Speaker 1: How do you then get connected to real women.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, our producer had the play and he
Speaker 2: contact me and he said, you know, I'm thinking of
Speaker 2: adapting this into a movie, and it was being a
Speaker 2: stage in Los Angeles. I went to see the play,
Speaker 2: but I did like the staging because it was when
Speaker 2: the women take off their clothes.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh, the actors have very and flattering underware, like really exaggerated,
Speaker 2: so people like the audience was laughing at them, not
Speaker 2: with them, and that's what's horrible. So I walk out
Speaker 2: of the play.
Speaker 1: You out of real women of girls? Yes, oh my god.
Speaker 1: Welcome to more than a movie, a podcast that gives
Speaker 1: you a behind the scenes look at your favorite movies.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Alex Fumero. Last season, we did a
Speaker 1: deep dive on American met This season, I'll focus on
Speaker 1: a different movie. Each episode feature interviews with the biggest actors, directors, writers,
Speaker 1: and producers behind them and tap into the history of
Speaker 1: Latinos in film. In this episode, we are exploring the
Speaker 1: two thousand and two classic Real Women Have Curves. Real
Speaker 1: Women Have Curves is the coming of age story of
Speaker 1: a first generation Mexican American girl played by America Ferrera,
Speaker 1: who would go on to star in shows like Ugly
Speaker 1: Betty Superstore and most recently in The Barbie Movie, for
Speaker 1: which she was nominated for an Academy Award. At the time,
Speaker 1: America was only seventeen years old, but would win an
Speaker 1: Independent Spirit Award and a Special Jury Prize for Acting
Speaker 1: from the Sundance Film Festival for her role as Anna Garcia,
Speaker 1: an ambitious teenager growing up in Los Angeles who has
Speaker 1: dreams of going to an Ivy League school across the country.
Speaker 1: She regularly challenges the norms and expectations of her family,
Speaker 1: especially her mother, played by the legendary and late Lupeon Tiverros,
Speaker 1: who you might know as Jolanda Saldivar in the movie Selina,
Speaker 1: but I prefer to remember for her role as Rosalita
Speaker 1: in The Goonies. Girls nowadays think they know so much.
Speaker 1: That's why they end up bansona no mom.
Speaker 3: The reason they end up pregnate is because they don't
Speaker 3: know how to use contraceptives.
Speaker 2: Your husband's not gonna like it known so much. Why
Speaker 2: is a woman's virginity the only thing that matters? A
Speaker 2: woman has thoughts, ideas a mind of her own.
Speaker 1: The woman who cast a precocious Ferrara in the lead role,
Speaker 1: who discovered her is less known, but perhaps no less influential.
Speaker 1: Patricia Cardozo is one of only a handful of Latinas
Speaker 1: ever to direct a studio movie, and she's inspired scores
Speaker 1: of young Latinas to try and flip those statistics on
Speaker 1: their head. I asked Cardozo on the show to talk
Speaker 1: both about what she went through to make Real Women
Speaker 1: Have Curves and how she's confronted the challenges of being
Speaker 1: a Latina director in Hollywood. I'm here with acclaimed director
Speaker 1: of the now legendary movie Real Women Have Curves, Patrica Cardoso. Patricia,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here on more than
Speaker 1: a movie.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me here.
Speaker 1: I obviously want to talk about the making of that
Speaker 1: particular film and its role in the canon or the
Speaker 1: it's placed in Latino film history, but I did want
Speaker 1: to start earlier. You know, I've heard you talk about
Speaker 1: loving storytelling from a very young age and loving to
Speaker 1: tell stories, and I think it's probably a prerequisite for
Speaker 1: all of us who make movies that were obsessed with storytelling,
Speaker 1: or otherwise we wouldn't do something so difficult. But I wonder
Speaker 1: could you talk a little bit about why you love
Speaker 1: to tell stories, why you loved to tell stories at
Speaker 1: that age.
Speaker 2: You know, that's a good question because I just remember,
Speaker 2: since I have memory since before I learned how to
Speaker 2: read and write, I like telling the stories, and I
Speaker 2: think I like to entertain people. You know, it just
Speaker 2: sounds weird to me because I think that I come
Speaker 2: across as a very serious person and not as an entertainer.
Speaker 2: But I guess I'm an entertainer. You know, I like
Speaker 2: to tell interesting stories. But I also, I think, is
Speaker 2: why kind of to process my experiences, because I always
Speaker 2: was very attracted to my personal experiences retold rearranging the facts,
Speaker 2: but also good experiences of people that I knew close
Speaker 2: to me, and also some rearrangement of the order of
Speaker 2: the facts or some exaggeration to make it more entertaining.
Speaker 1: Right, and your first I'm dropping ahead a bit, but
Speaker 1: your first kind of like short film that you made
Speaker 1: was precisely that, Right, You sort of drew from some
Speaker 1: real life experiences, real people that you knew. I wonder
Speaker 1: if you could talk about The water Carrier a little.
