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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is one of

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Speaker 2: those good old fashioned rootin tootin Rudy Fruity episodes of

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Speaker 2: Stuff you Should.

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Speaker 1: Know Rudy two D fresh and Fruity.

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Speaker 2: That's right, I forgot the rest of it, but yes,

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Speaker 2: you knew what I was laying down?

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Speaker 1: Can I shock you right off the bat?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: I don't think I have ever been in an I

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Speaker 1: hoop restaurant and eden M I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: See, this is normally where I'd be like, what yeah,

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Speaker 2: But I don't think you're missing enough to warrant what yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean if it was always waffle house, if we

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Speaker 1: were going to do something like that. So yeah, never

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Speaker 1: been in an Eyehup.

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Speaker 2: The two are actually not really that comparable, to tell

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Speaker 2: you the truth. I mean there, if you went to

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Speaker 2: a waffle House and then went to an ihop, you

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be like been to one, been to the other.

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Speaker 2: Their their menus are different enough, the vibes different enough.

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Speaker 1: Is I have more relatable to like a Denny's? Yes, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I've been to Denny's, but.

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Speaker 2: Okay, much, then you don't need to go to ihup.

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Speaker 1: Can we thank the listener who suggested this episode?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember their email, but I don't remember their name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I finally actually wrote it down and we're

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Speaker 1: not doing it weeks later. But this came from listener Rowan.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure how to pronounce this last name,

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Speaker 1: but I'm gonna go with Garin DESSI that's a great name,

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Speaker 1: Garon Daisy.

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Speaker 2: I like Garan Daisy more because of the daisy part.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but Rowan wrote in and I was like, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I think someone in Rowan's life had taken

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Speaker 1: the bar and I think they realized that they didn't

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Speaker 1: know much about it. And I was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've never really thought much about the bar exam and

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Speaker 1: I don't know anything about it.

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Speaker 2: Well, didn't they also send like a little clip or

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Speaker 2: a an anecdote about how crazy it gets during the test,

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Speaker 2: like how nuts people will will or what Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: links they'll go to to finish?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think I do remember that. Actually, Well,

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Speaker 1: save it, save it.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about the bar exam. Chuck. For those people

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Speaker 2: who aren't aware, and from what I can understand, essentially

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Speaker 2: every country in the world that has lawyers has a

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Speaker 2: bar exam. But it's the test that you have to

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Speaker 2: take in most places to become a practicing attorney, to

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Speaker 2: become licensed as an attorney. And that's it. There's bar

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Speaker 2: exam everybody, goodbye.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. And you know they the word bar is

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Speaker 1: there because I think it's named after the literal bar

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Speaker 1: railing in a courtroom that divides the public from you know,

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Speaker 1: the business end.

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Speaker 2: Right where they yeah, where you're not really supposed to

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Speaker 2: go past, or else a baylift will jump on you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: I remember there was a local news story once about

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Speaker 2: a judge who'd been drinking like during work, huh, and

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Speaker 2: like they followed him, like on his lunch hour and

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Speaker 2: followed him into like a place where he was drinking.

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Speaker 2: They were like teeing up the story and they said,

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Speaker 2: this judge not only passed the bar, he went in

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Speaker 2: and drank at it. And that I mean, like I

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Speaker 2: saw that fifteen years ago and it stuck with me

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Speaker 2: ever since.

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Speaker 1: That's so lazy it is, but I mean.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was pretty good to tell you the truth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, that's like when Neil days when we were

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Speaker 1: writers for Howstuff Works dot com, and like a shining

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Speaker 1: week is when I wrote a clever what do you

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Speaker 1: call the thing under the picture caption caption? Now I

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Speaker 1: can't even remember cap with the word caption.

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Speaker 2: That's been a whole Do you remember any good ones?

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Speaker 1: No? No, But I was like, hey, I'm gonna check

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Speaker 1: this out. I wrote a clever caption. It was my

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Speaker 1: first professional writing job, so I was, you know, showing pride. No.

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Speaker 2: I remember that. We used to tell one another there

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Speaker 2: are great clever captions. Yeah, this one music lyrics we'd

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Speaker 2: fit in two articles that we just thought we were

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Speaker 2: so sly about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and now we just say dumb things with our mouths.

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Speaker 2: Right. Well, I feel like we've shaken off all of

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Speaker 2: the curious lawyers who don't normally listen to us, so

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Speaker 2: we can get started everybody. One of the things about

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Speaker 2: the bar exam I never understood, and I would guess

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Speaker 2: also that most people out there who aren't attorneys or

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Speaker 2: aspiring attorneys wouldn't really get. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: criticism about the bar exam. It's it's not just some

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Speaker 2: tests that lawyers have to take to get licensed, which

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Speaker 2: on its face sounds great because like with any professional

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Speaker 2: licensing that protects the public from incompetent lawyers, they have

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Speaker 2: to show that they understand the minimum standard of how

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Speaker 2: to practice law that will prevent them from being such

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Speaker 2: a dipstick that their clients are going to get electrocuted

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Speaker 2: because they represented them so poorly. It's way way more

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Speaker 2: kit than that. Yeah, socially speaking, culturally speaking, socio culturally speaking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because you don't want to end up with the

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Speaker 1: Lionel Huts, right.

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Speaker 2: No, he almost certainly did not pass the bar.

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Speaker 1: Well, well, we'll get to it, but you don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: have to pass the bar in every state in the

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Speaker 1: United States to practice law. But sit on it, everybody,

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Speaker 1: because that's coming. I guess we should go back in

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Speaker 1: time and talk about a little bit of the history

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Speaker 1: because if you go back to colonial days, pre states

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Speaker 1: in the United States or not in the United States,

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Speaker 1: but you know what will one day be the United States,

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Speaker 1: and then.

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Speaker 2: Buy the rest of the curious lawyers Exactly.

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Speaker 1: There were no bar exams because there were no law schools.

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Speaker 1: If you wanted to work as a lawyer, you would

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Speaker 1: apprentice or clerk for a practicing lawyer for you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you would just do it and donate your time

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Speaker 1: to working for them. Sometimes you would do that and

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Speaker 1: actually pay them right, which you know, it seems like

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Speaker 1: a pretty good system. And we'll talk more about apprenticing

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Speaker 1: later because for my money, I think that's a pretty

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Speaker 1: good way to do things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But by seventeen fifty, which pretty early on, all of

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Speaker 1: the colonies got on board basically and said, all right,

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Speaker 1: we need we need standards for people to do this job,

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Speaker 1: and we need to kind of all agree on what

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Speaker 1: that's going to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And like a lot of stuff or most things

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Speaker 2: with American law, they were following in the tradition of England,

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Speaker 2: which had had some sort of exam or another for

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Speaker 2: people to become attorneys as far back as the sixteenth century.

