1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: The United States by far has the highest gun ownership 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: rate in the world. There are about four hundred million 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: firearms in civilian hands, so US gun manufacturers are seeking 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: out new customers overseas. One of the companies working hardest 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: at this is sig Sour Bloomberg Investigative reporters Michael Riley 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and David Kochineski right that the once struggling gun maker 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: has now become the largest US exporter of guns, and 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: it found a helpful hand from a place you might 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: not expect, the US government, which has smoothed the way 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: for international sales. 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 2: They create trade delegations where they take people down to markets. 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: They also bring gun buyers from other countries to the 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: Shot Show, for example in Las Vegas, which is the 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: main show every year. They give them kind of a 15 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: VIP treatment. They match sellers and buyers. They treated just 16 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: as any other US product that they want to sell. 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: One of the company's largest deals was with tail. 18 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 3: Drawing a correlation and causation when dealing with crime is 19 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 3: always a very complicated area, and the Thai police don't 20 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 3: keep specific statistics on what happens with welfare guns. 21 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 4: However, there was a. 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 3: Big surgeon gun crime in Thailand at the time that 23 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 3: all these weapons are starting to flow into the country. 24 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: We'll also hear from a reporter Papisha Tanaka Sempapod in Bangkok. 25 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: She'll tell us about the aftermath of a mass killing 26 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: in Thailand. 27 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 5: The scale of understanding that it took for society to 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 5: come to terms with what happened was unlike anything we've seen. 29 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: I'm west Kasova today on the big take the USX 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: sports guns and their consequences. Michael, at the center of 31 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: the story you and David wrote with our colleague Eric 32 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: Fan is this very ambitious CEO look into the future? 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: Can you set the scene for us on some level? 34 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 2: This is a story of an amazing business success and transformation. 35 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: Six hours a very old and storied European gun maker 36 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: German and Swiss. It has roots in both countries. It 37 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: was making rifles during the Seven Years War, that's how 38 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: far back it goes. And yet its guns in the 39 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: marketplace were really well made, but expensive, and so they 40 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: didn't have a huge booming business even in the US 41 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: gun market, which is a great market to be in. 42 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 2: Their presence in the US was pretty small. The US 43 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: unit was basically a marketing arm for these really well 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: made artisanal hunting rifles and pistols. At six Hour made 45 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: it gets this new CEO in the United States, a 46 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 2: man named Ron Cohen, who really is a kind of 47 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: force of nature. He's in Israeli, served in the Israelian military, 48 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: the IDF, and he comes in with a very different vision. 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 2: He wants a company to really grow. He wants the 50 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 2: company to mana manufacturer in the United States, and he 51 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 2: wants to focus on what are called black guns, which 52 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 2: are guns that are used by either the military or 53 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 2: police forces. And one of the reasons they're doing this 54 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: is six Hour doesn't have the market share that Smith 55 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: and Wesson does or that River does in the US, 56 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: and so they're looking for places to grow. 57 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 3: So Cohen saw the opportunity when the assault weapons ban expired. 58 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 3: It had been there for ten years, and in two 59 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 3: thousand and four when it expired in the US, he recognized, 60 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:28,959 Speaker 3: like most people in the gun industry, that this was 61 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 3: going to be a big moment and a lot of 62 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 3: money to be made. He wanted Sigsaur to be part 63 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 3: of it. So rather than focusing on the old German rifles, 64 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 3: he wanted to get into ar type weapons and to 65 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 3: pistols that were like semi automatics. He saw that that's 66 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 3: where the future was and he was going to take 67 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 3: Sigsauer there. 68 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: So, Michael, what did he do to make that happen? 69 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: So he does a couple of really important things. He 70 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: diversifies the supply chain, makes it more global, but he 71 00:03:55,040 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: basically makes the guns cheaper. He subcontracts manufactured tories like India, 72 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: they make parts through metal injection molding versus this very 73 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: sort of hammer forged gun making that happened in Germany. 74 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: He opens up a big manufacturing plant in New Hampshire. 75 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 2: He wants to move the center of gravity of the 76 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: company and it's manufacturing from Germany to the United States, 77 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: and he successfully does that, and he begins to sell 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: guns both to police forces and the US military and 79 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: then target countries selling guns to the developing world, especially abroad, 80 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: and he begins to focus on international gun sales. 