Speaker 1: Hey, folks, He's won three Super Bowls and you probably
Speaker 1: didn't know his name. He gave one commencement speech at
Speaker 1: a tiny college in Kansas, and now everybody is talking
Speaker 1: about him. Welcome, folks to this episode of Amy and TJ,
Speaker 1: a special episode that we didn't plan on doing, but
Speaker 1: robes a lot of conversation privately here was prompted by
Speaker 1: what we're now seeing, as I guess you could call
Speaker 1: it backlash for the speech that Harrison Butker of the
Speaker 1: Kansas City Chiefs gave at a college in Kansas.
Speaker 2: That's right. I first saw some of the noise the
Speaker 2: reaction to his speech yesterday and went on to actually
Speaker 2: read the transcript under you actually watched the speech. I
Speaker 2: watched some of it to see what all of the
Speaker 2: fuss was about. But I came to you and my
Speaker 2: jaw dropped. I was and initially felt much of what
Speaker 2: I'm seeing A lot of women felt when they heard
Speaker 2: or read what he said. To sum it up, he
Speaker 2: said a lot in his speech to the graduating class
Speaker 2: giving the commencement speech there over the weekend.
Speaker 1: And context though who he was giving this.
Speaker 2: He was giving the speech to the graduating class of
Speaker 2: Benedictine College. It is a conservative Catholic college in the Midwest,
Speaker 2: very close to where I spent my formative years in Missouri,
Speaker 2: going and attending Catholic schools. I want to at least
Speaker 2: put this out there. I am no longer a practicing Catholic,
Speaker 2: but I was raised in the Catholic faith in the Midwest.
Speaker 2: My parents are still devout Catholics, as is much of
Speaker 2: my family. So this was all a very interesting speech
Speaker 2: that I did take offense to. Interestingly, TJ, you had
Speaker 2: a little bit of a different reaction initially before you
Speaker 2: kind of got into the details of the story.
Speaker 1: Well, I saw someone's reaction to what we often do,
Speaker 1: right with social media and things that can become hot
Speaker 1: button issues and clickable, I suppose. So I saw a
Speaker 1: lot of the reaction I was reading about his speech
Speaker 1: before I actually saw the speech, and once I saw
Speaker 1: the speech and got a little more context, not in
Speaker 1: some agreement one way or another with anything he said,
Speaker 1: but rather where he was coming from, what he was saying,
Speaker 1: why he was saying, and how personally it was to
Speaker 1: him and the audience he was talking to. It changed
Speaker 1: a little. It didn't change what he said, but it
Speaker 1: changed some of the I guess some of the things
Speaker 1: I read, I believe were meant to be a little
Speaker 1: more clickable if you will. And this, you know, it
Speaker 1: always drives me crazy. And things like this happened. Everybody
Speaker 1: just here, we go, go to our respective corners, let's
Speaker 1: come out, let's fight, and then let's go back to
Speaker 1: our corners. And nobody learned anything, and nobody got anywhere.
Speaker 1: And this is just another opportunity I thought, to have
Speaker 1: a better and a broader conversation and more understanding about
Speaker 1: what exactly he said, but also about the church and
Speaker 1: how many other people might feel the way he does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there were a couple of groups who were
Speaker 2: offended by what he said, a lot of especially working women,
Speaker 2: I would say, and members of the LGBTQ community as well.
Speaker 2: So there were there were two things to address. But
Speaker 2: I'll start with the women just because, as again, I
Speaker 2: was raised in the Catholic faith and am a working woman.
Speaker 2: So it's an interesting position to be in.
Speaker 1: And it's fair to say, right, there was a lot
Speaker 1: in there. I mean, he went after President Biden on abortions.
Speaker 1: He threw in diversity, equity and inclusion, a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff was in there, But is it fair to say
Speaker 1: I think I felt that way that the thing that
Speaker 1: most people were worked up about or writing about had
Speaker 1: to do with his comments about women and being a homemaker.
Speaker 1: Is the word he Yes, would you say that's the
Speaker 1: thing that got most correct?
Speaker 2: Yes? And then and then I actually went into a
Speaker 2: deep dive as you did as well this morning, because
Speaker 2: even though I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school
Speaker 2: in the Midwest, I still was a little bit unclear
Speaker 2: about where the Catholic Church officially stands on women working
Speaker 2: outside of the home. And I feel like I got
Speaker 2: some clarity. Although there's always you can read anything anyway
Speaker 2: that you'd like. People take the Bible and things that
Speaker 2: Pope say, you know, literally, and sometimes people take it
Speaker 2: to fit the context they want it to, so it's
Speaker 2: always up for interpretation. I'll put that out there. But
Speaker 2: the biggest thing that I took offense to look, he's
Speaker 2: talking to a bunch of men and women who have
Speaker 2: just spent four years at university and are graduating, And
Speaker 2: I mean I encourage everyone to go and listen to
Speaker 2: the speech or at least read the transcript of the
Speaker 2: speech as well, because this is just a summation of
Speaker 2: a few parts. But he he spoke to the women
Speaker 2: in the in the room specifically saying I want to
Speaker 2: speak to you directly, he says, and I'm gonna quote
Speaker 2: him here because I think it is you, the women
Speaker 2: who have had the most diabolical lies told to you.
Speaker 2: How many of you are sitting here now about to
Speaker 2: cross the stage and are thinking about all of the
Speaker 2: promotions and titles you're going to get in your career.
Speaker 2: He goes on to say, some of you may go
Speaker 2: on to lead successful careers in the world, but I
Speaker 2: would venture to guess that the majority of you are
Speaker 2: most excited about your marriage and the children you will
Speaker 2: bring into this world.
