WEBVTT - What's the bar exam like anyway?

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is one of

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<v Speaker 2>those good old fashioned rootin tootin Rudy Fruity episodes of

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff you Should.

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<v Speaker 1>Know Rudy two D fresh and Fruity.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, I forgot the rest of it, but yes,

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<v Speaker 2>you knew what I was laying down?

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<v Speaker 1>Can I shock you right off the bat?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think I have ever been in an I

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<v Speaker 1>hoop restaurant and eden M I don't think so.

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<v Speaker 2>See, this is normally where I'd be like, what yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>But I don't think you're missing enough to warrant what yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean if it was always waffle house, if we

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<v Speaker 1>were going to do something like that. So yeah, never

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<v Speaker 1>been in an Eyehup.

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<v Speaker 2>The two are actually not really that comparable, to tell

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<v Speaker 2>you the truth. I mean there, if you went to

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<v Speaker 2>a waffle House and then went to an ihop, you

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be like been to one, been to the other.

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<v Speaker 2>Their their menus are different enough, the vibes different enough.

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<v Speaker 1>Is I have more relatable to like a Denny's? Yes, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I've been to Denny's, but.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, much, then you don't need to go to ihup.

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<v Speaker 1>Can we thank the listener who suggested this episode?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I remember their email, but I don't remember their name.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because I finally actually wrote it down and we're

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<v Speaker 1>not doing it weeks later. But this came from listener Rowan.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm not sure how to pronounce this last name,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm gonna go with Garin DESSI that's a great name,

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<v Speaker 1>Garon Daisy.

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<v Speaker 2>I like Garan Daisy more because of the daisy part.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but Rowan wrote in and I was like, you

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<v Speaker 1>know what, I think someone in Rowan's life had taken

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<v Speaker 1>the bar and I think they realized that they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>know much about it. And I was like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I've never really thought much about the bar exam and

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know anything about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, didn't they also send like a little clip or

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<v Speaker 2>a an anecdote about how crazy it gets during the test,

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<v Speaker 2>like how nuts people will will or what Yeah, so

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<v Speaker 2>links they'll go to to finish?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I think I do remember that. Actually, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>save it, save it.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about the bar exam. Chuck. For those people

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<v Speaker 2>who aren't aware, and from what I can understand, essentially

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<v Speaker 2>every country in the world that has lawyers has a

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<v Speaker 2>bar exam. But it's the test that you have to

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<v Speaker 2>take in most places to become a practicing attorney, to

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<v Speaker 2>become licensed as an attorney. And that's it. There's bar

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<v Speaker 2>exam everybody, goodbye.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah exactly. And you know they the word bar is

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<v Speaker 1>there because I think it's named after the literal bar

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<v Speaker 1>railing in a courtroom that divides the public from you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the business end.

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<v Speaker 2>Right where they yeah, where you're not really supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>go past, or else a baylift will jump on you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember there was a local news story once about

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<v Speaker 2>a judge who'd been drinking like during work, huh, and

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<v Speaker 2>like they followed him, like on his lunch hour and

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<v Speaker 2>followed him into like a place where he was drinking.

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<v Speaker 2>They were like teeing up the story and they said,

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<v Speaker 2>this judge not only passed the bar, he went in

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<v Speaker 2>and drank at it. And that I mean, like I

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<v Speaker 2>saw that fifteen years ago and it stuck with me

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<v Speaker 2>ever since.

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<v Speaker 1>That's so lazy it is, but I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought it was pretty good to tell you the truth.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, that's like when Neil days when we were

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<v Speaker 1>writers for Howstuff Works dot com, and like a shining

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<v Speaker 1>week is when I wrote a clever what do you

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<v Speaker 1>call the thing under the picture caption caption? Now I

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<v Speaker 1>can't even remember cap with the word caption.

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<v Speaker 2>That's been a whole Do you remember any good ones?

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<v Speaker 1>No? No, But I was like, hey, I'm gonna check

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<v Speaker 1>this out. I wrote a clever caption. It was my

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<v Speaker 1>first professional writing job, so I was, you know, showing pride. No.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember that. We used to tell one another there

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<v Speaker 2>are great clever captions. Yeah, this one music lyrics we'd

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<v Speaker 2>fit in two articles that we just thought we were

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<v Speaker 2>so sly about.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and now we just say dumb things with our mouths.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. Well, I feel like we've shaken off all of

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<v Speaker 2>the curious lawyers who don't normally listen to us, so

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<v Speaker 2>we can get started everybody. One of the things about

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<v Speaker 2>the bar exam I never understood, and I would guess

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<v Speaker 2>also that most people out there who aren't attorneys or

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<v Speaker 2>aspiring attorneys wouldn't really get. But there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>criticism about the bar exam. It's it's not just some

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<v Speaker 2>tests that lawyers have to take to get licensed, which

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<v Speaker 2>on its face sounds great because like with any professional

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<v Speaker 2>licensing that protects the public from incompetent lawyers, they have

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<v Speaker 2>to show that they understand the minimum standard of how

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<v Speaker 2>to practice law that will prevent them from being such

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<v Speaker 2>a dipstick that their clients are going to get electrocuted

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<v Speaker 2>because they represented them so poorly. It's way way more

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<v Speaker 2>kit than that. Yeah, socially speaking, culturally speaking, socio culturally speaking.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because you don't want to end up with the

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<v Speaker 1>Lionel Huts, right.

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<v Speaker 2>No, he almost certainly did not pass the bar.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, well, we'll get to it, but you don't necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>have to pass the bar in every state in the

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<v Speaker 1>United States to practice law. But sit on it, everybody,

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<v Speaker 1>because that's coming. I guess we should go back in

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<v Speaker 1>time and talk about a little bit of the history

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<v Speaker 1>because if you go back to colonial days, pre states

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<v Speaker 1>in the United States or not in the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>but you know what will one day be the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>and then.

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<v Speaker 2>Buy the rest of the curious lawyers Exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>There were no bar exams because there were no law schools.

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<v Speaker 1>If you wanted to work as a lawyer, you would

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<v Speaker 1>apprentice or clerk for a practicing lawyer for you know,

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes you would just do it and donate your time

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<v Speaker 1>to working for them. Sometimes you would do that and

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<v Speaker 1>actually pay them right, which you know, it seems like

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<v Speaker 1>a pretty good system. And we'll talk more about apprenticing

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<v Speaker 1>later because for my money, I think that's a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>good way to do things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>But by seventeen fifty, which pretty early on, all of

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<v Speaker 1>the colonies got on board basically and said, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>we need we need standards for people to do this job,

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<v Speaker 1>and we need to kind of all agree on what

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<v Speaker 1>that's going to be.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And like a lot of stuff or most things

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<v Speaker 2>with American law, they were following in the tradition of England,

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<v Speaker 2>which had had some sort of exam or another for

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<v Speaker 2>people to become attorneys as far back as the sixteenth century.

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<v Speaker 2>But America wasn't that far behind, you know, a couple

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<v Speaker 2>hundred years apparently. The first one was Delaware in seventeen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty three, and it was essentially just you would go

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<v Speaker 2>and hang out with a judge and they would quiz

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<v Speaker 2>you on some legal stuff. Yeah, and if you got

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<v Speaker 2>it right, you were you were accepted to the bar.

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<v Speaker 2>You were an attorney. From that point on it was

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<v Speaker 2>okay for you to practice. It was all so supposedly

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<v Speaker 2>looked on as very easy too.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I imagine a lot of that depended on the

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<v Speaker 1>judge that you got in, like maybe how much they

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<v Speaker 1>liked you. In those early days, it was really sort

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<v Speaker 1>of the wild wild West there. Libya helped us with this,

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<v Speaker 1>and she dug up a pretty fun story about Abraham Lincoln,

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<v Speaker 1>who was a bar examiner for the state of Illinois

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<v Speaker 1>in the eighteen fifties and was apparently just like at

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<v Speaker 1>a hotel chatting with a lawyer in a room, and

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<v Speaker 1>the lawyer answered a few questions and Lincoln was like, congratulations,

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<v Speaker 1>you're an attorney.

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<v Speaker 2>So great man. Yeah, yeah, I love that story too.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I can just see Lincoln butting it out

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<v Speaker 2>so casually.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think the takeaway is the guy didn't even

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<v Speaker 1>know the test had begun.

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<v Speaker 2>Essentially, No, he had no idea exactly. I'm glad you

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<v Speaker 2>added that part.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>So the actual first written bar exam, kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>they are today, that popped up around eighteen fifty five,

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<v Speaker 2>I think in Massachusetts, and then it became a requirement

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<v Speaker 2>about twenty years later in Suffolk County, where Boston wasn't.

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<v Speaker 2>By nineteen twenty, written exams were like the way to go.

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<v Speaker 2>And because now it wasn't just getting quizzed with the judge,

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<v Speaker 2>law school started popping up and developing to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>train you to prepare for that written exam at the

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<v Speaker 2>very least, and they actually became an alternative to apprenticing, which,

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<v Speaker 2>as you'll see later on, is kind of inverted these days.

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<v Speaker 2>But that was something you could do if, like say,

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<v Speaker 2>all of the lawyers in your town were jerks. You

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<v Speaker 2>could go to a law school instead of apprenticing. When

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<v Speaker 2>you graduated law school, then you could take your bar exam.

