Speaker 5: mind you. It hit my major artery and I almost

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Speaker 5: bled to death. And that was the turning point in

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Speaker 5: my life.

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Speaker 1: So you almost died, So you got on a better

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Speaker 1: path in life.

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Speaker 5: Yes, First of all, you have to be an enforcer

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Speaker 5: on a block in order to hold it down. I

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Speaker 5: was injured, critically injured. I was at the point where

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Speaker 5: I couldn't walk, I could no longer hold down a block.

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Speaker 5: So I said, what am I going to do now

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Speaker 5: with my life? And I started going back to college.

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Speaker 5: At that point, I enrolled in BMCC. And that's when

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Speaker 5: you know, tragedy.

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Speaker 1: Occurred, right, And I want to bring that to Oscar.

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Speaker 1: January fifteenth, nineteen ninety nine. What happened that day?

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Speaker 6: So on that day there was a shooting on a

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Speaker 6: street corner in the Bronx Allerton Avenue, White Plains Road.

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Speaker 6: That area. The corner there was Little Bodeiga, a little

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Speaker 6: corner store had been a spot where young Jamaican gang

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Speaker 6: had started selling marijuana out of for the past about

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Speaker 6: year or so, and the cops were aware of that,

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Speaker 6: and so there became a little bit of a rival

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Speaker 6: turf war for that location from the earlier crews that

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Speaker 6: had been working there selling marijuana. And so the first

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Speaker 6: incident that happened was on January eleventh, there was a

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Speaker 6: shootout on that corner, two exchanges of gunfire. Nobody got shot,

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Speaker 6: some cars were shot up, so the police responded. On

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Speaker 6: January thirteenth, two days later, one of the guys that

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Speaker 6: hustles on that corner, guy named O'Neil virgo, got arrested,

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Speaker 6: and sure enough the gun he had on him was

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Speaker 6: connected to the shooting on the eleventh, so he gets

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Speaker 6: the rest of for a gun charge. And then on

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Speaker 6: the fifteenth O'Neil Virgo and another man Sewn Nicholson or

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Speaker 6: out on that corner selling drugs. Somebody comes up right

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Speaker 6: down White Planes Road sees them on the corner, they

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Speaker 6: see the gun. He's got a mask on. The shooter

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Speaker 6: literally stands over O'Neil Virgo and shoots him several times

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Speaker 6: and then runs down the street to try to get

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Speaker 6: the other guy, Sewn Nicholson, They were in a full

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Speaker 6: city block. He makes a left turn onto the next block,

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Speaker 6: which is Olinville, and the shooter shoots him there one time,

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Speaker 6: hits him in the spine and paralyzes him. Somehow they

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Speaker 6: both survived. So his attempted murder, there was lots of

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Speaker 6: descriptions as to what the shooter was wearing. Was it

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Speaker 6: a face mask, was it a handkerchief of bandana, et cetera.

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Speaker 6: So they asked the victim at that time, Sean Nicholson.

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Speaker 6: Mister Virgo could not speak. He was the one who

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Speaker 6: shot five or six times. And that initial police report,

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Speaker 6: Sewn Nicholson, he says, I can't identify the shooter, and

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Speaker 6: so the police start scouring the area looking for witnesses.

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Speaker 3: So how did it end up with them settling on

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Speaker 3: a guy who, it should have been painfully obvious from

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Speaker 3: the very beginning not only didn't do it, but couldn't

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Speaker 3: have done it.

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Speaker 6: They started listening to rumors in the in the street,

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Speaker 6: and one of the women who later recanted said, you know,

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Speaker 6: the shooter looked a little bit like this guy I

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Speaker 6: know from the neighborhood, Dre. So the next thing they

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Speaker 6: do with that is go to the hospital and get

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Speaker 6: Sean Nicholson, who had repeatedly said I didn't see the

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Speaker 6: guy he had a mask to pick Andre allegedly out

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Speaker 6: of a photo array. So what Nicholson actually said, or

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Speaker 6: what the police got him to say, was, as he

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Speaker 6: was falling to the ground, he looked over his shoulder

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Speaker 6: and saw the shooter pulled the mask off his face,

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Speaker 6: and he could recognize Andre from the neighborhood.

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Speaker 4: Sounds totally legit exactly happens all the time.

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Speaker 6: Two days later, a witness comes forward who claims she

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Speaker 6: was in her car when the shooting occurred. And this

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Speaker 6: is about five point thirty six o'clock at night on

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Speaker 6: a winter night, so it was just starting to get

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Speaker 6: dark in January. And then she says she saw the

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Speaker 6: shooter run past her and pull up his mask just

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Speaker 6: as he passed her car window. She also said that

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Speaker 6: the shots were fired by her car, but the shots

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Speaker 6: that shot mister Nicholson, as a described, were around the corner,

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Speaker 6: so she would not have been able to see what

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Speaker 6: she said she saw, and she said that she was

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Speaker 6: so upset that night she reported to the police because

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Speaker 6: she almost had a heart attack and she was treated

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Speaker 6: for angina that night. So she didn't come forward until

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Speaker 6: two days later after there was already the rumors in

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Speaker 6: the neighborhood and they were already looking for Andre.