Speaker 1: He goes going to stop, Yes, go ahead, and now,
Speaker 1: so right there, where does what in that I don't
Speaker 1: want to completely break down word for word here too much,
Speaker 1: but in what he's saying there, you're you said you're offended.
Speaker 1: So the offense in that I'm aware for you.
Speaker 2: So yes, I understand the audience. And by the way,
Speaker 2: he received a standing ovation at the end of this speech,
Speaker 2: we should point that out. You could say he knew
Speaker 2: his audience. This was a conservative Catholic university. But I
Speaker 2: guess I also just have initially an issue with a
Speaker 2: man telling women saying I would venture to guess that
Speaker 2: the majority of you. I feel like that's a very
Speaker 2: presumptive way to start any sentence, and then to go
Speaker 2: on to say something about, even though you just spent
Speaker 2: four years educating yourself and getting your career, you're more
Speaker 2: excited about being a wife and a mother. I think
Speaker 2: that's incredibly presumptive, and that therein lies some of the offense.
Speaker 1: Now if I'm not the weeds, but not even semantics,
Speaker 1: but words matter. But I'm looking at this, the quote
Speaker 1: you just read to everybody. If he would have changed
Speaker 1: that language that said, I would venture to guess that
Speaker 1: the majority of you are most excited about your marriage
Speaker 1: and the children you'll bring into the world. If he
Speaker 1: would have said, but I bet some of you are
Speaker 1: most excited, I would guess a few of you. If
Speaker 1: he would have changed that to not a presumption that
Speaker 1: I know what most women in this room are thinking.
Speaker 1: Would that have made a difference, It.
Speaker 2: Would have softened it. But I think you are stepping
Speaker 2: into dangerous territory when you are presuming, especially that the
Speaker 2: majority of a sex you don't know anything about truly
Speaker 2: to be and what it is to be a woman.
Speaker 2: I think that immediately raises eyebrows and makes people feel like, wait,
Speaker 2: who are you to speak for us?
Speaker 1: That is, and I'll go back on a lot of
Speaker 1: emphasis is put on him, an attention on him, but
Speaker 1: he's speaking to an audience like you said. That gave
Speaker 1: him a standing ovation at the end, and he was
Speaker 1: not booed, nobody walked out. There was no protest when
Speaker 1: he said this. Can we venture to say that this idea,
Speaker 1: that line, that sentence is something that a lot of
Speaker 1: people in that room, and maybe a lot of people
Speaker 1: outside of that room in the Catholic faith would completely
Speaker 1: agree with.
Speaker 2: There are people inside and outside of the Catholic faith
Speaker 2: who would agree with that. I'm sure, and I'm not
Speaker 2: here to say that it's wrong to be excited about
Speaker 2: those things or for that to be the thing you
Speaker 2: want to do after getting a college education or foregoing
Speaker 2: an education, becoming a wife and a mother. I have
Speaker 2: no issue with that at all. I mean, my mother
Speaker 2: herself was a wife and a mother before getting educated.
Speaker 2: Waited until we went back to school to get educated,
Speaker 2: and waited until we were well on our way before
Speaker 2: she became a teacher. So you know, I applaud all
Speaker 2: the women out there who are able to be able
Speaker 2: to make that decision. And that's a clear distinction, because
Speaker 2: so many women don't have the choice to be homemakers
Speaker 2: or to not enter the workforce for financial reasons. So
Speaker 2: you know, there's a whole group of women who I'm
Speaker 2: sure feel very upset about the fact that somehow it's
Speaker 2: a choice. It's not always a choice. I think that's
Speaker 2: a very clear distinction to make. But also I just
Speaker 2: want to say, being raised in the Catholic Church, in
Speaker 2: a very conservative Catholic school in the Midwest, I never
Speaker 2: once ever felt or heard anyone, no priest, no, certainly
Speaker 2: not my parents, suggest that at my main vocation in life,
Speaker 2: my main purpose in life was to become a wife
Speaker 2: and a mother and that would be me serving the church.
Speaker 2: I never ever heard that. Now, I will also just
Speaker 2: say this because I want to be fully transparent. One
Speaker 2: of the reasons, and I would say the main reason
Speaker 2: that I felt I just didn't feel comfortable in the
Speaker 2: Catholic Church and I ultimately left the Catholic Church was
Speaker 2: because of many of their stances on women's reproductive rights.
Speaker 2: So I don't agree with the Church's stance on much
Speaker 2: to do with women, but I will firmly say that
Speaker 2: I never felt like there was not just a push
Speaker 2: for me to not work, but even you know, a
Speaker 2: duty of me not to work outside of the home.
Speaker 1: But can that also be not women aren't allowed to
Speaker 1: be priests? This idea here of the vocation there is
Speaker 1: a sacrament right as a vocation is called. It's a
Speaker 1: vocation of marriage in the Catholic Church, is it not? Yes?
Speaker 2: No, And I have I have completed all the sacraments
Speaker 2: through marriage. And both of my daughters, by the way,
Speaker 2: have gone through Catholic school, Catholic upbringing, and have completed
Speaker 2: all of their sacraments through confirmation.
Speaker 1: So I'm getting in what I'm sticking with this this
Speaker 1: quote here, the idea that someone in the Catholic Church
Speaker 1: who is making a a devout Catholic who is making
Speaker 1: a speech to a conservative Catholic school saying something like
Speaker 1: this isn't far fetched? Is it? For me? It was
Speaker 1: to that that guy at that school making that speech
Speaker 1: is not far fetched for us on the outside potentially,
Speaker 1: but for his audience, and they invited him in this.
