WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: The Oldest Computer 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.280 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:16.800 job and Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:19.200 Radio and a lot of all things tech, and it 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:23.520 is time for a classic episode. This episode originally published 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:28.000 on November two, thirteen, and it is titled the Oldest 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:34.640 Computer Enjoy. So, Joe, why would you like to talk about? Well, um, 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.000 on forward thinking, we usually talk about the future in 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.199 or another and um so I wanted to go in 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:45.599 completely the opposite direction and talk about the technology of 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:50.199 the past. And I started thinking, I wonder, what's the 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.080 oldest computer that we know about? Oh? I got you. 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.960 So we're talking nine with any AC, right, that computer 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.240 that you would end up programming with lots of plugs 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:03.520 and switches, not at all? Wow? No? So wait are you? 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:06.040 You're saying it's older than that? Older? Okay? Alright, well 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.520 find how about the ninety two that's the Tennis soft 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.440 Berry Computer or ABC, which was built at Iowa State 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:16.360 College which now university. Obviously, but there was there was 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:20.720 a patent dispute actually that was decided in the United 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.400 States government about whether ENIAC or the ABC computer were first, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.679 and ultimately they said that it. Uh, you could not 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.560 have anyone to claim they were the ones to invent 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:35.280 the computer. That's the first one, right, ABC computer. Okay, alright, 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.640 N one. We're starting to get a little fuzzy here, 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.600 but alright, so Conrad Zeus builds the Z three computer. 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.160 And that was also the same year when the first 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:46.800 bomba was built, you know, one of the devices meant 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:53.120 to help decrypt German messages. That's it, right, No, alright. 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:57.600 Nineteen thirty nine, George Stimmits completes the complex number calculator, 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.880 the CNC at Bell Telephone Laboratories. We just finished talking 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:03.560 about Bell Labs. This has got to be it. And 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.800 even in the first demonstration he used teletype so that 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:11.320 he could program this remotely over special telephone line. So 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.280 it was the first remote computer as well. So that's it, right. 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:18.320 I think you need to think less electricity fine, fine. 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:24.200 Seven the analytical Engine. Charles Babbage, he designs this, never 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:26.760 finishes it in his lifetime, but of course that is 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:31.079 the device that Ada Lovelace, the Enchantress of Numbers, had 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:35.800 possibly even created computer programs for algorithms, where she envisioned 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.080 a time where you could encode things like music and 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.760 poetry into mathematics. That's it, the analytical engine. Okay, so 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.240 we're gonna talk about that. You're you're about two tho 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:53.400 years off, say what not about almost? Okay, so what 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.640 are you talking about? I'm talking about something that is 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:01.280 called the antique antique kith ant Oh, we're gonna have 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:06.200 this problem the whole time. The anti cythera me yes, 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.679 the anti cithera mechanism are also known as the antikathera mechanism. Yeah, 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.200 it all depends on the or you know, which pronunciation 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:17.000 you follow. Antikythera seems to be fairly commonplace. So we're 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.239 gonna go ahead and use that one and probably switch 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.520 off without even thinking about it. All right, I know 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.160 a little bit about this, but I guess before we 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.400 talk about this mechanism, maybe we need to say what 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.720 the heck is anti Cithera. For anyone who is not 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:34.040 familiar with the the geography of Greece, you may not 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.920 know this. This refers to a place. Yeah, it's an 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:40.880 island in the Mediterranean Sea. And if you um, if 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.520 you imagine you're looking at the Mediterranean, it's the small 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.720 island that's between Crete to the south and the Peloponnesian 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.560 Peninsula up to the north. So the mainland of Greece 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:52.920 and it's right there in the middle. Um, there's a 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.120 bigger island just called Cithera, and this is a smaller 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.400 one offset from it called Anti cither So if Anti 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.200 Cithera and O throw where to collide, it would just 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:07.440 destroy one another. Yeah, total positronic REVERSI yeah, you tell 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:11.520 them about the twinkie, so you know, joking aside, Does 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.040 that mean that this is where that mechanism was was made? Um? No, 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:19.560 probably not. This is where the mechanism was discovered. So 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.320 I got its name, gotcha. So someone was walking around 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.120 Antikithera one day and they stubbed their toe and oh 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.840 what's this and found the world's oldest computer. No, it's 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.920 much creepier. Um okay, So the story goes like this. 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.800 Around the year nineteen hundred, there was a group of 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:40.000 sponge divers who were off the coast of Antikithera and 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.599 they were doing their diving. I guess whatever sponge divers do. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.720 They were gathering sponges, gathering sponges to wash all their 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.960 dishes exactly. Um, so they were doing their thing. But 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.640 apparently one of the divers came up to the surface 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.799 and he was like, guys, there are dead women lying 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.000 all over the bottom of the ocean. There's a bunch 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.280 of naked dead ladies at the bottom of the ocean. Yeah, 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:06.440 sounds creepy, but studios. Yeah. Actually what he was seeing 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.640 were statues. There were bronze and marble statues that were 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.480 part of the payload of a almost well I guess 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.919 about exactly to two year old ship wreck of a 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.400 ship that was a Roman ship, a large Roman ship 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:25.000 carrying a lot of cargo, much of it probably stolen 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.920 or looted cargo. Right, we're talking at an era just 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.960 around the time when the Romans were beginning to uh, 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:36.080 let's say, incorporate the Hellenistic societies into their empire by force. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.479 So it had all these Greek artifacts on it, yeah, 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:45.280 and luxury items, like really expensive stuff in the Greek world. Yeah. 