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Speaker 1: You are listening Waiting on Reparations, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Yo Yo Yo, you are listening to Waiting

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Speaker 1: on Reparations. My name is Dope Knife Frank, and we're

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Speaker 1: here and we're back in effect another week. It is

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Speaker 1: the second week of Black History Month. How are you

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Speaker 1: holding up and celebrating? I'm good. So one way I'm

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Speaker 1: celebrating is um posting. So the full archives of the

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Speaker 1: Black Panther newspaper are available online, and so I've been

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Speaker 1: posting just pages of it, you know, with the ones

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Speaker 1: with like cool visuals as well as like descriptions of

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Speaker 1: what they contain. So today, you know, I've posted the

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Speaker 1: Black Panther ten point Program. A couple of days ago,

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Speaker 1: i posted about UM Huey Newton UM, one of the

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Speaker 1: founders of the Black Panthers, And so I'm just trying

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Speaker 1: to my best to like elevate the parts of black

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Speaker 1: history that people don't want to talk about because it

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Speaker 1: does not serve their political agenda, um and things like that. So, so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what about you. What I have been celebrated. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of like some down the line sort

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Speaker 1: of celebration. But one of the things I'm trying to organize.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to put together a little festival in Savannah,

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Speaker 1: like a music festival, but have it be like a

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Speaker 1: fundraiser for Stacy Abrams. What's up? Yeah, either either Stacy

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Speaker 1: Abrams or something to do with Georgia voting. One of

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Speaker 1: the two things. I'm just gonna focus around. I know,

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Speaker 1: I know. That's like I'm planning it to be around

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Speaker 1: like four you know, planning it now. So it's technically

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Speaker 1: my Black History mont celebration. You know, who's not celebrating

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Speaker 1: Black history a lot of it's not only been disinvited

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Speaker 1: from the cook out, like he's not even allowed to

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Speaker 1: eat barbecue. Wait, it was Joe Rogan ever really invited

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Speaker 1: to the cookout this whole that Yeah, when everything was

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Speaker 1: going down, it was one of those rare occasions where

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Speaker 1: I was on Twitter like to start my day and

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Speaker 1: just was kind of vegging out on Twitter for most

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Speaker 1: of the most of the night before in the day,

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Speaker 1: so like I kind of saw all this ship happening

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Speaker 1: in real time and like for real, like first it

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Speaker 1: was the Okay, So for anybody who doesn't know, so

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, one of the biggest podcasters in the world.

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Speaker 1: He hosts a show called The Joe Rogan Experience. Back

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Speaker 1: in it was it was an independent podcast for years,

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Speaker 1: crazy millions of listeners and and subscribers, all that whole

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Speaker 1: thing you got At this point, I'm just assuming that

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Speaker 1: everybody knows who Joe Rogan and what his podcast is. Right.

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Speaker 1: So a couple of years ago he gets a deal

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Speaker 1: with Spotify for a hundred million dollars, which now makes

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Speaker 1: him a mainstream corporate entity. I don't give a funk

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Speaker 1: what anybody says, but um, you know, Joe Rogan's had

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Speaker 1: He's had problematic instances in things on his show for

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Speaker 1: a while, but it's all kind of taken ahead and

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Speaker 1: come into public eye with his COVID disinformation that he

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Speaker 1: spreads on his show, and that led to this whole

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Speaker 1: standoff with Spotify or Spotify standing by their hundred million

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Speaker 1: dollar investment. But you've got artists like Neil Young and

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Speaker 1: Jody Mitchell and others who were taking their music off

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Speaker 1: the platform and effort to not be associated with the

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Speaker 1: COVID misinformation. But uh SCAD graduate Savannah College of Art

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Speaker 1: and Design graduate and Grammy Award winning artists India Iri

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Speaker 1: Sook to her Instagram to kind of point out something

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Speaker 1: that I in particular had been pointing out about Joe

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Speaker 1: Rogan just amongst my friends and stuff like that in

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Speaker 1: personal conversation for years now, which is a lot of

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Speaker 1: the racist quasi Nazi ship that goes on on the

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan podcast. It's dispersed enough that you know, you

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Speaker 1: could watch ten episodes in a row and not encounter it.

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Speaker 1: But when it's there, it's there, and it's they're pretty

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Speaker 1: strong and indie. A re started off by running a

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Speaker 1: montage Joe Rogan using the N word that was followed

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Speaker 1: up by a joke that he told about going to

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Speaker 1: a black neighborhood in Philly to see the movie Planet

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Speaker 1: of the Apes and a commentary about how the all

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Speaker 1: black crowd was like the Planet of the Apes, and

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Speaker 1: so on and so forth. Joe Rogan issued an apology

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Speaker 1: um for all of the cries of cancel culture, there's

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Speaker 1: not really any cancelation going on Spotify standing by him

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Speaker 1: saying that silencing is not the way to handle it. Um.

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Speaker 1: But for the most part, it's it's just illuminated this

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Speaker 1: particular aspect of the Joe Rogan Show for the general

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Speaker 1: public for normans who weren't really paying attention, whether they

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Speaker 1: are supporters of his or detractors. So, um, that is

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Speaker 1: the situation as it stands. Like I said, there's not

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Speaker 1: really any consequence to be taken out of it except

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Speaker 1: for his apology and that, you know, the opinions are

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Speaker 1: now you know, it seems like the opinions are now

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Speaker 1: solidly formed. You know, you've either got the people who

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Speaker 1: are like, oh, I don't think that's a big deal,

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Speaker 1: or you've got the people who are like, hey, this

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Speaker 1: is what I've been saying. Joe Rogan has been on

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Speaker 1: this ship for a long time. And then you've got

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Speaker 1: a bunch of regular people who are now either oh,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know Joe Rogan was like that funk that guy,

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Speaker 1: or you know, the opposite swing of that pendulum. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know Joe Rogan was like that. Awesome, I'm with it. So, so,

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Speaker 1: what have you been thinking of this whole thing, whatever,

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Speaker 1: however much of it you've been consuming. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I've long been skeptical of Joe Rogan and like the

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan too like crypto fascist pipeline um sort of

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Speaker 1: veiled in the fact that he does have many different

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Speaker 1: kinds of people on his show, his platforming of folks

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Speaker 1: like Stephen Wilno, like um, even Elon Muskle's just like

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Speaker 1: Notisanapolis and only know of him because of It's interesting

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Speaker 1: to me that this hadn't come come out earlier, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, if people are watching his podcast religiously and

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Speaker 1: he has this, you know, a million strong fan base,

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Speaker 1: how did no one bring up before now that there

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Speaker 1: were a hundred and eleven podcast where he used a

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Speaker 1: racial slurn, which I then think, yeah, okay, um, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: that's all I said right now. Well, I mean, um, okay.

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Speaker 1: So one of the biggest reason why I think it's

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Speaker 1: not even necessary that people didn't notice, but he wasn't

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Speaker 1: like mainstream then as big and popular as his podcast was.

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Speaker 1: I think having that Spotify corporate stamp, Fortune five hundred

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Speaker 1: stamp on it, it now makes all of that stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know, um issue for him because beforehand, I mean,

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Speaker 1: for example, the the video of him telling the Planet

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Speaker 1: of the Apes joke. I saw that shipped back in surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: do you know who put that out? Alex Jones was

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Speaker 1: the one who first put that out. Him and Joe Rogan.