Speaker 2: Yeah, The water Curriage was a story about a blind
Speaker 2: mine in his eighties, set in the nineteen twenties in
Speaker 2: a small village in Colombia, who recorded his side after
Speaker 2: being blind for fifty years. And it was based on
Speaker 2: a true story because my grandfather was one of the
Speaker 2: first doctors in Colombia to do catark inless operations nineteen
Speaker 2: twenty six and he did it in The Man who
Speaker 2: Brought Water to His House. You know, he lived in
Speaker 2: a small villa. Legend there was no running water. And
Speaker 2: that movie is very grounded too, you know. Just I
Speaker 2: come from an anthropology background, That's what I studied undergrad,
Speaker 2: and I'm always like looking to reflect reality as real
Speaker 2: as possible when I love like the popular culture in Colombia,
Speaker 2: in everywhere Latin America, and I think that's what I
Speaker 2: also like so much Carsia America because he had that
Speaker 2: emphasis on popular culture and regular people, not in the
Speaker 2: fancy people. And that movie, you know, told that story.
Speaker 2: That was my physicism for UCLA. So it was like
Speaker 2: a one hour film and it won still an Academy Award,
Speaker 2: to the g Awards, it won a lot of awards,
Speaker 2: and it was still a very good movie. And that's
Speaker 2: the movie that got me the job to direct Real
Speaker 2: Women Have Curves.
Speaker 1: Real Women Have Curves started initially as a stage play
Speaker 1: right in the early nineteen nineties, written by one of
Speaker 1: the co writers of the screenplay, Jssefina Lopez. Yes, tell
Speaker 1: me about the first time you came into contact with
Speaker 1: the stage play Real Women Have Curves.
Speaker 2: That was like three years before I was approached by you, HBO,
Speaker 2: and that was a producer. I had already done my thesis.
Speaker 1: From Yeah, how many years in school are you at
Speaker 1: this point?
Speaker 2: I'm only like two years after.
Speaker 1: You have a manager, You have an agent.
Speaker 2: No, I have a back pocket or agent.
Speaker 1: Do you know what that is? In a back pocket agent?
Speaker 1: And for people who don't know, is like basically somebody
Speaker 1: hip pocket They also call it, right, It's like if
Speaker 1: there's a thing, I'll call you, but you're not really
Speaker 1: my client.
Speaker 2: Is that exactly? Yeah? If someone called the agency and
Speaker 2: ask who represents Patria Cardolo, they say no one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but then if I get a job, he gets ten percent.
Speaker 1: Right, So basically, because this guy was hip pocketing you,
Speaker 1: they just couldn't find a director. Yes, how do you
Speaker 1: then get connected to real women?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, a producer had to play. But this
Speaker 2: is a different producer than the one who actually made it,
Speaker 2: and he contact me. He said, you know, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: of adapting this into a movie. Would you be interested
Speaker 2: in reading the play. I write the play and I
Speaker 2: loved it, and they say yes, and it was being
Speaker 2: a stage Los Angeles. I went to see the play,
Speaker 2: but I didn't like the staging because it was when
Speaker 2: the women take off their clothes. All the actors have
Speaker 2: very unflattering underware, like really exaggerated, so people like the
Speaker 2: audience was laughing at them, not with them, and that's
Speaker 2: what's horrible. So I walk out of the play Girls,
Speaker 2: Yes after that scene. Yeah, But I had read the
Speaker 2: play and I had loved the play. I knew it
Speaker 2: was the staging. It was the way that there was
Speaker 2: being portrayed, right.
Speaker 1: They were the butt of the joke instead of it
Speaker 1: being a moment where you feel sort of empowered.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: And that's why when I finally was directing the movie,
Speaker 2: I knew that that scene was going to be so
Speaker 2: crucial because I wanted to show the women to come
Speaker 2: across as beautiful and show them with respect.
Speaker 3: You want to see celling like, all right, here we go,
Speaker 3: this is selling, but you don't understand, ladies, let me
Speaker 3: show you stresh Mark.
Speaker 1: From this two West.
Speaker 2: Know how beautiful we are.
Speaker 1: To be rid of all these Just let it all
Speaker 1: hang out, okay, ladies?
Speaker 4: Who cares what we look like when no one's watching us.
Speaker 2: I always think my view of the world, it has
Speaker 2: a very wide angle for what is beautiful. You know,
Speaker 2: everything is beautiful basically, and the culture Sonaro. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I walk out of that play. I haven't told Seina
Speaker 2: that story, but I did. But then that producer didn't
Speaker 2: really didn't move forward. But the only thing that I
Speaker 2: realized is that because I loved the play so much,
Speaker 2: I realized that it was the same writer of another
Speaker 2: play I had seen like two years before, called Simply Media,
Speaker 2: which I had absolutely loved, and I felt it was
Speaker 2: like this play an our play she had written. I
Speaker 2: love her boys, because she's just very grounded, but it
Speaker 2: has humor, but it's very real.
Speaker 1: And probably one of the few playwrights. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know about that other play, but it's like, who's
Speaker 1: writing these plays at that time?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: There were so few plays written about the female experience,
Speaker 1: the female Latina experience, right, So did you feel a
Speaker 1: kinship with her? In that story.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yeah, I know. Just I felt that
Speaker 2: even though our loves are completely different, I feel like
Speaker 2: we have such a similar sensibility to tell the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you walk out of that play, which
Speaker 1: was if you know, will maybe find out about when
Speaker 1: she hears this podcast? But then how does it come
Speaker 1: back around?
Speaker 2: Then I get a call from a producer in New
Speaker 2: York that I've known for many years, and he tells me, well,
Speaker 2: you know, HB always making a movie based in display
Speaker 2: real women have curves, and they're looking for directors, Intervinian directors.
