1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Quality times with Joseph Scott Morgan. Hi friends, this is 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: continuing coverage of the Nancy Guthrie case, and we're gonna 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: do a deep dive now as we begin to consider 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: some of the evidence that may have been collected and 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: maybe some of it that was not. I'm Josephcott Morgan 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: and this is Body Backs Brother Dave. We had a 7 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: rather healthy conversation I think in our first episode talking 8 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: about Nancy Guthrie, you know, kind of reflecting over all 9 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: of the stuff that's floating around out there relative to 10 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: this poor woman. 11 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: There's so much information, Joe, and you know, you and 12 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: I have covered the case since it began, and there 13 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 2: are a lot of different aspects to the case. In 14 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 2: the previous episode where we dealt with intruders in the house, 15 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: how long were they possibly and there is there a day? 16 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: Is it plural? 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 2: But there are other aspects of this case, Joe, that 18 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: are coming to the forefront, and in particular it's DNA. 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 2: And I think the part that always amazes me when 20 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 2: we talk about DNA is people assume wrongly that once 21 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: you have DNA, you've got the culprit. And granted you 22 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 2: might have something and you might have somebody, but unless 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: their DNA is in the system, meaning somebody's been arrested 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 2: or applied for a job that required it. I mean, 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: any number of ways that you get your DNA in 26 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: the system, but if it's not there, then you end 27 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: up with what we did at the very beginning of 28 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 2: this with DNA taking from the glove tested, put into codas, 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: came back with nothing. 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: I could see. I could see everybody getting all jacked 31 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: up over this CODIS submission, Okay, and I'm thinking, got 32 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: to tell you don't get too don't get too excited 33 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: about this, you know, whatever you do, don't you know, 34 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: don't go down this road where you think that it's 35 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: this is going to be the magic bullet. And guess 36 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: what the profile that they got, whatever, whatever the point 37 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 1: of origin of the thing was that was generated down 38 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: in Florida and then entered into the CODA system that 39 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,119 Speaker 1: the FBI controls, they didn't get a hit. And it's 40 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: just not surprising because you're you're your field is very limited. Okay. 41 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: You think about, you know, who is in the CODA system, 42 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: and you've got a collection of people that are associated 43 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: with a variety of different types of crimes and dependent 44 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: upon the jurisdiction, they're going to take samples of suspects 45 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: and people that have been convicted and all these sorts 46 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: of things. Well, your pool is kind of small, okay 47 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: from that perspective, and then you've got the other section 48 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: of CODIS. For folks that don't know, you have a 49 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: section that's it. Traditionally it has been referred to as 50 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: the forensic category. And what that means is that you've 51 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,679 Speaker 1: got unknown DNA that has been collected at a variety 52 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: of scenes, and this is kind of dumped into CODIS. 53 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: And what you look for that is if they develop 54 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 1: a pattern, well, if they develop a profile of that individual, 55 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: even though they might not know the name, they know 56 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: that with multiple depositions at different types of crime scenes, 57 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: you've developed a pattern. Here you know this person is 58 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: showing up here, here, here, here, and here. You just 59 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: don't have a name to go along with the individual. 60 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: So that's kind of how the categories break down. They 61 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: didn't get a hit on it, and so where we left, well, 62 00:03:54,840 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: we're left with our friends at Authorm. Now we'll get 63 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: back to Othram in just a minute, but we need 64 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: to go back and really consider Dave how the DNA 65 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: was collected. This is still kind of a mystery because 66 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: if you think about the house, correct me if I'm wrong, brother, 67 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: But they talk about there's multiple I think multiple contributors 68 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: inside of the house. We know, you know, everybody that 69 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: listens to true crime, has watches television shows. You know 70 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: that our standard line is that you expect to find 71 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: the occupant of the residents. You expect to find her 72 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: DNA there, right and anybody within her intimate circle. Intimate 73 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: circle can mean her immediate family, It can also mean housekeepers, 74 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: it can mean people that have kind of moved through 75 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: the space that worked there for her. And then you've 76 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: got these unknowns. But they're saying that there were like 77 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: multiple known different profiles that were in there. Am I correct? 