WEBVTT - Saving Games Journalism With Giant Bomb 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:03.520 Media. 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:08.800 Hello, and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed zitron. 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:22.520 As a reminder, you can now by shirts, hoodies, and 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:24.880 even mugs in our merchandise store. There's a link in 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:27.240 the notes. God damn it, give me money. I need 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:28.480 you to wear the shirt. 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:29.160 For me today. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.320 I'm joined by the new owners of gaming site Giant Bomb, 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.000 Jeff Backlar, Jeff grub and Dan Reikert Fellas. Welcome to 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:36.400 the show. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.760 It's pronounce fair trying, okay, all right, yeah, okay, I'll speak. 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:45.120 I definitely on an interview a few days ago, miss 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:47.920 said my own name and miss said better I was 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:52.519 like a better off ship. And Matt Sawski, my producer, 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.000 regularly hears these things, so that's always fun. But congratulations, 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.080 by the way, So walk me through, Dan, perhaps walk 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.200 me through what happened. So there was some filing in 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.479 and out from Giant Bomb, and then you guys kind 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:06.000 of took it over. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:12.520 Yeah, so's I started the longest ago in like twenty fourteen. 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.479 So in terms of how the recent stuff went down, 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.399 I think the jeffs here Fellaws tell me if I'm wrong. 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:21.080 I feel like you maybe have had some more time 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:21.920 on the phone lawyer. 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:23.760 I like watching this guy sweat. 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:24.720 Let's exactly. 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:26.560 I just wanted to make sure I didn't I'm not like, 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:28.840 oh yeah, this work. You know, It's like I just 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:34.319 kind of fell into this. No, Jeff and Jeff left Fandom, 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.640 our previous parent company, and as part of the deal, 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.400 were able to buy Giant Bomb and are bringing in 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.480 you know, me Jana Choa or longtime producer and our 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:48.560 good friend Mike Manatti who has been trying to be 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.760 full time at Giant Bomb for a long time and 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.600 he completely skipped full time and went straight from contractor 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:55.160 to co owner. 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:55.960 Of the websites. 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.120 Yes, yes, so yeah, long history of corporate ownership and 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.160 you know, digging back to two thousand and eight and 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.080 you know, four different owners basically, and now I guess 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:07.240 we are the fifth group. 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.280 Nice, So what is the new structure? So you guys 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:12.960 are all the owners, You're going to be doing the 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.960 same kind of games journalism you're already doing. I know 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.440 that the YouTube channel went offline. Is it coming back? 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:19.520 Yeah? 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:21.880 Yeah, we were streaming of YouTube just right before we 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:23.959 came here. Yeah, we were doing our black club shows. 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:29.000 So right now the structure looks like are we getting 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.079 all the stuff from fandom that we need and they've 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.160 been very helpful and that stuff. But it's like just 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.799 kind of getting the keys to everything. And then there 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.320 is a whole other process of us getting a business 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.600 started because this wasn't like us necessarily buying the business. 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:44.200 We bought a lot of assets, so we have to 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.640 start our own business to sort of take these things 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.480 on and make it make sense. So in parallel, while 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.640 we were goofing off, well, Mike was playing Rascal for 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.040 the PlayStation one for our game for our show where 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.480 we played bad Games Backlar was still working in the 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.840 background making sure that we'll have a bank account and 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.519 stuff like that. But as far as like the overall 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:05.600 idea of what this company looks like, yeah, it's gonna 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.480 be us kind of taking it on all on ourselves, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.040 kind of splitting it up evenly amongst us and just 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.320 getting to work and investing in our time and seeing 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.440 a payoff because now it's all on us. 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.920 It's weird as well, because it's like both one of 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.760 the most depressing times in games journalism history, I'm one 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:27.000 of the most encouraging because the amount of layoffs are horrifying, 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.480 but you and Atamath have really come out of well, 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:32.360 I don't want to say nowhere, because it's been quite 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.920 public and chaotic. You kind of seem to be building 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:37.840 a new model for journalism writ large. 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.160 Yeah, well, yeah, I think like the thing that the 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:43.960 lesson everyone learned they learned like ten years ago, where 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:51.120 the sort of like contemporary understanding of games media or 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.880 really any media you know that covers some sort of 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:59.160 entertainment is probably not compatible with what a corporation would 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:03.640 need out of that in terms of like revenue expectations 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:05.800 and just you know, filing in in a way that 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:06.440 makes sense. 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:07.960 And that's fine. 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:12.080 And I think you know what this with the with 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.120 the Aftermath Experiment and all these other sort of independent 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:19.280 journalistic entities have sort of shown is that this can 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.719 work with a private sort of consideration of ownership as 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:27.640 opposed to you know, just having it be another asset 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.240 in the corporate media portfolio. Right that, And I think 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:36.000 the value that these types of entities present make a 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.920 lot more sense right under the guise of private ownership 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.480 than they do, you know, under the umbrella. 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.120 So kind of yeah, it kind of feels as well 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.040 like games journalism gets pulled in very hard by these 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.920 big private equity. I'm not specifically referring to any of them, 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.160 just to be clear, these large entities by them because 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.520 I imagine they're traffic drivers, and there's always news and 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.479 there's always kind of such traffic coming in games and. 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.159 Guides and stuff like that. These things have been honed 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.400 to be SEO, you know, sort of machines for a 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.240 long time. The people who've been in charge of them 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.960 have once understood that to be very important. Now, of course, 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.600 like Google has made things very complicated for a lot 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.520 of sites that built their sites in one way and 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.479 now they have to shift and no one really understands 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:21.800 the way the winds are blowing. But yeah, that traffic 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.720 means something to someone for sure, and that's why you 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.800 see something like a polygon becoming the target of a vow. 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:29.040 Now. 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.440 I guess the public understanding is bound Net approached Vox 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.479 Media about polygon, and I asked them about it like 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.000 some time ago, and have been trying to make this 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.440 happen since then. Vox wasn't necessarily shopping around, but it 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:42.800 became the target of that because it does have this traffic. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.120 It has this built in if you search for something, 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.120 there's a good chance Polygon is going to serve it 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.240 to you in the video game space. And yeah, so 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.880 these kind of equity firms they spot this and they 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.159 want to extract that value. It means bad things for 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.560 the actual people working at these sites almost universally every time. 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:01.599 And that's why this. 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:03.600 Other model of us coming and being like we're gonna 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.919 own it ourselves and we're gonna have a direct relationship 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:07.640 with the with the audience. 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.680 That kind of is the only ground to retreat to 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:11.440 at this point. 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.000 We are either going to keep having this stuff because 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.440 we're all in it together, as hopy as that sounds, 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:18.080 or we're just not gonna have it at all. 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:18.960 Those are the options now. 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.919 Yeah, it's also I think it's important to call out that, like, 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.159 there does exist a type of person that I think 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.680 we all sort of slot into in this goldilock zone 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.039 that has sat on both sides of the sort of 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:36.560 influential divide, where you know, we all began our careers 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:39.680 in a very kind of like I don't maybe not 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.200 antiquated is not the right word, but certainly a traditional 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.960 sort of like media and and and publisher relationship into 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:47.640 the relationship. 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:51.120 I worked I work CVG. 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.000 Yeah, yeah, and let's be honest, we're not that old, right, 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.600 Like we're you know, we're as young exactly. We see, 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.600 maybe we we sit in this very weird sort of 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.280 like like I said, this Goldilocks zone where we're like, 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.400 we understand what came before, what happened during, and now 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:14.480 what's after. And I think that very uniquely positions a 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:18.960 small slice of sort of institutional knowledge right where where 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:20.680 you can kind of like leverage that in a way 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:22.960 that not a lot of people have that sort of 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:24.840 insight from both sides of the fence. 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.080 And that goes back to you know, the founding of 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.000 Giant Bomb in two thousand and eight, because it was 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:30.920 four guys that broke off from game Spot, you know, 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.040 more traditional web based gaming media and formed this very 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.840 personality focused thing, you know, like kind of in the 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.600 early days of YouTube gaming personalities and things like that. 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:42.240 But it did come from that, yeah, institutional knowledge, people 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.400 that had worked you know, et threes dating back to 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:46.560 the nineties and things like that. It wasn't just you know, 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:48.920 some kids that started youtubing and getting big. It kind 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:50.400 of straddled the line from the beginning. 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.880 I met one of the saddest things to me was 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.600 watching PC zone collapse. It was the magazine I worked to, 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.600 the Games and Magazina worked to in England, and in 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.200 a different, different time, I think they would have come together, 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:04.760 we would have come together and done something. But two 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:06.520 thousand and eight was when that happened. I was moving 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.200 to America as well, but that was Future publishing Bolton 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:13.680 fuck Future, yeah shit, yeah, well they're gonna do to me, And. 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.000 They repeatedly kind of do that stuff to people say yeah, 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:20.040 fuck for real real quick on that. Like I remember thinking, 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.240 like back when that was happening in two thousand and eight, 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:24.720 when e GM and one Up was collapsing, It's like 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.040 it had the one Up Yours podcast kind of lasted 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.400 a few more years. They all could have easily just 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:33.840 transitioned that into a podcast with ads for one thing, 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.920 and then a direct to customer supported a way of 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.040 doing things on the other hand, and that really would 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.360 have taken off for them. Instead, they this guy's had 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:44.440 to go kind of filter into working in the corporate 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:45.680 side for making games. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:47.960 The problem is with podcasts is, as you well know, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.400 like monetizing them is very difficult. I mean, people complain 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.880 about the ads here being on the iHeart Radio. I 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:54.880 mean it works great because cool Zone Media and I 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.480 Heart leaves us alone fairly, but people complain about the ads. 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.800 It's like, have you tried starting a fucking podcast? Isn't cheap, 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.600 So it's it's just a frustrating but great time because 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.800 after Mask's doing really interesting stuff that I feel is 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:09.400 going to be I feel like Giant Bumb's gonna be 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:12.200 very like classic gamer stuff, like creative but still very 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.360 much about the games, and Aftermath is doing that plus 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.160 what would have been called derisively new games journalism. Mm hmm, 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.079 way back when do you remember that fellas? Yeah, new 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.960 games I remember that. I remember when people were talking 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:26.439 about that. 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:28.640 Let's talk about that loudu narrative dissonance. 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.560 Yeah, fuck, like the start of Polygon press reset type stuff. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:37.040 Yeah, well, explain that for the listeners because it sucks, 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:37.880 but they should know. 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.200 You talk about that, the Polygon thing or. 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:47.080 Go ahead, dan Oh, it's just like games media going 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:48.840 back to like you know, EGM and Game in Former, 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:50.920 like the magazines of the nineties, to like the early 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.640 you know, web based ign games by stuff. It was 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.160 just you know, we we were repairing press releases, and 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:00.000 it's like news stories were basically like there's a new 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:01.719 box art for Assassin screen. 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.480 Game have, Yeah, yeah, exactly, You're getting. 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.400 More levels this time, like that type of stuff. So 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.640 it's like that's why I even back when I started 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.280 never considering myself a journalist, because I realized it's just like, Okay, 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.199 I'm just kind of reporting on silly things here and 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:14.920 giving a score to a game and things like that. 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.760 I think that there's something marvelous about that with games journalism. 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.720 It's the way there's because I don't they'll write and 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.200 geta especially over there is written like very long form, 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.760 thoughtful emotional pieces. I think that that's what's I want 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:29.800 to say missing because it's happening. But that's what makes 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:31.760 game journalism great. You can have stuff. It was just 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.760 like I played something. It's stunked to shit. It made 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:37.640 me angry, I want to kill someone, but I love 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:40.120 it because it's got this one tiny like there was. 