Speaker 2: So I gave your name. So I got a call
Speaker 2: from the producer, and then I was one of the
Speaker 2: many directors of the interview. But now there was the
Speaker 2: first draft of the play written, so I wanted the
Speaker 2: screenplay and play. Yes, so I went to lumber. I
Speaker 2: went to HBO to meet with Mot Nadler, who was
Speaker 2: the executive in charge of the project, and to kind
Speaker 2: of pitch my take, you know, which now is like
Speaker 2: you have look books and all these things. Rember carrying
Speaker 2: these huge bags with books, and I remember the City
Speaker 2: Player to play the music, and I played the music
Speaker 2: that I was on the City Player a tiny city player.
Speaker 1: What's that for someone who doesn't know what it's like
Speaker 1: to pitch a take?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: What does that mean? What did that look like? How
Speaker 1: did you pitch the take? I mean, you clearly had
Speaker 1: a scorer with you, but aside from the score, how
Speaker 1: did you do it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know it takes How if I get the job,
Speaker 2: how would I direct the movie? Because the same screenplay
Speaker 2: by different people could be completely different. So it's like,
Speaker 2: what to me is the heart of the story, which
Speaker 2: to me was the mother daughter relationship. It was not
Speaker 2: as much going to college or not that was like
Speaker 2: a really good structure, But to me, the heart was
Speaker 2: the mother daughter relationship and how the mother was imposing
Speaker 2: in the daughter a vision of what it should be
Speaker 2: as a woman, and how the daughter like says, no,
Speaker 2: this is not what I'm gonna do. But you know,
Speaker 2: of course it takes her and and a have to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a good movie, right if it happened
Speaker 1: in the first ten minutes, we'd be walking out. Yes,
Speaker 1: But do you remember what kind of questions you got
Speaker 1: from the executives that from the producers when you were
Speaker 1: pitching your take?
Speaker 2: You know, I remember a comment not that they but
Speaker 2: later that the mod Nanda told me, the executive he
Speaker 2: told me, the reason what I hire you is because
Speaker 2: I had seen your previous movie, The Water Carrier, and
Speaker 2: the respect you had for the characters. And that's one
Speaker 2: of the best compliments I've ever gotten in my life
Speaker 2: as a director.
Speaker 1: Right, because it's the opposite of that production you saw,
Speaker 1: right it Rather than treat them as the bet of
Speaker 1: the joke, you took them very seriously. And yet the
Speaker 1: movie's still funny, right, Like it's it's yes, of course humor.
Speaker 1: But America's character, even in doubting her conflict with her mother,
Speaker 1: she's so sure of herself. She's certainly more confident than
Speaker 1: a lot of seventeen year old girls.
Speaker 2: She's more confident than me. Now, I love that character
Speaker 2: because I always thought this is who my wish I
Speaker 2: was when I was seventeen.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting, because you do. I was going to
Speaker 1: ask you you you do come off as very confident though,
Speaker 1: I mean, even the way you describe you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: So I just I made a short film and it
Speaker 1: won an Oscar and then I went in and pitched
Speaker 1: my take to these producers, Like at any point in
Speaker 1: this processor, you going, I shouldn't be here, like no
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome going through your mind like happens with a
Speaker 1: lot of us. Is there any self doubt? You know?
Speaker 4: Oh my god?
Speaker 2: You know people give me that feedback that I project
Speaker 2: and I'm very confident too, yeah, and I am like, no,
Speaker 2: just the opposite that I'm so lack of confidence, you know,
Speaker 2: and only like I think when I'm teaching, I'm so
Speaker 2: open about it and people are always like amazed.
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't have time either, Patricia Cardoso, but I
Speaker 1: do need to let these ads take up some real
Speaker 1: estate or iHeartMedia is going to cancel my show. We'll
Speaker 1: be right now. Welcome back to More Than a Movie.
Speaker 1: I'm America Fromara and I'm talking to the director of
Speaker 1: Real Women Have Curves, Patricia Cardozo, about how she convinced
Speaker 1: the executives at HBO to let her direct a movie.
Speaker 1: So the movie was already set up essentially because it
Speaker 1: was an HBO original film, so you really just had
Speaker 1: to sell them on you. And then how do you
Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about how challenging the casting process was,
Speaker 1: especially when it came to America, who was unknown at
Speaker 1: the time. I think she'd done one Disney movie. In fact,
Speaker 1: she was at theater camp or something when she filmed
Speaker 1: the audition for real women. How do you convince people
Speaker 1: who have more experience than you, people who have more
Speaker 1: power than you in the room. How do you convince
Speaker 1: them to do your bidding right? How do you convinced
Speaker 1: them to cast the actress that you that you want,
Speaker 1: that you feel is necessary to tell the story the
Speaker 1: way you want to.
Speaker 2: You know, I think that my secret weapon is perseverance.
Speaker 2: I just persist and perceived and persist.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It took a long time to find an actor that
Speaker 2: could play the role because by definition, you know, first
Speaker 2: like most movies at the time were male actors. You know,
Speaker 2: to have just a female lead, it was very initial, right,
Speaker 2: And then to have a female lead that is latina,
Speaker 2: I saw even more n usual. And then to have
Speaker 2: a female lead that is latina and is a little overweight,
Speaker 2: that's just like impossible, you know. So when we were
Speaker 2: doing the casting, all the actors were so thin, and
Speaker 2: we did open called casting and there are all these
Speaker 2: actors in line, and they were so thin, and they
Speaker 2: kept explaining to me that they didn't feel think that
Speaker 2: they felt they were very overweight.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. So from a Hollywood perspective, they're like, I'm
Speaker 1: curvy and you're looking at them and going love, You're not.