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.120 And so the idea is, we don't know exactly what 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.160 the ship was doing. What we think it was probably 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:54.400 a ship that was returning to Rome from some destination 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.520 uh in the Greek world. Yeah, and so there are 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.120 a lot of these Greek artifactsically currency, uh, they had, 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.760 like you said, statues, they had lots of pottery, um, 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:09.320 and they had this this device, which was well, at first, 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.320 it was just a lump, right, yeah, right, yeah, first, Well, 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.719 and of course it didn't get that much attention early 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.120 on because there was so much other stuff down there 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.560 in that shipwreck. Right, So the people who went in 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.719 to really investigate the shipwreck and take a look and 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:28.239 see what was going on, they didn't necessarily realize that 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.960 there was something truly special, something that was beyond just 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.560 uh special from an artistic merit point of view, but 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.160 could tell us a lot about how much the ancient 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:45.400 Greeks knew about craftsmanship, about astronomy, about math, all of 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:50.520 these things we've become apparent, but only a hundred years later, right, 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.760 so after the explorer. So so it it's it's forgotten 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.760 for two thousand years essentially, and then for another hundred 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:58.680 years we don't really know what it is. So it's 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.440 kind of this lump of roded bronze inside what what 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.640 used to be a wooden box essentially disintegrated. Yeah, so 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.680 there's like there's one big remaining lump, but they're about 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.760 eighty two fragments in total, right, right, So one of 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:17.000 those fragments, the main fragment, has the vast majority of 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.680 the what we know of as the inner workings of 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.280 whatever this device was supposed to be. And we know 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:24.000 a lot more about now, but don't want to ruin 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.440 the surprise. No, But so basically we can say, like 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.880 what it was made of. So what they think now is, Okay, 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.160 this looks like it was some kind of collection of 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:37.600 bronze gears inside of a wooden casing. Yeah. In fact, 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:39.400 at first they thought it might only be just one 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:41.560 gear that somehow was loose from something else, and then 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.480 they realized, no, there's actually several gears here, but it's 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:46.840 all corroded together. Yeah, it's it's sort of like a 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.960 fused into a big bottom of the ocean snotball, Yeah, exactly, 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:55.960 that's very accurate. Um. But so if you can imagine 0:07:56.400 --> 0:08:00.600 I would call like imagine a mid sized dictionary, not 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.920 like a pocket dictionary, but also not that huge one 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:04.680 from the library that you couldn't see. It's on a 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:11.000 pedestalia like a like a large hardback dictionary. Um, and 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.920 it's got a wooden casing, so you could open that 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.880 casing up and then inside you've got this corroded mass 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.240 that uh, that is all this gear formation. Now, of 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.960 course the wooden casing doesn't really remain except in rotted 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:29.800 fragmentary form um. But that's the basic mechanism we're dealing with. 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.680 And if you start to look at it, you would 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.480 see this one big gear um. But you might wonder 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.640 what does this thing do? Yeah, and beyond that, I mean, 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.080 before we even get to that, like how old is 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:44.760 this thing? Oh? Yeah, because I mean we we figured 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:49.480 that the shipwreck happens sometime around eight five BC before 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.520 common eras because mostly because of the dates that we 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.720 found and I say we, but the explorers found on 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.720 the current. Yeah. You know, sometimes Joe and I we 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.559 get we get tired of working on stuff or for thinking, 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:03.960 we pop out to the Greek islands and then just 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:08.200 go well skin diving. Yeah, you know. And X, by 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.800 the way does mark the spot now, but we by 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.800 dating things like the currency, they have sort of narrowed 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.120 the ranged around five b C. But that that doesn't 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.920 necessarily mean that's how old the device is. No, they 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.720 think that the device is older than the wreck. It 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.720 wasn't built like right before that. It's generally dated between 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.400 a hundred and a hundred and fifty b C. So 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.920 it's thought of as a second century BC device, right, 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.880 So so it is an ancient device. Uh, that seems 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.240 to be about how old it is. Uh, we've got 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.120 some ideas of where it may have come from. There 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.680 were some, No, we don't we don't have any The 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.240 instruction manual for this device was not anywhere to be found. 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.760 It was not on the glove compartment of the shipwreck, 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.080 so we can't be absolutely certain. Uh, there's some speculation 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.360 that maybe it was the island of Rhodes, which was 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.839 known for its scholar ship and also it's craftsmanship. But 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:03.640 there are some other options as well that we can 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:07.080 talk about. But beyond that, Um, you know, we've talked 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.560 about what was made of, we talked about how old 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:11.840 it was, but yeah, what what did this thing do? 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.800 And at first it was a real mystery. In fact, 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:18.160 for like we said, like a century, it was a mystery. 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.000 We just didn't have enough information to be able to 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.160 determine that. We had some wild guests. There were people 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:26.320 who made some good guesses, but they didn't know the 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:30.680 full extent yet. Um, and that they didn't realize initially 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.280 how awesome this thing was. You know, we can make 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:36.679 an argument that this is the oldest computer, which obviously 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:38.520 means that it has to do more than just have 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.880 some inner work, inner working gears that moved smoothly. It 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.160 has to do something beyond that, because otherwise anything that 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.040 was reliant on gears and clockwork you could call a computer. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:51.920 But we'll get into exactly what it is that this 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:54.719 thing did. That kind of makes us consider it more 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:58.520 of a computer device and analog computer than some sort 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:03.720 of interesting clockwork. Right. So, um, but in general, what 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.400 we understand it to have been able to do, and 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.600 in fact we understand a lot more about it in 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.680 very recent years than we had for the century leading 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.920 up to it. Oh well, I'd say now we've basically 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.640 had a slam dunk on this one. Recent recent revelations 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:20.959 have shown us, oh, this is pretty much exactly what 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:22.880 it is. Yeah, which is phenomenal when you think of 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.480 how badly and repair this thing was. But but ultimately 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.720 what it does is it's it's a device that not 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:36.000 only tracks celestial events and the movement of celestial bodies 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.880 in relation to our perspective here on Earth, it also 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.600 predicts them. So, in other words, you not only can 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.120 you can you keep track of what's going on, and 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:47.960 it could give you an indication of where you would 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:49.640 need to look in the sky if you wanted to 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.680 see something like marsh It also would tell you that, oh, 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.000 on this particular date, you will have a full solar eclipse. 