1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I have Tom Wolf 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: with me today. I think his story is very interesting 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: considering what we're seeing across the country right now. If 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: you're not aware, we have a pretty severe homeless epidemic 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: in a lot of our big cities. This is a 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: serious problem in many of the cities in the state 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: of Michigan. But I know we see it in California, 8 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: we see it in DC, we see it in New York. 9 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: I think we have about a quarter of a million 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: people in the United States right now that are in 11 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: this situation that are homeless. Tom Wolf is formerly homeless, 12 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: also a recovering heroin and fannyl addict from San Francisco. 13 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,639 Speaker 1: He's been clean and sober for seven years now. Your story, 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: Tom is pretty wild. I mean, I think it's the 15 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,639 Speaker 1: same story that so many people know. You had surgery, 16 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: right and then ended up as an addict. 17 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: That's right, and Tutor, it's great to be here. And 18 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: I don't mean to correct you right out of the gate, 19 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: but it's seven hundred and fifty thousand people experiencing homelessness. 20 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: Any seven and fifty thousand. 21 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a much bigger problem than people seem to understand. 22 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: And it's three quarters of a million. 23 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, three quarter of a million, and it's really manifested 24 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: out here on the West Coast. But yeah, I have 25 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 2: a pretty wild story of falling into addiction and then 26 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: homelessness and then finding recovery. I first of all want 27 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 2: to preface it by saying, I'm a regular guy. I'm 28 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 2: just a regular middle class guy, married with two kids, 29 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: living in a suburb of San Francisco. And back in 30 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 2: early twenty fifteen, when I was working for the City 31 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: and County of San Francisco, I had to have surgery 32 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: on my foot to repair an old injury where they 33 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 2: had to break my foot and reset it and put 34 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 2: two titanium screws in my foot to kind of stabilize it. 35 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:42,919 Speaker 2: And they sent me home with a thirty day supply 36 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 2: of oxycodone for the pain. And I didn't use those 37 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: pills as directed, so to speak, one pill every four 38 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: to six hours wasn't cutting it. So I started using 39 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: two pills. And I still remember the day where I 40 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: took three pills or thirty milligrams all at once, and 41 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 2: that's when I kind of crossed this threshold into the 42 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: I so to speak where all my problems melted away. 43 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: It wasn't just the pain, but any marital problems or 44 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: financial problems. I had small kids in the home. All 45 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: those stresses kind of went away for a few hours. 46 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: And I absolutely loved that feeling. I loved it. It 47 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 2: was like someone putting a warm blanket over you, where 48 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 2: you just felt kind of safe and happy. And that's 49 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 2: the hook. That's the hook with opioids. That's why so 50 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: many people fall prey to that addiction, is that they 51 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: want that feeling, and so over the next you know, 52 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: eighteen months, I continued to use. Obviously, when I couldn't 53 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 2: get more pills from my doctor, I went to the street. 54 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: I started purchasing pills on the street, and in twenty fifteen, 55 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: you could find a variety of different opioids on the 56 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: street in San Francisco. And my addiction increased or grew 57 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: until I was taking five hundred and sixty milligrams a day. 58 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: But I mean, how does that happen? I really, I 59 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: feel like this is the part that if you haven't 60 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: had this happen, you don't understand. Had you ever had 61 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: you ever taken any drug before, had you ever had 62 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: alcohol problems. Were there any other addiction problems in your past. 63 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: Well, not in my past, but in my family. So 64 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 2: alcoholism runs in my family. I have two siblings that 65 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: are in recovery from alcoholism, and my dad was a drinker. 66 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 2: So I think it's kind of genetic, like I had 67 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: the predisposition for addiction. It's just a mind manifested with 68 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: opioids instead of alcohol. And you know, the big thing 69 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: here is that when I couldn't get more pills from 70 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: my doctor, I was going into what they call withdrawal. 71 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: I was getting dope sick, right, I wanted more. I 72 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 2: was having anxiety. I was feeling the physical effects of 73 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: starting to run out of these days? 74 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: Did you know that? I mean, at that point, do 75 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: you go, man, I think I have a real serious problem. 76 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: I mean, what is that transition like? Because you go 77 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: from being like a pillar of society. Really people think 78 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: of you as this amazing man. You were. You had, 79 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: you have a wife, you have two kids, You work 80 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: for the city. You're doing great work for the city, 81 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: like you're doing God's work for the city, you know, 82 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: and you are suddenly in a situation where I assume 83 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: you had no idea that this you would have that predisposition. 84 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: Even when you see your family members have a problem 85 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: with alcohol, you don't immediately connect that if I have 86 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: a surgery, I'm in danger. So how I mean this 87 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: seems like it happened pretty fast for you to suddenly 88 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: have this complete personality change. 