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Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the podcast. It could happen here. It's

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Speaker 1: me James and Scharene today. Hi Serene, Hi James, Hi Sarene. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's lovely to have you. Thanks for introducing yourself.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little confused, but he was talking to you.

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Speaker 2: I've done podcasts for a long time and I never

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Speaker 2: actually know how to introduce myself. But I'm really happy

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Speaker 2: to be doing this episode with you because you're a

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Speaker 2: very good episode partner.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Sreen. I am also happy to be doing

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Speaker 1: this episode with you. I think you're an excellent episode partner.

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Speaker 2: What are we talking about that just because I said it?

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Speaker 1: No, I like him. It's good. It's good. We help

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Speaker 1: people learn things.

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Speaker 2: Well, today you're going to learn some more things about Palestine.

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Speaker 2: It's been a minute since we had an update, and

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Speaker 2: I mean, surprise, surprise, things aren't good. So we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about some recent stuff that's been happening. There's

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Speaker 2: we mentioned some stuff that we've mentioned before in other episodes,

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Speaker 2: like the Nekaba or just the ethnic cleansing that happened

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Speaker 2: in nineteen forty eight. Also some politics stuff. So if

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Speaker 2: you are interested in getting more detail and you haven't

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Speaker 2: listened to those. I would recommend listening to those, just

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Speaker 2: for more context if you desire.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I think you're diving in probably at

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Speaker 1: the deep end if you start here. But we're going

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Speaker 1: to dive in at the deep end. So earlier this month,

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Speaker 1: Omar Katten twenty seven, a father of two children who

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Speaker 1: worked as an electrician for the local municipality, was killed

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Speaker 1: when about four hundred Israeli settlers marched down Thaumasaya's main road,

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Speaker 1: selling cars, homes, crops and trees ablaze as they went.

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Speaker 1: It's not clear if you're shot by IDF troops or

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Speaker 1: settlers of both stormed the village carrying weapons. Under international law,

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Speaker 1: Israeli settlement to illegal, however, it's really Prime Minister of

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Speaker 1: Benjamin Netan Yahoo announced plans to build a thousand new

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Speaker 1: housing units in the settlement of Eli in response to

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Speaker 1: the deadly shooting of Forestraelis by two Estinian government on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: the twentieth of June. The suspected assailants were later killed.

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Speaker 1: One of them was quote unquote neutralized by civilian the

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Speaker 1: other by the IDEF. But it appears the plan is

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Speaker 1: to punish the whole nation again. Our antswer to terror

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Speaker 1: is to strike it hard and to build our country.

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Speaker 1: Net Yeah, who said his right wing government is dominated

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Speaker 1: by settler leaders and supporters. But his statements came just

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Speaker 1: days after the government gave far right finance minister there's

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Speaker 1: a little smotorridge sweeping powers to exploit the construction of

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Speaker 1: legal settlements by passing messes that have been in place

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Speaker 1: for almost twenty seven years. The violence in thaumas ayah

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Speaker 1: Am I saying that, right.

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Speaker 2: I just looked it up. Yeah, totmos Aya is it's

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Speaker 2: a town in the West Bank for context people that

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Speaker 2: don't know, so, yeah, it's it's in the Ramola and

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Speaker 2: LBI the governor in the West Bank.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to get a little bit more into

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Speaker 1: it of why this is all happening. We just wanted

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Speaker 1: to kind of pain the paint the picture for you

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Speaker 1: first of all of the bigger events that have happened.

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Speaker 1: I guess. So this violence against the people of this

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Speaker 1: town and the shooting of for Israelis followed an incursion

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Speaker 1: by the IDF and Israeli border forces into the Genine

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Speaker 1: refugee camp. It was an operational scale not seen for decades.

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Speaker 1: So did you tear gas, stun grenades, and an attack helicopter.

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Speaker 1: Seven Palestinians were killed, nearly one hundred were wounded.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like this is not the first time.

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Speaker 2: If you've been following any Palestinian news that you've heard

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Speaker 2: of Janine the refugee camp, or that it's being attacked,

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Speaker 2: it might sound familiar. I'll get into it more later,

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Speaker 2: but Sharen abu Ocle was actually killed while reporting there.

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Speaker 2: So I want to get into just why exactly Israel

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Speaker 2: keeps raiding the Janine refugee camp in particular, and I

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Speaker 2: want to talk about the camp's history, why it's getting targeted,

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Speaker 2: and why the latest raid was different than the ones

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Speaker 2: before it. Janine is slowly becoming a symbol of Palestinian resistance.

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Speaker 2: It was originally established in nineteen fifty three to house

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Speaker 2: Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed during the Nekaba of nineteen

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Speaker 2: forty eight, which forced some seven hundred and fifty thousand

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Speaker 2: people from their homes in order to make way for

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Speaker 2: the establishment of Israel. And again we've talked about this

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Speaker 2: in other episodes. You want to revisit those, but essentially,

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Speaker 2: he was just a very perfect example of ethnic cleansing

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Speaker 2: and massacres in genocide and displacement. So the camp has

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Speaker 2: seen much unrest over the decades, and it was nearly

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Speaker 2: destroyed in two thousand and two when Israeli soldiers ambushed

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Speaker 2: it during the Second Antifada. According to a Human Rights

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Speaker 2: Watch investigation, at least fifty two Palestinians, including women and children,

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Speaker 2: were killed during this period of time. In two thousand

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Speaker 2: and two, during the Second anthli Fada, there were also

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Speaker 2: at least twenty three Israeli soldiers killed and several others

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Speaker 2: injured that were reported. And since then, Janine has recently

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Speaker 2: seen intensifying attacks by Israeli forces, especially since twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: and it has slowly, along with Gaza, become a major

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Speaker 2: symbol of Palestinian resistance. At this point, Palestinians are really

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Speaker 2: fed up with the enaction of the Palestinian Authority the PA,

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Speaker 2: which is the government entity meant to oversee and quote

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Speaker 2: unquote protect the Palestinians within its governance. The Palestine Authority

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Speaker 2: was formed in nineteen ninety four following the Gaza Jericho

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Speaker 2: Agreement between the PLO and the Government of Israel, and

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Speaker 2: it was only intended to be a five year interim body.

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Speaker 2: Further negotiations were then meant to take place between the

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Speaker 2: two parties regarding its final status. According to the Oslo Accords,

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Speaker 2: the Palestinian Authority was designated to have exclusive control over

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Speaker 2: both security related and civilian issues in the Palestinian urban areas,

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Speaker 2: which are referred to as Area A, and only Palestinian

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Speaker 2: control over Palestinian rural areas, which is called Area B.