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.720 I remember reviewing a game zone the sky Fall movie, 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:50.400 tying game activision remarkably tight Gears of Wark Loan and 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.160 remember being like, this sucks, but I love it. That's 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.000 great for gaming as well. But then the very deep 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.000 emotional stuff, and I think that it's what lends itself 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.720 to exactly what you're doing, which is this kind of 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.160 let's get together, let's make something about all Halpy and 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.080 our job and whatever, and the in between pot can 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:07.800 be Giant bomb. 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:08.360 Yeah. 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.440 I think there's very much room for both because I remember, 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:12.800 like when Polygon was starting in like you know, probably 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.720 like the twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen whenever that was, and 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:17.720 they were very much, you know, banging the drum of 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.839 like we are doing serious games journalism and telling human 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.719 stories and it's gonna be this emotional, deep stuff. And 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:25.320 I remember looking at that and be like, I don't 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.600 know how the fuck to do that. If I can 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.320 tell you if never did, is any good? You know? 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.160 Like so, but I think there's a room for both 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.520 because like someone like me broke in because I wanted 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.480 to work with a bunch of dorks and talk about 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.720 video games and now make videos about video games. But 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.160 then there are there are important stories to tell. And 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.800 I think, you know, to give Grub some credit here, 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:46.520 I think Grub might be the best I've ever seen 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.360 at balancing both, Like he does the daily news show 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:51.360 on Giant bomb dot com and we'll cover the serious 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.200 stuff in layoffs and just kind of issues facing the industry. 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.200 But then he'll also you know, dress up like Bubbsy 0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.120 and play Bubzy three D for Blake Club, you know. 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.120 So I do think Grubb is uniquely qualified to do 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:02.760 both ends of that. 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.080 Yeah, and I enjoy in both. 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.640 I definitely remember growing up in like reading EGM or 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.679 Game Players and being like, man, the people who are 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.719 in this magazine, they have a lot of personality and 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.680 they clearly fill every page with that, and I like 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:18.600 know these people by name. Now I kind of know 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.480 what they're into, and I built a real connection with them, 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.160 and then you know that then that would actually lead 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.640 me into some of their real reporting on stuff that 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:28.720 mattered to them, especially in EGM and then like Next 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.440 Gen Magazine later, And I just remember like really enjoying 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:32.280 both sides of that. 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:34.200 A lot of games are. 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.880 Silly and stupid and wouldn't be fun if we took 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.040 that seriously, and I really enjoyed that aspect. 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:40.240 Of my job. 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.240 Yeah, And CVG used to have this kind of yellow 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:46.560 it was. I don't know if you ever physically read 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.000 an issue of Computer Video Against magazine it's original, but 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:52.520 they had this middle section that was in like almost 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.520 like yellow Pages style and it was just rambling shit. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.600 It was beautiful. It's like games. Genuinely, I was blues 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.240 off like two years ago, and like games were the 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.320 one thing that I could bond with people over because 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.680 it didn't require you to be anyone, Like I played 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.199 a shit ton of EverQuest I was. I think it 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.840 was one of the first momo like real Remmo reports 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.080 in England, Ollie Welsh as well Legend Sure yeah, Shah Sally. 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.480 But it's like and one of the leftover Polygon people. 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.560 It's just what pisses me off about all of this 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:24.640 as well, is it doesn't seem that hard to run 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.400 a games journalism out let. Well, you just don't hire 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.920 so many people and make them do eleven stories a day. 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.600 I mean, the real sad thing with Polygon is they 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.440 didn't make any of those mistakes when people saw the 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.120 layoffs snow like, oh that's a lot of people. It's 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.560 like they were successful and profitable and could have kept growing, 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.880 but they had a very sort of like moderate take 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.280 on Okay, yeah we could, but let's just keep all 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.040 this sustainable and a lot of that goes down to 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.079 the leadership of Chris Plant, who I just admire so much. 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.760 Is he's got such a good head on his shoulders, 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.960 and it just filtered all the way down through Polygon. 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:02.640 So it's like they were doing it right, and even 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.040 voxers are letting them do it right. It's just like, 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:08.160 even when that happens, you there's that buds and buzz 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:09.600 saw that's going to show up and be like, we're 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:11.120 gonna rip this thing apart and find a way to 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:11.600 make more money. 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:13.120 Fronament, So here's some money. 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.280 It's fucking books. I didn't know they were profitable. Yeah, 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.680 it's so infuriated. It was a successful business, I think. 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:31.680 Is not how I would phrase it. 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.800 It's so fucking stupid because I feel like these outlets 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.320 could on some level, maybe not a ton print money, 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.520 but they there are tons of gamers who love reading stuff. 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.640 Sure like it sounds like Publican had a sustainable operation. 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.560 IGN is insane. I don't know, I do. I don't 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:52.200 know how many people work. Ign Igen breaks on my phone. 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.040 I don't know. If you've tried to look at nign guide. 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.040 Sometimes if you scroll too fast, it just goes not 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:58.720 sorry mate. 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:00.560 Yeah, I mean, I know that so many sites now 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:00.880 could be. 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:03.080 Your own. 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:05.680 Yeah. Yeah, it just goes to the top or pops 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:07.640 up the thing and the accident and clicked the wrong thing. Yeah, 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:08.200 I hate that. 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:09.200 Yeah, the Internet sucks. 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.400 Now really this is as much. 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:13.920 As is show about that. 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.200 But a lot of those a lot of those sites 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:22.040 are are not there's there's it's tough to really say 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:26.120 that they all have agency in a way that you want, right, 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.760 And I think everything becomes this Frankensteinian creation of like 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.360 uh uh, you know, sort of meshing it with other 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.440 properties that sit alongside as sister companies, and you're just 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.720 never going to have that organic uh feeling. 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:40.640 I do think you're right. 