0:11:57.559 --> 0:11:59.920 It's kind of cool. Yeah. In other words, an ask 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.719 atronomical calculator, yes, um. And so what it would do 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.520 is it would have a position of the Earth and 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.880 then um by moving the hand crank, which which no 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.800 longer exists, but that's that's what figure. It was a 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:19.200 hand crank that that provided the the kinetic energy to 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.559 make everything turn by moving that you could see at 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.199 the same time, based on a projected date in the future, 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:32.120 the positions of the Sun, of the Moon, um, probably 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.880 of the planets we don't know the planet gears are 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.720 missing right now, probably at least the planets that the 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.840 Greeks knew about, which included the probably not the planets 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:45.400 that probably not the we don't think well, not Neptune 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.400 Uranus or if you want to be kind, Pluto um. 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.120 They they had identified as far out as Saturn. Now, 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.760 if in fact we were to find evidence that it 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.880 included these other planets as well as far as we 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.760 know they didn't know about. Then that would the third 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.320 part of our conversation to get a little more interesting. 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.520 It also had yeah, as you said, an eclipse prediction 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.160 dial uh and that's really cool. Uh. And it also 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.600 predicted cultural events. Yeah, that's true, like the Olympiad, right, 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.720 because you had a schedule of when that would take place, 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.959 and so by plotting it against this device and actually 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:24.240 inscribing it on the device, you could in a factor 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.000 then you could see what the what the celestial events 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.760 were going to be at a planned future event that way, 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.480 which is kind of handy. Um. But we'll talk specifically. 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.240 We need to really get into the nitty gritty of 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.839 how this is possible, and then we'll conclude at the 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.680 end talking about how we know all of this stuff, because, 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.319 as you're gonna learn, it's really complicated to figure out 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.679 how a device works if you can't actually visualize all 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.480 the gears when you first get hold of it. Before 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.200 we get into that conversation, let's take a quick break 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.920 to thank our sponsor. So we've got a cool sponsor today, 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:00.680 Trunk Club. This is a really interesting serve it. 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It moves things forwards that you 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.120 can look at what the celestial conditions are on any 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.880 given date, or you can even advance it so that 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.440 you can look for a specific celestial event. Let's say 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.720 you're looking specifically for when is the next eclipse going 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.320 to occur, So you're not looking to see what the 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:45.120 celestial scott, what the sky is going to look like, um, 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:47.080 three months from now, you just want to know when 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.560 the next eclipse is. You could advance the handle from 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.600 your date and keep doing it until you saw the 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.960 eclipse information come up and then compare that see what 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.640 the date is. On the other part of the indicator, 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:00.400 we'll talk about all the different dial This would be 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:02.720 indicated by a dial, so it's like it's like an 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.640 analog clock face. You would be spinning around a point 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.160 to let you know when this is coming exactly, and 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:09.960 then you could say, oh, all right, so the next 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.840 eclipse is in you know, you know, three months and 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.840 two weeks from now or whatever. And uh so there's 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.080 a lot of different ways you could use this. Well, um, 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:24.040 there were about thirty thirty one gears that we know of, 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.200 probably at least at least more or at least thirty 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.040 probably more. So it's I think hypothesized that there were 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.240 more to deal with the movement of the planets that 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.160 that's just lost. And you know, it's not a surprise 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.520 because again, like I said, when we call it bad repair, 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:40.200 I mean you're you think about this. This is like 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.880 essentially the imagine a clock that's been fused into one piece. 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:47.120 I mean an old style gear clock fused into one 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.840 piece that's kind of and it's it's opaque, so you 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.400 can't see these gears that are on the inside just 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:54.880 with the naked eye. But we'll get into how we 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.560 figured more about this in a little bit. But so 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:01.080 you had all these different dials that would mark different events, 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:05.199 uh and different time spans. Right, so you would have 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.159 a dial that would be set up for for just 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.720 regular keeping of of the calendar year, but there were 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:16.080 also dials that were more attuned to specific celestial cycles. 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.920 So for example, there might be a nineteen year cycle 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.440 that's represented by one dial, another one had, I think 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.879 a seventy five year dial, And these dials were to 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.800 refer to things that patterns that would repeat once you 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.959 hit those time frames, so like every nineteen years, this 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:38.359 one set of pattern would repeat itself. So that's why 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:42.399 they have these different dials to indicate exactly what's happening 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.800 at exactly what time. Uh. What I loved was the 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.679 idea that there was one gear specifically devoted to showing 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.280 the phase of the moon, So not only would you 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.520 see the position of the moon on any given date, 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:57.919 but you would also see what phase it was in, 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.040 whether it was waxing or waning, a new moon and 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.359 fullman whatever, and and uh, I really thought that was 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:08.320 very clever. So yeah, you essentially either either refer to 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:12.120 the dates and look at the celestial events to compare 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.080 the two, or you would said it so that you 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:18.040 would look at a specific configuration of the celestial body 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.879 and then look at what date corresponded to it. It's 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:27.680 um kind of amazing to imagine the complex planning and 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:33.119 craftsmanship that went into a machine like this, because, um, 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.200 when you start thinking about it, okay, say somebody set 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.760 you down and told you to try to build something 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:40.960 like this, and you had you know, it was open 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.080 book test. You knew what time frame all these celestial 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.920 events would occur in. How would you do it? Yeah, 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.920 I mean God, so you would kind of figure out 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:55.760 the relationships between the sizes of gears, um and the 0:18:55.800 --> 0:19:01.800 way they would interlock to create fractional relations ships between 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.879 the movements of all the different bodies at the same time. 