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<v Speaker 2>Those were your two ways, your two paths to the

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<v Speaker 2>bar exam back then.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, by nineteen twenty one, the American Bar Association was

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<v Speaker 1>around and they said, you know, we really prefer a

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<v Speaker 1>written exam to license. They I don't think they mandated

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<v Speaker 1>it that point, yeah, but they, you know, states generally

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<v Speaker 1>kind of fell in line behind the ABA, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think by nineteen thirty one, another decade later, the American

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<v Speaker 1>Association of Law Schools got together with the committee and

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<v Speaker 1>they said, all right, we need to develop a real

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<v Speaker 1>system here. So they came together with the National Conference

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<v Speaker 1>of Bar Examiners, and at that time nineteen thirties, they

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<v Speaker 1>were really like the testing that they were concerned about

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<v Speaker 1>was what they called black letter law, just sort of

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<v Speaker 1>really unambiguous black and white yes or no answers to

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<v Speaker 1>things on like you know, how things are literally legally

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<v Speaker 1>defined and not a lot of like you know, hypotheticals

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<v Speaker 1>being bandied about which you're going to get stuff, Yeah, exactly,

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<v Speaker 1>which you're going to get more these days in the

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<v Speaker 1>bar exam.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but one of the problems with taking a test

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<v Speaker 2>like that is that your hand can get cramped. They

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<v Speaker 2>didn't want prospective lawyers hands cramping. So in nineteen seventy two,

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<v Speaker 2>the National Conference of Bar Examiners came up with the

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<v Speaker 2>Multi State Bar exis Amination, and that created a multiple

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<v Speaker 2>choice test. Yeah, it also really kind of dug into

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<v Speaker 2>like your knowledge. But at the same time you can

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<v Speaker 2>also say, like this is where it became a little

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<v Speaker 2>more standardized and less lucy goosey. But in that sense

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<v Speaker 2>it also became a little more scientific minded by creating

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<v Speaker 2>a test that you can say this is right, this

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<v Speaker 2>is wrong. And it wasn't just legal terms. They were

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<v Speaker 2>applying it to hypothetic hypothetical situations, but it was still

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<v Speaker 2>multiple choice, so you could grate it much more easily.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't know how I feel about multiple choice

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<v Speaker 1>in a test like this. Anytime you can sort of guess, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think you can necessarily guess your way to success.

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<v Speaker 1>But I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you just came up with a T shirt

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<v Speaker 2>guess your way to success.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, totally, and then on the back just ABCD and

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<v Speaker 1>just a check mark next to the sea. All the above,

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<v Speaker 1>all of the above, go ahead, you go ahead. No. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>as this is sort of developing over the decades, I

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<v Speaker 1>think we're at the seventies here, but it kind of

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<v Speaker 1>became clear during this period that, like, hey, what we've

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<v Speaker 1>got here as a gate keeping service? Essentially Ostensibly the

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<v Speaker 1>reason was, like you said, is like we want to

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<v Speaker 1>keep only like you know, really knowledgeable people that know

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<v Speaker 1>what they're doing in these jobs to protect people that

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<v Speaker 1>hire them for lots and lots of money. But as

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<v Speaker 1>this was happening, it became even more clear that there

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<v Speaker 1>was a side effect of that, which was, you know, immigrants,

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<v Speaker 1>black people, other people of color that were vying to

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<v Speaker 1>become attorneys were having a harder time. And this is evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>Really early on in nineteen twelve, they accidentally admitted three

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<v Speaker 1>black attorneys into the ABA, and because they didn't have

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<v Speaker 1>you know, like check here for race, and then they

0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.640
<v Speaker 1>were like, oh goodness, we accidentally let in three blacks attorneys,

0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.080
<v Speaker 1>so we need to start screening basically for race.

0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they said, we need to add a check here

0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.440
<v Speaker 2>for race thing on the application to take the bar exam,

0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:13.520
<v Speaker 2>and that's essentially what they did. So from nineteen twelve

0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.800
<v Speaker 2>all the way to nineteen forty three, if you checked

0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.480
<v Speaker 2>African American or god knows what they had down for

0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.920
<v Speaker 2>you to check back, then you were just not allowed

0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.600
<v Speaker 2>to take the bar exam. Sorry. Yeah, like this is

0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:33.000
<v Speaker 2>it was an actual, like you said, a gatekeeping mechanism

0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.120
<v Speaker 2>to prevent black people from becoming lawyers in the United States.

0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:41.240
<v Speaker 2>And so in nineteen twenty five, prospective black lawyers said

0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.840
<v Speaker 2>nuts to that, and they got together with actual black

0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.520
<v Speaker 2>lawyers and they came up with the National Bar Association,

0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.800
<v Speaker 2>which is still around today as an alternative for black

0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.480
<v Speaker 2>attorneys to basically become attorneys rather than have to go

0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:56.400
<v Speaker 2>through the ABA.

0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And you know, since then, especially in like thenineteen seventies,

0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.439
<v Speaker 1>there there seemed to be like a series of lawsuits

0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.839
<v Speaker 1>from black lawyers in different states that were suing over

0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:12.120
<v Speaker 1>various what they thought were, you know, discriminatory policies within

0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:16.440
<v Speaker 1>the test. I don't think many of those were successful though,

0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 1>were they No.

0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.640
<v Speaker 2>The one that sticks out the most that I've heard

0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the most described as well just basically A good example

0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.240
<v Speaker 2>of the lawsuits that came around at this time was

0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.439
<v Speaker 2>Tyler versus Vickery, Yeah, or Tyler v. Vickery if you're

0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.720
<v Speaker 2>a lawyer. It was a class action suit that alleged

0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:40.840
<v Speaker 2>that Georgia's bar examination's cut score, which is the minimum

0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.280
<v Speaker 2>score you have to have to pass, had been adjusted

0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:48.240
<v Speaker 2>with the introduction of the multi state Bar exam, remember

0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.079
<v Speaker 2>the multiple choice tests that they introduced, That it had

0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.600
<v Speaker 2>basically been introduced in designed to continue to keep black

0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.600
<v Speaker 2>people from passing the bar exam. And the Fifth Court

0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:04.800
<v Speaker 2>of Georgia said, we don't really think that's true. For

0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.720
<v Speaker 2>some reason, they said, we don't see any intent to discriminate,

0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.120
<v Speaker 2>which is neither here nor there under Title seven of

0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:15.440
<v Speaker 2>the Civil Rights Act, which prevents employment discrimination. Yeah, but

0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.200
<v Speaker 2>they also said, here's the thing. The bar. The American

0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Bar Association is not an employer, they're not a labor organization,

0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 2>they're not an employment agency, so therefore Title seven doesn't

0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.000
<v Speaker 2>really apply to them. And the court said ABA continue

0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.240
<v Speaker 2>to discriminate through the bar exam as you see fit.

0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that I don't know much about lawyer stuff, and my.

0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:39.760
<v Speaker 2>Spit about lawyer.

0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:46.240
<v Speaker 1>In my spit in my civilian mind, I see that

0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:50.040
<v Speaker 1>as kind of a punt legally speaking. And maybe that

0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.280
<v Speaker 1>was that, maybe that's you know, a lot of times

0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:54.800
<v Speaker 1>you decide something on precedent, and whether or not you

0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.040
<v Speaker 1>feel it's right or not, that's just the precedent. But

0:14:57.960 --> 0:14:59.320
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, that felt like a punt to me

0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.480
<v Speaker 1>by saying like, well, they're not an employer and an

0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.840
<v Speaker 1>agency or labor organization, so we're just sort of not

0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:05.280
<v Speaker 1>going to hear this one.

0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And this reveals to me something that I just

0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:13.320
<v Speaker 2>find fascinating is when lawyers sue other lawyers or bodies

0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.480
<v Speaker 2>of lawyers, or judges rule on the test that it

0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.440
<v Speaker 2>takes to create lawyers and therefore judges, it just seems

0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.880
<v Speaker 2>so fraud with basically opinion because they're so like, it's

0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:26.880
<v Speaker 2>not like the judges learning about this for the first time.

0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 2>They're coming at it from fresh eyes, like this is

0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.800
<v Speaker 2>like part of their fabric as having been a law

0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.240
<v Speaker 2>student and becoming a lawyer and then becoming a judge.

0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, I just find it fascinating.

0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, totally. Should we wrap up sort of the testing

0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 1>stuff and then take a break.

0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's get back into the evolution of the test again.

0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So now we're in the late eighties, nineteen eighty eight,

0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm a junior in high school, still seeking that first kiss,

0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:59.560
<v Speaker 1>and the NCBE has added the Multi State Essay Examination

0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.400
<v Speaker 1>at this point, so now you're back to essaying, which

0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.120
<v Speaker 1>is how it previously had been until that multiple choice test.

0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:10.040
<v Speaker 1>And in ninety seven it handed over the Multi State

0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:15.680
<v Speaker 1>Performance Test, or the MPT, which says, hey, let's sort

0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.000
<v Speaker 1>of do like do some practice stuff like right up

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:20.960
<v Speaker 1>a brief for me, or write out a memo, draft

0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.560
<v Speaker 1>a memo. Let's see how you do on that. And

0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.480
<v Speaker 1>then finally, in twenty eleven, the Uniform Bar Exam or

0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:31.800
<v Speaker 1>the UBE was adopted by most states, where all three

0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:33.640
<v Speaker 1>of those tests kind of make that one up as

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:34.600
<v Speaker 1>one big test.