89 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the power of addiction, right, So it's 90 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 2: kind of like it's hard to explain. The only thing 91 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: I can tell you is that you know, there was 92 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 2: a moment where I admitted to myself that, you know what, 93 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: I'm just going to be addicted. I'm just I can 94 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 2: manage this. I can handle it. And I think that's 95 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: the other big trick in addiction for people is that 96 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 2: they think that they can manage their addiction. They think 97 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 2: that they can still function at a high level with 98 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: their addiction. They start nationalizing that it's okay if these 99 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: things fall by the wayside. It's okay. If I pay 100 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: that bill late, it's okay. If maybe I don't pay 101 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 2: my mortgage this month and use that money for drugs, 102 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: It's okay. If I missed that pickup of my kids 103 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: at school, or I'm late because I have to go 104 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: get my drugs first. You begin prioritizing those drugs over 105 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: everything else. 106 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: So I was reading your story and I read this 107 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: part where you were you explained I think this was 108 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. You were explaining this that you would 109 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: go out to this You would say you're going out 110 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: to the store and go to this terrible area and 111 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: go pick up drugs. And I was thinking to myself, Man, 112 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, if that happened in my house and suddenly 113 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: my husband's just gone, and I imagine it's not a 114 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: quick trip to go pick up drugs disappear. What is 115 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: happening at home? Are there tensions? Is your wife catching on? 116 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: Does she not know what is happening? 117 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: Yeah? Those are great questions, and the answer is, yeah, 118 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: she's catching on. But I'll also say that denial and 119 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: codependency are very powerful things for partners of people or 120 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 2: family members of people that are struggling with addiction. She 121 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: didn't want to believe it, right, She didn't want to 122 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: believe that her husband of twenty years and the father 123 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 2: of her kids was basically turning into a full blown 124 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: drug addict later on heroin addict and fentanyl addict. But 125 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: it just goes to show you that addiction itself does 126 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: not discriminate. It can get anybody rich, poor, black, white, 127 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. Addiction doesn't care. If you have that 128 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: predisposition or if there are circumstances in your life that 129 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: kind of leads you to self medicate, you can absolutely 130 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: become addicted and it will tear your life apart. 131 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: So in the first Trump administration, I will say I 132 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: also had surgery in twenty fifteen. Was yours in twenty fifteen? 133 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: Also, that's right. 134 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: So I had surgery in twenty fifteen. I had a 135 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: double messtectomy. Was I had breast cancer. So I had 136 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: the double mestectomy, and I came home with a massive 137 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: amount of drugs. I mean, I can not even tell you. 138 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: It was ridiculous. Never would have used them. I used 139 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: them for like three days, and then you have these 140 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: all of these medications that you may never use again, 141 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: or I do understand how you could get addicted to them, 142 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: because there were way more than I needed. I'll say 143 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: that for the pain that I had, it was a 144 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 1: three day event for me, and then I never needed 145 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: those again. I had to go back for a surgery 146 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. So this is well into the Trump administration. 147 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: And the amount of medication that it came home with 148 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: was a few extra strength advil you know, get you 149 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: get like the eight hundred milligram advil. It was a 150 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: striking difference. Do you think My understanding is that within 151 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: that time, those first few years of the first Trump administration, 152 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: there was a real push to say, we're going to 153 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: limit the amount of opioids that go home people after 154 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: surgeries like this. 155 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. So look, this entire crisis, the fentanyl crisis, everything 156 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 2: that we're talking about now, all the groundwork for that, 157 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: I hate to say it, but it's true, was laid 158 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: out by big Pharma, Okay, and the over prescription of 159 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 2: OxyContin back in the nineteen nineties. You had pain clinics, 160 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: you had doctors writing prescriptions for hundreds of pills. I 161 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 2: interviewed a guy that's been clean now for about nine 162 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: or ten years. He used to go to pain clinics 163 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: and he would get one hundred and eighty eighty milligram 164 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: oxy conton tablets just on a whim because his back hurt. 165 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: Like that's the kind of foundation that was laid where 166 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: twenty million people got addicted to opioids across the country, 167 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: especially in the Rust Belt in the nineteen eighties and nineties, 168 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: and it's kind of just progressed now because of course, 169 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 2: our government is a few years behind on actually addressing 170 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 2: the drug policies in this country. So yes, we restricted 171 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: those opioids, which is good, but at the same time, 172 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: the cartels were figuring out how to synthesize or make 173 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: synthetic opioids ie fensanyl, and then they started making it 174 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 2: in mass quantities and pumping it into this country to 175 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: a population that was already very vulnerable as a result, 176 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: the big pharma laying that kind of foundation for the 177 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: addiction and opioid crisis in our country, and now you're 178 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 2: kind of seeing it play out. Last year we had 179 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: nearly ninety thousand drug overdose tests in this country and 180 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 2: it just gives you contacts. In the year two thousand, 181 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 2: we only had seventeen thousand overdose tests in this country. 