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.320 And keep in mind that if this thing is reflecting 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.760 say planets and stuff like that, well, from a geocentric 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.239 point of view, the movement of the planets is not 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.960 just a simple circle, right, I mean you see them, 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:23.160 they persiss and then they go backwards and all things exactly. 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.000 So if you and there's a fellow named Michael T. 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.360 Wright who built a replica of this device, and we'll 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.520 talk more about him probably in a bit, but he 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:35.199 there's a great video that demonstrates him using this machine 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.160 to show the movement of these different elements. And sometimes 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:43.359 you see them moving kind of backward compared to other elements, 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.760 and you think, Wow, the gears have to account for 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.800 that too. The gears have to be able to do 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.760 very complex movements of these uh these these arms that 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.560 are on these dials in order to reflect what is 0:19:55.600 --> 0:20:00.560 really happening. And while the model itself uh US depict 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.359 a geocentric view of celestial bodies, we can't be sure 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:09.800 that the person who built it necessarily ascribed necessarily ascribed 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.760 to a geocentric philosophy. Oh, that's certainly true because for 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:18.640 the device's function, I mean it was it was functionally geocentric, right, 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.640 because we're preserving from exactly even if the person who 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:24.880 made it actually thought the Earth went around the Sun, 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.359 it would still look the same pretty much. Because if 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.280 you're reflecting how the world, how the how the celestial 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.680 you know, elements look compared to being on the Earth, 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.080 it makes no sense to make it anything other than geocentric. 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:42.800 So the heliocentric theories had been placed ahead of when 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:47.040 we think this device was made. So it's possible we 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.920 don't know because there were still people who who's ascribed 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.360 to a geocentric worldview. I'd probably say that was dominant, yeah, 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.920 because because it was similar to what we would see 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.159 centuries later, where to propose such a thing as a 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:03.639 helos helio centric view would mean that you might suffer 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.280 a little bit of let's say, you might get ostracized 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.800 with extreme prejudice that people didn't like here in that. Yeah, 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:13.600 So anyway, you know, it does look like it was 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:17.040 going to show you not only the Sun and Moon's movements, 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:19.680 which is already complex enough because they don't move at 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.439 the same rate, or you know they change positions uh 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.080 differently relative to one another, than to throw in the 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.080 other planets makes that or the plants that the Greeks 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:35.199 knew about makes it even more complex. It's Charity from 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:40.040 twenty eight he's the oldest podcaster here to say we're 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.720 going to take a quick break and hopefully when we 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:53.960 come back it will be less cringe worthy. So here's 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.680 the question, does this count as a computer? I would 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:00.720 say absolutely. I would say so to you, and I've 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:03.040 got a little argument here. Tell me what you think 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:06.800 about so um, I'd say the basic definition of a computer. 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.800 A lot of times it's included that it's electronic, but 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.480 let's take that part out and say, well, whether or 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.879 not it's electronic. Um, a computer is like an interactive 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:19.560 machine that can and these words often come up, store, retrieve, 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.480 and process data. That's fair. Um, so it's like input, 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:27.080 output and processing and storage. Yeah. I always think of 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:32.159 it as something that can can take input, put it 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.359 through some form of algorithm, meaning a set of rules, 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:38.359 and then give you output on the other side. And 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.040 it's predictable. It's going to do that the same way. Like, 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.119 assuming that you put in the same input and you're 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:45.720 running it through the same algorithm, you're always going to 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:48.920 get the same output. Okay, so both definitions work very 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.239 well together. Yeah, I'd say the biggest distinction is that 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:56.320 today's computers we think of as being general use. So 0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:59.960 you you have hardware that can compute, but you've all 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.080 got software to boss the hardware around so it can 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:05.520 tell it to compute in different ways. Right. So in 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:07.800 that way, you can have a single machine allow you 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.000 to do Excel spreadsheets or play you know, the first 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:15.440 person shooter game. Right. But obviously without electronics, this this 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:19.240 ancient computer doesn't have software. It just has hardware. Or 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:22.280 it's like thinking about a computer that can only run 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.239 one program, which is not that difficult to imagine. I mean, 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.040 if you if you think of calculators as a subset 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:31.640 of computers. Calculators like your basic calculator. I'm not talking 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.080 about your super crazy calculators that have apps on them 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:39.720 and everything, but your basic calculator does basic calculator functions. It's, 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:43.040 you know, again, taking that input, putting it through an algorithm, 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:46.080 some sort of mathematical process, and you get an output 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:50.600 similar to this device. Yeah. So this device, it's like 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:54.720 a computer that only has one job. But within that job, 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:57.040 I think it's definitely worth saying it's a computer because 0:23:57.400 --> 0:24:01.000 its stores data. So the relationships between in the