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Speaker 1: So, Andre, when you found out they were looking for you,

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Speaker 1: you turned yourself in with a lawyer.

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Speaker 5: Yes, they came to my girlfriend's house early in the morning.

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Speaker 5: They missed me. I had just went out to get

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Speaker 5: breakfast really quick and came back. She was trembling, and

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Speaker 5: she said, listen, the police were here. They left the

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Speaker 5: card that they searched the home. I immediately reached out

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Speaker 5: to my mom and she said, Andre, they were just here. Also,

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Speaker 5: I was just about to call you. And I went

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Speaker 5: to the Bar Association to meet Martin Fisher. Martin Fisher

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Speaker 5: was a family attorney, and I said, Marty, they're looking

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Speaker 5: for me. I don't know what they're looking for me for.

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Speaker 5: They were contacted by Martin and they said we want

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Speaker 5: to ask him a few questions. He said, no, he's

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Speaker 5: represented by me. You cannot ask him any questions. I said, okay, well,

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Speaker 5: if we need him, we'll contact you. Two days later,

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Speaker 5: on the Wednesday morning, they contacted him, which was the

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Speaker 5: twentieth of January, and I went down there with my

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Speaker 5: mom and my girlfriend at the time, walked right into

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Speaker 5: the prison. I didn't have a worry in the world

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Speaker 5: because I knew that I didn't have anything to do

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Speaker 5: with this case. So at that time I was not

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Speaker 5: a prisoner yet. I was actually seated outside of the

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Speaker 5: push door. And it's ironic because one of the detectives there,

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Speaker 5: he said, Andre, don't you remember me? And I'm like, no,

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Speaker 5: I don't. Who are you? He said, when you were shot?

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Speaker 5: I came to the hospital, so they knew that I

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Speaker 5: was shot already before even any questions were occurring. And

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Speaker 5: then my attorney went inside spoke to them, and he

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Speaker 5: came back out, and at that point they arrested me,

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Speaker 5: and I became enraged. You know, I was yelling at

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Speaker 5: my attorney. I was yelling at them. I said, listen,

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Speaker 5: I could have never committed this crime. I showed them

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Speaker 5: my injury. They noted it. It was on the police

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Speaker 5: reports and then I went to a lineup, and when

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Speaker 5: I went to the lineup, I was picked out of

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Speaker 5: the lineup as the suspect.

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Speaker 3: Freedom Agenda is a proud sponsor of this episode of

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Speaker 3: Wrawful Conviction. Freedom Agenda is led by people to directly

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Speaker 3: impacted by incarceration, and they're organizing to get Mayor Eric

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Speaker 3: Adams to follow the law and shut down Rikers Island.

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Speaker 3: Right now, thousands of people are awaiting trial there in

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Speaker 3: life threatening conditions. Freedom Agenda is committed to creating a

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Speaker 3: safer and more just city by winning investments in long

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Speaker 3: neglected communities, protecting the rights of people involved in the

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Speaker 3: criminal legal system, and ending the cycle of violence that

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Speaker 3: Rikers perpetuates. To learn more about the campaign to Close

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Speaker 3: Rikers and to sign up for Freedom Agenda's mailing list,

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Speaker 3: go to Campaign to Close Rikers dot org, slash, get involved,

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Speaker 3: or follow at Freedom Agenda and Why on social media.

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Speaker 3: It's a perfect time to highlight the fact that eyewitness

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Speaker 3: identification has been proven in experiments to be less accurate

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Speaker 3: than guessing when you're in a hyper tense situation like

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Speaker 3: your own life is on the line, when there's gunshots

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Speaker 3: being fired, when it's a running gun situation. Literally in

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Speaker 3: the case, your adrenalinees going, and most people think their

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Speaker 3: minds work like a camera, but in fact we're so

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Speaker 3: easily influenced that in this case, it seems like the

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Speaker 3: police may have influenced these witnesses, and I'm being very kind.

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Speaker 4: They may have.

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Speaker 6: And we believe that she did witness it, that she

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Speaker 6: was there, that we do believe, but we believe that

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Speaker 6: she was guided into picking the wrong person.

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Speaker 1: In addition to any guidance the victim and the witness

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Speaker 1: may have received from law enforcement, Andre's case features a

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Speaker 1: very unfortunate coincidence. It became clear many years later when

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Speaker 1: the true assailant was discovered that he and Andrea could

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Speaker 1: easily be mistaken for one another, especially given the alleged

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Speaker 1: quick glances that the witness and victim were relying on

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Speaker 1: to make their identifications.

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Speaker 5: What were the charges to attempted martis? Two assaults, reckless endangerment,

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Speaker 5: and the list just goes on and on and everything

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Speaker 5: under a gun possession gun possession. The family hired a

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Speaker 5: well known criminal defense attorney named Ira Brown, and the

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Speaker 5: first appearance, Iira says to the judge, but the family

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Speaker 5: retained me, but they don't have enough money to pay

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Speaker 5: for an expert.