78 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: That's my understanding of it so far, and that's what 79 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 2: is being tested further. I'm glad you mentioned that cotis 80 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 2: is not the end. Cotis is very you know, hey, man, 81 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 2: we're going to put it in there first just because 82 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: but you know, we've gone something that you mentioned about 83 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: the collection of DNA and it's not even known as 84 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: kind of as John Doe Jane do type stuff. We 85 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: don't know who it is, but we've got it over 86 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: here associated with X crime. And then we have another 87 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: crime over here, and we actually had a case and 88 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember which one it was, but it 89 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: started out with a John Doe warrant based on a 90 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: DNA profile that had been created from multiple crime scenes, 91 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: even though they didn't have the person matched to it yet, 92 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: but they knew that this person, the same person did 93 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: this crime, this crime, and this crime. You've got the 94 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 2: same DNA at all three places. So in this particular case, 95 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 2: Joe and I'm very curious as to where where it 96 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: goes because we've got the FBI, local police, the deputies, 97 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: the sheriff's office, but we've also got the FBI lab, 98 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: the Florida lab that pe mccounty uses and now author them, 99 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 2: and we have at least inside the home one one 100 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: sample that they the investigators have found that has multiple 101 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: contributors to this DNA. And my whole thought pattern here 102 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: is we don't know exactly what they have. Is it blood, 103 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 2: is it spit, It's just I guess some of us 104 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: get to I get confused. I'm going to say that 105 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: I get a little confused with talking about DNA because 106 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: I'm thinking blood, you know that. You I'm just thinking, 107 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 2: so there must have been a blood spot right here. 108 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 2: It's like, no, well, okay, maybe he hawked alugi over there, 109 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: you know that kind of thing. And it's like, really, 110 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: what are we dealing with here? I mean it, how 111 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: do you find it? 112 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: You can see it? Yeah, I wish it was that simple. Uh. 113 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: And and listen, I mean there there have been cases 114 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: out there where you can't have blood. You can literally 115 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: find uh DNA contained within uh within something someone has 116 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,559 Speaker 1: coughed up. You mentioned a loogie. Uh. There are people 117 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: that spit at scenes. Uh, you can there there been 118 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: you know, cases and I was asked to consult on 119 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: a case uh some time back where an individual had 120 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: left a deposition let's say it that way of feces 121 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: and a dry toilet. Oh come on now, Yeah, somebody 122 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: had broken into a house where the water had been 123 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: cut off and they'd been robbing the house and that 124 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. Anyway, and you can get that because 125 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, and you know, even with the fecal sample, 126 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: you know, there's a shedding. There's a shedding that takes 127 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: place the lining of the intestine, and many people do 128 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: in fact have even though it's it's it's not going 129 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: to be necessarily obvious to the human eye. But there 130 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: is blood deposition, you know, in in in feces as well. 131 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 2: There's something that you guys don't know. But every time 132 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: we talk about vecal matter on this program, I'm meaning 133 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: a Reese's peanut butter, Joe finds that out and does 134 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: it every time. 135 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: No, no, I'm not that cruel, but no, no. But 136 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's any there's those obvious things, and then 137 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: you know, you get into the world of touch DNA, 138 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: but you also have like for instance, I'll give you 139 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: I'll give you an example, and this is not touched DNA. 140 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: Let's use the example of someone has spit, okay, or 141 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: they've sweat. They've sweated, and that's going to be clear. 142 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily you you might not know it's on 143 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: the surface, but you are going to have to swab 144 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: that area. And so one of the ways that this 145 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: is collected is that with you have to take a 146 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: dry swab, okay, and this is a swab that is protected, 147 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: it's sealed. You know, think about like a cotton swab, right, like, yeah, 148 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: yeah it is, and you you you have to have 149 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: it that is packaged, Like it's not like it's not 150 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: like you're going to use the same swab over and 151 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 1: over again. It's like once the swab is used, you 152 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: collect it and then it goes back to the lab. 153 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: Do you have to document like I got this swab, 154 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: it's number three hundred and fifty eight. 