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:44.080 I think the Polygon example is good because it was 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.680 sort of like the semblance of like, oh this does 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.960 feel sort of vacuum sealed off in a way that 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.440 that works, and everyone there, you know, really doing a 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.320 tremendous job. But for the most part, whenever you see 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.080 a lot of these massive, behemoth legacy media sites, they 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:03.400 are just the is you know, a vultron creation that 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.840 doesn't really allow for that amount of agency that you know, 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:10.640 I think the spirit of all those sites wants to. 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:15.520 Be Yeah, and I think the like I've said earlier, 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:17.760 that kind of the obvious victim of any kind of 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.600 acquisition partner, because it's just you can turn them into 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.840 a slop shop and the immediately killed them, immediately killed them. 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:25.960 Right, And that's what the Internet's allowed for, right, And 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.000 I know that's like, that's what I read what you say, 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.920 like you you always have it spot on at is 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.680 like that is like we are just sort of like 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:39.320 willfully watching the death of everything and calling it out 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.880 and just being like, yeah, that's the that's the next 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.480 ship that came into the harbor filled with ghosts, and 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:47.960 we're just gonna watch it continue on its way down 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:49.160 to its next port of call. 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.480 And that's it. It's just this parade of dead websites 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:53.280 and dead Internet. 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.280 And you're familiar, familiar with the Tony Oaks pro skater games, right, 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.320 So I was watching I was trying to read story 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:01.200 on Kataka the other day. 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.600 I can't remember what it was about, but it did. 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:05.480 It took me to a video instead, and there was 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:07.840 a man talking over the video and he kept calling 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.080 it thhps, thhps, and I'm like, I don't think i've 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.520 ever heard anyone say that before, and then it's like, oh, 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.479 I I'm listening to an AI voice. Of course I am, 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.560 of course interesting, yes, because he did it every time 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:22.280 in the same thhps thhps. 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:23.240 Yeah, no one says that. 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.000 No one said that, So I'm just like, that's of course, 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:28.359 that's they all think they're going to be able to 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:29.719 do that. That's the story we're gonna have to keep 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:31.680 telling over and over about what's happening with all these 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.240 websites and these equity firms coming in here. 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.159 And I mean, of course I get turned off. 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.080 I think most of the audience probably does get turned 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.439 off when they experienced that, right, because the one thing 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.240 about games and Stephen Spahn, who is an accessibility expert 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:45.840 in the space, he used to tell me like, why 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:47.399 why do I want to play video games? 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:48.479 He's like, it's a currency. 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:50.399 It's a social currency where I play something that I 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.240 get to talk to someone else about it and we 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:53.080 get to share something. 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:53.800 We have a connection. 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:55.280 I mean, you said the one thing you could bond 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.800 over with people these video games. I think we all 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.719 get that at the very fundamental level. And so these 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:03.840 corporations trying to find a way to take that out 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:05.800 of there so they could save some money is obviously 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:07.240 just going to blow up in their faces. 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:09.760 They just don't know why. Am Yeah. 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.200 And I actually think it could go the other way though, 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.679 which is as we get more independent gaming outlets. I 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.280 think that there could be real success there because I 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.600 think that that's what people want to like. There is 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:24.120 definitely a degree of hunger for when is a game 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.560 coming out, in the same way that people google when 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.840 the super Bowls come in. Of course, when the super 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.000 Bowls coming out. When the super Bowl's happening, there we go. 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.080 I do watch sports that did the super Bowl episode, 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.680 but it I think the no one actually reads these 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.600 outlets just to learn that they want a gamer who 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:42.240 has played a shit ton of games, who has a 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.600 good voice to say I like this or I'm worried 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:46.879 about this. And I think the worst of games journalism 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.200 has been when that's been dragged out of it. And 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.840 even when like we were doing these very early days 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.440 of the website for CVG, when we'd have to write 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.880 shit and just be like, this game's coming out, it's 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.720 going to be like this, And I say, we weren't 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.440 allowed to have character, but it definitely wasn't encouraged, which 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.080 is strange because the CBG mag was always so rude. 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:08.600 It was it was it was utility. 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:12.320 You were doing utility work, right as opposed to personality work. 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.280 That's kind of how it works with like the old 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.080 preview system with magazines is because like you weren't supposed 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.240 to since the game wasn't out yet, you know. But 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:22.600 I remember I went to like an Xbox One pre 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.000 launch event thing and I played Rise Son of Rome. 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.440 Oh remember, was just thinking it was like I think 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.080 the headline I used was like, oh, it's as fun 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.439 as dialing a phone number because it's just like waiting 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:33.320 for something to turn red. Then he pressed the red button. 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.639 Then it just sucks, calling it Microsoft snack. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:36.440 Yeah. 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:39.679 Yeah, So I wrote that, and it was like it 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:41.439 had a negative tone, and the game was about to 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:43.520 come out in like three weeks, and it's like and 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:45.240 I kind of said, like, this seems like it might 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.600 suck in the preview, and I remember like both like 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:49.600 comments and stuff and people at work being like, well, 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.240 WHOA can't have this much like opinion in a preview. 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:53.480 It's like I think I can. 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:55.520 This is gonna kind of suck, you know. 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:56.760 Yeah, there's no no rules there. 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:01.159 I remember when Mark McDonald over at EGM said he 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:05.320 played two Human and said it's gonna be terrible, and 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.639 Dennis Diak like insisted on coming on their podcast and 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.680 talking to him about it, and like scolded him and said, 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:13.639 you're gonna regret everything you said when you played the 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:14.320 final version. 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.000 Were rude of the day that you insulted to humans. 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:17.600 I don't think. 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:22.639 I don't think he ruled anything Jesus Christ. 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.600 But this is even this conversation is what is fun 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.840 about games journalism because even a shit game, you have 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.520 the kind of horse trading like shit. 