81 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: David moving the company's operations from Germany to the US 82 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: obviously had one advantage because that's where a lot of 83 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: the customers were. But there was another advantage too that 84 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: you write about. 85 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a regulatory difference, you know. Cohen realized 86 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 3: that in Europe there are far more regulations for exporting guns, 87 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 3: and he learned it the hard way. In two thousand 88 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 3: and nine to six Hour signed a deal with the 89 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 3: Columbia National Police to sell fifty six thousand handguns. The 90 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 3: only problem is they didn't have the capacity to make 91 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 3: them in New Hampshire and it was illegal to export 92 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 3: them from Germany, so SIGSAUR developed a workaround. It shipped 93 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 3: German made sig pistols to New Hampshire and filed export 94 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 3: documents stating that the guns were going to be sold 95 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 3: in the US civilian market, according to court records, but 96 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 3: once the weapons arrived in the US, the employees allegedly 97 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 3: relabeled the shipping boxes and sent them on to Columbia. 98 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: Cohen admitted wrongdoing as part of the settlement that led 99 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 3: to sigpaing the largest export fine in German history twelve 100 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 3: million euros, and Cohen ended up getting an eighteen month 101 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 3: suspended prison sentence. But with that kind of trouble, with 102 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 3: the costs of Germany, with the unions in Germany, they'd 103 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 3: rather come to someplace more gun friendly, and that was 104 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 3: the United States. 105 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: So they moved their manufacturing largely to New Hampshire. And 106 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: what happens next. 107 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: It becomes a much more of an American company. He 108 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: expands the manufacturing in New Hampshire. Eventually the main German 109 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: manufacturing plan to shut down. But he really embraces the 110 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: American gun culture and what it is to be an 111 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: American gun manufacturer. 112 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: What does that mean. 113 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: He plays the politics of it. He creates alliances within RA. 114 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 3: They started doing outreach for like shooting clubs and bringing people, 115 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 3: making shooting a family event. And you know, in two 116 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 3: thousand and eight they finally got their first semi automatic 117 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: rifles on the market, and that kind of changed the 118 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 3: company too, because all of a sudden, their market was 119 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 3: the people who want to be tactical shooters, you know, 120 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 3: civilians who want to fire weapons of war. 121 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: So, Michael, you said that they were zeroing in on 122 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: this black gun market, selling to police departments and the military. 123 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: How did that work? 124 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 4: To begin with? 125 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: It was a good market for Sick to try and 126 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: get into because you can sell to the police and 127 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: people want to buy your guns, not just the United 128 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: States but elsewhere. We've traveled to other countries as part 129 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 2: of our reporting for the story. One of the things 130 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: we heard over and over again is from police apartments 131 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 2: and others that the six hour guns are really good. 132 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: They must be because US law enforcement uses them. There 133 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: is a little bit of a rub though. At the 134 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: same time, by changing manufacturing methods and using cheaper manufacturing 135 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: like metal injection molding, you create tolerances in the guns 136 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: that are less precise. So they've been sued multiple times 137 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: in what are essentially product liability suits, and the plaintiffs 138 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: or people including police officers, who have been wounded or 139 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: maimed because the guns misfired, or at least that's the claim. 140 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 3: One early and very loud example was in New Jersey. 141 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: The New Jersey State Police bought three thousand sig guns 142 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen. 143 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 4: They had so much problem with them malfunctioning. 144 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 3: They said they were almost unusable, and by twenty sixteen 145 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 3: they had gotten rid of them and switched to a 146 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 3: different weapon altogether and filed a lawsuit. 147 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: The main pistol that they're selling to law enforcement and 148 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: that they sell a lot abroad, is called the P 149 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: three twenty. It's a nine millimeter semi automatic pistol. There's 150 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: a verse of it that they now sell to the Army. 151 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: It's the Army's main side arm and one of the 152 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: things that's novel about it is it's a modular pistol, 153 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: which means you can take the grip and change it, 154 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: and so it can be used by shooters who are 155 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: women or smaller or bigger. That's something that the Army 156 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: really wanted to do. They helped develop the pistol for 157 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: that specific purpose, but it became something that they can 158 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: market to law enforcement and to countries around the world 159 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: as well. 160 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: So did they manage to turn things around and start 161 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: making more reliable fire arms. 162 