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Speaker 2: The remainder of the territories, including Israeli settlement, the Jordan

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Speaker 2: Valley region and bypass roads between Palestinian communities, were remain

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Speaker 2: under Israeli control aka Area C. East Jerusalem was excluded

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Speaker 2: from the accords. Negotiations with several Israeli governments had resulted

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Speaker 2: in the Authority gaining further control in some areas, but

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Speaker 2: that control was then lost in some areas when Israel

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Speaker 2: retook several strategic positions during the Second Antifaba. At this point,

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Speaker 2: the Palestine Authority is an authoritarian regime that has not

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Speaker 2: held elections in over fifteen years, and it doesn't really

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Speaker 2: stand in the way of the Israeli government and the

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Speaker 2: crimes they commit. So what concerns Israel Is that in

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Speaker 2: Janine and elsewhere, young Palestinians are increasingly taking up arms

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Speaker 2: because they see no other way out of the pressure

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Speaker 2: of occupation and they're very disillusioned with the ineffectiveness of

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Speaker 2: the Palestinian authority.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really important way too, Like

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Speaker 1: when we talk about like especially Palestinian people taking up arms,

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Speaker 1: right or expecting these new groups which come in the

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Speaker 1: last couple of years, Right, there's that Lions Day group.

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Speaker 1: I think they're more from nables. Janine Brigades is another one.

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Speaker 1: It's in the context of like government failure or state

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Speaker 1: failure in I guess when we look at like the

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Speaker 1: formation of states, right, when there's it's called social contracts

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Speaker 1: the area, right, the idea that when we go and consent,

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Speaker 1: which we don't do, but we don't ever, like we

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Speaker 1: don't have a chance to consent to being in a state, right,

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Speaker 1: like very obviously if you're from Palestine, you're aware of this,

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Speaker 1: Like we were supposed to give up some of our

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Speaker 1: freedom and get some security. But the Palestinian authority has

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Speaker 1: repeatedly failed to protect people in Geneine, right, and in

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Speaker 1: lots of other places too, and so like this response,

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Speaker 1: like this response is taking up aren't is in the

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Speaker 1: context of state failure, right, Like people are trying to

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Speaker 1: protect their own communities when there's been a complete failure

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Speaker 1: by the people who are supposed to protect them, the

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Speaker 1: people who is and that's both the PA and then

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Speaker 1: like the broader the international community is kind of a

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Speaker 1: pointless phrase. It doesn't really mean anything. But like international

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Speaker 1: law is also a pointless phrase. It doesn't really mean anything,

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Speaker 1: which I'm getting too far afield here, but like the

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Speaker 1: amount of times people in my replies on Twitter will

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Speaker 1: be like this is against international law, and like are

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Speaker 1: you going to go and fucking enforce it? Then?

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Speaker 2: Like guess if that matter is at that point?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like good, it doesn't matter, like what

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Speaker 1: we know it's bad. I don't like, that's not what's

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Speaker 1: up for debate? What's for debates? What the fuck are

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Speaker 1: you going to do about it? How are you going

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Speaker 1: to stop it? And like these people have decided that

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Speaker 1: the way they're going to stop it is by taking

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Speaker 1: up arms, and like evidently Israel sees them as terrorists.

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Speaker 1: Evidently there are some groups inside Palestine who have killed

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Speaker 1: civilians and done ship which is is, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: it's not very nice. Also, the idea of killed civilians

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Speaker 1: all the time, right, one of them is funded and

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Speaker 1: armed by your taxes, and so like, yeah, it's an

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Speaker 1: understandable response. And the response of the IDF is to

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Speaker 1: sort of paint the whole of Janine as harboring quote

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Speaker 1: unquoite terrorists, right, which which is, and then to do

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Speaker 1: these attacks which often cause civilian casualties, which is not

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Speaker 1: that distinct from suggesting that Israel is a terrorist state, right,

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Speaker 1: and then attacking Israel, which like, but one of these

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Speaker 1: things is more broadly condemned is terrorism, and one is

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Speaker 1: not as broadly condemned as terrorism. When then they're not,

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Speaker 1: to my eye, that morally different. I guess, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: makes sense.

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Speaker 2: I agree, and I also think, no, it makes a

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Speaker 2: lot of sense. I think remembering the imbalance that it

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Speaker 2: starts at is so important because Palestine has no army,

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Speaker 2: it's not backed by any rich ass nation, it's not

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Speaker 2: trained by anything, and it's an extremely unbalanced quote unquote battle.

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Speaker 1: No one's deploying an Apache helicopter when when the idea

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Speaker 1: of killers journalist.

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Speaker 2: Right, like exactly, and yeah, like Sharenabut Ockley was a

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Speaker 2: US citizen. Not that it matters, but it should matter

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Speaker 2: just in the idea of what the US can do

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Speaker 2: or like the outrage it can have, but it doesn't

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Speaker 2: do anything.

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Speaker 1: As a journalist who goes to dangerous places and is

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Speaker 1: a US citizen. Now, like it's fucking infuriating and obviously

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Speaker 1: like and particularly thing that like, you know, like daddy

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Speaker 1: government is coming to save me. I'm not like you know,

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Speaker 1: if you if you're laboring under that illusion, you're probably

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Speaker 1: a little bit naive. But it is just incredibly frustrating

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Speaker 1: to see the value of some quote unquote American lives,

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Speaker 1: like it's it's it's always wrong to shoot journalists, of course,

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Speaker 1: but like it's just in the US basically condoning that. Yes, again,

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Speaker 1: this isn't the first fucking like Arab journalist that the

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Speaker 1: US who is a US citizen who has been killed

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Speaker 1: by an authoritarian regime that the US had done fuck

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Speaker 1: all about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think it's just a slap in the

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Speaker 2: face for her family and just the entire community of

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Speaker 2: like both Arabs and journalists and that crossover there. But

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Speaker 2: I did want to mention just the terrorism acts on

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Speaker 2: both sides are obviously terrible. I always think you have

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Speaker 2: to remember where they started and the imbalance that is there,

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Speaker 2: especially if the entity that is supposed to protect the

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Speaker 2: Palestinians isn't doing shit and the only way Palestinians can

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Speaker 2: fight back or defend themselves is with violence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's just frustrating when people point out the violence on

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Speaker 2: just the Palestinian side, and we'll get into the news

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Speaker 2: version of what that means and then biases of what

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Speaker 2: that means it a little bit, but yeah, I just

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Speaker 2: that's just explaining exactly why these groups have risen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just to be an absolute fuckingd weep for

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Speaker 1: a second. The introduction to Wretched of the Earth that

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Speaker 1: Johann Paul Starts wrote, it's a France fann On book,

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Speaker 1: is fantastic when talking about violence and violence in the

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Speaker 1: dicolonial process, and like how it's very nice that these

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Speaker 1: colonial states, apartheid states like Israel speak in the language

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Speaker 1: of rights. Yeah, and they encourage to colonize people to

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Speaker 1: make their claims in the language of rights. But every

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Speaker 1: time they fucking do, they get met with violence, right,

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Speaker 1: And it is entirely understandable that when the state speaks

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Speaker 1: you only in violence, you will reply using the same

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Speaker 1: language that is spoken to you with right, Like that,

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Speaker 1: that is how decolonial struggles have been, right from Algeria

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Speaker 1: to Vietnam to Palestine. And like this isn't a particularly

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Speaker 1: like under theorized concept. It's there and fanol in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. That's always something I like to suggest people read.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a very good kind of distillation of

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Speaker 1: what's occurring.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I like that you mentioned that because it

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Speaker 2: does seem like that this is like a Palestinian problem

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Speaker 2: that they have, that they are violent and that they

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Speaker 2: hate the other side, and it is just another good

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Speaker 2: example of the effects of colonialism and like that's the

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Speaker 2: occupied people and their only choice of like retaliation. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to get into that too much, but

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Speaker 2: I do want to emphasize why exactly that they were disillusioned,

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Speaker 2: the Palestinian youth, especially during this time, because the IDEF

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Speaker 2: has been extremely violent and the PA still is really

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Speaker 2: inactive and doesn't do anything. So that's kind of the

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Speaker 2: reason why there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we have a little more in Shrina Buaclavionna.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we have an episode about her, I believe,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to mention her a little bit here.

