Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at
Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Coarclay and Android
Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.
Speaker 2: Pretty good day for some golf, certainly if you're in Miami.
Speaker 2: Happening at the Trump National Doral, Miami. The House Republican
Speaker 2: conference on the ground Kumbai Yah, and yes, golfing to
Speaker 2: start things off today. We expect that we will hear
Speaker 2: from House Speaker Mike Johnson a little bit later on
Speaker 2: three o'clock three thirty is going to have a news
Speaker 2: conference at Dorral, the official proceedings get rolling a closed
Speaker 2: door event with the Boss himself, Donald Trump, of course
Speaker 2: at Dorrel about an hour's drive. I read south of
Speaker 2: mar A Lago. But boy, what a weekend it was.
Speaker 2: We try to unpack all of this. Donald Trump fresh
Speaker 2: off Las Vegas. Did you see him at the craps table.
Speaker 2: He's in Las Vegas to rally the troops as if
Speaker 2: he were still in the campaign. And yeah, he did
Speaker 2: show up at a casino talked about the no taxes
Speaker 2: on tips. That's where this whole thing was born. Right
Speaker 2: here's Donald Trump in Vegas.
Speaker 3: I'll be working with Congress to get a bill on
Speaker 3: my desk that cuts taxes for workers, family, small businesses,
Speaker 3: said very importantly, keeps my promise for a thing.
Speaker 4: Cook And I know you didn't hear anything.
Speaker 2: About this, and I'm sure it had no influence on
Speaker 2: the state.
Speaker 4: But I'm sure you haven't heard.
Speaker 2: But we're going to get it for you. No tax on,
Speaker 2: no tax subcack of it. They loved it so much.
Speaker 2: Remember even Kamala Harris picked that one up. And it
Speaker 2: is potentially complicating matters for those lawmakers who are tasked
Speaker 2: with extending the Trump tax cuts. This is just scratching
Speaker 2: the surface on what we need to cover. With Laura Davison,
Speaker 2: she's with us now, off a very busy weekend. Great
Speaker 2: to see you. Your team must be breathless here. We
Speaker 2: all said the same thing at the end of last week.
Speaker 2: Are we going to this is the new normal again?
Speaker 2: We're going to do this every week.
Speaker 5: There is no slowing down, just to keep them tablism high,
Speaker 5: and it'll keep flowing.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 2: So the arc of the weekend was incredible. It started
Speaker 2: with what they're calling the Friday Night massacre parkening back
Speaker 2: to Richard Nixon, Donald Trump firing the inspectors general. This
Speaker 2: is a long list at the Departments of Defense, State, Transportation, Veterans, Affairs,
Speaker 2: Housing and Urban Development, Interior, Energy, Commerce, and Agriculture, as
Speaker 2: well as the EPA, the SBA, and the Social Security Administration.
Speaker 2: That's a pretty broad swath of government. What's the point,
Speaker 2: Why what is he doing here?
Speaker 5: And I'll note this also includes some people that he
Speaker 5: appointed to these positions when he was in office, But
Speaker 5: the inspector general, these are really the people. They're typically
Speaker 5: not well liked within their agency because they're the auditors
Speaker 5: that are looking to, you know, find holes an efficiency,
Speaker 5: you know, where things programs that aren't effective, where there
Speaker 5: may be gaps in funding and that the money's not
Speaker 5: being wisely spent.
Speaker 7: Although this is an interesting.
Speaker 5: Move for you know, someone who has had Elon Musk
Speaker 5: at his right hand side saying he wants to root out,
Speaker 5: you know, wasteful spending and all these things, it's the
Speaker 5: igs who actually go and find all of that.
Speaker 7: That would be sort of list number one and where
Speaker 7: you want to go.
Speaker 5: But this is clear that he wants to have all
Speaker 5: the people who are you know, doing this kind of
Speaker 5: work be loyalist, be in locksed up with him. This
Speaker 5: he said, this was something that normally happens. I'll just
Speaker 5: know that this is not a normal thing. Generally, these
Speaker 5: people span administrations and do not you know, do not
Speaker 5: come and go.
Speaker 2: So this is the so called deep state. I guess
Speaker 2: he's trying to get out to your point though, these
Speaker 2: are some of his own appointees, and he failed to
Speaker 2: notify Congress. You have to give him thirty days or
Speaker 2: something on that. Does that matter or does nothing matter?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 5: And with all of these, you know, there are already
Speaker 5: been some questions raised about you know, the legality of this.
Speaker 7: Could this be challenged?
Speaker 5: But you know, with the fire hose of everything that's
Speaker 5: coming in, you know that both the administration as well
Speaker 5: as sort of folks who are filing lawsuits challenging some
Speaker 5: of these moves, they have to prioritize. They can't fight
Speaker 5: everything tooth and nail.
Speaker 2: Okay, So we move on to the law loyalty tests
Speaker 2: also happening now about one hundred and sixty staffers from
Speaker 2: the National Security Council were sent home and they're calming
Speaker 2: through I guess their social media prior statements. What are
Speaker 2: they looking for?
Speaker 5: Basically looking for anyone who may have criticized Donald Trump
Speaker 5: a job and they are likely out of the job.
Speaker 7: I mean, these are folks, These are civil servants.
Speaker 5: These are not political folks, even though they work for
Speaker 5: the National Security Council. They were sent home on Wednesday.
Speaker 5: They still have their things and their desks in the
Speaker 5: White House, but they were basically informed that they would
Speaker 5: be believing had their email access access cut off, you know,
Speaker 5: immediately escorted out of the building. They now essentially to
Speaker 5: come back when they when they go to pick up
Speaker 5: their stuff. You know, most of them are assuming that
Speaker 5: they will not be coming back. Employed. They are escorted
Speaker 5: full time. It is harder for them to get on
Speaker 5: the White House campus than it is for a foreign national.
Speaker 2: Wow, this is you know, and by the one of
Speaker 2: the most high profile firings the Coastguard commandant. This is
Speaker 2: or was Admiral Linda Fagan, the first woman to lead
Speaker 2: a branch of the UA military. Is that a good
Speaker 2: look for the administration.
Speaker 5: Not particularly I don't know exactly on the reasons behind
Speaker 5: this one. But this is kind of what you see
Speaker 5: you know, Trump doing. You know, he wait wait until
Speaker 5: Friday night to announce a lot of these and these
Speaker 5: were so this is he is clearly looking at, you know,
Speaker 5: both the federal workforce as well sort of this upper
Speaker 5: echelon of management and people he wants to install his
Speaker 5: own people or you know, force people to leave.
