Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have
Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: Walk a walka walkah, Jamie, uh huh yeah, any thought.
Speaker 3: I loved it. You came in hot, you came in hot.
Speaker 2: Well how about this one? How about this one?
Speaker 3: Me me, me, me, me, me me. Oh see, now
Speaker 3: you're speaking my language. I love speaker so much. My god,
Speaker 3: oh my god. Welcome to the Vechtel Cast. I'm in
Speaker 3: as good a mood as possible right now because we
Speaker 3: just watched the Muppet Movie nineteen seventy nine and.
Speaker 2: It's your birthday episode, Jamie, Happy birthday.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. Yes, it is indeed my birthday episode.
Speaker 3: Can't wait to live, laugh, love all over my birthday.
Speaker 3: I don't even know really what I'm like planning to
Speaker 3: do this year. I don't have any plans. It's just
Speaker 3: like a random you know, it's not an exciting birthday.
Speaker 3: So we'll see, we'll see what I choose. I think
Speaker 3: I actually kind of just want to go to knats
Speaker 3: Berry Farm. Again.
Speaker 2: I'll go with you. I'll I'll be there.
Speaker 3: Do you want to come? I was like, I have
Speaker 3: made zero plans, but I kind of want to go
Speaker 3: to Knots Berry Farm. I want to go see Snoopy.
Speaker 3: I feel like it would it would help. And the
Speaker 3: last slash. First time I went to Knots Berry Farm,
Speaker 3: which was also on a birthday, I knew that they
Speaker 3: were like a berry farm, but I didn't know that
Speaker 3: they put berries in like any food. Like I had
Speaker 3: berry meat loaf, okay, and it was good. I was like,
Speaker 3: what the fuck is going on in this place?
Speaker 2: I've been so I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's really fun. The theming is all over the place,
Speaker 3: and it's like I would say that it's a flop,
Speaker 3: but it's so kind of funny where they're like the
Speaker 3: theme is California and you're like, okay, but they're like,
Speaker 3: but Snoopies here and berries and berries. They also have
Speaker 3: their own characters, like they're trying to make their own lore,
Speaker 3: but it's like it's just not happening. They're like the
Speaker 3: Bear family. You know them, and you're like, no, who
Speaker 3: are they? And they're like the Bear family and there's
Speaker 3: a whole ride dedicated to the Bear Family. They have
Speaker 3: an antagonist. He's the Wolf. He's trying to steal all
Speaker 3: the berries, and you're supposed to be invested in this
Speaker 3: journey they're on, and you're just like, but who the
Speaker 3: hell are they? Anyways, I bought merch. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: someone's got to because no one gives a shit about
Speaker 3: this Bear family. Unfortunately, I can't wait to go again.
Speaker 3: Let's go, let's go. I want to get berry meat loaf. Anyways,
Speaker 3: that my two birthday wishes are to go to Minot
Speaker 3: Berry Farm and two. I mean, it's such a fun
Speaker 3: time of year when you get to enforce your will
Speaker 3: on the Bechdel Cast feed. It's so thrilling. What were
Speaker 3: your picks this year? You did Mister and Missus Smith.
Speaker 3: He did Mars Attacks. What was the last one?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, who can remember? Not me? I don't know.
Speaker 2: I have no idea.
Speaker 3: It's so funny because I feel like every year I'm like, ugh,
Speaker 3: I'm out of favorite movies. I can't like what I'm
Speaker 3: just gonna have to start picking random stuff. But that's
Speaker 3: the thing about movies. There's always more good ones that
Speaker 3: you don't want to shut up about So, yeah, this
Speaker 3: is my main feed pick and then we'll also have
Speaker 3: some other picks going on the Patreon aka Matreon, which
Speaker 3: you can check out.
Speaker 2: Oh wait, it was Monsters Inc. Was my other birthday pick.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all bangers, all bangers and yeah, so before we
Speaker 3: get into the episode about the Muppet Movie nineteen seventy nine,
Speaker 3: parentheses not the Jason Siegal one. Even though it's fine,
Speaker 3: I feel like people are like people remember that movie
Speaker 3: less charitably than they should because they don't like Jason Segull.
Speaker 3: And I get it.
Speaker 2: He is in the movie too much.
Speaker 3: Yes, he's in the movie way too much. And he
Speaker 3: has just like him. And I was thinking about this
Speaker 3: a lot recently because of just like the terror that
Speaker 3: has been the advertising campaign for Harold and the Purple Crayon.
Speaker 3: But like he and Zachary Levi, they like share this
Speaker 3: like bizarre aura of menace to me more so Zachary Levi,
Speaker 3: I really feel like there's like something You're not quite
Speaker 3: right with him. I know, he's like he makes me uneasy.
Speaker 3: Same the Shazam thing. Wait, I think about your Shazam
Speaker 3: Shazam incident.
Speaker 2: You mean the time that I went to go see
Speaker 2: Shazam one with our dear friend Bryant, and that there
Speaker 2: was someone in the elevator with us after the movie
Speaker 2: who had also just seen Shazam, and he's.
Speaker 3: Like, that was so fun.
Speaker 2: Did you guys like it? And not being able to
Speaker 2: pick up on social here's very well. Sometimes I was like,
Speaker 2: I thought it fucking sucked and it was flimsy storytelling
Speaker 2: and it was visually bad and everything about it sucked.
Speaker 2: And the guy's like, oh, I liked it. Brian's behind
Speaker 2: me being like, Kitlyn, shut the fuck up.
Speaker 3: I think that in that interaction, everyone wins like I was.
Speaker 2: Right to there express my opinion. What oh two men
Speaker 2: went to silence a femme person. No, I'm gonna say
Speaker 2: my thoughts.
Speaker 3: And everyone got a great story out of that. So
Speaker 3: there's no, there's nothing wrong. But yeah, no, Zachary Levi
Speaker 3: Aora of Menace, Jason Siegel a little bit less. So anyways,
Speaker 3: the Muppet movie itself, I think, oh, well, what is it?
Speaker 3: They gave it the same title, don't I think it's
Speaker 3: called the Muppets, that one the Muppets. It's a fine movie,
Speaker 3: but we're not talking about it today. We're talking about
Speaker 3: real oh O G Muppet lore. But before we do that,
Speaker 3: and six four minutes into the episode, Welcome to the
Speaker 3: Bechtel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus.
Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Donte. This is our show where
Speaker 2: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Speaker 2: Bechdel Test as a jumping off point. Which you know,
Speaker 2: it's a birthday episode. We don't really have time to
Speaker 2: get into that. We are too busy having fun talking
Speaker 2: about the Muppets. So you can just look up the
Speaker 2: Bechdel tell in your own time, or listen to any
Speaker 2: of our other five hundred fucking episodes.
Speaker 3: Google it.
Speaker 2: I don't think this is sorry to be hostile about it.
Speaker 3: No, but there's You've had five hundred opportunities to get
Speaker 3: it together for today, and so you know, I just like,
Speaker 3: don't even really know what to say to you. After
Speaker 3: all we've been through. It's been eight years. Say something
Speaker 3: in eighty four years.
Speaker 2: Well, basically, here's something that does pass the Bechdel test
Speaker 2: if you learn by example, Hey Jamie m hmmm, Hey
Speaker 2: Caitlyn houpid birth I'm like, are you gonna do that?
Speaker 2: Happy birthday? Happy Muppet movie Day?
Speaker 3: Thank you, and that would pass, and that.
Speaker 2: Passed the backdel test. Okay, Yeah, anyway, Jamie, what is
Speaker 2: your relationship with this movie Slash the Muppets in general?
Speaker 3: I love this movie and I love the Muppets, pretty
Speaker 3: short story, always have, always will This movie in particular,
Speaker 3: I don't think I saw until like a little later on.
Speaker 3: I feel like the Muppet content I had spinning in
Speaker 3: my home outside of Sesame Street obviously, which almost feels
Speaker 3: like it's own thing. Yeah, but I was like raised
Speaker 3: on the Muppet movies that were coming out when I
Speaker 3: was a kid, So I'm thinking Muppet Treasure Island, Muppets
Speaker 3: in Space, Oh my gosh, there's that Muppet Christmas Carol,
Speaker 3: like the ones that were more recent, and so I
Speaker 3: think it was like a little later, and by later,
Speaker 3: I mean I was probably ten, like when I saw
Speaker 3: the older Muppet movies, Great Muppet Caper, the Muppet Movie,
Speaker 3: Muppets Take Manhattan, et cetera. And then it wasn't until
Speaker 3: college that I saw The Muppet Show, which for a
Speaker 3: long time was like pretty hard to at least unless
Speaker 3: you like bought the DVDs or whatever, like, was pretty
Speaker 3: hard to access. And at least for what I could tell,
Speaker 3: they weren't like re aired very often, and so then
Speaker 3: I sort of had a second run of really being
Speaker 3: into the Muppets in college, when I found, God, this
Speaker 3: is gonna make me sound so fucking old. I found
Speaker 3: a lot of old Muppet Show episodes on dailymotion dot com,
Speaker 3: and I watched them and like really fell in love
Speaker 3: with like deep Muppet loer and like how funny and
Speaker 3: edgy and cool they were. I watched the Jason Siegel
Speaker 3: Muppet movies. The first one I was like into, especially
Speaker 3: because do you remember the cultural moment, Kaitlin when we
Speaker 3: were all so excited that Brett from Flight of the
Speaker 3: Concords won an Oscar for his Muppet song. Yes, we
Speaker 3: were excited about that. I was excited about that. I
Speaker 3: was there the Tina Fe Mumpet one. I was like, eh,
Speaker 3: not as much.
Speaker 2: Most wanted wanted.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't too wild about it was
Speaker 3: definitely not wild about their like weird the office ripoff
Speaker 3: that they aired.
Speaker 2: I didn't even know that existed until watching a video essay,
Speaker 2: which we'll bring up later on. But yeah, because it
Speaker 2: was not on my radar at all.
Speaker 3: It was a mess. I don't know why that was
Speaker 3: so very on my radar, but I was watching that
Speaker 3: show week to week wo and I remember the like
Speaker 3: backlash of I mean, it's so funny. I Okay, this
Speaker 3: is my birthday episode and I have COVID and my
Speaker 3: dad died, so this is gonna be like a Vibes episode.
Speaker 3: But I do like, if my brain was working as normal,
Speaker 3: I do think that there's like an element of like
Speaker 3: the brief amount of time that quote unquote Kermit and
Speaker 3: Miss Piggy broke up being very similar to the times
Speaker 3: that quote unquote Barbie and Ken broke up, where they
Speaker 3: are like an iteration of like they have to be
Speaker 3: dating forever. And there are times canonically and they're definitely
Speaker 3: with Kermit and Miss Piggy where I think it's Muppets
Speaker 3: Take Manhattan where at the end they canonically get married.
Speaker 3: But there's just an element to That's something I really
Speaker 3: love about the Muppet World is like there's this element
Speaker 3: to it where the relationship dynamics remain the same, but
Speaker 3: things just like reset every once in a while, and
Speaker 3: it's like, oh, sure, maybe it's like cathartic for some
Speaker 3: people to see Miss Piggy and Kermit get married, but
Speaker 3: in the next movie they're just dating again and like
Speaker 3: they're having the same relationship problems. And there's like this
Speaker 3: kind of cyclical nature to the world of the Muppets
Speaker 3: that I really love and find comforting and I just
Speaker 3: love them. Caitlin, who are your top muppets? I'm really
Speaker 3: having a hard time, Like it's hard to choose, but
Speaker 3: I have like a few muppets that I'm like, I
Speaker 3: will ride for them, and a few muppets that I'm
Speaker 3: like overrated. And it's gonna be controversial.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. There are probably many muppets that
Speaker 2: I don't know about or know well enough to say,
Speaker 2: because when I share my history with the Muppets, you'll
Speaker 2: find that I have not been exposed to as much
Speaker 2: Muppet media, okay as you perhaps. But my favorites are Gonzo, Rizzo,
Speaker 2: the Rat, I like Ralph, and I'm a big fan
Speaker 2: of Statler and Waldorf.
Speaker 3: I mean, how could you not they rock?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think those are my faves.
Speaker 3: Okay, how about you my faves are? I mean, it
Speaker 3: feels almost like a kapa to be like, I love
Speaker 3: Kur but I.
Speaker 2: Do well as you can and should Kermit and.
Speaker 3: Miss Piggy unequivocally. I also love Rizzo. I also love
Speaker 3: Statler and Waldorf. I think Beaker is probably my favorite,
Speaker 3: of course, he's probably my all time favorite Muppet.
Speaker 2: And I like the Swedish Chef too.
Speaker 3: The Swedish Chef is awesome.
Speaker 2: And I like Fazzy Bear.
Speaker 3: Okay, see that's where we're gonna have. I hate Fozzy Bear.
Speaker 2: I just love a bear, you know, a bear who
Speaker 2: likes a sweet treat.
Speaker 3: Fozzy Bear is so triggering for me. Think of how
Speaker 3: many delusional comedians we've spent time around fair I just
Speaker 3: think Fozzy Bear like there is such a beauty to
Speaker 3: the Muppets world. Of like they're always pursuing this dream.