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Speaker 2: But America wasn't that far behind, you know, a couple

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Speaker 2: hundred years apparently. The first one was Delaware in seventeen

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Speaker 2: eighty three, and it was essentially just you would go

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Speaker 2: and hang out with a judge and they would quiz

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Speaker 2: you on some legal stuff. Yeah, and if you got

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Speaker 2: it right, you were you were accepted to the bar.

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Speaker 2: You were an attorney. From that point on it was

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Speaker 2: okay for you to practice. It was all so supposedly

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Speaker 2: looked on as very easy too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I imagine a lot of that depended on the

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Speaker 1: judge that you got in, like maybe how much they

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Speaker 1: liked you. In those early days, it was really sort

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Speaker 1: of the wild wild West there. Libya helped us with this,

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Speaker 1: and she dug up a pretty fun story about Abraham Lincoln,

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Speaker 1: who was a bar examiner for the state of Illinois

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen fifties and was apparently just like at

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Speaker 1: a hotel chatting with a lawyer in a room, and

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Speaker 1: the lawyer answered a few questions and Lincoln was like, congratulations,

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Speaker 1: you're an attorney.

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Speaker 2: So great man. Yeah, yeah, I love that story too.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I can just see Lincoln butting it out

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Speaker 2: so casually.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the takeaway is the guy didn't even

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Speaker 1: know the test had begun.

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Speaker 2: Essentially, No, he had no idea exactly. I'm glad you

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Speaker 2: added that part.

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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Speaker 2: So the actual first written bar exam, kind of like

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Speaker 2: they are today, that popped up around eighteen fifty five,

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Speaker 2: I think in Massachusetts, and then it became a requirement

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Speaker 2: about twenty years later in Suffolk County, where Boston wasn't.

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Speaker 2: By nineteen twenty, written exams were like the way to go.

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Speaker 2: And because now it wasn't just getting quizzed with the judge,

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Speaker 2: law school started popping up and developing to kind of

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Speaker 2: train you to prepare for that written exam at the

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Speaker 2: very least, and they actually became an alternative to apprenticing, which,

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Speaker 2: as you'll see later on, is kind of inverted these days.

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Speaker 2: But that was something you could do if, like say,

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Speaker 2: all of the lawyers in your town were jerks. You

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Speaker 2: could go to a law school instead of apprenticing. When

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Speaker 2: you graduated law school, then you could take your bar exam.

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Speaker 2: Those were your two ways, your two paths to the

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Speaker 2: bar exam back then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, by nineteen twenty one, the American Bar Association was

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Speaker 1: around and they said, you know, we really prefer a

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Speaker 1: written exam to license. They I don't think they mandated

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Speaker 1: it that point, yeah, but they, you know, states generally

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Speaker 1: kind of fell in line behind the ABA, and I

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Speaker 1: think by nineteen thirty one, another decade later, the American

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Speaker 1: Association of Law Schools got together with the committee and

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Speaker 1: they said, all right, we need to develop a real

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Speaker 1: system here. So they came together with the National Conference

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Speaker 1: of Bar Examiners, and at that time nineteen thirties, they

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Speaker 1: were really like the testing that they were concerned about

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Speaker 1: was what they called black letter law, just sort of

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Speaker 1: really unambiguous black and white yes or no answers to

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Speaker 1: things on like you know, how things are literally legally

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Speaker 1: defined and not a lot of like you know, hypotheticals

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Speaker 1: being bandied about which you're going to get stuff, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: which you're going to get more these days in the

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Speaker 1: bar exam.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but one of the problems with taking a test

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Speaker 2: like that is that your hand can get cramped. They

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Speaker 2: didn't want prospective lawyers hands cramping. So in nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 2: the National Conference of Bar Examiners came up with the

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Speaker 2: Multi State Bar exis Amination, and that created a multiple

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Speaker 2: choice test. Yeah, it also really kind of dug into

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Speaker 2: like your knowledge. But at the same time you can

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Speaker 2: also say, like this is where it became a little

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Speaker 2: more standardized and less lucy goosey. But in that sense

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Speaker 2: it also became a little more scientific minded by creating

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Speaker 2: a test that you can say this is right, this

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Speaker 2: is wrong. And it wasn't just legal terms. They were

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Speaker 2: applying it to hypothetic hypothetical situations, but it was still

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Speaker 2: multiple choice, so you could grate it much more easily.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know how I feel about multiple choice

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Speaker 1: in a test like this. Anytime you can sort of guess, right,

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Speaker 1: I don't think you can necessarily guess your way to success.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think you just came up with a T shirt

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Speaker 2: guess your way to success.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, and then on the back just ABCD and

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Speaker 1: just a check mark next to the sea. All the above,

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Speaker 1: all of the above, go ahead, you go ahead. No. Well,

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Speaker 1: as this is sort of developing over the decades, I

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Speaker 1: think we're at the seventies here, but it kind of

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Speaker 1: became clear during this period that, like, hey, what we've

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Speaker 1: got here as a gate keeping service? Essentially Ostensibly the

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Speaker 1: reason was, like you said, is like we want to

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Speaker 1: keep only like you know, really knowledgeable people that know

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Speaker 1: what they're doing in these jobs to protect people that

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Speaker 1: hire them for lots and lots of money. But as

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Speaker 1: this was happening, it became even more clear that there

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Speaker 1: was a side effect of that, which was, you know, immigrants,

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Speaker 1: black people, other people of color that were vying to

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Speaker 1: become attorneys were having a harder time. And this is evidence.

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Speaker 1: Really early on in nineteen twelve, they accidentally admitted three

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Speaker 1: black attorneys into the ABA, and because they didn't have

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Speaker 1: you know, like check here for race, and then they

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Speaker 1: were like, oh goodness, we accidentally let in three blacks attorneys,

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Speaker 1: so we need to start screening basically for race.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they said, we need to add a check here

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Speaker 2: for race thing on the application to take the bar exam,

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Speaker 2: and that's essentially what they did. So from nineteen twelve

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Speaker 2: all the way to nineteen forty three, if you checked

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Speaker 2: African American or god knows what they had down for

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Speaker 2: you to check back, then you were just not allowed

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Speaker 2: to take the bar exam. Sorry. Yeah, like this is

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Speaker 2: it was an actual, like you said, a gatekeeping mechanism

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Speaker 2: to prevent black people from becoming lawyers in the United States.