Speaker 2: Amazing accused of an excessive focus on DEI at the
Speaker 2: Coast Guard Academy. Your point is you're probably not going
Speaker 2: to survive the scrub. If you've got shown the door
Speaker 2: for a loyalty test, you're probably not coming back.
Speaker 5: That's very i mean very very likely, you know, and
Speaker 5: a lot of times they already have people who they
Speaker 5: sort of identified to fill some of these backfiells on
Speaker 5: the lease slots. You know, I'll know that the Trump
Speaker 5: incoming Trump team is way more organized than they were
Speaker 5: the last time.
Speaker 7: There's still you know, been a lot of the kind
Speaker 7: of that first week.
Speaker 5: You know, a lot of staffers didn't have emails, so
Speaker 5: there's a lot of confusion as to exactly what's happening.
Speaker 5: But there is a plan and kind of you know,
Speaker 5: as as more people get appointed, get their Senate confirmation.
Speaker 5: These are kind of being triggled down throughout the reverr.
Speaker 2: This place well with Trump supporters though right Drain the swamp.
Speaker 2: That's what it looks like.
Speaker 7: Absolutely.
Speaker 5: The real question, though, is if you suddenly start cutting
Speaker 5: programs for things like food stamps or certain farm aid
Speaker 5: programs or things that affect.
Speaker 2: People, bump into somebody, you know.
Speaker 7: Out in the community.
Speaker 5: That's when people might sort of realize, oh, I was
Speaker 5: counting on that subsidy, or I was counting on that payment.
Speaker 5: And you know, there's a constituency for essentially every program
Speaker 5: in the federal government.
Speaker 7: That's why it exists.
Speaker 5: And you know when you start cutting things, that's when
Speaker 5: the rubber meets the road.
Speaker 2: As we spend time with Laura Davison here on Balance
Speaker 2: of Power, we almost had a trade war yesterday. Who
Speaker 2: lasted for a couple hours. Maybe we did have a
Speaker 2: trade war. Maybe it was the shortest trade war of
Speaker 2: all time, Columbia. We stepped back from the brink. I
Speaker 2: saw an email go out around eleven o'clock last night.
Speaker 2: They got this done in time for business on Monday.
Speaker 2: What started this to bring Donald Trump to threaten to
Speaker 2: twenty five percent tariff against Columbia because they've been intercepting
Speaker 2: these flights of my from the US and that seemed
Speaker 2: to be working well until now this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so the Columbia government said that they would not
Speaker 5: accept this military plane that was coming with migrants, and
Speaker 5: they were both shackled at their ankles as well.
Speaker 7: As handcuffed on their hands, and they really objected.
Speaker 2: To the fact that it was military.
Speaker 7: Was the and it was sort of a confluence of
Speaker 7: the military.
Speaker 5: They also in some of the statements that came out later,
Speaker 5: it was clear that they were concerned about sort of
Speaker 5: dignity human rights around the treatment of their own citizens
Speaker 5: coming back. So that was sort of the points of
Speaker 5: negotiation throughout the day. But this is really going to
Speaker 5: be instructive on how Trump is thinking about tariffs. He said, look,
Speaker 5: you know, this country did this thing.
Speaker 7: I didn't like.
Speaker 5: They refused these flights that I want to go. So
Speaker 5: I'm going to come out and announce a tariff, you know,
Speaker 5: effective immediately twenty five percent, and out additional sanctions and
Speaker 5: travel restrictions for the country's diplomats.
Speaker 7: And then Columbia was.
Speaker 5: Forced to immediately respond because a twenty five percent tariff
Speaker 5: on anything coming into the US would have been a
Speaker 5: really big deal for them, and with an amount of
Speaker 5: matter of five six, seven hours, they were able to
Speaker 5: come to some sort of resolution that both the Columbian
Speaker 5: government was happy with and Trump was happy with, at
Speaker 5: least for the time being. We'll see if this drops up.
Speaker 5: But this is really the question as everyone's looking towards
Speaker 5: February one, which of course is the date that Trump
Speaker 5: has said he wants to impose tariffs on Mexico, China
Speaker 5: or sorry, Mexico, Canada and maybe China.
Speaker 7: We'll see where that lands.
Speaker 5: And you know that's six days away, that's Saturday, So
Speaker 5: it's unclear if the terrifts are actually coming or if
Speaker 5: that's really more of a starting point for negotiation.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, that's a nice looking economy. You got there
Speaker 2: be a shamed of something happened to it. We haven't
Speaker 2: even talked about deep seek. We have a minute left.
Speaker 2: This is the story of the day at Bloomberg. The
Speaker 2: markets are falling out of bed over this, and Donald
Speaker 2: Trump at some point is going to have to respond.
Speaker 2: I suspect, unless you're gonna tell me he has already
Speaker 2: considering the TikTok divest or ban. Is this the next
Speaker 2: app to be banned by the Trump administration?
Speaker 7: It certainly could be.
Speaker 5: You know, we know from all the statements last week
Speaker 5: and the executive orders and the big press conference at
Speaker 5: the White House that he is very focused on AI.
Speaker 5: He says he wants to be dominant in AI. And
Speaker 5: this is the kind of thing that Donald Trump is
Speaker 5: very scared about that China is going to come and
Speaker 5: sort of usurp the US's lunch. So I expect that
Speaker 5: we will see some response from him soon if he
Speaker 5: hasn't announced something in the past couple minutes.
Speaker 2: Since our national security implications here potentially right if for
Speaker 2: scooping up Americans data, it's kind of like TikTok all
Speaker 2: over again.
Speaker 5: But you know, with even more access to emails, access
Speaker 5: to location data.
Speaker 2: It's a watching Gmail and your phone number. Good lord,
Speaker 2: And it's only noontime on a Monday. As I said,
Speaker 2: just think of the week that Laura is going to have.
Speaker 2: We'll go through this together with the help of Laura
Speaker 2: and her team. Thank you as always for being with
Speaker 2: us here on Balance of Power. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington.
Speaker 2: We're going to go deep on deep Seek coming up
Speaker 2: next with an expert on AI from CSIS. We sit
Speaker 2: down with Gregory Allen next. Only here on Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcasts. Catch
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple,
Speaker 1: Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You
Speaker 1: can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship
Speaker 1: New York State Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 2: This is a tough market, but we need to get
Speaker 2: the facts here and we'll get back with Charlie in
Speaker 2: a bit to see how this is evolving, hopefully not
Speaker 2: regressing a more than six hundred and sixty point loss.