Speaker 1: You're within actress.
Speaker 2: Yes, but that's how we perceive ourselves, you know, we
Speaker 2: have that.
Speaker 1: It's a microcosm of the film itself sort of playing
Speaker 1: out in your casting process. And so I'm not asking
Speaker 1: you to name names, by the way, but like when
Speaker 1: you're running into resistance for an actress like America for
Speaker 1: the role, who are the types of people that are
Speaker 1: saying no? And are they suggesting an alternative?
Speaker 2: Well, there was another actor that almost everyone is me
Speaker 2: and my casting directors like more, you know. And her
Speaker 2: name was Anna, and she was an actual student at
Speaker 2: Beverly Hills High School, and she was fifteen, and she
Speaker 2: was more conventionally beautiful, but she was not really an actor.
Speaker 2: Emergin had a sister who was in a soap opera
Speaker 2: actor with her. She just wanted to follow her sister photosteps.
Speaker 2: So as with America, she had this passion for acting,
Speaker 2: you know. So that's the one that was the preferred
Speaker 2: person America. She really was the best. So one of
Speaker 2: the strategies I used was that I brought her I think,
Speaker 2: for like eight callbacks. Yeah, and you know, and then
Speaker 2: I do all these tests with different potential models and
Speaker 2: different potential boyfriends and all these things just to kind
Speaker 2: of show her capacity, and then I would direct her
Speaker 2: different ways.
Speaker 1: It's fascinating because some directors seemingly, I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: they don't even think about performance, and other directors are
Speaker 1: very performance oriented, and it sounds like you spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time directing performance. Real women have looks beautiful, right,
Speaker 1: So it's not a film that is negligent to the
Speaker 1: cinematography or the realism of the sets. All of that
Speaker 1: is very meticulous. But I'm curious how many takes are
Speaker 1: you doing, how much time are you spending with the
Speaker 1: actors on their performances.
Speaker 2: As much as it's needed. So, but you know, I think,
Speaker 2: like what I do before is that, you know, is
Speaker 2: that I meet with each actor like one on one.
Speaker 2: And I began doing this when I did The Water Carrier.
Speaker 2: I couldn't have rehearsals, which is the case very often
Speaker 2: because either there is no time and there is no
Speaker 2: budget to do rehearsal. I meet with each actor and
Speaker 2: then I read all their scenes, and they read their lives,
Speaker 2: and I read all the other lives. I did this
Speaker 2: with American and I did this with Loupe, and then
Speaker 2: we talk about all these scenes. So by the time
Speaker 2: we get to set, although we didn't have an official rehearsal,
Speaker 2: we are in the same page and we kind of
Speaker 2: know what's going on.
Speaker 1: You make the film. Do you remember getting the call
Speaker 1: being told that you were premier on sun Dance And
Speaker 1: did Sundens mean anything to you at that time? Oh?
Speaker 2: You know, I had worked for Sundance for five years,
Speaker 2: so I knew Sundance very well. And I and Jeff
Speaker 2: Kilmen was the director of the festival, and have worked
Speaker 2: very closely with him. And actually when I got the
Speaker 2: call saying that I was accepted, I cried because I
Speaker 2: thought I was going to destroy my movie because there
Speaker 2: was very little time to finish it. But basically the
Speaker 2: movie was selected on an editor's rough assembly because on
Speaker 2: November fifteen, I was still cheating in New York and
Speaker 2: then we find out like the first week, you know,
Speaker 2: right after Thanksgiving, we found out we have and then
Speaker 2: basically we had three weeks to edit.
Speaker 1: It was like a three million dollar budget or something yes,
Speaker 1: which is like a pittance yes perspective. So you were like,
Speaker 1: you're running out of money basically and time. It sounds yes.
Speaker 2: You know, I believe so much in editing that I thought,
Speaker 2: if I have to edit this moving in three weeks,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna destroy it. So I was gonna call Jef
Speaker 2: Gilmour and tell him please don't accept the movie. And
Speaker 2: my editor told me, sit down, don't call yet. Let's
Speaker 2: think about it. You know, the big advantage that you're
Speaker 2: gonna have, she told me that is because we only
Speaker 2: have three weeks. The cut is gonna be your cut.
Speaker 2: Nobody's gonna do anything.
Speaker 1: Right because you have, you know, the facto directors.
Speaker 2: Because the fact the director's cut. Yes, because the directors
Speaker 2: get like twenty weeks. So I'm gonna have three weeks.
Speaker 2: She told me that because she she's very smarred. And
Speaker 2: I thought, okay, you've conmused me. Let's get to work.
Speaker 2: And then we've left in the editing room for like
Speaker 2: three weeks and we're working on.
Speaker 1: The stop and so you know, when you get there,
Speaker 1: you're like the bell of the ball. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: like the coolest experience for a week. How did you
Speaker 1: internalize suddenly all these people saying, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: love your movie, Oh my god, what are you going
Speaker 1: to do next? What was that like?
Speaker 2: No, you know, it was very joyful. And also because
Speaker 2: once I got there before the first screening, I had
Speaker 2: no idea if the movie work at all.
Speaker 1: Because like we oh god, the first time an audience laughs,
Speaker 1: isn't it like a thousand pounds have come off your shirt?