Speaker 3: They're always like very positive and very encouraging. And I
Speaker 3: feel like Fozzy Bear disrupts that from me because I
Speaker 3: think he should quit. I think he like his dreams
Speaker 3: could only come true completely by chance or by riding
Speaker 3: the coattails. He's talentless, he's annoying.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 3: I just like don't really support his dreams coming true.
Speaker 3: I just like, don't.
Speaker 2: I think I just like a bear and a hat
Speaker 2: a Lah Paddington.
Speaker 3: Okay, yes that's fair, but it's like I just like
Speaker 3: think that Fozzy Bear like doesn't deserve success and I
Speaker 3: resent him.
Speaker 2: I resent him, but I mean we see his like
Speaker 2: shtick in this movie and it does suck very badly.
Speaker 2: So okay, I I could be swayed against Fozzy Bear.
Speaker 3: I think Fozzy Bear to me represents every bad stand
Speaker 3: up I've ever had to spend time with and like
Speaker 3: tacitly encourage and I resent that. Yeah, it's just like,
Speaker 3: you know what, no Fozzy Bar like quit, learn a trade,
Speaker 3: get out like your art has no play. And I
Speaker 3: resent Fozzy Bear because he's more successful than me.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we're getting somewhere.
Speaker 3: Now household name. He has a household name and we're not.
Speaker 3: And that's fucked up and it represents a lot of
Speaker 3: what's wrong with America is Fozzy Bear. He sucks. I
Speaker 3: don't like Fozzy Bear. I think that's really my only
Speaker 3: controversial ralph. I like, but I feel like he's like
Speaker 3: a problematic favorite.
Speaker 2: Well especially his conduct.
Speaker 3: His conduct, his conduct, And I would say that I
Speaker 3: since I was a kid, I love the band, I
Speaker 3: love Janice.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I love.
Speaker 3: Animal, but I didn't really remember or realize that animal
Speaker 3: like really was I mean, obviously the elements of his character.
Speaker 3: He's loud, he screams one word, he's like a Pokemon
Speaker 3: on meth, but that he's a bit misogynist in these
Speaker 3: early iterations I kind of forgot. I kind of forgot.
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of the Muppets low key
Speaker 2: don't like women.
Speaker 3: And whether this how to do with the fuck that
Speaker 3: the Muppet creative team is all men and we can't
Speaker 3: be sure and we can't be sure, but anyways, yes,
Speaker 3: there's a lot to be discussed. I also was thinking, Okay,
Speaker 3: maybe I'm just thinking about the Scooby Doo of it all,
Speaker 3: but there was I'm trying to think, if we can
Speaker 3: think of a third example of this, it's a thing. Okay,
Speaker 3: maybe it's just a coincidence, but in this movie we
Speaker 3: meet like Kermit's nephew, Scrabby Doo is Scooby Doo's nephew, Like,
Speaker 3: I can't think of what is that the uncle nephew relationship?
Speaker 3: Being like critical, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean there's Scrooge McDuck is that his name?
Speaker 2: And then his nephews Huey, Dewey, and Louie.
Speaker 3: It's interesting. I don't have a specific thought on it,
Speaker 3: but it's like all movies are about fathers and sons,
Speaker 3: but every once in a while they're about uncles and nephews.
Speaker 3: WHOA makes you think it's kind of interesting. I mean,
Speaker 3: Robin the Frog doesn't really have much of a role
Speaker 3: in this except to be like, hey, Uncle Kermit, is
Speaker 3: this a movie? And He's like, yes, m hm. Anyways,
Speaker 3: I hate Fozzy Bear. I just wanted to get that
Speaker 3: out of the way at the top.
Speaker 2: Point while taken and I'm finding myself less enthusiastic about
Speaker 2: Fozzy so.
Speaker 3: And I would just say to all of the fans,
Speaker 3: like Fozzy fans, do not interact with me. I don't
Speaker 3: want to hear from you. I'm not interested in the
Speaker 3: counter argument. Like I've heard it all. You're not gonna
Speaker 3: sell me on him?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, fair period. My history with the Muppets, yes,
Speaker 2: I like the Muppets a lot, although a lot of
Speaker 2: what I know about them comes either from cultural osmosis
Speaker 2: or specifically the Muppet Christmas Carol, which is my favorite
Speaker 2: holiday movie of all time. But I haven't really consumed
Speaker 2: a whole lot of other Muppet media. And if there
Speaker 2: are Muppets who weren't in the Muppet Christmas Carol, I
Speaker 2: have no idea who they are. For example, Wow, I
Speaker 2: was on a kickball team when I lived in Boston,
Speaker 2: Brag that was called the Electric Mayhem, and I had
Speaker 2: no idea that that was a Muppets reference for the
Speaker 2: entire like three years that I was on that kickball team.
Speaker 3: I think that that is a deceptively like deep Cut.
Speaker 2: I think I thought so too, But they're also like
Speaker 2: popular enough that people named kickball team after them. Anyway,
Speaker 2: I have seen a few of the other Muppet movies,
Speaker 2: especially Muppet Treasure Island. Although there's a Muppet Treasure Island
Speaker 2: video game like a computer like you put in your
Speaker 2: little CD ROM and there was a video game that
Speaker 2: I played way more than I watched the movie. I
Speaker 2: think I've seen Muppets Take Manhattan. I thought I had
Speaker 2: seen the Muppet Movie nineteen seventy nine, but as I
Speaker 2: was watching it for the episode, you hadn't seen it.
Speaker 2: Nothing was familiar. Yeah, I think this was my first time.
Speaker 3: Wow, oh that's so fun.
Speaker 2: And then I did see The Muppets twenty eleven and
Speaker 2: Muppets most wanted twenty fourteen. But yeah, I never really
Speaker 2: saw any of the shows that existed, aside from you know,
Speaker 2: Sesame Street. But again like specifically like shows revolving around
Speaker 2: these Muppet characters. Haven't watched any of those shows. Yeah,
Speaker 2: only watched a handful of the movies. So yeah, really
Speaker 2: it's Muppet Christmas, Carol.
Speaker 3: Wow, I don't know why I thought you had a
Speaker 3: closer connection with the Muppets. That's like, that's fascinating. Muppet's
Speaker 3: Treasure Island was definitely a moment. I remember, like, my
Speaker 3: cousin Chloe had the VHS and one of the only
Speaker 3: true fights I remember getting into with her was over
Speaker 3: who could marry Jim from Muppet Treasure Island. Uh huh,
Speaker 3: and it could only be one of us, And we
Speaker 3: got into a huge fight about it and I lost
Speaker 3: because she pushed me and started making out with the
Speaker 3: TV screen. When Jim from Mubbet Treasure Island was on,
Speaker 3: I'd been bested and children are amazing.
Speaker 2: I think that was the first movie that I saw
Speaker 2: Tim Curry in and I was like, oh's this He's
Speaker 2: an icon.
Speaker 3: I love him, Tim Curry, I mean iconic icon there.
Speaker 3: I also was really. I mean the Muppet movie, the
Speaker 3: one we're talking about today is such a fun Like
Speaker 3: in the years, I feel like every time I watched
Speaker 3: this movie, I recognize one person I didn't recognize before
Speaker 3: because it's like the Who's Who of the seventies.
Speaker 2: Kind of yeah and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so fun. Richard Pryor is in this movie.
Speaker 3: Elliott Gould. Elliott Gould is in multiple Muppet movies.
Speaker 2: I'm not kidding.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he's also in them. It's take Manhattan.
Speaker 3: I think he was maybe just a fan.
Speaker 2: Oh well, like celebrities like when the show was airing
Speaker 2: in the seventies, like they were lining up to be
Speaker 2: guest stars on The Muppet Show.
Speaker 3: I read, it's really amazing. I mean, I was thinking
Speaker 3: the same thing about I recently rewatched the Pee Wee
Speaker 3: Herman Christmas Special from nineteen eighty eight, and it's like,
Speaker 3: I know that now we think of that as like
Speaker 3: some random show from the late eighties early nineties, but
Speaker 3: kind of the same deal at the time where it
Speaker 3: was like everyone was in this where like Oprah Winfrey
Speaker 3: was on it would be Goldberg, Grace Jones, little Richard,
Speaker 3: like Frankie Avalanche, like share like every single share of
Speaker 3: Mama Mia two fame, her most famous credit besides the
Speaker 3: Pee's Christmas Special, Like, yeah, it was just like every
Speaker 3: single person Josha Gabor whoa. It's just like it's really
Speaker 3: fun revisiting stuff like that, even if they're not like
Speaker 3: celebrities that connect for you, which certainly the Muppet Movie one,
Speaker 3: none of them, I'm like, oh cool, But it is
Speaker 3: cool seeing like something that is very wholesome and kind,
Speaker 3: you know, drawing in so many people I know, right,
Speaker 3: and it's like a cool time capsule, Like I feel
Speaker 3: like I sort of get nineteen seventy nine ish, and
Speaker 3: also just like I feel like the celebrity cameos are
Speaker 3: very well paced in this too, where it's like at
Speaker 3: the very end of the movie, you hit Orson Wells,
Speaker 3: a person you never think will appear in am up
Speaker 3: At movie, and there he is, and there he is. Wild.
Speaker 2: It's giving them a contract to be rich and famous.
Speaker 2: So cool. Let's take a quick break and then we'll
Speaker 2: come back and recap it. Yeah, we'll be right back.
Speaker 3: And we're back.
Speaker 2: Walka waka waka waka. Here we go. This is the movie.
Speaker 3: Here we go again, Here we go again. We walka
Speaker 3: here can we get again? Wow? I Caitlyn, I have
Speaker 3: to say I feel like I have not given due
Speaker 3: attention to the fact that I hope that this opens
Speaker 3: a Muppet era for you, because what I've found is
Speaker 3: that like I saw Muppets Take Manhattan in theaters recently,
Speaker 3: like they still pretty frequently reshow these movies for like
Speaker 3: children's matinees, but still counts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, I want to see more
Speaker 2: of the movies certainly, so I'll make it a point
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 3: I'll come with anytime.
Speaker 2: Excellent. In the meantime, here is the story for the
Speaker 2: Muppet Movie nineteen seventy nine, which is framed as an
Speaker 2: origin story for how the Muppets came together and got
Speaker 2: their big break. So this is that story. We open
Speaker 2: on the lot of a movie studio where there's a
Speaker 2: private screening of the Muppet Movie that all the Muppets
Speaker 2: have gathered to watch. So it's very meta. They're watching
Speaker 2: the movie that they're in.
Speaker 3: Which is the whole point. I mean, that's all of
Speaker 3: the Muppet Show is like they're so good at doing
Speaker 3: behind the scenes like showbiz stuff. It's awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the whole Gang is there. We've got Kermit
Speaker 2: the Frog, We've got Miss Piggy, Fozzy Boo, Gonzo is there,
Speaker 2: the Electric Mayhem, Statler and Waldorf. You know, all the
Speaker 2: Muppets you know and love, except for Rizzo the Rat.
Speaker 2: Where's he? What the fuck?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I wonder if this pre dates Rizzo.
Speaker 3: I wonder, let's say, let's pick up with the Rizzo
Speaker 3: the Rat Wikipedia page, because I did a fair amout
Speaker 3: of research.
Speaker 2: Okay, so wait, I just remember something that's a part
Speaker 2: of my history. One of my favorite Muppets is Muppets
Speaker 2: Wizard of Oz Oh.
Speaker 3: Yes with a shanty, Yes, Yes, that's really good. That
Speaker 3: was like one of the more modern ones that I
Speaker 3: remember watching that because it like aired on TV.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw it on DVD, but I loved it.
Speaker 2: I thought it was hilarious. When I watched it in
Speaker 2: like two thousand and six or.
Speaker 3: Something, it was really cute. And this is okay, I
Speaker 3: know that this is a very common whatever, it's a
Speaker 3: birthday episode. You have to deal with it if you're listening,
Speaker 3: it's a very common criticism. But the fact that Disney
Speaker 3: bought Jim Henson Studios and the Muppets like ip I
Speaker 3: want to say, well over ten years ago. Now it
Speaker 3: was in two thousand and four, got twenty years ago. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and they have yet to really do very much with it.
Speaker 3: I mean not that there hasn't been attempts. They know
Speaker 3: that there have been Disney Plus shows, some of which
Speaker 3: have been good Netflix shows, stuff like that, but in
Speaker 3: terms of a huge return to form, I feel like
Speaker 3: the Jason Siegel movies were kind of it, and that
Speaker 3: the rest have either been like under performed or been underpromoted,
Speaker 3: or there's just I don't know. It makes me sad
Speaker 3: that the Muppets are right there and they're so like
Speaker 3: rife for I don't know, you look at like I
Speaker 3: haven't seen it, but like how well meta comedy plays
Speaker 3: in the general market, where like Deadpool just made a
Speaker 3: billion dollars and he's fucking annoying, and meanwhile Kerment's rotting
Speaker 3: like a whole cast of beloved characters that do meta
Speaker 3: Hollywood commentary like historically better than most just not being
Speaker 3: put to use at all. It just is a damn shame.