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Speaker 1: We're beefing. Alex Jones was like, all right, well, if

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Speaker 1: me and Joe Rogan is not gonna have the other show.

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Speaker 1: Everybody thinks he's so cool, he's got a black daughter,

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Speaker 1: and listen to what he says about black people. And

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Speaker 1: then that happened in the summer of nineteen, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that's something like you see it and you you know,

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Speaker 1: a it was getting posted around, but it doesn't really

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Speaker 1: matter because ultimately it's just this dude's podcast in his

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Speaker 1: basement or in a spare room in his house that

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Speaker 1: he's doing on his own. So there is no when

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Speaker 1: you don't have like when there's no corporate entity to

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Speaker 1: pressure you know about it, then I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: think it can easily slip through the right you got.

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Speaker 1: You gotta go after the money. You can't just criticize

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan for what he does. Anybody in the basement

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Speaker 1: can do what he does. You like he has. He

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Speaker 1: has the prominence that he does because he has the

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Speaker 1: backing of Spotify. It's the backing of huge corporations, right,

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Speaker 1: and so you gotta go after the money. That makes

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Speaker 1: you think of like with the stop Pop City Um

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Speaker 1: struggle down here in Atlanta. Uh, like when they weren't

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Speaker 1: getting anywhere at Atlanta City Council, they started going for

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Speaker 1: the people that were funding the Atlanta Police Foundation, so um,

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Speaker 1: Coca cola, um, other organizations. Or even if you want

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Speaker 1: to think about the voter suppression bill that passed in

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Speaker 1: the state legislature. Here, I guess sometime last year, folks

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Speaker 1: are going after Delta and all of these other corporations

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Speaker 1: that were like, oh, black Lives Matter or whatever, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, bankrolling Republican campaigns to the tune of

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Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so another thing that

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Speaker 1: rises it raises for me is like how unfortunate it

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Speaker 1: is but necessary to like bring their receipts. Like everyone

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Speaker 1: knew he was shitty for a long time. It took

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Speaker 1: like a comprehensive compilation of all the reasons why and

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Speaker 1: like here are the links for people to be like,

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Speaker 1: you have a pretty strong case. I see that over

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Speaker 1: and over again with like anecdotal evidence versus pulling like

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Speaker 1: the actual receipts in a lot of organizing spaces where

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Speaker 1: it's like people are telling you something's wrong, but until

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Speaker 1: you find like the archival data where like the segregationist

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Speaker 1: senator was conspiring to destroy their neighborhood. Like that's when

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Speaker 1: you finally like, all right, I guess I'll do something

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Speaker 1: about it. So that also strikes me as really funny

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Speaker 1: about the circumstances that, right, well, um, you know, we'll

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Speaker 1: have to expand on this because it's it's uh, it's

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Speaker 1: opened up, you know, further conversation about um censorship and

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Speaker 1: what is censorship versus what isn't? Should Joe Rogan be silence?

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Speaker 1: Should he be removed from the platform, And I definitely

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Speaker 1: do want to dive into this stuff. We were also

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Speaker 1: we're supposed to talk about the NFL coaching situation, but

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Speaker 1: I think we'll save that for another day too. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, before we go into what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about for the day, I do just want to

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Speaker 1: touch on that one subject. It's just if the only

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Speaker 1: thing that existed in this situation was the compilation of

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Speaker 1: the N word, I don't think it would be that

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Speaker 1: big of a deal. And just me personally well to

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Speaker 1: the problem, I mean, because here's the thing, right, is

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Speaker 1: like he gave an explanation for the N word compilation

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Speaker 1: in terms of like, oh, well, this was me using

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Speaker 1: it as a quote, and I was using I was

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Speaker 1: recalling it in the story. Now for me personally, it's

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Speaker 1: really not that complicated. There's twenty three n words in there,

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Speaker 1: and he gave like three examples of him, you know,

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Speaker 1: quoting it that it's like, all right, I'm gonna need

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Speaker 1: to see like a detailed breakdown of like how each

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Speaker 1: of these was a quote. But besides the point, if

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Speaker 1: just for the benefit of doubt, all of those where

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Speaker 1: he's quoting a story, he's telling a story or something

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Speaker 1: like that. I mean, it makes me still not like

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, but it makes me ultimately not really like

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. It's like, oh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't listening to that show anyway, you know what I'm saying. Well,

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Speaker 1: but I think the aspects of like the jokes, and

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Speaker 1: then when you further do even deeper digging and you

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Speaker 1: look into the type of people that he's platformed, that

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Speaker 1: is that's the aspect and the element of it to me,

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Speaker 1: that is like all right, now this is still you know,

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Speaker 1: sensor removed, that's still like a subject for discussion, But

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Speaker 1: that is the aspect of Joe Rogan that is like, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: this is serious now because like you know, you can,

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Speaker 1: you can say whatever should you want. I don't care.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't have to affect me. I don't have to

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Speaker 1: listen to it. But if you're like luring people unsuspecting

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Speaker 1: people in by like, hey, we're interviewing m M a guy,

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Speaker 1: a comedian, a nuclear physicist, a white supremacist, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, And you're doing that cycle over and

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Speaker 1: over again. And I mean I've I've have people personally

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Speaker 1: in my life who otherwise are like normal, well adjusted

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Speaker 1: left leaning people that have fallen down the Joe Rogan

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Speaker 1: crypto fashionst pipeline. It's very easy, it's not difficult at all. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it speaks to the fact that the left

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Speaker 1: has to get better at its media game. Um, like

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Speaker 1: you know, we need to we have to win the conversation.

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Speaker 1: We can't just say oh, um, like you, I guess

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Speaker 1: to a degree, like you shouldn't have these people on,

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Speaker 1: like I like, I don't think he should, but I

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Speaker 1: think i'd rather than like sensor him. I think we

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Speaker 1: just need to do a better job of convincing people

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Speaker 1: and creating our own pipeline to like liberatory ideas because

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Speaker 1: otherwise if this is all we have, and it's like

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Speaker 1: all you have is Joe Rogan as like a huge

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Speaker 1: name in podcasting, like that's partially our failure. That's true,

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Speaker 1: that's true, but it's not even you know, just personally,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what anybody else thinks. For me, it's

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Speaker 1: not even the platforming like people that I check out,

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Speaker 1: like Vosh who's a YouTuber, YouTube, twitch, political streamer, or

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Speaker 1: um even what is Homie's name? Who got fired from

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Speaker 1: CNN's Quomo Andrew Quomo, one of the quotma no no,

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Speaker 1: no no um black dude, he was a commentation Mark

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Speaker 1: Lamont Hill. Mark Lamont Hill on his channel, he's always

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Speaker 1: talking to right wingers in like these fringe like you know,

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Speaker 1: quasi alt right figures who are spewing their ship. The

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Speaker 1: difference is how you go about it. If Mark Lamont

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Speaker 1: Hill sits across from somebody and the person says, he,

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Speaker 1: you know, black people have an intrinsic violent gene that

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Speaker 1: makes them more violent than the other races. That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Oh dude, really, dude, bros, that word dude like that,

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Speaker 1: you know that's not gonna be Vosh is going to

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Speaker 1: like push back like there's ways that you can do

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Speaker 1: it where it becomes a straw man to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you want a silence, you don't want people to be platformed.