155 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: Hell to the yeah, yes, yes, yes, And that's one 156 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: of the that's one of kind of the tedious things 157 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: that you do at scenes like every time. Like say, 158 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: for instance, if you're going to swab a specific area, 159 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: that swab will be will have a number or an 160 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: identifier with it, and also it will concurrently have a location, 161 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: like where was this retrieved from? Like you can say, okay, 162 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: like I'm sitting here at my desk, I can say 163 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: that it's from the left corner of my desk. Le's 164 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: not sufficient. I have say that it is the left 165 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: corner of my desk, but it's actually beneath the desk, okay, 166 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: the lip of the desk. I can't just say the 167 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: left corner of my desk because both of these areas. 168 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: Think about if you're sitting at a table right now, 169 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: put your hand on the table on the edge, and 170 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: you think about, well, if I contact the underside of 171 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: my desk, that's completely different than the top side where 172 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: I'm placing my thumb. Okay, So you and then if 173 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: you're talking about your hand going under it, well you've 174 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: got four points of contact just with your fingers there 175 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: and your finger pads, and then you know your hand. 176 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: Do you touch the heel of your hand? And I'm 177 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: talking about just this is just one example of grabbing 178 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: the edge of the table. All right, maybe you're lifting 179 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: yourself up. Remember how we talked about previously about getting 180 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: in and out of a car. Things you don't think about, 181 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: all right, So you take you take a bit of 182 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: a bit of like it's sterile water, Okay, that you 183 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: it's distilled water, and it's sterile, and you have to 184 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: put one droplet of this distilled water onto the surface 185 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: of the swab that you're going to use, Okay, and 186 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: then you take it and you swab that area. Once 187 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: that area is swabbed, that swab itself goes into a container, 188 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: so it is contained, and that swab is is stand alone, 189 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: a standalone bit of evidence. So if they do find 190 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: a profile there, I'm really getting into the weeds here. 191 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: But if they do find a profile here, that profile 192 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: has to be specifically identified that comes back to the 193 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: corner of that table. Is it on the top side 194 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: of the bottom side. And so when this goes to court, 195 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: remember how I talked about the twelve jurors in our classroom, right, 196 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: So when it goes to court, the expert that gets 197 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: up on the stand, first off, you will have had 198 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: the crime scene tech, and the crime scene tech will 199 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: not be doesn't wear the white lab coat. They're not 200 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: there to talk about, you know, building out the profile. 201 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: You will have to have them testify to the fact 202 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: that they collected it there, all right. Phil mice and 203 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: labratts is what we call them at Jack State. So 204 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: I've got my kids that are the phil mice that 205 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: go out and actually collect evidence. Well, that individual has 206 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: to get on the stand and say, you know, agent Smith, 207 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: where did you get this from? Well, I got it 208 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: from this position on the desk, and when did you 209 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: submit it? We refer to my report. I submitted it, 210 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: you know here, and this is the nomenclature that it has, 211 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: and it was sent to the lab where you know 212 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: technician or laboratory scientists. Jones picked it up well to 213 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: follow up with that laboratory, you know, technician Jones has 214 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: to get on stand and say, okay, so I processed, 215 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: I processed Agent Smith's swab that they collected, and this 216 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: is a profile we built out. You see how tedious 217 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: this is, but it's so very exacting day and it 218 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: has to be that way because with those movements, with 219 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: every movement that takes place at Missus Guthrie's house, there 220 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: are points of contact, and from those points of contact, 221 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: we don't need to visualize necessarily the individual moving through 222 00:13:55,040 --> 00:14:01,119 Speaker 1: the space. We can scientifically and by the way, more importantly, 223 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: numerically quantify and demonstrate that they were in this space, 224 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: this space, this space, this space, in this space within 225 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: her residence and she's missing. Okay, So it's up to 226 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: now that the forensics people cannot explain why the person 227 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: was in the house. That's not what we do. Do. 228 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: Not confuse what is done in the lab with explanation 229 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: as to the individual being there. You're not going to 230 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: get that from a forensic scientist. That's just not that's 231 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: not how they roll. Okay. It is in fact up 232 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: to the detectives, you know, that are kind of piecing 233 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: together timeline and all that stuff. They'll integrate that into 234 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: the packet and then the prosecutor has to you know, 235 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: hold forth on it. Hopefully they're sufficient to the task, 236 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: because it gets very very complex looking at this poor 237 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: woman's home, and you know, going back to what we 238 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: had said earlier about the amount of time that is 239 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: spent within this environment, I think that it's plausible that 240 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: something could have been left behind at this point in time. 241 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: Though we don't know what the nature of this DNA 242 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: that has been left behind, because if it's touched DNA, 243 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: that means that that's coming from dead skin cells. And 244 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: that's only a partial, a partial of a strand okay, 245 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: because it's well, it's dead skin cells. You know, it's 246 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: degraded to a certain extent. 