Speaker 1: This didn't come out of left field, is what I'm
Speaker 1: saying to this audience.
Speaker 2: Yep, No, I hear you and I and to your point, yes,
Speaker 2: I don't know that school intimately, obviously, I just know
Speaker 2: that I have had the experience of being in a
Speaker 2: conservative Catholic educational system and those points were never made.
Speaker 2: No one ever said anything like that. So this is
Speaker 2: the first time I've ever heard that. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: that this isn't in line with what this school teaches,
Speaker 2: but I have I personally and I've had the experience
Speaker 2: of being in a conservative Catholic educational system. I have
Speaker 2: never heard anyone say anything like that.
Speaker 1: About the idea of being excited about being married and
Speaker 1: having children. Because I'm just looking at his wowing.
Speaker 2: A career and being more excited about that.
Speaker 1: I don't want to put words in his mouth. Where
Speaker 1: did you see him say for tell them to forego
Speaker 1: a career. This is one of the things I always get.
Speaker 1: Do you know this, because we dealt with a lot
Speaker 1: of people.
Speaker 2: May not have directly said it, TJ, but he certainly
Speaker 2: indirectly said it because he then talked about his wife
Speaker 2: giving up her career to be a wife and a
Speaker 2: mother and to support him so to be his wife,
Speaker 2: to be their children's mother. And he then went on
Speaker 2: to say, if she has any regrets on her decision,
Speaker 2: if you're asking that, she would laugh out loud without
Speaker 2: hesitation and say heck no. So he was certainly applying,
Speaker 2: and I will say this. He also said that women
Speaker 2: and he was saying that could be much happier doing
Speaker 2: this than being in the workplace. I'm just saying again,
Speaker 2: he is taking something that he has experienced that a
Speaker 2: lot of people have experienced. And I'm not saying that
Speaker 2: that isn't true, but to be saying this to a
Speaker 2: group of women who have just spent four years preparing
Speaker 2: to be in the workforce potentially or at least to
Speaker 2: be educated, to have the opportunity to to say, you
Speaker 2: could be so much happier if you disregard the outside noise.
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming he's referring to the media and to
Speaker 2: liberals in the world, because he does reference them throughout
Speaker 2: this speech to move closer to God's will, implying that
Speaker 2: God's will is for women to be wives and mothers,
Speaker 2: and so that is where the offense or that's where
Speaker 2: the rub lies. Therein lies the roub. I guess the phrase,
Speaker 2: but that is where I think a lot of women
Speaker 2: it took issue.
Speaker 1: Well. I would encourage everybody to not even just read it,
Speaker 1: if you greet it, if you get a chance, but
Speaker 1: I encourage you to actually listen to it. And again
Speaker 1: there's there's everybody can disagree about the position of or
Speaker 1: anybody who takes a position that women should be in
Speaker 1: the home. That's silly, that's outdated, that's not even in
Speaker 1: existence necessarily, or shouldn't be something we should talk about
Speaker 1: in a serious manner. Quite frankly, I just in this
Speaker 1: conversation where it gets it looks like everybody's dumping on
Speaker 1: this guy. And I was trying to understand as a
Speaker 1: whole the stance of the people in that room, of Catholics,
Speaker 1: of Catholicism, of the religion, and what it actually says.
Speaker 1: And in listening to him, you can infer or jump
Speaker 1: to a conclusion. But I in him talking about his
Speaker 1: experience gives an impression and why isn't that okay right
Speaker 1: if his experience was as such? And the rest I
Speaker 1: don't know if you have there as a part of
Speaker 1: the quote you gave about marriage and children you bring
Speaker 1: into this world. Quote he says, I can tell you
Speaker 1: that my beautiful wife, Isabelle, would be the first to
Speaker 1: say that her life truly started when she began living
Speaker 1: her vocation as a wife and as a mother. I'm
Speaker 1: on stage today enable to be the man I am
Speaker 1: because I have a wife who leans into her vocation.
Speaker 1: I'm beyond blessed with the many talents God has given me.
Speaker 1: But I cannot it cannot be overstated that all of
Speaker 1: my success is made possible because of a girl I
Speaker 1: met in band class back in middle school and would
Speaker 1: convert to the faith, become my wife, and embrace one
Speaker 1: of the most important titles of all homemaker. Now getting
Speaker 1: through that quote, he was tearing up and got emotional.
Speaker 1: After he made that quote, he got what I believe
Speaker 1: was the only mid speech applause, and it went on
Speaker 1: for or ten fifteen twenty seconds on that line in
Speaker 1: that audience. Now that quote, do you also take issue
Speaker 1: with him? He's explaining his situation, what his experience has
Speaker 1: been in the vocation of marriage.
Speaker 2: So I would say this, first of all, he has
Speaker 2: every right to say what he feels, and there are
Speaker 2: certainly plenty of people who want to go back to
Speaker 2: that way of life. That and the reason why the.
Speaker 1: Minority aren't they those people? We have to say that I.
Speaker 2: Think so, I believe so I wouldn't. I wouldn't want
Speaker 2: to speak to just how many people feel that way.