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:32.160 Do you remember that terrible preview? 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:36.959 I I do genuinely miss this about games journalism, like 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:38.560 it's the one. It's probably I miss it more than 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.320 the writing about the games, because backupece he's done. We 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:45.640 had like logs, Steve Hogerty Will Porter, we had all 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.199 sorts of like fun other people like Ryan, all the 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.800 people from the mag who just yell at you. And 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:54.560 I think that and actually I'm curious your thoughts about this. 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:56.480 I think what this industry also needs to do is 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:59.640 rebuild the solidarity because it was quite There was quite 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:01.080 a lot of it in two thousand and eight. It 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.520 feels like it's kind of drifted, and I feel like 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:06.600 that it's something in tech media I want to do too. 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.119 I want people to come back together and realize it 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:10.320 really is us versus them. 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:13.520 Then yes, well, I'm curious to hear where you think 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:15.479 like the friction primarily lies. 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.600 I think what it is is that so many people 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.439 have been hired, fired, hired fired, so many people have 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:26.040 left games journalism, gone into pr and then the people 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:29.240 that own these companies have stopped even being the classic 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:34.399 like Fortune as Fortune Future or Dennis Publishing. It's the people. 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:36.760 So you've always had ign as this kind of thing 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:41.280 over here, this juggernaut, and then remote work to an 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:42.920 extent as well, has done it too. It's just there's 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.080 less events when people are meeting. I don't even know 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:47.280 how we fix this, but it's something that I'm very 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.320 big in tech media at least, trying to bring people 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.040 together and be like, hey, look, it is really us 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:53.920 versus the largest corporations in the world. 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:54.240 Sure. 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:58.960 I mean, that's absolutely been my primary thought that pops 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:01.960 in my head throughout this entire experience, is we really 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:03.840 are in this together, and that I mean, when I 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:05.800 say us that we're in this together, I am thinking 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:08.520 about the other people who are in this creator driven space. 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.320 So kind of Funny's been super supportive and helping us 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.720 out and giving us pointers and stuff like that. The 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.160 guys over at next Lander have been pointing out Dan 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.160 was on Jeff Gersman's show yesterday. It's like we did 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:23.320 realize pretty quickly when Greg Miller did take that team 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:27.080 kind of Funny to go independent that there isn't that 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:30.960 real competition, like there the more people that care about 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.439 the kinds of the ways that we talk about video games, 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:36.080 the better for everybody. And people can bounce around between 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:39.120 these various sites that have a slightly slightly different take 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:41.560 on it, so we keep growing that space. It's good 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.720 for everyone. So how do we turn that into something? 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.320 And it's like, definitely, I'm coming into it with I'm 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:50.680 gonna like reference a book that I haven't read yet, 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:52.000 but I saw the interview. 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:53.800 On Gailey Do the Daily Show. I'm gonna do it. 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:55.960 I'm probably gonna I'm probably gonna misrepresent it. But it 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:57.920 was like moral ambition was the name of the book, 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:01.159 and it was this idea of you should in the 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:03.959 system that we have have ambition to try to do 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.280 big things, cool things, try to go make money. That's fine, 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:10.520 But when confronted with a fork in the road about hey, 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:12.760 I could do this or I could do that in 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:14.720 that moment, go with the one that feels the most 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:16.840 morally correct with you. And like, now we're in this 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:19.080 moment where it's like we could hunker down and try 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.240 to make as much money for ourselves as possible, but 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.280 clearly the right choice is let's work with everyone, get 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:27.320 everyone sort of moving in the same direction, get people 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:29.840 feeling good about this space again, and then maybe we 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:31.320 can kind of heal some of that. 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:33.000 Riff that you're talking about a little bit. I don't know. 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:34.080 We're not going to be able to get back to 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.760 people who are reactionaries that have turned to right wingers 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:38.560 on YouTube. 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:41.560 And they were never part of it exactly. So we 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:43.280 just got to focus on the words that are there. 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:46.160 Yeah, yeah, exactly, And there's a lot of people who 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:48.440 are right there ready to listen again. 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:50.320 We just got to like let them know it's cool 0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:51.880 in here again. Yeah. 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:55.960 I think we need to get back to the lots 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.600 of smaller teams. I think because absolutely, I'm actually really 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.920 glad you corrected me. I thought Polygon was that they 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:05.480 grew too big. That was just the assumption I made, 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:07.680 which was incorrect, clearly not. Yeah, not what I've heard 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:10.080 from anyone that I've talked to. Yeah, it sucks because 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:12.960 I was originally they talked to me at the beginning 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:14.359 of Polygon. I was in PR at the time, and 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:15.520 they're like, yeah, do you want to come over here? 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:17.200 I was like, no, I must stay at a job. 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:18.960 I'm unhappy at it. 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:22.119 Like probably in the beginning for sure, but they definitely 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:23.320 kind of figured out out over time. 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:26.280 Oh no, No, they no, they genuinely they wanted to 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:28.399 need to do PR. I think it's just McElroy and 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:31.080 it's I think that the future is going to be 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:33.399 lots of smaller ones. I think the games as well. 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:36.160 There is less competition because it's not like scoop heavy. 0:24:36.680 --> 0:24:39.920 I guess you could play a game first, but at 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:42.919 that point you're just you played the game. Like. 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:45.920 I still think there's a semblance of that, and there is, but. 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:49.080 It's not like compared to getting a massive funding announcement 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:51.640 in tech or like a breakdown technology. 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:55.600 You're sure sure, like a partnered embargo thing I. 0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:59.400 Mean, yeah, still competition certainly, but you're right, like there's 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:03.159 like everyone is small. That's what the landscape is. And 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:06.760 it's the reckoning of corporate media. Having this realization of like, 0:25:07.280 --> 0:25:12.440 our competition is thirty thousand small independent creators and how 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:15.159 do we how do we like come to terms with 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:17.880 that in a way that will satisfy what we need 0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:18.520 this thing to do? 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:19.480 Answers. 