astronomical 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:05.040 pathways are represented by the mechanical math that's done between 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:07.600 the teeth and the gears. So like the gear sizes 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:11.960 themselves are sort of storing that data. Sure um. And 0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:14.760 then it takes input. You turn the hand crank to 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.679 give it the input of the date you want to calculate, 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:20.800 and then it gives you output. It's got the dials 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:24.200 that reflect the computed values of the of what you're 0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:26.320 looking for. And even as I have said before, you 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:28.800 could do it the other way where you keep turning 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:31.280 the dial until you get the configuration you were interested in, 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:33.720 and then you look at the date, so it works 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:38.359 in either sense, and uh, pretty phenomenal. I mean, it's 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:41.480 when you think about how precise you have to be 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:43.840 to make sure you get this and only that, but 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:46.439 just the huge amount of information you have to have 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:49.720 at your disposal to even start in the craftsmanship of 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:53.879 this thing. Because the Greeks had a lot of of 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:58.040 information about astronomy, some of it they got from the Babylonians. 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:01.359 So the Babylonians were known as is very much interested 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:03.960 in astronomy. The Greeks were as well, and so they 0:25:04.000 --> 0:25:07.560 had to have had all this observation data that they had, 0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:11.000 the things that they had observed about the movement of 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:14.080 celestial objects in the sky and how those patterns would 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:17.600 arise in order for them to plan that out into 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:20.960 a mechanical device. And that to me is really amazing 0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:25.040 because you're not talking about, oh, you know, every four weeks, 0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:28.320 this one event happens. Now, some of these cycles, like 0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:31.359 I said, are incredibly long. You had a nineteen year cycle, 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:33.199 you had a seventy six year cycle, you had a 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:36.800 fifty four year cycle. All of these were taken into 0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:42.160 account to explain the movement of celestial objects in various ways. 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:44.760 Whether it's a solar eclipse or a lunar eclipse, or 0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:46.760 that you get both a lunar and a solar eclipse 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:49.280 within a certain amount of time, not to mention the 0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:52.719 movement of the other planets. That's a lot of information 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:56.399 that you have to have compiled before you ever cut 0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:00.760 into a sheet of bronze. Uh. Yes, it certainly is. 0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:04.399 And and even harder is imagining how you would begin 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:09.399 to compute that data. Yeah, I mean nobody. Um, well, 0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:13.159 actually this is a good question, Um, had anybody ever 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:17.480 made anything like this before? Obviously we don't know for sure, right, well, 0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:21.240 we don't have evidence. This is the earliest existing device. 0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:23.719 In fact, we don't have any other devices to point to. 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:26.680 And let's be clear when we're calling it the earliest 0:26:26.760 --> 0:26:29.800 known computer that that doesn't mean we think that there's 0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:32.280 nothing that like this that could have come before. It 0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:34.840 just means the it's the earliest one that we have 0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:38.239 so and we don't have any others. It's not like 0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:41.880 there are you know, twenty other examples of this. In fact, 0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:44.280 if you want to look at for another object that's 0:26:44.359 --> 0:26:46.840 as complex as this one, you have to go about 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:51.440 fifteen hundred years further into the early Renaissance and look 0:26:51.480 --> 0:26:55.119 at the Middle East, China, and Europe for devices that 0:26:55.200 --> 0:26:59.359 start to equal this level of complexity. Yet, however, these 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:02.600 historians of mechanical engineering, they say, this kind of stuff 0:27:02.640 --> 0:27:06.680 doesn't show up until late medieval clockwork. It's like, yeah, 0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:10.680 at the earliest. So when you take that into account, 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:13.480 you think, well, you know, is this is this an anomaly? 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:16.560 Is it a one off that some mad genius come 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:18.080 up with us? But if you if you were to 0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:21.680 actually carefully examine those gears, and we'll talk more about 0:27:21.720 --> 0:27:25.480 how people have done that over the last decade or so, 0:27:25.920 --> 0:27:28.359 if you were to very carefully examine them, you would 0:27:28.400 --> 0:27:32.560 see that they appear to have been made flawlessly, like 0:27:32.600 --> 0:27:36.000 there were no mistakes. Uh. You know, a lot of 0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:38.280 experts have said that if you were to build, say 0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:41.119 a clock, and it's your first clock, it may be 0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:42.919 a functional clock, but if you were to look at 0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:45.000 the clockwork, you might see where there were mistakes that 0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:48.000 were made and then corrected for later on. There No, 0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:50.840 there's no evidence of that in this device, which suggests 0:27:51.160 --> 0:27:53.359 that whoever built it had done it at least a 0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:57.800 few times before to perfect the whole process. Before building 0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:01.440 another one. Yeah, and combined with the fact that this 0:28:01.440 --> 0:28:05.720 thing is just so smart that it suggests it was 0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:08.359 probably not the only one of its kind. It probably 0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:13.320 came from a line of similar devices, maybe of advancing complexity. 0:28:13.440 --> 0:28:16.080 And you might think, well, if this is the case, 0:28:16.440 --> 0:28:18.720 where the heck is everything else and well, some of 0:28:18.760 --> 0:28:21.600 it could just be lost or destroyed. And also being 0:28:21.600 --> 0:28:24.960 made up of bronze means that it's a valuable resource 0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:28.359 which occasionally for other purposes, like I don't know, war, 0:28:29.000 --> 0:28:31.119 you would melt down so that you could use it 0:28:31.200 --> 0:28:33.440 for other stuff. Yeah, I mean, think about what we're 0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:37.679 talking about the first and second century b C. In 0:28:37.720 --> 0:28:41.240 the Hellenistic world. I mean, it's it's a time when 0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:44.240 stuff might have gotten grabbed and taken to another place, 0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:47.920 melted down, or just lost, just like just like this 0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:50.719 one was lost. There's lots stuff going on if you 0:28:50.760 --> 0:28:53.440 look at and we should mention this stuff you missed 0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:57.120 in History Class Sister podcast they did an episode on 0:28:57.160 --> 0:29:00.880 this same topic. Fantastic episode, highly committed, you should definitely 0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:02.840 go listen to it. Um. But one of the things 0:29:02.880 --> 0:29:05.240 they pointed out was that if you look at bronze 0:29:05.280 --> 0:29:08.840 statues from that era, they're very very few of them, 0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:12.480 and I think like nine out of ten came from 0:29:12.520 --> 0:29:15.240 shipwrecks because the ones that were left on land, more 0:29:15.280 --> 0:29:18.440 frequently than not had been melted down for other purposes. 