0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which is, you know, if you're a state and

0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:39.400
<v Speaker 2>you don't feel like going to the trouble of coming

0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.880
<v Speaker 2>up with your entire your own bar exam. Now you

0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:47.960
<v Speaker 2>can just use the UB. Yeah, and it's it's proven. Likes,

0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.240
<v Speaker 2>there's all sorts of great questions in there. You sacrificed

0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.120
<v Speaker 2>state law. But a lot of people say, like, well,

0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:57.920
<v Speaker 2>like law students don't need to sit around and memorize

0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.480
<v Speaker 2>state law. That's a waste of time in favor of

0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.159
<v Speaker 2>the UBE, which is pretty rich because a lot of

0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:06.760
<v Speaker 2>people argue that the UB itself is a waste of

0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.040
<v Speaker 2>time because you have to memorize general law rather than

0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 2>state law, which we'll talk more about that. I just

0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:14.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm chomping at the bit right now.

0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:16.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but it did make it like more easy to

0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.399
<v Speaker 1>transfer from state to state and stuff like that. And

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.840
<v Speaker 1>we'll get into those specifics too, but let's take that

0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.360
<v Speaker 1>break and we'll get into the basics of the bar

0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:26.040
<v Speaker 1>right after this.

0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.480
<v Speaker 2>So, Chuck, it turns out there's fifty six jurisdiction in

0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:06.000
<v Speaker 2>the United Statesty, I didn't fifty states, plus some territories,

0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:11.160
<v Speaker 2>you got some overseas possessions, you got you know what else.

0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.400
<v Speaker 2>So there's fifty six and each jurisdiction has its own

0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.240
<v Speaker 2>like highest agency that basically says these are the standards

0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.480
<v Speaker 2>to become a lawyer in the state. And again a

0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.399
<v Speaker 2>lot of them just said you have to pass the

0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.439
<v Speaker 2>uniform bar exam. That's the standard, but they also can

0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of mess with it here there, and it's up

0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.960
<v Speaker 2>to this agency that's associated with the highest court in

0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:35.879
<v Speaker 2>the state, usually the state Supreme Court.

0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And most jurisdictions, if you just to take

0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.320
<v Speaker 1>the bar exam, you have to have graduated from an

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:48.000
<v Speaker 1>accredited law school from the American Bar Association, which usually

0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.920
<v Speaker 1>means a three year program. Some states, though, are like, hey,

0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.240
<v Speaker 1>if you didn't go to an accredited school, that's fine,

0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.960
<v Speaker 1>We'll still let you take the bar. If you are

0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:03.200
<v Speaker 1>in Washington State, Virginia, Vermont, or California, they allow a

0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.639
<v Speaker 1>legal apprentice ship to swap out law school, which I

0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.600
<v Speaker 1>think is super kind of cool. Yeah, and Maine in

0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.680
<v Speaker 1>New York let you about like a year or two

0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:14.240
<v Speaker 1>about law school for an apprenticeship.

0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure, which is pretty neat. It's old schools

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.600
<v Speaker 2>to throw that kind of thing. Yeah, if you want

0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.120
<v Speaker 2>to take the bar exam, most of the time it's

0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.720
<v Speaker 2>given in February and July. Those are your two options.

0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:30.439
<v Speaker 2>And then you're gonna pay some money for it. And

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:32.520
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of ways you're gonna pay money for it.

0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Just to register to take it the bar exam itself.

0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:38.560
<v Speaker 2>It can be a few hundred dollars. It can be

0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.960
<v Speaker 2>more than one thousand dollars, depending on your state and

0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:44.679
<v Speaker 2>how greedy they are. Yeah, if you want to use

0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:47.320
<v Speaker 2>a laptop, you want to type out your briefs and

0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.640
<v Speaker 2>your memos and your essays rather than write them out

0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:55.159
<v Speaker 2>because you get hand cramps like the old lawyers used to. Yeah,

0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:57.560
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna have to pay a fee for that. And

0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.240
<v Speaker 2>the reason why is because there is no chance you

0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.639
<v Speaker 2>are going to be allowed to bring your own laptop

0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:07.440
<v Speaker 2>because they keep the the place so tight and are

0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:14.600
<v Speaker 2>so hawkish about preventing cheating that they actually provide tampons

0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.040
<v Speaker 2>to people who need them because you're not allowed to

0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:19.240
<v Speaker 2>bring in your own tampon.

0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.440
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Really, yeah, that's.

0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.679
<v Speaker 2>Happened, And apparently it's not just an isolated thing that

0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:29.600
<v Speaker 2>they have a bowl of tampons. Wow, you grab one

0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:31.120
<v Speaker 2>if you need it, and you hope that they don't

0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.360
<v Speaker 2>run out. If you really need it. So yeah, it's

0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.040
<v Speaker 2>it's like, there's no way you're bringing your own laptop in.

0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or tampon exactly. So wow, I never knew that.

0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:42.639
<v Speaker 1>That's a nice little tidbit.

0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Thanks. I thought that was pretty great too.

0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.960
<v Speaker 1>So, uh, you got to have money to register, Like

0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.760
<v Speaker 1>you said, you have to have money to you know

0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.159
<v Speaker 1>a lot of times people take off work for several months,

0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.560
<v Speaker 1>So you have to have a life that can do that,

0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, which indicates a certain amount of at least

0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.560
<v Speaker 1>either privilege or maybe hard work in saving if that's

0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:08.600
<v Speaker 1>how you did it, which is great. And then almost assuredly,

0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:11.919
<v Speaker 1>you have paid several thousand dollars, maybe as much as

0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:17.119
<v Speaker 1>six thousand dollars to take preparatory courses. About sixty percent

0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:19.960
<v Speaker 1>of the market share in the United States is a

0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:26.120
<v Speaker 1>company called barri Barbary can be up to six thousand,

0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.200
<v Speaker 1>maybe as low as eighteen hundred bucks, and they have

0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.320
<v Speaker 1>been around since the nineteen fifties. And I was like,

0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.280
<v Speaker 1>what does Barbarie stand for? And I had a weirdly

0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:39.080
<v Speaker 1>hard time finding out what it stood for until I

0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:41.240
<v Speaker 1>sadly Wikipedia just turned it up. I should have gone

0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:43.879
<v Speaker 1>to the most obvious place, but I think when they

0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:47.879
<v Speaker 1>merged in twenty twenty one or no, no, no, they merged

0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:51.320
<v Speaker 1>in the seventies, I think, And it was just the

0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:54.639
<v Speaker 1>names of two companies. I think Bay Area Review was

0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.159
<v Speaker 1>bar and the Bar Review Inc. Was Bri and so

0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.240
<v Speaker 1>they just squashed those together. Kind of a boring story.

0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:04.879
<v Speaker 2>I had seen that it was a merger of Barbizon

0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Modeling School Oh and Bree, meaning the makers of Bree

0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:10.160
<v Speaker 2>cheese around the world.

0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.800
<v Speaker 1>Wow, that's a that's a mashup I could enjoy.

0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, And the six thousand dollars one that you can

0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.480
<v Speaker 2>pay for like the premium test prep. They actually have

0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:22.480
<v Speaker 2>somebody to take the test for you, and they even

0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.440
<v Speaker 2>provide the person with a wig that matches your hair

0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:27.760
<v Speaker 2>so it looks a lot like you too.

0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:30.679
<v Speaker 1>I did see, though, they have a guarantee if you

0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:34.000
<v Speaker 1>do not if you pay that money to them and

0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:38.280
<v Speaker 1>you don't pass the bar, you I think, you get

0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.600
<v Speaker 1>to take the course again for free, one more time.

0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:42.080
<v Speaker 1>If you're taking the exam again.

0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:43.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, nice.

0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:45.199
<v Speaker 1>You don't get your money back, but you get to

0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:46.840
<v Speaker 1>retake the course at no charge. No.

0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:49.840
<v Speaker 2>Barbizon Modeling has long had a model you don't get

0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:50.600
<v Speaker 2>your money.

0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:52.440
<v Speaker 1>Back right, Yeah, exactly.

0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:56.960
<v Speaker 2>So let's break down the UBE the uniform Bar examination,

0:22:57.000 --> 0:23:01.040
<v Speaker 2>which is the culmination of decades of the National Conference

0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:07.000
<v Speaker 2>of Bar Examiners, hard work, sweat, blood, tears, joy pain. Yeah,

0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:08.960
<v Speaker 2>and again it's you can break it down in the

0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.879
<v Speaker 2>three parts that kind of came along separately. The first

0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:17.680
<v Speaker 2>remember was that multiple choice tests, the multi state bar examination. Yeah,

0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:20.760
<v Speaker 2>there's two hundred multiple choice questions. I've seen one hundred

0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:23.760
<v Speaker 2>and seventy five. I guess it depends on I don't

0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:26.600
<v Speaker 2>know your jurisdiction and how much how valuable they find

0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:27.680
<v Speaker 2>twenty five questions.

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:29.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, maybe, but it.

0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.240
<v Speaker 2>Covers seven different areas of the law.

0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:36.119
<v Speaker 1>You want to take them, sure, simple procedure, contracts of course,

0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:42.320
<v Speaker 1>nice towrts, oh, constitutional law, criminal law, that sexiest law,

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:46.240
<v Speaker 1>careful criminal on procedure, that is evidence which is its

0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:51.080
<v Speaker 1>own category, and real property kuching. And that is fifty

0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:55.359
<v Speaker 1>percent of the UB score. Then the other two are

0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:57.960
<v Speaker 1>the multi state essay once again, which is thirty percent,

0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:02.919
<v Speaker 1>and then the two multi state performance tasks and that

0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:03.919
<v Speaker 1>is twenty percent.

0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so you're like, okay, I could take that, no problem.