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Speaker 2: The Genin refugee camp houses armed fighters and they are

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Speaker 2: from several factions, but this means Israeli's They consider it

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Speaker 2: a hub for what they call terrorist activity rather than resistance,

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Speaker 2: so the entire camp is then dubbed a terrorist site.

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Speaker 2: But most of the people that the IDEF has killed

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Speaker 2: are not engaging in any sort of violent activity, and

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Speaker 2: in some cases they are clearly marked as press wearing

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Speaker 2: a bulletproof vest and a helmet, like El Jazeera journalist

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Speaker 2: Sharinabu Akle, for one, she was shot dead by an

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Speaker 2: Israeli sniper in May twenty twenty two, and in her case,

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Speaker 2: the IDF said they were aiming at armed Palestinians who

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Speaker 2: were shooting at them and responding with fire, and after

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Speaker 2: I don't know a lot of inconclusive proof in the

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Speaker 2: IDF sticking to that story. A ballistics analysis proved that

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Speaker 2: that's story wasn't true and there was no fire coming

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Speaker 2: from the other side, But regardless, no one cares about that.

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Speaker 2: And this happened all in Janine, So I think it's

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Speaker 2: very clear why this camp has become a symbol of

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Speaker 2: resistance simply because the atrocities that have happened there are

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Speaker 2: tremendous and they keep fighting back. And I think it's

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Speaker 2: an example of how exactly a Palestinian symbol comes to be,

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Speaker 2: like gaza, like this, whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to include a coat from the Israeli military

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Speaker 1: spokesman Ran Kochov, and he told Army Radio, which I

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Speaker 1: guess is not exactly a kind of neutral arbititter here,

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Speaker 1: that she was filming and working for a media outlet

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Speaker 1: amidst arm Palestinians. They were armed with cameras if you

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Speaker 1: will permit me to say so, which like no, like

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Speaker 1: we should not really not fucking permit someone because like

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll go to all kinds of dangerous spots

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Speaker 1: with a camera. Like I've never fucking shot someone with

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Speaker 1: a camera, because it's a fucking camera, right, Like it doesn't,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't, that's not what cameras do. They take videos.

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Speaker 2: That is the most Like I can't believe that's an

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Speaker 2: actual quote that's someone said and got away with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what the fuck is wrong? Like what And it's

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Speaker 1: just incorrect operation of the human brain to use the

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Speaker 1: fucking phrase arm with camera, Like, what is wrong with you?

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Speaker 1: It's I know, people get really people got really mad

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Speaker 1: briefly when Russians were shooting journalists in Ukraine in the

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Speaker 1: start of the conflict, and like I guess they were

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Speaker 1: kind of as a mask off about it, but like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a fucking camera. If if your security is threatened

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Speaker 1: by someone filming the ship that you do, it's because

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't be doing it, and you know you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be doing it right, like and again, like I've experienced that,

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Speaker 1: like people people, you know, doing stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: to be filmed and getting mad that I'm filming it.

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Speaker 1: But like maybe if you're not prepared to defend what

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Speaker 1: you're doing, you shouldn't be doing it. You don't, you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't suggest that the camera is the camera? Is

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Speaker 1: it's a neutral object here, it's it's not the camera

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Speaker 1: and shot a woman in the head.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that sentence is infuriating the fact that

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Speaker 2: literally it says they were amidst armed Palestinians and then

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Speaker 2: you could you could stop there and people can just

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Speaker 2: like click out and read and like move on their

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Speaker 2: day thinking that they had fucking guns. And the next

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Speaker 2: sentence is literally they're armed with cameras, Like are you

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Speaker 2: I don't know. That's just so infuriating to me that

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Speaker 2: that's like a real thing that was said and accepted.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be like almost deliberately insulting or I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like it's definitely an attack on Like I

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Speaker 1: don't know. If you're a journalist and you don't see

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Speaker 1: that of an attack on all of us, then you know,

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Speaker 1: made me examine your biases, I guess. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then the ballistics analysis that I mentioned earlier where

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Speaker 2: she was it showed that where she was shot there

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Speaker 2: were several targeted shots, one of which hit her head

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Speaker 2: because there were shots in the tree that was behind her,

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Speaker 2: so she was clearly targeted.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because she was shot by a sniper at the

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Speaker 1: back of one of their APC's right, they have a

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Speaker 1: little little like murder hole, and she was shot from

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Speaker 1: two hundred meters to which is not very far with

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Speaker 1: a magnified signe and like, yeah, you don't just it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't look like that, I guess, Like three little holes

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Speaker 1: behind where her head was suggest that someone fired like

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Speaker 1: a single shots targeted, not just like spraying it sprain

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Speaker 1: bullets around. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about it too much because

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Speaker 2: there it is, that's on the topic of this episode.

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Speaker 2: But I do want to just say that I think

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Speaker 2: it's so ironic that the idea is supposed to be

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Speaker 2: this most advanced military body, this highly trained thing, and

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Speaker 2: then at the same breath their defenses sometimes they made

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Speaker 2: a mistake. Oops, you know what I mean, Like they

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Speaker 2: made this grave mistake. They thought she was carrying a

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Speaker 2: gun or she was around people with guns. I just

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Speaker 2: think that's a very silly I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm being shure. It's true, I suppose, and you can.

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Speaker 1: You can make mistakes. But if you make mistakes, you

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Speaker 1: own them. You could still be like, oh, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: we one hundred percent fucked up, and like we need

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Speaker 1: to examine how we fucked up.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's just their defense. So many times it

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Speaker 2: gets really fucking old. But Okay, before we continue and

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Speaker 2: talk about the recent attack in Janine, let's take our

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Speaker 2: first break and we'll be right back. And we're back.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back to talk about the latest raid on

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Speaker 2: the Janine refugee camp. The Israeli Army launched its latest

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Speaker 2: raid on the Janine refugee camp in the early hours

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Speaker 2: of Monday, June nineteenth. Five people, including a fifteen year old,

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Speaker 2: were dead by the time it withdrew its forces in

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Speaker 2: the afternoon. Others died the following day because of their injuries.