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:21.440 So it's it's one of those There was not necessarily 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:24.720 a sense of permanency in this time of the world. Okay, 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:28.880 so we don't have, like, in terms of archaeology, another 0:29:29.000 --> 0:29:32.600 device like this from the time. Has anybody ever described 0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:36.120 a device like this from the time? Uh, that's a 0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:38.200 good question. Do you have any actual information on that? 0:29:38.200 --> 0:29:40.400 Because when I was looking for it, that was it 0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:43.640 seemed to me at the time that everyone was absolutely 0:29:43.680 --> 0:29:46.000 shocked by this device because it didn't seem to have 0:29:46.040 --> 0:29:49.040 any kind of shock shocked to the point where they 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:52.720 were wondering if it was perhaps a hoax, that maybe 0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:55.000 someone had planted this thing and it was a fake. 0:29:55.560 --> 0:29:58.680 But it may be that there are sources I'm I'm 0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:00.400 aware of. Do you know any I think there are 0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:05.520 ancient descriptions of ore ries. Okay, so those are wouldn't 0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:09.080 be exactly like this, but sort of ancient models of 0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:12.240 the movement of the Planet's interesting. So yeah, and of 0:30:12.280 --> 0:30:15.680 course we do know that there were philosophers who had 0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:20.640 described uh, the very motions that this device enacted that 0:30:20.760 --> 0:30:22.920 you know they were they were just describing it for 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:27.560 scholarly purposes, and this device would show that in action 0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:30.600 if you were to move the handle. Well, here's an 0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:35.040 interesting question. Who built this thing? Yeah? Where did it 0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:38.240 come from? We don't. We don't know, is the short answer. 0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:41.920 We have some suspicions. Uh. Sometimes the name Archimedes gets 0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:46.800 thrown around there. Yeah, so one clue is just that 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:52.000 Archimedes he was around, you know, a century before this, 0:30:52.280 --> 0:30:55.760 and he was a genius inventor and uh or at 0:30:55.800 --> 0:31:00.400 least we assume, so some of his inventions we cannot 0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:03.160 actually be certain we're ever built. But sure, come on, 0:31:03.280 --> 0:31:07.520 he built a death ray just just in mind, death ray, okay, 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:11.200 probably and a giant a giant arm that would upset 0:31:12.120 --> 0:31:17.360 besieging ships. I'd want to believe, I understand. Okay. So uh, well, 0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:20.200 is that the only evidence that it might have been 0:31:20.200 --> 0:31:24.040 our comedies? Well, no, Archimedes, as you might remember, was 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:29.560 from he lived in Syracuse in the which is unfortunate. Yeah, well, 0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:33.640 unfortunate for our comedies. Uh. He lived in Syracuse. And 0:31:33.800 --> 0:31:37.600 an interesting fact about the device that we discovered later 0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:41.000 is that. Okay, So the device has inscriptions all over it, 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:43.760 very faint inscriptions, and they're hard to read because of 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:48.040 all the corrosion from the thousands of years. But what 0:31:48.080 --> 0:31:50.720 they discovered was, oh, okay, actually we can make out 0:31:50.760 --> 0:31:52.920 some of these with some of this imaging we're about 0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:56.280 to talk about in the next section. And it's in 0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:58.560 coin A Greek. So that was sort of like coin 0:31:58.600 --> 0:32:02.920 A Greek was the lingua franca of the Hellenistic world, 0:32:02.960 --> 0:32:04.680 and you know, people spoke it all over the place. 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:08.640 But the calendar that was represented on here reflected the 0:32:08.760 --> 0:32:11.520 kind of calendar that would be used in the Ionian area, 0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:14.880 which would include Syracuse. Right, So that that gives at 0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:19.440 least some again circumstantial evidence that perhaps our commedee could 0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:23.840 have been involved in this. Then again, our comedies probably 0:32:24.000 --> 0:32:27.560 died too early to have made this particular device due 0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:30.719 to an over zealous soldier. We know he died in 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:35.320 I think to twelve BC and the device was made 0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:41.000 in the probably sometime between, right, So yeah, that does 0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:44.360 put some he died too early to have personally made it, right, 0:32:44.480 --> 0:32:47.520 maybe he made an earlier one. Yeah, And that's one 0:32:47.560 --> 0:32:49.520 idea is that it could have come out of a 0:32:49.640 --> 0:32:54.720 sort of a Syracuse based school of our comedies maybe. 0:32:54.920 --> 0:32:57.560 And again, the Island of Rhodes is another example that 0:32:57.600 --> 0:33:02.080 people have have per presented saying that they were very 0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:04.960 much on that island, there was a scholarly center that 0:33:05.000 --> 0:33:08.800 was devoted to astronomy, and that they also had craftsmen 0:33:08.840 --> 0:33:13.720 who worked in clockwork type devices. So it's possible that 0:33:13.800 --> 0:33:17.000 it could have originated from that area. We just we 0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:19.560 don't know. There's some clues there, but we we don't 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:22.600 know for sure. Yeah. Another name I just want to 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:26.800 mention real quick that gets brought up is Hipparcos. Hipparcos 0:33:27.000 --> 0:33:31.960 Hippocaus of of Nicia. And he was a Greek astronomer 0:33:32.240 --> 0:33:36.600 um and geographer and he did the maths. He was 0:33:36.600 --> 0:33:40.000 a smart guy trigonometry right, yeah, he he was also 0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:44.040 uh he wasn't Hippocrates, but anyway, he he He also 0:33:44.240 --> 0:33:46.680 was known for describing the movements of the sun in 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:50.600 the moon, right and uh. And some indications that it 0:33:50.960 --> 0:33:53.120 maybe could have had something to do with him, or 0:33:53.160 --> 0:33:58.440 that the astronomical theories that are reflected in this, including 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:03.080 like the movement of the moon reflects his thoughts about 0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:05.120 the movement, So it may not be that he had 0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:07.800 a direct hand in it, but that perhaps a student 0:34:07.960 --> 0:34:11.719 or someone familiar with his work took the theory and 0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:16.759 put it into a physical object. Okay, but I have 0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:19.840 another theory about who created it. Yeah, I have a feeling. 0:34:19.840 --> 0:34:23.040 I know what you're gonna say. But hit me with it, buddy. Okay, Well, 0:34:23.360 --> 0:34:27.840 it goes like this, This mechanism is way too advanced 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:30.120 to have been built by human beings at the time. 0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:35.560 Obviously it was built by a aliens be time traveler 0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:41.600 see transdimensional reptilians. Right, so um or or sorry d um, 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:45.520 like a super advanced secret human society that we don't 0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:50.239 know about, like Atlantis, but we do know about them, 0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:52.960 we don't think they exist, all right. So all right, 0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:55.680 and Joe, I know you're you're presenting this as a 0:34:55.880 --> 0:34:58.640 tongue in cheek because you and I share a common 0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:03.600 opinion on this about how it's absolutely ridiculous nonsense to 0:35:03.640 --> 0:35:07.200 assume this. Yeah, for one thing, it it really it 0:35:07.280 --> 0:35:10.359 really says a lot about the cynicism of people when 0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:13.120 it comes to the creativity of human beings and ingenuity 0:35:13.200 --> 0:35:17.759 and our ability to process complex thoughts and bring them 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:21.160 into reality, you know. I mean it's the same argument 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:24.040 that no, the Pyramids, no human could have built those. 0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:28.400 Actually thousands of humans built those. Tens of thousands of 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:31.840 humans built those. Yeah, it's um, it's not like somebody 0:35:31.920 --> 0:35:35.480 in ancient Greece building a warp drive, right, It's it's 0:35:35.520 --> 0:35:39.600 somebody who was building something that was totally available to 0:35:39.880 --> 0:35:42.160 someone with the technology of the time. All they had 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:44.840 to be was really really smart, right. Yeah. That we 0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:47.960 know that the astronomical knowledge was there, you know, the 0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:53.200 scholarship was there. We know that the bronze working was there. 0:35:53.320 --> 0:35:56.080 We know that people there were craftsmen who generally wasn't 0:35:56.080 --> 0:35:58.319 as good as this, right, but there were craftsmen who 0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:02.520 could create incredible bowl works. A lot of bronze U Now, 0:36:02.560 --> 0:36:05.400 a lot of those that haven't survived because of again 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:07.360 the fact that people would melt stuff down. But the 0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:09.719 ones that have survived have shown that there's you know, 0:36:09.840 --> 0:36:12.239 there has there was a level of artistry there. Yeah, 0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:15.480 it's I think the bottom line is it's quite exceptional 0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:19.239 for its time, but it's not unthinkable. And so we 0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:24.120 are discounting the the alien slash time travel or slash Reptilian. 