247 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: Can you explain this a little bit, Joe, Yeah, sure, DNA? 248 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: What is touch DNA? I mean, we got gloves. The 249 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 2: guy that in this particular case, Nancy's pointed out guys 250 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: and gloves, he's reaching up to his mouth for the 251 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: mouth flashlight thing. Maybe he's rubbing an eyebrow, he's itching, 252 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: you know something, and he gets on the gloves. Then 253 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 2: when the suspect goes in the house, touching the door, 254 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: the door knob and all of that. I'm assuming that's 255 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: what we're talking about. 256 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: With No, we're not. There's two separate things. I'm glad 257 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: you brought this up and clear it up. Man. Here's 258 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: why if okay, even though let's just say, you know, 259 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: with the example of the light, okay, from the mouth, 260 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: if you grab that out of your mouth and you've 261 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: got spittle on on on this thing, which you would, 262 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: and that transfers to gloves, that is not even though 263 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: if you touch the surface and yet there's touching, it's 264 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: tactile that goes on. That does not translate into being 265 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: touched DNA. That's transfer of DNA rich material. So it's 266 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: not degraded. I'm using degraded very broadly here. So just 267 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: understand that with touch DNA, what they're saying is, and 268 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: I heard somebody had used this term. I found this 269 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: quite fascinating. Maybe maybe it'll help people, I don't know. 270 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: They describe touch DNA as DNA confetti, and I found 271 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: that kind of interesting because yeah, and what they mean 272 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: is like you're sloughing skin cells, and skin cells obviously 273 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: contain DNA, but they're dead, so there's a different way 274 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: of processing touch DNA as opposed to DNA rich material 275 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: like a droplet of blood, saliva, feces semen sweat any 276 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: of that or a piece of tissue, Okay, which does happen? 277 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: You know, that's different than the touch DNA. So if 278 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: what they're taught talking about with deposition here is it 279 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: saliva you know from the you know what everybody's talking 280 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: about right now, that has been transferred over to a 281 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: glove or is it they didn't put enough jurgins on. Okay, 282 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: And they've got dry skin cells that are falling off, 283 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: and all of the sleptest stuff day today today today, 284 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: I mean it goes on like if you could go 285 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: like into your bedroom and even though you've got fresh sheets, 286 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: your sheets are covered with dead skin cells. That really 287 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: adds a creep factor state in a hotel, doesn't it. Yeah? Okay, 288 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: because everywhere you touch, everywhere, you know, all the stuff 289 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: is contacting, you know, in every single environment. And so 290 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: it's not surprising that they found multiple profiles. It's just 291 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: you know, what's the source of it, how rich was it? 292 00:18:54,800 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: And also profiles the type of evidence. DNA evidence tells 293 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: you a lot about the actions of the person. Okay, 294 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: it's one thing to passively have. I don't know, I'll 295 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: use the term again, DNA confetti, where you've got dead 296 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: skin cells just kind of floating about, you know whatnot. 297 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: I always think about DNA confetti. It's like, you know, 298 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: in the summertime, when the sunlight's coming through and you 299 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: see the dust particles, you know, kind of dancing around 300 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: in the sunlight beams. I'm thinking that as opposed to, 301 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, if you've got deposition of blood, well, what 302 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: was going on here? What was the action that caused 303 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: somebody to spontaneously deposit blood? They got a hole in 304 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: their body? Are they coughing up blood? Is there an 305 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,239 Speaker 1: esophageal versee that they've blown out in there, you know, 306 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: in their esophagus, Which is the horrible stories that we 307 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: can talk about later on, you know, is it is 308 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: it sweat? You know, they're wiping their brow and they're 309 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: smearing it everywhere. And again, you know, this goes to 310 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: it goes to trying to understan and what the movements 311 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: of both the victim and potential perpetrator work to. You 312 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: and I both have dogs. Okay, Now we walk outside 313 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: and we tracked through dog pooh. Okay. And the reason 314 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: I know this is that this happened recently. My precious 315 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: granddaughter was over at my house. Which you know, if 316 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: I had both my grandbabies here all the time, I'd 317 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: be even happier than I am right now. But so 318 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: she she went outside and stepped in some of Kevin's deposition, 319 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: and I'll say my labrador walked back in the house, 320 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: looked at her brother and said, wow, something smells. He 321 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: walks over. He walks over and steps in the deposition 322 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: that she left behind on my hardwood floors. Now it's 323 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: transferred to him, and then he gets it on Gammy 324 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: and Papa's runner in the hallway, our carpet. It was 325 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: a lovely day. But do you see how that you 326 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: know that kind of that's a really kind of over 327 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: the top example, but it is the same. It is 328 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: the same kind of principle here. It goes back to 329 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: the card. 330 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you really could have somebody with no real 331 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: connection to this house whatsoever, having I could actually say, Joe, 332 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 2: I've never even been inside the woman's house. But I 333 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,479 Speaker 2: shook hands with the cop that I hadn't seen in 334 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 2: ten years, and he was in the scene and it 335 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 2: wasn't all locked up at the time, and while he 336 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 2: was there, he didn't have gloves on. Yeah, so now 337 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 2: he has touched he put me at the scene of 338 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: the crime, and I got a alibi. 339 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, theoretically it could. It could transpire that way. And 340 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: you know, our our supposition is that every time a 341 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: criminal or people walk working the scene. If like, if 342 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: I leave my house and I'm a crime scene investigator 343 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: and I get into my vehicle, I'm bringing a bit 344 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: of my house with me. We all do no matter 345 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: where you go, and you're going to leave some of 346 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: that behind. If you go to the grocery market, you're 347 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: going to take some of you into the store. Any 348 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: can you handle on the shelf you're touching that. And 349 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: also is it possible, and this is a question a 350 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: lawyer would ask, is it possible that if you picked 351 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: up a can of student tomatoes in my little market 352 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: that I go to that someone else's touch, could I 353 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: transferred their DNA onto my hands? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, as plausible. 354 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it is within the realm possibility because it's 355 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: very it's very fragile, but it's it will contact the 356 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: surface and you can't try I just don't know how 357 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: much of a deposition you would get. So theoretically, yeah, 358 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: it is possible. 359 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: But still there would still be an expectation that that's 360 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 2: not all you would find. I mean, if you had that, 361 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: that is one thing, but you would expect over a 362 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: crime scene to find more than just this one littles back. 363 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And how much time are you going to 364 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: take to do this? And here's here's the rub, as 365 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: the Bard would say, the rub is how thoroughly did 366 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: you go through the house the first time. I'm going 367 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: to let that hang in the air just for a 368 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: second and then you release it. Oh and now Eert 369 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: is going to show up the Evidence response team from 370 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: the FBI. What are they going to do inside of 371 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: the environment? Are they going to go in and do 372 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: their own collection, you know, after the fact. Has it 373 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: been compromised? Are they you know? And you're thinking, oh, 374 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: I know what they'll do. They'll go and look in 375 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: different places. Okay, that's possible. They can look in different places. 376 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: If they look in these different places, they turn out 377 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: to not be different. And the originals have they compromised 378 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: it in any way? Is it degraded in any way? 379 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: And these are the problems. You know, I'm a worry 380 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: ward anyway, and so I'm looking at this and I'm 381 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: thinking about problems down the line from not just a 382 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: scientific standpoint, but from a prosecutorial standpoint. And not that 383 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: I'm a prosecutor, but if a prosecutor came to me 384 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: and said, is there a problem with this? I would 385 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: say not yeah, but hell yeah, there's a problem with this, 386 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: because again we go back to you know, too many 387 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup. And that's why 388 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: that's why, you know, I use these I use these terms, 389 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: you know, and particularly with like Guthrie, you know, I'm 390 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 1: thinking this should be treated as a surgical suite where 391 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: you have you have a you know, we've heard the 392 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: term evidence custodian, which generally applies to the person that 393 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: controls the evidence, like that's in all of the evidence 394 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: lockers and all that stuff. You know, at a back 395 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: of the police station or crime lab. There should be 396 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: and they wouldn't be called this way. It'd probably be 397 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: a crom scene manager. But you need to have a 398 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: crom scene custodian and this person overlords who's going to 399 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: come in and out and that should be the chief, 400 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: the lead detective in the case, and also the senior 401 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: crim scene investigator. So this is how it plays out. 402 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: There is a very very narrow limited group of people 403 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: that should walk on to any crime scene. Not your 404 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 1: brother in law, not your sister in law, not your 405 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: curious neighbor that wants to come out. It should only 406 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: be not the sheriff. You hear what I'm saying. Not 407 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: the sheriff. I don't care if he's the high sheriff. 408 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: I don't care if the sack which is senior agent 409 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: in charge for the FBI for Tucson or Phoenix, shows up. 410 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: They should not come onto the crime scene. That's not 411 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: their purview. You have specific people that are trained to 412 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: process a crom scene and that's all that should go. 413 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: And that's why you hire them. That's why you pay 414 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: all the money to train them. They should be trained 415 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: up to the point where they know what to do, 416 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: and you cut them loose and let them do their job. 417 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: But what it comes down to is accountability. Well, are 418 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: you going to account for all of the fingers in 419 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: the proverbial pot of soup? The fact that the Guthrie 420 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: case has taken place in the desert or in the 421 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: desert area is not lost on me. And and here's 422 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: why I think it's a great It's got kind of 423 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: a meaning, an underlying meaning or or visual visual element 424 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 1: to it. 425 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: From me. 426 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: You think about being lost in the desert, and everything 427 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: looks the same to a certain degree. It's not like 428 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: being out in the ocean. But still, I guess the 429 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: big question, Dave, is where do we go from here? Ah? 430 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: And it's not all gloom and doom on my part. 431 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: I'm holding out hope that we'll have answers from a 432 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: scientific standpoint. Now, I cannot address on any level Nancy 433 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: Guthrie's status. Okay, that's that's not what my comments are 434 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: about here. I have my own thoughts about that, and 435 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: we can talk about that at another time. However, I 436 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: think that that for us, you know, having this chat, 437 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: that's my brit friends like to say, having a chin 438 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: wag about it. 439 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: It's crazy, though, Joe, that as you look at this 440 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: where we have we've got detectives from different departments. We've 441 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: got the FBI, we've got the Sheriff's Department, We've got 442 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: three different labs, the FBI, Florida and AUTHORM. It doesn't 443 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: sound like it's the best organization possible. That the it 444 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: doesn't seem to me like we have a direct line 445 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 2: of communication and consistent because they're all different. And I 446 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: would think in an investigation of this sort that there 447 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 2: has to be there has to be a line to follow. 448 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: Yea, you exert. Yeah, I got to hang on one second. 449 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: You you drop some knowledge on me. I really won't 450 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: want to hear hear you say this because it was 451 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: striking to me for me personally, and particularly the way 452 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: you can tell it. The story about that has surfaced 453 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: in the last couple of days. I think about the 454 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: found bloody glove and the and the rock. Can you 455 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: kind of give us a little insight and again this 456 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: kind of gives you, for me broad view, Uh, it 457 00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: gives us kind of an idea of where we are 458 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: are in the situation. 459 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: Well, in covering this case, many of us have watched 460 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 2: between the sheriff who seems to be infatuated with the 461 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 2: camera and loves to say things that are not right 462 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 2: and then thinks it's okay to just say, well, if 463 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 2: I say the wrong thing, it's because I made a mistake, 464 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 2: Like that's okay to do and we have the FBI. 465 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 2: Many of us have said, you know, back away your 466 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: local talent and let's let the experts get in here 467 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 2: and do their job. Because we have a couple from Tucson, 468 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 2: Arizona that finds what appears to be a bloody glove 469 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 2: less than a mile from Nancy Guthrie's home. Now, as 470 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 2: you know, listening to this show, you've heard Joe and 471 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: I talked about this guy. I've asked him, why don't 472 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: you call something blood when you know it's blood? And 473 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: Joe will say, because we don't know it's blood until 474 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 2: it's been tested. It could be a lot of things 475 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 2: that look like blood. So when a regular person like 476 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 2: you and me finds a bloody glove, we're going with 477 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 2: what we observe it to be and what we think 478 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: it is. But still, if you call the FBI, because 479 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: if you're living in Tucson right now, all these numbers 480 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 2: are everywhere, you know, for the FBI, call this for 481 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 2: Sherif's burm, I call this for you know, they're everywhere. 