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Speaker 6: Can the court pay for an expert? You see, Judge,

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Speaker 6: my client just recently started being able to walk without

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Speaker 6: a cane. He's still undergoing physical therapy, and at the

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Speaker 6: time of this shooting, he couldn't possibly have ran the

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Speaker 6: two city blocks that the shooter did. So I want

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Speaker 6: to get the medical records, and I want to hire

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Speaker 6: an expert orthopedist. And the judge said, well, that sounds

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Speaker 6: like a pretty strong defense. So let me start with

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Speaker 6: five hundred dollars, get the medical records, and then when

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Speaker 6: you hire the expert, let me know you know what

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Speaker 6: else you need, because yes, we'll pay for that. What

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Speaker 6: happened was Ira was on trial two or three times

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Speaker 6: in a row when Andrea's case was on and the

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Speaker 6: family decided we have to get somebody else. At that time,

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Speaker 6: there were a lot of mafia trials going on, you know,

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Speaker 6: the gotty cases, and mafia lawyers were kind of considered

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Speaker 6: the cream of the crop, and they hired a guy

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Speaker 6: named Thomas Lee to take over the case. And that's

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Speaker 6: where everything fell apart. So even though the judge had

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Speaker 6: proved this money, Thomas never pursued the medical evidence after that.

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Speaker 6: And there were two witnesses that he told the court

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Speaker 6: he was trying to locate who would name another shooter,

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Speaker 6: a witness named Graham and a witness named Cleveland. And

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Speaker 6: he gave subpoenas to the judge and he didn't have

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Speaker 6: the addresses on the subpoenas, so judge said, I can't

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Speaker 6: sign a blank subpoena. Get me the addresses and I'll

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Speaker 6: sign them. And he never did anything else after that.

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Speaker 6: The last straw, and what Jason was referring to, was

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Speaker 6: that the one eyewitness was going to testify. The woman

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Speaker 6: in the car ran into Andre's mother and a family

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Speaker 6: friend at a laundromat and they pleaded with her, you know,

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Speaker 6: he made a mistake, my son didn't do this. She

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Speaker 6: reports that to the DA, who reports it to the judge,

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Speaker 6: and the judge said, well, that's perfectly normal. They didn't

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Speaker 6: threaten her. They just told her they think her son

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Speaker 6: is innocent. But what the DA was saying was that

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Speaker 6: she didn't want to come forward and testify. We believe

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Speaker 6: she didn't want to come forward and testify because she

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Speaker 6: knew that she probably did not identify the right person.

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Speaker 6: But what happened after that is the day before she's

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Speaker 6: supposed to testify, a bullet in an envelope ends up

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Speaker 6: under her windshield wiper and it says, this is what

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Speaker 6: happens to rats, you fat bitch.

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Speaker 5: And it was written in reading and ready with two

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Speaker 5: bullets in a left on her windshield right.

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Speaker 6: So of incarcerated. So he didn't do it right the

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Speaker 6: point about Lee being involved, what the judge said was

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Speaker 6: it had to have been someone connected to the defendant.

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Speaker 6: What she didn't consider it was the lawyer was a

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Speaker 6: fully made member of the Bonano crime family and one

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Speaker 6: of the crimes he got arrested for and turned informant

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Speaker 6: was that he would go to the jail and speak

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Speaker 6: to the dawn who was arrested because he could go

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Speaker 6: see him without anybody listening. He's a lawyer, and he

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Speaker 6: would go back and give instructions including who to give

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Speaker 6: a garbage contract to in Staten Island, who to give

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Speaker 6: a garbage contract to in the Bronx, and who to

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Speaker 6: kill and who to promote within the family, who's more

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Speaker 6: likely to intimidate it Like that's their game, that's what

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Speaker 6: they do. This sounds like a mob guy. And it

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Speaker 6: would also explain why he wouldn't do the rest of

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Speaker 6: the work because he says, there's one witness. If she

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Speaker 6: doesn't show up, the case is over, and I can't

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Speaker 6: you know, many times they would tell clients, you know,

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Speaker 6: they would say, don't worry, she's not going to show up.

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Speaker 6: And I would say that, you know, the third floor

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Speaker 6: in Attica is called that she showed up wing. Okay,

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Speaker 6: you know, don't count on someone not showing up. She's

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Speaker 6: going to show up. She hates you, okay. But so

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Speaker 6: Heap was probably counting on that he was going to

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Speaker 6: be able to intimidate her and I don't need to

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Speaker 6: worry about it.

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Speaker 1: Even though it's believed that this witness refused to testify

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Speaker 1: due to her doubts over her identification, the appearance of

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Speaker 1: witness intimidation probably did not reflect well on Andre. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: his attorney's trial strategy hinged on both her absence and

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Speaker 1: being able to cross examine the victim, who had initially

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Speaker 1: said that he could not identify the shooter. Well, both

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Speaker 1: of those things came to pass. The witness's absence at

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Speaker 1: trial had an unforeseen and unfortunate result.

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Speaker 6: They let the DA read her testimony from the jury.