Speaker 2: Here on the NASDAC that vis is up twenty five percent.
Speaker 2: It's kind of all you need to know, and it
Speaker 2: has everything to do with deep Seek, as Charlie was
Speaker 2: just mentioning, it's where we started our day here. Everybody
Speaker 2: woke up to this news on the terminal. How many
Speaker 2: notifications about deep seek did you have or had you
Speaker 2: already downloaded it? Maybe you're part of this whole story,
Speaker 2: enter Jevins' paradox. Maybe you saw the tweet from Satya Nadella,
Speaker 2: the CEO of Microsoft. Jevins Paradox strikes again. He writes,
Speaker 2: as AI gets more efficient and accessible, we will see
Speaker 2: its use skyrocket. He's defining it here, turning it into
Speaker 2: a commodity. We just can't get enough of. Interesting and
Speaker 2: a great place to start our conversation with Gregory Allen.
Speaker 2: You've met Gregory before on this program. He is one
Speaker 2: of the foremost experts on AI in the nation's capital
Speaker 2: and in fact director of the Wadwani AI Center at CSIS,
Speaker 2: the Center for Strategic and International Studies, former Director of
Speaker 2: Strategy and Policy at the Department of Defense Joint Artificial
Speaker 2: Intelligence Center. This is the guy you need to hear
Speaker 2: from today. It's great to have you back. I can
Speaker 2: only imagine your thoughts when you see an AI story
Speaker 2: explode like this in the mainstream media. I've got a
Speaker 2: lot of specific answers questions for you that hopefully you
Speaker 2: will have answers to. But in terms of Jevins Paradox,
Speaker 2: why does it matter here?
Speaker 4: So? I think the stock market is looking at Deep
Speaker 4: Seek and they're saying, oh my gosh, here is a
Speaker 4: company who has found a way to make pretty high
Speaker 4: quality AI much more widely available for much cheaper. So
Speaker 4: therefore the price performance of a company like open Ai,
Speaker 4: how are they going to justify that cost when suddenly
Speaker 4: it's so cheap to make? And the Jevins paradox has
Speaker 4: a really important answer to everybody who's out there shorting
Speaker 4: in Vidia or shorting myrosoft right now. It basically says
Speaker 4: that as something becomes cheaper, people want more of it.
Speaker 4: So Jevins the observation actually dates back to the Industrial Revolution,
Speaker 4: where he pointed out that steam engines are getting more
Speaker 4: and more energy efficient, but we keep using more and
Speaker 4: more coal because as we get more energy efficient, then
Speaker 4: you can economically justify using coal and an application that
Speaker 4: you couldn't before. The exact same thing is true in computing.
Speaker 4: The cost of one flop when operation of computing has
Speaker 4: dropped by oh, I don't know, twenty trillionfold since you know,
Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties when we first invented computers. But are
Speaker 4: we using more computers or we're using less computers? Are
Speaker 4: companies making more money selling computers or less money selling computers?
Speaker 4: The basic point here is that Microsoft is Thank goodness,
Speaker 4: AI is so cheap because now the universe of people
Speaker 4: who are going to want to buy it from me
Speaker 4: just grew.
Speaker 2: A lascinating What does this mean for the energy companies?
Speaker 2: By the way, it's not just the Nvidios that are down,
Speaker 2: it's the constellations and the others that we've been talking
Speaker 2: so much about clean renewable. Is it going to be nuclear?
Speaker 2: Will we still need expensive energy? If Jevins correct, well,
Speaker 2: it's the exact same phenomen decline in price as well.
Speaker 4: No, it's the exact same phenomenon just applied to the energy.
Speaker 4: If you go back ten years, how much was data
Speaker 4: centers as a share of the US electrical grid demand.
Speaker 4: It was hardly anything. But at the exact same time
Speaker 4: that computer chips got more powerful, that algorithms got more efficient,
Speaker 4: Suddenly data centers are actually a pretty reasonable chunk of
Speaker 4: the US grid, and now it's looking like they're going
Speaker 4: to consume a lot more. Well. Increasing efficiency has already
Speaker 4: been a part of that story. An Nvidia chip today
Speaker 4: is literally ten thousand times more efficient than an Nvidia
Speaker 4: chip a decade or two ago. And at the same
Speaker 4: time that they're getting more efficient, at the same time
Speaker 4: that you're using less energy per unit of computation. You're
Speaker 4: making the economic and the business case that much more
Speaker 4: attractive for every additional use case for that competition.
Speaker 2: I have to bet this all sounds pretty positive in
Speaker 2: the Grand scy So let's get to this case specifically
Speaker 2: in y Wall Street is so freaked out Deep Seek.
Speaker 2: We're told this happened with six million dollars in funding.
Speaker 2: Is that possible? Is that true?
Speaker 4: So it's which part of the story you want to say, Ok,
Speaker 4: this specific model training run. Right, when you're training an
Speaker 4: AI model, how much computation did you use on that
Speaker 4: one run? Yes, that was six million dollars worth of computation.
Speaker 4: But there's all the other model training runs that didn't work.
Speaker 4: Right When deep seek says that's what it costs, that
Speaker 4: didn't say their entire computing costs, for all of their
Speaker 4: research and development, for all the work that went into
Speaker 4: creating this model with six million dollars. They said, this
Speaker 4: one individual training run with six million dollars. Another thing
Speaker 4: to note here is part of the reason why everybody's
Speaker 4: so excited is this is a model that has reasoning capabilities.
Speaker 4: This is the advance that Opening Eye came out with
Speaker 4: in that one series of models in September of last year. Well,
Speaker 4: it turns out what deep seek has proved is that
Speaker 4: upgrading a pretty decent base model think like GP, to
Speaker 4: a reasoning model that is actually not as computationally intensive
Speaker 4: as had been understood widely in the press. But inside
Speaker 4: the big AI companies, opening eye Anthropic, they already knew
Speaker 4: all of this. They were already benefiting from all of this.
Speaker 4: Recall that Sam Altman said that three the most advanced
Speaker 4: category of model, the one that was blowing away benchmarks.
Speaker 4: In December of twenty twenty four, he said, the price
Speaker 4: of giving away that model usage free, right, So costs
Speaker 4: are coming down for everyone, not just for deep Seek.
Speaker 4: What deep Seek is doing is replicating a series of
Speaker 4: research that American AI companies had already been benefiting from.
Speaker 4: They just weren't sharing it loudly and publicly.