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Speaker 2: And so in nineteen twenty five, prospective black lawyers said

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Speaker 2: nuts to that, and they got together with actual black

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Speaker 2: lawyers and they came up with the National Bar Association,

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Speaker 2: which is still around today as an alternative for black

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Speaker 2: attorneys to basically become attorneys rather than have to go

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Speaker 2: through the ABA.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, since then, especially in like thenineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: there there seemed to be like a series of lawsuits

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Speaker 1: from black lawyers in different states that were suing over

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Speaker 1: various what they thought were, you know, discriminatory policies within

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Speaker 1: the test. I don't think many of those were successful though,

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Speaker 1: were they No.

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Speaker 2: The one that sticks out the most that I've heard

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Speaker 2: the most described as well just basically A good example

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Speaker 2: of the lawsuits that came around at this time was

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Speaker 2: Tyler versus Vickery, Yeah, or Tyler v. Vickery if you're

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Speaker 2: a lawyer. It was a class action suit that alleged

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Speaker 2: that Georgia's bar examination's cut score, which is the minimum

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Speaker 2: score you have to have to pass, had been adjusted

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Speaker 2: with the introduction of the multi state Bar exam, remember

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Speaker 2: the multiple choice tests that they introduced, That it had

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Speaker 2: basically been introduced in designed to continue to keep black

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Speaker 2: people from passing the bar exam. And the Fifth Court

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Speaker 2: of Georgia said, we don't really think that's true. For

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Speaker 2: some reason, they said, we don't see any intent to discriminate,

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Speaker 2: which is neither here nor there under Title seven of

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Speaker 2: the Civil Rights Act, which prevents employment discrimination. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: they also said, here's the thing. The bar. The American

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Speaker 2: Bar Association is not an employer, they're not a labor organization,

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Speaker 2: they're not an employment agency, so therefore Title seven doesn't

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Speaker 2: really apply to them. And the court said ABA continue

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Speaker 2: to discriminate through the bar exam as you see fit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that I don't know much about lawyer stuff, and my.

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Speaker 2: Spit about lawyer.

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Speaker 1: In my spit in my civilian mind, I see that

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Speaker 1: as kind of a punt legally speaking. And maybe that

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Speaker 1: was that, maybe that's you know, a lot of times

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Speaker 1: you decide something on precedent, and whether or not you

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Speaker 1: feel it's right or not, that's just the precedent. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know, that felt like a punt to me

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Speaker 1: by saying like, well, they're not an employer and an

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Speaker 1: agency or labor organization, so we're just sort of not

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Speaker 1: going to hear this one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And this reveals to me something that I just

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Speaker 2: find fascinating is when lawyers sue other lawyers or bodies

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Speaker 2: of lawyers, or judges rule on the test that it

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Speaker 2: takes to create lawyers and therefore judges, it just seems

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Speaker 2: so fraud with basically opinion because they're so like, it's

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Speaker 2: not like the judges learning about this for the first time.

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Speaker 2: They're coming at it from fresh eyes, like this is

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Speaker 2: like part of their fabric as having been a law

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Speaker 2: student and becoming a lawyer and then becoming a judge.

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Speaker 2: You know, I just find it fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Should we wrap up sort of the testing

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Speaker 1: stuff and then take a break.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get back into the evolution of the test again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So now we're in the late eighties, nineteen eighty eight,

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Speaker 1: I'm a junior in high school, still seeking that first kiss,

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Speaker 1: and the NCBE has added the Multi State Essay Examination

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Speaker 1: at this point, so now you're back to essaying, which

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00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,120
Speaker 1: is how it previously had been until that multiple choice test.

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Speaker 1: And in ninety seven it handed over the Multi State

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Speaker 1: Performance Test, or the MPT, which says, hey, let's sort

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Speaker 1: of do like do some practice stuff like right up

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Speaker 1: a brief for me, or write out a memo, draft

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Speaker 1: a memo. Let's see how you do on that. And

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Speaker 1: then finally, in twenty eleven, the Uniform Bar Exam or

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Speaker 1: the UBE was adopted by most states, where all three

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Speaker 1: of those tests kind of make that one up as

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Speaker 1: one big test.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is, you know, if you're a state and

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Speaker 2: you don't feel like going to the trouble of coming

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Speaker 2: up with your entire your own bar exam. Now you

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Speaker 2: can just use the UB. Yeah, and it's it's proven. Likes,

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Speaker 2: there's all sorts of great questions in there. You sacrificed

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Speaker 2: state law. But a lot of people say, like, well,

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Speaker 2: like law students don't need to sit around and memorize

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Speaker 2: state law. That's a waste of time in favor of

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Speaker 2: the UBE, which is pretty rich because a lot of

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Speaker 2: people argue that the UB itself is a waste of

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Speaker 2: time because you have to memorize general law rather than

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Speaker 2: state law, which we'll talk more about that. I just

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Speaker 2: I'm chomping at the bit right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it did make it like more easy to

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Speaker 1: transfer from state to state and stuff like that. And

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Speaker 1: we'll get into those specifics too, but let's take that

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Speaker 1: break and we'll get into the basics of the bar

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Speaker 1: right after this.

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Speaker 2: So, Chuck, it turns out there's fifty six jurisdiction in

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Speaker 2: the United Statesty, I didn't fifty states, plus some territories,

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Speaker 2: you got some overseas possessions, you got you know what else.

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Speaker 2: So there's fifty six and each jurisdiction has its own

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Speaker 2: like highest agency that basically says these are the standards

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Speaker 2: to become a lawyer in the state. And again a

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Speaker 2: lot of them just said you have to pass the

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Speaker 2: uniform bar exam. That's the standard, but they also can

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Speaker 2: kind of mess with it here there, and it's up

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Speaker 2: to this agency that's associated with the highest court in

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Speaker 2: the state, usually the state Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And most jurisdictions, if you just to take

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Speaker 1: the bar exam, you have to have graduated from an

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Speaker 1: accredited law school from the American Bar Association, which usually

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Speaker 1: means a three year program. Some states, though, are like, hey,

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Speaker 1: if you didn't go to an accredited school, that's fine,

346
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Speaker 1: We'll still let you take the bar. If you are

347
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 1: in Washington State, Virginia, Vermont, or California, they allow a

348
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,639
Speaker 1: legal apprentice ship to swap out law school, which I

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Speaker 1: think is super kind of cool. Yeah, and Maine in

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00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 1: New York let you about like a year or two

351
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Speaker 1: about law school for an apprenticeship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, which is pretty neat. It's old schools

353
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,600
Speaker 2: to throw that kind of thing. Yeah, if you want

354
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Speaker 2: to take the bar exam, most of the time it's

355
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,720
Speaker 2: given in February and July. Those are your two options.