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: The lawsuits have continued, and some of the incidents that 163 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: are in the lawsuits are relatively recent ones. So SIG 164 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: will say that they re engineered key aspects of the 165 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: pistol so that they have fixed many of the problems, 166 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: but people who are filing the lawsuits say that the 167 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: either the incidents continue to occur, that the problem has 168 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: not in fact been fixed. Some of these problems with 169 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: their guns have prevented them from being incredibly successful as 170 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: gun manufacturers, sellers, and marketers. One example of that is 171 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: they recently won in twenty the contract for the new 172 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: US Army assault rifle, the US Army hasn't updated it's 173 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 2: assault rifle in decades, and that contract is going to 174 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: be worth four point five billion dollars over many years. 175 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: It's an incredibly lucrative contract and it is really cemented 176 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: sig as a major manufacture of guns in the United States, David. 177 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: At the same time that Sigsaur was looking to the 178 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: US market, the CEO Cohen also saw the foreign export 179 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: market as a big part of the company's future. 180 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. 181 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 3: In twenty ten, Ron Cohen said that he thought the 182 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 3: developing world was where SIGs Hour's future lie. So he 183 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: tried to beef up his international sales staff and they 184 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 3: started looking around the globe for different places in Latin America, 185 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:48,719 Speaker 3: in Asia. 186 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: So, even though they had moved manufacturing from Germany to 187 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,479 Speaker 1: the US in part because it was easier to export 188 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: weapons from the US, they still had some obstacle you write, 189 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: with the US government that they needed to solve. 190 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 191 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 3: Well, you know, gun sales in the US are overseen 192 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: by the government. They're regulated, and the thought is, we 193 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 3: want to help allow US manufacturers to sell places, but 194 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 3: when to make sure they don't go the countries where 195 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 3: they could fall in the hands of terrorists or in 196 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 3: autocratic governments that will abuse the people or into the 197 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 3: hands of cartels. So there's a screening process, a licensing 198 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 3: process that was in the State Department. 199 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: So the gun industry for some time has been pushing 200 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: an effort to switch the regulatory oversight of export licenses 201 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: from the State Department, which typically focuses on things like 202 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 2: human rights and the possibility of instability where some of 203 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: these guns would go, and move it to the Commerce Department, 204 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 2: which they saw is a much more business friendly, sales 205 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: friendly kind of environment to do this kind of regulation. 206 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: This proposal first comes up during the Obama administration. They 207 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: had this world change written, but it hadn't been published yet. 208 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: They were preparing to publish and then the school masacre 209 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: in new Town, Connectin happens. Rule change hasn't happened yet, 210 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 2: but then Donald Trump is elected presidents in twenty sixteen. 211 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: He has a much more friendly approach to the gun 212 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 2: industry and he sees this as an opportunity to say, look, 213 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 2: I'm going to do something for the gun industry. He 214 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: seeses that officials within the Commerce and the State Department 215 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 2: quickly move to get this rule change to happen. It 216 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: takes a couple of years, the necessarily public commented period, 217 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: but it's clearly on the road to occurring soon after 218 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: Donald Trump gets in and by twenty twenty the rule 219 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: change happens. 220 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: And David you write that six Hour worked very hard 221 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: to court Donald Trump. 222 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 3: When Trump even the month before he announced his campaign, 223 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: he visited six Hour headquarters in the Hampshire. He got 224 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 3: a private tour of the factory, and you know, Hampshire 225 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 3: obviously the first primary state, so it's got a lot 226 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 3: of political significance. His sons were seen at the SIGs 227 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 3: Hour booth at the Shots Show, and they gave one 228 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars to a pack that was dedicated to 229 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 3: getting Trump elected. So they knew who was the gun 230 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 3: friendly candidate and they were not shy about getting in 231 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 3: his favor. 232 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 2: The new rule moved oversight over export licenses to the 233 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: Commerce Department. The Commerce Department made an argument during public 234 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: comments and elsewhere that their regime was as thorough as 235 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: the state departments, but a lot of people predicted that 236 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: international gun sales would go up once oversight was moved 237 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: to the Commerce Department, and in fact that did happen. 238 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: As a result, the gun industry basically got the rule 239 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: change that it wanted in. Companies like six hour have 240 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: since benefited from it by increasing gun sales. 