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, it worked all the shit. If that
Speaker 1: joke worked, then the other ones are gonna work. Oh
Speaker 1: my god. You know. It's like a were you where
Speaker 1: were you standing?
Speaker 2: I was seating. It was at the library, and I
Speaker 2: was sitting next to mob Naturaler and we were holding its.
Speaker 1: Also you you sat in the audience. Yes, I had
Speaker 1: to like hide behind the curtains because I couldn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was.
Speaker 2: Chalking, you know, it was chalking to see how people
Speaker 2: were laughing so much, how some of them now get lost,
Speaker 2: and and how people are screaming and then the stand innovation.
Speaker 2: That was amazing. You know, it's.
Speaker 1: Wonderful, unbelievable. And so the film premieres at Sundance. It's
Speaker 1: an HBO film, so it already has distribution inherently. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's hyperbole to say it's been a phenomenon, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, here we are, it's twenty twenty three, and
Speaker 1: we're still talking about real women f curves. I think
Speaker 1: you get at least one, if not five requests a
Speaker 1: year to talk about this.
Speaker 2: Movie A lot lot, you know, it's more than that,
Speaker 2: you know, I get ten, twenty, sometimes thirty times a year.
Speaker 2: Is amazing.
Speaker 1: I have to say, this film, it's incredibly well crafted.
Speaker 1: It's a grounded film. You know, It's one that at
Speaker 1: least to me felt very real watching it, and it
Speaker 1: has all of this love and respect for it. But
Speaker 1: you found you had trouble following it up, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: uhh yeah, you know. I mean you would think and
Speaker 1: it's just you. By the way, After looking at sort
Speaker 1: of your career, I was like, well, what other you
Speaker 1: know Latina directors since and in the last you know,
Speaker 1: twenty something years, it's been somewhat disheartening to see. I
Speaker 1: think we counted four films, like you know, I think
Speaker 1: Patty Reagan has two of them, and there's yours, and
Speaker 1: there's one more than Eva Longoria's recent you know, ha
Speaker 1: Chieto's movie. What was the next project you wanted to
Speaker 1: make after Real Women?
Speaker 2: Of course, you know, I was attached to the directors
Speaker 2: amazing project, but it was not Latino. It was with
Speaker 2: Halle Berriott Universal. It eventually got made as an Netflix
Speaker 2: movie called Nappily ever After, and I love that project.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It was a woman who like her her was the
Speaker 2: symbol of her security and then she loses her her
Speaker 2: and then all her journey to find herself and I
Speaker 2: love that project. So I was in development health for
Speaker 2: like two years. So that was that was very sad for.
Speaker 1: People who don't know. That basically means you're like reworking, reworking,
Speaker 1: reworking the script, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It worked like two or three different writers and supervising
Speaker 2: and it was very hard. And at the end this
Speaker 2: grip was kind of a Frankens time because some scenes
Speaker 2: were written to please the president of the studio owners,
Speaker 2: to Pis, the executives, the producers, the actors, and me.
Speaker 2: So I was very sad, but I guess he was
Speaker 2: part of the process. I had a project that I
Speaker 2: loved before Real Women that it was about us Grdi Nandez,
Speaker 2: which is a Venezuelan doctor who died and in the
Speaker 2: at the time, he was in the process of becoming
Speaker 2: a saint, and now he's a saint. So I had
Speaker 2: that project for many years, and I loved that project.
Speaker 2: You know, it was like fantasy because part of the
Speaker 2: story happened in heaven after he dies and he's stalling.
Speaker 2: He's going through training to be a saint, and he
Speaker 2: doesn't want to be a saint. So that was like,
Speaker 2: you know, like, I feel that I'm misunderstood because I
Speaker 2: have like these stories and these ideas that I know
Speaker 2: they're going to do well with audiences because I'm always
Speaker 2: writing and directing for audiences. I want people to see it,
Speaker 2: and I know they're going to Everything I've done is
Speaker 2: very successful commercially and also critically. But yeah, to me,
Speaker 2: the audience is most important of everything. But they're weird,
Speaker 2: the stories, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we could attribute it partially
Speaker 1: to Okay, you gravitate towards weird stories, and maybe those
Speaker 1: are viewed as non commercial, but I have to think,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's astonishing to me that there are not
Speaker 1: more specifically after what you did, right, But this film,
Speaker 1: it's such a statement piece. It's like, look, a female
Speaker 1: Latina director makes a movie real women have curves with
Speaker 1: an almost holy female Latina cast, and it's a great success,
Speaker 1: you know, and yet it's like fucking Groundhog's Day. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is what I'm learning making this podcast. And it's
Speaker 1: not just Latino directors, it's all of us. It's the
Speaker 1: unfortunate truth is that the representation numbers have just not
Speaker 1: changed over fifty years.
Speaker 4: It's horrible, horrible, you know, horrible is an understatement, understatement,
Speaker 4: and so when you're having discussions with you know, studio
Speaker 4: executives or whoever else it is, is this coming up,
Speaker 4: like what is the existence that you're coming up against.
Speaker 2: I didn't have a clarity as of like, word was
Speaker 2: my statistics statistically my chances of making more movies? And
Speaker 2: if you look at the statistics there is not surprising.
Speaker 2: You know, only like four percent of women are directing features.
Speaker 2: And of that four percent, you know, zero points sixty
Speaker 2: six latinas. So it is just not going to happen.