182 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: So whoa the arrival crazy. 183 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it has completely changed the game, and it requires 184 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 2: us to change our response. 185 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: Stick around. 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I mean, I 210 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: think that is it's very controversial, but it is sending 211 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: a very strong message to anybody who's trying to bring 212 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: deadly drugs into this country. 213 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: I have no issue because I'm sorry, I don't because look, 214 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: when I was on the street, I used to hold 215 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 2: drugs for the drug dealers out here. I was a 216 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: mule for them because they would pay me with heroin. 217 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 2: That's how I was able to support my addiction. So 218 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: I talked to these guys. I knew what they were. 219 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: They're basically that's actually an interesting point that you're making 220 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: that I think we don't think about because you go, 221 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, there's all these bad guys on the 222 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: streets selling drugs, but you get you were sucked into 223 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: being one of their lackeys because you're getting the product 224 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: and they get you addicted. And here's this upstanding citizen, 225 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: dad of two, great husband who in just a matter 226 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: of four years fell to this level. 227 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: Yep, that's right, and that again, that speaks to the 228 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: power of addiction, the desperation of addiction. I mean, I 229 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: was on the street, I had been cut off from everything. 230 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: My family was practicing what they call separation with love. 231 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 2: So you know, they love me, they want me to 232 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: do okay, but they're not going to come out and 233 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: help me and give me money on the street to 234 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 2: just buy drugs. So I had to figure out my hustle, 235 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 2: and I want to be clear. In San Francisco, as 236 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: an example, we have five hundred to one thousand organized 237 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: drug dealers operating in plain site, in broad daylight in 238 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: the city, okay, And it's been that way for at 239 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 2: least a decade, if not longer. And they're fueled by 240 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: the Sinaloa cartel, right. And so there's that whole network 241 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: of cartel drug dealers up and down the West coast 242 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: of the United States, from San Diego all the way 243 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: to Anchorage, Alaska, and over into Salt Lake City and Denver, ETCA. 244 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: Selling drugs that are killing our kids, that are just 245 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: destabilizing our large urban centers, our big cities. It's destabilizing them. 246 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 2: If you ever read Michael Schellenberger's book San Francisco, he 247 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: really laid that out very clear as part of his 248 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: argument as to why these cities are falling apart. It's 249 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: being fueled by drugs. It's being fueled by organized drug dealers. 250 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: So for Trump to crack down on that, I think 251 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: it's long overdue, and I know it makes a lot 252 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: of people uncomfortable. And I'm probably going to get some 253 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 2: heat because I'm out here in San Francisco, so I'm 254 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: going to get some heat for saying that. But you 255 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: know what, interdiction, reducing the supply of drugs is just 256 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 2: as important as reducing the demand for drugs. We need 257 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 2: to make it harder for people to get high and 258 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: easier for people to access treatment and get off of 259 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: those drugs. 260 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: So how there was a particular police officer I believe 261 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: that kept kind of giving you a push to get 262 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: off the streets. Your wife. He had talked to your wife, 263 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: and there was kind of an almost I mean, from 264 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: my perspective, this is like a god thing. He talks 265 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: to your wife. He has this connection to you in 266 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: a more personal way, and I thought it was interesting 267 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: the way he described it. He was like, you know, 268 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: there's not that many people once they're at this point, 269 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: who's got who have a wife? Who's still going? I 270 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: miss him? I can't and that he's gone. We love 271 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: him and really still searching for that person to return, 272 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: and that struck him. So I feel like he was 273 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: almost like a guardian angel for a while from the 274 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: story I read, But tell us a little bit about 275 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: that process of him following you and you getting out 276 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: of that situation. 277 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so. First of all, my wife is a saint, 278 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: and I'm going to spend the rest of my life 279 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: making amends to her, and I'm very very happy to 280 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: do that. And I'm happy to also say that I'm 281 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: reconciled with my wife and kids. And that couldn't have 282 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 2: happened without recovery, without finding our faith as a family 283 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: and making a decision to move forward together. What Officer 284 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: Rob Gilson did for me was above and beyond the 285 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: call of duty. So my wife had actually called the 286 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: tender Long Police station in tears in a panic to 287 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: file a missing person's report on me because I had 288 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: been gone for the home from the home for eleven days, 289 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: and he took that phone call. And it's interesting I 290 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: was arrested six times after that on the streets for 291 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: various crimes I was commit as a result of my addiction, 292 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: which I own all of them completely, and I paid 293 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: my debt I had to go to jail, I had 294 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: to be on probation, I had to do all those things. 