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:21.240 Yeah, and the answer is no, one knows how to 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:24.480 do it because probably there is no answer. So that realization, 0:25:24.560 --> 0:25:26.960 that epiphany, which I think everyone has to have, like 0:25:27.040 --> 0:25:30.040 for themselves at one point in their life, you know, 0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:32.639 kind of lends you to why you know, things like 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:33.680 this wind up happening. 0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:36.399 And I think that there's also the problem of all 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:38.600 of these big entities buying things and draining all the 0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:41.879 personality out is it's replaced all the personality with people 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:44.879 on YouTube that post pictures of themselves frowning and saying 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:47.880 the dragon age just got woke in it or whatever. 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:49.879 Oh that we got to take those pictures of us 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:50.480 frowning guys. 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:53.480 Yeah, right, based organization. 0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:55.600 H I got to work on my pointing. 0:25:55.600 --> 0:25:58.359 Like the the and this is this is a reference 0:25:58.440 --> 0:26:00.480 as well, just to any listeners is like Uber Driver 0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:03.000 sucked me off, and it was like the Rob Whisman picture. 0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:06.600 Anyone who doesn't know what that is. I swear it's 0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:07.840 not just me talking about that. 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:10.600 But if my favorite is the Undertaker got a podcast 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:13.440 not too long ago and seeing the Undertaker do YouTube 0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:14.160 faces is. 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:16.800 Yeah, that's so special. 0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:18.240 It comes for everyone. 0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:21.080 But we need the opinion, like we do actually need 0:26:21.080 --> 0:26:24.359 the opinion back. It's just the gaming online. I feel 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:26.720 like a loss dropper out of nonm sometimes because it's 0:26:26.760 --> 0:26:28.960 like gaming online is like, oh you don't like fucking 0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:34.800 Sonica Mario, I will kill you, Yeah, yep, you insult 0:26:34.840 --> 0:26:35.920 Bubbsey the Bob can't? 0:26:37.280 --> 0:26:37.680 I will? 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:40.400 Yeah, well I can, and I have. 0:26:42.359 --> 0:26:44.600 You know, fanboyism is a currency for sure. And I 0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:49.000 think like that argument of position, as much as it sucks, right, 0:26:49.160 --> 0:26:52.879 is a thing that probably too many people are finding 0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:55.800 the worst things about themselves and placing it into the 0:26:55.880 --> 0:26:59.040 energy of that discourse online. And you know, I think 0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:04.120 that's what probably you know, separates for my personal taste 0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:05.840 what I want to watch and what is out there. 0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:10.479 And I think, uh, you know the fact that you 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:13.920 you know, I think like personality is another former currency. 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:16.920 That is a thing that is all but lost in 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:19.760 a lot of larger, you know, media outlets. That's that 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:21.560 is a thing you can't replace. That is the thing 0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:24.000 that AI is not going to replace. That is a 0:27:24.040 --> 0:27:38.879 thing that you know has to be genuine. 0:27:40.160 --> 0:27:42.520 Yeah, we were in that question, like where's the Lester 0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:44.600 bangs and video games journalism? That was part of that 0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:47.119 new gamesjournalism thing, and it's like it did happen. 0:27:47.160 --> 0:27:49.720 It was probably Donkey Like it's probably. 0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:54.760 Big YouTuber like just kind of does funny talking over 0:27:54.920 --> 0:27:57.400 gameplay and he's got a pretty good eye and. 0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:01.200 He probably thought he was Yeah, but yeah, and I mean. 0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:05.240 Yazi is definitely part of that lineage for sure. 0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:07.280 Video game nerd, video game YouTube guy. 0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:11.639 I saw yeah, yep, yeah, I And I like Yatse's 0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.080 original stuff. I really don't want to look what's happened 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:16.480 since it's one of those things where I hope nothing 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:17.119 bad happened. 0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:18.960 Yeah, you know, a Yachtzi is still kind of doing 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:20.800 his thing. I think he's over as second win now, 0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:22.920 which is a Patreon back thing. 0:28:23.040 --> 0:28:26.359 It's h yeah, it's and I think that every time 0:28:26.520 --> 0:28:29.480 the ground is seated away from personality, it is kind 0:28:29.480 --> 0:28:32.080 of fitting into the right wing type people though, because 0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:35.240 the right way it isn't like you get a bunch 0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:38.280 of clicks just for being nice or loving stuff, right, 0:28:38.640 --> 0:28:39.080 I mean. 0:28:39.360 --> 0:28:40.680 Yeah, it's very easy. 0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:43.480 I think it's very easy for people who are able 0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:47.720 to make that pivot into hate currency and hate juicing 0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:52.840 where they're just like, oh my, like I can easily 0:28:53.720 --> 0:28:57.600 hate on things and use that as ammunition and weaponize this, 0:28:57.960 --> 0:29:02.200 and that becomes my primary mode of revenue generation. I 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:05.000 can pick a target, juice it for all it's worth, 0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:07.800 like a cancer, and then move on to my next victim. 0:29:07.880 --> 0:29:10.960 And as long as I'm able to like just you know, 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:14.120 jump onto the next melting iceberg, I'm gonna be okay. 0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:18.440 So whether whoever it is is the target online, you know, 0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:21.920 that's how that strategy goes, and geologically it works for 0:29:22.040 --> 0:29:24.920 people they're super naked about it this like this. 0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:27.760 In this past week, there was one of these creators 0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:30.960 who was and someone like screenshot I didn't posted the 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:35.440 Blue Sky or whatever, him complaining that his video she 0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:39.560 does about one individual woman video games journalist no longer 0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:42.040 get very many hits for months and months and months, 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:43.720 He's like, this was my whole business now I'm not 0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:44.480 making any money. 0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:46.000 It's my whole business. 0:29:46.120 --> 0:29:51.680 He's like explicitly saying, woe is me, I'm not making 0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:53.800 money from harassing this person anymore. 0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:56.040 It was one of the most insane things I've ever. 0:29:55.920 --> 0:29:57.880 Seen to turn it into a conspiracy, and you say, oh, 0:29:57.920 --> 0:30:00.840 I've been shadow band over an algorithm against me because 0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:04.520 of course, of course, Yeah, I know what. All these 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:06.160 creators seem very very happy too. 0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:08.520 That's the one thing about it. Yeah, they all seem very. 0:30:08.360 --> 0:30:10.880 Okay, take a good line of work, very normal and 0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:12.480 happy with the lie. 0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:14.880 Yeah, they don't seem to health get for that. They 0:30:15.600 --> 0:30:18.720 they only genuinely don't seem to like playing video games 0:30:18.880 --> 0:30:19.560 on the computure. 0:30:20.080 --> 0:30:22.440 So nope. I mean they could just do it, and 0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:23.480 they always choose not to. 0:30:23.800 --> 0:30:25.440 No, we get to look at everything through the lens 0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:27.760 of like, okay, what's the angle on getting people pissed 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:30.240 off about this? And that sounds exhausting and miserable. 0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:32.600 That stuff is a little bit of low tide right now. 0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:34.520 I mean that stuff did pop off again in the 0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:37.520 last few years, but it didn't last as long. Everyone 0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:40.080 kind of saw through it, and now you are seeing 0:30:41.200 --> 0:30:44.280 people who were probably pretty young and impressionable in like 0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:47.000 twenty fourteen, when the original gamer Gate stuff was happening, 0:30:47.360 --> 0:30:49.280 talking about man, I wish I just didn't click on 0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:51.000 that one video is telling me all the things that 0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:53.480 all the ways that feminism was ruined video games, Like 0:30:53.480 --> 0:30:55.600 I could see now that that was a bad choice 0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:57.120 in the path of my life. 0:30:57.200 --> 0:30:59.160 I wish I wouldn't have done that. I wasted years. 