Speaker 2: But the thing is that nobody tells you that. You
Speaker 2: go into all these meetings. You know, there was this
Speaker 2: other period up to direct Hollywood movies with budgets with
Speaker 2: good budgets, and I was like a runner up seven times,
Speaker 2: but there's nothing that I ordinerated, and none of them
Speaker 2: were Latino subjects. And I was always like one of these,
Speaker 2: you know, like you go through all these interviews and
Speaker 2: then the president of the studio it's we two finalists,
Speaker 2: and out of those seven, always the other person was
Speaker 2: a white man and he always got the job. And
Speaker 2: I invest years of my life, you know, it was
Speaker 2: good practice for storytelling and for pitching and for everything.
Speaker 2: But I never had a chance. And I was not
Speaker 2: aware that I didn't have a chance. You know, I
Speaker 2: felt that it was a fair game, and it was not.
Speaker 2: You know, I think that I was just being put
Speaker 2: there to have like a quota to say, we talked
Speaker 2: to a woman, we took a person of color, and
Speaker 2: that person was in the running.
Speaker 1: But you are very tenacious or relentless, right, yeah saying
Speaker 1: And so my question is after each of these experiences,
Speaker 1: you had to say, Patricia, keep going right, and I mean,
Speaker 1: now you're working like crazy, But were there any moments
Speaker 1: where you were like, I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 2: Oh so many times I thought I was gonna give up,
Speaker 2: And you know, I love plants and fruits, so I
Speaker 2: thought I'm gonna become a farmer. I really, I really
Speaker 2: thought that, and I went to this working farming Ventura country, beautiful.
Speaker 2: I loved it, and it was a Colombian woman, Marito
Speaker 2: Japanese farmer. But I realized it was not gonna work out. So,
Speaker 2: you know, I just think that I want to give up,
Speaker 2: and then I give up, but then something inside me
Speaker 2: takes over and I just can't control, and I just
Speaker 2: keep going. So at some point I realized that I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna die trying, you know. So I'll be in
Speaker 2: my nineties and I'll be trying, and hopefully when I
Speaker 2: get to be in my nineties, I had more movies
Speaker 2: to show.
Speaker 1: Sure, And I mean, look, it's not movies, and I
Speaker 1: totally get that. But you have had something of a
Speaker 1: career renaissance, resurgence, normalization, whatever we want to call it,
Speaker 1: you know, through television directing right, yes.
Speaker 2: Which was also also almost impossible to get. And it
Speaker 2: was only because if I done Harmy direct in Sugar
Speaker 2: five years ago. I've only been directing television for five years.
Speaker 1: But since that moment, since Ava Duberney hires you I
Speaker 1: mean you seem to be working all the time.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and I love it because I love working
Speaker 2: and I just have so much fun. Everyone tells me
Speaker 2: when day Simons said that, I'm just so joyful, it's
Speaker 2: just like I'm so happy. I love the whole process.
Speaker 2: So yes, it's my happy place, you know. And I
Speaker 2: love the collaborations with the cinematographers. Like last year, I
Speaker 2: did four episodes and the four cinematographers I worked with
Speaker 2: were amazing.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: You mentioned that real woman looks fearful, and I started
Speaker 2: by the visuals. I really love the visuals of telling
Speaker 2: a story with images, so that's super important to me.
Speaker 2: And then connecting the camera with the emotion is like
Speaker 2: so joyful to me. So television is offering me just
Speaker 2: like a playground to have fun and tell stories and
Speaker 2: have a big impact. Because it still from my anthropological approach.
Speaker 2: I told you I was an anthropologist.
Speaker 1: You mentioned it briefly, Yeah, but how did that influence
Speaker 1: your filmmaker.
Speaker 2: Completely, Like I consider myself a cinematic anthropologist.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: The producer Brunapa and Andrea, she's a big time producer
Speaker 2: of a lot of a lot of wonderful things. She's
Speaker 2: the one who told me, like, we're talking about what
Speaker 2: should be my brand because and I'm like, I don't
Speaker 2: know what my brand is because I like so many things.
Speaker 2: And then she said, you're a cinematic anthropologist, and I'm like, yes,
Speaker 2: you're right, I am, yeah, because to me is that
Speaker 2: reality is to make things very real. So I do
Speaker 2: a lot of research.
Speaker 1: I heard I heard you say. You know, you talk
Speaker 1: about all the time you spent in East LA for
Speaker 1: real women have curves, and you know, so much of
Speaker 1: what I love about the film is it rather than
Speaker 1: kind of telling us about the Latin experience or the culture,
Speaker 1: you show us instead, did you draw on your own
Speaker 1: real life experiences? You know, aside from just studying the neighborhood,
Speaker 1: how much of your own life and family found its
Speaker 1: way into that fai?
Speaker 2: Oh so much.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The essence of the relationship between the mother and the
Speaker 2: daughter is my mom and meat. That's completely the essence
Speaker 2: of that. And then a lot of the love of
Speaker 2: the culture too. There were many things that were not
Speaker 2: in this script, like the san Antonio hanging up.
Speaker 1: And taking the baby away from some make him work faster, yes,
Speaker 1: you think he works faster? If you take the yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like those were completely things that I put
Speaker 2: into it and also create making more layered characters because
Speaker 2: from the script and even during the editing, the biggest
Speaker 2: challenge was that the character of the mother.
Speaker 1: Was to mean yes, she is very to mean she is, oh.