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Speaker 6: It was a total of six questions, Where were you

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Speaker 6: on that night in my car? What happened? Somebody ran

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Speaker 6: by me? What happened after that? I saw a second

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Speaker 6: person would have gone ran after him. What happened after that?

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Speaker 6: I heard shots? What happened after that? He pulled his

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Speaker 6: mask off. Were he able to see his face? Yes?

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Speaker 6: Did you recognize him? Yes? Who Andre Brown? Now she

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Speaker 6: didn't know the name Andre Brown, She only knew was

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Speaker 6: Dre But by the time the grand jury she had

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Speaker 6: learned the name, and he said, how do you know

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Speaker 6: him from around the neighborhood? That's it? Okay, those eight questions,

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Speaker 6: whatever I just went through. That was her testimony. That's

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Speaker 6: what convicted Andre essentially was those eight questions. But she

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Speaker 6: wasn't cross examined about being in the car at night

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Speaker 6: being scared. The jury never heard she almost had a

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Speaker 6: heart attack. The jury never saw how similar Andrea looked

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Speaker 6: to the real shooter. Obviously, Now Nicholson testified, you know

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Speaker 6: also that he saw him as he fell, and he

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Speaker 6: was pretty well cross examined by Lee. I will say

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Speaker 6: that that's what he was good at to say how

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Speaker 6: incredible it could be that you could be falling down

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Speaker 6: looking over your shoulder and catch a glimpse of the guy,

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Speaker 6: you know. So that was the whole evidence.

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Speaker 1: Right there, right So to just summarize the entire evidence

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Speaker 1: against you, Andre, was not cross testimony from this witness.

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Speaker 4: That's it.

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Speaker 5: That's it.

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Speaker 6: No motive, no physical evidence.

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Speaker 2: Those eight questions convicted Andre.

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Speaker 3: I said, so, Andre, that moment when the jury came

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Speaker 3: back in, can you take us inside your heart, your soul,

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Speaker 3: your experience of being in that courtroom jury comes back

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Speaker 3: and says guilty.

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Speaker 5: At that very moment, I was shaking the pinnacle of

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Speaker 5: either I'm going home or I received this forty years.

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Speaker 5: And I sat there and the judge came in and

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Speaker 5: we all rose, and there was one guy I'll never

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Speaker 5: forget in the jury and he kept looking at me

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Speaker 5: and he was shaking his head like, Yo, Yo, it's

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Speaker 5: not good, man, it's not good. And I looked at him.

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Speaker 5: I said what happened? He said, Yo, they found you guilty.

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Speaker 5: And I told Lee, I hit him. I said, Yo,

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Speaker 5: they're gonna find me guilty. He said, what are you

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Speaker 5: talking about. I put on a great defense here, and

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Speaker 5: he put on no defense didn't bring my medical records

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Speaker 5: anything like that to the jury's attention. And I was

400
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Speaker 5: trembling knowing that I was about to be convicted. I

401
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 5: just felt like an entire cold go over my body.

402
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Speaker 5: It's almost as if your soul leaves you, because you

403
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,439
Speaker 5: know this is the transformation of life itself. After I

404
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 5: was convicted, I was taken back upstairs. I was crying

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Speaker 5: continuously taking back to records island. So the judge waited.

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Speaker 5: I think it was like three months before sentencing, and

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Speaker 5: I thought that the judge would have saw the lies

408
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 5: and would have changed her mind and sent me home.

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Speaker 5: I can remember it clearly. I said, she's going to

410
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 5: see it. She'll see the lies, she'll see that Thomas

411
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 5: Lee didn't put on the defense, She'll be able to

412
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 5: see medical records something. But when I come back, I'm

413
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,199
Speaker 5: going to be freed. And when I was sentence, I

414
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 5: snapped again and I said, do you see what you're

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Speaker 5: doing to an innocent man? Do you see what you're

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Speaker 5: taking me away from? Do you see that you're taking

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Speaker 5: me from my college, from my family, from my potential girlfriend,

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Speaker 5: everything that I've worked so hard for. Do you see

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Speaker 5: what you're taking away? From me, and she said, mister Brown,

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Speaker 5: I understand what you have an appeal, and she sentenced me.

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Speaker 5: She said, for the first count, I'm going to sentence

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Speaker 5: you to twenty years, and then she said for the

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Speaker 5: second count, I'm going to sentence you to twenty years,

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Speaker 5: and both of these sentences will run consecutive to one another.

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Speaker 5: And I didn't understand what that meant at the time.

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Speaker 5: And then when I got back and they gave me

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Speaker 5: my sentence and commitment papers, it said forty years. I

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Speaker 5: want our audience to really understand going through a book

429
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Speaker 5: pin therapy the three stages of prison because it changes

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Speaker 5: the cognition of your mind.

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Speaker 2: Well, so you were a.

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Speaker 1: Child, so your brain is still developing when you went

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Speaker 1: into prison.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, so you know I'm arrested, kicking, screaming, being dragged

435
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 5: into prison saying you did something that you didn't do.