241 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: And David how is the switch from the state departments 242 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: oversight of US gun exports to the Commerce Department changed 243 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: the way the business works. 244 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 3: The gun industry is selling a lot more guns overseas. 245 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: If you talk to gun brokers, not just at Sigmud, elsewhere, 246 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 3: they'll say that things happen faster. They'll complain about some 247 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: hold ups here and holdups there. But the National Shooting 248 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 3: Sports Foundation, which is the industry trade group, had estimated 249 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 3: beforehand that that change would increase by about twenty percent, 250 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 3: and it turns out is delivering far more than that amount. 251 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: And what exactly does the Commerce Department do? Aside from 252 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: just approving overseas gun sales. 253 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 2: Commerce also does a lot more than just oversee the 254 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: licensing process. A different part of the Commerce Department is 255 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: in charge of selling US products abroad, and so they 256 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: create trade delegations where they take people down to markets. 257 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: They also bring gun buyers from other countries to the 258 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 2: Shot Show, for example in Las Vegas, which is the 259 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: main show every year. They give them kind of a 260 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: VIP treatment. They match sellers and buyers. They treated just 261 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: as any other US product that they want to sell. 262 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: After the break, Sigsaur gets the US governments go ahead 263 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: to sell guns to Thailand. We've heard how in twenty twenty, 264 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: gun companies got what they'd hoped for. The federal government 265 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: moved oversight of gun ex it's from the State Department 266 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: to the business friendlier Commerce Department. But even before that happened, 267 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: the Trump administration had already started making it easier for 268 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: gun makers to sell guns overseas. David, you write that 269 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: one of the markets that sig Sour wanted to sell 270 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: guns to was Thailand. 271 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, Thailand has had its own gun. 272 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: Culture for years that it's more pro gun than a 273 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 3: lot of places in the developing world. 274 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 4: There's a huge black market. 275 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: You can buy guns on Facebook because of its location 276 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 3: and relations with the US government and the US military. 277 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: During the Vietnam War, there's a lot of weapons through there, 278 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 3: and so sig realized that this was a potentially large market. 279 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: Now, Thailand actually has fairly strict gun laws for individuals, right. 280 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 4: That's right. 281 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: It's actually hard for ordinary tie to buy a gun, 282 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: you have to fill out a lot of paperwork. The 283 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: process can take over a year. One of the things 284 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: you have to do is get a boss or some 285 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: other authority. You're to testify that you in fact can 286 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: get a gun. It's relatively onerous, and the guns are 287 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: expensive because there's a forty percent tax on them. For 288 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: all sorts of other reasons about the market, it's really 289 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 2: expensive to buy a gun. So typically not many ordinary 290 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: ties have access to guns. 291 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: But there is this other method that makes it a 292 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: whole lot easier. 293 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: So six hour spots a kind of a loophole in 294 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: all of that, and that is something that you need 295 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: to TIELND called the Welfare Gun Program. Essentially, what program 296 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: is set up to do is allow police officers and 297 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 2: government officials to buy personal guns cheaply. The government negotiates 298 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 2: the price with manufacturers. They could get them at as 299 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: little as a third of the costs of buying one 300 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: in a gun shop. And it solves a problem for 301 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: the government because they don't have to provide the guns 302 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: to police themselves. So these officers sign up for the program, 303 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: they buy a gun. It's their personal gun, but they 304 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: use it on the job. 305 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: And SIGs hour won a big contract under this well 306 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: fair gun program to sell firearms to the Thai police. 307 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: One of the stunning things about six Hours marketing or 308 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 2: relationships in Thailand was they took a program that was 309 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: relatively small historically few thousand and tens of thousands of guns, 310 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: and then twenty fifteen they signed a really really big 311 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: contract with the Royal type Police. It was for one 312 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand pistols. It was one of the 313 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: biggest contracts for six Hours. It was certainly the biggest 314 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: contract for the gun and welfare program in Thailand, and 315 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: it was worth about one hundred million dollars. The guns 316 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: have a hold up because the US government doesn't issue 317 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 2: a export license, but once Trump comes in, they start 318 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: moving relatively quickly, and by December twenty seventeen, all these 319 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: guns are flowing into the country. 320 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 3: So this certainly offers the police away to kind of 321 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 3: offload the costs. 