356
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Speaker 2: And then you're gonna pay some money for it. And

357
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 2: there's a lot of ways you're gonna pay money for it.

358
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Speaker 2: Just to register to take it the bar exam itself.

359
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 2: It can be a few hundred dollars. It can be

360
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,960
Speaker 2: more than one thousand dollars, depending on your state and

361
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,679
Speaker 2: how greedy they are. Yeah, if you want to use

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Speaker 2: a laptop, you want to type out your briefs and

363
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,640
Speaker 2: your memos and your essays rather than write them out

364
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 2: because you get hand cramps like the old lawyers used to. Yeah,

365
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 2: you're gonna have to pay a fee for that. And

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Speaker 2: the reason why is because there is no chance you

367
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,639
Speaker 2: are going to be allowed to bring your own laptop

368
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,440
Speaker 2: because they keep the the place so tight and are

369
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 2: so hawkish about preventing cheating that they actually provide tampons

370
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 2: to people who need them because you're not allowed to

371
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Speaker 2: bring in your own tampon.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Really, yeah, that's.

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Speaker 2: Happened, And apparently it's not just an isolated thing that

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00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 2: they have a bowl of tampons. Wow, you grab one

375
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,120
Speaker 2: if you need it, and you hope that they don't

376
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,360
Speaker 2: run out. If you really need it. So yeah, it's

377
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 2: it's like, there's no way you're bringing your own laptop in.

378
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, or tampon exactly. So wow, I never knew that.

379
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Speaker 1: That's a nice little tidbit.

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00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 2: Thanks. I thought that was pretty great too.

381
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 1: So, uh, you got to have money to register, Like

382
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 1: you said, you have to have money to you know

383
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,159
Speaker 1: a lot of times people take off work for several months,

384
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: So you have to have a life that can do that,

385
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 1: you know, which indicates a certain amount of at least

386
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 1: either privilege or maybe hard work in saving if that's

387
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 1: how you did it, which is great. And then almost assuredly,

388
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 1: you have paid several thousand dollars, maybe as much as

389
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 1: six thousand dollars to take preparatory courses. About sixty percent

390
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 1: of the market share in the United States is a

391
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 1: company called barri Barbary can be up to six thousand,

392
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 1: maybe as low as eighteen hundred bucks, and they have

393
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 1: been around since the nineteen fifties. And I was like,

394
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: what does Barbarie stand for? And I had a weirdly

395
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: hard time finding out what it stood for until I

396
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 1: sadly Wikipedia just turned it up. I should have gone

397
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 1: to the most obvious place, but I think when they

398
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 1: merged in twenty twenty one or no, no, no, they merged

399
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: in the seventies, I think, And it was just the

400
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 1: names of two companies. I think Bay Area Review was

401
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 1: bar and the Bar Review Inc. Was Bri and so

402
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: they just squashed those together. Kind of a boring story.

403
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,879
Speaker 2: I had seen that it was a merger of Barbizon

404
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: Modeling School Oh and Bree, meaning the makers of Bree

405
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 2: cheese around the world.

406
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a that's a mashup I could enjoy.

407
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: Right, And the six thousand dollars one that you can

408
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 2: pay for like the premium test prep. They actually have

409
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 2: somebody to take the test for you, and they even

410
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 2: provide the person with a wig that matches your hair

411
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 2: so it looks a lot like you too.

412
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 1: I did see, though, they have a guarantee if you

413
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: do not if you pay that money to them and

414
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: you don't pass the bar, you I think, you get

415
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: to take the course again for free, one more time.

416
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: If you're taking the exam again.

417
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: Okay, nice.

418
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,199
Speaker 1: You don't get your money back, but you get to

419
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: retake the course at no charge. No.

420
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 2: Barbizon Modeling has long had a model you don't get

421
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 2: your money.

422
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: Back right, Yeah, exactly.

423
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: So let's break down the UBE the uniform Bar examination,

424
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: which is the culmination of decades of the National Conference

425
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 2: of Bar Examiners, hard work, sweat, blood, tears, joy pain. Yeah,

426
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 2: and again it's you can break it down in the

427
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 2: three parts that kind of came along separately. The first

428
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 2: remember was that multiple choice tests, the multi state bar examination. Yeah,

429
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 2: there's two hundred multiple choice questions. I've seen one hundred

430
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: and seventy five. I guess it depends on I don't

431
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 2: know your jurisdiction and how much how valuable they find

432
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: twenty five questions.

433
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe, but it.

434
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: Covers seven different areas of the law.

435
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: You want to take them, sure, simple procedure, contracts of course,

436
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: nice towrts, oh, constitutional law, criminal law, that sexiest law,

437
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: careful criminal on procedure, that is evidence which is its

438
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: own category, and real property kuching. And that is fifty

439
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 1: percent of the UB score. Then the other two are

440
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: the multi state essay once again, which is thirty percent,

441
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: and then the two multi state performance tasks and that

442
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: is twenty percent.

443
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're like, okay, I could take that, no problem.

444
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 2: Sure you might be able to take it. You probably

445
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: wouldn't pass, and you'd give up twelve hours plus of

446
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 2: your life, twelve hours just of the test. It's spread

447
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 2: out over three days technically, but the UBE takes up

448
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: two of those days, twelve hours divided by two days

449
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 2: divided by four sessions. So three in the morning, three

450
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: in the afternoon, go to your hotel room, can't sleep,

451
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: toss and turn. Come back the next morning, three in

452
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 2: the morning, three in the afternoon.

453
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh well we should mention too. That's another reason

454
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: you might be paying some extra money if you don't

455
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 1: live near a testing site, like travel and room and

456
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: board and all that stuff. Good point and scotch at

457
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: the end of the day.

458
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 2: Of course, that's right.