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Speaker 2: Several journalists were shot at and they were surrounded and

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Speaker 2: one was injured. This raid ironically took place near the

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Speaker 2: location where Shari Abulakhlei was killed. Several ambulances were also

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Speaker 2: fired upon with live ammunition, and at first they were

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Speaker 2: denied access to the injured, which is nothing new to

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Speaker 2: the IDF. They do this consistently with the block a

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Speaker 2: medical aid to reach the people that are injured. The

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Speaker 2: Israeli armies said the raid was to arrest two suspects,

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Speaker 2: one of whom was a former Palestinian prisoner, as Sem

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Speaker 2: Abu ad Haija, who was the son of an imprisoned

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Speaker 2: Hamas leader. I just want a quick reminder of refresh.

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Speaker 2: I know I say this in most of the episodes

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Speaker 2: about Palestine, especially the ones I've done in the beginning

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Speaker 2: of this year, but in twenty twenty two, Israeli forces

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Speaker 2: killed more than one hundred and seventy Palestinians, including at

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Speaker 2: least thirty children in occupied East Jerusalem and in the

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Speaker 2: West Bank, and this is described as the deadliest year

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Speaker 2: for Palestinians and those living in those areas since two

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Speaker 2: thousand and six. Since the start of twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 2: Israeli forces have killed at least one hundred and sixty Palestinians,

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Speaker 2: including twenty six children, and it's June. The death toll

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Speaker 2: includes thirty six Palestinians killed by the Israeli army during

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Speaker 2: a four day assault on the besieged Gaza strip between

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Speaker 2: May ninth and May thirteenth of this year. I just

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Speaker 2: want to put that into context because if twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: two was the deadliest year for Palestinians in the last

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Speaker 2: twenty years and we're essentially already there by six months

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Speaker 2: into this new year, it's just it's really disturbing and

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Speaker 2: it's really heartbreaking that it's truly there's no slowing down.

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Speaker 2: And this raid is a great example of them just

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Speaker 2: like upping the ante. And what was different about this raid.

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Speaker 2: Israeli offenses into Janine are nothing new, but it appeared

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Speaker 2: that the raiding soldiers were caught off guard this time.

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Speaker 2: Shortly after the raid began, videos showed an Israeli military

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Speaker 2: panther APC being hit with a roadside improvised explosive device,

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Speaker 2: and there is a video of this. I haven't seen

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Speaker 2: it because I just personally don't want to, but asadare

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Speaker 2: if you choose to see it. Military helicopters then began

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Speaker 2: shooting and launching rockets and flares while surveillance aircraft hovered above.

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Speaker 2: It was the first time in twenty years that Israel

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Speaker 2: deployed helicopter gunships in the West Bank. By the end

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Speaker 2: of the raid, reports suggested that at least five Israeli

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Speaker 2: military vehicles had been damaged by explosive devices and bullets

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Speaker 2: deployed by armed Palestinians. This was the first time the

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Speaker 2: IDF was met with this understandable degree of resistance and

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Speaker 2: defense in Nganine, and their response was overwhelming in return.

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's James and Train again and we're here

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Speaker 1: today for a little update. It's the third of July

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Speaker 1: as we're recording this. Just because there's been a significantly

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Speaker 1: larger IDF incursion into a Genine refugee camp, and because

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Speaker 1: we know this is coming out at the end of

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Speaker 1: the week, we wanted to make sure you had a

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Speaker 1: little bit more update to date information, so as best

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Speaker 1: I can kind of beez it together. What happened is

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Speaker 1: that some mis military vehicles were hit with an ied

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Speaker 1: A bomb right roadside bomb and provides explosive device, and

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Speaker 1: Israel responded by going fully ham on a scale that

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Speaker 1: we haven't really seen since the second in Defider. So

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Speaker 1: there's air attacks, droned helicopters, armored vehicles. I saw them

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Speaker 1: using like an anti tank missile against a house. Saw

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Speaker 1: videos of armored bulldozers tearing up roads in the camp,

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Speaker 1: and preps sreen you could kind of give a scale

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Speaker 1: of what this has done, not just to roads obviously,

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Speaker 1: but to the people who live there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like James was saying, they're continuing to attack with

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Speaker 2: drones and rockets, and the Janine refugee camp is very

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Speaker 2: densely populated. It has about twenty thousand people, and they

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Speaker 2: are targeting infrastructure like homes and roads and the mirror

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Speaker 2: of Janine. Nidhal Obaidi, he said the attack was a

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Speaker 2: real massacre and an attempt to wipe out all aspects

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Speaker 2: of life inside the city and the camp. Those being

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Speaker 2: targeted now are not just the resistance fighters, but civilians

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Speaker 2: are being killed and wounded as well, and water and

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Speaker 2: electricity services have also been cut off from the camp

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Speaker 2: since the attack has started, and the Palestine Recrescent said

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Speaker 2: that at least three thousand people were evacuated from the camp.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then as far as we like at time

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Speaker 1: of recording, which is Monday afternoon, eight people have been killed.

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Speaker 1: One more person was called in Romala. The two youngest

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Speaker 1: victims were identified as Nordin Hassam Yusuf Marshud who is fifteen,

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Speaker 1: and seventeen year old Majdi Johannis Saud Ararawi. So both

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Speaker 1: of them under eighteen, but the oldest person was twenty three,

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Speaker 1: so these are all very young people. Salia dead now,

431
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 1: and then they estimate that Palestinia request estimates at three

432
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: thousand people have left the camp, which I think paints

433
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: a picture of like emptying or cleaning or whatever colonial

434
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: sort of word you want to use to make it

435
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: seem less brutal than it is, but like emptying the

436
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: space of human being so that it can be colonized

437
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 1: or that other folks can move there.

438
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, Yeah. In addition to some places are saying

439
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 2: eight have died some people some places are saying nine,

440
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: but regardless, there are over one hundred people that are injured.

441
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: And so I don't know, the fact that the oldest

442
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: person was only twenty three years old should really paint

443
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: the picture of like who exactly is being targeted and killed,

444
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: because there's no way their defense of targeting terrorists can

445
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: play here, even though it probably does in the long run.

446
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: But I just I think it's really fucked up and unfair.

447
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 2: The White House meanwhile, so the United States quote supports

448
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 2: israel security and right to defend its people against Hamas,

449
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 2: Palestinian is Jihad and other terrorist groups, and they also

450
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: highlighted the need to product noncombatants, which hasn't happened, and

451
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: none of those people are actually being targeted or there's

452
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: nothing to defend at this point, I really don't.

453
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's also weird that I don't know,

454
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: Like it just seems such a knee jerk response. So

455
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: maybe this is just me being being a dweeb or whatever.