Speaker 2: But I can tell you how I feel. Women have
Speaker 2: spent the last century fighting for rights not to have
Speaker 2: a choice. We've spent, you know, since the beginning of
Speaker 2: history our lives as women on this planet in subservance
Speaker 2: to men. We didn't have any rights. We couldn't own property,
Speaker 2: we couldn't get educated, we had no opportunity beyond being
Speaker 2: a mother and a wife. And so all of the
Speaker 2: women who have fought for women's rights, from education to
Speaker 2: opportunity to equal pay, all of that to hear a
Speaker 2: man say that he gets to be the man he
Speaker 2: wants to be because the woman is sacrificing, because the
Speaker 2: woman is subservient, because the woman is foregoing any professional
Speaker 2: career or aspiration she may have to serve him so
Speaker 2: that he can be the man he needs to be.
Speaker 2: He also invited men to lean into their masculinity. So
Speaker 2: I just think that's why you know, you've spent all
Speaker 2: this time trying to have But that's what it invokes.
Speaker 2: It invokes that feeling, and that's why there's a motion
Speaker 2: attached to it.
Speaker 1: That's why I say that it invokes a feeling. But
Speaker 1: I think, and I didn't want to do this here,
Speaker 1: but there's so much context, And I say context, we're
Speaker 1: paraphrasing some of the direct things he said and jump
Speaker 1: to conclusions about what he said. I don't want to
Speaker 1: do that. You can have an opinion about what he said,
Speaker 1: but to us to assign how he feels and what
Speaker 1: he's telling everybody else based on his experience, I think,
Speaker 1: I just I want to be careful about going too
Speaker 1: far there. Yes he said it, but some of the
Speaker 1: idea that he is saying you need to be subservient,
Speaker 1: you can't. He's talking to a graduating educated people who,
Speaker 1: like you said, Now, the women in that audience do
Speaker 1: have a choice. They have a choice about the vocation
Speaker 1: of marriage, and they have a choice in education and
Speaker 1: what they want to do because they just got it.
Speaker 2: So I.
Speaker 1: Want and I'm curious about a wider view that Catholics
Speaker 1: have about this this idea and again, it's a vocation
Speaker 1: of marriage, it actually is a thing that's assigned in
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. That's it is your role, your job,
Speaker 1: your duty, both though, But I just I just want
Speaker 1: to hesitate to jump to a conclusion about what I
Speaker 1: think is in his heart versus what he said.
Speaker 2: Oh, and I think he was extremely genuine and I
Speaker 2: think what he is saying works for him and his
Speaker 2: wife and his family in a beautiful way. And I
Speaker 2: don't fault them for that. I think that's incredible. I
Speaker 2: think to each his own in terms of what is
Speaker 2: good for you and your family and how you view
Speaker 2: your faith.
Speaker 1: But I'm just not full stop right now because.
Speaker 2: He's encouraging other women, and I just feel like he
Speaker 2: was absolutely encouraging other women and implying that they would
Speaker 2: be happier if they leaned in on that vocation rather
Speaker 2: than pursue a career outside that.
Speaker 1: I just didn't see him say that anywhere. I felt that,
Speaker 1: and nowhere did I see him make that statement that
Speaker 1: you need to do this, do not go to work.
Speaker 2: He didn't say that, but he was encouraging.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sorry, you just said it, so I just
Speaker 1: want to make sure we're clear on that. You said.
Speaker 1: He's encouraging them not to work and to actually just
Speaker 1: go be homemakers.
Speaker 2: He was encouraging them to do that by saying they
Speaker 2: would be happier if they did that.
Speaker 1: Again, we need to go through and find the direct quote.
Speaker 1: I just I don't want to assign that to him,
Speaker 1: and now here in this space give people an impression.
Speaker 1: So I keep saying, go listen to it for yourselves,
Speaker 1: or go read it for yourself.
Speaker 2: If not that, then TJ, what would you believe his
Speaker 2: intent was?
Speaker 1: He knew his audience, and I do think he was
Speaker 1: speaking from the heart, but also his intent if we
Speaker 1: go to that being the intent is he speaking to
Speaker 1: an audience that is welcoming that message. Meaning We've been
Speaker 1: in Catholic school here for the past four years, a
Speaker 1: conservative Catholic school. We've heard a lot of teachings about
Speaker 1: the vocation of marriage and Saint Peter's saying that women
Speaker 1: are the weaker vessel, right, So that might be in
Speaker 1: their minds. They might be struggling with that idea. What
Speaker 1: do I do. I want to be a good Catholic,
Speaker 1: I want to be a successful so I don't know
Speaker 1: that part and how welcoming it is for that audience
Speaker 1: to hear. Ah it worked for him. Ah, it worked
Speaker 1: for them. Oh it's okay for me to be this way.
Speaker 1: Oh it's okay for me to express myself. Because he's
Speaker 1: doing so, he's expressing something you could absolutely have issue with, right.
Speaker 1: I am just trying to get more of an understanding
Speaker 1: of his relationship to the people in that room.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, And to this, I will say this, and
Speaker 2: I think this is true for any institution, especially a
Speaker 2: religious institution. There are factions within churches. So the Catholic
Speaker 2: Church is not just one unified church, even though I
Speaker 2: know we're all under the Pope's umbrella, but you've got
Speaker 2: the conservative faction. And then he even points out, as
Speaker 2: you mentioned Joe Biden being a Catholic and yet supporting
Speaker 2: abortion rights. He thought that was ludicrous. And you know,
Speaker 2: I will argue that, you know, there are a lot
Speaker 2: of phrases for Catholics, cafeteria Catholics, where you pick what
Speaker 2: you like. But the point being is if you're all unified,
Speaker 2: you know, to try and be better people. I just
Speaker 2: I am I struggle with and I think probably a
Speaker 2: lot of and I want to say a former Catholic,
Speaker 2: so I don't want to put myself in that pool.