Speaker 2: Okay, did this company get its hands on in Vidia
Speaker 2: chips or did it reinvent the wheel with some kind
Speaker 2: of popcorn chip that had stacked in a way that
Speaker 2: we've never seen before.
Speaker 4: So according to this company, according to deep Seek, they
Speaker 4: used in video chips all right, but they specifically used
Speaker 4: in Vidia H eight hundred chips. So Folks who watched
Speaker 4: the export controls debate in Washington export control policy in
Speaker 4: Washington closely, such as myself, you may remember that in
Speaker 4: October twenty twenty two, that's when the Biden administration launched
Speaker 4: this AI chip restrictions export controls strategy. But they got
Speaker 4: the performance thresholds wrong. They thought that they were saying, oh,
Speaker 4: you have to buy two generations old of in Vidia chips.
Speaker 4: But what in Vidia found out is actually, if we
Speaker 4: make this one tweak to our existing best in class chips,
Speaker 4: they're actually legal to sell. So there was a whereas
Speaker 4: the Biden administration was under the impression that they were
Speaker 4: putting China under like a fifty or sixty percent performance penalty,
Speaker 4: actually they were only imposing like a ten percent performance penalty.
Speaker 4: And there was an entire year between October twenty twenty
Speaker 4: two and October twenty twenty three when it was illegal
Speaker 4: to sell unlimited numbers of these eight eight hundred chips.
Speaker 2: So this is the whole story.
Speaker 4: This is the story they have been. Export controls have
Speaker 4: a lagging effect. Right, It's not like you stop selling
Speaker 4: it and everything that's already in China magically blows up. Right,
Speaker 4: They still have what they already bought. And in this case,
Speaker 4: we are dealing with the failure of the design of
Speaker 4: the export control architecture of October twenty twenty two. Later
Speaker 4: this year, we're going to start living through the success
Speaker 4: story of the October twenty three architecture the December twenty
Speaker 4: twenty four architecture. And it came out of the mouth
Speaker 4: of deeps Sikh's CEO. He said, the number one challenge
Speaker 4: my company faces is US export controls. Right when Biden
Speaker 4: and Shijingping meet to discuss foreign policy issues time and again,
Speaker 4: I've heard this from Biden administration officials time and again,
Speaker 4: Shujingping changes the topic back to these export controls and
Speaker 4: why he needs them to go away immediately. He's not
Speaker 4: asking to get rid of them because they aren't working.
Speaker 4: He's asking to get rid of them because they are working,
Speaker 4: because they are imposing significant costs. Now, I don't want
Speaker 4: to suggest that there's no legitimate technical innovation underpinning this
Speaker 4: new Deepseek model release. There's some legitimately impressive stuff in here.
Speaker 4: Folks who work at American AI labs are reading these papers.
Speaker 4: They are seeing innovations they can use think about what
Speaker 4: advantages America can secure that are durable and hard to replicate,
Speaker 4: and what advantages China can secure that are durable and
Speaker 4: hard to replicate. All of the algorithmic innovation, all of
Speaker 4: the architectural innovation that is represented in this deep Seak model,
Speaker 4: one percent of it is available to American a companies.
Speaker 4: They get to copy any new innovation. By contrast, all
Speaker 4: the computational advantages that American companies have, Chinese companies can't
Speaker 4: copy that because they can't make the chips fascinating.
Speaker 2: So I'm listening to you and I'm I'm amazed by
Speaker 2: everything you're telling me, and I'm wondering why all these
Speaker 2: stocks are down today well and making the case to
Speaker 2: buy a video.
Speaker 4: Well, I would say, in the long term, the stock
Speaker 4: market is based on truth, but in the short term
Speaker 4: sometimes it's based on vibes. And the vibes pretty.
Speaker 2: Much today is what's going on.
Speaker 4: That would be my strong impression.
Speaker 2: I mean, this isn't Blackwell we're talking about, it's not
Speaker 2: Ruben we're talking about.
Speaker 4: Right, We're talking about deep Seat and it's it's legitimately
Speaker 4: important right there. This is an update in what people
Speaker 4: think is possible. But it's an update that folks who
Speaker 4: have been living in the AI industry are familiar with.
Speaker 4: Right right now, we're living in the world of GPT
Speaker 4: four is the base model. One is the sort of
Speaker 4: reasoning model updates. But I remember when GPT two came
Speaker 4: out and it was trained on a supercomputer, and now
Speaker 4: it runs on my laptop. And I remember when GPT
Speaker 4: three came out and it was trained on a supercomputer,
Speaker 4: and now it runs on my laptop. So the point
Speaker 4: is here, there is no real update in paradigm. Computers
Speaker 4: start in supercomputers and they end up in personal devices,
Speaker 4: and that has been the trend literally since Alan Turning
Speaker 4: invented the first computer during World War Two. It gets faster, smaller, cheaper.
Speaker 4: But at the same time you have to ask yourself
Speaker 4: what kind of durable competitive advantages can we create? And
Speaker 4: I think it's worth pointing out that we are on
Speaker 4: the cusp of a threshold. Right Sam Altman himself last
Speaker 4: year early last year said that the performance of his
Speaker 4: model was quote mildly embarrassing at best, and he had
Speaker 4: the best one in the world. But the point is
Speaker 4: we are maybe a year year away, maybe a handful
Speaker 4: of years away. From AI models being able to perform
Speaker 4: so many different tasks in the global economy, and in
Speaker 4: some cases being able to do so at better than
Speaker 4: world expert levels. So we are approaching this threshold when
Speaker 4: AI will go from useful for some things, fun for
Speaker 4: some things, to shockingly useful at so many things. And
Speaker 4: the companies and the countries that crossed that threshold first
Speaker 4: are going to have an extraordinary first mover advantage.
Speaker 2: That's not what we're talking about here, though we're out
Speaker 2: of time.
Speaker 4: Basically, this is all we got to talk about.
Speaker 2: One more things, well, forty five seconds, go for it.
Speaker 4: Deepseek is having major outages right now. They have attracted
Speaker 4: a lot of attention, They've got a lot of new
Speaker 4: users being attacked. They are not being attacked. They have
Speaker 4: run out of chips. It is the exact same story
Speaker 4: as when Gina Romando went to China in mid twenty
Speaker 4: twenty four and they said that Huawe had a new phone,
Speaker 4: but they couldn't make enough chips for them. Now they
Speaker 4: don't have enough chips to run the data centers to
Speaker 4: serve the users who want to use deep Seek.
Speaker 2: While way two point zero.