436
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 5: I go through the central Booking is the first stage

437
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 5: of prison. Straight madness and chaos. People sleeping on the floor,

438
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 5: you're trying to get to the phone system, You're trying

439
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 5: to lay on a bench where individuals is fighting and

440
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,479
Speaker 5: pulling and tugging and saying if you're not built like that,

441
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 5: you're not sleeping on the bench. You're going to sleep

442
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 5: under the bench. You're going to sleep on the floor.

443
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 5: You may sleep near the toilet, whereas all urine filled.

444
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 5: So this is the first stage of being thrown inside

445
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 5: the madness. And then the second stage is going through

446
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 5: reik As Island. And now you're fighting to get on

447
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 5: the phones again, you're fighting in the yard. You're making

448
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 5: sure now you're exercising so that you can stay, you know,

449
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 5: buil for anything that's going to come at you. So

450
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 5: it's a war zone from Central Book and two ryk

451
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 5: As Island, and now you're getting thrown inside the Department

452
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 5: of Corrections where they're supposed to rehabilitate you. But now

453
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 5: it's more gangs, it's more violence, it's more police assault,

454
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 5: it's more just the pitfalls of the criminal justice system.

455
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 5: So immediately my mind started to trigger Andre. Now you're

456
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 5: going to be like them. You have to now engage

457
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 5: into the brutality to make it to take phone, to

458
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 5: carry raisers, to carry sharp objects, to protect yourself. You

459
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 5: have to battle in order to have your core beliefs

460
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 5: and your freedom's met. In the minds of these men

461
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 5: who understand that we're criminals.

462
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: When you put an innocent child in prison with people

463
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: that are actually dangerous through d fist people in prison,

464
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: you have to survive, absolutely, and that could also be

465
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: a huge hindrance to him getting out if he got

466
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: in a fight or someone attacked him and something happened.

467
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't even think about that when we

468
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 1: put someone like you in prison that's innocent, you could

469
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: come out an actual criminal.

470
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 6: At that point, it came up but as strong because

471
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 6: he got into a fight and the DIA brought it

472
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 6: to the attention that he got into a violent altercation

473
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 6: at prison because they made a bail application. So even

474
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 6: though you didn't know that, that's exactly what happened.

475
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: I didn't know that, but yeah, that could have hurt

476
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: your chances of getting out absolutely.

477
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: So Oscar, how did you get this man out of prison?

478
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 5: Yeah? That's good to the good stuff here. Well.

479
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 6: So one of the reasons I got involved in Andrea's

480
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 6: case is this is my neighborhood. We went to the

481
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 6: same high school, Christopher Columbus.

482
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 4: In the Bronx for Columbus, he wrongly identified a whole country.

483
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 6: Exactly, wasn't even on the same continent. But in any event,

484
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 6: the case right, I said, it spoke to me, but

485
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 6: also showed how weak it was. We just found out

486
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 6: during freedom of information laws, which is everybody's good friend.

487
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 6: We first found a report at DD five that was

488
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 6: not given to either mister Ira Brown or to Lee

489
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 6: that showed that the police had actually tested the bullets

490
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 6: and found that the bullets on the fifteenth matched the

491
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 6: gun that was used on the eleventh, So we already

492
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 6: knew that Virgo had one of the guns, so this

493
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 6: had to be the gun that was shooting at Virgo

494
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 6: on the eleventh. So frankly, I felt that was almost

495
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 6: enough because now we had a motive for the jury

496
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 6: that the same person who shot at these two young

497
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 6: men also shot them on the fifteenth, and O'Neil Virgo

498
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 6: had told the police he got a look at the

499
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 6: person who shot him on the eleventh and he didn't

500
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 6: think it was Andre. So if Andre didn't shoot him

501
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 6: on the eleventh, and how could Andre have had the

502
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 6: gun on the fifteenth, And the judge at his hearing

503
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 6: had a lot of questions about that. That was the

504
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 6: first thing. We then found another DD five of a witness,

505
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 6: Courtney Weezy, who said that the shooter was wearing a TAM.

506
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 6: Tam is what Jamaica men were to hold. It's a

507
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 6: big woolf cat. Courtney Weezy said the shooter had a

508
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 6: TAM and he was showing a photo array with Andrea's

509
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 6: picture in it and said he couldn't recognize anybody in

510
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 6: the photo ray. We only got the first page and

511
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 6: I noticed there was a check mark on the front

512
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 6: page as witness can I d yes? And then no

513
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 6: one ever got the second page, said makes.

514
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: Id no, so that's a Brady violation.

515
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 6: That would be a Brady violation. But they argued that

516
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 6: the shooter had a mask on, so you know, it

517
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 6: wasn't a big deal and he couldn't see it. But

518
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 6: the point is he had a right to know that.

519
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 6: And so I said, well, there'd be no reason for

520
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 6: Andre to be wearing a TAM. So this shooter was

521
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 6: likely Jamaican. And I knew that back then there was

522
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 6: a lot of battle between Jamaicans and American blacks over

523
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 6: turf as the Jamaicans are moving into the Bronx, So

524
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 6: didnt makes sense to me that both of the victims

525
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 6: were Jamaican. Why would a Jamaican shoot these victims. But

526
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 6: we found out when we located the witnesses was that

527
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 6: the real shooter was a Jamaican guy who happened to

528
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 6: have gotten into the neighborhood a little bit earlier and

529
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 6: was working with America Blacks to sell weed at that location.