Speaker 3: I checked and Rizzo the Rat does not debut till
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty, so that is why this is happening, because
Speaker 3: I do know that at the end, which I can't
Speaker 3: wait to talk about, the very very end of the
Speaker 3: Muppet Movie where it's that huge crowd of Muppets sort
Speaker 3: of doing the reprise of the Rainbow Connection that included
Speaker 3: every single Muppet that had ever been canonically introduced up
Speaker 3: until that time. So it was like two hundred and
Speaker 3: fifty muppets and Rizzo just unfortunately did not quite exist yet. Also,
Speaker 3: did you know that Rizzo is based on a character
Speaker 3: in Midnight Cowboy?
Speaker 2: Was it the Dustin Hoffman character?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, because his name is ratso Rizzo. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: they made a rat named Rizzo, and.
Speaker 2: That's wild.
Speaker 3: We can't get into Rizzo lord today because he wasn't there,
Speaker 3: but it's like, really, let that sink in.
Speaker 2: Wall, especially because Midnight Cowboy, I think, is technically an
Speaker 2: X rated movie, so for them to make a reference, well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it was too gay for nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's amazing. I love that detail me too.
Speaker 3: I'm smiling.
Speaker 2: Anyway, So the Muppet start watching the movie, which opens
Speaker 2: on Kermit in a swamp singing about the Rainbow Connection,
Speaker 2: and he's approached in a boat by a guy named
Speaker 2: Bernie who turns out to be a big Hollywood agent
Speaker 2: who recognizes Kermit's talent and tells him about an audition
Speaker 2: for frogs who are looking to become rich and famous,
Speaker 2: and Kermit is intrigued by m HM on his way home,
Speaker 2: where Kermit is riding a bicycle which is a pretty
Speaker 2: awesome special effect.
Speaker 3: Which had never happened before. Like, it was a huge moment.
Speaker 3: I think it is considered one of the great moments
Speaker 3: in cinema. And I don't even think I'm joking.
Speaker 2: No, you're not, and it's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Anyway, he rides past a billboard advertising a restaurant, Doc
Speaker 2: Hopper's French fried frog Legs, and Kermit is like, what
Speaker 2: the fuck is that? Then he wanders into a bar
Speaker 2: called El sleiezo Awsa where Fozzy Bear is doing prop comedy,
Speaker 2: but the audience hates him, so Kermit jumps up on
Speaker 2: stage to try to help him. They start dancing, which
Speaker 2: is seen by Doc Hopper, the owner of that frog
Speaker 2: leg restaurant, played by Charles Derning along with his minion
Speaker 2: Max It's true, played by someone who is a Muppets person,
Speaker 2: like he's a.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's some inside baseball kind of guy. I honestly
Speaker 3: it with all due respect Austin Pendleton. Oh oh, and
Speaker 3: he also is the voice of Kermit's nephew.
Speaker 2: Oh okay wow, so uh anyway, that's Max. He's a minion.
Speaker 2: He's the the Kevin, if you will of the group.
Speaker 2: They see Kermit dancing and Doc Hopper is like a wooga,
Speaker 2: who's that Frog's that fack? Meanwhile, Kermit invites Fozzy to
Speaker 2: come with him to Hollywood, so they set off in
Speaker 2: Fozzy's uncle's studebaker. But Doc Copper is following them, and
Speaker 2: he approaches Kermit to try to get him to be
Speaker 2: the spokesperson, or rather spokes frog for his frog Leg restaurant.
Speaker 2: But Kermit is like hard pass and he and Fozzy
Speaker 2: continue on their way. You might even say they're moving
Speaker 2: right along.
Speaker 3: And I'm willing to put my feelings about Fozzy Bear
Speaker 3: aside to say that this is an amazing song.
Speaker 2: It's pretty good, yeah it is. After another run in
Speaker 2: with Doc Copper, Kermit and Fozzy stop at a church
Speaker 2: where a band of musical muppets called the Electric Mayhem
Speaker 2: is playing We've Got Doctor Teeth, Janice Animal the others.
Speaker 2: They're there and they're like, what brings you here? So
Speaker 2: Kermit gives them the screenplay for the Muppet movie that
Speaker 2: we are currently watching so that the band can be
Speaker 2: brought up to speed.
Speaker 3: Hilarious joke, I know, And it's so like. I do
Speaker 3: think that a lot of the gags that the Muppets
Speaker 3: do would be annoying to me if it was not
Speaker 3: Muppets doing.
Speaker 2: Them, if it was Deadpool for example.
Speaker 3: Again, yes, I think if you apply, because unfortunately I
Speaker 3: don't like to say this, but they're pulling from the
Speaker 3: same meta playbook. But when Deadpool does it, it's it
Speaker 3: hits a little bit different, even if you like it,
Speaker 3: you know. And I'm over thirty now, you know, I
Speaker 3: can't be like, if you like Deadpool, shut the hell
Speaker 3: like you know, who cares. But the Muppets do it better.
Speaker 2: They do it better. I will say that I did
Speaker 2: see Deadpool and Wolverine, and the jokes that I liked
Speaker 2: the best were the like meta Hollywood commentary jokes about Disney,
Speaker 2: jokes about MCU within the movie. Those are the jokes
Speaker 2: I tended to find the funniest. So maybe I have
Speaker 2: a small brain. I don't know, No, you.
Speaker 3: Don't have a small brain. I think, like the thing
Speaker 3: that really hits for me, I mean, I think it's
Speaker 3: just easier and more fun to watch a puppet do anything. Sure,
Speaker 3: but also I mean my at least my understanding, unless
Speaker 3: I'm not fully understanding the business situation at the time,
Speaker 3: is that like part of what bugs me about Deadpool
Speaker 3: is that, I mean, first of all, he's annoying, right, fine,
Speaker 3: but that that same company that's making the stuff he's
Speaker 3: making fun of is profiting off of making fun of
Speaker 3: the thing that where it's like, yeah, he's in the MCU,
Speaker 3: the same people profit off of him talking about how
Speaker 3: MCU movies suck. And at least the Muppets not that
Speaker 3: they were like outsider, like they were underdogs. They were
Speaker 3: unbelievably popular at this time, but they weren't owned by Disney.
Speaker 3: You know, It's like they were still sort of like
Speaker 3: doing their own thing, which is like maybe a little
Speaker 3: more palatable and maybe just for me, funnier. But yeah,
Speaker 3: without doubt, I love the Electric Mayhem. They're so good,
Speaker 3: They're so fun. I love Janet. Don't you love Janet?
Speaker 2: I don't know there's something Sorry, Janet, I'm dire again
Speaker 2: because they weren't in Muppet Christmas, Carol. I don't know them,
Speaker 2: and I don't really feel one way or the other
Speaker 2: about them. Sorry. I also don't like the design of
Speaker 2: most of those puppets.
Speaker 3: Here's something that I was gonna bring up later, but
Speaker 3: I think that something we talk about very frequently in
Speaker 3: like children's media and animation is that there's a very
Speaker 3: gendered approach to the design of the characters. And I
Speaker 3: think that the Muppets are, like, they straddle kind of
Speaker 3: an interesting line here where I feel like they are
Speaker 3: but also are doing it less than normal where the
Speaker 3: very comparatively few, because you do sort of have a
Speaker 3: like smurf aspect to like, why is this Muppet world
Speaker 3: so dominated by men? Like you know, and the women
Speaker 3: you see are very you know, femme presenting. But I
Speaker 3: appreciate that when there are women in fem muppet characters
Speaker 3: that they can still look fucking weird, Like it doesn't
Speaker 3: just look like a sexy adult woman. True, like we've
Speaker 3: talked about in a million children and animated properties, where
Speaker 3: it's like it's so absurd to think of a woman
Speaker 3: looking not you know, Western beauty standard hot, which I
Speaker 3: know it's like that is definitely arguable in the way
Speaker 3: that Miss Piggy is presented and all this stuff. But like,
Speaker 3: I like that Janice looks comparably weird to the rest
Speaker 3: of the.
Speaker 2: Band fair But yeah, I uh, even though I was
Speaker 2: on a kick team named after them, I'm just like, eh, whatever.
Speaker 3: I love Caitlin Lore, I love it. Where did you
Speaker 3: guys play?
Speaker 2: We played this park just outside of Harvard Square, so
Speaker 2: every Sunday I would ride my bike to the park.
Speaker 2: My team was so good, and one year we went
Speaker 2: to the National Championships in Vegas. What Yeah?
Speaker 3: How did I not know this?
Speaker 2: That was the first time I ever went to Vegas.
Speaker 2: I flew there from Boston.
Speaker 3: I like, oh my god, that's so cool.
Speaker 2: So I could not afford it because I just started
Speaker 2: grad school, but I was like, this is my one
Speaker 2: chance to go to Vegas. I have to. It was
Speaker 2: my bikeball team.
Speaker 3: That's so cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so how did you all do? So it
Speaker 2: was like a tournament of I forget how many teams,
Speaker 2: but we definitely lost and were like eliminated in the
Speaker 2: first round of games. But that was okay because I
Speaker 2: just like hung out by the pool the rest more time.
Speaker 3: To spend in Vegas. That rocks. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fun little fact about me.
Speaker 3: You are the most successful athlete. I know.
Speaker 2: I should be in the Olympics.
Speaker 3: You should, you should. Have you seen that TikTok trend?
Speaker 3: Oh god, me stunning a thousand years old again? But
Speaker 3: have you seen that TikTok trend that boils down to
Speaker 3: Unfortunately I have not been admitted to the Paris Olympics
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four. And it's just like people reposting them
Speaker 3: sucking at high school sports.
Speaker 2: No, I have not seen this.
Speaker 3: It's mostly gymnastics in swimming clips of just like someone
Speaker 3: accidentally belly flopping or like jumping on the balance beam
Speaker 3: and getting their crotch just shattered. But pretty fun. I
Speaker 3: love I love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well.
Speaker 3: Anyways, the Muppet movie, Am I right?
Speaker 2: You are so right? So basically, now the Electric Mayhem
Speaker 2: know what's happening and why Kermit and Fozzy are there,
Speaker 2: and they want to help Kermit avoid Doc Copper, so
Speaker 2: they paint Fozzy's Studa baker so that Doc Copper won't
Speaker 2: recognize the car. Kermit then invites the band to accompany
Speaker 2: them to Hollywood, but they decline, so Kermit and Fozzy
Speaker 2: head out on the road again. This time they run
Speaker 2: into Gonzo and his chicken wife. His chicken wife.
Speaker 3: Okay, that is that's canon. That's okayre dating Cannon.
Speaker 2: I see.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Camilla and Gonzo are end game. And it's interesting
Speaker 3: because we just before this recorded or intro to Chicken Run,
Speaker 3: and I feel like Camilla has the juice, she has
Speaker 3: the riz to be treated like a Chicken run chicken
Speaker 3: and she's and we should be talking about that.
Speaker 2: Well, she comes up in my notes later on.
Speaker 3: So thank god, thank god, me too. We'll circle back,
Speaker 3: yes we will.
Speaker 2: But Gonzo wants to be a movie star. We don't
Speaker 2: know what Camilla wants because no one checks in with her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were not supposed to care.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all about what Gonzo wants, and so he
Speaker 2: and Camilla join them On the trip to Hollywood. The
Speaker 2: group stops at a used car lot to get a
Speaker 2: bigger car. They also stop at a county fair where
Speaker 2: Miss Piggy is competing in and wins a beauty pageant,
Speaker 2: and the moment she sees Kermit, it's love at first sight.
Speaker 2: She imagines her life with Kermit. They meet and Kermit
Speaker 2: invites Miss Piggy to join him for ice cream, but
Speaker 2: she mistakes this for an invitation to go with them
Speaker 2: to Hollywood. But before they can really clear that up,
Speaker 2: Gonzo flies away because he's holding a bunch of balloons.
Speaker 3: Yeah he goes full up mud.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Everyone piles in the car to catch him,
Speaker 2: which they do after a near run in with Doc Copper,
Speaker 2: who is still following them with his minion Max, although
Speaker 2: Max is starting to have misgivings about this whole thing. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: Miss Piggy is lusting after Kermit, and she suggests they
Speaker 2: stop so that she and Kermit can have a romantic dinner.
Speaker 2: Steve Martin is their server.
Speaker 3: Because it's nineteen seventy nine and these sorts of things
Speaker 3: would happen.
Speaker 2: Yes, she steps away to answer a call from her agent,
Speaker 2: but then it seems like she leaves all together and
Speaker 2: stands Kermit up, so he is sad, and then he
Speaker 2: starts talking to the piano player Ralph, who sings a
Speaker 2: song about women you can't live with them, you can't
Speaker 2: live without him, and we're like, okay, feminist icon, Ralph.
Speaker 3: Come on, Ralph, it's not right.
Speaker 2: Then Kermit learns that Miss Piggy is gone because Doc
Speaker 2: Hopper abducted her, and then he kidnaps Kermit too, and.