Speaker 4: Here, it's a very similar repeat of the.
Speaker 2: Story amazing, aren't you glad? We had Gregory back with
Speaker 2: us today on Balance of Power. Fantastic csis. He's the
Speaker 2: mind you want to talk to and hear from today
Speaker 2: on Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on
Speaker 1: Apple Cockley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App.
Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch
Speaker 1: us live on YouTube.
Speaker 9: While we have heard from the AI cryptos are David Sachs,
Speaker 9: we have yet to hear from the President of the
Speaker 9: United States Supports just a week now into his term,
Speaker 9: but he is busy today. In fact, he was spending
Speaker 9: the early portion of today golfing at his Derau resort.
Speaker 2: Yeah about that, lord, little morning golf, a little lunch,
Speaker 2: I guess at poolside? Did you see this one hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty five foot slide at the pool? Are the
Speaker 2: members using the slide this week? They might have to
Speaker 2: take the plunge on a couple of things here, Kayley,
Speaker 2: this is interesting as we've talked about one bill or two,
Speaker 2: what's the agenda going to be? This is apparently the
Speaker 2: two day retreat that's going to decide at all.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's what we're referring to.
Speaker 9: Hear the Republican Conference retreat into Ralph, Florida, where Donald
Speaker 9: Trump will be speaking behind closed doors this evening to lawmakers,
Speaker 9: potentially outlining the way in which he'd like them to
Speaker 9: move forward on his legislative agenda. So for more insight
Speaker 9: on this. Now, joining us in our Washington, d C.
Speaker 9: Studio is Sarah chamberlinch He's president CEO of the Republican
Speaker 9: Main Street Partnership. Welcome back to Balance of Power, Sarah,
Speaker 9: I do wonder what Main Street members are planning to
Speaker 9: say in return to Donald Trump about the way in
Speaker 9: which they would advise his legislative agenda be pursued.
Speaker 10: Well, the first thing is they are going down the slide.
Speaker 10: I'm open with this type margin.
Speaker 3: Nobody gets hurt.
Speaker 10: So some of have played golf for them.
Speaker 3: But what they're really advising is one they need one
Speaker 3: bill and they need to have make sure salt is
Speaker 3: in it.
Speaker 10: Immigration is Immigration will definitely be in it. But they're
Speaker 10: really pushing salt.
Speaker 3: It means a great deal to our California members, New
Speaker 3: York members, and actually our New Jersey members, So there's
Speaker 3: one area that they're pushing him hard at.
Speaker 2: So how much of this is pep rally of versus
Speaker 2: negotiation versus productivity. You've got a lot of factions, as
Speaker 2: we've discussed in this Republican conference. Is at Donald Trump's
Speaker 2: job to bring them together and so they can come
Speaker 2: back to Washington to start writing legislation or to make
Speaker 2: a deal that they can go home with.
Speaker 10: So I think it's really believe they're not going to
Speaker 10: be a combination of both.
Speaker 3: He is trying to rally them, get them on the
Speaker 3: same page, have them spend time together doing fun activities
Speaker 3: like we already mentioned and playing some golf. But there
Speaker 3: is a lot of business that's being discussed as well.
Speaker 3: You know, the one bill they need to budget wrecked.
Speaker 3: I mean they need to get all these things done
Speaker 3: by the end of February and then go into the
Speaker 3: hopefully the one bill.
Speaker 10: I'm really I've I.
Speaker 3: Wasn't sure about one bill or two, but now I'm
Speaker 3: convinced it's one bill because I think we are going
Speaker 3: to have to have some Democratic help. So one bill
Speaker 3: it's a little bit easier for the Democrats to swallow.
Speaker 9: Well, so does John Thune need to be part of
Speaker 9: this retreat as well. It's one thing for House Republicans
Speaker 9: and the President to be on the same page, but
Speaker 9: the senate's the other factor here.
Speaker 3: It certainly is, And I know the Speaker is very
Speaker 3: much in touch with a Senator, so I know he's
Speaker 3: not there, but I would be surprised if the Speaker's
Speaker 3: not on the phone with him occasionally this weekend.
Speaker 2: Interesting. You just mentioned some of the ingredients here, not
Speaker 2: the least of which assaults were pun intended. But you've
Speaker 2: got no tax on tips. We talked to Kevin Brady
Speaker 2: about this at the end of last week. No tax
Speaker 2: on overtime. So many different things that would be put
Speaker 2: into one bill that you start wondering what gets left out.
Speaker 2: Are we going to have a debt ceiling as part
Speaker 2: of this? Will emergency funding for wildfires and hurricanes be
Speaker 2: part of this? Because now we're in a world where
Speaker 2: there's something for everyone and no one can say no,
Speaker 2: that's true.
Speaker 10: I definitely think the emergency funding will be put into it,
Speaker 10: not sure, but other things. But this is going to
Speaker 10: be a massive bill. I mean, there's no doubt about that.
Speaker 3: It's going to encompass a lot of things that the House,
Speaker 3: frankly has needed and needs to get done. So hopefully
Speaker 3: the Senate, fingers crossed, will go along with some of
Speaker 3: these initiatives are in this bill. But the other reason
Speaker 3: they want it in one bill is because we all
Speaker 3: know there's some Republicans that do not vote like Republicans,
Speaker 3: don't really care about what the leadership thinks, and they
Speaker 3: have to pick some of the Democrats off to get
Speaker 3: it through, which means you have to put things in
Speaker 3: the bill that the Democrats want, like the funding for
Speaker 3: California fire in North Carolina, and we already talked about salt.
Speaker 3: So it's an interesting play here, but it's going to
Speaker 3: be a huge bill and there's really nothing you can
Speaker 3: do about it.
Speaker 9: Well, and huge in terms of potential price tag as
Speaker 9: well when we're thinking of dollar figures. And some of
Speaker 9: those members you're referring to are people who are very
Speaker 9: fiscally conservative and want to see requisite spending cuts along
Speaker 9: with this. What give us an idea of the pay
Speaker 9: fors that are actually going to be discussed over the
Speaker 9: next few days in these rooms.
Speaker 3: So the pay fors they're going to go through with
Speaker 3: Elon mus help go through every single division in the
Speaker 3: government and see where they can cut Medicare, Medicaid. I
Speaker 3: know they've talked about that social Security. I don't really
Speaker 3: see that being viable down at the end. I don't
Speaker 3: think the members of the republic Community Partnership would vote
Speaker 3: for cut in those three areas. But there is a
Speaker 3: lot of waste in the federal government. I mean, let's
Speaker 3: be honest here, So if we can find some of
Speaker 3: that for offsets, that's where they'd prefer to go. But
Speaker 3: we also do know Donald Trump. President Trump does not
Speaker 3: mind debt. I mean he has in his personal business.