0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:27.840 So whatever, I mean, if it was from Aliens, you'd 0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:31.000 think that, you know, it would reflect a little more 0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:35.400 complete astronomical knowledge, might be electronic or something. Also, it 0:36:35.440 --> 0:36:39.799 wouldn't be geocentric. Really talked about it, you know, it's 0:36:39.800 --> 0:36:42.680 functionally geocentric, even though the person who made it might 0:36:42.719 --> 0:36:45.080 have been right. But why would an alien bother to 0:36:45.200 --> 0:36:49.200 make something from Earth's perspective when oh, yeah, they could 0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:51.759 make an oory from the outside right, including the Earth 0:36:51.840 --> 0:36:54.520 revolving around the Sun. Yeah, why would they do? Yeah? 0:36:54.560 --> 0:36:56.160 I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me. Not 0:36:56.320 --> 0:37:00.400 knowing about planets past Saturn, you know that they just 0:37:00.440 --> 0:37:02.960 thought those were those were not really high up on 0:37:03.040 --> 0:37:06.279 the list. Yeah, you don't wanna, you don't want to 0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:08.920 visit those? Yeah, So I think we can discount the 0:37:08.960 --> 0:37:13.520 whole alien hypothesis. Hey, it's Jonathan from I kicked out 0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:16.040 the old man who was talking into my microphone. We're 0:37:16.040 --> 0:37:18.640 going to take another quick break, but we'll be right 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:29.799 back alright. So we have discussed what it was, we 0:37:29.880 --> 0:37:32.560 discussed how it worked. How do we know that it 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:34.279 did this thing? I mean, you are you're talking about 0:37:34.320 --> 0:37:37.920 a giant hunk of corroded bronze. How could you possibly 0:37:38.640 --> 0:37:41.360 ever figure out what this thing actually did? As we 0:37:41.400 --> 0:37:45.319 already mentioned, people originally did not know. They had no 0:37:45.400 --> 0:37:48.600 idea what this honk was capable of. For a century, 0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:50.920 we really didn't know. We had some people make some 0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:54.320 guesses occasionally, but for the most part, it wasn't until 0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:57.640 we were able to use something far more sophisticated than 0:37:57.680 --> 0:37:59.560 just our own eyeballs to look at it. We had 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:02.759 to use X rays, and with the X rays, initially, 0:38:03.200 --> 0:38:05.400 the X rays showed that there were lots of gears 0:38:05.600 --> 0:38:08.719 inside this hunk of corroded bronze, and that they were 0:38:08.760 --> 0:38:11.479 connected in some way. But those early X rays were 0:38:11.520 --> 0:38:14.440 not perfect. Mostly they due to the fact that you 0:38:14.440 --> 0:38:17.680 couldn't tell depth with it, so you couldn't see how 0:38:17.840 --> 0:38:19.960 the gears were connected. It was like a massive gears, 0:38:20.000 --> 0:38:22.320 but you weren't sure where where they were in relation 0:38:22.360 --> 0:38:25.560 to one another. Um But enter something called three D 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:30.480 X ray. Yeah, where you start tomography, Yes, scanning it 0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:33.040 from all different angles using different approaches. Did you did 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:37.799 you come across the powerful X ray machines called blade Runner? No? 0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:41.439 I didn't. Yeah, yeah, so blade Runner X ray machines. Sorry, 0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:43.839 They used lots of different X ray machines throughout the 0:38:43.840 --> 0:38:46.200 study of this device. As we began to learn that 0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:50.160 this was far more important from a historical perspective than 0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:53.759 anyone had had thought leading up to this. I mean, 0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:56.320 everyone was thinking that these other artifacts were really important 0:38:56.480 --> 0:38:58.320 and this other thing was a curiosity. But as we 0:38:58.400 --> 0:39:02.520 learned more about it, we realized, well, this thing is amazing. Uh. Well, 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:07.240 the the various X ray devices we use showed more 0:39:07.760 --> 0:39:09.759 of the relation of all these different gears, so we 0:39:09.800 --> 0:39:11.880 got to see how they were laid out inside this 0:39:11.960 --> 0:39:17.000 hunk of corroded bronze. But the blade Runner device, all right, 0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:19.960 So it was an X ray machine that was designed 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:24.400 to look for tiny cracks and turbine blades. That's what 0:39:24.520 --> 0:39:26.920 the original design of these machines was for and to 0:39:26.920 --> 0:39:30.000 tell whether or not you're a replicant. Also to tell yeah, 0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:32.799 I would ask you if a turtle is on its back, 0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:36.200 what do you do? Why doesn't mechanism turn the turtle over? Yeah, 0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:38.560 So anyway, it would look for these tiny It was 0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:40.840 designed so that you could detect the tiniest of cracks 0:39:40.840 --> 0:39:43.760 and turbine blades, so that you could do maintenance before 0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:47.520 a catastrophic failure. They used it to look at this device, 0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:51.279 the anti anti cithera device. We keep avoiding saying it 0:39:51.320 --> 0:39:53.120 so that I don't fall over myself. Let's say it 0:39:53.160 --> 0:40:02.960 three times together, Jonathan, Okay, so that's fantastic, all right, 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:05.400 Now you have to say it backwards. No. Um. So 0:40:05.440 --> 0:40:09.160 the Antikithera device, the blade Runner thing, it looks at it, 0:40:09.239 --> 0:40:11.200 and it actually is able to see because it has 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:17.040 such precise measurements. It's able to to to distinguish what 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:22.160 the tiny shallow carvings are on those dials. That's how 0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:25.920 we were able to read the word inscription. The inscriptions, yeah, 0:40:25.960 --> 0:40:29.960 because some of them were just very faded already, even 0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:32.800 before you talk about the corrosion effort in there or 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:35.120 element in there, i should say. And the blade Runner 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:39.280 X rays were able to measure these very tiny changes 0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:43.160 in the surface of these different dials, and that's how 0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:45.640 we were able to see what the writing was and 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:50.600 thus able to really um translated and figure out what 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:53.279 this thing actually did. And that's how people once they 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:55.520 started reading it, once they started being able to read 0:40:55.560 --> 0:40:58.879 the writing, it became clear that this was a far 0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:02.560 more sophisticated to vice than what what predecessors were thinking. 0:41:02.920 --> 0:41:07.800 Even the earliest guesses were things that probably can predict 0:41:08.440 --> 0:41:12.800 solar and lunar movements, or maybe it's some form of calendar, 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:17.239 but it No one was really aware of how sophisticated 0:41:17.239 --> 0:41:19.439 it was until we were able to take this closer look. 0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:22.960 And I think it's pretty phenomenal what we've learned about 0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:26.440 it so far, Like those shallow engravings have told us 0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:29.560 pretty much everything we need to know about its basic function, 0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:33.319 and that's how we're able to draw some conclusions and 0:41:33.360 --> 0:41:37.480 clear the conclusions that lad Michael t right to build 0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:41.480 his replica of the device to the point where he's 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:44.960 got a working replica. Uh it, as far as we 0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:49.520 can tell, it's as accurate to the original as we 0:41:49.600 --> 0:41:52.160 can possibly get. Yeah, you should look this up on 0:41:52.200 --> 0:41:55.160 YouTube and see it, because it's not just a model. 0:41:55.400 --> 0:41:58.880 It is a working replica. He built the machine. He 0:41:59.760 --> 0:42:02.560 used very similar methods as to what the ancient Greeks 0:42:02.560 --> 0:42:05.920 would have. He used the same sort of dimension of gears. Uh. 0:42:05.960 --> 0:42:08.240 You know, keeping in mind that we don't he's working 0:42:08.239 --> 0:42:12.160 from an incomplete model. Even with our very very sophisticated 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:16.000 techniques these days, you can't see what's not there, right, 0:42:16.120 --> 0:42:19.279 there's still some missing pieces that we don't really have. 0:42:19.520 --> 0:42:21.600 You know, he was able to recreate it based upon 0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:23.680 what we think the device was meant to do and 0:42:23.760 --> 0:42:27.480 his works and then the videos are amazing. When you 0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:30.839 watch the just the minute movements of each of these 0:42:30.880 --> 0:42:33.480 pieces in relation to one another and think of how 0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:37.600 complex this is, it's mind blowing. It's well, and it's 0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:40.319 also it's a it's a gorgeous device, you know, It's 0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:43.319 just it's a beautiful device. You would look at and 0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:45.720 you might think Originally, if you were just to glance 0:42:45.760 --> 0:42:47.520 at it, you might think it was either a really 0:42:47.520 --> 0:42:51.399 weird clock or maybe some sort of navigational equipment for 0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:53.800 like a ship or something, just because you've got bronze 0:42:53.800 --> 0:42:56.520 and wood there. But um, yeah, once you get a 0:42:56.560 --> 0:42:59.120 deeper understanding of what it is, it's pretty pretty nifty. 