Speaker 2: But a lot of Catholics get frustrated. They want there
Speaker 2: to be more of a unified vision, and I think
Speaker 2: it is confusing and different popes have different ways of
Speaker 2: looking at it. I actually looked up some of what
Speaker 2: religious Catholic leaders have said about women working outside of
Speaker 2: the church, and I actually I loved reading a little
Speaker 2: bit of what Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger spoke about because he said,
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote him here, women who freely desire
Speaker 2: will be able to devote the totality of their time
Speaker 2: to the work of the household without being stigmatized by
Speaker 2: society or penalized financially of aka the homemaker, while those
Speaker 2: who wish also to engage in other work may be
Speaker 2: able to do so with an appropriate work schedule and
Speaker 2: not have to choose between relinquishing their family life or
Speaker 2: enduring continual stress with negative consequences for one's own equilibrium
Speaker 2: and the harmony of the family. And I also like
Speaker 2: he went on to say talking about the genius of women,
Speaker 2: and he said that women should be present in the
Speaker 2: world of work and in the organization of society, and
Speaker 2: that women should have access to positions of responsibility which
Speaker 2: allow them to inspire the policies of nations and to
Speaker 2: promote innovative solutions to economic and social problems. But they
Speaker 2: all make the caveat that it somehow, any of that
Speaker 2: work is in the detriment or somehow you know, is
Speaker 2: a negative to the family life. Then the woman needs
Speaker 2: to choose her family over work. And so that has
Speaker 2: been an absolute current, like a consensus that women can
Speaker 2: work unless it affects the family.
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose any woman who makes that choice for
Speaker 1: herself no one should take issue with. But if anyone,
Speaker 1: any religious leader, is encouraging her to do so, there
Speaker 1: in lies the problem.
Speaker 2: Yes, true, yeah, yes, I mean well, yeah, the.
Speaker 1: Choice itself is not is just the woman makes the choice.
Speaker 2: That's correct. But and I do think there is an
Speaker 2: emphasis though that it is a woman's responsibility to make
Speaker 2: sure her children and her family are good, basically in
Speaker 2: addition to working outside of the home. But I also
Speaker 2: love something else that the Catholic I want to try
Speaker 2: to read something. It was something really cool about the
Speaker 2: reference in the in the Bible to me. Sorry, I
Speaker 2: had something I wanted to bring it up, and maybe
Speaker 2: I thought it was it was basically not referencing that
Speaker 2: it was a woman's responsibility or a mother's responsibility, but
Speaker 2: it was a parent's parents responsibility. So there was no
Speaker 2: distinguishing between women and men. That it was this was
Speaker 2: in the this was in the Catholic doctrine, that it
Speaker 2: wasn't specifically women, that it was parents. And I mean,
Speaker 2: I think that's what I would argue most women, and
Speaker 2: I think a lot of men, most men believe as
Speaker 2: well that this is a shared responsibility, isn't solely based
Speaker 2: on the shoulder of women.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that same Bible we speak of says that husbands,
Speaker 1: in the same way be considerate as you live with
Speaker 1: your wives and treat them with respect as the weaker
Speaker 1: partner and as airs with you of the gracious gift
Speaker 1: of life. That's Saint Peter, right, So you can there's
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff later throughout there, but all this
Speaker 1: stuff was written at different times. We all know there
Speaker 1: is and should be equality these days. If you choose
Speaker 1: to be only a working woman, or we want to
Speaker 1: be a working mom, you can just be a mom.
Speaker 1: Everybody can make that call. But if that line the
Speaker 1: first quote you gave had been delivered to that audience
Speaker 1: by a woman. Would you feel differently about this? Would
Speaker 1: anybody be talking about.
Speaker 2: Oh, it would be a little different, but I think
Speaker 2: people would still be talking about it.
Speaker 1: This would make the same headlines, He would get the
Speaker 1: same back.
Speaker 2: It would not make the same headline if.
Speaker 1: A woman got up then said, I would venture to
Speaker 1: guess the majority of you are most excited about your
Speaker 1: marriage and the children you will bring into this world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think it would not have the same
Speaker 2: fever pitch for sure. And didn't you say, by the way,
Speaker 2: this is interesting and speaking to a point you made
Speaker 2: when we were talking about this before the podcast, about
Speaker 2: the role of Benedictine College and what they knew was
Speaker 2: going to be said and what they probably knew what
Speaker 2: they were getting when they asked him to speak. He
Speaker 2: gave a similar commencement address at Georgia Tech, his alma mater, correct,
Speaker 2: and no one picked up on it.
Speaker 1: It wasn't as long and he didn't go as hard,
Speaker 1: but he made some of the same some of the
Speaker 1: same claims. I think he even stopped or paused in
Speaker 1: that one kind of tongue and she kind of smiled
Speaker 1: a little bit where he said I'm going to say
Speaker 1: something here about your future or something you need to
Speaker 1: do to be successful. He said, get married, had a family.
Speaker 1: He said this to the graduating class of Georgia Tech,
Speaker 1: so it's not it was a shorter speech and didn't
Speaker 1: get much attention. But yeah, this is something he has
Speaker 1: been talking about for a while.
Speaker 2: And it's also interesting. I just want to point out
Speaker 2: his mother, his own mom has worked outside of the
Speaker 2: workplace in a very distinguished way. In fact, his mom Elizabeth,
Speaker 2: but she's a medical physicist in the Department of Radiation
Speaker 2: Oncology at the Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta.
Speaker 2: They're in Georgia, so she is and was a working mom.