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Speaker 1: You're afraid of discussion, you're afraid of debate, and it's

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Speaker 1: like how you engage with them? Yeah, if you're engaging critically,

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Speaker 1: actually have to engage like like like for people to

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Speaker 1: want for the Joe Rogan stands out there, a lot

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Speaker 1: of whom are straight up Nazis and a lot of

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Speaker 1: whom are just like people who don't give a funk

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Speaker 1: about issues like this and stuff like that. But if

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Speaker 1: they if they don't want people to jump to the

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Speaker 1: conclusion of yo, I heard Joe Rogan said this, so

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Speaker 1: I think this about him and everything that he is,

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Speaker 1: then you know it probably would have behooved Joe Rogan

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Speaker 1: over these years if like he could counter with clips

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Speaker 1: of him passionately going back at like some of these

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Speaker 1: guests that he has has on his show, because he

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be interacting with my Unapolis the same way as

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Speaker 1: he does with Cornel West if I'm supposed to think

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Speaker 1: that he's cool, yeah, or even just yeah, this like

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Speaker 1: engaging critically with both of them like instead of just

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Speaker 1: being huh, that's interesting, Oh black people skulls are like

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Speaker 1: con cave and commend whatever. Commended. But that's not racist.

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Speaker 1: I have supported Bernie, supported by you know, yeah you

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Speaker 1: said you might vote for him once whatever the other

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Speaker 1: thing you want to bring up about Joe Rogan, And

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Speaker 1: like I like to be hyperbolic sometimes because it's more entertaining. Um,

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Speaker 1: Like there's a level of like almost stochastic terrorism that

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Speaker 1: comes with uh, COVID misinformation. Um. And so like just

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Speaker 1: a couple of days ago January, a big fan of

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Speaker 1: his and friend who was you know, talking about his

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Speaker 1: show all the time on his Instagram, UM, comedian Christian

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Speaker 1: Cabrera UM died of COVID, you know, and often talked

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Speaker 1: in conjunction with you know, loving Joe Rogan about like

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Speaker 1: vaccine hesitancy and um it's also you know, spread a

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Speaker 1: lot of Joe Rogan's vaccine and misinformation. And now this

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Speaker 1: person is dead and so like he's a famous person,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's a comedian, but how many other people

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Speaker 1: who watched his show also We're like maybe that is

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Speaker 1: sketchy and like are dead now we don't know, we

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Speaker 1: don't have those numbers, whether you want to call that

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Speaker 1: murder or whatever, whatever. I don't think that it's even

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Speaker 1: debatable that that has happened. No, it's not even debatable.

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Speaker 1: It's just like there's there's no way to know the

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Speaker 1: impact negatively in a very literal, concrete way. But um,

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Speaker 1: we have a great on about Joe Rogan for a while,

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Speaker 1: So why don't we talk about like white people that

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Speaker 1: don't suck? So Yeah, this week we had the honor

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Speaker 1: to interview Joan and Loki Moholland Um. Joan Um was

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Speaker 1: a freedom writer, UM whose mug shot was called one

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Speaker 1: of the most iconic and American history. UM. She Um,

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Speaker 1: at the age of twenty three, had participated in over

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Speaker 1: fifty sent ins and demonstrations like the Freedom Rights the

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Speaker 1: Jackson Woolwrith set in the marchin Washington, and Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: knew some of the biggest names in the civil rights movement,

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Speaker 1: from Mega Evans, Mega Evans, Fanny lew Haymer, John Lewis,

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Speaker 1: Julian Bond. And so we'll be speaking with her as

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Speaker 1: well as her son, who has recently made a documentary

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Speaker 1: about her called an Ordinary Hero. Yeah, and he's the

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Speaker 1: executive director of the Joan Moholland Foundation. Um has actually

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Speaker 1: directed um Sello documentaries and Um wrote a book She

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Speaker 1: Stood for Freedom, Um, which was nominated for a war.

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Speaker 1: So they're both very involved into this day in civil

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Speaker 1: rights struggle in their own different ways. And the somewhat

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Speaker 1: details what we're talking about with regards to art and

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Speaker 1: the role of you know, shaping the political discourse in

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Speaker 1: the sense that, like Joe Rogans over here, it's kind

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Speaker 1: as podcast, which itself is a form of media that

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Speaker 1: is shaping the political discourse, and Um Loki, especially as

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Speaker 1: a filmmaker, is doing the same with his work. And

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Speaker 1: we have a lot of discussion in the interview about

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Speaker 1: the role of arts in movement making. So without further ado,

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Speaker 1: let's get on into it. We'll be right back with

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Speaker 1: that after the jump. So today I am super honored

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Speaker 1: to be joined by Joan and Loki Muholland. I will

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Speaker 1: let them introduce themselves in their own words, because the

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Speaker 1: breadth of experience they bring with them is kind of impressive.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like, yeah, there's a lot, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot going on there, but yeah, whoever, like to start

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about yourselves and what y'all do.

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Speaker 1: Go on, boy, I was gonna say ladies first, but well,

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Speaker 1: my name is Loki maholl Um, I'm Jones's son. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm a filmmaker, activins author, and uh yeah, we see

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Speaker 1: you represent over there. Yeah, Joan Mahaland I'm Loki's mama.

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Speaker 1: And Loki was after the Norse god of mischief or sidekick,

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Speaker 1: and he's lived up to it. Um, I'm a Delta.

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Speaker 1: I got into a lot of good trouble back in

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Speaker 1: the day, and you know, freedom writer and all that

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff. Good, Yeah you are. You knew a

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Speaker 1: lot of folks that people may recognize when you know

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Speaker 1: we're studying the history of the civil rights movement. Um,

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Speaker 1: Mr Evers, Danniel Hammer play people like that. It's Fannie

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Speaker 1: Hammer Hamer. Oh my god. If I've been saying that

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Speaker 1: around my whole life. See, this is what we need

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Speaker 1: better civics and lack history education in schools. Because I'm

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Speaker 1: growing up, I've taught myself most well. I feel like

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Speaker 1: most of what I know as an adult, like you know,

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Speaker 1: reading online, reading books, etcetera. Because they don't really teach

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Speaker 1: you what you need to know in school. Unfortunately, word was,

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Speaker 1: you know, the slaves were happy and the slave masters

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Speaker 1: were kind. Yeah. I actually have a friend who is

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Speaker 1: a professor at um University in Hartford who studies how

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Speaker 1: even back to like slavery texts from like ancient Greece,

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Speaker 1: the way that like the happy slave narrative was even

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Speaker 1: a thing then, and like how that then, you know,

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Speaker 1: factors into the way people sometimes use classics, like in

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Speaker 1: white supremacist movements to say like, oh, the purity of

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Speaker 1: the Western tradition. But yeah, like unless you unless you

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Speaker 1: really teach yourself, um, you can, yeah, get stuck with

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Speaker 1: some of these. Oh that's interesting back to the ancient

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Speaker 1: Greeks because when we had standardized testing, I think it's

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Speaker 1: pretty much out now in Virginia. But one of the

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Speaker 1: questions for the kids his foot, what did we get