459
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: It's graded on a four hundred point scale. Depends on

460
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: the state on what they consider passing, generally to sixty

461
00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: to two seventy. I said, state of course, jurisdiction. And

462
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 1: then apparently it's like, it's not like acing the bar

463
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: gets you anything more than passing the bar. You pass it,

464
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 1: and that's great. But I have some inside info from

465
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: attorney friends, which i'll kind of dabble in here and there,

466
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: but I think it's sort of untoward to you don't

467
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 1: go in and be like, oh, it's the bar. Yeah.

468
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 2: I saw a Reddit post where somebody posted like I

469
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: got a score of three thirty, and I mean, is

470
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: that high. I don't mean to make anybody who's got

471
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: lower than that feel bad, but I'm just curious, like

472
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 2: what do you guys think? And it was like you

473
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 2: discussed us like that is just sad. So yeah, it's

474
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: not really cool to flex on people over your.

475
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: Pass bar score. And you pass it, all that matters.

476
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: That's right. And then if you do pass, there's always

477
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 2: a gaggle of attorneys, usually quite experienced, seasoned attorneys who

478
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 2: just are waiting for you to finish, and when you finish,

479
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: they embrace you, and that's how you know that you've

480
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: passed the bar exam.

481
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: We did mention that those UB scores are portable. You

482
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: can It's not like the old days when you had

483
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: to pass that state's bar, you know. I think that's

484
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,239
Speaker 1: how it used to be kind of across the board, right.

485
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: They're transferable for two to five years after taking the exam.

486
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: It depends on the jurisdiction, of course, and then if

487
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: they if you're in a jurisdiction that doesn't utilize that

488
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: UB test. Most of them still have the NB as

489
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 1: a big part of their exam, usually with their own

490
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: specific like state laws stuff if they do that. And

491
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: there's usually also a third day, which you were talking

492
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: about earlier, that third test, which is like a sixty

493
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: question ethics test.

494
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: Right, it's called the Multi State Professional Responsibility Examination the

495
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 2: MPRE yes, and they ask you questions. It scored separately,

496
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 2: but they have questions like, you know, Attorney Lionel Hutts

497
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 2: brought in a bag of pot to one of his

498
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: one of his clients into prison. Is Attorney huts guilty

499
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: of loving too much?

500
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: Right? Was that a real Simpsons thing?

501
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: No?

502
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: Oh okay, because I could see that.

503
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: They only really talked about pot, like on a couple

504
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: of really great episodes. But you know, no, that wasn't

505
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 2: their bag normally, that wasn't their bagot.

506
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: No, yeah, that wasn't their sack.

507
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: Don't use that word.

508
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, sack's kind of gross, isn't it moist? Oh boy?

509
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: What was the other one?

510
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 2: Moist? Sacugh or pussy? Go look that up in the transcript.

511
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: Don't do it. Let's talk about pass rates because it

512
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: really obviously depends on the state. They can vary pretty wildly. Actually,

513
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: from looking at some of these stats, I think for

514
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: first timers from July of this year's testing twenty twenty

515
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: five first time or pass rates there was a range

516
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: like from sixty six percent in Connecticut to almost ninety

517
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: percent in Utah. So go Utah. If you look at

518
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: overall rates, not necessarily just first timers twenty twenty five,

519
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: only fifty four percent in the state of Alabama, once

520
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: again compared to eighty six in Utah. So I don't

521
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: know what's in the water out there in Utah, but

522
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: those attorneys are sipping it up.

523
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: Oh, it's widely considered a really easy state to pass

524
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: the bar.

525
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: Oh is it really?

526
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: Yeah?

527
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: Oh? Interesting?

528
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: Okay, some very hard places to take the bar around

529
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: the world, actually that I saw Nigeria, Singapore, Korea, Japan, Ontario, Canada, Canada, Okay,

530
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: New York State all like New York States. Bar exam

531
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: is so difficult. It's like as hard as the entire

532
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: nations of Singapore's so there are. It definitely varies by

533
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: jurisdiction and by country just how hard it can be.

534
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: Wow, that's interesting. I do know that of the twenty

535
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: twenty two graduates this is just another sort of stat

536
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: for you. Over ninety percent graduates from accredited schools passed

537
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: within a couple of years. But there's from what I see,

538
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: there's really no shame for it to take a cracker

539
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: two to pass the bar. I don't think. I don't

540
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: know if it's something you're gonna like run around the

541
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: office telling people on your first day, but I don't

542
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: think it's like a mark of shame. There have been

543
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: plenty of very successful attorneys, very famous attorneys that didn't

544
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: pass the bar on the first go, including Michelle Obama

545
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: and Hillary Clinton and all the degens I think JFK Yeah,

546
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: a bunch of d ims. JFK. Junior, I think took

547
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: two or three times to pass, and old Kim Kardashian

548
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: took a time or two.

549
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think three, three. And there's actually limits on

550
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: how many times you can take it, depending on your state,

551
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: your jurisdiction, your territory.

552
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: Oh well, they just say sorry once. It sounds like

553
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: you should try another line of work.

554
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: There are some places that say that, I don't know

555
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: if they actually say that. The gaggle of attorneys tell

556
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: you that when you fail the sixth time, But there

557
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: are other places that have discretionary rules where after you

558
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: reach a certain number, like say, I think six is

559
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: the highest I've seen, you can apply to take it again.

560
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: You can basically go to the state bar and be

561
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: like please, yeah, I want to be a lawyer so bad.

562
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: I'm just really terrible at this.

563
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it is a test, and some people

564
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: aren't great test takers. We'll kind of talk about that

565
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: in a little bit. But also I imagine there's plenty

566
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: of things you can do with the law degree if

567
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: you haven't passed the bar.

568
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. I mean it's like you see somebody referred

569
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: to like, oh this is a lawyer or something, but

570
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: they have like they're in some field has nothing to

571
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 2: do with law. Yeah, you're just like they very frequently

572
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: are advisors, like just they know how how far you

573
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: can bend the law. Okay, A lot of stuff you

574
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: can do with it.

575
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, you always teach. I imagine, Oh.

576
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's too. I have a little cute little addition

577
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: and dundum to this part.

578
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: Let's go.

579
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: The youngest person ever to pass the bar is Sophia Park.

580
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: She passed the bar in twenty twenty four at age

581
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: seventeen seventeen years eight months.

582
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: And was that after law school even.

583
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, she started law school at thirteen.

584
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: Uh, she's one of those.

585
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: So she beat the previous record by three months. The

586
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 2: previous record had been set at age I guess eighteen

587
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: years in one month by her brother Peter. Isn't that

588
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: the nuts? It's the smart family, it is they really

589
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: wanted to be lawyers.