295 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: But he arrested me four out of those six times. 296 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: And the last time he arrested me is I was 297 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: being booked into jail. He just looked at me and 298 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: he said, dude, you're skinny, you're dirty. I know you 299 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 2: have a wife and kids at home that love you. 300 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: You need to get yourself clean and you need to 301 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: get back to your family. And for whatever reason, that 302 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: last time that he said that to me, it really 303 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: hit home because then I realized the damage that I 304 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: had caused, not just to myself, but to my wife 305 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: and to my kids. And it gave me. It gave 306 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: me an opportunity to start thinking. And then I had 307 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: to go sit in jail and think about it for 308 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: another three months after that before I really decided that 309 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 2: I was going to give recovery an honest try. And 310 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: I give a lot of credit to the Salvation Army. 311 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: I have to, because they're the ones that took me 312 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: in and gave me a chance to go through their 313 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: rehab program that was a six month residential program that 314 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: was free. They didn't have to do that, but they 315 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: took me in and gave me a chance. I found 316 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 2: recovery and I found my faith, and that's a big 317 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: thing for many of us in recovery, that spiritual awakening happens, 318 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: and that kind of led me back to my wife 319 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: and my kids and eventual reconciliation. 320 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: You said that was free. I think that's one of 321 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: the biggest complaints that we hear about getting out of 322 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: this cycle of addictionists. How do you get to a rehab? 323 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: How do you afford it? I mean, I've had family 324 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: members who have invested tens of thousands of dollars in 325 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: rehab programs. 326 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: They're so expensive, Yep, they are, but there's also a 327 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: ton of free programs. It just depends on what you're 328 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 2: looking for. Yeah, you can go to the rehab in 329 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 2: Malibu and spend fifty grand if you want, Or you 330 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: can go to the Salvation Army, which is a little 331 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: bit harder core, full of accountability and structure and also 332 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: find your pathway back. And so look, if you're holmost 333 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: on the street living in a tent, trust me going 334 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: to an environment where you have to wake up at 335 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 2: six in the morning and shave and tucking your shirt 336 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 2: and go to church twice a week and follow some 337 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: twelve step recovery beats the hell out of sleeping in 338 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 2: a tent on the street. It just does. And so 339 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 2: we need to have multiple options available for people. Private 340 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: insurance companies need to do a lot better job of 341 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: paying for drug rehab. That's another topic, really, but we 342 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 2: should be doing what we can to make rehabs widely available, 343 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: treatment on demand, and make it as affordable as possible, 344 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: if not free altogether. Because we have forty million people 345 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: in this country struggling with drug addiction right now. Ten 346 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: percent of the population of our country is addicted to drugs. 347 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: So what do you think is the answer to homelessness? 348 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I know that you feel like you've successfully 349 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: beat this, and you know that that's not the case 350 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: for many people. In San Francisco. You have a serious 351 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: homelessness problem out there, And I would say you have 352 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: some of the highest budgets for homelessness in the country, 353 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: between San Francisco and Los Angeles, the budgets are in 354 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: the hundreds of millions, and yet the homeless problem continues 355 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: to get worse. So what do you say to politicians 356 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: about what they can do to get people off the street. 357 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 2: Well, another great question, and there's no one easy answer 358 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 2: to it, but I will say this that accountability is 359 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 2: one of the cornerstones of recovery. So Trump's executive Order 360 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: on homelessness was actually the correct approach. That is what 361 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 2: we have to do. We're at a point now where 362 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: we have in San Francisco, we have eight thousand homeless, 363 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: at least half of them are living unsheltered on the street. 364 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 2: Eighty to ninety percent of them have what they call 365 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: a co occurring disorder, which is either addiction and or 366 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: mental illness or both of them playing out at the 367 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: same time. And the biggest mistake that we've made in 368 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 2: our homeless response as a state and as a nation 369 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 2: is that we decided to first of all, call it 370 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: homeless us because that's a euphemism, and to downplay the 371 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 2: fact that there's a drug problem, that we have a 372 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: huge drug problem amongst the homeless in this country, and 373 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 2: we've downplayed it on purpose because we don't want to 374 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 2: stigmatize drug users. We don't want to stigmatize the homeless. 