530
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 6: And even though they were Jamaican, he didn't like that

531
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 6: they were working his corner, and that's what the shooting

532
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 6: was all about. The guy who we discovered was the

533
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 6: real shooter, we did some research and tried to get

534
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 6: his yearbook picture, and we got his middle school yearbook picture.

535
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 6: By sheer coincidence. The principal of the middle school that

536
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 6: he went to ended up being my English teacher from

537
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 6: back in seventh grade. So there's a lot of connections

538
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 6: for me in the case. If you put these pictures

539
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 6: side by side, Andre and the real shooter look extremely similar.

540
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 6: And that's a key factor is that the person who

541
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 6: might have seen the real shooter when his mass was

542
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 6: off could have easily picked him as Andre. They were

543
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 6: the exact same height and the exact same weight, okay,

544
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 6: and a very similar face. When we found the motion,

545
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 6: we showed, hey, look what tam means. The real shooter

546
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 6: we found out was Jamaican. He would wear that the

547
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 6: victims were selling weed. Andre never sold weed. This guy

548
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 6: only sold weed. Seven months after this shooting, guess what happened.

549
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 6: Real shooter gets gunned down.

550
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 5: Just finding the funeral picture where he actually had dreads, right,

551
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 5: we were able to actually put together the two pieces

552
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 5: of the tim and now the dreads with the funeral pictures. Right.

553
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 6: We found his funeral program, which is great because it

554
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 6: said his real name, but in the middle it said Bonkers. Okay,

555
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 6: his nickname was Bonkers, and the witness said, this guy

556
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 6: was crazy. This guy would shoot you up for no reason.

557
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 6: So it's like, let's put this together here, okay. And

558
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 6: then we actually found a surgeon who did the surgery

559
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 6: on Andre's leg. He had a very serious condition called

560
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 6: compartment syndrome. And what happens there is you get shot

561
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 6: and your leg swells up so much that they have

562
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 6: to expose all four quadrants of your calf. They cut

563
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 6: it open, and they leave you lying in bed with

564
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 6: open wounds until the pressure goes down. He had skin grasps.

565
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 6: We're talking about a scar from his thigh down to

566
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 6: his angle, proven atrophy, and the doctor actually remembered the case,

567
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 6: which is unbelievable. He's the head of trauma at Jacobi

568
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 6: in the Bronx, which is a trauma one center, so

569
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 6: this is not some quack. And now he was head

570
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 6: of medicine and surgery at my Moderny's in Brooklyn.

571
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 5: And listen, I just want to say that when you're

572
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 5: wrongfully convicted, you better know God. All right, We're not

573
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 5: going to allow that not to be set on this

574
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 5: forum right now. It really must be stated because a

575
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 5: lot of this is sheer luck and God's umbrella had

576
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 5: to be on me because my surgeon was alive.

577
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 6: And he said, there's no way someone with this injury

578
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 6: could have ran. He said, maybe he could pull his

579
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 6: leg along, he said, but he would have a noticeable

580
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 6: limp at best. And the judge at Andrea's hearings said,

581
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 6: could he jog? He said, no, he could not jog.

582
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 6: He could not jog. He could not run this quickly.

583
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 6: The problem was because the case was so old, there

584
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 6: were no physical therapy records to show how far along

585
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 6: to me when in.

586
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: God those medical record to because his amazing wife, and

587
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: not to mention my.

588
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 5: Brother Devon who's not here. Also where we were on

589
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 5: the phone, like illegally at that point, making three week

590
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 5: calls to Jacobe Hospital to locate these records.

591
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 6: This surgeon he actually called over there to try to

592
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 6: get him himself. I mean, he really knew that something

593
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 6: wrong was going on. I got to give him Ronald Simon.

594
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 6: He said, there's got to be pt records there. Maybe

595
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 6: I five call, you know, we'll find them. And no

596
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 6: one could find those therapy recordscause they don't preserve them.

597
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 6: It's talk about the year in nineteen ninety, we're looking

598
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 6: for them in twenty twenty, you know. But we did

599
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 6: have Ira Brown telling the judge at his first court appearance,

600
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 6: my client is still undergoing physical therapy and only recently

601
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 6: was able to walk without a cane, and so that

602
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 6: formed the basis.

603
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 3: You know, there are a series of sort of miracles,

604
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 3: right that led to you being here. But it points out,

605
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 3: you know, my estimate is that there's probably around two

606
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 3: hundred thousand innocent people in prison while we're sitting here

607
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 3: right now in this country, and that's probably conservative. And

608
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: those people, many of them don't have a way out.

609
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: They don't have an Oscar Michelin, right, they don't have

610
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: a Maggie feeling to do a podcast about the case.

611
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 4: In fact, this goes back to.

612
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 3: Very early when we first started the Wrongful Conviction podcast

613
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: and our producer back then was a woman named Sabine Jansen.

614
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 4: She alerted me to your case.