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Speaker 1: from the Greeks? And you were supposed to say, you know, democracy,

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Speaker 1: voting rights, stuff like that. I said, no, no no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's that's all. We got voting rights for free property

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Speaker 1: owning white men. Precisely, we got some highways. Yeah, maybe

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Speaker 1: some like column shapes, you know, like some art, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're still trying to get voting rise today. And what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, so, um, well, I'm really really excited to

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Speaker 1: have you all here today. Particularly I'm super interested in

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Speaker 1: the way that movement work manifests in the various different

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Speaker 1: kinds of things you do. And also we've got two

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Speaker 1: generations of people here. Um, we're doing the good work. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I think that like the idea of intergenerational like

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Speaker 1: liberation movement struggle is not when we talk about enough

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Speaker 1: like they got the young kids out here, like the

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Speaker 1: Sunrise Movement or etcetera. And then we study you know,

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Speaker 1: civil rights history um as if it you know, would

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Speaker 1: happened long ago, and like we don't need to be

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Speaker 1: marching um anymore things like that. So, um, how do

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Speaker 1: you see your work from two different generations overlapping or

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Speaker 1: diverging at certain points? Well, I say my generation got

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Speaker 1: rid of the segregation laws underlying racism. It's still there

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Speaker 1: and that's what folks need to work on. Now. Um.

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Speaker 1: We marched, we sat in, we went to jail, um,

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Speaker 1: you know things like that. We could sing real good,

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Speaker 1: except for me, I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.

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Speaker 1: That the Jackson, Mississippi. The joke we had a little

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Speaker 1: joke in the movement that if the police were marching

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Speaker 1: on us, they just pushed Joan to the front and

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Speaker 1: she would sing loudly right in their face and they

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Speaker 1: would back off because I say, Okay, what is that? Yeah, yeah, backup,

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Speaker 1: But you're a singer two on top of everything logy yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: play guitar on Hey. Well, maybe we'll come back to

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Speaker 1: the question about like generational differences, because we're kind of

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Speaker 1: starting to talk about art. And that's something that I

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Speaker 1: don't understand. I don't know a lot about from my

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Speaker 1: studying of like civil rights and like other liberation movements,

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Speaker 1: is like what the role of art was during that era? Looky,

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Speaker 1: you know, brilliant filmmaker and as I as a hip

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Speaker 1: hop artist, see the potential for use of that um

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Speaker 1: too spread stories that bring people into the movement and

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Speaker 1: educate people, etcetera. UM. But Joan, like, what what role

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Speaker 1: did like music and film and art and stuff like

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Speaker 1: that play in in your time? Well, film want a

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Speaker 1: big deal, except you know, watching the evening news on

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Speaker 1: TV and UM singing. That was the backbone of the movement.

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Speaker 1: That is what gave us strength and courage to keep

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Speaker 1: on keeping on mhm um it was you know, songs

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Speaker 1: that were sort of adapted from the church songs and

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Speaker 1: it's it's it sounded if you weren't listening to the

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Speaker 1: words like you were in church when we had these

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Speaker 1: Yankees coming down and you know, they were good people,

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Speaker 1: but they sang like they were on a picket line,

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Speaker 1: a Union picket line, yeah, which they didn't have a sing. Art. Well,

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Speaker 1: you needed art for posters and picket signs and things

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Speaker 1: like that. So that was sort of where it was at.

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Speaker 1: And so, um, Loki today working in film and you know,

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Speaker 1: a variety of media. Honestly, Um, what do you see

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Speaker 1: as the role of art in movement making today? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and I want to kind of um like

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Speaker 1: what my mom says, but roll back a little bit further,

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Speaker 1: because obviously art was used even um during the time

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Speaker 1: of slavery. Yeah, absolutely used to give direction and how

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Speaker 1: to get north. Artistry that went into quilts. Um, the

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Speaker 1: literature was a key component. And oh gosh, and the

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Speaker 1: abolitionist movement. Yeah, yeah, you know, so those those sort

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Speaker 1: of things, and it continued. I mean obviously during my

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Speaker 1: mom's time, I mean, film was used as well. Um,

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Speaker 1: the a lot of times that was you the documentary.

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Speaker 1: It's not like it is today when we have so

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Speaker 1: much more access to that. It was more underground. Um.

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Speaker 1: But that was that burgeoning movement of art to really

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Speaker 1: kind of push forward these ideals, um, and these and

424
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 1: these alternative narratives to the prescribed history that was taught

425
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: in our textbooks and as what we're seeing today as well, UM,

426
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 1: and continuously obviously, UM, you know during the eighties and

427
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: nineties in particular, you know, with public Enemy in w

428
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: A and so forth. I mean all of that. Um,

429
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: those scenes were just these narratives that people hadn't heard before.

430
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: You know, when I say people, I mean America. So

431
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: they control the media pretty much. Um, the photographers, with

432
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: the press, they were powerful. I say, you take it

433
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: to the lunch counter, the lawyers take it to the court,

434
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: but the press takes it to the world. And when

435
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: things will start flying, the press was in every bit

436
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: as much danger as the demonstrators, and sometimes they were

437
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: the first ones attacked. So the picture of the Jacks

438
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: and Woolworths sit in which I'm sure you've seen what

439
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: I'm having sugar dumped on my head, as I like

440
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: to say, like I wasn't sweet enough already, but that

441
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: went worldwide. It was colorized. Color was added to the

442
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: black and white. They didn't have color photography and the presdent.

443
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 1: But in the Paris Match front page above the centerfold,

444
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: the most powerful place in the newspaper. And this was

445
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: the most powerful newspaper in Europe. It was like the

446
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: New York Times. So that you know. Went and when

447
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: I was in South Africa, um a few years ago,

448
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: thinking of the music um down in Cape Town, a

449
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: bunch of US ladies went to um A school for

450
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: a morning of volunteer work and I ended up since

451
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: I used to work in the schools up here. Um well,

452
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: I was up from Georgia. You know, it's still down

453
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: south and Arlington Commany Lee's hometown. But um we told

454
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: the students what we had, what we did back in

455
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: the States. We had Q and A, and then we

456
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: had our closing statement, and I said, back in the

457
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: days of our civil rights movement, we had a song

458
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: we shall overcome. Now. My intention was to say, whatever

459
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: difficulty you're facing in life, tell yourself those three words

460
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: and things will get better. No, I got cut right

461
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: off by the school teacher. This is a room packed

462
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: with fourth graders and he said, oh, we sang that

463
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: song in our partid demonstrations class. Let's all sing it together.