0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.480
<v Speaker 2>Sure you might be able to take it. You probably

0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:15.520
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't pass, and you'd give up twelve hours plus of

0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:19.199
<v Speaker 2>your life, twelve hours just of the test. It's spread

0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:22.119
<v Speaker 2>out over three days technically, but the UBE takes up

0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:26.000
<v Speaker 2>two of those days, twelve hours divided by two days

0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:28.800
<v Speaker 2>divided by four sessions. So three in the morning, three

0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:32.280
<v Speaker 2>in the afternoon, go to your hotel room, can't sleep,

0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:34.720
<v Speaker 2>toss and turn. Come back the next morning, three in

0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:36.240
<v Speaker 2>the morning, three in the afternoon.

0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:38.959
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, oh well we should mention too. That's another reason

0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:40.760
<v Speaker 1>you might be paying some extra money if you don't

0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:43.159
<v Speaker 1>live near a testing site, like travel and room and

0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:45.919
<v Speaker 1>board and all that stuff. Good point and scotch at

0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:46.520
<v Speaker 1>the end of the day.

0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:47.400
<v Speaker 2>Of course, that's right.

0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:52.000
<v Speaker 1>It's graded on a four hundred point scale. Depends on

0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:55.560
<v Speaker 1>the state on what they consider passing, generally to sixty

0:24:55.640 --> 0:25:00.600
<v Speaker 1>to two seventy. I said, state of course, jurisdiction. And

0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:05.120
<v Speaker 1>then apparently it's like, it's not like acing the bar

0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.639
<v Speaker 1>gets you anything more than passing the bar. You pass it,

0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:12.120
<v Speaker 1>and that's great. But I have some inside info from

0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:15.080
<v Speaker 1>attorney friends, which i'll kind of dabble in here and there,

0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:17.560
<v Speaker 1>but I think it's sort of untoward to you don't

0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:19.920
<v Speaker 1>go in and be like, oh, it's the bar. Yeah.

0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:23.199
<v Speaker 2>I saw a Reddit post where somebody posted like I

0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:26.320
<v Speaker 2>got a score of three thirty, and I mean, is

0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:28.760
<v Speaker 2>that high. I don't mean to make anybody who's got

0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:31.600
<v Speaker 2>lower than that feel bad, but I'm just curious, like

0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:34.119
<v Speaker 2>what do you guys think? And it was like you

0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:39.160
<v Speaker 2>discussed us like that is just sad. So yeah, it's

0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:42.080
<v Speaker 2>not really cool to flex on people over your.

0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:44.880
<v Speaker 1>Pass bar score. And you pass it, all that matters.

0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:48.160
<v Speaker 2>That's right. And then if you do pass, there's always

0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:54.120
<v Speaker 2>a gaggle of attorneys, usually quite experienced, seasoned attorneys who

0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:57.200
<v Speaker 2>just are waiting for you to finish, and when you finish,

0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:00.840
<v Speaker 2>they embrace you, and that's how you know that you've

0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:04.200
<v Speaker 2>passed the bar exam.

0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:07.760
<v Speaker 1>We did mention that those UB scores are portable. You

0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:10.920
<v Speaker 1>can It's not like the old days when you had

0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:13.520
<v Speaker 1>to pass that state's bar, you know. I think that's

0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:15.239
<v Speaker 1>how it used to be kind of across the board, right.

0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:19.399
<v Speaker 1>They're transferable for two to five years after taking the exam.

0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:23.800
<v Speaker 1>It depends on the jurisdiction, of course, and then if

0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:26.280
<v Speaker 1>they if you're in a jurisdiction that doesn't utilize that

0:26:26.400 --> 0:26:30.280
<v Speaker 1>UB test. Most of them still have the NB as

0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:33.360
<v Speaker 1>a big part of their exam, usually with their own

0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 1>specific like state laws stuff if they do that. And

0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:40.240
<v Speaker 1>there's usually also a third day, which you were talking

0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:43.520
<v Speaker 1>about earlier, that third test, which is like a sixty

0:26:43.600 --> 0:26:45.320
<v Speaker 1>question ethics test.

0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:50.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, it's called the Multi State Professional Responsibility Examination the

0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:55.160
<v Speaker 2>MPRE yes, and they ask you questions. It scored separately,

0:26:55.200 --> 0:26:58.520
<v Speaker 2>but they have questions like, you know, Attorney Lionel Hutts

0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:00.359
<v Speaker 2>brought in a bag of pot to one of his

0:27:01.000 --> 0:27:05.680
<v Speaker 2>one of his clients into prison. Is Attorney huts guilty

0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:06.720
<v Speaker 2>of loving too much?

0:27:07.240 --> 0:27:09.639
<v Speaker 1>Right? Was that a real Simpsons thing?

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:10.600
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:27:11.000 --> 0:27:12.320
<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, because I could see that.

0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:15.960
<v Speaker 2>They only really talked about pot, like on a couple

0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:19.600
<v Speaker 2>of really great episodes. But you know, no, that wasn't

0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:22.160
<v Speaker 2>their bag normally, that wasn't their bagot.

0:27:23.359 --> 0:27:24.960
<v Speaker 1>No, yeah, that wasn't their sack.

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Don't use that word.

0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, sack's kind of gross, isn't it moist? Oh boy?

0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:34.080
<v Speaker 1>What was the other one?

0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Moist? Sacugh or pussy? Go look that up in the transcript.

0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:45.439
<v Speaker 1>Don't do it. Let's talk about pass rates because it

0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:49.000
<v Speaker 1>really obviously depends on the state. They can vary pretty wildly. Actually,

0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:51.480
<v Speaker 1>from looking at some of these stats, I think for

0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:56.879
<v Speaker 1>first timers from July of this year's testing twenty twenty

0:27:56.880 --> 0:27:59.399
<v Speaker 1>five first time or pass rates there was a range

0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:03.320
<v Speaker 1>like from sixty six percent in Connecticut to almost ninety

0:28:03.320 --> 0:28:06.560
<v Speaker 1>percent in Utah. So go Utah. If you look at

0:28:06.600 --> 0:28:09.920
<v Speaker 1>overall rates, not necessarily just first timers twenty twenty five,

0:28:10.359 --> 0:28:13.160
<v Speaker 1>only fifty four percent in the state of Alabama, once

0:28:13.200 --> 0:28:15.320
<v Speaker 1>again compared to eighty six in Utah. So I don't

0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:16.800
<v Speaker 1>know what's in the water out there in Utah, but

0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:19.080
<v Speaker 1>those attorneys are sipping it up.

0:28:19.359 --> 0:28:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's widely considered a really easy state to pass

0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:22.600
<v Speaker 2>the bar.

0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:23.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh is it really?

0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:24.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:28:24.440 --> 0:28:25.120
<v Speaker 1>Oh? Interesting?

0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Okay, some very hard places to take the bar around

0:28:28.359 --> 0:28:37.200
<v Speaker 2>the world, actually that I saw Nigeria, Singapore, Korea, Japan, Ontario, Canada, Canada, Okay,

0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:41.000
<v Speaker 2>New York State all like New York States. Bar exam

0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:44.080
<v Speaker 2>is so difficult. It's like as hard as the entire

0:28:44.160 --> 0:28:48.800
<v Speaker 2>nations of Singapore's so there are. It definitely varies by

0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:51.600
<v Speaker 2>jurisdiction and by country just how hard it can be.

0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:55.360
<v Speaker 1>Wow, that's interesting. I do know that of the twenty

0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:57.840
<v Speaker 1>twenty two graduates this is just another sort of stat

0:28:57.880 --> 0:29:03.480
<v Speaker 1>for you. Over ninety percent graduates from accredited schools passed

0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:06.320
<v Speaker 1>within a couple of years. But there's from what I see,

0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:08.920
<v Speaker 1>there's really no shame for it to take a cracker

0:29:09.000 --> 0:29:12.360
<v Speaker 1>two to pass the bar. I don't think. I don't

0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:14.240
<v Speaker 1>know if it's something you're gonna like run around the

0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:16.760
<v Speaker 1>office telling people on your first day, but I don't

0:29:16.760 --> 0:29:18.200
<v Speaker 1>think it's like a mark of shame. There have been

0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:22.160
<v Speaker 1>plenty of very successful attorneys, very famous attorneys that didn't

0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:25.360
<v Speaker 1>pass the bar on the first go, including Michelle Obama

0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:31.240
<v Speaker 1>and Hillary Clinton and all the degens I think JFK Yeah,

0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:34.880
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of d ims. JFK. Junior, I think took

0:29:34.880 --> 0:29:39.840
<v Speaker 1>two or three times to pass, and old Kim Kardashian

0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:41.000
<v Speaker 1>took a time or two.

0:29:42.720 --> 0:29:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think three, three. And there's actually limits on

0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:49.440
<v Speaker 2>how many times you can take it, depending on your state,

0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:51.240
<v Speaker 2>your jurisdiction, your territory.

0:29:51.800 --> 0:29:54.680
<v Speaker 1>Oh well, they just say sorry once. It sounds like

0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:55.920
<v Speaker 1>you should try another line of work.

0:29:55.960 --> 0:29:57.960
<v Speaker 2>There are some places that say that, I don't know

0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:00.800
<v Speaker 2>if they actually say that. The gaggle of attorneys tell

0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:04.160
<v Speaker 2>you that when you fail the sixth time, But there

0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:08.440
<v Speaker 2>are other places that have discretionary rules where after you

0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:11.520
<v Speaker 2>reach a certain number, like say, I think six is

0:30:11.560 --> 0:30:15.680
<v Speaker 2>the highest I've seen, you can apply to take it again.