Speaker 3: I mean he doesn't mind debt. I realized there's some
Speaker 3: Democrats or some Republicans that are really opposed to it,
Speaker 3: but the President really is not opposed to it. So
Speaker 3: I think that he'll be comfortable with not finding total offsets.
Speaker 2: Called himself the King of debt, if you remember that
Speaker 2: a couple of years, so he did. Why not get
Speaker 2: a little more With that said, then you start wondering
Speaker 2: about the calendar and a very ambitious approach. At one
Speaker 2: point by Mike Johnson, he said he wanted a budget
Speaker 2: bill up for a vote the end of February. That
Speaker 2: would require a small mirror. At this point, I assume,
Speaker 2: what's the realistic timetable here? They have a few months
Speaker 2: to play.
Speaker 3: With, they do they really have them till the end
Speaker 3: of the year, so but please let's not go to
Speaker 3: the end of the year, please. I think March, probably
Speaker 3: March into April is a realistic in the first half,
Speaker 3: hopefully in the first stelf because there is other business
Speaker 3: that they need to get onto, so they're hoping by
Speaker 3: the holiday break in April, they hope to have something done.
Speaker 3: That song is going to have to be. We're running
Speaker 3: out of money. So I'm fortunate to get taken care
Speaker 3: of last year. I understand that I actually agreed with
Speaker 3: President Trump that he wanted to get it done then,
Speaker 3: so that that needs to get done again the first
Speaker 3: first quarter of this year. So a lot on the
Speaker 3: table that needs to get done before April.
Speaker 9: Well, especially when you consider the Treasury Department already for
Speaker 9: the last week has been implementing extraordinary extraordinary measures that
Speaker 9: I only can go so far potentially to the summer
Speaker 9: if we're lucky. I do wonder though, and you refer
Speaker 9: to what Donald Trump was asking for at the end
Speaker 9: of last year, if it's going to be just a
Speaker 9: temporary extension of the debt ceiling for some period of time,
Speaker 9: or if his suggestion that should be done away with
Speaker 9: entirely is something that can become reality.
Speaker 3: I know that the Republic Mainstreat Partnership members would pretty
Speaker 3: much like it done entirely.
Speaker 10: I actually Elizabeth.
Speaker 3: Warren, Senator Warren agrees with us on that, which I
Speaker 3: don't think has ever happened before. But it would be
Speaker 3: better for the country than we wouldn't have to go
Speaker 3: through this exercise. We always end up increasing it anyway,
Speaker 3: so it'd be nice to get it off the table.
Speaker 3: But that's going to have to get done in the
Speaker 3: next few weeks.
Speaker 2: We talk about spending cuts, there are some areas that
Speaker 2: you've isolated where spending increases could in fact be the case,
Speaker 2: and the Pentagon is going to be one of them.
Speaker 2: Rick Davis was the first to mention the first trillion
Speaker 2: dollar defense budget. Will that be the story in this bill,
Speaker 2: that we're talking about a trillion dollars on the Pentagon?
Speaker 10: I think it will be. It's going to be.
Speaker 2: Main Street would be behind that.
Speaker 3: I think so at least most of the members obviously
Speaker 3: one of our members, Ken Calvert, is the appropriator over
Speaker 3: the Defense Department. But we've given a lot to Ukraine.
Speaker 10: We have to.
Speaker 3: Rebuild what we've given to Ukraine, so that's part of
Speaker 3: this as well. Plus we need new technology. I don't
Speaker 3: know if if we're going to fight any more ground wars,
Speaker 3: it's probably going to be Intelligence Awards AI type wars.
Speaker 10: So we need to upper a game in that area.
Speaker 3: And then, of course, I know he wants to spend
Speaker 3: some of the money on the border for the immigration problem.
Speaker 9: To that point, how does the mainstream partnership? But how
Speaker 9: do the members feel about the way in which the
Speaker 9: border crackdown is going so far? The deportations. We've seen
Speaker 9: a very small trade war that started and ended, it
Speaker 9: seemed over the weekend over the deportation of migrants. Are
Speaker 9: they happy with everything they're seeing?
Speaker 3: They're absolutely happy with it. I mean, immigration is number
Speaker 3: one issue. I think that's probably why President Trump was
Speaker 3: able to be elected again, and they want the border
Speaker 3: cleaned up, and the people in their districts want this
Speaker 3: border cleaned up. So I think he had a very
Speaker 3: successful so far, so good on that. And it was
Speaker 3: kind of interesting to see how he dealt with the President.
Speaker 3: President kind of caved. President Trump said, Okay, we won't
Speaker 3: send them on military plans, we send them on commercial
Speaker 3: So I think there's some negotiation there. It worked out,
Speaker 3: and we'll continue to send them home.
Speaker 2: So that's the playbook that he prove that tariff's work.
Speaker 10: I think you did.
Speaker 3: I think it's no doubt about it. I mean they
Speaker 3: came to the table pretty quickly on that.
Speaker 2: Just the threat of a tariff just exactly interesting. Here
Speaker 2: we are again, Sarah Chamberlin. Great to see you. Seems
Speaker 2: unfair somehow, seventy five degrees in Miami, but there's still
Speaker 2: snow on the ground, but you're here with us. We're
Speaker 2: lucky for that. My apologies, although we do want pictures
Speaker 2: of the slide from the Republican Main Street Partnership, Sarah Chamberlain,
Speaker 2: one of the most connected Republican voices that will bring
Speaker 2: you here on this program. When they come back, they're
Speaker 2: gonna have a lot of work to do.
Speaker 4: Killie.
Speaker 9: Yeah, and they're going to have to do it in
Speaker 9: pretty short order, do you hear, Sarah, Just a matter
Speaker 9: of weeks to deal with the debt ceiling. Maybe we're
Speaker 9: not going to push it so close to the X state.
Speaker 2: You said the two words extraordinary measures. That's our reality
Speaker 2: right now. We'll have a lot more with our panel
Speaker 2: coming up next. Rick Davis and Genie Shanzano are with
Speaker 2: us on the Monday edition to Balance and Power. We're
Speaker 2: glad you are too.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcasts. Catch
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm E's durn
Speaker 1: on Apple Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app.