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:02.040 And it's like these kids are growing up and seeing 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:04.080 stuff in like the next generation will be a little 0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:07.280 bit more cynical about that going forward, I think, But 0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:08.720 it's always going to be there and they're always going 0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:10.840 to be trying to it. Reality is, if they do 0:31:10.920 --> 0:31:13.800 it and they get rewarded, the algorithm is built to 0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:15.680 reward them. It's going to keep happening no matter what, 0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:16.320 as long as. 0:31:16.160 --> 0:31:16.680 That's the case. 0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:19.400 See what always pissed me off about that, Other than 0:31:19.400 --> 0:31:21.840 all the hate and the getting people angry in the 0:31:21.840 --> 0:31:25.760 attacks on journalism. On top of all of that, they 0:31:25.760 --> 0:31:28.360 don't seem angry at the fucking games companies were actually 0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:32.080 making the realness. Put aside the made up sexism or 0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:34.680 made up misandry. It's all bullshit, not even going to 0:31:34.760 --> 0:31:36.760 humor it. I don't know. Look at the fact that 0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:43.360 NFL has given one company, Electronic Arts, this one game, Madden, 0:31:43.560 --> 0:31:46.440 and it has been bad for fifteen years. It has 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:49.960 been the same game for the last three right. 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:52.000 When there was good competition, and they're like, oh, crap, 0:31:52.000 --> 0:31:53.120 we better lock this down. 0:31:53.320 --> 0:31:56.280 And they did. Yeah, yep, they did, they did. And 0:31:56.840 --> 0:31:58.600 that feels like something. I'm not saying they should be 0:31:58.600 --> 0:32:00.720 a hate campaign against anything, but maybe if you're going 0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:04.520 to do one, choose an actual giant company doing horrible ship. 0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:07.960 Yeah, they because they don't care that. That's not what 0:32:07.960 --> 0:32:10.360 they're interested in, right, Like, that is not the story 0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:14.080 for them. The story has to be deeply personal and accessible. 0:32:14.160 --> 0:32:17.600 I don't I think you know. An expose about that 0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:21.280 is is uh is like sort. 0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:24.240 Of boring in a way to you know where it leads. 0:32:24.240 --> 0:32:26.440 It leads you to the thing. As always it's like, oh, 0:32:26.480 --> 0:32:29.440 the whole capitalist system. Rightly, these are all symptoms and 0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:31.480 that is not going to help them with them trying 0:32:31.520 --> 0:32:34.560 to sell this idea that you're isolated because the feminists 0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:35.400 want you isolated. 0:32:35.480 --> 0:32:39.240 Yeah, you're right, Yeah, because you're isolated because the system, 0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:42.080 the system you're within, has kept you separate from people. 0:32:42.160 --> 0:32:43.560 They're all walkable. 0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:47.680 Cities, right, there's content to entaglea. It's woman. 0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:50.800 Yeah, that's it. It all comes to that. 0:32:50.920 --> 0:32:53.360 Yeah, in our space, it's women in uh, you know, 0:32:53.400 --> 0:32:56.520 common politics, it's immigrants, it's it's yeah, always the scapegoat. 0:32:56.960 --> 0:32:59.680 Yeah, well it's the son of a woman and an immigrant. 0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:00.400 I think. 0:33:00.440 --> 0:33:05.080 No, I guess the father of daughters was. 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:07.960 The line from Spider Verse as well as like as 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:09.760 the son of a mother and the father of a daughter. 0:33:09.960 --> 0:33:15.520 But it's I do have hope seeing Giant Bomb do 0:33:15.560 --> 0:33:18.880 what you do. When the bad stuff happened, I was 0:33:18.880 --> 0:33:22.480 definitely like games journalism's fucked, Like this is just like 0:33:22.600 --> 0:33:26.480 polygon everything, just like look at it. Just was very 0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:28.960 dark about it. But like, actually, I feel like there 0:33:29.000 --> 0:33:32.000 is an independent wave happening and there are so many 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:35.600 like amazing creators like Lucy James of course former Giant Bomb. 0:33:35.760 --> 0:33:39.120 She's amazing. I only found her work fairly recently. It's 0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:41.480 like you've got all these amazing creators out there. Gaming 0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:43.960 is becoming more mainstream, and I think that there is 0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:48.520 genuine hope here. There's genuine mainstream interest. It's just a 0:33:48.560 --> 0:33:49.400 question of cracking it. 0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:52.800 Yeah, I mean, I think everyone likes that. It's because 0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:54.640 it's a good story. It's a it's a good story 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:56.520 with you know, I don't want to call in a 0:33:56.520 --> 0:34:01.760 happy ending, right, but a very like, you know, a 0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:05.080 positive way, a positive outcome of a thing that seemed 0:34:05.080 --> 0:34:09.720 to not have any realistically happy you know, turnout. 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:11.600 And then and it came from like the fact that 0:34:11.640 --> 0:34:14.160 the audience was so excited. It's like, oh, you know, 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:16.560 they wanted to do that thing to keep going. We're 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:18.239 able to keep it going. It's so yeah, you can 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:19.759 match that up and make that makes sense, and it 0:34:19.760 --> 0:34:21.000 feels like that should be a business. 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:22.040 And we all agreed, yeah. 0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:25.040 Yeah, And the tone of our conversations internally, you know, 0:34:25.080 --> 0:34:27.600 you go to a month ago versus how we're talking now, 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:29.760 which is like, oh my god, it is a world different. 0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:32.560 We've got optimism and you know, we're always passionate and everything, 0:34:32.600 --> 0:34:34.520 but now it just really feels like we're free to 0:34:34.520 --> 0:34:36.400 to directly make this stuff the audience wants. 0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:36.759 Yep. 0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:37.920 Yeah, but I think you're right. 0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:40.120 I think that I think you're right about an independent 0:34:40.160 --> 0:34:43.040 sort of wave happening because I think, you know, I 0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:45.880 don't I'm not a big like fate or or you 0:34:45.920 --> 0:34:50.160 know destiny person But what I am is that Yeah, 0:34:50.200 --> 0:34:53.319 well obviously, but but I think like on a long 0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:57.719 enough timeline, you have you know, doors that open that 0:34:57.800 --> 0:35:00.759 allow the sort of like spread up a thing that 0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:03.799 people kind of want to put their energy into and 0:35:03.920 --> 0:35:06.640 have that you know, proliferate in a positive way. And 0:35:06.680 --> 0:35:08.959 I think, you know, on a lot, like I said, 0:35:08.960 --> 0:35:11.680 on a long enough timeline, like odds are, I do 0:35:11.719 --> 0:35:13.839 think that's going to break through the surface and come 0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:15.759 out in a way that makes everyone happy. And I 0:35:15.760 --> 0:35:18.160 think that is a bit of what happened with our story. 0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:18.839 Uh. 0:35:18.880 --> 0:35:21.080 And I can be you know, super jazzed about that, 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:24.880 especially in the manner did I would like it of 0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:26.920 not to have had to happen so quickly. 0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:29.240 I wish maybe I had. 0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:31.640 Another week or two where Grub and I could have 0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:37.920 handed this plane. But yeah, it it is definitely a 0:35:37.960 --> 0:35:39.760 bright future in that regard for sure. 0:35:40.560 --> 0:35:44.080 Yeah, And it's I also think that I don't know, 0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:49.080 personality is profitable. I think that there's real It requires patience, 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:52.200 which private equity does not like. But like cool zide media, 0:35:52.239 --> 0:35:55.440 we've done pretty well giving people a runway to not 0:35:55.560 --> 0:35:58.560 fuck up but love them. What you're doing. I feel 0:35:58.600 --> 0:36:02.719 like you guys haven't. I's a question though, so it's 0:36:02.800 --> 0:36:04.640 just you. How many people are you right now? So 0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:07.239 it's usually and a few other five people? Are you 0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:09.000 going to be bringing on others? Are you going to 0:36:09.000 --> 0:36:11.560 be bringing back any of the original GP people who 0:36:11.680 --> 0:36:13.680 haven't been there? Like, what's the plan to expand if 0:36:13.719 --> 0:36:16.440 there is one? Because isn't a problem if you haven't. 0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:19.319 Yeah, I mean the reality is like Backler's right, this 0:36:19.320 --> 0:36:22.400 stuff came together so fast that we don't really have 0:36:22.480 --> 0:36:26.080 insight into what like our own personal financial futures look like. 0:36:26.080 --> 0:36:26.480 With this thing. 