Speaker 3: We're like, oh, no, is this going to be a
Speaker 3: damsel in situation? And you're like, well, let them cook,
Speaker 3: let them cook. Give it a second.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but Hopper has hired a Nazi doctor played by
Speaker 2: mel Brooks.
Speaker 3: Which I think is a pre existing character from mel Brooks.
Speaker 3: I'm fairly certain he'd played versions of this character before,
Speaker 3: probably and in fact, now that I say it, I
Speaker 3: think he in fact played a version of this character
Speaker 3: on The Muppet Show.
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, previously.
Speaker 3: So I think this if you were seeing this in
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy nine, you were a Muppets fan, this would
Speaker 3: have been a callback to mel Brooks playing said Nazi doctor,
Speaker 3: which is like in his catalog of character as is
Speaker 3: not unheard of.
Speaker 2: Wherever, right, because the producers had already come out.
Speaker 3: That's a good question. I think it might have. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that that was the late sixties, Yeah, nineteen
Speaker 3: sixty seven. Yeah, so this was I mean, this was
Speaker 3: like if you were a Melbrooks fan, and obviously if
Speaker 3: you live under a rock, he's a Jewish comedian, like
Speaker 3: This was very much in his playbook. It's a little
Speaker 3: to story I take in the middle of a Muppet movie.
Speaker 3: But I think even if you were a Muppet fan,
Speaker 3: this would have been a callback to an episode he'd
Speaker 3: already done with them.
Speaker 2: Got it okay? In any case, he has been hired
Speaker 2: by Doc Hopper to brainwash Kermit so that he will
Speaker 2: agree to be in Doc Hopper's commercials. But Miss Piggy
Speaker 2: breaks loose and does her signature hey yeah, chop kick
Speaker 2: move iconic to attack the doctor and all of the minions,
Speaker 2: and she saves Kermit, but then she immediately bails on
Speaker 2: him because her agent calls and offers her a commercial.
Speaker 3: This is why we love Miss Piggy so much, is
Speaker 3: because she's trying to have it all and it's not
Speaker 3: quite possible.
Speaker 2: Exactly, but she's career first. She chooses career.
Speaker 3: It's awesome. When she's like, well, I have to go.
Speaker 3: I got a commercial. Yeah, He's like, yeah, she's awesome.
Speaker 2: H So anyway, Kermit and friends head back on the road,
Speaker 2: stands Miss Piggy plus Ralph, but they come upon Piggy
Speaker 2: hitchhiking to Hollywood, so they pick her up again. Although
Speaker 2: Kermit is a bit sour that she left him, and
Speaker 2: fair enough, yeah, I'm excited to talk about their relationship
Speaker 2: because for me, it's kind of all over the place.
Speaker 2: But anyway, they're in the car, but it breaks down,
Speaker 2: so they have to camp for the night in the
Speaker 2: desert and they realize that they're probably not going to
Speaker 2: make it to this Hollywood audition which is the next day,
Speaker 2: and Kermit thinks it's all his fault and that he
Speaker 2: has let his friends down. Plus Doc Copper has hired
Speaker 2: a specialist to kill Kermit if he doesn't agree to
Speaker 2: be in the commercials. So things are looking pretty low
Speaker 2: for Kermit the Frog, but then the Electric Mayhem shows
Speaker 2: up in their tour bus. They knew where to find
Speaker 2: the group because they read the screenplay to the Muppet
Speaker 2: movie that Kermit had left behind, so they show up
Speaker 2: and they all set off in the bus. They get
Speaker 2: pulled over by a cop who turns out to be
Speaker 2: Doc Copper's minion Max, who wants to warn them about
Speaker 2: this like frog killer. That's after Kermit and Kermit decides
Speaker 2: to have a showdown with Doc Hopper because he's tired
Speaker 2: of running away. He's gonna face his bully.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So they head to this ghost town where Kermit meets
Speaker 2: doctor Bunsen, Honeydow and his assistant Beaker.
Speaker 3: And at that point it's such a relief because you're like,
Speaker 3: is Baker going to be in the movie, and you know,
Speaker 3: two ors of the way in, they're like, not to worry,
Speaker 3: Beaker is on the way.
Speaker 2: M hmm, yep, and he's like me, me, me, me me.
Speaker 3: And you're like, what a legend. And something I love
Speaker 3: about Beaker that I feel like in the last ten
Speaker 3: years we've really lost sight of is that I don't
Speaker 3: need to know anything more about Beaker than I already know.
Speaker 3: I feel like in the modern context, they're like, Okay,
Speaker 3: let's do a very serious limited series about how Beeker
Speaker 3: came to me. Me Me, me me, And it's like,
Speaker 3: I actually don't I don't need to know. I just
Speaker 3: feel like Baker comes through to me so clearly that
Speaker 3: it's not a big deal.
Speaker 2: We need no more information, say no more, I get it.
Speaker 2: In any case, doctor Bunsen and Beaker have developed these
Speaker 2: insta grow pills that make anything temporarily huge, and we're like, hmm,
Speaker 2: wonder how that's gonna pay off?
Speaker 3: This is also echoed in Minion's one when Kevin gets
Speaker 3: so big, Oh my gosh, you're right, whoa. But in
Speaker 3: this case animal gets so big and yeah, it all
Speaker 3: sort of yeah comes back true.
Speaker 2: So what happens is Doc Hopper shows up and there's
Speaker 2: this like cowboy standoff thing between him and Kermit, and
Speaker 2: Doc Hopper is about to kill Kermit, but then Animal,
Speaker 2: who has eaten one of those instagrow pills, is suddenly
Speaker 2: huge and it scares Doc Hopper and his minions away.
Speaker 2: So the Muppets are free to travel the rest of
Speaker 2: the way to Hollywood, and they enter the office of
Speaker 2: a producer named lou Lord played by Orson Wells.
Speaker 3: Awesome, just so awesome.
Speaker 2: It's so funny because Kermit's like, uh, we're here to
Speaker 2: be rich and famous, and then Orson Wells, you know,
Speaker 2: he looks very stony faced and stoic, and he's.
Speaker 3: He's like Orson Wells, like he's like very he is
Speaker 3: old Hollywood.
Speaker 2: It's awesome, true, and you think he's gonna be like,
Speaker 2: who the fuck are you guys? Get out of here,
Speaker 2: but instead he's like my assistant played by Cloris Leachman
Speaker 2: drop the rich and famous contract and we're like, yay,
Speaker 2: they didn't even have to audition. That's how good the
Speaker 2: Muppets are.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Orson Wells, I mean Orson Wells could spot raw Is.
Speaker 3: It's just like, ugh, it's so awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he is pretty much real life lou Grade,
Speaker 2: who is the producer who financed the Muppet Movie in
Speaker 2: real life. So another meta joke here. Then we cut
Speaker 2: to the Muppets starting production on the Muppet Movie. They're
Speaker 2: doing the reprise of the Rainbow Connection, and then we
Speaker 2: flash forward back to the screening room where all of
Speaker 2: the Muppets are watching the finished movie. And that's the
Speaker 2: end of the Muppet Movie. So let's take another quick
Speaker 2: break and we'll come back to discuss.
Speaker 3: And we're back before we jump into the nitty gritty discussion,
Speaker 3: I just like I watched this movie early this year,
Speaker 3: which normally, I mean I've watched it like maybe once
Speaker 3: every five years, but earlier this year happened to get
Speaker 3: into a Muppet hole because I found out that my
Speaker 3: boyfriend had never seen most of like really any Muppet
Speaker 3: movie before. He hadn't seen them like any Muppet movies
Speaker 3: or the Muppet Show, and so I was like Oh,
Speaker 3: this is good. And then at the New Beverly they
Speaker 3: were doing an afternoon matinee of Muppets Take Manhattan, and
Speaker 3: it all just felt very kis meant, and so I
Speaker 3: was like showing him the Great Muppet Ouvra, and we
Speaker 3: watched this movie. And so I've been thinking, They've just
Speaker 3: been on my mind a lot this year, and I
Speaker 3: really really love the end scene to this movie. I
Speaker 3: think it's so like poignant and so special where I
Speaker 3: don't know anythink this happens like pretty frequently with the
Speaker 3: Muppets Gang, where they're always pursuing this dream, they're always underdogs,
Speaker 3: and any other movies it's even more emphasized that they
Speaker 3: are these underdogs who want to make it big, and
Speaker 3: then eventually they do after Kermit has an existential crisis,
Speaker 3: which I also love. But how at the end of
Speaker 3: this movie, they like get everything they ever wanted, they
Speaker 3: like achieve this dream, and then it all collapses and
Speaker 3: it's essentially like a return to their underdogs again. They
Speaker 3: like have gotten everything they ever wanted, and yet for
Speaker 3: some reason their set collapses and they've completely failed and
Speaker 3: like their movie isn't going to happen. And then it's
Speaker 3: still okay, and it's like they're just going to start
Speaker 3: pursuing it again and somehow this like grand failure at
Speaker 3: the end of the movie is all a part of
Speaker 3: what the plan was the whole time. And then they
Speaker 3: turned to the camera and you know, it's like there's
Speaker 3: this very reassuring, pure wonderful thing. I can't think of
Speaker 3: many movies that do that. One of my favorite movies
Speaker 3: does School of Rock, where like these scrappy, this scrappy
Speaker 3: group like gets to the very time, they get further
Speaker 3: than you would ever imagine, and then they still fail
Speaker 3: and it's like they're still reveling in like the joy
Speaker 3: of that failure and how it brought them together. And
Speaker 3: I just think that's really beautiful. It's one of my
Speaker 3: favorite things about movies at all is that that life
Speaker 3: is full of these setbacks, and that is also part
Speaker 3: of what makes life very interesting. So I love that
Speaker 3: this movie ends on a like a huge win with
Speaker 3: the like Orson Wells thing and they get to make
Speaker 3: their movie, but then you know, they kind of don't,
Speaker 3: but then they sort of do.
Speaker 2: But then they do because they're watching the movie that
Speaker 2: they made in the screening.
Speaker 3: Room exactly exactly. I really love the sequence where the
Speaker 3: set falls and they don't panic because after the set
Speaker 3: falls there's something beautiful and the rainbow comes in and
Speaker 3: it's all corny, but I just like it. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Both times I've seen it this year, it made me
Speaker 3: very emotional because that's so cool and it feels very
Speaker 3: connected to just general Jim Henson lore. I'm really interested
Speaker 3: in Jim Henson lore and like how many false starts
Speaker 3: and how challenging it was for him to get even
Speaker 3: that far in making Muppet stuff, where I think most
Speaker 3: people thought he would have talked out at creating Sesame
Speaker 3: Street and that there was no adult market for what
Speaker 3: he was doing, and just the sort of like stops
Speaker 3: and starts and really trying to make it happen, and
Speaker 3: this movie being such an amazing example of like, no,
Speaker 3: it really really worked, but it was still punctuated by
Speaker 3: all these failures. I just love it. I find it
Speaker 3: very inspiring and sweet and just like a cool universal thing.
Speaker 3: I love them Uppets.
Speaker 2: Did I tell you so? There was this show that
Speaker 2: would happen in La called Comedian Cinema Club that we
Speaker 2: would occasionally participate in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so basically
Speaker 2: it was comedians loosely recreating the plots of specific movies,
Speaker 2: but it was like a lot of improv and you
Speaker 2: were just sort of doing it from memory.
Speaker 3: It was so fun.
Speaker 2: It was super fun. And one time when I was
Speaker 2: doing it, we were doing the movie Labyrinth. Oh I
Speaker 2: remember that, and someone from the Jim Henson Studio in
Speaker 2: La came to watch that show and then they invited
Speaker 2: the whole cast of comedians who performed on the show
Speaker 2: to the Jim Henson Studio. So we all went and
Speaker 2: like all like private tour. Yeah, it was super cool.
Speaker 2: It's a small, tiny little studio, but it's in all
Speaker 2: these like cool little bungalows.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I've passed it a million times. And I
Speaker 3: think it's closing too, which is really sad.
Speaker 2: Ah, that would be so sad. Yeah, but yeah, that
Speaker 2: you like go in different rooms. This is a lot
Speaker 2: of like you know, production offices, but there's a lot
Speaker 2: of like familiar models of the Muppets and other you know,
Speaker 2: Sesame Street characters and things like that. They're like, wow,
Speaker 2: look at that little guy. Anyway, it was fun.