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our
Speaker 1: flagship New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 9: Rest assured that Washington is taking note of what we're
Speaker 9: seeing in financial markets today, all of it, of course
Speaker 9: precipitated by deep seek and concerns over potential cheaper but
Speaker 9: just as capable technology coming from China, something that the
Speaker 9: US has been trying to prevent through export controls and
Speaker 9: other means, and certainly something that is likely to get
Speaker 9: the attention of this income or just brand new Trump
Speaker 9: administration one week in keeping in mind that the President
Speaker 9: has signed executive orders within the last few days pertaining
Speaker 9: to artificial intelligence and announced a near half a trillion
Speaker 9: dollar AI infrastructure development deal between Oracle and SoftBank and
Speaker 9: Open Ai, who may now find themselves having to compete
Speaker 9: with Deep Seek. All of it, of course, in the
Speaker 9: midst of what has been a flurry of other executive
Speaker 9: action unrelated to artificial intelligence, but some of it related
Speaker 9: to new generation technology of another type. Joe as Bloomberg
Speaker 9: has learned that today Donald Trump is preparing an executive
Speaker 9: order to create a next generation defense shield to protect
Speaker 9: the US against ballistic missiles. This is the US iron Dome.
Speaker 9: We've long heard him teasing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he talked about this on the campaign, t really
Speaker 2: talked about it in his first term. I'm not sure
Speaker 2: how that would work. We're talking about a much larger
Speaker 2: area we would need to defense where Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: this isn't they Actually it's not a real dome. We
Speaker 2: actually need to send missiles up. You've seen this in
Speaker 2: use in the skies over Israel. Would require uncounted numbers
Speaker 2: of ground to air missiles interceptors essentially, and would be
Speaker 2: a boon for defense contractors like Raytheon if it were
Speaker 2: to happen.
Speaker 9: Well and the newly minted Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth seems
Speaker 9: on board. When he arrived at the Pentagon for his
Speaker 9: first real day of work in that job, he talked
Speaker 9: about this idea as well as some other initiatives. Now
Speaker 9: that he thinks to jd Vance casting the tie breaking
Speaker 9: vote has.
Speaker 10: Been able to take over as the helm of that department.
Speaker 2: That was the moment late Friday, jd Vance in the
Speaker 2: motorcade to cast the deciding vote that made indeed Pete
Speaker 2: Hegseth the new Secretary of Defense. If you're with us
Speaker 2: on Bloomberg TV or on YouTube, you see his arrival
Speaker 2: there at the Pentagon a bit earlier today at Chile
Speaker 2: Monday morning in Washington in January. And that's where we
Speaker 2: start with our signature panel. Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick Davis
Speaker 2: and Genie Shanzino are with us. She is Democratic analyst
Speaker 2: and political science professor at Iona University. Rick is Republican
Speaker 2: strategist and partner at Stone Court Capital. Genie, what does
Speaker 2: it tell you when jd Vance has to cast the
Speaker 2: deciding vote on such an important appointment?
Speaker 8: It tells us that, you know, the margin that they're
Speaker 8: working with in the Senate is very slim, and I
Speaker 8: think many of us thought that perhaps McConnell would go
Speaker 8: no only if there was a fourth no, but that's
Speaker 8: not what he did. He went no regardless of that.
Speaker 8: And so that means that in my mind at least,
Speaker 8: questions not only about Trump's upcoming nominations who are controversial
Speaker 8: like Gabbard and RFK Junior this week and cash Ptel,
Speaker 8: but also Trump's agenda. Does Mitch McConnell turn out to be,
Speaker 8: I don't know, the new Lisa Murkowski or Susan Collins
Speaker 8: or Joe Manchin on the Democratic side who's willing to
Speaker 8: stand up and say no to Donald Trump. And that
Speaker 8: is going to mean that Donald Trump's either going to
Speaker 8: have to pull some Democrats, which is unlikely if he's
Speaker 8: lost Murkowski, Collins and of course McConnell, or is he
Speaker 8: going to play ball with McConnell on things he cares about,
Speaker 8: like national security and also Senate rules. So there is
Speaker 8: a lot that this portends that we just don't know
Speaker 8: how it's going to play out.
Speaker 9: Well, and we also don't know how things will go
Speaker 9: down in committee on Thursday, when Tulsi Gabbard, who Genie
Speaker 9: just mentioned, rick will have her confirmation hearing, knowing she's
Speaker 9: faced a great deal of scrutiny for past behaviors, including
Speaker 9: a visit to Syria some years ago. This is actually
Speaker 9: something that Senator Lindsay Graham, Republican Senator I would add,
Speaker 9: spoke about on Meet the Press yesterday.
Speaker 6: I tend to vote for almost everybody at both parties,
Speaker 6: but I want to see how the hearing goes. Why
Speaker 6: didn't you go to Syria? What did you do regarding
Speaker 6: the side. Why do you think Edward Snowden should be
Speaker 6: haill as a hero? I certainly don't. We'll see how
Speaker 6: the hearing goes. But in her favor, Richard Burr is
Speaker 6: going to introduce her, and he's one of my dearest friends.
Speaker 2: So we'll see.
Speaker 9: Rick. There's a few questions I could ask you around this,
Speaker 9: one being just how you view Tulsi Gabbert's prospects right
Speaker 9: now ahead of this hearing. The other being what impact
Speaker 9: will the shepherding of Richard Burr have for her?
Speaker 10: Yeah?
Speaker 11: I think, first of all, you know, you've got a
Speaker 11: pretty compliant Republican caucus. Someone told me over the weekend
Speaker 11: when these votes were being taken that there are a
Speaker 11: lot of senators Republican senators think they're John McCain, but
Speaker 11: they act like Tom Tillis, and that is kind of
Speaker 11: a you know, way to think about it. You know,
Speaker 11: they think they're going to be tough, they think they're
Speaker 11: going to run these people through their marks, and then
Speaker 11: what they wind up doing is going along with the president.
Speaker 11: In some cases it's re election fear. Some cases, it's
Speaker 11: not worth the agony to be set up. In some
Speaker 11: cases they have other priorities that they want to get done.
Speaker 11: I mean, the Lindsay Graham comments are really instructive. Lindsay
Speaker 11: Graham does usually vote favorably for both Republican and Democratic senators, judges,
Speaker 11: you name it. He thinks that's the president's prerogative, and
Speaker 11: a lot of senators feel that way. They would have
Speaker 11: to have something extraordinary and to march in a former
Speaker 11: senator who was the chairman of the Intelligence Committee and
Speaker 11: who was well liked amongst the caucus members to introduce
Speaker 11: Tulsea Gabbert, you know, smart move, and he's got nothing
Speaker 11: to lose.