375 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: All that harm reduction stuff coming from the radical left. 376 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 2: That's a huge mistake. It's a terrible mistake because we're 377 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 2: misdiagnosing the problem. And to give you an example of that, 378 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: in La on skid Row, they just finished building a 379 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 2: couple of towers to house chronically homeless and supportive housing. 380 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 2: Each one of those units in that apartment building costs 381 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 2: the city six hundred thousand dollars per door. Okay, to 382 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: house about four hundred people altogether. Well, guess what on 383 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 2: skid Row and a fifty block radius, there's ten thousand 384 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,239 Speaker 2: homeless people. So are we how much is it going 385 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 2: to cost us to house all ten thousand of those 386 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: homeless people? And then on top of that, we don't 387 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: ask them to get off drugs. In fact, we tell 388 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: them it's okay, you can bring your drugs inside with you. 389 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: How do you Yeah, I guess that's that's the question 390 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 1: that I think so many of us have, And it's 391 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: kind of the question that we don't really ask because 392 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: I think that nobody understands the answer. The problem is 393 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: not that you don't have a house. Somehow you got there. 394 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: I mean, you were not actually someone that didn't have 395 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: a house. You had a home, You weren't homeless, you 396 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: weren't in your home because you were choosing addiction, was 397 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: choosing for you to be living out on the streets. 398 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: So how many people are in that situation? I guess 399 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: you're really right, we're calling it homelessness, But is it 400 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: when was your experience that the majority out there of 401 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: people were actually addicted. 402 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: Yes, So everybody that I knew on the street was 403 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 2: addicted to drugs. Everybody, and I'm not exaggerating anything. One 404 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 2: hundred percent of the people I knew on the street, old, young, white, black, 405 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 2: they were all addicted to drugs. Whether it was crack, cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin, whatever, 406 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: they were addicted, Okay, And I just want to be 407 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: very very clear about that. And so when you hear 408 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 2: all this data come out saying, oh, it's only forty 409 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: five percent or forty seven percent of the people that 410 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: are addicted. These are based on surveys that we've done. 411 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: And then you start asking about the surveys and it 412 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: turns out that they're self reported. So you're basically asking people, hey, man, 413 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 2: are you using drugs? When they would come up to 414 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 2: me on the street when I was homeless and they 415 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 2: would say, hey, I don't even want to stay homeless. 416 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 2: When I was on the street. They would say, hey, Tom, 417 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: are you okay? Are you struggling with drug use? Or 418 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 2: you need some help? And I'd be like, what are 419 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: you talking about. I'm just sitting here, mind in my business. 420 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 2: I'm fine. So are we really getting the truth from people? 421 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: Of course not, because when you're struggling with addiction, number one, 422 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 2: there's denial. Number two, there's fear, and number three, you 423 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 2: don't want to admit that you have a problem to 424 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: anyone because you still think that you have control over 425 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 2: your situation, even when it gets down to as little 426 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: as a piece of heroin in your hand. 427 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: I think that's the most shocking part about this for 428 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: someone who hasn't gone through this, And that's why I 429 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: am so grateful to you for sharing your story because 430 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: as I listened to this, how quickly it was that 431 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: this took hold of you and it was no longer 432 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: really a choice because that feeling of euphoria that you 433 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: talk about and wanting that back, I mean, that was 434 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: so powerful that it took you out of your home, 435 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: put you on the street. What was what was that experience? 436 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: Like? 437 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: Are you sleeping on street corners? 438 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 2: Like? 439 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: What does that look like? Explain? Give us a little 440 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: bit of a picture of what that is and who 441 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: you met and how that was. 442 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, excellent. Generally speaking, it was just very dark all 443 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 2: the time, even when it was the sun was shining 444 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: and it was warm, and everything was a very dark experience. 445 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 2: You're cold all the time, because more often than not, 446 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 2: I would sleep in the doorway kind of just kind 447 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: of crouched down in a doorway and I just had 448 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 2: a jacket and my jeans, and sleeping on the concrete 449 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: is very very cold, and so it just gets it 450 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: just gets to your bones and you feel cold on 451 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: the inside all the time. I you know, I would 452 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 2: eat maybe once a day. I knew where the soup 453 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: kitchen was. I could go get a meal if I 454 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 2: needed to. The rest of the time of my existence 455 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: on the street was spent trying to hustle to maintain 456 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: my drug addiction. And that's how the case was with 457 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 2: everybody I knew on the street and people I knew 458 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: people on the street in San Francisco that were from Michigan, Kentucky, Ohio, 459 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 2: Las Vegas. I knew a guy that used to be 460 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 2: a graphic designer in Las Vegas, making six figures in 461 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: the salary, but he got addicted to oxy cotone, and 462 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: then he became a heroin addict and now was living 463 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 2: on the streets of San Francisco. It crosses all barriers 464 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: addiction does. And it's amazing that the people you'll meet 465 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 2: out there. There's people out there that have master's degrees. 