464
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: So there I was, over fifty years since our civil

465
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: rights you know, the student civil rights movement, singing we

466
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: Shall Overcome in Cape Town, South Africa, in the room

467
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: packed with fourth or fifth graders, and it just about

468
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: brought me to tears. So it traveled. Yeah. I think

469
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: about that. I think about as I said previously, about

470
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: the public enemy and w A I mean Spike Lee

471
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: Yea works and these messages that were putting forth that uh,

472
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: why America hadn't heard and didn't really to understand or

473
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: want to understand. And if you go back and and

474
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: I mean it was almost it's like a canary in

475
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: the mind sort of thing. I was like, wow, I

476
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: mean all of that has come to pass. And then

477
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: some yeah, aldy today you know what's uh, you know

478
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: the the my mom was talking about the press and

479
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: the cameras and stuff. Obviously the quickest way to censor

480
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: that was his bash a camera. I'm about the film

481
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: which they did, which they did, and today we have

482
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: you know, those those other techniques now of of of

483
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: blocking channels and or streams on social media and so

484
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: forth saying you know this this content is offensive or

485
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: whatever else and being these filters now. Um, so they

486
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: did that with the Evening News and get h Yeah,

487
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: that's right. Difficulties Uh yeah, like ever speech. Um, I

488
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: just think about like, you know, these these new opportunities

489
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: that exist like TikTok and so forth. That's that is

490
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: a very quick way to get the message across and

491
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: how people are learning. Yeah, no, I mean there's still

492
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: space for longer formats and so forth, and obviously the

493
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: tools that are there to share those messages. Probably part

494
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: of the pitfall of that is so much disinformation that

495
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: gets out there, um, the lack of research, the lack

496
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: of study, the lack of understanding and context and so forth.

497
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: So there's and then obviously the immediate feedback that you

498
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: get from people who and the bombing, you know, the

499
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: trolling and so forth that takes place media to just

500
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: kind of discredit and take people down rabbit holes away

501
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: from the core message. Someone I did a post this

502
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: the other day about a mere luck I took nine seconds,

503
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: and someone said, well, it's actually a six second because

504
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: there was a wait for three of them, like Okay, okay,

505
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: right exactly, yeah, yeah, the way people parts details to

506
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: de legitimize, like very real thing. Oh, we used humor

507
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,959
Speaker 1: also in the movement. If your mama ever told you

508
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: not to drink coffee because it would turn you black,

509
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: you know, back and back in the days before black

510
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: was beautiful, I am living proof that it ain't. So

511
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: mama probably just wanted all that coffee for her so self. Yeah,

512
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: she could have probably used some of that sugar they

513
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: dumped on you though, So you know, sweeten up a

514
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: little bit. But I think you started to get into

515
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: my next question. Looky, it's about um. I mean, we've

516
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: spoken really to two parts of it. I'm really interested

517
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: in the way you sort of describe the long history

518
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: of the arts in various movements, highlighting the way that

519
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: even the abolitionist movement for the abolition of slavery, you know,

520
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: literature and songs were so critical. Um. And so I'm curious,

521
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: you know, sticking to this theme of intergenerational struggle, UM,

522
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: what parts do you see yourself carrying forward from previous

523
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: movements having been very um, I guess in meshed in

524
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: its history growing up with Joan and what sorts of

525
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: new things. I mean, you mentioned TikTok already, but what

526
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: are some of the differences that you try to lean

527
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: into in your modern day work. Um, there's so much differences.

528
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: For me, it's, um, you know, I've I've been asked

529
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: repeatedly what I have set the lunch counter, And I'm like, yeah,

530
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if I would have, but I don't

531
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: have to because my mother already did this kind of Yeah,

532
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: those different there's like things like that, yeah, yeah, yeah,

533
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: And and it really it's we all have a role

534
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: to play. Not everyone could set the lunch counters. Not

535
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: everyone this position. Uh, there was threats for on families,

536
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: you know, they could lose their tuition all these different jobs,

537
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: or houses be bombed and whatever else. Um. And and

538
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: some people you know this, they just weren't at that

539
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: place at that time, you know. And and so they

540
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: found other ways to contribute. Um. So I use the

541
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: gifts that I've been given to you move that work forward,

542
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: move that message forward, and to highlight the history. At

543
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: the end of the day. Um, whether we're gonna go

544
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: back to abolitionists or civil rights movement or any sort

545
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: of movement, it really comes down to that one on

546
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: one opportunity of seeing those individuals, seeing those people sitting

547
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: at the lunch counter, that you have to actually confront it.

548
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,479
Speaker 1: It's right there in front of you that you just

549
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: can't replicate in a film or or you know, the

550
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: photograph or anything yeah yeah, or rap song. It just

551
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: becomes those The art becomes a way to motivate people, um,

552
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: you know, to inspire, to inform, But really it's to

553
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: do all that to get you down to those lunch counters,

554
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: on the buses or in the streets. Carrying the signs

555
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: and putting forth that message to move things forward and

556
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 1: designing a petition online is not you know, really bringing

557
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: about a big change. It's just making you feel good.

558
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. I had post a TikTok earlier about

559
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: getting off Twitter and like getting in the streets, whether

560
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: that's knocking on your neighbor's doors or marching or go

561
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: into city hall, whatever you gotta do. Um, but yeah,

562
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: I like the idea of everyone having their role to play.

563
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: That kind of makes me rethink my question and a

564
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: lot of the things we need to do are the same,

565
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: and that like certain people put their bodies online, certain

566
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: people's are documenting it. It's really about folks finding the

567
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: intersection of their passion and what the gifts they're given

568
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: with the tools that are available at the time. So

569
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: now we do have TikTok and Instagram to like make

570
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: sure those images of protests are circulated. Um, so it's

571
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: the same kind of project, just new tools. Yeah, and

572
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: and and and you know, I mean we're in a

573
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: capital society. Money makes the world turn. I mean you

574
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: had people, um, beyond the Harry Belafontes of the world.

575
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: You had actually white women whose husbands were probably either

576
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: in the clan or in the White Citizens Council and

577
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: Jackson who were giving money to the Mays, to the

578
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: help Right to give back to Medgarrever's office. They knew

579
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: they couldn't give it directly, so they would sneak it in.

580
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: And this is this is known. There was a gentleman's

581
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: great story. He um, his gift was robbing jewelry stores. Hey, whatever,

582
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: that's what you got. He would time out the train

583
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: and how long it would take the police to get

584
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: to the jewelry store, rob the store, hopped the train,

585
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: go the next town, sell the goods to rent some repeat,

586
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: and that money went back to the act. Now they

587
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: had no idea where it was coming from. They did,

588
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: they might be like, yeah, that's amazing, but yeah, I mean, hey,

589
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: you use the gifts you've been given the stores and

590
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: selling the goods for money. But obviously, yeah, I could

591
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 1: use being white to the advantage of the movement. Could

592
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: um blend into the crowd and be an observer of

593
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: what was happening. I could At Glen Echo Amusement Park

594
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: just over in Maryland, I could go in and buy tickets.

595
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: And I heard it buy me to have a ticket

596
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: for each ride you got on, ticket in hand, and

597
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: I could go back out and hand him out from

598
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: the Howard students who popped on the Merry Go Round

599
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: ticket in hand and got arrested. What were the passes

600
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: that you gave me when I was a two blue student.

601
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 1: I went up to the state legislature and got a

602
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: handful of passes to you know, sit in the galleries

603
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: and watch the legislature debate things. Went back, gave those

604
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: to Mega and he handed him out to the most

605
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: prominent black ministers he could find, and they got arrested.