0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:02.480 I think the replica was made with brass instead of product. 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:04.120 I think you're right. I think it was brass instead 0:43:04.160 --> 0:43:07.799 of bronze. So yeah, even more ship like then with 0:43:08.040 --> 0:43:12.680 the brass and would combination. Yeah. There's recent scholarship going 0:43:12.719 --> 0:43:14.880 on with a project called the Anti Kit through a 0:43:14.880 --> 0:43:19.200 mechanism research project that's a collaborative project between lots of 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:24.200 different research organizations and individuals. Yeah, there's a mathematician named 0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:29.239 Tony Freethe and UH he's been using imaging technology to 0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:34.640 get to the bottom of questions that remain about the mechanism. Yeah. 0:43:34.680 --> 0:43:37.920 They the group, the research group was founded in two 0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:42.759 thousand five and has been extremely active. They have sponsored 0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:46.719 several museum exhibitions throughout the world. I think right now 0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:49.920 as the record of this podcast, at least some of 0:43:49.960 --> 0:43:53.480 the device is on display in UH in a museum 0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:58.160 in Athens, but I believe that ends in January. Yeah, 0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:01.760 it's the it's an exhibition and called the Antikittheras Shipwreck, 0:44:01.880 --> 0:44:04.359 the ship the Treasures and the mechanism, and it's at 0:44:04.360 --> 0:44:07.959 the National Archaeological Museum in Athens, Greece. YEA. And so 0:44:08.280 --> 0:44:11.440 that of course has more than than the device itself. 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:13.640 It also has examples of the other stuff that was 0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:16.319 found in that shipwreck, which, by the way, people have 0:44:16.400 --> 0:44:19.840 gone back to that shipwreck and found more things around 0:44:19.880 --> 0:44:25.800 it since that initial discovery. UM. And so there's there's 0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:29.080 also been a lot of symposia that they've held. They've 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:32.600 had a lot of gatherings where they they combine research 0:44:32.680 --> 0:44:35.880 and they published that research. There's lots of information on 0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:39.600 their website about the device and the circumstances around its 0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:44.080 discovery and just the process of discovery as we used 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:48.560 more and more sophisticated techniques to examine it. And it's 0:44:48.600 --> 0:44:52.160 really a great resource. I highly recommend visiting that website. 0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:54.160 I'll link to that on our Facebook page and Twitter 0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:57.240 handle so you guys can see it, because it's pretty 0:44:57.280 --> 0:45:01.800 neat stuff. I mean, it's um, you know. I really 0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:06.640 enjoyed reading about the process they went through as they 0:45:06.680 --> 0:45:09.200 would learn more and more, and of course that hasn't finished. 0:45:09.200 --> 0:45:12.439 In fact, there's there's one thing, one question besides who 0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:14.879 built it that we don't know the answer to yet, 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:17.960 which is why did they build it? Like? Why is it? 0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:21.000 Was it? What? What was the in purpose? Was it 0:45:21.040 --> 0:45:26.040 a scholarly tool? Was it so that they could uh create, 0:45:26.120 --> 0:45:29.640 you know, specifically plan out events to coincide with celestial events, 0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:32.359 so that perhaps it was a political tool. You know, 0:45:32.400 --> 0:45:35.160 maybe if if an eclipse is seen as a bad omen, 0:45:35.560 --> 0:45:39.480 you may want to avoid planning some big event around 0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:42.759 an eclipse just so that people don't think that the 0:45:42.800 --> 0:45:45.840 event itself is cursed. I mean it's I'm sure in 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:48.560 the ancient world you could probably get some amount of 0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:52.600 power just by being able to accurately predict eclipses. Yeah. Yeah, 0:45:52.680 --> 0:45:56.320 and that's another possibility. It could just be religious power 0:45:56.400 --> 0:46:00.719 or political power. We don't know, And it's possible that 0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:03.280 as much as we can learn about this device, maybe 0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:07.080 we never really figure out with any degree of certainty 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:09.359 who built it or why it was built. In fact, 0:46:09.400 --> 0:46:11.520 I'd be amazed if we ever are able to figure 0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:13.520 out who built it. That would be phenomenal to me. 0:46:14.000 --> 0:46:16.320 Unless someone's like, oh, look here there's an inscription on 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:20.799 the bottom, Johan from Sweden. What that would That would 0:46:20.800 --> 0:46:23.920 be a big upset, But not that I think that 0:46:23.920 --> 0:46:27.600 would ever happen. But yeah, I mean it was I 0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:32.279 want to float. Another possibility steampunks, all right, so steampunk 0:46:32.360 --> 0:46:36.319 cost players. Yeah, but I'm thinking that it was a 0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:41.200 steampunk convention. A certain doctor showed up at it, accidentally 0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:45.560 ended up grabbing this device, and on a further adventure, 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:48.440 maybe three episodes down the line, ended up accidentally dunking 0:46:48.520 --> 0:46:51.080 it into the ocean off the coast degrease. That's exactly 0:46:51.160 --> 0:46:54.840 what happened. Um, explains everything. Uh, did you see the 0:46:55.120 --> 0:47:01.239 the lego really cool? Now, this wasn't We probably might 0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:03.920 not want to call it a replica because it's not 0:47:04.000 --> 0:47:07.319 trying to copy the form of the original, just the function, right, 0:47:07.360 --> 0:47:09.719 And even the function it was I think a limited 0:47:10.120 --> 0:47:12.120 part of it because it was really showing things like 0:47:12.160 --> 0:47:15.799 eclipses in the uh in the the lego version, I 0:47:15.800 --> 0:47:20.000 don't think it necessarily showed all the movements that the 0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:23.480 Antikitthera device showed, because I was when I watched the 0:47:23.560 --> 0:47:25.879 videos that this is really clever because it would show 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.600 you the the date and uh when the next eclipse 0:47:29.600 --> 0:47:32.040 would occur, whether it was solar or Luna or both. 0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:37.200 But it didn't um both as in like a region 0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:39.680 of time when both would occur, not both occurring at 0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:44.719 the same time. UM necessarily, But the the it didn't 0:47:44.760 --> 0:47:46.160 tell you things. It didn't tell you things like the 0:47:46.200 --> 0:47:48.760 movement of the planets as far as I could tell. 0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:52.880 So it was it had a limited set of functions 0:47:52.920 --> 0:47:56.719 that the Antikithera device actually did. But it was still 0:47:56.719 --> 0:47:58.840 really cool to watch. It was really cool. Let me 0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:02.240 tell you, I'm going to invented device and it's gonna 0:48:02.280 --> 0:48:05.960 tell you it'll predict when the sun passes in front 0:48:06.000 --> 0:48:09.239 of the moon that will be a bad day. I'm 0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:11.839 gonna make sure I stay indoors that day. What does 0:48:11.920 --> 0:48:14.520 that call that's called like A? I think that's I 0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:17.920 think that's called well, it doesn't really matter because we're No. 0:48:19.920 --> 0:48:24.080 That's essentially called boy. It's sure as vaporized outside today, 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:26.440 isn't it. Ah? Yeah, No, that would not not go 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:30.520 over well. And that wraps up this classic episode about 0:48:30.520 --> 0:48:33.840 the oldest computer. Hope you guys enjoyed it. If you 0:48:33.840 --> 0:48:37.160 have any suggestions for future topics or perhaps requests that 0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:40.000 I never ever do an old man voice ever again, 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:43.840 which is legit, you can reach out to me on Twitter. 0:48:44.040 --> 0:48:46.919 The handle is text stuff H s W and I'll 0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:54.680 talk to you again really soon. Text Stuff is an 0:48:54.680 --> 0:48:58.360 I Heart Radio production. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 0:48:58.719 --> 0:49:01.800 visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:03.480 you listen to your favorite shows.