615
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: I brought it to our fantastic PR person named Don Cameron.

616
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: To generate some interest, we brought Jeffrey Deskovic. I was

617
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: about to go there and let me brag on Jeffrey

618
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 3: for a second. So Jeffrey Deskovic right there sitting in

619
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 3: the front row, standing in the front row, wrongfully convicted,

620
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: served sixteen years in New York State and is now

621
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 3: a member of the bar.

622
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 4: And he turned out to be Listen.

623
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 5: As a joke, and as a joke, you know, we

624
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 5: say that Jeffrey is the media whore.

625
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: Okay, they love your case because you brought the case.

626
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 5: Listen, they love jeff the media so immediately. And it's

627
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 5: not a joke, guys.

628
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 6: He pays a lot of attention to this.

629
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 5: Yes, that's for sure, because Jeff is my brother. Jeff

630
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 5: is the guy who went hard, extremely hard in the

631
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 5: media for my case. Him and then Sabine will never

632
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 5: forget Sabine because she contacted Jason, and Jason said, who's

633
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 5: Andre Brown? And Sabin explained it and he said, listen,

634
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 5: we got to put Dawn on this because the only

635
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 5: thing that Governor Cuomo does in the morning is he

636
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 5: reads and not bad. So at that point he put

637
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 5: Dawn right in the fray of everything, and the campaign began.

638
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 6: First, we went to the Conviction Review Unit. They rejected

639
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 6: the case and so we filed a four to forty.

640
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 5: At that time, it was COVID and they were not

641
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 5: trying to bring me down on a hearing.

642
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 6: We had asked for a virtual hearing because the courts

643
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 6: were closed to in person hearings, and the DA opposed that,

644
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 6: and then Jeff four organized a rally in front of

645
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 6: her office to try to get her to agree to

646
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 6: a virtual hearing, and we had a hearing and the

647
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 6: judge agreed that at the very least Lee was ineffective

648
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 6: for not presenting the medical evidence, and just to put

649
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 6: the icing on it. I've known Jeff for a long time.

650
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 6: We kind of mentored him through with his law school experience,

651
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 6: and he became an admitted attorney right before we had

652
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 6: got a hearing granted. So I asked him to second

653
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 6: seat me and Andre was 's first client. So and Jeff,

654
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 6: he's bat in one hundred.

655
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: So actually, Oscar, I do want to point out not

656
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: exactly one hundred Andre.

657
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 6: Oh, I shouldn't say that's right.

658
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: Andrea is not exonerated yet, which is why we were

659
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 1: here telling his story because the bronx DA is actually

660
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 1: still fighting his conviction, wanting to put Andre back in prison.

661
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: So not only do we need to exonerate him, we

662
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: need to make sure that he doesn't go back to prison.

663
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're filed an appeal of the khure of the conviction,

664
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 6: and I got to tell you, you know, the odds

665
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 6: of its success are not high, they're low. But this

666
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 6: room speaks to what happens when you caught up in

667
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 6: the criminal justice system. Right, if you're counting on the

668
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 6: criminal justicism to work out for you, you know you're

669
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 6: going to get very sorely disappointed. So it really, you know,

670
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 6: is a case that should not be appealed. Never mind

671
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 6: the fact that he served well over twenty years for

672
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 6: a crime that we established, you know, he didn't commit,

673
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 6: but to just drag it on, have this over his head.

674
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 6: They fought bail. Now after the judge vacated his conviction.

675
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 6: They asked for five hundred thousand dollars bail. Okay, the

676
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 6: judge released him, but to supervise release, just like it

677
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 6: wouldn't give us the measure that he was actually innocent.

678
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 6: Took the safe path and said he was ineffective. You know,

679
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 6: as I said to Jason before we came out here,

680
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 6: I've been involved in a lot of cases. I've never

681
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 6: had a case with this much evidence of innocence. And

682
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 6: the judge just couldn't get there. And then he couldn't

683
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 6: just do he had to send him to supervised release.

684
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 6: So it's just constant. The justice system loves finality. They

685
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 6: want to, you know, keep that hold on you. To

686
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 6: the point where when he first started going to the

687
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 6: supervised release place, which is now run by the Fortune Society,

688
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 6: they called us and said, why are we supervising this person?

689
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 6: He went to another program to be interviewed and ended

690
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 6: up hiring him instead of supervising. He works there. Now, Yes,

691
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 6: I mean it's really daunting and it's very discomforting to

692
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 6: believe that. You know, we now have to wait. It'll

693
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 6: take about two years to decide this appeal, and I want.

694
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 3: To get to what people here can do, if they

695
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 3: can write letters, or if there's anything else they can

696
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 3: do to make their voices heard.

697
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: For Andre, well, I do know there's a GoFundMe for Andre.

698
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: It's GoFundMe such support Andre Brown, So that exists, so

699
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: please donate to.

700
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 4: That if you can, and we'll link to it in

701
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 4: the episode. Yeah description as well.

702
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: And you guys have the power to vote for the DA.