Speaker 2: So it's an interesting I would be really curious to
Speaker 2: see what she has to say. And she may be
Speaker 2: in full support of her son and agree with everything
Speaker 2: he said, but it is an interesting position to find
Speaker 2: that she not only worked outside of the home, but
Speaker 2: you know, in a very very elevated, dedicated way.
Speaker 1: Well, we don't want to go as far as we're not.
Speaker 1: Don't suggesting he's anti women working.
Speaker 2: I don't know what he is. I mean, it just
Speaker 2: it felt. Look, here's the deal. I will say this,
Speaker 2: I think women who choose, And by the way, when
Speaker 2: I say choose, not everybody has a choice, but the
Speaker 2: women who have the incredible ability to choose not to
Speaker 2: work for whatever reason, they're financially secure, because of their husbands,
Speaker 2: or for whatever reason, they don't have to work outside
Speaker 2: of the home, which is a very important caveat because
Speaker 2: that and I know everyone says this and it sounds
Speaker 2: even cliche, but my god, working at home as a
Speaker 2: mother and a wife is absolutely the hardest job any
Speaker 2: woman could undertake. It is thankless, it is selfless, it
Speaker 2: is it never stops. You're on call twenty four to seven.
Speaker 2: And my hat go. My hat's off to any woman
Speaker 2: who chooses that, because to me, that is incredibly difficult
Speaker 2: and incredibly beautiful and something to be proud of. So love,
Speaker 2: I would have loved the idea, if you know, I'm
Speaker 2: all about those women need more support. Those women need
Speaker 2: to feel the love and the support from not only
Speaker 2: their families, their husbands, but their communities and this world. Frankly,
Speaker 2: that their jobs are important, probably the most important there
Speaker 2: is to have. So I want to make that very
Speaker 2: clear that I feel that way, and I think those
Speaker 2: women need to have more support. So if he could
Speaker 2: have freezed it in a way where it just felt
Speaker 2: more supportive, unless you'll be happier if dot dot dot
Speaker 2: at a commencement address.
Speaker 1: Isn't that But if he made the commencement address at
Speaker 1: the University of Arkansas, it would have been received differently.
Speaker 2: It would have.
Speaker 1: But he's making it to a place that he knows
Speaker 1: is and maybe that's why he didn't go as hard
Speaker 1: at Georgia Tech because it's.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure why.
Speaker 1: But the more connected people are to one another, the
Speaker 1: more they feel alone. He said. I'm not sure the
Speaker 1: root of this, but at least I can offer one
Speaker 1: controversial antidote that I think though that I believe will
Speaker 1: have a lasting impact on generations to come get married
Speaker 1: and start a family. That's his quote from the Georgia
Speaker 1: Tech speech. Wow, right, the techn engineer sitting out there
Speaker 1: and he's encouraging them to do so. That tells you
Speaker 1: he really sees in his life the importance of family
Speaker 1: and marriage. He didn't go as far as with really
Speaker 1: in that speech, but he was waiting on a conservative
Speaker 1: Christian college to call, and he led loose on this
Speaker 1: one a little bit. But at the same time, but
Speaker 1: that idea is not crazy, It's not far fetched. Like
Speaker 1: you said, you just had issue with.
Speaker 2: His tone, his tone, his message. And you know, he
Speaker 2: does not speak for all Catholics. I know that for sure,
Speaker 2: and he certainly doesn't speak for women, and I think
Speaker 2: that was a big part of the problem. But I
Speaker 2: did appreciate you know, it's funny I brought this to you.
Speaker 2: I had a very emotional reaction. Initially, I was outraged.
Speaker 2: I actually felt it like in my chest it tightened.
Speaker 2: I actually felt like emotional, like I felt like I
Speaker 2: wanted to cry when I read what he said. And
Speaker 2: then you're very measured and said, why is everybody jumping
Speaker 2: on this guy? You know? And so it was cool
Speaker 2: to hear your take on it from the perspective of
Speaker 2: everyone just wants to jump on the messenger, make them
Speaker 2: into villains, make them into bad guys, ask for an apology,
Speaker 2: ask for I know. The NFL did respond, yeah.
Speaker 1: Just that they don't agree that his views aren't in
Speaker 1: line with the nfls.
Speaker 2: And speaking to that, I think a lot of that
Speaker 2: was in reaction to what he said about Pride month.
Speaker 2: You have the quote right, because you know he wasn't
Speaker 2: just women. That was probably the biggest headline, but he
Speaker 2: also made It was a very quick one line, but
Speaker 2: it certainly packed a punch.
Speaker 1: And it seemed done necessary. It was the one part
Speaker 1: of the that seemed a little mean, seemed a little unnecessary. Again,
Speaker 1: sorry to assign mean to it, but that was the
Speaker 1: one thing I mean made like you said you talked
Speaker 1: about He talked about Biden and some political.
Speaker 2: Stocks, abortion, IVF sarrogacy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but this line, he said, I'm saying all this here.
Speaker 1: He was hoping what he said wouldn't be met with anger,
Speaker 1: but instead met with excitement and pride. Not the deadly
Speaker 1: sin sort of pride that has an entire month dedicated
Speaker 1: to it, but the true God centered pride that is
Speaker 1: cooperating with that d D DA DA. So it was almost
Speaker 1: a line that wasn't necessary. He just used the word
Speaker 1: pride and took an opportunity to take a shot at
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ plus community in Pride Month. I thought that
Speaker 1: was a little that was a little harsh.