Speaker 3: It really is incredible how much of an impact and
Speaker 3: like Jim Henson. I something I would really I'll send
Speaker 3: the links to so we can include it in the
Speaker 3: notes to this episode. Is there is a real I mean,
Speaker 3: there's been a lot written about Jim Henson's life, and
Speaker 3: I don't mean to single any single thing out, but
Speaker 3: the thing that was easiest for me to consume and
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed was a few years back, probably a
Speaker 3: while ago, now defunct Land, one of my favorite YouTube channels,
Speaker 3: did an incredible multi part analysis and documentary on Jim
Speaker 3: Henson's life and legacy. And he was an extremely flawed person,
Speaker 3: as anyone is, but just the fact that in like
Speaker 3: such a short amount of time he was able to
Speaker 3: make such an incredible impact is just really special and
Speaker 3: really cool. And I don't know, I know, it's like
Speaker 3: not part of what this show is to be like
Speaker 3: this man, but like it's really it's really fun and
Speaker 3: I feel like that as we'll get into Also, for me,
Speaker 3: very much applies to Frank Oz, who is thankfully still
Speaker 3: with us and has been a fixture in so much
Speaker 3: iconic work in the last you know, fifty sixty years,
Speaker 3: especially because he's miss Piggy and like all of the
Speaker 3: stuff that comes with that. So I don't know, do
Speaker 3: we want to start with Miss Piggy.
Speaker 2: Let's start with Miss Piggy.
Speaker 3: Now, listen, here's the thing. Is Miss Piggy an emotionally
Speaker 3: abusive partner M I would say maybe, yes, yes, but
Speaker 3: I love her.
Speaker 2: I would say, she's also physically abusive at times, and
Speaker 2: she's not good at respecting boundaries.
Speaker 3: I agree, I agree. I think on paper it doesn't
Speaker 3: look good for her. But I feel like Miss Piggy
Speaker 3: is a character like that is so rooted in camp
Speaker 3: and satire and catharsis. It is like this is being
Speaker 3: consumed by children, and I certainly hope that young fems
Speaker 3: were not karate chopping their male counterparts after this. But
Speaker 3: I also don't think that a lot of people are
Speaker 3: mapping their relationship goals on Kermit and Miss Piggy. I
Speaker 3: don't know. I could be wrong about that, but because
Speaker 3: the Muppets have historically been consumed by children and adults,
Speaker 3: it feels to me like Miss Piggy is a character
Speaker 3: that is like rooted in subversion and in camp and
Speaker 3: doing something you wouldn't expect, and in some ways that
Speaker 3: beat to beat it does not always hold up. But
Speaker 3: I really appreciate the spirit of her character where she's
Speaker 3: rooted in this, you know, like can't be There's a
Speaker 3: great video essay that I know we've both watched by
Speaker 3: be Kind Rewind, who is just like so wonderful about
Speaker 3: the history of who Miss Piggy is and how rooted
Speaker 3: she is in all of these like Hollywood divas of
Speaker 3: the twentieth century, especially old Hollywood divas, and this very
Speaker 3: glamorous woman trying to have it all, who's very over
Speaker 3: the top and all of this stuff, and like there's
Speaker 3: so many references to past movie and movies and history
Speaker 3: to who she is at her core. What I really
Speaker 3: love about Mss Piggy is that she is a character
Speaker 3: who very much wants a career and wants success and
Speaker 3: wants a romantic relationship. And I feel like that is like,
Speaker 3: at its course, something we do not get very much of.
Speaker 3: We're very often presented with someone who is very motivated
Speaker 3: towards one or the other, and it's a very common
Speaker 3: experience to want both and even as over the top.
Speaker 3: And yes, do I think that, You know, It's like
Speaker 3: if I'm writing a dissertation on do I think Kermit
Speaker 3: and Miss Piggy have a healthy relationship, no, But I
Speaker 3: think that the spirit of what she's doing of like
Speaker 3: trying to have a relationship where she can love and
Speaker 3: feel loved and pursue a dream aggressively. It's like, it's cool,
Speaker 3: it's rare, and I feel like in most situations, especially
Speaker 3: from the group of women in Stars that she's pulling from,
Speaker 3: these people don't often get to have it all. They
Speaker 3: get one or the other and it's their tragic downfall
Speaker 3: either way. And Miss Piggy, in the way that this
Speaker 3: universe resets, resets and resets, she does have it all
Speaker 3: for the most part, and she's often striving towards one
Speaker 3: thing or the other, but you know that there is
Speaker 3: a certain amount of security and like she will achieve
Speaker 3: her dream, she will have the relationship that she wants.
Speaker 3: And I think like it's weirdly cathartic and nice, especially
Speaker 3: because she is so intensely herself where you know, and
Speaker 3: in order to be loved, she doesn't have to compromise
Speaker 3: who she is, and I really appreciate that about her.
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, bet to Beat it's imperfect, extremely but that's.
Speaker 2: Also cool because so many characters who are women are
Speaker 2: presented in this pretty like one dimensional way, is is
Speaker 2: they don't have any flaws because like the men writing
Speaker 2: these characters sure haven't given enough thought to the women
Speaker 2: they're writing that they don't seem like fully formed people
Speaker 2: with strengths and flaws. But both in her pursuit of
Speaker 2: like success in show business and her relationship with Kermit,
Speaker 2: like she's fucking up a lot of the time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's also refreshing to see a woman not be
Speaker 2: perfect again and again.
Speaker 3: And still be loved. M However, I do think, especially
Speaker 3: because this is like fairly early into Miss Piggy's tenure,
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, And I know that the character has
Speaker 3: been revised to sort of meet the expectations of the
Speaker 3: time repeatedly up until about almost ten years ago in
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, when this shitty ABC mockumentary show was being
Speaker 3: released in twenty fifteen, and Miss Piggy wrote an op
Speaker 3: ed for Time Magazine called Miss Piggy, Why I Am
Speaker 3: a feminist pig? And this character has been revised and
Speaker 3: updated so many times to sort of meet whatever cultural
Speaker 3: moment is required in a way that feels for the
Speaker 3: most per genuine And I think that in seventy nine.
Speaker 3: She is very subversive, but also like, yeah, at every
Speaker 3: phase of Kermit and Piggy's relationship, Kermit does feel sort
Speaker 3: of bullied into their relationship. Yes, every time I see
Speaker 3: a troubling moment with Kermit and Piggy, I'm sort of
Speaker 3: like they should go to couples counseling. I'm sure they
Speaker 3: have canonically at least once, because it does seem like
Speaker 3: he loves.
Speaker 2: Her sometimes and other times he's like, get away from
Speaker 2: me or so That's why I think their relationship is
Speaker 2: all over the place, at least in the confines of
Speaker 2: this movie. Right, We don't meet Miss Piggy until about
Speaker 2: forty minutes into the movie. Up until then, I mean,
Speaker 2: we see Janice briefly and as a problem, but other
Speaker 2: than that, there are no other muppets of a marginalized
Speaker 2: gender until Miss Piggy is introduced again about forty minutes
Speaker 2: into the movie. She wins the beauty pageant. She sees
Speaker 2: Kermit and is immediately smitten. She imagines her whole life
Speaker 2: with him. Kermitt has no such dream sequenced as far
Speaker 2: as any like longing to be with Piggy forever. He
Speaker 2: notices her, but it's not like he is. He doesn't
Speaker 2: reciprocate this like crush right away. And we have also
Speaker 2: seen Kermit invite every other muppet that he has encountered
Speaker 2: on this trip to Hollywood, including muppets that he barely
Speaker 2: interacts with, such as Sweetums, who is the like person
Speaker 2: sized muppet at the car dealership which I left out
Speaker 2: of the recap. But they like barely even talk to.
Speaker 3: Him, but still a relevant character, yes, and.
Speaker 2: Also so sad when they're like, do you want to come?
Speaker 2: And then he runs away to like grab his suitcase,
Speaker 2: but then they thought he was like rejecting them, so
Speaker 2: they drove away, and then he comes back to be
Speaker 2: like wait.
Speaker 3: Not too dissimilar from what happens with Miss Piggy, where
Speaker 3: like in this case, miss Piggy misunderstands. I mean they
Speaker 3: both misunderstand.
Speaker 2: Right, It's just that Sweetems needs to learn to use
Speaker 2: his words a little bit better. But what struck me
Speaker 2: about the Miss Piggy situation is that, like, why wouldn't Kermit,
Speaker 2: who knows that Miss Piggy has aspirations of becoming a
Speaker 2: performer and a star and all of this, why wouldn't
Speaker 2: he invite her along and instead she invites herself along.
Speaker 2: And is there a gendered thing to that or is
Speaker 2: it just that miss Piggy has made Kermit uncomfortable, which
Speaker 2: we also saw her do.
Speaker 3: That was sort of my take on it, whereas like
Speaker 3: I think she did make him uncomfortable. I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's so hard because it's like, at this point, what
Speaker 3: are we doing. We're pathologizing the muppets.
Speaker 2: Well that's our job.
Speaker 3: I guess so, and we have to live with that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know. I sort of was going
Speaker 3: back and forth on that where maybe that is like
Speaker 3: part of why their relationship is so interesting, where it
Speaker 3: is like a little bit confusing of like does he
Speaker 3: not want her to come? Is he kind of like
Speaker 3: freaked out by having a romantic feeling? Like which is it?
Speaker 3: And I honestly, I mean, on this viewing, I wasn't
Speaker 3: totally sure. Where it doesn't seem like he's disinterested or
Speaker 3: like does not like her. It seems like they get
Speaker 3: along well. But I don't know. I mean, there's especially
Speaker 3: in a like an ambiguous romantic interaction where I feel
Speaker 3: like there's the feeling of like, well, they wouldn't want
Speaker 3: to come with me? Like they're so cool, they wouldn't,
Speaker 3: you know, And it feels like there's an element of that.
Speaker 3: But then I think you can also look at it
Speaker 3: on the flip side of like she is kind of
Speaker 3: pressuring him into taking her along.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think that there's a lot of different ways to
Speaker 3: interpret that interaction. And that's part of why her relationship
Speaker 3: is so like not healthy but definitely compelling.
Speaker 2: Right well, because after that she has like invited herself along.
Speaker 2: She gets in the car and then is like, let's
Speaker 2: have a romantic dinner, and she keeps being like flaky
Speaker 2: and she leaves, and sometimes that's because she's been abducted
Speaker 2: by Doc Hopper, but she'll often, you know, as we've said,
Speaker 2: she won't hesitate to take a call from her agent,
Speaker 2: and she always seems to be putting if there's a
Speaker 2: career opportunity that comes up, she'll put that first over Kermit.
Speaker 2: Right So, up until that point, it seems like Kermit
Speaker 2: is just sort of going along with this. He doesn't
Speaker 2: seem as enthusiastic about spending time with Miss Piggy as
Speaker 2: she feels about spending time with him. But then when
Speaker 2: she leaves and he thinks that she has stood him up.
Speaker 2: He's heartbroken. And then there's that scene with Ralph where
Speaker 2: he's like, oh, man, stay away from women, that's my motto, right,
Speaker 2: and then he sings the song about how you can't
Speaker 2: live with him, you can't live without him, and we're.
Speaker 3: Like right, Rolf, and you're like, Ralph, you are being counterproductive.
Speaker 3: And again, I think that this is part of why
Speaker 3: Kermit and Piggy are so interesting and why I can
Speaker 3: understand the argument for kids are seeing this movie they
Speaker 3: shouldn't witness this like kind of unhealthy dynamic. But I
Speaker 3: also think that when you're a kid, I don't know,
Speaker 3: this just does feel different to me in tone than
Speaker 3: like when you're a kid and you see a princess movie.
Speaker 3: It just feels more authoritative in the way that the
Speaker 3: values of the movie are presented than a Muppet movie.
Speaker 3: I could be wrong about that. I don't know. I
Speaker 3: enjoy watching these movies more than I enjoy watching a
Speaker 3: Princess movie, because those feel very firmly for children and
Speaker 3: very like here is the value, here is the sin,
Speaker 3: here is the choice, and like in this it's sort
Speaker 3: of presented more like, eh, well, you know you know,
Speaker 3: like it's so silly in a way that I think, weirdly,
Speaker 3: a lot of children's movies aren't silly, where I think
Speaker 3: that both of them are kind of making unhealthy, ego
Speaker 3: driven choices throughout this relationship. And so it's hard, at
Speaker 3: least in my view, it's like kind of hard to
Speaker 3: take a side, yeah, because I do think that Miss
Speaker 3: Piggy can absolutely be a bully, and I also think
Speaker 3: that Kermit can kind of be like, I don't know,
Speaker 3: I mean, I Miss Piggy is certainly the more aggressive
Speaker 3: party in the relationship. But you also see moment where
Speaker 3: Kermit has not expressed a lot of interest in her
Speaker 3: and she walks away and then he's like, well, wait
Speaker 3: to sick you, why don't you want to be my girlfriend?
Speaker 3: And you're like, well, you kind of rejected her.
Speaker 2: You know, that's the thing with Kermit. He needs to
Speaker 2: express He needs to learn how to understand and express
Speaker 2: his feelings more effectively, because he's.
Speaker 3: Either like get him.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm gonna get Kermit's ass right now, ready,
Speaker 2: uh huh No, he just like if he is interested
Speaker 2: or if he is not interested, he needs to communicate
Speaker 2: those things more clearly. But he doesn't. He doesn't seem
Speaker 2: to have any you know what. Kermit needs to grow
Speaker 2: a spine, and he needs to express his feelings more
Speaker 2: clearly and communicate better.
Speaker 3: Frogs even have spines, they do.