322 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 4: It also has a lot of problems. 323 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 3: Because whale all are intended to go to police officers, 324 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 3: they don't all stay there. 325 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 2: One of the problems is that Thailand is a country 326 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: with a lot of corruption, and some of that corruption 327 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: is a social did with the police forces and the 328 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: military of the security forces. So some of these guns 329 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: make their way from where they're supposed to go, which 330 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 2: is the police forces and officials in the military, and 331 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 2: they end up being resold on the black market. They 332 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 2: end up arming the bad guys rather than good guys. 333 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: There are lots of ways in which this happened. In 334 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: one case in particular, that was done last year by 335 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: the Thai equivalent of the FBI, they busted a gun 336 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 2: trafficking ring. The whole model was they were essentially buying 337 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: guns from this welfare gun program which were cheap, and 338 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: then they were reselling them on the black market or 339 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 2: smuggling over the border to nearby countries. They could do 340 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 2: that because the Thai government and six Hours essentially created 341 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 2: a new asset class by importing all of these tens 342 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: of thousands of relative to the market, very cheap guns, 343 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: and so there was a big incentive to move those 344 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 2: guns to other places to make money. 345 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: Another reason why this was such a big deal, you right, 346 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: is that gun shops in Thailand have very strict limits 347 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: on the number of guns is they're able to sell 348 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: in a year. 349 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 4: That's right. 350 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 2: One of the things that the normal commercial market keeps 351 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: the number of guns small in Thailand is that each 352 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 2: gun shop, and they are about five hundred of them, 353 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 2: have limits on the number of guns they can import 354 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: it and. 355 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 4: Sell each year. 356 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 2: It's thirty pistols and fifty rifles for a year, which 357 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 2: is probably about what a busy Cabelas would sell in 358 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: a week. 359 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: That works out to about fifteen thousand pistols a year. 360 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: This single warfare gun contract that six Hours struck in 361 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen was ten times that. 362 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: The guns were supposed to go to the police, but 363 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: not all of them stayed with the police, and that 364 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: started causing some pretty big problems. 365 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, So one of the things that's gone on in 366 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: Thailand over the last few years has been an increase 367 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 2: in gun violence. So over this period where these guns 368 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: were flowing into the country and they are supposed to 369 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: go to the police, there's also an increase in gun 370 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: violence just generally. And some of those guns, some of 371 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 2: those same models, the P three twenty and the P 372 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: three sixty five that come in through the gun welfare program, 373 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: end up in the hands of bad guys or in 374 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 2: the hands of people were committeing crimes. Sometimes horrendous ones. 375 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: So in twenty twenty one, one of the police officers 376 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: that got one of these guns is a man named 377 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 2: Panya conrab And. He was a police officer in a 378 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 2: rural village of sugar cane and rice fields in northeast Thailand. 379 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 2: He also had, at least according to his colleagues, a 380 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 2: drug problem. He got fired from the police and a 381 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: few months after that firing, he took that pistol and 382 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: a very large sugarcane machete knife. He walked into a school. 383 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 2: He killed twenty three children. In all that day, Panya 384 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: killed thirty six people, some of them with the knife, 385 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 2: some of them with this P three sixty five six 386 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: hour semi automatic pistol, and then he killed himself. 387 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: And this was the worst mass killing in Thai history. 388 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 2: That's right, and one of the worst in the world. 389 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: And that, of course drew a lot of attention. But 390 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't the only one. 391 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 2: No, And there was one in particular that drew a 392 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 2: lot of national attention. In April, a well known influencer, 393 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: a young woman was killed by her boyfriend using a 394 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 2: P three twenty that had been bought legally by the 395 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 2: boyfriend's father. There were examples of drive by shootings of 396 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 2: drug gangs using these guns. How they get from the 397 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 2: legal program to the hands of criminals some way through 398 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: the black market, It's not always clear, but it's clear 399 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 2: that these guns are not all staying where they're supposed 400 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 2: to stay. 401 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 3: Drawing a correlation and causation when dealing with crime is 402 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 3: always a very complicated area, and the Thai police don't 403 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 3: keep specific statistics on what happens with welfare guns. However, 404 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 3: there was a big surgeon gun crime in Thailand at 405 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 3: the time that all these weapons are starting to flow 406 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: into the country. The number of crimes involving firearms surge 407 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 3: between twenty sixteen and twenty twenty one. So at the 408 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 3: same time that SEGA started to increase the flow of guns, 409 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 3: the crime with guns is going up. 410 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: David, When you asked EGSAUR about their business about the 411 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: gun experts to Thailand, what do they say? 412 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 4: They did not respond. 