0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:18.000
<v Speaker 2>You can basically go to the state bar and be

0:30:18.080 --> 0:30:21.400
<v Speaker 2>like please, yeah, I want to be a lawyer so bad.

0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:23.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm just really terrible at this.

0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it is a test, and some people

0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:28.400
<v Speaker 1>aren't great test takers. We'll kind of talk about that

0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:32.240
<v Speaker 1>in a little bit. But also I imagine there's plenty

0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:33.840
<v Speaker 1>of things you can do with the law degree if

0:30:33.840 --> 0:30:34.760
<v Speaker 1>you haven't passed the bar.

0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:39.600
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah. I mean it's like you see somebody referred

0:30:39.640 --> 0:30:41.400
<v Speaker 2>to like, oh this is a lawyer or something, but

0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:43.760
<v Speaker 2>they have like they're in some field has nothing to

0:30:43.800 --> 0:30:47.000
<v Speaker 2>do with law. Yeah, you're just like they very frequently

0:30:47.000 --> 0:30:51.800
<v Speaker 2>are advisors, like just they know how how far you

0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:54.560
<v Speaker 2>can bend the law. Okay, A lot of stuff you

0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:55.360
<v Speaker 2>can do with it.

0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:58.200
<v Speaker 1>All right, Yeah, you always teach. I imagine, Oh.

0:30:58.200 --> 0:31:02.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's too. I have a little cute little addition

0:31:02.240 --> 0:31:03.840
<v Speaker 2>and dundum to this part.

0:31:04.600 --> 0:31:05.000
<v Speaker 1>Let's go.

0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:11.720
<v Speaker 2>The youngest person ever to pass the bar is Sophia Park.

0:31:12.800 --> 0:31:15.320
<v Speaker 2>She passed the bar in twenty twenty four at age

0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:19.080
<v Speaker 2>seventeen seventeen years eight months.

0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:20.920
<v Speaker 1>And was that after law school even.

0:31:20.760 --> 0:31:22.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she started law school at thirteen.

0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Uh, she's one of those.

0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:27.520
<v Speaker 2>So she beat the previous record by three months. The

0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:31.000
<v Speaker 2>previous record had been set at age I guess eighteen

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:35.840
<v Speaker 2>years in one month by her brother Peter. Isn't that

0:31:35.880 --> 0:31:39.480
<v Speaker 2>the nuts? It's the smart family, it is they really

0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:40.840
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be lawyers.

0:31:41.160 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or you know, are they practicing law or are

0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:46.360
<v Speaker 1>they just like I just wanted to show off.

0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:52.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh I believe they're both practicing law. Yeah, I guess, so, well,

0:31:52.080 --> 0:31:54.920
<v Speaker 2>should we take another break, Chuck? I guess we should.

0:31:55.320 --> 0:31:57.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, the one more little tidbit here at the end.

0:31:58.040 --> 0:32:00.960
<v Speaker 1>You know, we said that at a bar exam is

0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:04.320
<v Speaker 1>basically to say, hey, you can practice law. The one

0:32:04.360 --> 0:32:07.520
<v Speaker 1>other thing that it does is it helps determine what

0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:11.520
<v Speaker 1>schools can teach it because the ABA requires that law schools,

0:32:11.840 --> 0:32:14.520
<v Speaker 1>if you want to be an accredited law accredited law school,

0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:17.280
<v Speaker 1>a certain percentage of your graduates have to pass the

0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:20.480
<v Speaker 1>bar within two years, otherwise your accreditation goes away.

0:32:20.720 --> 0:32:24.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I saw seventy five percent of your graduates have

0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:24.880
<v Speaker 2>to pass.

0:32:25.120 --> 0:32:26.959
<v Speaker 1>All right, or they're like sorry, I guess you're not

0:32:27.000 --> 0:32:28.560
<v Speaker 1>teaching well enough exactly.

0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:31.800
<v Speaker 2>I wanted my ti bit to be last, so I'm

0:32:31.840 --> 0:32:35.480
<v Speaker 2>just going to repeat it now. Okay, I had on

0:32:35.560 --> 0:32:37.360
<v Speaker 2>second thought. We'll just go to break. How about that?

0:32:37.640 --> 0:33:10.840
<v Speaker 1>All right, we'll be right back. All right, So we're

0:33:10.880 --> 0:33:13.920
<v Speaker 1>back with more critiques and problems on the bar, because

0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:16.200
<v Speaker 1>if you start to do a little digging, it turns

0:33:16.200 --> 0:33:19.360
<v Speaker 1>out there's been a lot of a lot of that

0:33:19.400 --> 0:33:22.600
<v Speaker 1>over the years for a lot of different reasons. You know,

0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:25.680
<v Speaker 1>we've mentioned some of the stuff while it was developing, basically,

0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:29.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, banning people of color from even taking the

0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:33.040
<v Speaker 1>test for a long time. But black and Hispanic Americans

0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:37.680
<v Speaker 1>are still very underrepresented in the field of law. And

0:33:38.640 --> 0:33:42.320
<v Speaker 1>you know that's a problem because when you're a practicing attorney,

0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:46.320
<v Speaker 1>like a lot of opinion. That's why they call them opinions,

0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:48.840
<v Speaker 1>and judgment goes into it. And sure it's based on precedent,

0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:53.840
<v Speaker 1>but your perspective is important, and having diverse perspectives is

0:33:53.920 --> 0:33:54.680
<v Speaker 1>also important.

0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:59.760
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, for sure, it's a white male profession. Essentially,

0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:03.880
<v Speaker 2>statistically speaking, that is far and away the largest population

0:34:04.360 --> 0:34:08.080
<v Speaker 2>represented in the legal profession in the United States, and

0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:11.800
<v Speaker 2>there's statistics and figures that kind of show the disparity. Here.

0:34:12.640 --> 0:34:15.680
<v Speaker 2>There's some data from twenty twenty one from the American

0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:19.920
<v Speaker 2>Bar Association that showed that white law school graduates passed

0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:22.279
<v Speaker 2>on their first try at the bar exam at a

0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:26.440
<v Speaker 2>rate twenty four percent higher than black students, thirteen percent

0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:30.000
<v Speaker 2>higher than Hispanic students, and fifteen percent higher than Native Americans.

0:34:30.520 --> 0:34:35.040
<v Speaker 2>So those are really substantial disparities in passing the bar

0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:39.320
<v Speaker 2>the first time, and so being in the hot seat,

0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:43.120
<v Speaker 2>the National Conference of Bar Examiners is like, hey, hey, hey,

0:34:43.160 --> 0:34:47.320
<v Speaker 2>everybody mellow out here. This is this is this track

0:34:47.560 --> 0:34:55.200
<v Speaker 2>with other scoring of racial disparities, like law school grades,

0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:58.000
<v Speaker 2>l sac grades, Like this is in line with them.

0:34:58.080 --> 0:35:01.319
<v Speaker 2>Just leave the bar exam alone. And by the way,

0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:06.799
<v Speaker 2>their interpretation is that this is an example of long

0:35:06.920 --> 0:35:12.799
<v Speaker 2>standing systemic racial disparities in the American education system, right

0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:17.319
<v Speaker 2>that start way back long before the somebody gets to

0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:20.080
<v Speaker 2>law school and goes to take the bar, and that

0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:22.759
<v Speaker 2>the bar exam is just showing us, it's just reflecting

0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:26.719
<v Speaker 2>this problem elsewhere. So again, stop looking at the bar

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:29.240
<v Speaker 2>is essentially what the NCBE says.

0:35:29.560 --> 0:35:32.120
<v Speaker 1>It also kind of sounds like we're just a part

0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:37.920
<v Speaker 1>of the grand history of systemic discrimination throughout our country.

0:35:38.000 --> 0:35:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's a critique of them. Two people are like,

0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:44.480
<v Speaker 2>that's your answer, Like, yeah, we're just perpetuating an already

0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:47.880
<v Speaker 2>existing racial disparity. Like that's essentially what they're saying in

0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:48.520
<v Speaker 2>that argument.

0:35:48.880 --> 0:35:51.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a it's definitely a strange argument. Other people

0:35:52.000 --> 0:35:56.640
<v Speaker 1>say that, you know, just part of that disparity is,

0:35:56.840 --> 0:35:59.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, the cost associated with law school and to

0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:02.400
<v Speaker 1>be a successful candidate, and like we said, the privilege

0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:05.359
<v Speaker 1>that it takes to maybe be able to pay for

0:36:05.400 --> 0:36:07.920
<v Speaker 1>that and then take off month's work and pay for

0:36:08.120 --> 0:36:12.520
<v Speaker 1>the very best preparatory courses. You know, that's it's just

0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:15.960
<v Speaker 1>sort of all in the big soup of privilege, you know, right.

0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:18.600
<v Speaker 2>I saw that black and Hispanic students who take the

0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:22.000
<v Speaker 2>bar examer of fifty percent likely or to work during

0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:27.120
<v Speaker 2>their bar prep period then a white student, Like it's

0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:32.239
<v Speaker 2>just logistically speaking, racially speaking, it's just much likelier that

0:36:32.280 --> 0:36:35.440
<v Speaker 2>a white test taker is going to be able to

0:36:35.480 --> 0:36:38.839
<v Speaker 2>not work and just dedicate their time to prepping for

0:36:38.880 --> 0:36:42.920
<v Speaker 2>the bar. And I mean that alone explains a lot

0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:49.279
<v Speaker 2>of it, because the bar exam is essentially like it's

0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:53.879
<v Speaker 2>a standardized test that where you memorize essentially year one

0:36:54.000 --> 0:36:55.040
<v Speaker 2>law school stuff.