606
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: Gallery pass in hand, m hm. And by the next

607
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: day the law had changed you had to personally get

608
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: your pass from your representatives, but there would a number

609
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: of times just being white could be used to the

610
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: advantage of the movement. So you got to use what

611
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: you got. Yeah. Yeah, And I think people are still

612
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: waking up to that today of thinking about how I

613
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: mean broadly people say use your privilege, etcetera. But the

614
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 1: specific ways for us, like, yeah, use use your whiteness

615
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: to like get in those spaces where others can um

616
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: and things like that I'm doing. I had one question

617
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: for you, So we talked a little bit about what

618
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: Loki takes from movements before. But I was wondering if

619
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: there's anything that young movement makers are doing today that

620
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: you find interesting or inspiring. Well, I find the complete

621
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,479
Speaker 1: diversity of the crowds and the marches, to say nothing

622
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: of the size of the crowds and the marches. But

623
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: I think you've got a much you know, like a

624
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: no majority massive demonstration. Um, we didn't have that. We

625
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 1: had just a handful of Wie or Hispanic or Asian

626
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: folks in our activities and marches. Um, well, we didn't

627
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: have so many marches because you all get arrested. Um

628
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: before we got down the block before and the police

629
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: are even joining the marchers and protesters with them, mailing

630
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: to pray with them, if just for those my mind. Um,

631
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: that makes me think as well about talking about like

632
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: then and now that and now so at the time,

633
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: from my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jones,

634
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: it seemed like a lot of folks that took part

635
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: in the civil rights movement were somewhat demonized. I saw

636
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: recently a comic from I think the Birmingham News where

637
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: they were painting MLK as UM starting riots even though

638
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: non violence was the core of the movement. And then

639
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: yet today the same people that are disrupting modern movements

640
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: sending the National Garden when folks are marching and tear

641
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: gassing folks are heralding um civil rights movement leaders at

642
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: the same time. And so I was wondering what you

643
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: both make of trends like that where you see a

644
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: sort of contradiction in the way folks um treat both

645
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: historic and modern civil rights movements. Yeah, well, I mean

646
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,919
Speaker 1: immediately comes to mind as someone like Ted Cruise, who

647
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: in one breath will praise quote doctor King and his

648
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: convenie and then say that appointing a you know, even

649
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: the idea of appointing a black woman is an affront

650
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: to an insult to black women, and uh, you know,

651
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: and inequality, which it was just absurd to begin with,

652
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: like he cares um. But yeah, you know Dr King

653
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: when he when he was killed, study percent of white

654
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: America you know, didn't like him, if you holes and stuff.

655
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: But now you know, it's it's weaponizing Dr King to

656
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: push forward. Uh you know these agendas of like you know,

657
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: anti CRT, which of course not taught taught in school

658
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: is not even a Yeah, it's a whole thing to

659
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: roll back, you know, the narrative that they feel uncomfortable with.

660
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: Um because then and and quite frankly don't even understand. Yeah,

661
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a fascinating thing. Um do you do

662
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: you even contemplate? But uh, that's that's where it's so

663
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: vital for the rest of us to be informed. And

664
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: and I when I have people who quote Dr King

665
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: like that, like, hey, yes, that's wonderful. What about the

666
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: rest of his speech? Yeah, do you know any words

667
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: after the first seven Well do you know the words

668
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: that you said before that? Oh? Yeah, yeah, everything before

669
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: that was about reparations I mean, let's talk about that

670
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: for a moment. It's talking about that. Let's talk about

671
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: you know, a federal job guarantee. Let's talk about the

672
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: evils of capitalism and militarism. Nobody wants to get into that.

673
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: But John, from your perspective, having lived through that and

674
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: seeing the way that people treat it today, what is

675
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: that like for you? Um? Aside from comical, Um, they

676
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: want to idealize of what we did and we were

677
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 1: not perfectly made mistakes. Um, there are things we could

678
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: have done better. Um, all that, But um, they want

679
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: to use us as you know that we did it

680
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: all and they don't need to do anything, and they

681
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: need to look deeper. I mean, like I said, we

682
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: took care of the laws for segregation, but there is

683
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: so much more the racism behind, and then the forms

684
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: that the racism takes. Um. Housing, Yeah, whose neighborhood does

685
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: the interstate care up? Where does the school money go?

686
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: It's not you know that some schools get hand me

687
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 1: downs anymore like it used to be. But certainly, um,

688
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: they say, you know, I'm in Arlington, and they say

689
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: South Arlington gets the least and North Arlington gets the

690
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: most because the rich folks lived there in the power base.

691
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: But um, it doesn't need to be that way. Discrimination

692
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: against people because of their first language, um, their ethnic origins,

693
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 1: their religion, all that stuff. I was impressed a few

694
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: years ago when the anti Muslim thing got going that

695
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: college kids, girls and some places, we're walking around with

696
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: their classmates wearing his jobs, just like the classmates were.

697
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: But there are lots of ways to show solidarity. There's

698
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: lots more forms of discrimination that we now recognize. And

699
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: part of that comes to mind as well, is how

700
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: we you know, so part of it is like Dr

701
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: King was a comedy, right, all that sort of stuff.

702
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: It's like the Washington football team will now be hailed

703
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: to their and I didn't think about that. I love

704
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 1: that it's funny, but um, you know, so so those sames,

705
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: those same terms are thrown around. They don't even know

706
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: what they mean. But um, I think what's really fascinating

707
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 1: is there's part of this element of the civil rights

708
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: movements kind of safe to talk about. Well you don't

709
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: talk about why it happened, of course, but there's this,

710
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, the sort of glorification if you will. You know,

711
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: there's the freedom writers and the sit ins and all this,

712
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 1: you know, John Lewis and the other impettish Ridge and

713
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: Dr King. I had a dream all that sort of

714
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: stuff because it means hey problem solved. And I actually

715
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: did a TikTok video on this recently, just talking about

716
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: you know what scares um white America about teaching history

717
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 1: is that it's there. It's it's their own history. Because

718
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 1: my age, when I was in elementary school, Dr King

719
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: had only been killed, you know, sixteen years earlier. So

720
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: World War Two had only ended about forty years earlier.

721
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: So um, if you if you take today and roll

722
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: back that same time period forty years ago, forty years ago, Uh,

723
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Police Department was bombing their own city and

724
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: people know about that stuff. Off in your math. World

725
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: War Two ended, and you were in elementary school and

726
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 1: the late mentally seventies, right, I wasn't how much schooling

727
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: to eighties? Mom? I was ten years old, nineteen eight. Okay,

728
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: Well that's store up forty years okay, mother. Nonetheless, world

729
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: War two was raging forty years earlier. Yeah, that's let's safe.