466 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: I knew a guy that was an officer in the 467 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: Navy at one point that had been a heroin addict 468 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 2: for twenty five years on the street, and so many 469 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 2: of them now are gone because illicit fentanyl came to 470 00:23:58,960 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: the street. 471 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: At a certain point, was it? I mean, you talked 472 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: about it at first being like this calming, warm blanket 473 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: took away all your troubles. Does it suddenly change, because 474 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: what I'm hearing is you're living in horrible conditions to 475 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: avoid that withdrawal because you know that's coming if you 476 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: don't keep it up. I mean, does that seem like 477 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: you're just kind of chasing the drug to stop the inevitable. 478 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: You clearly just hit the nail on the head. So 479 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: at a certain point, this is the last big trick 480 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 2: of addiction, is that it's no longer about getting high. 481 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 2: It's about staying well, not going into withdrawal. So you're 482 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: doing everything you can just to maintain and if you 483 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 2: get high, that's a bonus. And there's this huge fear 484 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 2: of those withdrawal symptoms because the withdrawals, the physical withdrawals 485 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 2: from fensanel are horrible. They're absolutely horrible. It's imagine having 486 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:57,239 Speaker 2: like the flu and a cold and anxiety and your 487 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: muscles are locking up. You're throwing up all the stuff 488 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 2: all at the same time, and it lasts for days 489 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 2: upon days upon days. It doesn't ever go away, and 490 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: you'll literally almost do anything to not fall into that 491 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 2: kind of trap, that feeling. So people cheat, they steal, 492 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 2: they'll lie, they'll rob their neighbors, they'll they'll sell themselves well, 493 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 2: do whatever they need to do to get drugs. That's 494 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: how powerful this addiction is. And so this is another 495 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 2: reason why we have to put such a focus on fentanyl, 496 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 2: because an addition to fentanyl killing everyone, I want to 497 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: just make this point really quick. The first time I 498 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: used that thirty milligrams and I felt that blanket over 499 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: my head. I never felt that feeling again until the 500 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: first time I tried fentanyl. That was the only drug 501 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: I ever used since then that actually made me feel 502 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: like the first time that I used and that's why 503 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: so many people love it. And then it traps you 504 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: in your addiction. FENTONYL metabolizes faster in your body, so 505 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 2: you have to use it every two hours, unlike heroin, 506 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: which was every sixty hours. Yeah. So you know, these 507 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: harm reduction people and the public health people are out 508 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 2: there saying, hey, you know we need to wait for 509 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: people to be ready here. You're never going to be 510 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: ready unless we intervene because you have to use fentanyl 511 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 2: every two hours in order to just stay well. 512 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: And that's I might sound incredibly naive here, but I 513 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: have always I guess this the public story and the 514 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: media story has worked a number on me because I 515 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 1: always felt like fentanyl was an accident if you got it, 516 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: but you were seeking out fentanyl. 517 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 2: Oh no, it's completely replaced heroin. In San Francisco. You 518 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: can't find heroin on the street of streets of San 519 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: Francisco or opioids of any kind. The only thing that 520 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 2: they have are fentanyl in powdered form, or fentanyl fake 521 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: pills that look like oxycodone that'll kill you quick, and 522 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: it's cheap. It's five dollars for a little baggy for 523 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: a tenth of a gram of fentanyl. Now on the 524 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 2: streets of San Francisco. Gosh, you go to Portland, Oregon, 525 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 2: the fentanyl pills are a dollar fifty a pill on 526 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 2: the street right now. So this is why it's so pervasive. 527 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 2: It's cheap to manufacture, easy to smuggle because dogs can't 528 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 2: smell it when it comes across the border, and then 529 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 2: the distribution is just become nationwide, like widespread, and it's 530 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: completely saturated our country and created an overdose calamity of 531 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: epic proportions. 532 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: So that is why when you see him saying we're 533 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: taking out these ships, you say, go for it, because 534 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: that's the drug that's being sold. I mean, I think 535 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: so many of us think that that's like, like I said, 536 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: you are accidentally getting that, but that's actually just the 537 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: cheap high quick stave off the withdrawal symptoms you've got this. 538 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, the cartels made a business decision 539 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: right to replace heroin, which takes time to produce because 540 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 2: you have to grow the opium poppies and then you 541 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: have to harvest them and make it into heroin with 542 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 2: something that you can take three precursor chemicals that you 543 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: mostly get from China, mix them together to make fencanyl 544 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 2: into a powder, and then you package it and you 545 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 2: ship it off. And you can do that twenty four 546 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 2: hours a day, seven days a week. You don't have 547 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 2: to wait for seasons and planting and all that stuff 548 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 2: to happen at harvesting. You can just mass produce this stuff. 