Speaker 2: Here's my big issue. Look, there are a lot of
Speaker 2: amazing Christians and Catholics out there. I would say most
Speaker 2: of them are, but The problem is when you take
Speaker 2: religion and then you're divisive with it. I have an
Speaker 2: issue with that. I mean, I just the whole What
Speaker 2: would Jesus do? What would Jesus say? I do not
Speaker 2: believe Jesus would have said any of those things. And
Speaker 2: I think that is the frustrating thing for me to
Speaker 2: see someone. And he has absolutely entitled to his opinion,
Speaker 2: but I just don't think that's in this spirit of Christianity.
Speaker 2: That's my personal belief and judgment. There's no place for
Speaker 2: that in a commencement address. And that's absolutely what he did.
Speaker 2: And he chose those words. You can tell he is
Speaker 2: an incredibly intelligent human being, the words he chose, how
Speaker 2: he spoke. He is a thoughtful, introspective, intelligent person. So
Speaker 2: he chose those words carefully and he chose to say them.
Speaker 2: And so yes, people get to react based on that.
Speaker 2: This wasn't something that he said offhanded, a quick remark
Speaker 2: and ad lib something he didn't think through or out.
Speaker 2: He wrote this down and he said it deliberately with
Speaker 2: a lot of intention.
Speaker 1: And my issue again, I was re You told me
Speaker 1: about it, and you were fired up about it last night,
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to I had no reaction because
Speaker 1: based on what you were telling me and based on headlines,
Speaker 1: I just didn't have a reaction to it. See why
Speaker 1: people reacted, But so much of what I saw didn't
Speaker 1: involve thought. It didn't involve a conversation, It didn't involve
Speaker 1: any type of grace or an attempt to understand. It
Speaker 1: was the same old stuff we do in this country
Speaker 1: when things like this come up. This is an opportunity
Speaker 1: for me. I learned a lot about Catholicism today because
Speaker 1: of this guy, by looking it up and reading and researching.
Speaker 1: But my issue was that why are we Why are
Speaker 1: we not having a larger conversation or trying to get
Speaker 1: some kind of an understanding to why a guy that
Speaker 1: everybody is trying to cancel on social media, people even
Speaker 1: calling for him to be let go by the Kansas
Speaker 1: City chiefs. That where we're attacking this guy, then why
Speaker 1: is there not some thought or criticism or conversation to
Speaker 1: the college, to Catholicism, to the folks who invited him,
Speaker 1: to the folks who I don't remember seeing a single
Speaker 1: person sitting down at the end, and he got that ovation.
Speaker 1: So something's going on. I'm trying to understand that better.
Speaker 1: I understand, and it's unfortunate what happens on social media
Speaker 1: that I get because we've been through it, and it's hate, hate,
Speaker 1: hate that. So we might be missing an opportunity to
Speaker 1: actually have a learn a little something about each other,
Speaker 1: for men and women to have a better conversation, for
Speaker 1: religious folks to have a better conversation.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: And it just sucked that was getting a.
Speaker 2: Little lost well, you know, and I appreciate that measured response,
Speaker 2: and thatiate Your immediate response was to learn more. Your
Speaker 2: immediate response was to first of all, watch and read
Speaker 2: it all, but then to actually dig in and figure
Speaker 2: out where he was coming from. And I think that
Speaker 2: is something that the majority people do not do. And
Speaker 2: I will admit initially, I mean, I do have the
Speaker 2: background of I don't believe me, I don't know everything
Speaker 2: far from it where it comes to the Catholic Church,
Speaker 2: but I did have, you know, a fairly intimate understanding
Speaker 2: of my experience in the Catholic Church. So it was
Speaker 2: just I had a very visceral emotional reaction as a
Speaker 2: former Catholic and a woman, But it was I actually
Speaker 2: appreciate your response because it wasn't what I thought you
Speaker 2: would respond with, and I respect it because I feel
Speaker 2: like if more of us can react with an open
Speaker 2: mind and a willingness to dig in a little bit
Speaker 2: deeper and to take the emotional part of it and
Speaker 2: just put it aside for a little bit. I mean,
Speaker 2: I say that as somebody who reacted emotionally when I
Speaker 2: first saw it, and I still feel emotional about it,
Speaker 2: and I still feel pretty strongly about it. But if
Speaker 2: we can all have conversations about it, we can get
Speaker 2: a little bit closer to just understanding one another. We
Speaker 2: don't have to agree with each other, and I don't
Speaker 2: think we ever will, but if we can just understand
Speaker 2: each other and show a little respect, you know, that
Speaker 2: would go a long way in the conversation. And it's
Speaker 2: been an interesting reaction between you and me about what
Speaker 2: we both read and saw.
Speaker 1: And the completely miss this one. I didn't miss, but
Speaker 1: we even forgot this one because there was so much
Speaker 1: stuff in there the world around us says we should
Speaker 1: keep our beliefs to ourselves whenever they go against the
Speaker 1: tyranny diversity, equity, and inclusion. That was his other line.
Speaker 2: It bothered me a lot.
Speaker 1: They go against the tyranny of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Speaker 1: Now that's other levels. He threw it in there. Now
Speaker 1: that one seems he didn't give any he didn't allow
Speaker 1: for any more conversation. He made a statement there and
Speaker 1: left it for our interpretation. But to call it the
Speaker 1: tyranny of diversity, equity, inclusion. I know there's a movement
Speaker 1: in this country to get rid of those offices and
Speaker 1: whatnot in companies and schools and states around the country.
Speaker 1: I get that, But they call it the tyranny.