0:36:55.480 --> 0:36:57.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, that's one of the other critiques is

0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:04.400
<v Speaker 1>that you know, it's a memorization test, and there have

0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:07.239
<v Speaker 1>been plenty of studies that show that it doesn't necessarily

0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:10.960
<v Speaker 1>isn't a marker towards your future performance as an attorney

0:37:11.000 --> 0:37:13.920
<v Speaker 1>or you're like, you're how successful you may be. There

0:37:13.960 --> 0:37:18.120
<v Speaker 1>was a study in twenty twenty four from Nevada that

0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:22.960
<v Speaker 1>compared scores on the MB and other components of their

0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:25.600
<v Speaker 1>test of I think a little more than five hundred

0:37:25.680 --> 0:37:29.040
<v Speaker 1>new attorneys and how they were basically rated how affected

0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:31.480
<v Speaker 1>they were by their peers and their supervisors and judges.

0:37:31.920 --> 0:37:35.480
<v Speaker 1>And they did find a small positive relationship between some

0:37:35.520 --> 0:37:38.080
<v Speaker 1>of the ratings some parts of the bar, but at

0:37:38.120 --> 0:37:39.920
<v Speaker 1>the end of the day, overall they said it was

0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:46.160
<v Speaker 1>minimally predictive of career success and negligibly related. The Nevada

0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Performance Test was negligibly related to success.

0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:52.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, those low correlations were as low as one to

0:37:52.480 --> 0:37:55.240
<v Speaker 2>four percent. Yeah, I think four percent was the highest

0:37:55.880 --> 0:38:00.600
<v Speaker 2>as far as the actual whole bar exam. Relating to

0:38:00.680 --> 0:38:04.000
<v Speaker 2>these ratings of how effective these lawyers were by their peers,

0:38:04.560 --> 0:38:07.520
<v Speaker 2>they said, we can only account for that with twelve

0:38:07.520 --> 0:38:10.360
<v Speaker 2>percent of the Bar exam. The other the rest of

0:38:10.400 --> 0:38:15.120
<v Speaker 2>the distinctions or the differences in effectiveness, has nothing to

0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:17.799
<v Speaker 2>do with their score on the Bar exam. And so

0:38:17.840 --> 0:38:20.359
<v Speaker 2>people say like, well, what the heck is the bar

0:38:20.440 --> 0:38:24.080
<v Speaker 2>exam doing? And again the National Conference of Bar Examiners

0:38:24.120 --> 0:38:27.440
<v Speaker 2>are like, we're testing for lawyer competents to protect the

0:38:27.480 --> 0:38:30.800
<v Speaker 2>public dummy. And people say, well, how are you testing

0:38:30.880 --> 0:38:36.839
<v Speaker 2>for legal competence? Like what is legal competence? And this

0:38:36.880 --> 0:38:40.239
<v Speaker 2>is where the National Conference of Board Examiners like pull

0:38:40.280 --> 0:38:41.960
<v Speaker 2>their shirt away from their necks so you can see

0:38:42.000 --> 0:38:44.560
<v Speaker 2>like some sweat breaking out on their forehead because they've

0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:48.479
<v Speaker 2>never given a definition of competence. And if you don't

0:38:48.480 --> 0:38:51.239
<v Speaker 2>have a definition of competence, how can you in a

0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:55.640
<v Speaker 2>standardized way test people for whether they meet that definition

0:38:55.760 --> 0:38:59.600
<v Speaker 2>or not. So people say, like, the Bar exam under

0:38:59.640 --> 0:39:05.400
<v Speaker 2>that that description is by definition invalid, is not It's

0:39:05.560 --> 0:39:09.400
<v Speaker 2>not a valid test, meaning that it doesn't test the

0:39:09.440 --> 0:39:12.719
<v Speaker 2>thing it purports to test, because we just have no

0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:14.080
<v Speaker 2>idea what it is testing.

0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:17.840
<v Speaker 1>You know what you just sounded like what an attorney

0:39:18.960 --> 0:39:20.759
<v Speaker 1>sounds like? You just dropped the mic and court and

0:39:20.800 --> 0:39:23.759
<v Speaker 1>then sat down and I was to your just sat

0:39:23.760 --> 0:39:25.759
<v Speaker 1>down on your left and I put my hand on

0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:28.880
<v Speaker 1>your shoulder and was like, oh yeah, I'm man got them.

0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:32.919
<v Speaker 1>There's also been a lot of just sort of disasters

0:39:33.000 --> 0:39:35.719
<v Speaker 1>in recent years, very public ones in terms of the bar.

0:39:36.840 --> 0:39:41.359
<v Speaker 1>During COVID, they offered remote exams and it was just

0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:42.920
<v Speaker 1>sort of a joke in a lot of cases. There

0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:47.560
<v Speaker 1>were a lot of computer problems, like programs crashing, They

0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:51.600
<v Speaker 1>had facial recognition issues, and that sometimes they failed to

0:39:51.680 --> 0:39:55.799
<v Speaker 1>identify dark skin test takers. So that's that's bad right

0:39:55.840 --> 0:39:58.880
<v Speaker 1>off the bat. You also, again, you know, it was remote,

0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:00.279
<v Speaker 1>so you had to keep your eyes on the screen

0:40:00.320 --> 0:40:02.839
<v Speaker 1>at all times or they would think you're cheating if

0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:04.880
<v Speaker 1>you're looking around or looking into your lap or something.

0:40:04.920 --> 0:40:09.279
<v Speaker 1>So people were like literally urinating themselves in their seat

0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:13.400
<v Speaker 1>because they couldn't move. And one woman went into labor

0:40:13.920 --> 0:40:16.759
<v Speaker 1>and went through the test and gave birth and then

0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:18.799
<v Speaker 1>came home and finished the second day.

0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:21.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you want to know how tough Loyola University

0:40:22.040 --> 0:40:24.480
<v Speaker 2>law students are, there, you go.

0:40:25.520 --> 0:40:29.200
<v Speaker 1>What about California with the chet GPT questions?

0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:31.960
<v Speaker 2>This one it's kind of lost schadenfreud around it, but

0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:35.120
<v Speaker 2>California said, nuts to the UBE, we can do a

0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:39.080
<v Speaker 2>better program ourselves and save money. So they designed their

0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:43.879
<v Speaker 2>own bar exam, like just completely eschewed the uniform bar

0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:50.279
<v Speaker 2>examination right, and it just the rollout was horrible. There

0:40:50.280 --> 0:40:52.200
<v Speaker 2>were people who were taking the test. They would get

0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:56.000
<v Speaker 2>error messages, the program would crash during the test. It

0:40:56.040 --> 0:41:00.000
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't save their essays. Can you imagine finishing an essay

0:41:00.520 --> 0:41:02.400
<v Speaker 2>you can save it and they're like nope, sorry, do

0:41:02.480 --> 0:41:02.880
<v Speaker 2>it again.

0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:04.600
<v Speaker 1>That's every student's nightmare.

0:41:04.680 --> 0:41:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and remember this is time, Like you have three

0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:11.080
<v Speaker 2>hours per segment, right, Like, if you don't finish in time, sorry,

0:41:11.280 --> 0:41:14.080
<v Speaker 2>like you have to stop. So that's a huge part

0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:16.720
<v Speaker 2>of it. And then also, like you said, chat GPT,

0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:20.040
<v Speaker 2>it turned out was involved because some students were like, there,

0:41:20.080 --> 0:41:23.040
<v Speaker 2>like are misspellings and typos in some of these multiple

0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:26.560
<v Speaker 2>choice questions. In the California State Bar said wait.

0:41:26.400 --> 0:41:29.720
<v Speaker 1>What Yeah, it turns out that some of those questions

0:41:29.800 --> 0:41:34.760
<v Speaker 1>were chat beat GPT written by chat GPT. They weren't

0:41:34.840 --> 0:41:38.960
<v Speaker 1>even reviewed by a lawyer or a copy edited by

0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:42.560
<v Speaker 1>the state agency that oversaw the test. Because you know,

0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:45.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't know money, I guess.

0:41:45.360 --> 0:41:47.920
<v Speaker 2>And this was another case of lawyers suing lawyers and

0:41:48.000 --> 0:41:51.239
<v Speaker 2>lawyers suing their state bar and all that, and it

0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:54.960
<v Speaker 2>like California has just lost so much money on it.

0:41:55.080 --> 0:41:58.640
<v Speaker 2>Remember this is a money saving thing too, So again

0:41:58.719 --> 0:42:01.239
<v Speaker 2>there's like a little bit shoden Freud it too.

0:42:01.640 --> 0:42:04.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And there was one incident in New York where

0:42:04.920 --> 0:42:07.480
<v Speaker 1>someone went into cardiac arrest while taking the test. That

0:42:07.560 --> 0:42:10.160
<v Speaker 1>was this year in the July test, and you know,

0:42:10.200 --> 0:42:12.160
<v Speaker 1>people are like, you know, we should help here, right,

0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:15.240
<v Speaker 1>and the test proctors were like no, everyone be quiet,

0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:18.480
<v Speaker 1>and like, you know, just keep taking your test and

0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:21.200
<v Speaker 1>we'll deal with this in the next lunch break.

0:42:21.440 --> 0:42:23.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like they had to keep taking their tests while

0:42:23.640 --> 0:42:27.160
<v Speaker 2>the paramedics were saving this this person's life like next

0:42:27.160 --> 0:42:29.839
<v Speaker 2>to them. Essentially, that was what they were forced to do.