Speaker 2: They're vertebrae, yes they do. Okay, sorry, yeah, they're they're amphibians,
Speaker 2: which are yeah, okay, a little science. I'm not I'm
Speaker 2: doctor Bunsen, honeydew, I'm I'm just missus Baker over here
Speaker 2: being like really really yeah, so no, no, amphibians have vertebrae,
Speaker 2: so they have spines, okay, but Kerman doesn't, and he
Speaker 2: needs to freaking grow one and learn how to communicate
Speaker 2: more effectively because when he's aloof, I don't know what
Speaker 2: that means for how he's feeling, when he's uncomfortable, he's
Speaker 2: you know, he doesn't say that. I don't know how
Speaker 2: what he's feeling, and neither does Miss Piggy.
Speaker 3: So and again I think that that is like what
Speaker 3: is compelling about their relationship, as these are two very
Speaker 3: emotionally immature characters who are almost the perfect storm of
Speaker 3: emotional immaturity because the ways in which they're emotionally immature,
Speaker 3: they can't understand the other where like Miss Piggy is
Speaker 3: so straightforward, and when she doesn't receive straightforward feedback in return,
Speaker 3: she's either hurt or like, Okay, I'm going to move on,
Speaker 3: and Kermit is so it seems like kind of like
Speaker 3: compartmentalized and like not sure how to express emotion and
Speaker 3: affection for whatever canonical reason. But I also feel like
Speaker 3: it's playing on at least in the opinion of or
Speaker 3: in the view of the writers who are majority men.
Speaker 3: Which is important to keep in mind is that this is,
Speaker 3: you know, men of I'm assuming varying emotional maturity. They're
Speaker 3: interpreting how men interpret emotions versus women, and it is
Speaker 3: kind of this binary view. But it does seem like
Speaker 3: these are two characters who, at least in my opinion,
Speaker 3: and it seems like in the writer's opinions, do genuinely
Speaker 3: care for each other and do love each other. But
Speaker 3: the reason that they are like in this it's different
Speaker 3: than Barbie and Ken in that way because like Barbie
Speaker 3: and Ken, at least outside of the Gretigeric lore, are
Speaker 3: kind of perfect, and so it's like almost a more
Speaker 3: ambiguous loop. But with Kermit and Piggy, you almost understand
Speaker 3: why there's no conclusion because they don't necessarily grow significantly
Speaker 3: as individuals, where Miss Piggy is always you know, it's
Speaker 3: like they just never go to therapy, and so they're
Speaker 3: in this infinity loop of like we love each other,
Speaker 3: but we cannot adequately express it to the other, so
Speaker 3: it never feels completely secure. Mm hmmm, and that sucks.
Speaker 2: It does. I also think it's worth noting again because
Speaker 2: we've brought this up, but the person who brings Miss
Speaker 2: Piggy to life is a man. It's frank Oz.
Speaker 3: It's like Shakespearean basically how this all plays out right.
Speaker 2: So it's frank Oz who both voices Miss Piggy and
Speaker 2: is the like puppeteer for her. And he was also
Speaker 2: the person who had a big hand in kind of
Speaker 2: developing hand, a literal hand.
Speaker 3: It's his hand, Kalin.
Speaker 2: He shoves his hand up, okay, inside her and brings
Speaker 2: her to life relatable.
Speaker 3: Much No, uh, I mean such things have happened.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, anyway, he was the person to largely develop
Speaker 2: her as a charter. And that video essay that you
Speaker 2: mentioned entitled Miss Piggy Camp and the Death of the
Speaker 2: Movie Star, the you know, be kind rewind video Essay
Speaker 2: dives into this a lot as far as frank Oz
Speaker 2: brings this character to life, but it's like a man
Speaker 2: interpreting a woman's behavior, and so there are examples of
Speaker 2: like Miss Piggy being quote unquote hysterical, which is like, okay,
Speaker 2: is that a man's interpretation of how a woman behaves.
Speaker 2: But there's also this element of like she is mimicking
Speaker 2: these like old Hollywood stars who have a tendency to
Speaker 2: like be very melodramatic in their performances in movies, and
Speaker 2: like that's who Miss Piggy's emulating.
Speaker 3: I feel like you could make the argument that Miss Piggy,
Speaker 3: even though it seems like frank Oz initially is like uncomfortable,
Speaker 3: really takes this on, is a drag character, like fair,
Speaker 3: because she pulls so heavily from this era of exaggerated
Speaker 3: femininity in esthetics and behavior. Miss Piggy to me seems
Speaker 3: like frank Oz not fully understanding that he's performing a
Speaker 3: drag character.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting, But yeah, I agree because there's this
Speaker 2: element of her character which again, like frank Oz helped
Speaker 2: to develop, where you know, she acts like this diva,
Speaker 2: she's mimicking these old Hollywood stars. She's putting on an
Speaker 2: air of like sophistication in class that she doesn't actually
Speaker 2: have because like, deep down, Miss Piggy is a farm girl.
Speaker 2: She's a farm pig. He keeps calling her a truck
Speaker 2: driver who will like beat your ass if you piss
Speaker 2: her off.
Speaker 3: Right, which is just like another way of saying, like
Speaker 3: a woman who comes from like humble beginnings, who has
Speaker 3: been launched to this level of glamor and fame that
Speaker 3: requires a level of docility and femininity that would be
Speaker 3: impossible with the amount of effort and determination it would
Speaker 3: take to get there in the first place, which is
Speaker 3: the situation with So I mean, that's what I love
Speaker 3: about be kind Rewind's video essay is that it's so
Speaker 3: clearly demonstrated of like where there Miss Piggy's character is
Speaker 3: pulling from and how it feels like in conversation with
Speaker 3: Pearl Yeah or recent movie which is also referenced in
Speaker 3: that video essay, But just about how anyone who is
Speaker 3: presented to you in the way Miss Piggy is on
Speaker 3: such a large platform, you know, historically would have had
Speaker 3: to either come from privilege and money or really had
Speaker 3: to work their ass off to get to the top,
Speaker 3: and often when you see women and fems get to
Speaker 3: the top, the expectation is to be like, oh, I
Speaker 3: don't know, and like Miss Piggy does that in a
Speaker 3: way that is obviously put on, and I love that.
Speaker 3: I don't know it just I wonder. I mean, Frank
Speaker 3: Oz is in his eighties, so who fucking knows, But yeah,
Speaker 3: Miss Piggy does feel like one of our iconic drag
Speaker 3: characters to.
Speaker 2: Be mm hmm, definitely. I want to talk about the scene.
Speaker 2: We touched on it a little bit, but just to
Speaker 2: kind of reiterate the scene where Kermit and Miss Piggy
Speaker 2: are both being held captive and she's saying to Kermit like, oh,
Speaker 2: I know you have a great plan to rescue us,
Speaker 2: and it seems like it's going to be up to
Speaker 2: Kermit to save Miss Piggy, you know, that classic trope
Speaker 2: of a woman needs to be saved by a man.
Speaker 2: She's expecting that this will happen, but Kermit does nothing
Speaker 2: to save them. He gets put in an even more
Speaker 2: compromise situation where he's about to be brainwashed and it's
Speaker 2: Miss Piggy is the one who has to break free.
Speaker 2: From her restraints. She fights off all the bad guys.
Speaker 2: There's like a half a dozen guys that she beats
Speaker 2: the shit out of, and then she saves Kermit from
Speaker 2: being brainwashed and then puts the big bad of this scene,
Speaker 2: which is the mel Brooks Nazi doctor character, puts him
Speaker 2: in the brainwashing machine and then he turns into a
Speaker 2: frog or something, and then she bails onto him, and
Speaker 2: then she's like, by Kermit, I booked a commercial. See
Speaker 2: you later.
Speaker 3: It's so hard to not be on her side here
Speaker 3: because it's like she subverts everything that you expect the
Speaker 3: damsel in distress, because that is how she's set up
Speaker 3: as a damsel in distress, I feel like, very knowingly
Speaker 3: by the writers. And then she does everything that a
Speaker 3: damsel in distress doesn't do, which is liberate herself and
Speaker 3: save the man, and saves the man who traditionally would
Speaker 3: save her, and then bails on him romantically as well.
Speaker 3: Like it's just so hard to like, it's very hard
Speaker 3: for me to apply the like Miss Piggy is an
Speaker 3: unhealthy romantic character, which is like basically true, but because
Speaker 3: this is so meta, like the point of this scene
Speaker 3: is that Miss Piggy is doing everything a damsel in
Speaker 3: distress doesn't do. She frees her and the man via
Speaker 3: kung fu violence and then gets a professional opportunity and
Speaker 3: bails on him. And while Kermit is well within his
Speaker 3: rights to be hurt by that, you know, even though
Speaker 3: you're right, he doesn't know how to emotionally communicate because
Speaker 3: they're just both so emotionally fucking stunted. But I just
Speaker 3: I love that scene. Miss Piggy does everything wrong and
Speaker 3: it makes you love her more, and it like, I
Speaker 3: feel like by her being such a compelling and fun
Speaker 3: character to watch and watching her do everything quote unquote
Speaker 3: wrong or just like not what you expect someone in
Speaker 3: that situation to do, it almost makes it easier, you know,
Speaker 3: like when I was a kid watching this to call
Speaker 3: into question like, well, why does the opposite usually happen?
Speaker 3: If I love it so much when it doesn't happen,
Speaker 3: Like it's a cool sort of entry point to analyze
Speaker 3: some of the common movie tropes that you've seen a
Speaker 3: million times in a lot of kids movies up until
Speaker 3: that point, Like Miss Piggy, she is cooking, she's doing
Speaker 3: something true.
Speaker 2: You know who isn't doing something? Camilla Lawzy oh, oh,
Speaker 2: well that too, Camilla.
Speaker 3: Yes, Camilla should be doing MOA.
Speaker 2: Yes. Do you have anything else to say about Miss
Speaker 2: Piggy before we move on?
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that another thing that has come
Speaker 3: up with Miss Piggy over the years, not necessarily within
Speaker 3: the scope of this movie, is just like her I
Speaker 3: think rightfully earned place in feminist canon, and just like
Speaker 3: the idea of an imperfect woman be it this icon
Speaker 3: and a very ambitious woman being an icon. And also
Speaker 3: she's kind of Delulu, and like you know, I think
Speaker 3: every muppets raw talent besides Kermit, can kind of be
Speaker 3: called into question. And I kind of love that too,
Speaker 3: where like, yeah, that's who succeeds in Hollywood is like
Speaker 3: one person who's actually good every once in a while,
Speaker 3: and then like forty people who basically suck, especially Fozzy Bear.
Speaker 2: I would even question Kermit's talent there, I said it.
Speaker 3: I just feel like Rainbow Connection, he did that off
Speaker 3: the top of the dome.
Speaker 2: Come on, But was his voice good?
Speaker 3: Wow? Jim Henson's spinning in his grave.
Speaker 2: Well, sorry, these are just my thoughts.
Speaker 3: And you said it, you said what you said. I
Speaker 3: think the only thing I bring up with Miss Piggy canonically,
Speaker 3: is the way that her and Kermit's physical size is
Speaker 3: used as comedy is some thing that I think has
Speaker 3: been discussed quite a lot. I don't really feel qualified too,
Speaker 3: because I just haven't done enough research on it to
Speaker 3: intelligently comment on. But I know that in the show
Speaker 3: leading up to this movie, not as much actually in
Speaker 3: this movie. But I think that their difference, like Miss
Speaker 3: Piggy is just physically bigger than Kermit because she is
Speaker 3: a pig and he is a frog, right, It's just true,
Speaker 3: But that at different points in their relationship that the
Speaker 3: difference in their size has been called attention to in
Speaker 3: a way that has not always been sensitive. But I
Speaker 3: think that there's also been a lot of thoughtful reclaimings
Speaker 3: of their dynamic. Just all that to say, like we're
Speaker 3: just talking about Miss Piggy and Kurbit in the scope
Speaker 3: of this movie, there's a lot of conversation that has
Speaker 3: gone on about their relationship. Outside of that, I suppose
Speaker 3: to acknowledge that I don't feel able to intelligently comment
Speaker 3: on it at this time. Sure, and now we've entered
Speaker 3: the Camilla zone. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about
Speaker 3: Camilla because she is, like, I feel like a very underrated,
Speaker 3: underdisgusted Muppet character because she's been around since nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, and this is honestly the first time I've
Speaker 2: noticed her in any Muppet thing.
Speaker 3: In't it a shame?
Speaker 2: It's a shame. So she's Gonzo's his wife. She is
Speaker 2: his chicken wife or girlfriend or partner of some kind.
Speaker 3: They're committed. It seems like they're committed. Yeah, and they
Speaker 3: seems like they're monogamous.
Speaker 2: Too, Yeah, I would guess so. Yeah, But wouldn't it
Speaker 2: be funny if they had an open marriage?
Speaker 3: Good for Camilla?
Speaker 2: And we're practicing ethical non monogamy anyway. So she does
Speaker 2: not speak English. She clucked, And it seems as though
Speaker 2: only Gonzo understands her, or at least he's the only
Speaker 2: one to talk to her, which means that it's really
Speaker 2: hard for us to know anything about her as a character.