Speaker 2: Well, easy to say for a white man, I just
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but I think that is part of the offense,
Speaker 2: that his experience is so singular, and most anyone who
Speaker 2: isn't a white male, I would never say, I know
Speaker 2: what it's like to be him. But to then say
Speaker 2: for inclusionists and diversity and all those things to somehow
Speaker 2: be something negative, that's also I have a I take
Speaker 2: a huge issue with that, and again I think just
Speaker 2: goes against the teachings of Fellowship and Christianity at its base,
Speaker 2: at its root, we should be inclusive, we should be diverse,
Speaker 2: we should be accepting, and certain parts of this world,
Speaker 2: in this society do need extra support based on history
Speaker 2: and current status. That's just the truth.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm bumpstill looking at his tyranny line. It
Speaker 1: was just it's hard to put it in full context
Speaker 1: of what he was trying to say and why he
Speaker 1: said it. He would have to explain I would lead
Speaker 1: to hear what he's talking about here. But just on
Speaker 1: its face, you you jump to a conclusion that he is,
Speaker 1: you would the tyranny of diversity, equity and inclusion. That's
Speaker 1: just that's just one to defend. But it just there's
Speaker 1: no fuller context in the paragraphs. So I don't know
Speaker 1: exactly what he was trying to say, but that that
Speaker 1: don't look good. But yeah, it's it's we'll see what
Speaker 1: happens that I don't I don't think as of this recording,
Speaker 1: the Kansas City Chiefs have made a statement about it.
Speaker 1: Then they might not. Look there's a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: going on in the league that well, sometimes guys do
Speaker 1: a lot worse than say some words that offend people. Yep.
Speaker 1: So don't know if anything will come of it in
Speaker 1: the NFL, but this was no. I appreciate it. I
Speaker 1: didn't even want to do this episode, yes, because I
Speaker 1: said whatever I upset about. I just don't want to
Speaker 1: pile on or throw in some oounts. All right, Finn,
Speaker 1: some outrage here, but I don't actually have it. And
Speaker 1: I just saw it as a great opportunity to have
Speaker 1: a conversation and to slow down a little bit. And
Speaker 1: we do encourage everybody to read it or listen to
Speaker 1: it and listen to the crowd and how the crowd
Speaker 1: reacts to certain things. He says at times, Yeah, it
Speaker 1: wasn't a hospital for out for him.
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't. And so I love that we're I mean,
Speaker 2: we're having a conversation about having a conversation before you know,
Speaker 2: going on to social media. And I argue that most
Speaker 2: people who have well I shouldn't say this, but I
Speaker 2: would imagine a lot of people who are hearing or
Speaker 2: reading about this have only heard or read about it
Speaker 2: on social media. And so take the time for yourself
Speaker 2: to watch it and have a measured conversation about it.
Speaker 2: Maybe we can all learn a little bit more about
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 1: And thank you women who are mothers, thank you women
Speaker 1: who are wives, thank you women who are daughters, thank
Speaker 1: you women who work. That is from Pope John Paul
Speaker 1: and a letter to women in which he was almost
Speaker 1: it's almost a love letter to women, you could argue,
Speaker 1: but he that's quoted a lot of times back in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five to where he said thank you to
Speaker 1: women who work. Quote, we need only think of how
Speaker 1: the gift of motherhood is often penalized rather than rewarded.
Speaker 1: Even though humanity owes it's very survival to this gift,
Speaker 1: much remains to be done to prevent discrimination against those
Speaker 1: who choose to be wives and mothers. Paul John, Paul
Speaker 1: your guy, what used to be your guy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he's the people's the people's fault. Now
Speaker 2: he's beloved, and that's the reason why he was canonized. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know. I mean, I I think I want to
Speaker 2: close with this that you know, us women we're I
Speaker 2: think we're we fill many roles. We work really hard,
Speaker 2: whether we're working in the home outside of the home.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And I just hate to make or for any woman
Speaker 2: to feel like they're less than or more then, or
Speaker 2: better then or worse than if they choose what's right
Speaker 2: for them and for their family. And I think that
Speaker 2: was my biggest issue, just you know, support women no
Speaker 2: matter what they do, and a man shouldn't. I just
Speaker 2: don't think a man should be encouraging a woman one
Speaker 2: way or the other. I think we need to support
Speaker 2: whatever a woman feels is right for her. And that
Speaker 2: is where I would like to end my contribution to
Speaker 2: the conversation.
Speaker 1: Is this a thing where it's going to turn into
Speaker 1: one of those things where you the only option you
Speaker 1: have in commenting about this story is to absolutely condemn him,
Speaker 1: and anything short of condemning him in everything he said,
Speaker 1: you are then opening yourself up to criticism. Is this
Speaker 1: one of those things?
Speaker 2: It's a tricky It's a tricky conversation that's been had
Speaker 2: for decades and decades, and I just don't think there's
Speaker 2: a right answer other than supporting women and their choices
Speaker 2: and supporting women who don't have a choice. And no
Speaker 2: woman should feel bad or guilty about doing what's right
Speaker 2: for her and for her family.
Speaker 1: What would you like to do today? Meeting one? No,
Speaker 1: I just didn't want to. I didn't want to suggest
Speaker 1: or encourage you to do something that you didn't already.
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure you have a choice.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I appreciate that. No One, I don't feel
Speaker 2: that pressure. Thank you. Honey.
Speaker 1: All right, folks, I encourage you to read it or
Speaker 1: go watch it, but thank you as always for hanging
Speaker 1: out with the two of us and hopefully this conversation
Speaker 1: helped and move things forward a little bit and not backwards.
Speaker 1: See y'all.
Speaker 2: S