0:42:30.040 --> 0:42:35.000
<v Speaker 2>That's how I don't know, you choose remember where they

0:42:35.040 --> 0:42:38.560
<v Speaker 2>are about assigning these tests or carrying out these tests.

0:42:38.920 --> 0:42:41.040
<v Speaker 1>I was working at TV commercial one time as a

0:42:41.120 --> 0:42:44.600
<v Speaker 1>PA years ago out in the desert and in California,

0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:48.440
<v Speaker 1>and a crew member had a cardiac arrest and the

0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:51.000
<v Speaker 1>director told them to move a big fake rock in

0:42:51.040 --> 0:42:54.040
<v Speaker 1>front of and they were tending to the guy, but

0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:55.920
<v Speaker 1>they were like, we need to keep shooting, Like go

0:42:55.960 --> 0:42:58.440
<v Speaker 1>move that big fake rock in front of the paramedics

0:42:58.480 --> 0:42:59.360
<v Speaker 1>so we can keep shooting.

0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:01.799
<v Speaker 2>I guess it's better than the director being like, take

0:43:01.840 --> 0:43:04.799
<v Speaker 2>that fake rock and finish them off with it. Yeah, yeah,

0:43:04.840 --> 0:43:06.040
<v Speaker 2>and then drag them out of the way.

0:43:07.560 --> 0:43:09.920
<v Speaker 1>One thing I wondered, because I always kind of wonder like,

0:43:09.920 --> 0:43:11.799
<v Speaker 1>how would we do if we took the sat now,

0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:13.480
<v Speaker 1>like you know, at the stage in life or something.

0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:18.160
<v Speaker 1>I wondered about, like a really experienced attorney years later

0:43:18.160 --> 0:43:20.919
<v Speaker 1>if they took the bar again, and Lyvia dug into

0:43:20.960 --> 0:43:24.240
<v Speaker 1>that and found a study from twenty twenty one sixteen

0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:30.239
<v Speaker 1>like successful experience practicing attorneys from Oklahoma retook the bar

0:43:30.400 --> 0:43:33.000
<v Speaker 1>essentially with no prep. It was just like, you know,

0:43:33.040 --> 0:43:36.120
<v Speaker 1>their prep was their career on the theory that hey,

0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:40.000
<v Speaker 1>it's if it's measuring ability, then this should bear out

0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:43.399
<v Speaker 1>in the grades. And none of them passed. They got

0:43:43.680 --> 0:43:47.120
<v Speaker 1>scores ranging from twenty six to fifty two percent, so

0:43:47.239 --> 0:43:50.560
<v Speaker 1>nobody would have passed that bar, and the lawyers who

0:43:50.560 --> 0:43:52.719
<v Speaker 1>had been practicing the longest did the worst out of

0:43:52.760 --> 0:43:53.880
<v Speaker 1>all of them.

0:43:54.520 --> 0:43:58.160
<v Speaker 2>And then one general criticism of the bar exam two

0:43:59.600 --> 0:44:02.000
<v Speaker 2>in a day to everything else we've just talked about,

0:44:02.239 --> 0:44:06.759
<v Speaker 2>is that it doesn't in any real way kind of

0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:09.440
<v Speaker 2>jibe with what these lawyers are going to do in

0:44:09.480 --> 0:44:14.000
<v Speaker 2>the legal profession. Right, it's general questions about law generally

0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:17.560
<v Speaker 2>in the United States. Again, it's essentially the stuff you

0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:20.319
<v Speaker 2>learn in your first year at law school, because the

0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:22.840
<v Speaker 2>next two years you start to get into your specialization

0:44:24.120 --> 0:44:27.360
<v Speaker 2>and it's a lot of memory and memorization and a

0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:31.560
<v Speaker 2>lot of lawyering. After you graduate and go through the

0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:35.480
<v Speaker 2>bar and become an attorney is open book research to

0:44:35.520 --> 0:44:38.560
<v Speaker 2>figure out where law applies exactly. The bar exam is

0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:42.080
<v Speaker 2>closed book, rapid fire testing. So they're like, this is

0:44:42.120 --> 0:44:46.240
<v Speaker 2>not like even putting away everything else, all the other arguments.

0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:50.040
<v Speaker 2>At its base, it's kind of a flawed test to

0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:50.600
<v Speaker 2>start with.

0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:53.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. And because of that, there are a

0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:57.759
<v Speaker 1>lot of jurisdictions that have long had workarounds in alternatives,

0:44:58.400 --> 0:45:01.200
<v Speaker 1>and there are changes on the horizon for the bar itself.

0:45:01.560 --> 0:45:05.440
<v Speaker 1>Wisconsin it's the only state, I guess, only jurisdiction that

0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:09.440
<v Speaker 1>never stopped saying, hey, you went to law school and

0:45:09.640 --> 0:45:11.840
<v Speaker 1>you can practice law in the state. You don't have

0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:14.920
<v Speaker 1>to take the bar here, which is pretty cool. I

0:45:15.000 --> 0:45:16.840
<v Speaker 1>think you have to graduate from one of the states

0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:20.120
<v Speaker 1>to law schools there and they call it diploma privilege.

0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:22.800
<v Speaker 1>I think in the past couple of decades New Hampshire

0:45:23.400 --> 0:45:26.000
<v Speaker 1>has followed suit a little bit. And if you graduate

0:45:26.040 --> 0:45:29.960
<v Speaker 1>with honors from University of New Hampshire Law School and

0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:33.920
<v Speaker 1>you participate in court simulations and have practical experience, then

0:45:33.960 --> 0:45:36.319
<v Speaker 1>you can be admitted to practice law without the bar.

0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:40.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And we had said earlier that the law school

0:45:40.320 --> 0:45:44.800
<v Speaker 2>was originally created as an alternative to apprenticeship. Some states

0:45:44.800 --> 0:45:47.480
<v Speaker 2>have gone the other way now where the apprenticeships are

0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:49.920
<v Speaker 2>alternatives to law school. Like it's a path like that.

0:45:49.960 --> 0:45:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Bar I like it too. Vermont and Virginia they allow

0:45:53.239 --> 0:45:57.279
<v Speaker 2>apprenticeships instead of actually instead of the bar exams themselves.

0:45:58.160 --> 0:46:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Oregon offers apprenticeships where if you're a law school graduate,

0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:07.440
<v Speaker 2>you can become a lawyer without the bar exam. If

0:46:07.440 --> 0:46:10.479
<v Speaker 2>you apprentice for I think six hundred and seventy five

0:46:10.520 --> 0:46:15.400
<v Speaker 2>hours over four weeks in supervised work, you will basically

0:46:15.520 --> 0:46:16.960
<v Speaker 2>become a lawyer after.

0:46:16.760 --> 0:46:21.120
<v Speaker 1>That four weeks, four months, no, four years.

0:46:21.920 --> 0:46:24.760
<v Speaker 2>No, I was joking. There's only six hundred and seventy

0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:26.120
<v Speaker 2>five hours in four weeks.

0:46:26.160 --> 0:46:28.880
<v Speaker 1>So Oh, okay, we're.

0:46:28.520 --> 0:46:31.759
<v Speaker 2>Doing twenty four hours a day for a month as

0:46:31.800 --> 0:46:33.040
<v Speaker 2>an apprentice.

0:46:32.520 --> 0:46:35.160
<v Speaker 1>Which seems I'll assume your math checks out.

0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:38.120
<v Speaker 2>It does. I even used a calculator.

0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:42.959
<v Speaker 1>Oh great. I think Washington State has a plan coming

0:46:43.000 --> 0:46:45.239
<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty six, so more states are kind of

0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:49.320
<v Speaker 1>getting on board with this. California last year actually rejected

0:46:49.320 --> 0:46:54.240
<v Speaker 1>a proposal to become more like Oregon with those apprenticeship hours,

0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:57.280
<v Speaker 1>even though the State Bar of California's Board of Trustee said,

0:46:57.320 --> 0:46:59.120
<v Speaker 1>we think this is a good idea, right, the State

0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:02.719
<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court said no, no, no, no. But coming around

0:47:02.719 --> 0:47:05.160
<v Speaker 1>the corner, now we have the next gen bar exam, right.

0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the NCB is like everybody settled out, So starting

0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:11.520
<v Speaker 2>in twenty eighteen, they're like, we're going to change this

0:47:11.600 --> 0:47:14.759
<v Speaker 2>a little bit. The test's going to be shorter, we're

0:47:14.760 --> 0:47:16.600
<v Speaker 2>going to make it so it's possible to take it

0:47:16.680 --> 0:47:21.239
<v Speaker 2>remotely if need be. And then it's it's just going

0:47:21.320 --> 0:47:24.120
<v Speaker 2>to be a little different where I think it's a

0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:27.160
<v Speaker 2>little more sa heavy than the original test. But they're

0:47:27.160 --> 0:47:29.759
<v Speaker 2>also carving out some stuff that they're not going to

0:47:29.800 --> 0:47:32.000
<v Speaker 2>test on, like family law and that kind of thing.