482 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: So these local Tucson heights find what appears to be 483 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: a bloody glove less than a mile from Nancy Guthrie's house, 484 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 2: and they call the FBI, Hey just found this bloody glove, 485 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 2: Holy moly, and the FBI puts them on hold, gives 486 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 2: them the run around, don't know if we can get 487 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: out there and pick it up, don't yeah, I mean 488 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 2: they're actually saying this to somebody, a bloody glove less 489 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: than a mile from Nancy Guthrie's home, and the FBI 490 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: is saying, I don't know if we can get out 491 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 2: there and call it. So they get blown off a 492 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 2: little bit. They call the sheriff's department, and this time 493 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: there's a little more interest, but nobody seems like they're 494 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: in a hurry to get out there. So finally this 495 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: couple who found again I'm going to repeat this, what 496 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 2: appears to be a bloody glove next to bloody rock 497 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: less than a mile from Nancy Guthrie's house. 498 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: They find. 499 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 2: This couple finally calls nine to one one Joe, and 500 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: that's when they finally get results. Somebody shows up, I 501 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: mean right away, two detectives show up. But it took them, 502 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 2: this couple three different phone calls before they could get 503 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 2: somebody to actually treat it with seriousness. That is really 504 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 2: frustrating for those of us who have been spending a 505 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 2: lot of time trying to cover this story in such 506 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: a way that we're look, man, we're I'm not knocking 507 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: what anybody does, you know, in terms of how they 508 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: go about their day making money. However you can, whether 509 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: it's you know, on TikTok or whatever, I don't care. 510 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: I mean, go for it, you know. But there are 511 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 2: some of us who actually have devoted our lives to broadcasting, 512 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: to forensics, to crime. We've devoted the time necessary to 513 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 2: weed out the garbage from the truth. And yet we 514 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: get a story like this, Yeah that nobody, you know, 515 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: the FBI shares for nobody wanted to collect up a 516 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 2: bloody possible bloody glove. 517 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: Come on, Joe. It kind of reinforces a narrative, doesn't it. Yes, 518 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: it does. Yeah, And that's that's very sad. And here 519 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: here's one other thing, uh, you know, when you're looking 520 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: at and this is just the example that we know 521 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: of that's being reported right now, and that's that story 522 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: I think is actually coming from local Tucson uh Tucson 523 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: area uh television uh channel hang on, Oh yeah, k 524 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: v o A is is the you know where that 525 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: story actually originated. From. I think here's I got a 526 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: question for you. Why And I know you said the 527 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 1: numbers are up, but why is it that? Mhm? What'd 528 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: you call them to Tucson Nights? 529 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 2: So I don't know what their names are, you know, 530 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 2: people who live there. 531 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to nail it down. Why would what 532 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: would a couple from Tucson, why would their first inclination 533 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: be called FBI? I mean, I don't know. I mean, 534 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: is this getting into the zeitgeist because you you know, 535 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: is it surrounding there is a zeitgeist that's that's you know, 536 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: been created here, you know, because of all this. 537 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: I've been reading a lot of local stuff in Tucson. Yeah, 538 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 2: and a lot of people are pretty embarrassed by their sheriff. 539 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 2: And that's why I think it came about. 540 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so their their first inclination is called the FBI. Well, 541 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: you know, you put your number out there, talking to 542 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: you feeds, you know, you need to be responsive. And 543 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: this was this was only a few days in. I mean, 544 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: this is not like something that happened weeks later. So 545 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: there was already there was always something that there was 546 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: already something floating through the air. I think you know, 547 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: but you know, this is just one of the examples 548 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: that you know, hurdles and listen, we're going to find 549 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: out we'll hear more relative to these little, you know, 550 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: kind of dramas that go on. It has you have 551 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: to have them because the media feeds off of that. 552 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: They love the drama of it. But it still doesn't 553 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: get us necessarily closer to h Nancy Guthrie. You're still 554 