456
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: But like, at least one of the IDs was was

457
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: like claimed by Janine Brigades, I think the one earlier

458
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: last week to call out groups by name like and

459
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: then not call out the group who are claiming responsibility

460
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,959
Speaker 1: for at least one of these attacks. It just seems

461
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 1: so like okay, like press play on the tape.

462
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're also naming things that people are probably more

463
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: familiar with, like almost to like justify or like entice

464
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: fear of being like, oh my god, yeah Hamas attack

465
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: Hamas or whatever they think will happen with that response.

466
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: Ian.

467
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 2: The international response, Yeah, the international response has also been

468
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: dog shit surprise, surprise. It's because this will always just

469
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: talk and nothing really happens. Turkey's Foreign Ministry voice is

470
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 2: deep concern over the attack. They warned that it can

471
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: trigger a new spiral of violence it already has, and

472
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: they called the Israeli encourasion a heinous crime. Cut Her

473
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 2: stress that the need for international community to move urgently

474
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: to protect the Palestinian people was very necessary. And then

475
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 2: Jordan condemned the escalation as a violation of international humanitarian law,

476
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: which Israel has been breaking for years, so nothing has happened.

477
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: And then Egypt, on the other hand, it warned of

478
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: serious repercussions and it called on other international people to intervene.

479
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: And then the UN said the situation is very dangerous

480
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: like all these things I think have already been said

481
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 2: every time. That's why I just think it's so empty.

482
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I nothing if it's just words

483
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,719
Speaker 2: and no actions, Like, how are we supposed to even

484
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 2: take anything seriously? I guess I don't know.

485
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the it's the thoughts and prayers of the

486
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: h executive national like the UN is always deeply concerned,

487
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: but it never does fuck all right, So yeah, I

488
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: guess to wrap up, we should talk about like what

489
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: this means for Janine as a place or like as

490
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: a community.

491
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, we mentioned this in our previous recording last week.

492
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: But Israel's attacks on Janine are part of an effort

493
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: to crush resistance with the young Palestinians that are increasingly

494
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: taking up arms because their disillusioned with the PA, and

495
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: according to analysts, Israel's hard right government is likely to

496
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: continue with heavy handed approach toward Palestinians in the West Bank.

497
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: Palestinian lawyer and analyst Deanna Buttou said Israel wants to

498
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: do whatever it can to crush Janine in any other

499
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: form of resistance. Israel has made it clear that there

500
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: are three options available for Palestinians. Option one is to leave.

501
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: Option two is to remain as residents, but not as

502
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: citizens of any state. And option three is if you resist,

503
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: we are going to crush you. This is what they

504
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: are implementing.

505
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's well said.

506
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Hassan Ayub, who is a Palestinian political science professor

507
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: at n Naja National University in Nablus, he agreed with

508
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: the lawyer's statement, and he said the end game is

509
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: to make Palestinians give up any hope of achieving self

510
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: determination or being recognized as a people. Janine has a

511
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 2: long history of resistance. It is a model for the

512
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: masses that Israel wants to eliminate. But for Palestinians, the

513
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: question is a matter of principle, and their endgame is

514
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,479
Speaker 2: to end this occupation. And essentially Israel intends to crush

515
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: what I you refer to as quote the Janine phenomenon

516
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: or any form of Palestinian resistance. Yeah, the Israeli aggression.

517
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: Fears of an escalation that continues to happen in areas

518
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: such as the Gaza Strip because that's another symbolic place

519
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: of resistance for Palestinians. And yeah, that's where we are now.

520
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: That's pretty much it will I reach out to some

521
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: people I know, but people generally don't like to be

522
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: on their phones when this stuff is happening. So maybe

523
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: we'll update you with some more information.

524
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully. I mean updates like this are always kind

525
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: of like unfortunate because I don't think we want to

526
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: update that more shitty things are happening, but especially with

527
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: stuff like this, it doesn't seem like Israel is going

528
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: to back down anytime soon. So yeah, that's that's the update.

529
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, so I wanted to talk about some of

530
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: the people who were killed. One of the people who

531
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: was killed was I'm dadf al Jas. He was forty

532
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: eight done age twenty two. Was killed in the Guinane

533
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: masacre that occurred in January this year. So it kind

534
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: of gives you a sense of like the risk that

535
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: I guess one incurs unwillingly by existing in what is

536
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: a fucking refugee camp. His son wasn't the only young

537
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: person killed. Another person who's killed was a Sadil Naja Nachia.

538
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: She was fifteen, and a few days later her classmates

539
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: attended her funeral, all in their school uniforms. It's pretty sad.

540
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: There are obviously images of it if you want to

541
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: go like the up but you can see lots of

542
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: little school girls burying their friend in a town which

543
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: is covered in burned detritus. No one should have to

544
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: bury their kids. It's a horrible kid shouldn't have to

545
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: deal with this shit. But there are plenty of pictures

546
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: of little school girls standing by her grave. It's a

547
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: it's awful, so horrible. Yeah. The other victims were identified

548
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: as Ahmed Soaker, Ahmed Da Rachma, Colored Darwish Kassam Pais Labusilia.

549
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: They were fifteen, nineteen, twenty one, nineteen and twenty nine respectively.

550
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: They after this occurred, the aforementioned attack on settlers in

551
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: Eli took place. Two gunman shown to a gas station

552
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: or restaurant. One was killed on the scene and one

553
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: was killed later. It was a response to the master

554
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: of attack on Tumasaiah that occurred a few days before.

555
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: And I want to highlight how the NYT covered this

556
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: because I think it's important to like dissect how Palestine

557
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: is covered by the US right because obviously the US

558
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: is one of the biggest state supporters of Israel, and

559
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: specifically one of the people who continues to equip the

560
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: IDF to do this stuff. Right, So I'm quoting here directly.

561
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: Last week, two Palestinians called for Israelis and injured four

562
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: others near the Eli Settlement, escalating monthlung violence between Palestinians

563
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: and Israelis in the West Bank. The next day, some

564
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: four hundred settlers descended on several Palestinian villages, including Tulmasayah,

565
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: a prosperous town near Ramala, where reportedly they torched cars

566
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: and homes. That I want to I want to stop

567
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: right there, because it is not reportedly right, Like we

568
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: do not have to qualify this with like maybe or

569
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: like we've just seen this on Twitter dot com. Like

570
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: you could probably see this shit on Google Maps, right,

571
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: Like they torched a town. There's massive damage done. Even

572
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: the New York Times itself didn't qualify it as a

573
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: reported incident in its own reporting. And this isn't we

574
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: don't hear the same thing with the two Palestinian gunmen, right,

575
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: Just to read the first opening sentence again, last week,

576
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: two Palestinian carriers killed for Israelis. It's just stated as

577
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: a fact, right, And these just within those couple of sentences.