413 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 3: You know, we emailed repeatedly, and I went to SIG 414 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: headquarters in Newington, New Hampshire and asked for an interview. 415 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 3: When they didn't respond, we gave a very detailed list 416 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 3: of questions about what we didn't want to ask about 417 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 3: and there's been no response whatsoever. We reached out to 418 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 3: Ron Cohen, the CEO, we reached out to Michael Luca, 419 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 3: who is the owner from L and O Holding, and 420 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 3: no response from anyone. The company has just decided to 421 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 3: not respond. 422 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: But we should be clear that not all these crimes 423 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: were committed with Sigsaur guns. 424 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 2: That's right, and in fact, it's not easy to tell 425 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 2: in Thailand which guns are used. You know, as this 426 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: surge of gun violence happens, you can tell in some 427 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 2: specific instances that sig guns are used. But one thing 428 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: that is clear is that during this period where this 429 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: large number of guns are coming to the country from 430 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 2: six hour at the same time their relatively strict legal 431 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: imports for the gun shops, gun crime is rising and 432 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: there's lots of evidence that not all the guns that 433 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 2: were supposed to go to the police stayed with the police. 434 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to understand more about how that mass killing 435 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: in Northeast Thailand last year impacted the country. So I 436 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: called a reporter Pepisia a ton of Kasimpapat. She's in 437 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's Bangkok bureau. Papisia people in the US are very 438 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: familiar with mass shootings, which happen all too often, but 439 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: that's not the case in a lot of other countries. 440 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: Can you describe how extraordinary the shooting in October twenty 441 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: twenty two was for Thailand. 442 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 5: It was very shocking. I think what happened that day 443 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 5: was that when in the news first emerge, I took 444 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 5: everybody by surprise just by the severity and extremity of 445 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,959 Speaker 5: what was happening. And Thailand mass shooting is not that 446 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 5: common to begin with. The last one before this one 447 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 5: that we heard about was the one in Coat that 448 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 5: involved a military officer mall that lasted for hours and hours. 449 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 5: But what was especially shocking about this case was that 450 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 5: it was happening at a daycare and it involved dozens 451 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 5: of children, and this was happening in a very very 452 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 5: remote part of Thailand that's bordering Laos. So by the 453 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 5: time that the news sort of reached the people in Bangkok, 454 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 5: it was already almost over. The shooting already happened, and 455 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 5: people were struggling to kind of understand why and what 456 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 5: exactly happened. I think it caused a nerve, especially in 457 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 5: Thai culture, because we as a Buddhist country, killing is 458 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 5: a very very big deal. To begin with, we have 459 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 5: five precepts, which is a concept in Buddhism, and one 460 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 5: of them is that killing is a very very bad sin. 461 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 5: And this incident is not just killing, it's killing a 462 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 5: bunch of children. The scale of understanding that it took 463 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 5: firsts to come to terms with what happened was unlike 464 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 5: anything we've seen. My generation has a different relationship with 465 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 5: guns than our parents' generation and their parents before them. 466 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 5: I think growing up, I have heard about Thai households 467 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 5: having a gun in their homes as you know, a 468 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 5: safety thing for self defense. I've never actually heard of 469 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 5: anyone having to use it, but it's somewhere in the 470 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 5: house in a closet, you know, in a safe. It's 471 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 5: something that gives people comfort, but normal people have never 472 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 5: actually had to go and find it and grab it 473 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 5: and use it. At the same time, there's a culture 474 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 5: of gun enthusiasm. There are shooting ranges where people go 475 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 5: and you know, show their guns, and it's like a hobby, 476 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 5: share their enthusiasm for guns with other people. When it 477 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 5: first happened, like within a day or two or a 478 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 5: few days after words, the Prime Minister Janoshah he came 479 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 5: out to say that the country needed stricter gun control 480 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 5: as well as drug control, because the narrative around this 481 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 5: mass shooting when it first emerged was that the shooter 482 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 5: might have been on drugs because he was suspended from 483 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 5: his job and was going to be on trial for 484 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 5: drug possession. Fresh in people's mind was still the Chorad shooting, 485 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 5: the mass shooting in the mall, and then it came 486 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 5: to the forefront of the discussion and the government said 487 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 5: that it would review the licenses that have already been 488 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 5: issued for gun ownership and might revoke some of those 489 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 5: lenses where necessary, like the gun owners would be required 490 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 5: to go through psychiatric evaluation. They did actually put an 491 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 5: outline of their plan after the mass shooting happened, but 492 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 5: the concrete result of that has yet to be widely perceived. 