549 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: And that's been their cash cow. And now you know 550 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: the cartels were already making billions before, they're making billions 551 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 2: more now. And that also speaks to we need to 552 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: start asking what's going on in our country that that 553 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: forty to ten percent of our population is using drugs? 554 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 2: Why is it this way here and not that way 555 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 2: pretty much everywhere else. 556 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask, is are we 557 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: the biggest market? 558 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 2: We are the biggest market. So it goes that US 559 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 2: is number one, and then it's Canada then, and then 560 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 2: fencanyl hasn't arrived in Europe yet, So while they have 561 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: a huge drug problem in the UK, there's no fencanel 562 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 2: there yet. It hasn't jumped the pond for whatever reason, 563 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 2: and it hasn't really hit Australia either, as an example, 564 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 2: where that also has historic we'd high drug usage rates. 565 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: It's really just the United States and Canada. North America 566 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: has been deeply afflicted with fensanyl, but interestingly enough, Mexico 567 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: doesn't have that same kind of problem. So we have 568 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: to start asking why that is. And nobody really has 569 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 2: a clear answer. It's socioeconomics is part of it, but 570 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: nobody really has a clear understanding of why we love 571 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: drugs so much in the United States. 572 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: I think it is definitely something that we think is 573 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: just sneaking into ei there's a drug market, and then 574 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,479 Speaker 1: that sneaking in. When I was running for office, we 575 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: went to our Oakland County Sheriff's office and they have 576 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: a crime lab there and I mean, honestly, I would 577 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: have seen this in someone's house and not known what 578 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: it was. It's this giant block that was it looked 579 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: like chalk and it was pressed into the shape of 580 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: a jeep logo. And I'll never forget this. And he said, 581 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: that's how they brand it, the different whoever is selling it. 582 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: They have these brands and use logos and they had 583 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: a jeep logo in there and I thought, I've no, 584 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: he said, that's drugs. I said, what do you mean? 585 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: He said, yeah, And there's a woman in there, and 586 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: she was taking it apart very carefully. She had a 587 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: hood over top of her that was, you know, vacuuming 588 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: up all the air. She's full almost as matt suit. 589 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: Was fentanyl. 590 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: Yep, that's right, and she has to wear that as 591 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: matt suit so she doesn't overdose herself. So in San Francisco, 592 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: our fentanyl is multicolored, and it is that chalk substance 593 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: that you're talking about, that powdered chalk substance, and they 594 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: color it. There's red fentanyl, blue, fentanyl, light blue, yellow, 595 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 2: and each one of them designates either a different strength 596 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: of the fentanyl or that it's mixed with something else, 597 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 2: like it's mixed with methamphetamine or mixed with benzo diazepines 598 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 2: like xanax to intensify the effect one way or the 599 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: other for people. And so it's like a buffet where people, 600 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 2: if you have the money, you can pretty much get 601 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: anything that you want. And the way the cartel dealers 602 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: view it here is that if you die, you die. 603 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 2: You made the decision to put that that drug in 604 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: your body. And what's even more frustrating is that the 605 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 2: police here are doing their job. They're arresting the drug dealers. 606 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 2: The DA, the DA in San Francisco. Now, our current 607 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 2: DA is doing her job, she's prosecuting drug dealers. But 608 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: we have a bunch of judges on our superior court 609 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 2: benches here that are former public defenders that believe that 610 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,959 Speaker 2: still have this ideology that the war on drugs failed. 611 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 2: So they just continue to release these dealers over and 612 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 2: over back to the street, which is why you know 613 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: the door has been left open for Trump to threaten 614 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: federal intervention in San Francisco. That's really the reason why 615 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: it's not about undocumented immigration. It's about organized drug dealers 616 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: on the street that have persisted for more than a 617 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 2: decade that are killing six hundred and fifty people in 618 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 2: our city every single year. 619 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 620 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: the Tutor Dixon Podcast. The crazy part about this, you 621 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: are talking about a few people having a lot of power, 622 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: and as I hear you saying, you're kind of like 623 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: a drug runner because you get them free, they are 624 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: just using their own clients to as employees without having 625 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: to pay them. I mean, it's insane. So if you 626 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: took the few bad guys off the street. Over time, 627 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: this would end. That's what we're hearing in Michigan. You 628 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: seem to believe that as well. 629 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: Oh eighty percent of the homeless drug problem in San 630 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: Francisco would literally go away if we removed all the 631 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: organized drug dealers from here. They're the ones that cause 632 