Speaker 2: We don't see her interacting with anyone else. Everyone else
Speaker 2: ignores her, No one acknowledges her as a character, and
Speaker 2: no one seems to care about her or what she wants,
Speaker 2: and therefore the audience has a hard time knowing and
Speaker 2: caring about her and I think that's a damn shame
Speaker 2: because she's one of the few characters who's not like
Speaker 2: male coded like all the other Muppets are.
Speaker 3: I agree with you. I think that Camilla is extremely
Speaker 3: disrespected and if there is any five years ago, over
Speaker 3: the top, unnecessary origin mini series about a Muppet's character,
Speaker 3: I would like to see Camilla because I just can't
Speaker 3: unlike Miss Piggy, who I could watch for a million years,
Speaker 3: but I don't think that her character has been been
Speaker 3: like underthought or under disgusted as the years have gone on. Camilla,
Speaker 3: I just don't think has been thought about it once
Speaker 3: because Yeah, as I was watching this, I was like, well,
Speaker 3: has Camilla ever been given more consideration than this movie?
Speaker 3: And the answer appears to be a hard no. Where.
Speaker 3: Camilla was introduced in the late seventies on The Muppet Show,
Speaker 3: always in conversation with Gonzo, which is not the case
Speaker 3: for Miss Piggy. Miss Picky was originally a utility player
Speaker 3: on the Muppet Show who was later brought into Kurbit's orbit,
Speaker 3: but she's originally sort of her own thing. But she
Speaker 3: was introduced in episode three h five of the Muppet Show,
Speaker 3: most prominently in episode three oh nine, and I'm pulling
Speaker 3: from the Muppet wiki.
Speaker 2: Here, okay, scholarly journal.
Speaker 3: Muppet wiki when Gonzo attempted to audition her and another
Speaker 3: chicken named Nelly for Liberachi's So, just to remind you
Speaker 3: what yar we're in here, So Camilla was sort of
Speaker 3: the standout chicken from a group of chickens, much like
Speaker 3: Miss Piggy was a standout from a group of pigs.
Speaker 3: And again it's like, is this how women become prominent
Speaker 3: by standing out from a pack of other women? It's
Speaker 3: just interesting.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: But the whole joke with Camilla for the last almost
Speaker 3: now fifty years is that Gonzo will frequently attempt to
Speaker 3: step out on Camilla because he cannot tell the difference
Speaker 3: between Camilla and other chickens, which is just a broadway
Speaker 3: of saying all women are the same to our guy, Gonzo.
Speaker 2: So he's polyamorous by accident smooching on all these others.
Speaker 3: I think that's an interesting way of saying cheating. I
Speaker 3: think that's a way of saying he's cheating on her.
Speaker 3: I would love I dare a man to say, actually,
Speaker 3: it turns out I'm polyamorous accident. I'm like, uh, bitch,
Speaker 3: you're cheating, Like he is a cheater, yeah, because he
Speaker 3: tells Camilla, you're my one and only and then says, oops,
Speaker 3: turns out all women are the same to me, so
Speaker 3: he is. Actually I would chafe with that. I would
Speaker 3: say that he is a cheater who is lying about it.
Speaker 3: And that's the polyamorous community I love and respect and
Speaker 3: the whole point of the poly I mean, unless I'm
Speaker 3: it's that you're not doing that.
Speaker 2: It's that you're open and honest with your intentions.
Speaker 3: Yes, Gonzo, I would say that honesty is not there.
Speaker 3: The thing is, I can separate the art from the
Speaker 3: artist with Gonzo because I love Gonzo and I think
Speaker 3: he's got riz. I think he's got incredible outfits. I
Speaker 3: think he gave a career defining performance in Muppet Christmas Carol. Like, yes,
Speaker 3: I love Gonzo, but interpersonally, I just think he just
Speaker 3: mistreats Camilla and then he's just like, oh sorry, I
Speaker 3: can't tell the difference between you and other chickens. This
Speaker 3: is a an ongoing joke for decades with Gonzo and Camilla,
Speaker 3: including in again pulling from the Muppet Wiki on Muppet Babies,
Speaker 3: Camilla is a rag doll that sometimes comes to life
Speaker 3: in baby Gonzo's imagination. So like, she's just I don't
Speaker 3: know the level of thoughtlessness, poor Camilla. I believe that
Speaker 3: Camilla has thoughts, feelings, aspirations that we are just due
Speaker 3: to the language barrier not made privy to and we're
Speaker 3: just she's just doomed to be Gonzo's disrespected wife.
Speaker 2: I agree. And then there's Janice, who is one of
Speaker 2: the members of Electric Mayhem. We also touched briefly on her.
Speaker 2: She barely talks in the scenes that feature the band,
Speaker 2: and it's mostly Doctor Teeth animal yapping on. She isn't
Speaker 2: given a whole lot of characterization.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's not super prominent, which sucks because I think
Speaker 3: that she is like a very sweet and fun character.
Speaker 3: I like her. I wish that there was more. But yeah,
Speaker 3: like she is, if anything, number three in the band
Speaker 3: where it's like Doctor Teeth, but I think she probably
Speaker 3: still speaks the least.
Speaker 2: I would say.
Speaker 3: So, Yeah, it's a bummer. It's a bummer because I
Speaker 3: like her. I think she's fun. I guess that she
Speaker 3: was originally again pulling from scholarly journal Muppets Wiki, she
Speaker 3: was originally designed as a part of a Mick Jagger episode. Okay,
Speaker 3: so I guess that was like why the band was
Speaker 3: created to like play with him, And I don't know.
Speaker 3: I feel like there's a lot of music and specifically
Speaker 3: rock history in the fact that Janice is the only
Speaker 3: fem in this band where I feel like that has
Speaker 3: been a common trope that is based in reality of
Speaker 3: like the token woman in a band, and Janie very
Speaker 3: much falls into that trope without really commenting on it
Speaker 3: or characterizing her outside of it. So it just sort
Speaker 3: of feels like acknowledging a known trope versus trying to
Speaker 3: subvert it, which again like sucks because you have it's
Speaker 3: almost like Princess Leiah syndrome, where you have one woman
Speaker 3: in this whole cannon, Miss Piggy, who is being thought about,
Speaker 3: who is subverting tropes, who is like acknowledging stuff but
Speaker 3: also pushing back against it, and then you have characters
Speaker 3: like Janis and Camilla who are just falling into the
Speaker 3: trope of the wife who is constantly stepped out on
Speaker 3: but remains and the token woman in the band, whoever
Speaker 3: it is like, it just feels like acknowledgments of Trub's
Speaker 3: as opposed to thoughtfully commenting on them. But get a
Speaker 3: group of men in the room and see if they're
Speaker 3: able to think about more than one woman character. It
Speaker 3: very rarely happens.
Speaker 2: This is so true, and that extends to the human
Speaker 2: women that we see on screen. Because there are tons
Speaker 2: of celebrity cameos in this movie, there are only I
Speaker 2: think three of them are from women. Because you've got
Speaker 2: Carol Kine, Madelin Cohn, and Chloris Leachman. They all have
Speaker 2: tiny little cameos. They're doing quick bits. And that is
Speaker 2: true of some of the men who are doing celebrity cameos,
Speaker 2: but others like Steve Martin and Mel Brooks, for example,
Speaker 2: have like pretty extended, longish scenes where they're on screen
Speaker 2: quite a bit versus all of the women are barely there.
Speaker 2: I think Chloris Leachman has the most screen time slash
Speaker 2: like plot relevancy because there's a whole thing where she's
Speaker 2: allergic to animal hair and she's the assistant to the
Speaker 2: producer who they're trying to, like see to get the audition,
Speaker 2: and they throw all of their animal hair in her
Speaker 2: face so that she sneezes and they can sneak into
Speaker 2: the office. So all this to say, the women aside
Speaker 2: from Miss Piggy are not thought out well at all.
Speaker 2: Slash are barely there.
Speaker 3: Which is a shame. And I also, I mean, just
Speaker 3: like hearkening back to the b kind Rewin essay, I
Speaker 3: think something that she very intelligently comments on is like,
Speaker 3: even though the writing and top level decisions with Miss
Speaker 3: Piggy's character come from men, a lot of what makes
Speaker 3: her iconic. We're designed by women who designed her costumes
Speaker 3: and like designed the aesthetic that surrounds her where she
Speaker 3: is not completely beholden to men, but those are the
Speaker 3: people that sort of ultimately hold the reins on what
Speaker 3: the character says and performs. And I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of ways to look at that,
Speaker 3: and I don't want to be too binary, and like
Speaker 3: who gets to determine who this character is? But when
Speaker 3: you have a room full of CIS men who mostly
Speaker 3: identify as straight making these decisions, you can feel it.
Speaker 3: And it does feel kind of like a miracle that
Speaker 3: you even get Miss Piggy out of a room of
Speaker 3: creatives like this, And so I'm grateful for that. And
Speaker 3: I also I think that the way that women are
Speaker 3: portrayed or just like glaringly not portrayed in the Muppets,
Speaker 3: like definitely leave something to be desired. It's better handled
Speaker 3: in Sesame Street, which has as an Auntie I can
Speaker 3: tell you, steadily introduced more presenting characters into its core
Speaker 3: group over the years to sort of rectify the original
Speaker 3: cast of majority male characters that were introduced to Sesame
Speaker 3: Street in the nineteen sixties. So you are originally presented
Speaker 3: over half a century ago with mostly male identifying muppets,
Speaker 3: But this is a show that's been on for half
Speaker 3: a century, and so they've brought in characters that are
Speaker 3: more representative of the actual world and the Muppets because
Speaker 3: I feel like, of how stop and go they have
Speaker 3: been in terms of cultural relevance, that has never really happened.
Speaker 3: They haven't been updated in the way that a weekly
Speaker 3: show that's been on for half a century would have
Speaker 3: to be updated, and that sucks. And I think, while
Speaker 3: that is a frustration, and while I hope and I
Speaker 3: think that like the Jason Siegel thing was kind of
Speaker 3: a failed attempt to do this, because like, what did
Speaker 3: Jason Siegel do in that original movie he put out,
Speaker 3: besides presenting himself a sis male and this other character
Speaker 3: Walter Us, this male muppet like you just did more
Speaker 3: of the same, so there wasn't any meaningful shift. I
Speaker 3: think if the Muppets do get a huge relaunch, I
Speaker 3: hope it would be with a more diverse behind the
Speaker 3: scenes crew and just a more diverse presentation of who
Speaker 3: the Muppets are, and that as long as the characters
Speaker 3: are strong, it will work. Like right, that's really all
Speaker 3: it takes. If that does happen down the line, I
Speaker 3: hope that there would be meaningful effort behind that. But
Speaker 3: in the meantime, I mean, I think a nice thing
Speaker 3: I want to say is that as dominated by male
Speaker 3: presenting characters as this world is, they are more emotionally
Speaker 3: intelligent than most male characters of this era are, or
Speaker 3: at least more able to present emotion and feelings.
Speaker 2: I would agree with that. It's almost as if characters
Speaker 2: who are not like visibly human it allows them to
Speaker 2: kind of be more emotionally intelligent and expressive. Sure, because
Speaker 2: the pressure of like cis mean to have a certain
Speaker 2: level or perceived masculinity kind of goes out the window
Speaker 2: when it's puppets made of felt, you know, so I
Speaker 2: feel like that probably has something to do with it.
Speaker 3: Yes, so very a very male coping mechanism of like,
Speaker 3: can I express this if it's through my puppet and
Speaker 3: you're like, yeah.
Speaker 2: If that helps, I guess.
Speaker 3: But I do appreciate that, like I mean, and again,
Speaker 3: particularly with Kermit, that he is an imperfect character. He
Speaker 3: has a lot of self doubt. He has a lot
Speaker 3: of uncertainty about himself in the direction his life is going.
Speaker 3: That is presented, you know, like pretty vulnerably and pretty thoughtfully,
Speaker 3: and that's a very consistent element of that character, where
Speaker 3: he is ambitious and he is invested in the characters
Speaker 3: that surround him, but he also has sort of this
Speaker 3: like Achilles heel of doubt in himself. But it's almost
Speaker 3: that same doubt and questioning that often leads to a
Speaker 3: breakthrough that allows him to feel more confident, and usually
Speaker 3: that confidence is rooted in the community he's built around him,
Speaker 3: and true, I think that's beautiful. And you know, in
Speaker 3: a world that is in almost any era like dominated
Speaker 3: by these very stereotypical male characters who are you know,
Speaker 3: bootstrapping their way to blah blah, blah blah blah. It's
Speaker 3: like just this internal confidence or sense of ability that
Speaker 3: allows them to succeed. With Kerrmit usually what allows him
Speaker 3: to succeed as his willingness to be self reflective and
Speaker 3: this kind of softness to this character that doesn't just
Speaker 3: make him able to be more personally satisfied, but also
Speaker 3: in terms of like his relationship with Miss Piggy, it's
Speaker 3: his vulnerability and his softness that makes him appealing romantically,
Speaker 3: which is something that we're also not frequently presented with
Speaker 3: with a male romantic hero. So I think, you know,
Speaker 3: he and Miss Piggy are both very flawed characters, but
Speaker 3: I don't view that as a negative. I think that
Speaker 3: that is just like part of why they are so enduring.