590
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, or you know, are they practicing law or are

591
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: they just like I just wanted to show off.

592
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: Oh I believe they're both practicing law. Yeah, I guess, so, well,

593
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: should we take another break, Chuck? I guess we should.

594
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: Well, the one more little tidbit here at the end.

595
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: You know, we said that at a bar exam is

596
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: basically to say, hey, you can practice law. The one

597
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: other thing that it does is it helps determine what

598
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: schools can teach it because the ABA requires that law schools,

599
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: if you want to be an accredited law accredited law school,

600
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: a certain percentage of your graduates have to pass the

601
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: bar within two years, otherwise your accreditation goes away.

602
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw seventy five percent of your graduates have

603
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: to pass.

604
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 1: All right, or they're like sorry, I guess you're not

605
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: teaching well enough exactly.

606
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: I wanted my ti bit to be last, so I'm

607
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: just going to repeat it now. Okay, I had on

608
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: second thought. We'll just go to break. How about that?

609
00:32:37,640 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: All right, we'll be right back. All right, So we're

610
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: back with more critiques and problems on the bar, because

611
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: if you start to do a little digging, it turns

612
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: out there's been a lot of a lot of that

613
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: over the years for a lot of different reasons. You know,

614
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: we've mentioned some of the stuff while it was developing, basically,

615
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, banning people of color from even taking the

616
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: test for a long time. But black and Hispanic Americans

617
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: are still very underrepresented in the field of law. And

618
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: you know that's a problem because when you're a practicing attorney,

619
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: like a lot of opinion. That's why they call them opinions,

620
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: and judgment goes into it. And sure it's based on precedent,

621
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: but your perspective is important, and having diverse perspectives is

622
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: also important.

623
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, for sure, it's a white male profession. Essentially,

624
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: statistically speaking, that is far and away the largest population

625
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 2: represented in the legal profession in the United States, and

626
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: there's statistics and figures that kind of show the disparity. Here.

627
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: There's some data from twenty twenty one from the American

628
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: Bar Association that showed that white law school graduates passed

629
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 2: on their first try at the bar exam at a

630
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: rate twenty four percent higher than black students, thirteen percent

631
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: higher than Hispanic students, and fifteen percent higher than Native Americans.

632
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: So those are really substantial disparities in passing the bar

633
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 2: the first time, and so being in the hot seat,

634
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: the National Conference of Bar Examiners is like, hey, hey, hey,

635
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 2: everybody mellow out here. This is this is this track

636
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: with other scoring of racial disparities, like law school grades,

637
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: l sac grades, Like this is in line with them.

638
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 2: Just leave the bar exam alone. And by the way,

639
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 2: their interpretation is that this is an example of long

640
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 2: standing systemic racial disparities in the American education system, right

641
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 2: that start way back long before the somebody gets to

642
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: law school and goes to take the bar, and that

643
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: the bar exam is just showing us, it's just reflecting

644
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: this problem elsewhere. So again, stop looking at the bar

645
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 2: is essentially what the NCBE says.

646
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: It also kind of sounds like we're just a part

647
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: of the grand history of systemic discrimination throughout our country.

648
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 2: Well, that's a critique of them. Two people are like,

649
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: that's your answer, Like, yeah, we're just perpetuating an already

650
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 2: existing racial disparity. Like that's essentially what they're saying in

651
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: that argument.

652
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's definitely a strange argument. Other people

653
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: say that, you know, just part of that disparity is,

654
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: you know, the cost associated with law school and to

655
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: be a successful candidate, and like we said, the privilege

656
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: that it takes to maybe be able to pay for

657
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: that and then take off month's work and pay for

658
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: the very best preparatory courses. You know, that's it's just

659
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: sort of all in the big soup of privilege, you know, right.

660
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: I saw that black and Hispanic students who take the

661
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: bar examer of fifty percent likely or to work during

662
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: their bar prep period then a white student, Like it's

663
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: just logistically speaking, racially speaking, it's just much likelier that

664
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: a white test taker is going to be able to

665
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: not work and just dedicate their time to prepping for

666
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: the bar. And I mean that alone explains a lot

667
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 2: of it, because the bar exam is essentially like it's

668
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 2: a standardized test that where you memorize essentially year one

669
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: law school stuff.

670
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, that's one of the other critiques is

671
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: that you know, it's a memorization test, and there have

672
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: been plenty of studies that show that it doesn't necessarily

673
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: isn't a marker towards your future performance as an attorney

674
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: or you're like, you're how successful you may be. There

675
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: was a study in twenty twenty four from Nevada that

676
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: compared scores on the MB and other components of their

677
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: test of I think a little more than five hundred

678
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: new attorneys and how they were basically rated how affected

679
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: they were by their peers and their supervisors and judges.

680
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: And they did find a small positive relationship between some

681
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: of the ratings some parts of the bar, but at

682
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: the end of the day, overall they said it was

683
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: minimally predictive of career success and negligibly related. The Nevada

684
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: Performance Test was negligibly related to success.

685
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, those low correlations were as low as one to

686
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 2: four percent. Yeah, I think four percent was the highest

687
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: as far as the actual whole bar exam. Relating to

688
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: these ratings of how effective these lawyers were by their peers,

689
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: they said, we can only account for that with twelve

690
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: percent of the Bar exam. The other the rest of

691
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: the distinctions or the differences in effectiveness, has nothing to

692
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 2: do with their score on the Bar exam. And so

693
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 2: people say like, well, what the heck is the bar

694
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: exam doing? And again the National Conference of Bar Examiners

695
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: are like, we're testing for lawyer competents to protect the

696
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: public dummy. And people say, well, how are you testing

697
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 2: for legal competence? Like what is legal competence? And this

698
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 2: is where the National Conference of Board Examiners like pull

699
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: their shirt away from their necks so you can see

700
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: like some sweat breaking out on their forehead because they've

701
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,479
Speaker 2: never given a definition of competence. And if you don't

702
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 2: have a definition of competence, how can you in a

703
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 2: standardized way test people for whether they meet that definition

704
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 2: or not. So people say, like, the Bar exam under

705
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: that that description is by definition invalid, is not It's

706
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: not a valid test, meaning that it doesn't test the

707
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 2: thing it purports to test, because we just have no

708
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: idea what it is testing.

709
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: You know what you just sounded like what an attorney

710
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: sounds like? You just dropped the mic and court and

711
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: then sat down and I was to your just sat

712
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: down on your left and I put my hand on

713
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: your shoulder and was like, oh yeah, I'm man got them.