730
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: The message your worst subject and you're trying to school

731
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: me on a mother, But if you go back one

732
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: years ago, Rodney King was beaten. Four years ago, you know,

733
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: James Bird was was lynched Jasper, Texas, right dragged behind

734
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: a pickup truck, chained by his feet till his body

735
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: fell apart. Ten years ago, is Trayvon. Yeah, these were

736
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: the things that that's the type same type of stuff

737
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: they would have been teaching us back then. If they

738
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: were even going to teach that. They weren't going to

739
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: teach it. But so if you take a look at

740
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: that time frame, that's what really scares him because they

741
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: were alive during that. They understand that, and they it's like, wow,

742
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: that happened on our watch and did yeah, And and

743
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: the history of racism is so it's taught as black

744
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: history when it's really white history, and that it's a

745
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: lot of white people as well, folks like Joan that

746
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,720
Speaker 1: were out there marching with people. It was like a

747
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: shared struggle for some folks, but is just straight out

748
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: in our US history, it's a sewers history. Yeah, I

749
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: was very I was very interested in something you said, Joan,

750
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: about how you all made mistakes. There's things that you

751
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,919
Speaker 1: would have done differently, and that's certainly not a piece

752
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: of history that they teach people in the in the

753
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: way that they idealize the struggle at the time we

754
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: levon Brown. Mom talks about that my jog memory a

755
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: little bit. But um, when there was that schism in Snick,

756
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: the Snake leadership between John, Yeah, I think I think

757
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: the thing that I I kind of focus on at

758
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: times about the civil rights movement is we kind of

759
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 1: forget you know, we we we focus on these key

760
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: singular moments, the Greensboro sit in and the freedom rise

761
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: into setness. Um, but you know, and assume that one

762
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 1: thing took care of everything, and that you know, we

763
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: can condense these things down to just a couple of

764
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 1: days here and there and hoof everything. Saw. I mean,

765
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: Greensboro did not fix Jackson. Greensboro fixed Greensboro Jackson Jackson

766
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: right right. We all need to work within the space

767
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: where we live, as my mom would say. And that's

768
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 1: the hippies say, you know, bloom where you're planted right right. Um,

769
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 1: we tell kids, don't try to change the world, change

770
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: your world, whatever that might be. And what for my

771
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: mom it was the South right want I didn't care

772
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: about them. Let them fix their own stuff. They got

773
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: their own different problems that they'll tackle. Well, you know,

774
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: Malcolm X was working on that, right, so right, yeah, yeah,

775
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: but yeah, I really appreciate you raising that because I

776
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: think I speak to like middle schools, high schools all

777
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: the time, and I've been thinking a lot about how this,

778
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: like civil rights history is kind of painted for a

779
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: lot of kids like something that happened somewhere else as

780
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: part of the way where they're trying to discourage people

781
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: from like carrying those struggles forward. It's like, oh, they

782
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: were marching, Yeah, they're marching on Washington, They're marching down

783
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: in Mississippi. Was like, no, they were marching in Athens, Georgia,

784
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: Like we had our own movement here. Yeah, they don't

785
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: want you to know about because at the university, Wait,

786
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: you when integrating. Yeah, yes, I do recall that they

787
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: don't teach you about that. That inspired me to, um

788
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: go to two Galoup that watching that so close to

789
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 1: where my family was from Nicholson, that if integration was real,

790
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 1: I was thinking, it's got to be a two way street.

791
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: Maybe I should applied to a colored school, not being

792
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: put like term then and um I talked it over

793
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: with my friends. You know, the leadership of Snick and

794
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: they thought it was a good idea. And somebody said, well,

795
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: if you're gonna do what you may as well go

796
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: to Mississippi. Those students haven't done anything yet, meaning demonstrations,

797
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: maybe you can help them. And so I applied, and

798
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: two of the lutives. It was the only nationally accredited

799
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,479
Speaker 1: school that colored students could go to. Sorry about that phone,

800
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: I don't know how to remut it. It's all that

801
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: I got a baby yodel in the background, we got phones,

802
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: It's all. It's an orchestract. And I was accepted in

803
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: two Glue, even though my high school up here refused,

804
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: very pointedly, without spelling it out, to send my transcripts. Um.

805
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: But they still accepted me and said, oh well we'll

806
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: take you on your Duke University transcripts and go on

807
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: there for one year, reported company when I wanted to

808
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: go back to school, and it was right after the riots.

809
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: And that is such an interesting idea that I don't

810
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 1: think people and brave enough that like integration does have

811
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 1: to be a two way stream. Um, it's not just

812
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: about like advancing, you know, getting people of color and

813
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: positions of power and into these white spaces. It's also

814
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: like I got this one friend that's like, why dude

815
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: who like shows up at like all of these like

816
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: all black events, cetera. Does it just happened to be

817
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: in black communities. But he's out there doing the work

818
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: of meeting people, of helping people, of talking to folks. Um.

819
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 1: But so many people are scared to do that because

820
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: there is helping green racism. Like even if you try

821
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 1: to be an anti racism, it's like, well if I

822
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: show up, like people will laugh at me or I won't,

823
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to understand, etcetera. But that's

824
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: a really important thing for us to remember as well.

825
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: And there are lots of different ways to make a difference.

826
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: I mean I was sitting in and all that. Then

827
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: I had a family and that really I had to

828
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: take care of the kids. But at their elementary school

829
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: I made a difference. Um, I particularly one of and

830
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: a number of different ways. But the music teacher who

831
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: lived a couple of blocks so I may wanted to

832
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: a good song to teach for I think it was,

833
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: you know, Black History Month, and I said, we'll lift

834
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: every voice and sing. He had not a blue but

835
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: she looked it up. She wanted to teach it to something,

836
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: to teach to the chorus to sing it and um

837
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: our big international dinner. She ended up teaching that song

838
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: to every kid in the school and they sang it

839
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: at the international dinner with the chorus standing on the stage.

840
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: But every kid, you know, singing on probably the first

841
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: I'm you know, not a nine point nine for St.

842
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: Suard's the first formerly all white school in the county,

843
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: if not the state, for all the kids to learn

844
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: lift every voice and sing. But there were a number

845
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: of other things too, But the biggest deal in my book,

846
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: it's not just like study again, like the big event studying,

847
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: you know what happened in Greensburg's also just knowing about

848
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 1: cultural artifacts from our communities, like taking the time to

849
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: learn a very important song test and things like that. Yeah,

850
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: I took care. They had all these white doll baby

851
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: and olders sounds kindergarten class, and it was the girl's

852
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: corner and the boys corner. Well, I took care of

853
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,280
Speaker 1: the doll babies by making a bunch of cloth dolls

854
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 1: out of different skin tone. Perhaps I had an interchangeable

855
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 1: clothes and those white plastic doll babies disappeared, and then

856
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: I said, well, now, my son, he's going to be

857
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: upset by you pauling that the girl's corner because he

858
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: likes he wanted an ironing board, small ironing board for Christmas,

859
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: and he's not gonna be happy about you saying that's

860
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: a girl thing. Well it quickly changed to the housekeeping

861
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,240
Speaker 1: corner and the workshop corner. When the school I was working,

862
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: and I would go in with the second grade classes

863
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: every year and read books about segregation, Dr King and

864
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: the American South. I mean, that's why they will play

865
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: picture books to the second graders and alternate those with

866
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: um South Africa part time that Nelson Mandela mm hmm.

867
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: I've had now decades later, adults walk up to me

868
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: and remind me they remember when I taught them all

869
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: that in class. So I think I made a difference

870
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: in my small ways. Oh absolutely, absolutely, Yeah. I really

871
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: appreciate you sharing so much history I didn't know about

872
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: and reframing the history that I knew. But I also

873
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: love to ask you all about what you're working on

874
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: these days. So um, let's start with you. Look, what's

875
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: what are you getting into these days? Oh? Gosh, who

876
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: am I working? On right now. What are you doing

877
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 1: these days? You know, I've discovered TikTok after a while.