0:36:26.480 --> 0:36:29.480 We have an idea, we feel pretty okay about it, 0:36:29.520 --> 0:36:32.320 but it's like, you know, we're going to keep pushing 0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:34.120 to try to grow because as fast as we can grow, 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:35.680 or as many as many people as we can get 0:36:35.719 --> 0:36:38.120 to support it, we can then begin to look at 0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:41.359 doing other things of bringing other people on. But it's 0:36:41.800 --> 0:36:43.800 it is scary, and so we want to try to 0:36:43.800 --> 0:36:45.880 figure out as much as we can on our own 0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:48.880 so we could be solid and then all of the 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:52.320 growth can just make sense naturally after that. It wouldn't 0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:54.960 be like, I mean, guys, I couldn't imagine ever having 0:36:54.960 --> 0:36:57.120 more than ten people like. 0:36:57.360 --> 0:37:00.560 Right, it's like like you said, like, we haven't even 0:37:00.560 --> 0:37:02.960 seen the first dollar yet. You know, we we have 0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:05.040 no idea what to expect in terms of this, and 0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:07.120 like even though we were a small outlet under the 0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:09.800 corporate umbrella, you know, there was a freelancer fund and 0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:11.960 budget and things like that, so we were able to 0:37:12.280 --> 0:37:14.719 bring people on and pay them regularly and things like that, 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:17.840 and just the business realities of it. Uh, you know, 0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:20.520 the Jeff's here definitely looked into it a lot, and 0:37:20.760 --> 0:37:21.719 we we don't know yet. 0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:26.359 But yeah, I mean, I'm you know, I'm very I 0:37:26.400 --> 0:37:28.239 feel like there was a there was a time where 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:31.760 people were sort of like, oh, another one of these, 0:37:32.040 --> 0:37:35.680 like how how can the market handle another you know, 0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:40.360 Patreon or or independent thing that needs you know, direct 0:37:40.400 --> 0:37:43.840 support to sustain itself. And you know, I kind of 0:37:44.040 --> 0:37:46.840 I kind of throw that argument away. I think it 0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:51.400 is truly a rising tide situation because, you you know, 0:37:51.920 --> 0:37:57.080 the the the independence allows for collaboration in a in 0:37:57.120 --> 0:38:00.360 a really positive and organic way. And I think I 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:04.080 think a lot of people who tell them themselves that story, 0:38:04.120 --> 0:38:06.759 whether they're you know, involved in the business or they 0:38:06.800 --> 0:38:09.279 are on the audience side of that are really not 0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:12.839 seeing the force for the trees and understanding like no, 0:38:12.960 --> 0:38:17.120 you like, look at how YouTube creators and twitch streamers 0:38:17.160 --> 0:38:19.960 and all these people help each other grow. It is 0:38:20.040 --> 0:38:25.200 all about genuine collaboration and audience sharing and like exposing 0:38:25.200 --> 0:38:27.959 yourself to the people who even if it's someone who 0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:32.279 just very slimly overlaps in that Venn diagram, you know, 0:38:32.960 --> 0:38:35.040 that is the best endorsement you can get. And I 0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:38.239 think there's you know, to your question at of like 0:38:38.320 --> 0:38:40.839 bringing on new people, Like, I don't think there's really 0:38:40.880 --> 0:38:43.760 ever a situation where we wouldn't want to collaborate with anyone. 0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:47.279 Obviously having someone on in the full time capacity is 0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:49.759 a limitation of just what you know, the business is 0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:52.000 able to bring in. But you know, I don't think 0:38:52.040 --> 0:38:54.640 that means that in no way we wouldn't be open 0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:56.960 to really exploring all kinds of stuff with people. I mean, 0:38:56.960 --> 0:38:59.719 that's the point, right like. That is what we talk 0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:02.439 about when we say we're in this together. As you said, 0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:05.200 right like, that is the spirit of that, and if 0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:07.000 we don't do that, well then we're not holding up 0:39:07.000 --> 0:39:07.920 our part of the bargain. 0:39:08.280 --> 0:39:10.880 Are you going to do any event stuff live stuff. 0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:13.440 I realize, all if this is very new, but what 0:39:13.480 --> 0:39:15.160 are you thinking? And it always do not neat to 0:39:15.200 --> 0:39:17.600 be specific, we announced at Packs East. 0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:20.600 The timing worked out crazy, like you know, signatures were 0:39:20.600 --> 0:39:23.719 a signed like the day before pack season. We're able 0:39:23.760 --> 0:39:25.920 to do this big announcement and in the future. We've 0:39:25.920 --> 0:39:28.680 always loved doing packs, Giant Bombs, always had a big 0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:30.520 presence of packs and would love to keep doing that, 0:39:30.880 --> 0:39:33.000 you know, whether it makes sense to like, you know, 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:35.239 unless we're getting like flown out for something like are 0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:36.839 we going to pay to send the whole crew out 0:39:36.840 --> 0:39:39.360 to games Com or something like that, Like probably no, 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:42.040 probably not, especially not this early on, but like you know, 0:39:42.520 --> 0:39:44.440 a lot of times places will offer to you know, 0:39:44.480 --> 0:39:47.799 fly you out for preview events or these bigger conferences, 0:39:48.040 --> 0:39:49.960 and yeah, we would when it makes sense, we will 0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:50.800 definitely do that stuff. 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:53.040 Well, you're going to bring us out for CES right 0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:54.120 in January. 0:39:54.320 --> 0:39:56.040 I don't know how the hell I'm going to get 0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:57.719 you there or whay you're going to sleep, but if 0:39:57.719 --> 0:39:59.200 you have to be in town, I'd love to have 0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:02.320 you on because that CES has become like the fucking 0:40:02.320 --> 0:40:05.719 solidarity Fest. If anyone like we're gonna we're extending see 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:08.239 yes to two hours per episodes to two a day, 0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:10.880 Like we're gonna have tons of people on, and I 0:40:10.960 --> 0:40:13.000 just think that that's what the indis can do for 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:14.880 each other. I'm not even saying like put me on. 0:40:15.160 --> 0:40:17.759 I'm just saying the acknowledging and working together on this 0:40:17.800 --> 0:40:21.239 ship is actually how better stuff will be done. Back 0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:23.919 in the course days with Dennis and Future all those 0:40:23.920 --> 0:40:25.600 fuck nuts used to hang out. And I say that 0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:28.000 with deep adoration of said fuck nuts, me being one 0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:33.600 of them. But it's just I think that any independent 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:36.239 listening to this needs to know that this is like 0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:38.840 the Allies are the people doing this independently too, Not 0:40:38.880 --> 0:40:41.160 to say people at big outlets aren't, but it's like 0:40:41.239 --> 0:40:42.239 we only have each other. 0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:44.480 Mm hm yes, I mean without a doubt. 0:40:45.000 --> 0:40:47.000 Yeah, I'll do the the you know, we're gonna try 0:40:47.000 --> 0:40:48.719 to do GB at Night at Summer game Fest and 0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:51.080 things like that. That's a lot of work right now 0:40:51.080 --> 0:40:52.680 because it's less than a month away and this all 0:40:52.760 --> 0:40:53.680 kind of happened real hot. 0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:55.399 We're doing our best, but you. 0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:56.799 Know, for that, you know, GB at Night is this 0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:59.080 thing where we just have our friends come sit on 0:40:59.120 --> 0:41:00.880 a couch and I interview them and we do like 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:02.960 six segments a night, and the whole idea is just 0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:05.360 about like getting cool people from the industry into the 0:41:05.400 --> 0:41:07.800 same room together so we could just talk this stuff 0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:10.480 out and it's it's very cathartic. It's oh yeah, we 0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:13.279 you do come out of that feeling more connected and 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:16.080 like they're oh, there there is one of the ladders up, 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:18.160 or there's one of the ladders someone else is sending 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:20.319 down so other people can maybe just have a chance 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:23.440 to grab a foothold on something. And yeah, that's been 0:41:23.440 --> 0:41:25.759 important to me for a long time, so I'd love 0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:27.719 to keep doing something like that. And you're right that, 0:41:27.960 --> 0:41:31.080 to me, that's the only path forward for getting new 0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:32.520 people into these spaces. 0:41:33.120 --> 0:41:35.360 Well, guys, thank you so much for coming on the show. 0:41:35.680 --> 0:41:38.120 Where can people find you other than johnbomb dot com. 0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:41.080 Let's let's hit giinbomb dot com slash join if you 0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:42.919 want to become a member and support what we're doing. 0:41:43.000 --> 0:41:46.080 Jo yeah, Jeded, that's We'll give you all the information there. 0:41:46.440 --> 0:41:49.640 But other than that, I'm grub dot WTF on Blue 0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:51.600 Sky and that's where I'm mostly posting these days. 0:41:51.920 --> 0:41:54.120 Yep, I'm a Dan Reicherd dot com on Blue Sky, 0:41:54.200 --> 0:41:55.360 Dan Record on Instagram. 0:41:56.040 --> 0:42:00.319 Yes, I am Jeff Bachelar pretty much everywhere, and yeah, 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:03.480 you know, like that's another good thing, right, Like we're 0:42:03.880 --> 0:42:06.680 you know, we can kind of serve people wherever they are, 0:42:06.760 --> 0:42:09.520 right so, like it doesn't matter where you're looking for us. 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:11.560 We don't have this kind of like shackle around us 0:42:11.560 --> 0:42:13.919 where we can only do a thing here or there. 0:42:13.960 --> 0:42:17.879 And you know, it's a lot more accessible now, which 0:42:17.920 --> 0:42:18.320 is awesome. 0:42:18.960 --> 0:42:20.719 Thank you so much for joining me, guys, and thank 0:42:20.760 --> 0:42:22.720 you everyone for listening. You can find me at Google 0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:25.520 dot com. That's where I live, and you will now 0:42:25.560 --> 0:42:27.640 hear a message that I will never re record. It's 0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:29.080 going to be the same one from when I was 0:42:29.560 --> 0:42:33.080 a weird band that was unconfident in my podcasting ability. 0:42:33.160 --> 0:42:44.080 Thank you, Thank you for listening to Better Offline. 0:42:44.200 --> 0:42:46.640 The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song 0:42:46.719 --> 0:42:49.359 is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music 0:42:49.360 --> 0:42:53.040 and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:57.480 T O S O W s ki dot com. 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