578
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: You can see so much of the bias in the

579
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: way this is reported, so much of the different perspectives

580
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: through which state violence. I would encourage people not to

581
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: use terrorism. I would encourage them to see things, especially

582
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: in this context, in terms of political violence. Right, there

583
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: is political violence done by both sides. One of those

584
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: sides is a state actor, the other side is a

585
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: non state actor. But qualifying one and making it distinct

586
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: from the other, I think is shoddy journalism, and I

587
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: don't think it really helps us understand this situation. So

588
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: what happened, right, Like, fifteen homes were burned, sixty vehicles

589
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 1: were burned, and the writer's sort of quote unquote sort

590
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: of saying this is reportedly. It's not true. It's a

591
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: thing that really happened. Another kind of phrasing that I've

592
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: found really objectionable in this instance is clashes, right, Like

593
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: often you'll see clashes engine uh, and like that casts

594
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: a lens of parity, or like it looks at these

595
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: things through a lens of parity, which I don't think

596
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 1: is real on the ground. Like, it's not a clash

597
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: when a helicopter is firing rockets, even if it is

598
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: firing rockets at people with kalashnikovs, right like that it's

599
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: not a clash. There's not really a parity there, right like,

600
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: And it's it also kind of downplays a violence of

601
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: what's happening, right, it's an attack, it's an assault. I

602
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: think the constant use of clashes, right it's nearly always.

603
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: You don't really see it used anywhere else, or if

604
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: you do, it's for it's for much less severe violence,

605
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: like like clashes between an arrival football fans, not that

606
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: that can't be very violent, care, but you don't really

607
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: see this word used to characterize like state violence on

608
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: this scale anywhere else. And so I would really encourage

609
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: people when they're reading, especially coverage of this, right, which

610
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 1: is an issue that the US cannot get its head

611
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: out of it to us about uh, to look for

612
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: this bias language. And if you're reading coverage or anything else, right,

613
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: if you're reading coverage something and you start to notice that,

614
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: like I would perhaps question where you're getting your coverage from.

615
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: And I know you had some shit to say about

616
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: the New York Times sharing.

617
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I one really liked what you said

618
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: about referring to it as state violence versus terrorism, because

619
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: I think it's a huge point that I also want

620
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: to adopt, because I didn't even really transfer that over

621
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: until just now when you said it, and I think

622
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: it's a really important distinction. So thank you for that.

623
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, the New York Times, as well as many,

624
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: if not most news organizations, they're incredibly biased when it

625
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: comes to Palestine is real reporting, and The New York

626
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 2: Times in particular has been absolute dog shit and their

627
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 2: coverage of Palestine for quite a while now. There has

628
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: been a persistent pattern of bias when it comes to

629
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: Israel and Palestine. I'm going to go in chronological order,

630
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 2: and then James will jump back in with the recent

631
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 2: article about the New York Times and this terrible thing

632
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 2: that it has within it that I'm not going to

633
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: give away right now. But let's go back in time

634
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: to February twenty eleven, when The New York Times published

635
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: a piece on JVP activism in the Bay Area. JVP

636
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: stands for Jewish Voices for Peace, and this article said,

637
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: the activists say they are not working against Israel, but

638
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: against the Israeli government policies they believe are a discriminatory

639
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 2: which is yes, correct, But in the editor's note. The

640
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: Times later wrote that one of the articles two authors

641
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: was a pro Palestinian advocate and that he should not

642
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 2: have written the article and should not have been allowed

643
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 2: to write it. So it initially seems like good reporting

644
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: because it's true you're protesting against the Israeli government. But

645
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: then to say that a Palestinian advocate can't write it

646
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 2: is ridiculous, So fuck you New York Times. And then

647
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen, a study was done analyzing the New

648
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: York Times publications during the period of September tenth and

649
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: October fourteenth and twenty fifteen. At the time of the

650
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 2: study in twenty fifteen, two thousand Palestinians had been injured

651
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: while eighty three Israelis were injured, just for context of

652
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: what the reporting was about, and the study analyzed thirty

653
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,959
Speaker 2: six articles. In these articles, the New York Times talked

654
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: about Palestinian quote unquote violence thirty six times and Israeli

655
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: violence two times. The word attack was used to describe

656
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 2: Palestinian actions one hundred and ten times, in Israeli actions

657
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: seventeen times. They used the word terrorist forty two times

658
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 2: to refer to Palestinian violence, and one time one time

659
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: to refer to Israeli violence. More than half of the

660
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: New York Times headlines during that whole year depicted Palestinians

661
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 2: as the instigators of violence. Zero headlines depicted the Israelis

662
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 2: as aggressors. None and nothing has changed. I know that's

663
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: from a period in twenty fifteen, but that's basically consistent,

664
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: if not more so prevalent. Now. It just seems like

665
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: the New York Times editorial board refuses to incorporate Palestine

666
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: perspective into its editorials, even though there have been many

667
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 2: calls to do so, and this leads it to fundamentally

668
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: misread the reality on the ground in Palestine. And it

669
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: clearly shows the newspaper's bias when it comes to what

670
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 2: it chooses to include about Palestine and from whom. Of

671
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 2: the two thy four hundred and ninety opinion pieces about Palestinians,

672
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: but the New York Times published between nineteen seventy in

673
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, only forty six written by actual Palestinians, which

674
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 2: is an average of less than two percent. With the

675
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: lack of Palestinian and Arab columnists that are even employed

676
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,479
Speaker 2: by New York Times, a kind of group think has

677
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 2: inevitably emerged there, and this group think consistently places Israel,

678
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: Israeli framings and Israeli perspectives above those of Palestinians. A

679
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 2: keyword search of the Times editorials that discuss Palestinians is

680
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 2: like this. Between nineteen seventy and twenty nineteen, the word

681
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: peace appeared one thousand and one hundred and twelve times,

682
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: but justice only appeared eighty six times. Terror was mentioned

683
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: six hundred and forty nine times, but occupation was only

684
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: mentioned two hundred and nineteen times, two hundred and nineteen times.

685
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 2: I want to also remind you this is from starting

686
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: from nineteen seventy. Israel's security quote unquote was written ninety times,

687
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 2: but Palestinian freedom was mentioned just three times. While keyboard

688
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 2: searches alone do not tell the whole story, they do

689
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 2: help us get a sense of the overall tenor of

690
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: the Times coverage, and over the last five decades, Israel

691
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 2: has been unquestioningly presented by Times editors as a close ally,

692
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: while the Palestinians have been consistently framed as a problem.