878
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: I've been working on that, sharing a lot of content there, um,

879
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: you know, and yeah, more of my mom's stories, kind

880
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: of stuff you don't hear about from the sol I

881
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: love it. Yeah, and then trying to interject a few

882
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 1: little things that I have as well. Um, you know,

883
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 1: I'm just we finished shooting a film, a little short documentary, um,

884
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: about a gentleman who every day he goes He's ninety

885
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: two years old and every day he goes the Evan

886
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: Pettish Bridge to pray for the state trooper that beat

887
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 1: him on bloody Sunday. Um. I'm working on a whole

888
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: diverse the equity inclusion training modules you know, that will

889
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: be a whole online platform, but that that incorporates my

890
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,439
Speaker 1: mom's story and in the various films now that I've

891
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 1: done and using those as kind of a training tools

892
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: as well. Um, you know, working on an Emmett til film.

893
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: That's been a long process that continues. You know, they

894
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: just got kind of gag with with the COVID and

895
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: so forth. I'm starting to yeah, okay, let's start, let's

896
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: go back and reevaluate that a little more and than another.

897
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: Now working on another season of our Uncomfortable Truth podcast,

898
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 1: so we're gonna cramped up for that. So yeah, you

899
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 1: know the usual, the usual, you know the usual. Well

900
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: that's a really exciting and what about you and John?

901
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: What you what I got in the fire these days? Well,

902
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,919
Speaker 1: I can't march anymore because my knees have given out,

903
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: but um, I can run my mouth pretty good. I

904
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: do a lot of public speaking. The Deltas had me

905
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,720
Speaker 1: out to Memphis the alumni chapter, and I was talking

906
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: out there and I just um. I was talking at

907
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: a Hampton Sydney University and um with Loki along with

908
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 1: me on this and showing video clips in Farmville, Virginia,

909
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 1: which was crucial to getting the schools integrated in Virginia

910
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: and even went into Brown versus board. I'm moving to

911
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: high school and um, I speak in local elementary schools,

912
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: you know, colleges and anybody that invites me. And if

913
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: I got transportation issues, they got to pay for my transportation.

914
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 1: Put me up and feed me somewhere, private home, five

915
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: star hotel either way. Yeah, run in my mouth is

916
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: my main thing. Now. I love that I'm going to

917
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: remember that for the rest of my life as long

918
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: as the brain cell still work. Cut me off and

919
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: they don't. Yeah, oh man, Well, um, any closing words

920
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 1: of hope for our listeners. Y'all have been at it

921
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: for a minute, creating beautiful art and sharing beautiful stories

922
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: to you know, keep this movement alive. But what's one

923
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: last thing you'd like people to know as they as

924
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: we part ways? Um, to give them the do something?

925
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 1: Get out there? Yeah? I feel that things things do

926
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 1: get better. People didn't believe slavery went in, but it did,

927
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: and I believe Jim Crow was gonna end, but it did. Um.

928
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: But it ended because you know, like the echo the

929
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: words of FAINTI low hammer. Uh, they were stick and

930
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: tired of being sick and tired. We we we gotta

931
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: keep pressing forward because the other side's not tired. Um.

932
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, how do people keep in touch with your work?

933
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: Find your work? Um? You know, continue to learn from

934
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 1: you on Obviously you know what I said before. We're

935
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: all we're on TikTok so Loki Malholland is it is

936
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: it a page a channel where they I'm really new

937
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 1: to TikTok. Also so yeah, I think a page but

938
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. But it's fire fire content. Please go

939
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 1: check it out. Yes, yeah, we know. We're on Instagram

940
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: and Facebook and stuff foundation with Mama's name on it. Yep,

941
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,800
Speaker 1: I was good. So if you go to our website

942
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: www dot the j t M Foundation dot org. Um.

943
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: I don't know why I put the www at the

944
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: beginning of that. That shows how one way I am now.

945
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I mean so the jt M Foundation dot

946
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: org um, and that's where we have h we have

947
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: scholarship programs there that we're doing. We've got obviously our films.

948
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: People can contribute. Please go check out the jt M

949
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: Foundation dot org to learn more. Follow Loki on TikTok

950
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Loki Mohammed at Loki Moholland and keep

951
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 1: up the fight. You know, they've been out here doing

952
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,919
Speaker 1: it for a minute, creating beautiful, our cham peutiful stories.

953
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: But we're gonna make our own new stories, carrying forward

954
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: the fight. But yeah, thank you, thank you for being here.

955
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: Thank you a yo, we are back. That was Joan

956
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 1: Maholland and her son Loki. That was quite a robust conversation.

957
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: You'll have there. Yeah. I tried not to get into

958
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: like specific like what was it light to meet megger ever,

959
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: but still kind of like understand more of just like

960
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: what lessons can be drawn from the work that they

961
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 1: have done. And so I hope that's been helpful to

962
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: everybody listening and thinking about your own role in movements,

963
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: the work that is still left to be done, etcetera.

964
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: I definitely feel like I got a lot of that. No,

965
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: you definitely did. Definitely did. And you'll make sure that

966
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: you'll check out that documentary so you can get a

967
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: more robust picture of her full biography and the things

968
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 1: that she did well I do. Oh, you know what,

969
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: we gotta throw out a congratulate sations Mariah, our homie,

970
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: the person who you've never heard who spends us the beats.

971
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: Joel brought a new bundle of joy. Dad's dad is

972
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: now Dad's dad times too. Congratulations Joel. He's not going

973
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: to hear this because he's probably like knee deep and

974
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 1: dirty diverse right now. But who's taken over? I think

975
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: it's Taylor taken over? A Taylor. You know, we know

976
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: you're new to this, Taylor, but we we gotta wrap

977
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: to close this out, So can you can you pick

978
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: through one of those instrumentals of mine and play something? Yeah, wait,

979
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: no reparation to get in and sitting in their bodies

980
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: on the line, get in jail the kit and fund

981
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: dement that. But right at the time they deep but

982
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: not the John no surprised. They's saying the times to

983
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: the best on the right and like they would have

984
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 1: set up but really they would have set up a

985
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't cross and burning like some terrorizing the neighbors of

986
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: what they hoods up. They really shook watching all the

987
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: people out they mobilized, looking back and them Okay, like

988
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: I know that guy, they don't even know to have

989
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: motherfucker's I know you're whack when the revolutions over exploded

990
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: like a nova. I just took a ride to Croker

991
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 1: and nobody pulled me over. I got the love Song

992
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 1: site and ain't nobody sober. You know my name dope night.

993
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 1: My mamma called me toga go and smoke up. It's

994
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: all legal. We all regal all ball. No such things

995
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: as small people, gun sticks, pots and pans were fought evil.

996
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: Now we got plots of land for a zero told

997
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: you not to dreams that it's all in your hand.

998
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: They told you not to lead to the followers. Stand now,

999
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: you can get a good job keeping all of your dreads,

1000
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: and we can party without caring. Go and call the fans.

1001
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: Everybody dapping on one having a fuss. Came a long

1002
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: damn way from the back of the bus, and we

1003
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: let in the white folks that we happen to trust,

1004
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 1: and everybody else can come, but as black as a fuck. Yeah,

1005
00:58:53,160 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: waiting a reparation, Oh knife, Frank, we are waiting on reparations. Peace.

1006
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: Listen to Waiting on Reparations on Apple Podcasts or wherever

1007
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: you get your podcast.