714
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 1: There's also been a lot of just sort of disasters

715
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: in recent years, very public ones in terms of the bar.

716
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: During COVID, they offered remote exams and it was just

717
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: sort of a joke in a lot of cases. There

718
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: were a lot of computer problems, like programs crashing, They

719
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: had facial recognition issues, and that sometimes they failed to

720
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: identify dark skin test takers. So that's that's bad right

721
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: off the bat. You also, again, you know, it was remote,

722
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: so you had to keep your eyes on the screen

723
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: at all times or they would think you're cheating if

724
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: you're looking around or looking into your lap or something.

725
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: So people were like literally urinating themselves in their seat

726
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: because they couldn't move. And one woman went into labor

727
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: and went through the test and gave birth and then

728
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 1: came home and finished the second day.

729
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to know how tough Loyola University

730
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 2: law students are, there, you go.

731
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: What about California with the chet GPT questions?

732
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: This one it's kind of lost schadenfreud around it, but

733
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: California said, nuts to the UBE, we can do a

734
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: better program ourselves and save money. So they designed their

735
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 2: own bar exam, like just completely eschewed the uniform bar

736
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: examination right, and it just the rollout was horrible. There

737
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: were people who were taking the test. They would get

738
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: error messages, the program would crash during the test. It

739
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: wouldn't save their essays. Can you imagine finishing an essay

740
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: you can save it and they're like nope, sorry, do

741
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 2: it again.

742
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: That's every student's nightmare.

743
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and remember this is time, Like you have three

744
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: hours per segment, right, Like, if you don't finish in time, sorry,

745
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: like you have to stop. So that's a huge part

746
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 2: of it. And then also, like you said, chat GPT,

747
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: it turned out was involved because some students were like, there,

748
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: like are misspellings and typos in some of these multiple

749
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: choice questions. In the California State Bar said wait.

750
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 1: What Yeah, it turns out that some of those questions

751
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 1: were chat beat GPT written by chat GPT. They weren't

752
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: even reviewed by a lawyer or a copy edited by

753
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: the state agency that oversaw the test. Because you know,

754
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: I don't know money, I guess.

755
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 2: And this was another case of lawyers suing lawyers and

756
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 2: lawyers suing their state bar and all that, and it

757
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: like California has just lost so much money on it.

758
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: Remember this is a money saving thing too, So again

759
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 2: there's like a little bit shoden Freud it too.

760
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. And there was one incident in New York where

761
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: someone went into cardiac arrest while taking the test. That

762
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: was this year in the July test, and you know,

763
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: people are like, you know, we should help here, right,

764
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 1: and the test proctors were like no, everyone be quiet,

765
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: and like, you know, just keep taking your test and

766
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: we'll deal with this in the next lunch break.

767
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they had to keep taking their tests while

768
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 2: the paramedics were saving this this person's life like next

769
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 2: to them. Essentially, that was what they were forced to do.

770
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 2: That's how I don't know, you choose remember where they

771
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: are about assigning these tests or carrying out these tests.

772
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: I was working at TV commercial one time as a

773
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: PA years ago out in the desert and in California,

774
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: and a crew member had a cardiac arrest and the

775
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: director told them to move a big fake rock in

776
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: front of and they were tending to the guy, but

777
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: they were like, we need to keep shooting, Like go

778
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: move that big fake rock in front of the paramedics

779
00:42:58,480 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: so we can keep shooting.

780
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 2: I guess it's better than the director being like, take

781
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: that fake rock and finish them off with it. Yeah, yeah,

782
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 2: and then drag them out of the way.

783
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: One thing I wondered, because I always kind of wonder like,

784
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: how would we do if we took the sat now,

785
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: like you know, at the stage in life or something.

786
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: I wondered about, like a really experienced attorney years later

787
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 1: if they took the bar again, and Lyvia dug into

788
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: that and found a study from twenty twenty one sixteen

789
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: like successful experience practicing attorneys from Oklahoma retook the bar

790
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: essentially with no prep. It was just like, you know,

791
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: their prep was their career on the theory that hey,

792
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: it's if it's measuring ability, then this should bear out

793
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 1: in the grades. And none of them passed. They got

794
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: scores ranging from twenty six to fifty two percent, so

795
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: nobody would have passed that bar, and the lawyers who

796
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: had been practicing the longest did the worst out of

797
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: all of them.

798
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: And then one general criticism of the bar exam two

799
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 2: in a day to everything else we've just talked about,

800
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 2: is that it doesn't in any real way kind of

801
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 2: jibe with what these lawyers are going to do in

802
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: the legal profession. Right, it's general questions about law generally

803
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: in the United States. Again, it's essentially the stuff you

804
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: learn in your first year at law school, because the

805
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: next two years you start to get into your specialization

806
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 2: and it's a lot of memory and memorization and a

807
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 2: lot of lawyering. After you graduate and go through the

808
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: bar and become an attorney is open book research to

809
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: figure out where law applies exactly. The bar exam is

810
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: closed book, rapid fire testing. So they're like, this is

811
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 2: not like even putting away everything else, all the other arguments.

812
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 2: At its base, it's kind of a flawed test to

813
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: start with.

814
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And because of that, there are a

815
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: lot of jurisdictions that have long had workarounds in alternatives,

816
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: and there are changes on the horizon for the bar itself.

817
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: Wisconsin it's the only state, I guess, only jurisdiction that

818
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: never stopped saying, hey, you went to law school and

819
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: you can practice law in the state. You don't have

820
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: to take the bar here, which is pretty cool. I

821
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: think you have to graduate from one of the states

822
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: to law schools there and they call it diploma privilege.

823
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: I think in the past couple of decades New Hampshire

824
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: has followed suit a little bit. And if you graduate

825
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: with honors from University of New Hampshire Law School and

826
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: you participate in court simulations and have practical experience, then

827
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: you can be admitted to practice law without the bar.

828
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. And we had said earlier that the law school

829
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 2: was originally created as an alternative to apprenticeship. Some states

830
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 2: have gone the other way now where the apprenticeships are

831
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: alternatives to law school. Like it's a path like that.

832
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: Bar I like it too. Vermont and Virginia they allow

833
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: apprenticeships instead of actually instead of the bar exams themselves.

834
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 2: Oregon offers apprenticeships where if you're a law school graduate,

835
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: you can become a lawyer without the bar exam. If

836
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,479
Speaker 2: you apprentice for I think six hundred and seventy five

837
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: hours over four weeks in supervised work, you will basically

838
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 2: become a lawyer after.