693
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: So I want to talk about this. That was an

694
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: excellent piece that came out in Study Hole. I believe

695
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 1: it's based on some reporting in a Canadian outlet called

696
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 1: Passage and Study. Hall is a freelance journalists like group

697
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: Localists serve, but they also do some editorial work. But

698
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: it's talking about this this Israeli nonprofit or it's really

699
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: funded nonprofits based in the US and also in Israel

700
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 1: called Honest Reporting. What it is is a five oh

701
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: one c. Three And essentially what they've done is is

702
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: what Sharen describes right where they've they've found not I

703
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 1: believe mostly Palestinian reporters, perhaps also non Palestinian reporters who

704
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,959
Speaker 1: are reporting from this. I guess from what I would

705
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: described as the facts based approach to this, which is

706
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: describing what's happening as an apartheid And they've dived into

707
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:56,919
Speaker 1: these people's background, their previous tweets, their previous writing, their

708
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: other work to describe them as by and get their

709
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 1: articles taken down. And they've done this to some very

710
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: like this has happened at the Times, and this is

711
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: at a time like I know Sharin mentioned something that

712
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 1: happened in twenty eleven, but I know that in twenty ten,

713
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: the Jerusalem bureau chief of the Times had a child

714
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: serving in the idf Right. So like, you know, if

715
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: if I had a you know, if I was a

716
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: journalist and I said, yeah, you know, I actually have

717
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: a son who's in the Alexa Martis Brigade, like then

718
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: they're not going to not going to commission my piece.

719
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: But they've for instance, Hosam Salem. Have you seen Sam's work?

720
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 2: I don't know. My brain doesn't create.

721
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: I've worked with a sum before. It's a friend of mine.

722
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: He's an incredibly gifted photojournalists. People should follow him on

723
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: the places where they see photographs. He's blacklisted by the

724
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: Times based on an honest reporting probe into his quote

725
00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: unquote bias, which his photos of Gaza are some of

726
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,479
Speaker 1: the most emotive photographs of Gaza like I've ever seen.

727
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: And I work with him on a piece that will

728
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: one day become a podcast about Parkour in the Gaza Strip.

729
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: But also, yeah, Hosam is a fantastic photojournalist and absolutely

730
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: like it is. It's utterly ridiculous to have like have

731
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: him blacklisted by a major news organization, which, like, whether

732
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: we like it or not, that is where a lot

733
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: of Americans get their news. In one instance, this organization

734
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: managed to get the Toronto start to scrub all uses

735
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: of Palestine from their stories, like to include shit like

736
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: yeah like that, like they were profiling a DJ who

737
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: was Palestinian. Wow, like which I think is like incredibly illustrative,

738
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: right that, Like this is organization presents itself as fighting

739
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 1: anti Israeli bias, which I'm sure that is a thing

740
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: that exists. It fucking does not exist in the US media.

741
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm not a Palestinian person, by speak as

742
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: a person who has pitched articles about conflict in various

743
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: parts of the world, and they can tell you that

744
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: that is not a bias that I have come across,

745
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: having worked with almost every big outlet that it is

746
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: possible to work for in the US. It's not doing that.

747
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 1: It's trying to raise Palestine and Palestinian people, not only

748
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: their perspectives but their whole existence. Right, And this is

749
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: something that I hap on a lot, But I think

750
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: we should do more conflict reporting that's about people, unless

751
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: it is about numbers and battles and such like. That's

752
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: why I want to write about little girls who's surfing

753
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: Gaza and young men who do parkour, because like when

754
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: Israel bombs Gaza. It doesn't just bomb people who are

755
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: part of fatal or harmas or whatever they want to say.

756
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: They're targeting, right like the lions den or ginnymbryas whatever.

757
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: When they're bombing these places, they're also bombing children. They're

758
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 1: also bombing places where little kids want to go and

759
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: play football. They're bombing towns where little boys want to

760
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: I mean them, hospitals and schools and yeah, like the

761
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: this is where people just like you live. It's not

762
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 1: like there's a very clear desire to kind of erase

763
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: Palestinian civilians, I guess from my narrative, and it's really

764
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: important that we as journalist and as people don't allow

765
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: that to happen. I guess you can. We'll link to

766
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: this in our sources at the end of the month.

767
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: But I think it's an excellent piece. It's worth reading.

768
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:35,959
Speaker 2: Thank you parentialing that before we continue with some really

769
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 2: excellent new things. Let's take our second break and we'll

770
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 2: be right back, yes.

771
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: Way back, And I want to talk a little bit

772
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: more about like the I guess these really political context

773
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: behind the increasing aggression towards Janina and Palestini general. So

774
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,240
Speaker 1: of the one hundred and sixty five Palestinian deaths. About

775
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 1: eighty six were in the North and West Bank, mostly

776
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 1: in the areas of Janine and Nubbles, which cannot come incidentally,

777
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: are the areas where we're seeing new armed groups emerging.

778
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: Despite this, israelis ready to massively step up settlement in

779
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: the West Bank. Earlier in June, Prime Minister Benjamin then

780
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: and Yahoo ratified a policy allowing pro settler finance Minister

781
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: There's Alliell Smotridge to bypass the six dage process for

782
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 1: building settlements, effectively giving him the ability to make settlement

783
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: decisions on his own. In recent years, Israeli politicians as

784
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: settlers have become more and more open about their goals

785
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: annexing most, if not all, of the West Bank. So

786
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: March of this year, Smotridge claimed that Palestinian people were

787
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: an invention of the last century. It's probably worth taking

788
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: a moment to point out that all national identities are

789
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: inherently constructed, Like humanity did not come to earth with flags.

790
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: Those are things that came to exist in the nineteenth

791
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 1: and twentieth century. It's like, so is Israel right, We

792
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: can kind of put a date on that one.

793
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 2: So that's just so, that's like literally projecting an invention

794
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: of the last century is literally Israel whatever, Yes, the

795
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 2: state of Israel.

796
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean nations calling other nations constructed. Is the

797
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: kind of the pot calling the cow blackleg Yeah, but

798
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: insomuch as if we're going to do that, I think

799
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: is rarely throwing stones from a glasshouse.

800
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.

801
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: It's like it doesn't really fucking matter either, right, Like

802
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how long the one group of people

803
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: has had one flag, you still shouldn't fucking kill children,

804
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: which applies to anyone involved in the killing of children.

805
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: So Matrich said that there was no such thing as

806
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: a Palestinian because there is no such thing as a

807
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: Palestinian people in a speech in Paris and a memorial

808
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,760
Speaker 1: for Jack Koppa an activity it's else right wing liqud party.

809
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: Do you know who are the Palestine? He said, I'm

810
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 1: a Palestinian, going on to describe his late grandfather, who

811
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: he said was a thirteenth generation Jerusalem might as a

812
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: true Palestinian, which is somewhat Look, these people are supposed

813
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: to be contradictory, Like it's not really worth sucking pointing

814
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: this out, But like you can't simultaneously say there are

815
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 1: a Palestinians, Palestine doesn't exist. Also, I'm a Palestinian. Again

816
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: not the point. I guess he was a resident. He

817
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: is a resident one of the settlements himself. He's an

818
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: advocate for theocratic law, the segregation of maternity warts. So

819
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 1: he doesn't want Arab and Israeli women to give birth

820
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: in the same ridiculous Yeah, it's his justification for it

821
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: is like even worse, but I won't bother with that.