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: left watching a Punch and Judy show on the side, 555 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: and this woman is still out there. I think probably forensically, 556 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm I'm hopeful, and of course I'm very partial. I'm 557 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: very hopeful that David and Kristen Middleman at Authroam Labs 558 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: will will be an answer to this regarding investigative genetic genealogy, 559 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: and if for no other reason, I think one of 560 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: the things I'm excited about is that a lot of 561 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 1: people that didn't know anything about IgG as a result 562 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: of this case, people are studying it now, they're understanding it. 563 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: And the more more eyes you get on this technology, 564 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: you begin to kind of, you know, get a grip on, 565 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, what we have as potential crime solving tools, 566 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, and I'm talking, I'm not talking about people 567 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 1: that sit around and create true crome. Uh, you know 568 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: copy every day. I'm talking about people, you know, average 569 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: person walking down the street. Now, they're really vested in it. 570 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: I think that if they can take in you know, 571 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: you and I've covered the cases day where we have 572 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: greatly degraded DNA, the AUTHORAM has gotten their hands on 573 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: and they you know, I love to use term conjured. 574 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: They literally conjure somebody up out of this and it's 575 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: not a facsimile. It's like something that's real, you know. 576 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: They breathe life back into it, even with ages old DNA. 577 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: This is this fresh sample, Bubba. You know, this is 578 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: fresh sample we're talking about. This is not you know, 579 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: like our woman in the well case. This is not 580 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: something that happened in in the you know, immediately following 581 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: World War One. All right, this is actually something that 582 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: is fresh. I'm hopeful as well about the digital evidence 583 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: that they've collected, and we still don't know a lot, 584 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: you know, everything that might be at play here. That 585 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: the Google drop was kind of interesting about whoever it 586 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: was that was doing the searches, which is something again, 587 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: tech is not necessarily that kind of tech is not 588 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: necessarily my Bailey Wick. But the fact that you've got 589 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: somebody that's seeking out you know. 590 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: Her Nancy Guthrie's address in Savannah Guthrie's income. 591 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and again and they live in Tucson, Joe. 592 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, the person that did this search lived in Tucson, 593 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 2: Arizona and did this search back in June or July. 594 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 2: That to me, I'm gonna be honest, man, if you 595 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 2: didn't do it, if that person didn't do it, I 596 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 2: want to know why were you looking? 597 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, and look, it's it's I'm 598 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: curious as to what people's salaries are. But you know 599 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: the thing about it is is that many times I'd 600 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: be very curious to know if there if there had 601 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 1: been like a contract renegotiation or anything like this, because 602 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: these damn agents that are out there, let me tell 603 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: you what they like to do, and all of our 604 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: friends that don't know how the guts of this kind 605 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: of works. They will take someone like a Savannah Guthrie, Okay, 606 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: and if they renegotiate a contract, you'll actually see you'll 607 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: actually see the details of their contract renegotiation in what 608 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: they call industry industry magazines like Variety, Hollywood Reporter, they'll 609 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: actually put that up there. Well, the agents do that, 610 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: and the reason they do it is like, hey, look 611 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 1: what I got for her, Look what I got for him. 612 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: This is how much money they're making now. And that's 613 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 1: like blood and water. That's why I go back to 614 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: to you know somebody that you know, other people we 615 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: talked about, you know, everybody in all these other platforms 616 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: in you know, the mainstream media out there, that they've 617 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: been kind of joining hands over this whole thing. Again. 618 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: This is kind of one of those points points along 619 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: the spectrum here where it's like, oh, you know, I 620 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: don't know if I want my information out there. You know, 621 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of chilling. I've gotten my you know, I've 622 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: got an elderly parent. You know, all the money in 623 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 1: the world is not necessarily going to protect you from evil. Okay, 624 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: And I know this, I know this in my heart 625 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: of hearts. Whoever has taken her has a completely black heart, 626 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: because I cannot imagine in what universe someone would want 627 00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: to snatch an infirm, elderly woman from her home who 628 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: by all descriptors, doesn't hurt anybody, and as kind as 629 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,959 Speaker 1: a day is long, I don't understand it, but there's 630 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: many things I don't understand. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 631 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: this is body Backs.