839
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: That four weeks, four months, no, four years.

840
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 2: No, I was joking. There's only six hundred and seventy

841
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: five hours in four weeks.

842
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: So Oh, okay, we're.

843
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 2: Doing twenty four hours a day for a month as

844
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 2: an apprentice.

845
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: Which seems I'll assume your math checks out.

846
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: It does. I even used a calculator.

847
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,959
Speaker 1: Oh great. I think Washington State has a plan coming

848
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six, so more states are kind of

849
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 1: getting on board with this. California last year actually rejected

850
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 1: a proposal to become more like Oregon with those apprenticeship hours,

851
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 1: even though the State Bar of California's Board of Trustee said,

852
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: we think this is a good idea, right, the State

853
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: Supreme Court said no, no, no, no. But coming around

854
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: the corner, now we have the next gen bar exam, right.

855
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, the NCB is like everybody settled out, So starting

856
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, they're like, we're going to change this

857
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: a little bit. The test's going to be shorter, we're

858
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 2: going to make it so it's possible to take it

859
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 2: remotely if need be. And then it's it's just going

860
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: to be a little different where I think it's a

861
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: little more sa heavy than the original test. But they're

862
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 2: also carving out some stuff that they're not going to

863
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: test on, like family law and that kind of thing.

864
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 2: So it's a little leaner, meaner kind of bar exam

865
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 2: that they're coming up with. All Right, two things that

866
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 2: I saw that are worth mentioning real quick. If you

867
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: do away with the bar exam. There's a couple of

868
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: benefits to that. One is that it puts the onus

869
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: on law schools themselves to graduate competent lawyers. Right now,

870
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: there are some law schools that are considered diploma mills

871
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: because as long as seventy five percent of your graduating's past

872
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: the bar within two years, like, you stay accredited and

873
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 2: you can make a lot of money off that other

874
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 2: twenty five percent. That's one thing that would happen. Another

875
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 2: one is that legal fees would probably come down because

876
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 2: one of the functions of gatekeeping that the bar exam

877
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: does is it artificially keeps the supply of lawyers low,

878
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 2: which artificially inflates the fees associated with lawyers too.

879
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: Ah, pretty think about that. Yeah, Yeah. I spoke to

880
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: my friend. I think I know a few attorneys here

881
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 1: and there, but only like one good friend who's a

882
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: lawyer who is electing to remain anonymous in this case.

883
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: But I did text him kind of about all this,

884
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 1: and he said I would say it's only useful and

885
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: that it shows how you can collect and synthesize a

886
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: lot of information under time pressure. But that's not really

887
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: much different than most standardized tests. But as far as

888
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 1: being an indicator of how you'll be as a practitioner,

889
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: yet not so much. He says, for example, the bar

890
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: will test you to some extent on the rules of

891
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: civil procedure, but passing the bar doesn't mean you can

892
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: walk into a deposition the day after you pass and

893
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: know how to do that. As someone who's taken hundreds

894
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: of depositions, you learn by watching, listening to more experience

895
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: attorneys do it, and then by trial and error, no

896
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: pun intended, doing it yourself. He is in favor of

897
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: the apprenticeships. He said it's probably a lot more helpful

898
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: as long as your mentor, you know, knew what they

899
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 1: were doing, and then said one thing he would like

900
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: to see change is, like, I think more emphasis on writing.

901
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: He said, I see so many briefs written by someone

902
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: who allegedly passed the bar. They're just horrible. He said

903
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: that's probably just a criticism of the legal education more

904
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: than the bar, and then he said he wanted to

905
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: remain anonymous, and he said, I know it sounds silly

906
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: or overly cautious when there are Scotis justices who can

907
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: accept luxury vacations with impunity. But I'm supposed to be

908
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 1: impartial here, so writing on the bar might not a

909
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: good look.

910
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: I think that's smart. Yeah, you got anything else?

911
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: I got nothing else.

912
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for tapping your anonymous friend. That was good info. Sure,

913
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: if you wanted to learn more about the bar exam,

914
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: could take the bar exam and in the meantime it's

915
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 2: time for listener mail.

916
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 1: It'd be kind of fun I mean, if it was free,

917
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: I would take the bar exam just to like, with

918
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: zero knowledge of anything, just to see like how poorly

919
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: I would do.

920
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would too. I'd be right next to you,

921
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 2: peeing in my seat and going into labor and having

922
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 2: a heart attack.

923
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be funny?

924
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: Though?

925
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: If we got like I don't know, even like a

926
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: twenty percent or something.

927
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 2: Or if we passed and we just automatically became lawyers.

928
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. All right, all right, this is

929
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: about the Sultan Sea. You called for a listener mail, right,

930
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 1: all right, Hey, guys, I was listening to the saltan

931
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: sea episode. In college, I took an ocean geography class

932
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: and learned about inland seas an inland sea, because remember

933
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 1: we sort of wondered difference between seas lakes. He said,

934
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: an inland sea can either be entirely landlocked or have

935
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: a single river connected to the ocean. Inland seas are

936
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 1: larger than lakes and have a salinity between a lake

937
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: and an ocean. So I think you've mentioned something about salinity.

938
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: They are typically remnants of larger oceans and have numerous islands.

939
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: But of course the scientific community names these things, and

940
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,760
Speaker 1: sometimes it can be rather confusing. The Caspian Sea, for example,

941
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: it is classified as a lake despite being known as

942
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: the largest inland sea in the world. And the Hudson

943
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 1: Bay is an island sea, which is Did you know.

944
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 2: That an island sea or inland sea?

945
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 1: He says island but probably meant inland.

946
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: Okay, I didn't, So I had no idea whether it's

947
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: an island sea or an inland sea. I had no idea.

948
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: Or Dylan's favorite sea is the Larapentine Sea or the

949
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: La Rapentine Sea. It's an ancient sea that split Australia

950
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: in half during the Cambrian explosion. Being a longtime listener

951
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: learning about new things is the best part of my commute. Guys,

952
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: that is from Dylan.

953
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Dylan, that was great info. I still

954
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 2: like your interpretation, Chuck, which I if I remember correctly,

955
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 2: you were saying that an inland a lake would be landlocked.

956
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I mean it sounds like there's no

957
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: true definition.

958
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, and let's keep going with yours. Great

959
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 2: nice try, Dylan. If you want to be like Dylan

960
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 2: and send us a great email, you can send it

961
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

962
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

963
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

964
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.