703
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: I mean, we can vote in progressive district attorneys. So

704
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 1: just so you guys know that you have the power

705
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: to make sure that there are conviction review units, that

706
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: there are progressive das that don't fight these convictions that

707
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: are so obvious, so obvious.

708
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 4: And before we go to we have a tradition on

709
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 4: the show. We call it closing arguments.

710
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 3: But before we do that, there's one other very special

711
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: person in this room I want to acknowledge, and this

712
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 3: is a young man named Aj.

713
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 4: Right, your son's daf Aj, And I.

714
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: Heard somewhere that he scored thirty points in a basketball

715
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 3: game this week.

716
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 5: So if there's any.

717
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: Agents in the room, might want to get in now

718
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 3: because he's only twelve.

719
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: Actually, I did want to talk about Ajamika Tamika and

720
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: Andre you knew each other from high school, yes, and

721
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: now you're married.

722
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: You did over twenty years in prison.

723
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: And actually we talked about how you're lucky that you're alive,

724
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: because if you're a leg you're lucky now that you're out,

725
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people get out and don't have family,

726
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: and you have a wonderful wife and a son, yes,

727
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: that you're coming home to right.

728
00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 5: There, right there, right Look for only do people not

729
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 5: have family, They don't have hope, they don't have faith.

730
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 5: They lose their souls inside of prison because they don't

731
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,959
Speaker 5: have friends. I've seen individuals walk in the yard until

732
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 5: they turn mad because they're innocent, and now everybody has

733
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 5: shunned them. So what does that really mean when society

734
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 5: itself make you the treads and then inside of the

735
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 5: prison you're a nobody.

736
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 6: Well, it's just a dangerous place. Where we were waiting

737
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 6: for Andrea's hearing because of COVID. One of the reasons

738
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 6: we filed for the virtual hearing was Andrew is actually

739
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 6: on the phone with Tamika on Thanksgiving Day and some

740
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 6: other guy in the prison thought he was on the

741
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 6: phone too long and nearly took Andre's that stabbed him

742
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 6: in the face with a pen. Yeah, while he was

743
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 6: on the phone with Tamika, right, Yes, And you know

744
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 6: I wrote to the judge and said, look, we got

745
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 6: to get this guy hearing like he's in the Honors prison.

746
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 6: By way, this is the place in the Eastern that

747
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 6: those are here. They call it happy Nap because it's

748
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 6: like the place where you're supposed to be the safest.

749
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 6: And he got attacked just on the phone. So, you know,

750
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 6: sending someone to prison is you know, it could potentially

751
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 6: be a death sentence.

752
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: It is for too many people. And we know that're

753
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 3: right here in Manhattan and right here in New York

754
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 3: Rikers Island. Since may Or Adams took office, twenty nine

755
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 3: people at last count, have been murdered and Rikers Island,

756
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 3: and most of them, over one in b jar of

757
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 3: them had even been convicted of anything.

758
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 6: Yet most of them were presumed innocent.

759
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, just waiting for trials detainees.

760
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

761
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 3: That could have been you, or could have been so

762
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 3: many other people in this room. So anyone who's listened

763
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 3: to the Wrongful Conviction podcast knows this is my favorite

764
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 3: part of the show. We call it closing arguments. It's

765
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: where we thank each of you, Maggie and I for

766
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 3: being here with us today, everybody in the audience, everybody

767
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 3: listening at home, and then turn it over to Oscar

768
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: first to say anything else is left to be said,

769
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 3: and then you take us off into the sunset anything

770
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 3: you want to say.

771
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 6: First of all, thank you for being involved in the

772
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 6: issue and spread the word. Tell people that there were

773
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 6: folks in there who do belong there. There are many

774
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 6: people who serve their time and are route that will

775
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 6: never get the justice that they deserve, and that time

776
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 6: has been lost. WI let people know that this is

777
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 6: an issue that should be addressed at every time that

778
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 6: there's a DA running for office.

779
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 5: And for me, I got to mention some of my

780
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 5: great colleagues, Michael Cobb, who we all know is shat Do,

781
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 5: Raphael Martinez, Pedro Rodriguez, Nochia Rose, Ronaldo Morgan. These men

782
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 5: are still fighting for their freedom today and I mentioned

783
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 5: them because I want everybody here in the live audience

784
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 5: at home to take a second look. I give you

785
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 5: the analogy that I give to some of the students

786
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 5: when I did my last speech with Jeff and it

787
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 5: is like when you guys are driving home and you

788
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 5: just see something as simple as a pedestrian pulled over

789
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 5: on the side of the road, and you're just like, oh,

790
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 5: it must be a lawful stop, so you just keep moving.

791
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 5: Take a second look, take a second look when you

792
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 5: see somebody in trouble, because you never will know when

793
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 5: it's your time to give that help in hand.

794
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You

795
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 3: can listen to this and all the Lava for Good

796
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 3: podcasts one week early by subscribing to Lava for Good

797
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 3: Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production

798
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 3: team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as my

799
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 3: fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn.

800
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 3: The music in this production was supplied by three time

801
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

802
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 3: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

803
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 3: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

804
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 3: at it's Jason Vlamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

805
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 3: Lava for Good Podcasts association with Signal Company Number one