493 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: Michael, and you spoke to some of the victims of 494 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: some of these shootings in Thailand, So. 495 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, we spent some time in the villages around where 496 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 2: the mass rampage last October took place. We talked to 497 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 2: neighbors of Panya, and we talked to some of the 498 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: abbots and the temples who spent a lot of time 499 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: with the families that were affected. I mean, it's really 500 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: hard to imagine how much of an impact this had. 501 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 2: Because the communities were small, they're tight knit, everyone knew 502 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 2: everyone else. One mom in particular, had as we were 503 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 2: talking to the habbit at the temple, comes up with 504 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 2: her five year old who had been in school with 505 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: one of the young children who was killed, and she 506 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 2: immediately freaked out because we were strangers. And the mother 507 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 2: explained to us that since the killing, she gets very, 508 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 2: very scared when somebody these es knows around. 509 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: When we come back, what's next for US gun sales 510 00:26:53,200 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: around the world? So, David, what does six hours business 511 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: look like? Now? We started this conversation saying they wanted 512 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: to increase exports for the future. They've certainly done that. 513 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: How are they looking? 514 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 4: Six hour is soaring. 515 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 3: You have to remember when this company was bought in 516 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 3: two thousand, it was an adlong that they're trying to 517 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 3: buy these rifle companies and they had to take SIG 518 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 3: two America for less than a dollar. They're added into 519 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 3: the business. Now six hour generates more than a billion 520 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 3: dollars a year in revenue, according to German financial filings. 521 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 3: They get the contract for the US Army assault weapon 522 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 3: for four point five billion dollars, and they are a 523 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 3: huge exporter. They are the largest US exporter by far. 524 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 3: They have almost fifty percent of the export market. And 525 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 3: the thought is that once the US Army side arm 526 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 3: that they're making and the US Army assault weapon they're 527 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 3: making become integrated into the force, that sales overseas there 528 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 3: are just going to go gangbusters. 529 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 2: So it's been a huge international success for six hours. 530 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 2: But it's not the only one. They sell guns in 531 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 2: many countries. They sell guns to Mexico, which has a 532 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: big corruption problems, and some US manufacturers have avoided a 533 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: sell guns to Ivory Coast, which until recently was under 534 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 2: a UN embargo for guns because there's so much smuggling 535 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 2: that comes from there. They sell guns into the Emirates, 536 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 2: They sell guns all around the world. 537 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,959 Speaker 3: You know, they are the biggest, so we focus them 538 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 3: on this story. But other gun makers are doing the 539 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 3: same and America is the biggest arms exporter in the world, 540 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 3: and so other companies are following a similar pattern, and 541 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 3: we're seeing the impact. 542 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: And what about Thailand in the wake of all of 543 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: these shootings, have they done anything. 544 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: Well, especially after the killing in October, there was a 545 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 2: big examination of the welfare gun program. They suspended for 546 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 2: a time. We asked one of the police generals who 547 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: was in charge of the commission that examined the welfare 548 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: gun program what was going to happen. They said, do 549 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: you think it'll continue? With some minifications. They'll try and 550 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: crack down a little bit on who's available to get it. 551 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: They may put some provisions in for mental health, but 552 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: it's likely to go on. They haven't done a major 553 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: welfare gun program contract since then, but it's likely that 554 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 2: once they sort out what the new regulations are, that 555 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: they'll start doing them again. 556 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: Michael, we talked earlier about how the Commerce Department is 557 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: trying to facilitate sales and help the gun manufacturers the 558 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: way the Department does for any other US product, and 559 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: yet the Biden administration has taken a pretty strong stand 560 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: against the gun industry in the wake of US mass shootings. 