Speaker 2: He could do whatever he wants to do this.
Speaker 11: Free time, and he chooses to come back to DC
Speaker 11: in front for her nomination. Look, I mean I think,
Speaker 11: as we've just recounted, there are three consistent votes against
Speaker 11: people who probably shouldn't be in these jobs. The question
Speaker 11: is who's that fourth person? And that I think is
Speaker 11: really hard to figure out.
Speaker 2: Interesting we weren't supposed to know about Richard Burr. I
Speaker 2: guess Lindsey Graham let that slip. So that must have
Speaker 2: been an interesting moment for Richard Burr, who will be
Speaker 2: you know, not only walking her around and doing the
Speaker 2: meetings and so forth. I guess introducing her before the
Speaker 2: confirmation hearing, Genie. But Richard Burr, of course, this is
Speaker 2: a former chair of the Intelligence Committee, has been offering
Speaker 2: advice and counsel in recent weeks. Here will he improve
Speaker 2: her chances of being confirmed?
Speaker 8: I think he will. Certainly. He knows how this is
Speaker 8: going to play out for her in the hearing. He
Speaker 8: knows what to tell her to watch out for. And
Speaker 8: we heard Tom Caughton on Fox News over the weekend
Speaker 8: saying essentially that she is going to have a fair hearing.
Speaker 8: But it interesting when you hear that because what he
Speaker 8: is saying is I'll guarantee the process, but not the outcome,
Speaker 8: which suggests that there may be a fourth no out
Speaker 8: there somewhere, if not more, Tulca Gabbard is the one
Speaker 8: who's most likely to go down, although historically once you
Speaker 8: get to the hearing, that's a you know, that's not
Speaker 8: something that usually happens. And it's all the issues that
Speaker 8: Kaylie mentioned, and then it's her flip flopping on seven
Speaker 8: oh two, which has been troubling to many on the
Speaker 8: particularly the Republican side. So this is somebody who we're
Speaker 8: going to have to watch for, along with of course
Speaker 8: Cash Battel this week, and of course there's other hearings
Speaker 8: as well, including RFK Junior, and those are the three
Speaker 8: sort of most controversial that Trump has nominated.
Speaker 9: Well, but when we consider the president Genie fresh off
Speaker 9: what ultimately, though hard fought, was a victory in getting
Speaker 9: Pete Hegseth confirmed then maybe the shortest ever trade war
Speaker 9: in the US and Colombia to make sure that migrants
Speaker 9: could be deported back to that country on military aircraft
Speaker 9: through threat of tariffs, and the Colombian president quickly agreed
Speaker 9: to Trump's terms. We understand, is this not a lesson
Speaker 9: that Donald Trump by and large is getting what he.
Speaker 7: Wants, at least for now.
Speaker 9: Why would we believe that there is going to be
Speaker 9: an exception to that rule so early in this term.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I wouldn't suggest that we know she's going to
Speaker 8: go down. I think the thinking is she's the most
Speaker 8: vulnerable of those left. That doesn't mean by any stretch
Speaker 8: of the imagination, she goes down. And Donald Trump is
Speaker 8: having a very good first week. But let's not forget
Speaker 8: what just happened. And you were just talking about the
Speaker 8: Chinese came out and they shot the gun over the bow.
Speaker 8: There is no question on the timing here of the
Speaker 8: Chinese coming out with all of this information on Deep Seek,
Speaker 8: not just how much it cost, but what was involved
Speaker 8: in the creation. That is a warning that Donald Trump's
Speaker 8: smooth sailing may not be so smooth around the world,
Speaker 8: that this competition is very real. So, yes, He's got
Speaker 8: some important short term wins here, but it is not
Speaker 8: going to be smooth sailing. It never is for the president.
Speaker 2: I keep asking Rick on this Deep Seek matter, why
Speaker 2: not if you're Donald Trump, why not just ban it
Speaker 2: if it's scooping up a Gmail accounts and phone numbers
Speaker 2: of Americans? Or would that make it more difficult for
Speaker 2: him to rationalize keeping TikTok around. Yeah, well he.
Speaker 11: Could always flip flop on TikTok again, right, I mean, like,
Speaker 11: why don't we just come to agreement that these pernicious
Speaker 11: kind of businesses that are really sponsored by the Chinese
Speaker 11: Communist Party and are collecting enormous amount of data on
Speaker 11: everything we do in our lives should not be allowed
Speaker 11: to prosper in the United States.
Speaker 2: It's not.
Speaker 11: And I think that if you have consistency in the administration,
Speaker 11: you'd look at this and many of these other apps
Speaker 11: that are people flocking to outside of TikTok and you'd
Speaker 11: shut them down immediately. And why I give access to
Speaker 11: our data and our information when we don't have reciprocity
Speaker 11: in China? Simply put, forget all the national security implications,
Speaker 11: which are not insignificant.
Speaker 2: You know, Donald Trump.
Speaker 11: Wants to make it tough for countries that don't allow
Speaker 11: our businesses to prosper in their markets. China is the
Speaker 11: worst offender, go after them first.
Speaker 9: Well, Rick, when we look at what's happening in the
Speaker 9: markets today, an Aztec one hundred now down three point
Speaker 9: three percent in video obviously is creating a massive drag
Speaker 9: over the implications for that company. But are you surprised,
Speaker 9: because I'm a little surprised that we haven't heard from
Speaker 9: Donald Trump about this yet, knowing how he likes to
Speaker 9: use the stock market as a barometer for how he
Speaker 9: himself is doing as president.
Speaker 11: Well, he hasn't put it out yet, so I mean,
Speaker 11: maybe we'll hear from him later this afternoon. But yeah,
Speaker 11: I wouldn't be surprised that we get a you know,
Speaker 11: true social post even while he's still on the golf
Speaker 11: course before the dinner tonight with Republican leadership. It says
Speaker 11: something gives the country some indication of where his mind
Speaker 11: is because it has been doing the wander a little
Speaker 11: bit on this issue, and we'd like to see it
Speaker 11: wander back to someplace that has strategic value to the
Speaker 11: United States.
Speaker 9: All right, Rick Davis and Jeanie Shanzino, our signature political panel, Thank.
Speaker 2: You so much, thanks for listening to the Balance of
Speaker 2: Power Podcasts. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already,
Speaker 2: at Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and
Speaker 2: you can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC
Speaker 2: at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.