822
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: He's also openly homophobic, and he supports the conspiracy theory

823
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: that Yitzak Rabine was killed by Israel security agencies. All around,

824
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: top guy the Coud, Benjamin and Yahi party likes to

825
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: use names for the West Bank that you might find

826
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: in the Bible, and it's made accelerating a legal settlement

827
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: there a priority. Since it took office that Yahoo coalition

828
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: has approved seven thousand new housing units, many in the

829
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: occupied West Bank. The government also amended law to clear

830
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: the way for settlers to return to four settlements that

831
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: have previously been evacuated. Within a week of having power

832
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: to make these decisions, Motrich approved five thousand new units.

833
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: This is a great time to draw attention to one

834
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: of the most fucking infuriating paragraphs that have ever been written,

835
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: which I found in a New York Times article that

836
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: I can't believe this is real.

837
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 2: James said it to me before this, and it is crazy.

838
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: I like the century and stuff I know will make

839
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: her angry. Of course, not all West Bank settlers are

840
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: alter nationalists who believe that living in the land of

841
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: the Bible is a religious edict. Most settlers, in fact,

842
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: including hundreds of thousands of Oltra Orthodox use, move there

843
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: seeking a portable housing. I am fucking like I cannot

844
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: last it. When I got yeah, I checked out mentally.

845
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: I catapoled myself into outer space. I don't want to

846
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 1: be here anymore. That's ridiculous. I have decided to curl

847
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: up into a ball and no longer exist. Like this

848
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: is from the newspaper as well, that like Whent so

849
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 1: fucking ham on people in twenty twenty, like taking milk

850
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 1: from a target, you know, like like when you like

851
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: seeking affordable dairy products. I guess could have been an

852
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: alternative frameing of that that they didn't. They didn't go

853
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: for it. It just fucking unbelievable, Like they like the

854
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: ship that freakonomics has done to people's brains is it's

855
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: really next level. But people more people listen to our

856
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: podcasts in their podcast because we're winning in the marketplace

857
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: of ideas and so all in seven hundred and fifty

858
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 1: thousand people live in these settlements. But being a legal

859
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: under international law doesn't really mean anything unless that law

860
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: is enforced, and it really is. We spoke earlier before, right,

861
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: just like the US, which frequently violates Domesican international law

862
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: on its own border, Israel is simply not held to

863
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: account for its crimes. United Nations Special Reporteur and Palestine

864
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 1: Francisco Albernesi told Al Jazeera international law has a quote

865
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: unquote problem of enforcement. There is a problem of double

866
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: standards because clearly when it comes to Palestine, there is

867
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: a cognitive disson especially among Western countries, and reticence in

868
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: applying these coercive measures and all the prohibitions international law

869
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: efforts are Benici.

870
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 2: Said, yeah, we already mentioned how just even the phrase

871
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 2: international laws just make believe like you always hear about Israel,

872
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,720
Speaker 2: even like committing crimes against humanity, None of that even

873
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,399
Speaker 2: seems to matter when it comes to Israel because there's

874
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 2: never a repercussion.

875
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't matter anywhere that there is no direct

876
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 1: interest to capital to enforcing that law. Right, it doesn't

877
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 1: matter when young women in memm are get raped by soldiers.

878
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter when Villa Juice get burned down there,

879
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. And to grie in Ethiopian Eritrea because

880
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: there's no interest to finance capital of solving that problem.

881
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: It's not just a a Palestine things. It's the thing

882
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: all over the world. And laws are fundamentally backed up

883
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: by violence. Right, Like in America, if you get a

884
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: parking ticket and you don't pay your parking ticket and

885
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: you have to go to court, and you don't go

886
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 1: to court, eventually someone with a gun will come and

887
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: kick down your door. And like all laws are based

888
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: in violence. And there ain't no one kicking down Israel's door, right,

889
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: and no one will. And so it doesn't matter. International

890
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: law doesn't matter. It's nice and it's there. We can

891
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: point to it and say, look, we've all agreed this

892
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: is bad, but we all know it's bad. Like we

893
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: don't really need a bunch of like old men suits

894
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: to tell us it's bad. We knew it was bad.

895
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 1: What we needed to fucking make it stop, and that's

896
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: not happening.

897
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's also interesting to mention that internationally,

898
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 2: even when you get better quote unquote reporting about Palestine,

899
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: it still is not enough because it's usually about peace

900
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 2: and both sides or a conflict or whatever. So I

901
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 2: just think, I mean that also goes back to news

902
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 2: and how it's reported. But this stubborn insistence on blaming

903
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 2: both sides is reflective of a deeply flawed quote unquote

904
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: peace framework, and it has dominated the international understanding of

905
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 2: the Israel Palestine quote unquote conflict for decades. The framework

906
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 2: of peace centers on identity politics and ignores the structural

907
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 2: violence that the state perpetuates against oppressed groups and instead

908
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 2: focuses on acts of spectacular violence committed by those groups

909
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: in response to the oppression they face. And it also

910
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 2: blames them for escalating conflict and then uses it to

911
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 2: justify the repressive violence by the more powerful forces. To

912
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 2: go back to New York Times briefly, many of the

913
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 2: Times editorials over the last thirty years since the advent

914
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 2: of the Oslo Accords have been steeped in the peace framework.

915
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 2: They treat Israelis and Palestinians as having equal power when

916
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 2: they clearly don't. They praise Israel for minor adjustments to

917
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 2: its daily structural violence against Palestinians, but in the same

918
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: breath they scold Palestinian leaders and society for acts of

919
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,720
Speaker 2: violence done in turn. And the word conflict is also

920
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: problematic in and of itself, because Palestine isn't some conflict

921
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 2: or problem for Israel to sort out. It's a cause

922
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 2: for everyone to fight for. Since nineteen forty eight, the

923
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 2: Israeli state has prevented Palestinians from living in their homeland

924
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 2: with freedom and dignity, whether it's by banning refugees from

925
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 2: returning to their homes, or discriminating against Palestinian citizens inside Israel,

926
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 2: or keeping millions of Palestinians under military occupation. If there

927
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 2: is a problem to be solved, that problem is the

928
00:54:55,239 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 2: regime itself. But this fact of bias and shitty reporting

929
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 2: and the fact that the truth is not out there,

930
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 2: that fact seems to have eluded the Times editorial board

931
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 2: because rather than recognize the systemic violence, discrimination, and colonization

932
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 2: perpetuated by Israel against Palestinians, the board blames quote unquote

933
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:24,760
Speaker 2: both sides for a vastly asymmetric situation. This both sides

934
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 2: ism may give the appearance of balance, but it does

935
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 2: not reflect the reality in which Israel holds almost total political, economic,

936
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: and military power over the lives of every Palestinian in

937
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 2: a system that growing numbers of scholars, human rights groups,

938
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,839
Speaker 2: and legal experts are defining as apartheid. But I do

939
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 2: hope some of this was at least helpful, and I

940
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 2: mean will probably be back to do the same kind

941
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 2: of thing soon because Israel is relentless and stupid and

942
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 2: I hate it. So until then, fuck the IDF and

943
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 2: have a nice day.

944
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,720
Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

945
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

946
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 2: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

947
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

948
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 2: find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at

949
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 2: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.