0:47:32.719 --> 0:47:36.360
<v Speaker 2>So it's a little leaner, meaner kind of bar exam

0:47:36.400 --> 0:47:40.440
<v Speaker 2>that they're coming up with. All Right, two things that

0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:43.319
<v Speaker 2>I saw that are worth mentioning real quick. If you

0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:45.440
<v Speaker 2>do away with the bar exam. There's a couple of

0:47:45.680 --> 0:47:48.520
<v Speaker 2>benefits to that. One is that it puts the onus

0:47:48.520 --> 0:47:53.719
<v Speaker 2>on law schools themselves to graduate competent lawyers. Right now,

0:47:53.760 --> 0:47:56.520
<v Speaker 2>there are some law schools that are considered diploma mills

0:47:57.200 --> 0:48:01.560
<v Speaker 2>because as long as seventy five percent of your graduating's past

0:48:01.680 --> 0:48:05.560
<v Speaker 2>the bar within two years, like, you stay accredited and

0:48:05.600 --> 0:48:07.600
<v Speaker 2>you can make a lot of money off that other

0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:11.720
<v Speaker 2>twenty five percent. That's one thing that would happen. Another

0:48:11.760 --> 0:48:15.160
<v Speaker 2>one is that legal fees would probably come down because

0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:18.600
<v Speaker 2>one of the functions of gatekeeping that the bar exam

0:48:18.640 --> 0:48:23.640
<v Speaker 2>does is it artificially keeps the supply of lawyers low,

0:48:24.120 --> 0:48:28.399
<v Speaker 2>which artificially inflates the fees associated with lawyers too.

0:48:29.040 --> 0:48:32.840
<v Speaker 1>Ah, pretty think about that. Yeah, Yeah. I spoke to

0:48:32.920 --> 0:48:36.400
<v Speaker 1>my friend. I think I know a few attorneys here

0:48:36.400 --> 0:48:38.320
<v Speaker 1>and there, but only like one good friend who's a

0:48:38.400 --> 0:48:42.600
<v Speaker 1>lawyer who is electing to remain anonymous in this case.

0:48:43.400 --> 0:48:45.360
<v Speaker 1>But I did text him kind of about all this,

0:48:45.480 --> 0:48:47.360
<v Speaker 1>and he said I would say it's only useful and

0:48:47.440 --> 0:48:49.960
<v Speaker 1>that it shows how you can collect and synthesize a

0:48:49.960 --> 0:48:53.040
<v Speaker 1>lot of information under time pressure. But that's not really

0:48:53.120 --> 0:48:55.960
<v Speaker 1>much different than most standardized tests. But as far as

0:48:56.040 --> 0:48:58.239
<v Speaker 1>being an indicator of how you'll be as a practitioner,

0:48:58.719 --> 0:49:01.200
<v Speaker 1>yet not so much. He says, for example, the bar

0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:03.360
<v Speaker 1>will test you to some extent on the rules of

0:49:03.360 --> 0:49:05.440
<v Speaker 1>civil procedure, but passing the bar doesn't mean you can

0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:07.960
<v Speaker 1>walk into a deposition the day after you pass and

0:49:08.000 --> 0:49:10.680
<v Speaker 1>know how to do that. As someone who's taken hundreds

0:49:10.719 --> 0:49:13.640
<v Speaker 1>of depositions, you learn by watching, listening to more experience

0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:16.920
<v Speaker 1>attorneys do it, and then by trial and error, no

0:49:17.000 --> 0:49:21.080
<v Speaker 1>pun intended, doing it yourself. He is in favor of

0:49:21.200 --> 0:49:24.480
<v Speaker 1>the apprenticeships. He said it's probably a lot more helpful

0:49:24.600 --> 0:49:26.440
<v Speaker 1>as long as your mentor, you know, knew what they

0:49:26.480 --> 0:49:30.840
<v Speaker 1>were doing, and then said one thing he would like

0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:36.600
<v Speaker 1>to see change is, like, I think more emphasis on writing.

0:49:37.520 --> 0:49:39.520
<v Speaker 1>He said, I see so many briefs written by someone

0:49:39.520 --> 0:49:42.600
<v Speaker 1>who allegedly passed the bar. They're just horrible. He said

0:49:42.600 --> 0:49:45.359
<v Speaker 1>that's probably just a criticism of the legal education more

0:49:45.360 --> 0:49:47.920
<v Speaker 1>than the bar, and then he said he wanted to

0:49:47.960 --> 0:49:50.920
<v Speaker 1>remain anonymous, and he said, I know it sounds silly

0:49:51.400 --> 0:49:53.880
<v Speaker 1>or overly cautious when there are Scotis justices who can

0:49:53.920 --> 0:49:57.719
<v Speaker 1>accept luxury vacations with impunity. But I'm supposed to be

0:49:57.719 --> 0:50:00.160
<v Speaker 1>impartial here, so writing on the bar might not a

0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:00.560
<v Speaker 1>good look.

0:50:00.880 --> 0:50:04.680
<v Speaker 2>I think that's smart. Yeah, you got anything else?

0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:06.200
<v Speaker 1>I got nothing else.

0:50:06.320 --> 0:50:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, thanks for tapping your anonymous friend. That was good info. Sure,

0:50:11.080 --> 0:50:13.960
<v Speaker 2>if you wanted to learn more about the bar exam,

0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:16.600
<v Speaker 2>could take the bar exam and in the meantime it's

0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:17.640
<v Speaker 2>time for listener mail.

0:50:20.160 --> 0:50:22.240
<v Speaker 1>It'd be kind of fun I mean, if it was free,

0:50:22.280 --> 0:50:24.840
<v Speaker 1>I would take the bar exam just to like, with

0:50:25.200 --> 0:50:28.400
<v Speaker 1>zero knowledge of anything, just to see like how poorly

0:50:28.440 --> 0:50:28.799
<v Speaker 1>I would do.

0:50:28.960 --> 0:50:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I would too. I'd be right next to you,

0:50:30.960 --> 0:50:33.719
<v Speaker 2>peeing in my seat and going into labor and having

0:50:33.760 --> 0:50:34.440
<v Speaker 2>a heart attack.

0:50:35.280 --> 0:50:36.120
<v Speaker 1>Wouldn't that be funny?

0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:36.279
<v Speaker 2>Though?

0:50:36.280 --> 0:50:38.400
<v Speaker 1>If we got like I don't know, even like a

0:50:38.480 --> 0:50:39.840
<v Speaker 1>twenty percent or something.

0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:43.040
<v Speaker 2>Or if we passed and we just automatically became lawyers.

0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's do it. All right, all right, this is

0:50:45.920 --> 0:50:48.520
<v Speaker 1>about the Sultan Sea. You called for a listener mail, right,

0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:50.880
<v Speaker 1>all right, Hey, guys, I was listening to the saltan

0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:55.040
<v Speaker 1>sea episode. In college, I took an ocean geography class

0:50:55.040 --> 0:50:58.120
<v Speaker 1>and learned about inland seas an inland sea, because remember

0:50:58.160 --> 0:51:01.399
<v Speaker 1>we sort of wondered difference between seas lakes. He said,

0:51:01.400 --> 0:51:03.480
<v Speaker 1>an inland sea can either be entirely landlocked or have

0:51:03.520 --> 0:51:06.319
<v Speaker 1>a single river connected to the ocean. Inland seas are

0:51:06.360 --> 0:51:09.919
<v Speaker 1>larger than lakes and have a salinity between a lake

0:51:09.960 --> 0:51:13.160
<v Speaker 1>and an ocean. So I think you've mentioned something about salinity.

0:51:14.280 --> 0:51:17.200
<v Speaker 1>They are typically remnants of larger oceans and have numerous islands.

0:51:17.200 --> 0:51:19.960
<v Speaker 1>But of course the scientific community names these things, and

0:51:20.040 --> 0:51:23.760
<v Speaker 1>sometimes it can be rather confusing. The Caspian Sea, for example,

0:51:24.000 --> 0:51:26.560
<v Speaker 1>it is classified as a lake despite being known as

0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:29.080
<v Speaker 1>the largest inland sea in the world. And the Hudson

0:51:29.440 --> 0:51:34.440
<v Speaker 1>Bay is an island sea, which is Did you know.

0:51:34.440 --> 0:51:36.239
<v Speaker 2>That an island sea or inland sea?

0:51:37.360 --> 0:51:40.320
<v Speaker 1>He says island but probably meant inland.

0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:43.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I didn't, So I had no idea whether it's

0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:46.520
<v Speaker 2>an island sea or an inland sea. I had no idea.

0:51:47.440 --> 0:51:53.560
<v Speaker 1>Or Dylan's favorite sea is the Larapentine Sea or the

0:51:53.719 --> 0:51:57.520
<v Speaker 1>La Rapentine Sea. It's an ancient sea that split Australia

0:51:57.560 --> 0:52:01.319
<v Speaker 1>in half during the Cambrian explosion. Being a longtime listener

0:52:01.440 --> 0:52:04.080
<v Speaker 1>learning about new things is the best part of my commute. Guys,

0:52:04.440 --> 0:52:05.200
<v Speaker 1>that is from Dylan.

0:52:05.440 --> 0:52:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Thanks a lot, Dylan, that was great info. I still

0:52:08.320 --> 0:52:11.320
<v Speaker 2>like your interpretation, Chuck, which I if I remember correctly,

0:52:11.360 --> 0:52:15.440
<v Speaker 2>you were saying that an inland a lake would be landlocked.

0:52:15.480 --> 0:52:19.440
<v Speaker 1>I think, yeah, I mean it sounds like there's no

0:52:19.680 --> 0:52:20.400
<v Speaker 1>true definition.

0:52:20.440 --> 0:52:23.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, and let's keep going with yours. Great

0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:26.640
<v Speaker 2>nice try, Dylan. If you want to be like Dylan

0:52:26.719 --> 0:52:29.040
<v Speaker 2>and send us a great email, you can send it

0:52:29.120 --> 0:52:35.040
<v Speaker 2>off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:52:35.200 --> 0:52:38.040
<v Speaker 1>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

0:52:38.160 --> 0:52:42.319
<v Speaker 1>more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:52:42.440 --> 0:52:44.280
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