Speaker 2: But she is nothing compared to what she was in
Speaker 2: the script. Nothing. So I work very closely with Lupe,
Speaker 2: you know, how do we show this, how do we
Speaker 2: she's coming from? And then we came up little this
Speaker 2: backstory and.
Speaker 1: Women talking about the menopause bit is really powerful in
Speaker 1: a couple of ways. One because America's face in that scene,
Speaker 1: and this is again another thing that I love about
Speaker 1: it is a lot of times, let's you know, movies,
Speaker 1: everything can be kind of big, you know, and in
Speaker 1: that scene, America just sort of rolls her head to
Speaker 1: the side and you can just tell us this little
Speaker 1: tiny victory for her, you know that she's right that
Speaker 1: you know, you're not pregnant, you're going through the change,
Speaker 1: you know. But it is also a very humanizing moment
Speaker 1: for Lupe. Yes, how did you approach that scene in
Speaker 1: particular with them?
Speaker 2: You know, like very straightforward. We've talked a lot about
Speaker 2: the characters, you know.
Speaker 1: They just was that part of the plan to like
Speaker 1: humanize her or was that?
Speaker 2: Oh yes, that was such a big effort because she
Speaker 2: was not like human.
Speaker 1: Like.
Speaker 2: One another thing that I did to make her more
Speaker 2: human if I gave her birds, like a cage with birds,
Speaker 2: so she would take care of them. So we saw
Speaker 2: her being kind to something.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's almost like a save the cat.
Speaker 1: It's like save the birds.
Speaker 2: And also that scene where Anna burns her hand like
Speaker 2: ch combs and kisses her hand. And also we gave
Speaker 2: her our trities. You know, it's not in the script.
Speaker 2: The way she walks and the ways when she washes
Speaker 2: the dishes, you see that she has her trities.
Speaker 1: Yea, yeah, yeah. Lupe is also one of those actors
Speaker 1: that can be harsh. She seems like a tough cookie
Speaker 1: and a lot of her roles. I've heard that she
Speaker 1: wasn't your first choice.
Speaker 2: No, she was not, because I was very scared that
Speaker 2: because she had been in the play version and I
Speaker 2: wanted the movie to be different from the play, and
Speaker 2: I was scared that she would bring the same character
Speaker 2: to the play.
Speaker 1: Was this a production at La Theater Company where she
Speaker 1: was involved or.
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't see the one she did. She
Speaker 2: knew the very first ones, but I wanted something very
Speaker 2: different than the original concept of the play. So I
Speaker 2: was very reluctant to that. But then we had casting
Speaker 2: directors in New York, in Texas, in Mexico, in LA
Speaker 2: and there was no one as good as her. So
Speaker 2: I asked to meet with her and I told her,
Speaker 2: you know what, I admire your work, but I am
Speaker 2: very hesitant because you did the play and you might
Speaker 2: hear that.
Speaker 1: Yes, Oh my god. How did she react?
Speaker 2: She told me I didn't like what I did in
Speaker 2: the play.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, look at that.
Speaker 2: And she told me, you know, and she had a
Speaker 2: lot of things that she didn't lack in the skirt
Speaker 2: and we agree with them, and so we were in
Speaker 2: the same page.
Speaker 1: I mean, my reaction is because these are very sensitive.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: I was very scared to say that, but I was
Speaker 2: very surprised.
Speaker 1: In the movie, there's a scene where America Ferrera and
Speaker 1: her boyfriend share an intimate moment. It's not your typical
Speaker 1: teenage love scenet.
Speaker 3: Turn the lights on.
Speaker 2: I want you to see me. See this is what
Speaker 2: I look like.
Speaker 1: How did you approach such an intimate scene with two teenagers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and they didn't have a lot of experience. So,
Speaker 2: like I did meet with the two of them a
Speaker 2: few times and then we talked and they talked to me,
Speaker 2: and they were very open about what romantic experiences they
Speaker 2: had and they didn't have before. But I just impact,
Speaker 2: you know, like I want you to be comfortable. Anything
Speaker 2: that you need, will do it. This is how goe it,
Speaker 2: shoot it. And I think all that preparation and just
Speaker 2: listening and asking them questions about listening to their questions,
Speaker 2: I think that made it when once we went.
Speaker 1: There, do you remember the kind of stuff they were
Speaker 1: concerned about? Now?
Speaker 2: Were concerned that they had never had sex before. So
Speaker 2: they told me that they were concerned about that. I'm like,
Speaker 2: don't worry, you need to pretend anything, and you know,
Speaker 2: if you want to stop the camera, we can stop
Speaker 2: the camera anytime.
Speaker 1: But the part that feels the most intimate is really
Speaker 1: the moment I think they're standing in front of them
Speaker 1: the mirror, yes, yeah, and it's so small. Did they
Speaker 1: grasp the intimacy of that or did you have to
Speaker 1: work with them to like bring it inward? You know?
Speaker 2: I think that from the work we did before we shot,
Speaker 2: they were so ready when we shoot it, you know, yes,
Speaker 2: And they were both very kind and very young, and
Speaker 2: very easy going. And they trust me so much, and
Speaker 2: I trust them a lot too, And that.