Speaker 2: It's part of the human experience. Slash the Frog and
Speaker 2: pig experience. Yeah, yeah, I like that scene where he
Speaker 2: is talking to himself, like by the campfire in the desert.
Speaker 2: It's a very like Gollum and Smeagel scene to me.
Speaker 3: But like the cuteous version of it. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I love curve It. I just I love them all
Speaker 3: except Fazzi Bear It can suck it. He can I
Speaker 3: wish him the worst.
Speaker 2: Just to speak a little bit more to the kind
Speaker 2: of failure to evolve in the Muppets, the way that
Speaker 2: like Sesame Street has been able to become more inclusive.
Speaker 2: I think it's worth noting that this is an extremely
Speaker 2: white movie slash white cast. All of the Muppets are
Speaker 2: muppeteered and voiced by white men, and all of the
Speaker 2: cameos except for Richard Pryor and maybe one or two
Speaker 2: other exceptions, but otherwise it's overwhelmingly white actors who are
Speaker 2: seen like as human beings in the movie. So yeah,
Speaker 2: just overwhelmingly white cast that I don't think improves very
Speaker 2: much as the Muppets go on, maybe with the exception
Speaker 2: of Muppet Wizard of Oz with Ashantine.
Speaker 3: Quinn Well and we and neither of us have watched
Speaker 3: last year's completely I think watched by no people. Muppet
Speaker 3: Haunted Mansion.
Speaker 2: I started, I was curious, and it was really bad,
Speaker 2: and then I shut it off.
Speaker 3: I can't. I do think it would be really interesting
Speaker 3: to sort of analyze side by side, because I'm not
Speaker 3: an authority on either of these, but like to see
Speaker 3: how and why Sesame Street has kept with the times
Speaker 3: so intelligently were the Muppets. You know, they came from
Speaker 3: the same mind, but it just feels like there's been
Speaker 3: a different amount of care and creative control applied to
Speaker 3: the differing things, because yeah, I mean from when I
Speaker 3: get do I mean from just Sesame Street has always
Speaker 3: been a very diverse world from day one that has
Speaker 3: improved over time, where it was like supposed to accurately
Speaker 3: reflect the demographics of New York City at the time
Speaker 3: that it started, and so it was not an entirely
Speaker 3: white world and it was a poor neighborhood that Sesame
Speaker 3: Street is set in, and I just never I think
Speaker 3: it's like, maybe because the Muppets have such high brow
Speaker 3: aspirations in a way that Sesame Street doesn't because they're
Speaker 3: all supposed to be four or something. I don't know.
Speaker 3: It is interesting to see how the same creative team
Speaker 3: can spawn such different legacies in terms of representation.
Speaker 2: I do like when they drive past Big Bird and
Speaker 2: they're like, do you want to come with us to Hollywood?
Speaker 2: And he's like, no, I'm going to New York City?
Speaker 2: Ever heard of it? And they're like, good look.
Speaker 3: One of the movies I considered pitching for my birthday
Speaker 3: that I was like, I can't do this to Caitlin.
Speaker 3: But I watched it with my niece recently. It's so fun.
Speaker 3: Is the Adventures of the Elmo and Grouchland?
Speaker 2: No, I would have enjoyed that.
Speaker 3: I think it's so good. It's really good. We should
Speaker 3: cover it another time. I also don't know how much
Speaker 3: there would be to talk about because it is a
Speaker 3: movie for four year olds, but like, yeah, I watched
Speaker 3: it with my niece. I remember my little brother went
Speaker 3: to see it in theaters. It was a big deal.
Speaker 3: But it's basically just exactly what it sounds like. Elmo
Speaker 3: goes to Grouchland, where Oscar the Grouch is from. It's
Speaker 3: so iconic. The villain is Mandy Patankin and the fairy
Speaker 3: godmother type character is Vanessa Williams, and it's just unreal.
Speaker 3: It's a very special film, Okay, And I think it's
Speaker 3: one of the only I haven't actually seen this movie
Speaker 3: because it came out a fair amount of time before
Speaker 3: I was born in so have you seen Same Street?
Speaker 3: Follow That Bird? No, it's a movie that came out
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty five, so it predates both of us.
Speaker 3: It's big Bird's movie. Okay, it is showing that the
Speaker 3: new Beverly in a couple of weeks, and I am
Speaker 3: gonna go. We go? Should we go? I like Sesame
Speaker 3: Street movies have historically never worked out. Elmo and Grouchland
Speaker 3: flopped at the box office, damn. But it is an
Speaker 3: incredible movie and I would recommend it.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: Is it a bechel Cast movie? I don't know. I
Speaker 3: don't know. Give us a couple of years.
Speaker 2: Anything could be a bechdel Cast movie.
Speaker 3: It's true.
Speaker 2: It's true.
Speaker 3: A movie is a bechdel Cast movie. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Do you have anything else to say about the Muppet Movie?
Speaker 2: I don't think I do. Do you?
Speaker 3: I don't think so either. I think you know ultimately,
Speaker 3: I you know. On a personal level, I just think
Speaker 3: that this movie and this world, while flawed, is really
Speaker 3: special to me. And I think I probably will, in
Speaker 3: my COVID fugue state after this go and watch the
Speaker 3: defunct Land Jim Henson series, because for any of his
Speaker 3: flaws and personal biases, I just like, I find his
Speaker 3: creative legacy, in his creative trajectory so inspiring and so cool,
Speaker 3: and I just really love his and Frank Oz's collaborations.
Speaker 3: I think they're so special and so boundary pushing, and
Speaker 3: all of the risks that he took in times that
Speaker 3: he was willing to say like, eh, fuck you guys,
Speaker 3: I'll I'll take a pay cut to like try this,
Speaker 3: and sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't, but
Speaker 3: it was always interesting and it was always I don't know,
Speaker 3: I just like, I've been thinking about a lot of
Speaker 3: artists who took those kinds of risks recently, and he
Speaker 3: did it in a way that made it's so I mean,
Speaker 3: I know that Kermit is very much a Jim Henson
Speaker 3: self insert character, but you know the whole idea of that. Yes,
Speaker 3: he did want success and he did want fame, but
Speaker 3: he also only wanted that to the extent that it
Speaker 3: would make others happy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is.
Speaker 3: Kind of a overly simplistic way to present any of that.
Speaker 3: But I just think at its core, it's really cool
Speaker 3: and feels like what Jim Henson was at his core
Speaker 3: for any of his flaws, really trying to do. And
Speaker 3: I just love I love Muppet World. It's the best,
Speaker 3: That's all I have to say.
Speaker 2: Beautiful. The movie does not, unfortunately, pass the Bechdel test.
Speaker 3: No, it does not. It certainly does not know you.
Speaker 3: And that's an l that's a big L hard no.
Speaker 2: But what about our nipple scale where we rate the
Speaker 2: movie on a scale I don't examining it through an
Speaker 2: intersectional feminist lens. Yeah, yeah, you know what, as much
Speaker 2: as I enjoy the Muppets, I don't think this movie
Speaker 2: does very well on the nipple scale. Yeah, I would
Speaker 2: give it, I guess to split down the middle. Let's
Speaker 2: do the bechdelcast cheat code and do two and a half.
Speaker 2: Because there are subversions like when Miss Piggy saves herself
Speaker 2: and saves Kermit and isn't a damsel in distress, which
Speaker 2: is what that scene is deliberately being set up to be,
Speaker 2: and then also deliberately subverts that expectation. And so I
Speaker 2: appreciated moments like that, but those are few and far between,
Speaker 2: and it's mostly just female characters being ignored or not
Speaker 2: really having much bearing on the story. And it's very
Speaker 2: much a focus on the male Muppets and what their
Speaker 2: desires are and what their journey is. And Miss Piggy
Speaker 2: is the most significant character you know who presents as
Speaker 2: a woman, but you know she has a thing or
Speaker 2: two like the other Muppets, to learn about healthy boundaries
Speaker 2: and clear communication. So nice that she's flawed, but I
Speaker 2: don't know. She is like abusive to Kermit a lot
Speaker 2: of the time, and that's not good. All this to say,
Speaker 2: I'll give it to and a half nipples. I'll give
Speaker 2: one to Miss Piggy because of her just like place
Speaker 2: in the Zeitgeist. I'll give one to Camilla because she
Speaker 2: deserves a lot more than she was given. And I'll
Speaker 2: give my half nipple to Janice, who also deserves more. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I will.
Speaker 3: Split down the middle as well. I think that there
Speaker 3: is so much to love from a starting point of subversion.
Speaker 3: Most of this goes to Miss Piggy, and I think
Speaker 3: what this movie fails to do and what the franchise
Speaker 3: fails to do. I would say the Muppet Show, while
Speaker 3: that's a whole other situation, was at least more inclusive
Speaker 3: and included a more diverse group of guest hosts in
Speaker 3: their shows. There's so many incredible iconic episodes with people
Speaker 3: of color, with queer people that were brought onto the show.
Speaker 3: You don't really see that reflected in their first movie
Speaker 3: and or subsequent movie outputs. Really, and that's disappointing because
Speaker 3: it wasn't like they lacked in, you know, celebrity interests
Speaker 3: that were not CIS white people. I think Miss Piggy
Speaker 3: on her own, like really is a game changer, which
Speaker 3: sounds so silly, but I do think it's true. But
Speaker 3: with the other women that populate this world, there's not
Speaker 3: only not enough women and fem characters, but outside of
Speaker 3: Miss Piggy, there's kind of little to be desired in
Speaker 3: terms of character development or further discussion, even though I
Speaker 3: think that the interesting elements of those characters are there
Speaker 3: which were so often frustrated by and that connects to
Speaker 3: who is behind the camera. You know, not to say
Speaker 3: that there is not some gender diversity behind the camera,
Speaker 3: but certainly not in leadership roles or in performers, and
Speaker 3: that obviously makes a huge difference. That said, I think
Speaker 3: that the Muppets have inspired so many incredible creative subsequent
Speaker 3: endeavors that have been more inclusive and have been more thoughtful.
Speaker 3: I just cannot think of anything like them. They're just
Speaker 3: so singular and so special, and I think, for all
Speaker 3: of their faults, very pure of heart and existing to
Speaker 3: bring people joy. And I love them so much, and
Speaker 3: I love this movie so much, so I'm going to
Speaker 3: go to and a half nipples and the Bechdel cast
Speaker 3: nipple scale, but five trillion nipples on the Jamie, I
Speaker 3: love it injected into my veins raw scale. And I
Speaker 3: will give my nipples to Miss Piggy Janice, and I'll
Speaker 3: give the half to Camilla. But I do think that
Speaker 3: she deserves of anyone in this universe, she deserves the
Speaker 3: vanity limited serious treatment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, give her a Chicken Run movie or run Away
Speaker 2: from Gonzo, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: And with that in.
Speaker 3: Mind, if you are interested in the magdal cast talking
Speaker 3: about chickens, we are going to be at the American
Speaker 3: Cinema Tech Friends of the Fest Festival at the Los
Speaker 3: Felis three on August twenty fifth at four pm hosting
Speaker 3: a screening of Chicken Run. Ever heard of it? And
Speaker 3: you can get the tickets to that in the link
Speaker 3: in our Bayo.
Speaker 2: Sweetly, Happy birthday, Jamie.
Speaker 3: Oh thanks, I don't care. This year, I think we
Speaker 3: should go to not It's very far. Yeah that much,
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 3: I need to see Snoopy. I just have this like
Speaker 3: to be close to Snoopy at this time.
Speaker 2: I love that I need to ride a roller coaster.
Speaker 2: So okay, that all works out.
Speaker 3: Two and one, two and one baby.
Speaker 2: You can subscribe to our Matreon at patreon dot com
Speaker 2: slash bachtel Cast, where we put out two bonus episodes
Speaker 2: every month. Plus you get access to our back catalog
Speaker 2: of over one hundred and fifty bonus episodes and that
Speaker 2: is all five dollars a month.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you can also go to our merch store
Speaker 3: teapapic dot com slash Dbachdel Cast for all of your
Speaker 3: merchandising needs. In the meantime, keep it this piggy karate
Speaker 3: chop your romantic interests and we will look No, I'm
Speaker 3: standing by it. I'm standing by it. Send me to jail.
Speaker 3: I'll give a shit. It's my birthday. True and we'll
Speaker 3: see you next week.
Speaker 2: Walka, Walka.
Speaker 3: Comes full circle.
Speaker 2: Ye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,
Speaker 2: hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman,
Speaker 2: edited by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by
Speaker 2: Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskressensky. Our logo and
Speaker 2: merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks
Speaker 2: to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please
Speaker 2: visit Linktree slash Bechdel Cast