561 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: That's right. Although the Democrats generally the Biden administration in particular, 562 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: are focused on domestic gun sales, what happens to all 563 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 2: of those guns that are sold and under what conditions 564 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 2: are sold. The interesting thing about having looked at gun 565 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 2: exports for some months during our reporting. One of the 566 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 2: thing we found is it's just not a huge policy 567 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: priority for just about anybody, in part because there's so 568 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 2: much to pay it to domestically. But when you do 569 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 2: shift the lens a little bit and begin to look 570 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: at US gun exports, where they're going and what's happening 571 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 2: in those countries where they're going, a lot of things 572 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 2: open up that look as if the US is exporting 573 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 2: its gun culture to many of these countries, and so 574 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: along with these weapons, they're basically creating markets by exporting 575 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: a culture. 576 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 3: And you know, candidate Biden on his website said that 577 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 3: if these regulations were loosened at allowing oversight to switch 578 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 3: from state to commerce, if those are enacted, he would 579 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 3: rescind them and he could do it with the stroke 580 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 3: of a pen. And they have not done anything he's 581 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 3: been in office. And if you ask people around the administration, 582 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 3: they will say, well, he did do some things about 583 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 3: three D printed guns and whatever. 584 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 4: But the reality is, you know. 585 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 3: On the campaign they link to very specific things about 586 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 3: the concerns that this would lead to increase of gun 587 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 3: sales and places where they're going to hurt civilians and 588 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 3: they have not acted. 589 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: What does the White House say about this program? And 590 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: where does the Commerce Department say? 591 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 3: A spokesperson for the Biden Administration's National Security Council responded 592 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 3: to US and said that the US quote thoroughly reviews 593 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 3: firearm export applications for national security, human rights, and other 594 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 3: policy concerns to limit illegal trafficking or diversion of firearms. 595 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 3: They also went on to say that the transfer of 596 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 3: responsibility from state to Commerce quote has strengthened enforcement and 597 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 3: investigative scrutiny over these exports because they use the Commerce 598 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 3: Department's resources and personnel. 599 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: Michael David, as you continue to cover this story, where 600 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: are you watching for? What is the next thing? 601 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things that we're going to 602 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 2: continue to do is follow these guns into different parts 603 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 2: of the world. We focused on Thailand in this story, 604 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: but there are other countries where, under very different conditions, 605 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: US guns are pouring into those countries and having a 606 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 2: similar devastating effect. 607 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: And not just six Hour but other manufacturers. 608 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 2: Not just six Hour, but all sorts of manufacturers. And 609 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: in fact, one of the trends we're watching is that 610 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: a lot of European manufacturers and manufacturers from other countries 611 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 2: are opening up plants manufacturing facilities in the US. They 612 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 2: want to do that because they want to sell the 613 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 2: US market, but they also want to take advantage of 614 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: the looser export regimes in the US to sell internationally. 615 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 3: I'm looking to see how this scrutiny to this will 616 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 3: be taken internationally by other countries. There have been a 617 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 3: lot of complaints about US illegal guns going in and 618 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: you know the lawsuit that Mexico has filed against the US, 619 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 3: and there's been a complaint, the big complaints in the 620 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 3: Caribbean basin nations about US guns being smuggled in and 621 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 3: leading to an inordinate amount of crimes. According to trace 622 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 3: data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 623 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 3: about twenty percent of crimes committed with guns in Central 624 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 3: America these weapons that were brought in legally from the 625 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 3: United States and Canada, that number is thirty percent. And 626 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 3: so I think, well, there's been all this focus on 627 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 3: illegally smuggled guns, and rightly so. The fact that a 628 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 3: lot of the crimes are being committed with legally exported 629 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 3: guns that are being helped and enabled by the United 630 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 3: States government. 631 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 4: I think that's a discussion that needs to be had. 632 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: David Michael, thanks so much for speaking. 633 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 4: With me today, Thanks for having us, thanks. 634 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: For listening to us here at The Big Take. It's 635 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows 636 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 637 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: you listen. And we'd love to hear from you. Email 638 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. 639 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Bergalina. 640 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Our producers are Michael 641 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: Fallero and Mow Barrow. Hil de Garcia is our engineer. 642 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm Wes Kasova. 643 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.