Speaker 1: Is how I'd like you to be with me, dear listener,
Speaker 1: easy going, trusting, especially when I break for yet another
Speaker 1: set of ads. Welcome back to my interview with Real
Speaker 1: Women Have Curves Director Patricia Cardozo, and thank you for
Speaker 1: your undying patients. I wondered whether Cardozo, who has been
Speaker 1: working as a Latina in Hollywood for decades now, thinks
Speaker 1: we've actually made progress in terms of representation. So I
Speaker 1: want to come back a little bit too, both the
Speaker 1: question of like post Real Women Have Curves and then
Speaker 1: the future for you and for other Latino filmmakers. America
Speaker 1: was quoted as saying that she felt like as you
Speaker 1: traveled to other film festivals, she thought the floodgates were
Speaker 1: going to open for Latino filmmakers in general, and as
Speaker 1: we discussed, they haven't quite yet. Do you feel like
Speaker 1: we're at a tipping point? Do you think the twenty
Speaker 1: twenty means are different than the nineteen nineties or the
Speaker 1: two thousands or does it feel like we're still in
Speaker 1: groundhogs day.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a very good question, you know, I hope
Speaker 2: it is. But I've also lived long enough to have
Speaker 2: seen things will up and down and up and down
Speaker 2: and up and down. But I think that definitely what
Speaker 2: is different now is the awareness that we all have,
Speaker 2: like we're naming things with their names and we're saying,
Speaker 2: this is what the reality is. And I never saw
Speaker 2: that before to say, you know, these are the percentages.
Speaker 2: And there is definitely you know the fact that for
Speaker 2: the past five years I've been able to direct television.
Speaker 2: I love it so that that gives me hope.
Speaker 1: But even there, you're like, I mean I've heard people
Speaker 1: say there's basically Patricia Cardozo in the TV directing.
Speaker 2: No, there are a lot of us.
Speaker 1: There's more now, you know, but I think the rate
Speaker 1: was still at like two percent or something.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well it's still very low.
Speaker 1: Not to be a bummer, but I'm just I'm trying
Speaker 1: to put it into context. But you're seeing growth even
Speaker 1: within the female like Latina director TV director.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, there is a lot of them. We went
Speaker 2: to the Big DJA directors still meeting when we were
Speaker 2: ratifying the Boat a few weeks ago, and there were
Speaker 2: so many women. I remember because I've been a DJ
Speaker 2: I remember for twenty two years, and I would go
Speaker 2: and I would be almost the only woman, the only
Speaker 2: person of color, and there were so many women. It's
Speaker 2: just so great, And I think we all have much
Speaker 2: more awareness of how things are going. So I'm very optimistic.
Speaker 1: Besides, you know, changing studio heads, besides helping one another,
Speaker 1: what else can we do to better our numbers on screen?
Speaker 1: Is there something that we're missing that near twenty odd
Speaker 1: years since making this movie that you're like, if we
Speaker 1: only did more of X, you know, we'd be better
Speaker 1: on Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: I've never thought about that. But what came to my
Speaker 2: mind is I think outside the box, do things differently,
Speaker 2: not try to imitate the things that are already there.
Speaker 1: Be more bald, you know.
Speaker 2: Thinks ought the box. And I think that in Jealous,
Speaker 2: like the LATINX community, we need to have this personality
Speaker 2: that we're humble and work kind and we are accommodating
Speaker 2: to our people. So we have to find that, you know,
Speaker 2: just so we have to put our change. And I
Speaker 2: think that that a lot of that comes from the
Speaker 2: colonize our psychic, you know. And I do a lot
Speaker 2: of teaching, and I've been teaching at Yucice Riverside, which
Speaker 2: is forty percent LATINX and first generation students, and we
Speaker 2: talk about this in constant The most amazing, most talented
Speaker 2: filmmakers are there and they openly would say, yes, Salatino,
Speaker 2: I feel m less. I think that it's maybe it's
Speaker 2: that internal cheap that we need to work on, you know,
Speaker 2: like in my teaching, I'm not just interested in teaching
Speaker 2: is technical skills. I want you to have confidence, Yeah,
Speaker 2: to really be confident, strong, bald like you.
Speaker 1: You said you don't you don't feel that way a
Speaker 1: lot of the times, but it is how you come
Speaker 1: across yes, and that's probably been a big help in
Speaker 1: your success, you know. Well, Patrisa Cardoso, I really appreciate
Speaker 1: you coming on and talk to us about such an
Speaker 1: important film and your career as well. And I hope
Speaker 1: this isn't the last time, So thank you so much
Speaker 1: for being here.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: And speaking of Bravado. Next week, we got some real
Speaker 1: vatos locos in the studio, Jesse Barrego and Enrique Castillo
Speaker 1: aka Montana and Cruz, two true gangsters and the stars
Speaker 1: of the iconic prison film Blood In, Blood Out More
Speaker 1: Than the Movie. Season two was produced by Chloe taglia
Speaker 1: Ganbe with the help of Reynolds Gutierres and Veronica Hernandez
Speaker 1: in partnership with Iheartsmichael Tura podcast network, hosted by me
Speaker 1: Alex Fumetto, edited by Rose Reid and Chloe taglia Ganbe
Speaker 1: with the help of Side Cavedo. Executive producers are Carmen Gratto,
Speaker 1: Rose Reed, Isaac Lee, and me Alex Fomido. Sound designed
Speaker 1: by Gozzalo Messi, original music by Golden Mines, Darko and
Speaker 1: Ieme recorded at JTB Studios and Vaudeville Sound Our. Executive
Speaker 1: producers at iHeart are Gazelle Bansis and Arlene Santana. For
Speaker 1: more Michael Dudda Podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your favorite shows.