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 2: the majority of the chaos. They all carry guns. There's 633 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: drug violence all the time, and we have to be 634 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: honest in San Francisco. Like, so, there's four thousand people 635 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 2: on the street using drugs, and then about and then 636 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: there's another several thousand that are actually housed in supportive 637 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: housing in San Francisco that come out of their house 638 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 2: in the day and hang out on the street with 639 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 2: the other homeless and use drugs. And then you have 640 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: another few thousand that are in housing themselves that we're 641 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: paying for with rent subsidies of the cost this city 642 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: four hundred and fifty million dollars a year to keep 643 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 2: them housed, and they're using drugs inside. And so now 644 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 2: we've created the scenario where seventy percent of all the 645 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: overdose tests in San Francisco happen at a fixed address. 646 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: So we've actually taken this problem, and we've also moved 647 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 2: it inside. It's not even like we took it off 648 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 2: the street and moved it inside. We have it on 649 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 2: the street and then we also have it inside at 650 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: the same time. And it's just a big mess. 651 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: And they know who they are, but they're still out there. 652 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Look, every drug dealer in San Francisco has been arrested. 653 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: In fact, last year SFPD arrested all the drug dealers 654 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 2: in San Francisco. Nine hundred felony drug dealing arrests were 655 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 2: made in San Francisco. That's pretty much all the dealers 656 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: that were here. Yet the drug market remains, So you 657 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 2: have to start asking why that is, and you have 658 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: to start looking at the mechanisms that we have in place, 659 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 2: and then are state policies that are in place that 660 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 2: allow these judges to make these decisions that just create 661 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: a revolving door for organized drug dealers to go back 662 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: to the street sell fentanol that again is killing six 663 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: hundred plus people a year inner city. 664 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. So what are you doing now and 665 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: what's your message to people? What's your closing message to 666 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,760 Speaker 1: the folks today. 667 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 2: Well, I'm doing a variety of different things. I do 668 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 2: consulting work. I work for a great company called Sunflower Sober, 669 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: which is kind of the merger of AI and Recovery together. 670 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 2: It has an AI virtual sponsor that you can put 671 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: on your phone to give you support as you're trying 672 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: to stay sober and trying to stay in recovery. But 673 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 2: I also work on public policy. I work in that 674 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 2: field now as well, where I'm trying to push and 675 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 2: it's really an uphill battle because it's California, of course, 676 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 2: but to anyone who will listen nationwide, I'm trying to 677 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 2: push for more pragmatic changes to drug policy so that 678 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,720 Speaker 2: we shift our focus away from radical harm reduction, free 679 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 2: crack pipes to actually focusing on getting people off the drugs, 680 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 2: getting them healthy, and getting them reintegrated back into society 681 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 2: so that they can return to work, pay their taxes, 682 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 2: reconnect with their families. Those are the kinds of ideals 683 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 2: that that we need to be fighting for in this country, 684 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 2: for this population before it gets so far out of 685 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 2: control that we just have this permanent class of people 686 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 2: that are always going to be out there on the 687 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 2: street using drugs, destroying themselves and harming the community. 688 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: It's such common sense. I mean, it really is, but 689 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: it's very hard. After years of being told and this 690 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: seems crazy, people will go, Ahai, it's not hard. But 691 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: these communities have been told you've got to have free 692 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: crack pipes, you've got to have free syringes, You've got 693 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: we've got to get make this so that it's safe. 694 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: How can that possibly be safe? Now you have to 695 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: turn all of that thinking around, which seems like it 696 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: would be very easy. But I've watched people, I've listened 697 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,439 Speaker 1: to people on social media. I see regular people who 698 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: have fallen for this. And that's why I'm so grateful 699 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 1: that you told your story and you were so open 700 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,439 Speaker 1: with what you dealt with and what you saw out there, 701 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 1: because I think that without hearing it from someone who's 702 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: actually gone through it, we hear from pundits, we hear 703 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: from people all the time. You don't know it until 704 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: you've learned it from someone who's actually dealt with it. So, Tom, 705 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on today. 706 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 2: It has really been my pleasure. Thanks for giving me 707 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 2: the opportunity to share my story and to let people 708 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 2: know that accountability is a cornerstone of recovery. We need 709 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 2: to fight for it in this country. 710 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: Thank you absolutely, Tom Well, thank you so much for 711 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: coming on, and thank you all for joining us on 712 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: the Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others, you 713 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: can go to Tutor diisonpodcast dot com, the iHeartRadio app, 714 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and you 715 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: can watch the whole thing on Rumble or YouTube at 716 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: Tutor Dixon. Thank you so much, Join us next time 717 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: and have a blasted day.